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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 1 of 120
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1 KELLY RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARDTECHNICAL REVIEW SUBCOI44ITTEE
2
3
4 November 8th, 2005, 6:30 p.m.Environmental Health & Weliness Center
5 911 Castroville RoadSan Antonio, Texas 78237
6 Reported by Arlinda Rodriguez, CSR
7
8 APPEARANCE S
9 RAE Community Member Attendees:Robert Silvas, Community Co—Chair
10 Rodrigo GarciaMichael Sheneman
11 Armando QuintanillaHenrietta LaGrange
12 Coriene HannapelNazarite Perez
13 Nancy Garcia — Alternate for Mr. Ruben Martinez
14 RACiernmentjyiejther Attendees:Mark Weegar, Texas Comission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ)
15 Gary Miller, Environmental Protection Agency, (EPA) Region VI
16 Other Attendees:David Smith, Facilitator
17 Sonja Coderre, Air Force Real Property Agency (AFRPA)Norma Landez, AFRPA
18 Bill Hall, AFRPATodd Colburn, AFRPA Contractor
19 Eduardo Martinez, AFRPA ContractorHeather Ramon-Ayala, AFRPA Contractor
20 Abigail Power, TCEQ (Alternate for Mr. Mark Weegar)Greg Lyssy, EPA, Region VI (Alternate for Mr. Gary Miller)
21 Kyle Cunningham, San Antonio Metropolitan Health District(SAMHD) (Alternate for Ms. Melanie Ritsema)
22 Alan Ferrell, SANHDBianca Guerrero, Community Member
23 Norma de los Santos, Community MemberChris Cunanan, CommunIty Member
24 Carol Yzaguirre, Community MemberMr. Rob, Community Member - (unidentified last name)
25
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 2 of 120
2
the RAE
meeting
Technic
moment
review
gs began at 6:36 p.m.)
My name is David Smith. I'm
s of course is the November
oration Advisory Board
ttee. If we can take a quick
agenda review and a packet
in your packets.
nda are standard administrative
the documents that are being
the action item reports.
e around 7 o'clock ready to
report followed by Class 3
cap update. Those are
items —— the
forwarded to
You'll also
look at the
modificatlo
reflective
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(Proceedin
MR. SMITH:
facilitator. Thi
of the Kelly Rest
al Review Subcommi
and run through an
to reaffirm what's
On the age
ECT update,
the RAE, and
find somewher
spill summary
n update and a
in your packets.
In the pac
ber RAE draft
the listing
action items
tab summary,
nda; informat
finally, Mr.
treatment p1
So those a
s we go
are the Octo
BCT minutes;
the RAE; the
includin a
with the age
update; and,
ground water
g
kets the first item you'll find
minutes. Also the October RAE
of documents that are going to
from September, October
which will also be reflected
ion on the Class 3 modification
Hall's presentations on the
ant spillover.
fe all in there. We will try
to pick them up a through that. We've been asked
by one of the RAE members, Ms. Hannapel, to have a
FEDEPAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 3 of 120
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up.
of that
of
to
I have
And
ing is
I
ked
3
I.
moment to make a comment. If this will work for you,
this will be the time you can do that.
MS. HANNAPEL: Just a very quick
comment. Okay. It's pertaining to the letter that was
sent out to the 12,000 people last time -'— you know,
last time —— the last meeting we did not have any people
here. As a matter of fact, no one showed
Ms. Coderre said she could give me a copy
letter.
But what I wanted to ask was what kind
information is going out to the people? And ITll trymake this very brief. For instance, did these 12,000
people get a summary of this leak that just happened?
Did they get notification of that? And I will actually
turn in these questions.
MR. SMITH: Please.
