حوار رفعت سلام| مجلة الرافد| أحمد سراج
TRANSCRIPT
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LG GQNG S aQ YdG OM dG Y Va hCG CG ;S aQ TH LJ Gg ,G kT EG Lj CG ,gZh SjQh ach eGQh dOHh dSQ Ld EG IYdG g Y NCG h dG jsdG Od ,jQOEG Sj Y GQcO
.dG JdG Gd
a ;YdG bW e OaCG LG CG c JLd d AGdG Z LJ EG f IJa ,MCG ZCG Seb HW GP eCG ,OSCGh HCG ,MGh oH GP jdG JGQb Ea ;G kT Lj M YdG Y J (jdG) dGh dGh
.HjEG H ,LJ e g e S LJ jOdG LdG fEa YdG LJ eCG ,e g c IQdG X AGQh eh ,edG dG LJ zjRfdG{ J CG Jh ,jdG
.dG Y j dG
GQNG LG Y Va YdG CG c AGd LJ a ;AGdG ie Y ie Y KGG Hd kL j
:dG jdG KGG SDe g TH .1
.ShdG dG jdG KGG SDe g ac .2
.fdG dG dG KGG SDe eGQh dOH .3
.eY HhQhCGh fdG
SjQh "cje fe Y ka dP jdG KGG gZh fedh
.eY ffEG adGh JaK
G - S aQ YdG Va Gg - HdGh jG jdG KGG EG Q EG LdG S aQ LG Y EG ,dG aK jdG KGG
.dGh dG
;JGP YGHEG pidG gL G J dH Hh ,UCG d zGHEG{ a ,YGHEG pic - LdG - j CG LdG - jT a EG dG da ,e xf EG h ,gL a b j - jh ,b hCG gCG H d f O zjdG{ g eJ Y G g LG cCG eh ,QdG EG J Y dH -HdG JLJ -zjdG{ UdG
!zjdG{ Y J dG
U LJ dG LJ CG j e gh hCG jdG SGQdG LJ CT ,e zke{ U LJ fEG ; ke OcCG dG J :dG zjT{`d fG UdG dP ,gAGQh ah QdG H edG dG ,OSCGh HCG H FdG QOdG OedG SMCd SDj dG dG G dP dG Z YjEG Jh ,jdG QdGh
.dEG ... dG YJ jQdG
J gMh LCG dH aa ,dG gh pi CG J M Ld dG LJ J CG a .dG gL gh H ,e ,IJa d ,U vjd
?PEG b a ,T
dG LG dZ CG G J dG LJ CG cQj dG d
Jh ;iNCG LJ jC ke Ije LdG J UN f e SM ,LCG dG J SM ;iNCG SdGh Gh dG SMh
.ZdG idG agdGh
Hc YdG GQb EG bCG GQb fEG LJ zGQOEG{ Y ka .dG d
.e piedG pib kAGHG dG dG
piYdG kAGHG J dG dG LJ SGdG H ,LCG K Sh e CG j e gh .dG EG kUh ,d ,HGH ,dG SdG GH LG j dG UH ,JGQH ,FH Gd dG dG hj CG pib ;jdGh
.GP hCG YdG
Lj dG Yd LG SG JCj K e xd LJ d dG La ;d Ije aH WMEGh LJ fEG ;a MhQ ,dG g oH AGS ,NBG eR GQdGh ;dG UG gH hCG ,edG fGh ,FNh ,G jdG ,LJ J dG Yd UG ,baBGh ,FbOh ,jdG H OHCGh
.IG aVEGh h ,dGh edG dP f VCG Gg f VCG ,g WG GQdG N JSh JJh JM ,YdG Ve C ;G cQeh jdGh JGdG dP c c dG f SG e
.G dPh adG Jh edG
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j a ,SGh WMEG g hHh ,dG OHCH aGh LJ LG
.FG Zh FG
:TCG IY WMEG g J Gdh NdG H piJ dG bdG eG IdG{ U Y AGS ,YdG Y EG ,(Qd dH e dCe gh) zJGdG h .jdG Hd dG OHCG U hCG d zedG jdG YCG{ c ee - ee IY g ,ac
.hCG dG dG He pib - IMGh
e Y j b dG dG d UdG c ,UG IAVEG j ,jQSCG hCG jQdG hCG jdG MEGh ;gZ hCG ,RedGh YCG ASCG hCG G eGdG jdG Vj
.dH UG EG ddG e QdG j dH Mj dG jG dGh dG dG
.LCG YdG
YdG H kfi j EG ,LG d a ; vh vjTh vaK ,fh dG eG Y Yjh ,Qd ej e
.de LQH ,LCG dG
hCG ,nfGjO H aG kFGO LJCG fEG piLDhCG a ;HdG e e hM Y j ,LdG piLCG e jdG HdG