MS. RANNAPEL: So I will do that.
a couple of fact sheets that were on the Web site.
these fact sheets make it sound to me like everyth
going all right. So the people are getting these.
wonder If that was perhaps one of the reasons. I as
this question before. It says, When the chlorinated
solvents come into contact with our environments and
PRSs, they break down into carbon dioxide and mineral
chloride. ITd like verification of that, Okay.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 4 of 120
MR. SHENEMAN
MS. HANNAPEL
like verification of that.
and have not gotten an answ
And very quickly,
the Kelly is separated by the
Aquifer by 1,000 feet of imperm
like for someone to explain how
impermeable. George Rice was he
Unfortunately, I did not get the
probably in a way that I could p
of points that indicate this act
aquifer. I don't know anything
mentioned that he has something
print it out. Okay.
regarding the fact that
from the Edwards
eable clay and rock. I'd
clay and rock can be
re last time.
information to him
rint out. Me has copies
ion did go to the
about that, but he did
to me, but I couldn't
4
And also
it here. It
which is used
on of that.
ubstance, as
don't believe
a copy of
substance
verificati
oil—like s
Because I
that.
one
says
in t
Is it
it say
it is
of the fact sheets —— I have
lactate is a vegetable—like
he remediation. I'd like
in fact a vegetable
s in the fact sheet.
and I think I posted for
It isn't.
I know it isn't. And d
And I have asked that before
er to that.
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So I will turn these in. Hopefully I
will get some answers. One other question. Has any
information gone out to the people about the effects
FE DE PAL10100 REUNION
PHONE:
of
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 5 of 120
5I.
—
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these chlorinated solvents as they break down. We're
told in the fact sheets they break down to sort of a
happy product, like water and carbon dioxide. But,
actually, they break down into VCU, Vinyl chloride,
which are all carcinogens. So I'd like to know if that
has actually gone out to people.
MR. SMITH: Okay.
MS. HANNAPEL: Thank you very much.
MR. SMITH: Ms. Hannapel, I do understand
that you're going to write those down?
MS. HANNAPEL: I am, yes.
MR. SMITH: As you may have noticed, we
have a new court reporter tonight. Would y'all
please —— I have to ask, would you please use your names
so that she isn't totally lost. And we'll have to
remind you of that, I'm sure.
MR. SILVAS: Robert Silvas. Before we go
on, I'd like to throw out, if any other RAE members
would like to make a comment before we move on?
Anybody else?
MR. GARCIA: I want to read a speech, if
you don't mind.
MR. SILVAS: Will it be brief?
MR. GARCIA: First of all, I want to
apologize to my fellow RAE members for missing our last
FE DERAL10100 REUNION
PHONE:
COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216(210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 6 of 120
meeting.
univ e r si
degree
pro fes
respon
which
Cc 1 u mb
responsibility
professional,
requires me to
respond to.
professionalism
responsibilities
crude, rude, vic
of the RAE and t
with us.
s cho
more
gree
I
responsibility to the community,
in construction engineering from
6
take my professional
work in a
a manner
public I
AFRPA people are a disgrace to
d do not take your professional
o the RAE very seriously. You are
us, and disrespectful to all members
community and do not function well
ol at a major Ivy league
training, certifications in
• I now have a professional
'm a professional who acts
my
—— a
I was in
ty getting
Yes, my de
sional degree.
sibly and has a
I must fulfill,
ia University.
Unlike the AFRPA, I
very seriously and
responsible, and in
work well with the
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which
am going to
You
an
t
io
he
class
your
took
Harva
profe
suppo
es in resp
responsibi
part in at
rd. Maybe
ssionalism
sed to be
You people should attend some of the
onsibilities as a government official and
lities to minority communities that I
John F. Kennedy School of Government at
there you will learn some dignity,
and respect for the community you are
serving. You people also have no
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 7 of 120
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military in
bureaucrats
on RAE, try
supervisors,
of the AFRPA.
excuses.
the letter of
staff. Thes
answer for e
not provide
nor do they
accountabili
surrounding
and Antwine
r e Si gnat i on
face their
members and
With that you
response from
bure
eptab
heir
for
of t
aucratic
le. They do
bureaucracy,
providing
he
FEDEPAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
professional on personal honor
7
Many men and women earned honor in the
blood, bullets, and body bags. You
don't understand that. Your job is to step
to crush us, suck up to your federal
and collect an undeserved paycheck.