.G kHCG dP
Z f Lh ,2006h 2001 eY Hh ,FGH OLd ,jdG HdG Y QOb
h .ShCG dG AfCG dch G kje CG - edG b YCG fCGh - ke j e dP ;K zpia{ H hdG J fCG jdG YCG LJ dG EG aO.GdG J N h ,dOd edG GjO LGeh Hc e fG EG eh Y M ,(2007) zAG Y j M{
.eGd edG jdG YCG Y
f dP c dOH LJ a M G pijdG bdG dP :SSCG ed ,(ec GS HQCG) FGH Y N - fCG :H cGh dOH QTC ec LJ - Qe hH adH bY CG ZQ ,HdG aK EG jQJh eR Y GP fdG ,hdG YaQ e ,edG e fb f ,Y J H , kjZ G keCG c e gh ec LJ f CG d a ,G dP uSDG - jdG dOH YC fCe Gg GW - c dG jdG KGd dG g fdG dG CG UNh ?edG hCG piH ,HdG aK LCG fdG FGGh c HdG GdG H
?fJh Gh
dG LdG QGe c ,bdG f h kMh GN e b pib e b J ,LCG dG dG e piedG - Sh ,QGG jGH Y Me H dOH Uf e piedG - e xM EG
.ic Ife
dOH LJ CG YCG c ,dH L oJ eh ,edG dYC J HdG kd YGHEG f ie Y j d ;dOH KGM Y G kJh kNh kcJh fGjO Y LdG cdG a Y cQ piH LdG h ,zdG QgRCG{ LdG g H eh ,UdG ee fdG W QUCG dG LdG J e fehQ L adG Qb g IKCe LJ AL ,HQCG eR e f Y IHh fehdG g g
!YdG
e L b c LdG AdG pibh W ,G dOH YCG e H ,zedG YCG{ EG piUC ,IOe dG J M ,Uf e d ZEG Fb hCG ,jdG zjdG{ EG J QgRCG{ W MG Z jGdG H b eh ,FSQh Je Y ka ,zdG
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EG W e FdG Uf Y GJ e dG e f EG LH piUh ;iNCG.LdG YCG kFGO aG Z bdGh
jDhQ e JCJ dG dOH KGM fEG ,jd G kce jG L eh ,d Gg Vhh jG fEG YT a ,KGG e dOH cG bh ,dG dG gh .JQGeh fEG V Y Yh ,gGdG ,UG dG b YdG Vh EG dh ,WVh ,gG JbH
.QdGh dG Mhd OHEGh OG G sYh ,dG zdG{ dOH cG d OCG be Z Ija IQH ah
.dG
c ,HdG JLJ IAGb CGH e J J ,e e g CG kFGO MCG pibJh ,IjdG H Y G jGdG - QOCG cCG .H YSG LJ fc ,G J jCG - .fSCG kdRh keQ fCc
,edG dOH YC LJ e h .edG eGQ YCG LJ J CG Qb
H fd JGQjR N - CGH ,Gg YCG QOe - Gh G ,jhGhO e fl W ,fdG eGQ Y och ,edG YCG e iNCG Wh j M EG .dEG ... jdGh JGdG JS
.dG LG LM Y
NCJCG dOH IAGb e fG Mh.dYCG LJ AdG
dYCG LJ AS dG cG ,g j dG ,LG WH fEG ,HdG EG f e piedG agdGh SG EG
.OSG Y Y T
,eGH j AT pic GL fCG YCG a ,eRdG bdGh dH hQUCGh GMG jd - keY HhQhCGh - fa Fdh ,FdG GO M jT piH ,JMeh ,FSQh ,IQG Z
!QdG Y zT{h SQG eGQ SGc Y QdG d j c dG - jOGYEG MG N - gf h ,JdH dG LGdG a JSGe Y ka ,fdG EG LJh dGh ,fa gCG EG Gh Y e J CG H ,g fCGh JH J
.Ff W dM HhQhCGh OCG LM Y J OGe - b c - fEG EG kL LJ EG piS h ,LG
.HdG
fdG T KCG KGM YT ac LdG e dG gh ,dG T h LJ ,fdG hCG jEG AGS ,d ec WMEG hCG AcG H ,d pic IOe
.IjdG HH
Y dG d ac H AL Y H HGh ,fWdH G dG dG e dG Nh ,jdG ZdG.ffdG edH L b piH ,dG
M c ,WSCG e piedH b d C dHCG J Y a dG IdG ,jQJ Fbh e pieJh ;adH piNCG ,zIHGdG QfG { Ib M c
?KGM S Gg J a
,LfEG d IQSCG ac Lj HSa ,dN e iNCG jDhQ d piH J kUNh) jQGdGh WSCd pigG FbdGh GMCG e G eGdG IcGP e HQdG dG Jh ,idG
.