All the RAE members, new and existing,
a copy of the complaint that I filed and
got from federal officials that spells out
ence, inadequacies, and the poor performance
It is all full of political rhetoric and
will
the
the
receive
answer I
incompet
will also receive a copy of
Antwine and his disgraceful
e disgraceful people have a
verything. This is not acc
a support data to back up t
fully justify their actions
ty to community RAB members
minority community.
I request that you ——
consider submitting your
and let the Air Force hir
responsibilities and work
the community members of
you AFRPA people
letters of
e people who will
with community RAE
this minority
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 8 of 120
bring
work
are
and
work
die?
firs
if y
try
coop
live
Ant w
need
litt
change and
We need an
dying in our
health issue
ers must die?
t skirmish. You
ou continue on yo
to start a job on
eration from you
here. We look f
me and your Air
The wa
to realize that
le clique of bure
will see more
ur bureaucrati
me for trying
people. You d
orward to see
Force legal st
r is just begi
you're here to
aucratic peopi
8
community.
I also request that
review both letters and then reali
and bureaucratic incompetence I re
from Washington.
the RAB members
ze the professional
ceived in that letter
This is the first skirmish in a war to
professional responsibilities to our
AERPA staff who cares about people who
community due to air, ground, water,
contamination. How many more Kelly
How many more community members must
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The war will continue.
not through with your people yet. This
I'm
is
not
jus
-- I'mt the
actions against you
c ego trip and now
to bring chahge and
on't care. You don't
resignations from
ooges.
nning. You people
serve us, not your
e at the AFRPA. We
will seek justice, and this minority community needs
justice.
FEDERZAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 9 of 120
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If I have to bring the congressman and
senators for a public congressional hearing, if I have
to go that far, I will. And believe me, I have the
power and the knowledge on how to get that
accomplished. Because these people are not cooperating
with us. Everything is a bureaucratic answer. And you
will see from the letter that I got from Washington when
Thank you, sir.
MR. SMITH: I might trouble you when
copy so that the court reporter can get
MR. GARCIA: Yeah. I'll give her the
original. My name is Rodrigo Garcia, Jr., RAB member
from the community. One of the members of the community
that's dying because of all this contamination.
MS. HANNAPEL: I'd just like to thank my
from Northwest Vista for showing up this
Thank you very much.
MR. SMITH: Okay. That moves us to the
administrative section of the agenda. First item I'm
showing is the BRAC Cleanup Team, the BCT update.
Ms. Landez?
MS. LANDEZ: Good evening. I'm Norma
Landez, the ERAC environmental coordinator. I represent
the Air Force Real Property Agency on the BRAC Cleanup
FEDER2IL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
9
you read it.
we —— to get a
an accurate —-
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students
evening.
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 10 of 120
Team. The minutes
meeting are in your
review. And we did
BRAC Cleanup Team.
MR.
MS
MR.
MS.
haven't decided yet
QUINTAMILLA:
1 be presented
committee for
LANDEZ: The
submitted in the packet just rec
was in previous RAB submittal
MR. QUINTANILLA:
meeting?
MS. LANDEZ: No.
letters for the TCEQ responded to
some closures some tank closures
are identified and then we also
Class 2 modification and that's
MR. QUINTAMILLA:
MR. SMITH: As we
me. Ms. Landez just pointed out
Do we have any
to the —— to the for
review?
only thing
ently was
document
But none
that we've
the - which
submittals.
fQr this
I mean, we just had two
—— I'm sorry —— to
we did and those
response to our
ur packet also.
k you.
d earlier —— ex
documents with
10
from the October BRAC Cleanup Team
packet and available for your
not have a meeting today as the
So I don't have any -- any summary.
SILVA: When's the next meeting?
LANDEZ: It will be December.
SILVA: December what?
LANDEZ: Probably the 6th. We
documents
review to
MR.
that wil
the TRS
MS
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that
had a
in ye
Than
note
the
cuse
TRS
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 11 of 120
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mentioned included in
item reports which are
Several pages of that,
way through.
summary report, the
Plant. Mr. Hall?
MR.
is Bill Hall.
and thank you
5 that are out
hrough this, I
several of yo
tment plant a
But I would
ed then. As I
most important
presentations,
you, stop me
I
ow
11
you have are in fact the letters from reports that she
the packet. Item C is the action
also included in your packet.
which they want you to work your
Next item
East
on the agenda is the spill
Kelly Ground Water Treatment
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name
you
folk
go t
meet
trea
new.
stat
HALL:
First
for comi
here.
'ye had
u on a t
couple o
like to
Good eve
of all,
ng out.
It shows
the oppo
our I di
f weeks
restate
ning. As he said, my
I'd like to welcome
I appreciate the
your concern. As we
rtunity with -- to
d of the groundwater
ago. Some of you are
something that I
presentation, the
of this
ions answered
ion, please, beg of
f I don't kn the
the answer. But I
the answer. If we do
which is to answer
why it happened,
thing is at
you have yo
If you have
go through
th
ur
a
and ask me.
thi
en
es
es
e
qu
qu
Okay.
5
d
t
t
I
w22
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answe
also
that,
your
r, I'll tell you I don't kno
will tell you that I'll find
then I will have done my job
questions about what happened
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 12 of 120
what we're doing about it.
presentation is about.
The gro
Groundwater Treatment
It's physical address
this plant and started opera
going to read this to you.
do is I'll kind of summarize.
things to show you how we've op
processed, our efficiency rate.
here, if you have any questions
please ask me.
That's what this whole
12
undwater treatment plant -- Zone 4
Plant is located on East Kelly.
is 3837 Eastern Road. We opened
I'm not
at will
f
tion in 2002. And
y'all can read. Wh I
These are some o the
erated, how much we
As you look through
as to what I'm saying,
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Okay. What I've tried to do is show you
that during this time
water. One of the qu
previous tour that I
asked how much water
plants. We went back
this plant, what have
able to do, and how mu
ff
p1
d
period,
estions
gave
we we
and
we
ch
Ou e ici
th s ant.
are we oing t
numbers that I
Currently, our
we've treated a lot of
that was asked in the
I believe Mr. Quintanilla
re producing in certain
looked at, since we opened
processed. What have we been
water have we put through it.
ency rating, we paid a lot of
What are we doing to make
o make it more efficient?
give you here.
normal flow runs about
r
idmoney to buil
it run? What
Those are the
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 13 of 120
150 gal
to get
have to
lone a
out of
keep
mm
the
this
ute ba
wells
level
13
sed on the water that
that we're currently
in order to keep the
able
We
we 're
using.
system
running
have it
this par
morning,
about wh
the spil
-- and you
ortant to
that
talk
caused
• As we go through
in your handout ——
ticular process.
one of our wells
at happened. The
1, and those kinds
Okay. Befo
ask the same question
any questions on this
is because it makes t
set up in order to ma
help you understand wh
a question on our next
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I'll
have
that
were
can
ask
the presentation
the flow is very imp
The day of the spill
went down. And we'll
well went down, what
of things.
re I proceed
after each
slide? And
he flow bett
ke the flow
at went on
slide, we
Yes, sir?
You menti
recovering
to each spill,
slide. Do you
the reason I do
er. The slides
better so that I
better. And if you
won't have to come
back and disrupt the flow.
MR
wells operating a
.GAR
nd yo
CIA:
u' re
oned
150
minute. What is the
recovering? What are
that water?
four recovery
gallons per
condition of the water you're
the contaminants you're finding in
finding
are the
MR. HALL: The contaminants we're
-— the primary chemicals of concern we utilized
TOE, POE. There's a list of them on the last
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 14 of 120
14
1 slide. You don't have to write them down. There's a
2 liSt. Tt also gives you some levels on that list that
3 are coming into the plant. The last slide that ITll
4 talk about, the last slide in the presentation. So we
5 talked about what we're getting, how much we're
6 getting. Okay. Yes?
7 MR. QUINTANILLA: Yes. What time did the
8 spill occur on October the 5th?
9 MR. HALL: Okay. We're coming up to
10 that. The spill —— the system shut down at 11 o'clock
11 that night.