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AGT id e Z c Q (NQDG dH ke c ac d ;dG ,gGQ CG jQSCG CG fc jQJ ,bGdG gL ;gG Y d piH ,JGP
.IGh IQSCG gLh jQdG
jQdG EG cCG AGS - AGQdG EG Oj a Gg b d hCG ,g d - IQSCG CG BG j e f Y ,VG/zAGQdG{ ;G e FGW id jG JM fEG QG UH d piH .Ob aCG Y kH ;c OGeG Y jQdG a TdG G bQG j fEG j fC) hUj hCG NQDG j g zedG{ Ggh ,(edG piH ,G G piS Y - g e .j c e dG zIHGdG QfG { dO J - aK jdG KGG QQ oO iMEG L zcjEG{ Ib CT fCT ,G dG zKGG{ bdG J .dEG ... zjG{h d M dG g IQSCGh jQdG e IOY :dG jT beG fe piLCG e ,AJh J If piH ,AGQdG EG dG gG dP ,fEG piGh gGdG Jh jQdG jdG pieGY a KDJ AGdG CT ,J jT .aGG LJ EG Ob e gh ,IdG hP QdG Geh Ge LdG IOYEG K ,QTCG jEG ,SSCG dG d e d pic bW T Cc ,AfG H ,fdGh
.LJ Y JCJ h , oJ
AGS edG - adG JSDa !.. H kFGO piJ - gZ hCG LdG O iS g H ,Ofi QJ H ,N
.JGdG adH QGSG dG g QUCG dG ka
k oc Qd ,zdG c dCG{ S QGUEG iS g hCG IOfi N H kY pJ QNG Qe g a !cCG ,LG dG ?jCG EGh ?QGUEG jdhCGh LGh dG edG hG cCG g e M piH OGa ,ad YCG H Ld dGh G Zh FGdG g Y U Y AGS ,dG CG ,nG IAGOQ G ANCG hCG ,JGP zLdG{
.dG keY jdGh FeEGh ,VdG g Ld edG cG Qh bh G kQeh ,H ka ne piY e UCG H.HdGh jG LdG Y G kaGh
M h ,VGh piY N h ,e GhOCG EG cGG g j ;AT Y SCG dG dG QGgEGh ,dG G QGgE LG Qc e fOGLCGh fDhHBG d
.jG
,dG jG OYG e e , kAGHG LG Qc GMG e H ,LGG N Vh EG JYOh ,dG fl e LJ S e M piJ dG ,pidG YCG jh ,G G Gh dG e LdG J dG J fH IYb OLhh ,G jdhCG jh ,jOG LH
.dEG ... LdG N
VdG g dP Y piddGh ,j GfG hCG fh ,LdG gGdG hCG fCG ke ,e d e LdG dG SSCG YCG sKh .fHdG g a ,IL LJ d d adGh.bh CG AGd Me dG d pic j dG - G piS Y - JGha
LJ jd ,a T je S H MG YCG ,d edG YCG
.bO YH ,MGh ,dGh
N dG pidG Gg pie pia dG LJ Ic a ?gCG Y d edG YCd LJ LJ ,d Jh ,OG QdG dEG j CG dG jQJ YT cC vUCG kLe
.jEG
HY CG j ea .KQc EG piH , ,LJ fCG Y GQhCG H j CG piS hO ,gH Ld edG cG jh HOCG pidG d hCG LG GQd LGe Y piJ d da ;Ud LGe hCG b QGgEH j a UNh ,KQdG Qj Mh .jG bh , keY LdG KQc a zeb ce{ Y QGgEG Gg pie
!aVEG
YCG LH b bh ,SDe od H - gZh KGG AGd edG H - hMCGh ,cCG g e eCG h ,Oa zY aBG{ S bCG CG - VGG QaCH j e adG Qb d HdG adGh LdG Vd jDhQh ,g
.BG e