12 MR. QUINTANILLA: What time were you
13 informed of this?
14 MR. HALL: I was informed of it at 7:30
15 in the morning.
16 MR. SHENEMAN: How?
17 MR. HALL: The technician that went to
18 the site noticed that the plant had water coming out the
19 doors. And he called Mr. David Poole, the field
20 technician supervisor. Mr. Poole called me, and we went
21 over immediately.
22 MR. QUINTANILLA: So this happened on
23 October the 5th, and you weren't advised until October
24 the 6th at ——
25 MR. HALL: At 7:30 in the morning.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 15 of 120
-- at 7:30 in
2 morning. One more question. How many gallons were
3 spilled?
6 MR. QUINTANILLA: Thank you very much.
10
Robert Silvas.
you're -- all the slides that I have coming up explains
11 all these and shows it to you. So I'll tell you what.
12 When we come to that. Like I'll tell you, when you ask
13 a question like that's on an upcoming slide, it's okay.
14 I'll say it's on an upcoming slide. You'll see it
visually and we can talk about it
16 to understand. Okay. Yes, ma'am?
18
19
that. Is that coming on a slide?
MR. HALL: I believe
of the week is
it was a Tuesday.
20 don't remember the calendar day
21
22
MS. HANNAPEL:
place from nighttime 'til the
So there's no system in
morning?
24 cover that in the slide. You bet.
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1 MR. QUINTANILLA:
15
4
S
the
an upcoming slide.
MR. HALL: I believe the number is -- on
7
36, 600 I believe is the number.
8
MR. SILVAS:
9
come about that number?
How did you
MR. HALL: Okay. What you're doing is
15
17
and it
MS. HANNAPEL:
will be easier
What day
23
I
MR. HALL:
25
Yes, there is. And we'll
MR. GARCIA: Is somebody watching the
INC.
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 16 of 120
16
1 plant 24 hours a day, that they could have discovered
2 this spill at 11:30 at night when it happened?
3 MR. HALL: Yes, sir. This's a mechanic
4 or a computer mechanism set up to do that.
5 MR. GARCIA: I'm talking about a human.
6 MR. HALL: Well, yes. That's —— there's7 nc one at the site, nc, to answer that question. But is
8 there someone
9 MR. GARCIA: From what hours tc what
10 hours is that plant managed?
11 MR. HALL: That plant is covered --
12 man-wise, we don't have anybody at that plant full time
13 at any time. That plant is monitored —— remember the
14 plant that you came over to visit that I took you
15 through? The computer that we have there is manned from
16 6:00 in the morning until 5:00 in the afternoon. That
17 computer has a screen on it that shows the other plant.
18 It's monitored by means of the domputer,
19 reading the computer that is being activated at the
20 other plant throughout the day. So it is monitcred and
21 watched throughout the day. Not only is the -- the
22 plant monitored, but each of the wells is monitored. So
23 it's being observed via the computer throughout the
24 day. But there's nobody physically at that site.
25 MR. GARCIA: So nobody is watching it 24
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 17 of 120
1 hours a day to make sure accidents like this happen at
3 MR. HALL: There's someone watching
4 but they're not physically there.
MR. GARCIA: So if the spill happened at
6 11:30 p.m., the response from a human didn't happen 'til
7 7:30 in the morning?
9 glitched. I'm going to explain that later, Mr. Garcia.
11 negligence.
put some kind of
14
15
something?
we have. I'll tell
tell you what we've done to improve it.
18 MR. SILVAS: Was this human error or
19 mechanical error?
21 MR. QUINTANILLA: And you're going to
22 explain the cause of that mechanical error?
23 MR. HALL: To the best of our ability.
24 You bet. Okay. Any other questions.
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
2 11:00 at night?
17
5
it,
8
10
MR. HALL: That's because the computer
MR. GARCIA:
12
13
Eight and a half hours of
possible to
MS. LAGRANGE: Henrietta LaGrange.
an alarm system
Is it
16
17
you what
there or
MR. HALL: We'll cover that.you what
I'll show
happened.