.Vs oJ h ,Fe e IY e
jT Q Y - Kh IQH - WCG j a ;dG aK bQah e M H ,HdG EG L oJ b "je
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g LJ GJ eh) LJ Y Y QhU Y b HQ Qhe H M ,IMdG
.(!hCG W
Ia EG d ,dP LdG e Z Qh aB e dG ;e CGh ,e Y G kQe dh ,IOhfi eCG YGe Y e dG dG fCG J EG dG G CGh ,YdG
.GH JCa H LJ ea ,bO cCG ,iNCG Mf eh MG e OY jd Cj jT IQU sM da) HdH IQdG ZU c OJ Y J IQU pich ,(LhCG IQdG jJ Uda ,Md J dG LdGh QNG Yh ,UCG jdG e Wh W J ,gdG Ea ,e U Y QGSG Yh , sEG IQd iNCG - MG - ZdG dG QN GdG J jdG .NGO Jh J fEG ,HdH HG ,Gh H LJ pic iKCG Gg cGJ dG jdG QdG BGh BG piH h Fe IQH ,NGO h Jh
.YGh
f IAGb ,AGK H e AGK fEG ,MGh MGh QNH gQUCG dG LdG.edG MH kFGO Oe dG a e M c - G kYT 15 LJ fCG piJh ,jhGhdG e Y YT pid - BG M kY a ,FdG e Y GjO piHh LdG e GdG g pic ?BG jd
.
dG G Y dG Ib J EG jd d fCG d SDj h ,gGdG d dPh) ke ee OhM P ,z{ Y dG h , keY zGHEG{ W e
.(UG Lh
e aCG - aCG c - dG Ia ,dGh ahG MG L Y e jM fCG Wh .dG kUNh e J CG Ha - e fGb H - CG j dG jG g piH j - jL e - Of CG ,HdG dG H OhG V fh fCG a
.aCGh
IOYEG e AGdG j CG bJCG d dG zdG G{h zGHEG{ EG QYG
.dG Id FdG zdG{ J
,d edG dG Yd BG YCG jhGhdG jh) dG hCG AGh dG AG Qj a ,(hCG HQCG
e QT H H (jhGhdG H jh) .hCG QhU
edG jdG YCd LJ QhU H dG J dG QGO CG cG ,dOd G kc GH e gh , kL jYh F
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jTG bh .G Qd dH H) L F - f Of H - f MCG b QT S Hh ,(!dG 320 UCG b dG S EG AbUCG QdG j pig :GDdG j gh !L
?c G Gg aO
gh adG Qb g EG G ,dd edG jdG YCG f dG a GNEG ja ;eGQh ac e pid
. S pibCH jRJh ,e
N bh ,INCG GdG Jj fEG ,piL d H eGQh ac Hc d dh ,jd e NGO GNEHh
.HdG Y a Me
- M CG Y dH kee d YdG ;Ybh Qa - jG IQdG c d M QTCG e JCGb eh ,MCG Y kXe d a T e CGb e CGOQCG g jG IQdG J RL EG Gg ,INCG GdG
.jdG IcGdG H dh ,kUCG G kT
e jH - eCG jf - Ida N edG jGdH h ,YV , oj
.G
d UCG ,dG e Y H e dGh LdG :gh ,e UN jJ ,dGh QdGh IQdGh KGGh YdGh
.IM Y pid kjJ e jf
:`LdG.cG MG aeh ,NBG cG
:dG .ffEG hod jQJ
:`Y`dG .dG Gg CG U
:`KGG.gh BG J CG
:IQ`dG.jQdG fEG QM
:Q`dG .H eh OSCGh HCG:(J CG j c) dG
.jGQh
:`e.GdG gj dG jQdG I sQ oO
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