20
I'll
MR. HALL: Mechanical.
25 (No response)
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 18 of 120
18
MR. HALL: Okay. Next slide. Normally,
this is the process we're talking about. Water comes
in. It's received from the field in this particular
tank right here. You can see how many gallons it
holds. It has a high level alarm switch. It's a sensor
that's located right up here that faces down. When that
sensor picks up the water getting to a certain level, it
sets an alarm off. That alarm takes and tells the
computer that we need —— that it will increase the flow
in this pump to bring the water levels down. Once it
does that, the water levels begin to come down. After
the water —- after the high alarm hits the computer, if
there's a high alarm and something happens and it
doesn't, then the computer will shut down the well
fields.
My UV/OX skid, which I'm going to show
you a picture of here in a second said, Hey, I don't
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Okay.
determine happened at
in the slide before I
to have a minimum of
the system running.
clogged. It started
shut down to protect
gallons a minute.
On this spill day, what we can
this point was —— remember earlier
talked about the fact that we have
around 150 gallons of water to keep
One of the wells went down. It got
overheating the pump. The well
the pump. We got down to 90
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 19 of 120
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have en
enough
the bu
hot.
does i
down.
yes.
field
maintenance on
maintenance on
What h
that
we di
will
down.
19
appens if I don't have
system —— you remember
d the tour. They get
explode. So what it
It shuts the field
en do you do
or
do c
site
ough water to run.
water to run through
lbs I showed you when
They get too hot, they
s it shuts the system
Okay. What happened is that night, the
sensor, we determined later on with other tests after
the spill. We reset the computer and started running
over to find out, okay, what happened here. The sensors
that we have in this deal were working. It sent a
message to the computer saying it got high. It got high
because the WI/OX skid shut down to protect itself.
Once it hit the high, it sent a message
to the computer and the computer did not get a message
out to the field and shut it down. That's why the spill
occurred.
QUINTANILLA: Didn't communicate?
HALL: It communicated but it --
The computer did not shut the
MR.
MR.
Exactly right.
down. Exactly right.
MS. LAGRANGE
these tankâ
MR. HALL:
these ——
How oft
and pipes
We normally
we're at the
hecks and
on a daily
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 20 of 120
basis. We're going to check
physical check of the system
question,
20
it. We
itself.
a weekly
MR.
have a weekly
To answer your
checklist
you provide us a
check.
QUINTANILLA: Can
of your weekly check?
MR. HALL: Sure. Could
that? Absolutely.
e that are done at
I have biweekly ch
need
that
ekly
And
that I
checks
have we
checks.
and how
to
get
che
th
get
don
cks,
ey' re
somebody
I've got
each plan
ecks, and
note
daily
t. I
monthly
the manufac
MR.
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all based on the type of equipment
tures suggest
QUINTANILLA:
of the
at the
to
One
check the
question.
se weekly, monthly, and
sensor?
equipment.
Does all
daily checks, do you look
looking at the
MR. HALL: We haven't
MR. QUINTANILLA: You
sensor?
been.
have not been
MR. HALL: No.
MR. QUINTANILLA:
sensor installed?
How far back
installed
was that
That sensor was initiallyMR. HALL:
when the building was built.
MR. QUINTANILLA: When was
MR. HALL: It started runni
believe October 2000
that?
ng in I
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 21 of 120
21
1 MR. QUINTANILLA: Since 2000? That
2 building has been running in 2000, and no one has ever
3 looked at the sensor.
4 MR. HALL: We watched -- the computer
5 giving us the indicator that it's been working, yes.
6 The only way you can check that is by filling it up to
7 see that it shuts off. It does that every day. On the
8 weekly checks thatTs noted. It's noted that it has
9 been -- that it has governed and watched the high flows.
10 MR. SILVAS: Who's responsible for that
11 computer program?
12 MR. HALL: Ultimately, I am.
13 MR. SILVAS: Who wrote it?
14 MR. HALL: The contractors wrote by my
15 contractor.
16 MR. SILVAS: Which is?
17 MR. HALL: SAIC.
18 MR. SILVAS: Thank you.
19 MR. HALL: The program is out of
20 Pennsylvania, where the primary -- that's their only
21 job, is programing. And those programs —— after this
22 incident occurred, all of those programs were checked
23 and were all properly done. It was a mechanical, not a
24 programming error.
25 MR. SHENEMAN: Two questions. One: Is
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 22 of 120
questions
MR.
of your folks corr
water means. Well
water treatment ii
polishing to me is
hydrogen peroxide.
polishing?
c type.
SHENEMAN:
HALL: Itter, and c
HANNAPEL:
HALL: I'm
float?s a.
SHENEMAN: Last time I
ected me about what pd
I told -- what we used
censes for proper water.
both the activated carbIs that how you're def
questions.
had two
was there, one
ishing the
to hold four
What
on and the
ining
your sensor a
22
ball-cock type of a
MR. HALL: No. It'MR. SHENEMAN: Tube?
MR. HALL: No. It's a
signal down, and it's received, bounced
I've gone brain dead on the terminology
it's an ultra soni
MR.
MR.
bounces off the wa
MS
MR.
—— it sends a
back up, and
for it. But
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A doppler of some kind?
sends a signal down,
omes back.
Yeah.
sorry.
Two
You
as after
it's tre
portion
through
the
ated
is w
the
MR. HALL: No. We
hydrogen peroxide is
That's the treatmen
hen after it's been tr
GAO units, Granulated
define the polishinginjected in iJv/ox,
t. The polishing
eated, that it's sent
Activated Carbon
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 23 of 120
units. And that's what's considered our polishing.
MR. SHENEMAN: So it's a two-step
process?
MR. HALL: Actually, the -- well, you'r e
putting polishing together. Where I put primary
treatment and the final polishing, the insurance that 1
have actually cleaned the water to meet the
requirements. It's two separate things.
MR. SHENEMAN: That makes sense to me,
but I was corrected as far as the polishing.
MR. HALL: Yes, ma'am?
HANNAPEL: Okay. Two questions.
routine checks ever at night and on
the second question is: Now that the
is there a plan in place to check it?
MR. HALL: Yes. We're going to cover
that in depth in the upcoming slides. And we also
installed mechanical devices that will eliminate —- ifthe computer goes down and if we have this glitch that
we have, we have now installed —— we will have installed
by Friday the mechanism to where it will shut off no
matter what.
MS. HANNAPEL: Why wasn't that installed
before?
MR. HALL: It wasn't foreseen to be
23
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MS
One: Do you have
the weekend? And
sensor has failed
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a
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 24 of 120
problem.
of mechan
high-high
caught us
24
We had what we believed was the secondary type
ism to prevent this with the high and the
alarm. And we had a combination glitch that
virtually, I guess, with our pants down.
MS. HANNAPEL: Did you have data or
various systems like this set up elsewhere? Data on ——
MR. HALL: No, we don't.
MS. HANNAPEL: And the question about the
nighttime and weekend checks?
MR. HALL: No. We have no one go out
but we do look at those during the
a laptop computer that I check that I
units and check from my house. And
and the plant operator also has a
-- we can punch in and check and look
stem's working.
MS. HANNAPEL: But that
if this happened at
uld have noticed it
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there physically,
evening. I have
can plug into the
the plant manager
labtop that we can
to see that the sy
didn't work. So
if it happened —— 6 o'clock Friday
evening, no one wo 'til Monday
morning?
MR. HALL: No. They would have
noticed —— we sample from those plants on Saturday and
Sunday. Every Saturday and Sunday. We sample from
those plants every day. Those plants are visited every
weekend, every holiday. And samples are taken to meet
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 25 of 120
16 completely out
GUERRERO: Yes, sir.
1
2
3
4
the regulatory requirements for
MR. QUINTANILLA:
urs only?
HALL:
25
during daylight ho
MR.
our permit.
This sampling is done
Ms.
Yes, sir
5
6
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the information
has failed, why
person will not
You can't necess
back computer to
rechecked itself.
MR
mechanically that
in order to alert
We re installing
GUERRE
we have,
isn't it
be there
arily dep
chec on
So my
HALL:
been
And t
setup
k
RO:
now t
going
to che
end on
someth
questio
I can
establ
hat's
to whe
Bianca Guerrero. Due to
hat you realize the system
to be implemented that a
ck on the system itself?
a computer or a double
ing that is going to be
n
depend on something
ished to depend on nature
what we're installing.
re if the computer goes
is —-
5
a
MS
will fail
MR
But computers17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Even
shuts
where
level
HALL: Well, that's what I'm saying.
if it fails, if the computer completely fails and
down, by Friday we will have a system set up to
it will shut the fields down as soon as the high
is detected
MS. GUERRERO: But wouldn't it be better
to have somebody actually there and not wait 'tIl the
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 26 of 120
26
somebody, 5
that leeway
ioally shut
upcoming day to notify
know, because you have
the system will automat
next day.
it will be better.
ay yo
time
down
urself?
between
and go
You
to where
into the
MR. HALL: To answer your question, yes,
look at, if
sit someone
established
have a mech
range of a
wouldn't h
eed to
have to
I
But I ha
it in a
you
comput
and
5 a
sitt
RO:
out
II
It
ons
for
in
so
ye a bu
manner
know,
er se
stuff
year
ing
So
and
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I can do
out there
this whole
anism to call
lion dollar
to someone
MS. GUERRE
only going
a once a week
money. But
dget, and I
that doesn
one of reas
tup in order
was to save
in man hours
out there.
you're say
looking at
it to
the
that Imil
ave
and
are
ving
that's
d have
on budget
two-plant
you're sa
of money
that coul
ing by
this
saving
one- or
and
this
only
has
during
caused
the day
a great deal
It could have been
going to be spent because of something
been fixed by a minute amount of money.
avoided
MR. HALL: Well,
Ms. GUERRERO: I
creating a great
o be spent than j
ator shift of you
will stay in the
this has been
that's going t
there on a rot
somebody else
there's not —— well
mean, really and truly,
deal more amount of money
ust by having somebody
stay in the morning or
evenings of this man hour
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 27 of 120
27
1 over—budget that you're talking about.
2 MR. HALL; Well, there's not going to be
3 a lot of money spent on the cleanup because of the level
4 of the contaminants in the water. We'll talk about
5 that
6 MS. GUERRERO: It's still a contamination
7 and it affects everybody.
8 MR. HALL: Well, when I show you some
9 numbers, you know, contamination —— the definition of
10 contamination is different to different people. What I
11 need to show you, which I will show you, is levels that
12 will hopefully, or should, make you feel more
13 comfortable about what we're doing. And the last slide
14 that you have there, the one that I told you about with
15 the numbers and stuff, shows you numbers. And that
16 should help you tell you where we're going.
17 MR. QUINTANILLA: Mr. Hall, you mentioned
18 budget twice. What is your budget?
19 MR. HALL: My budget currently for
20 running all three of the plants ——
21 MR. QUINTANILLA: Or whatever you were
22 talking in context with what the question was.
23 MR. HALL: It runs about $330,000 a year
24 to run that plant.
25 MR. QUINTANILLA: $330,000.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 28 of 120
28
1 MR. HALL: And the associated fields.
2 MR. SILVAS: Have you been coming under
3 budget or over budget?
4 MR. HALL: I don't have an under/over
5 budget.
6 MR. SILVAS: In the end of your fiscal
7 year, do you have money left over?
8 MR. HALL: No.
9 MR. SILVAS: So you flatly go over, or
10 are you meeting the budget?
11 MR. HALL: I'm meeting the budget. My
12 job is to meet the budget.
13 MR. PEREZ; On this spill date, the
14 computer failed to shut the well?
15 MR. HALL: Correct.
16 MR. PEREZ: So y'all reset it, and then
17 it worked? The test worked.
18 MR. HALL: Yeah.
19 MR. PEREZ: And what other procedures did
20 you take after that?
21 MR. HALL: As far as a safety mechanism
22 built in?
23 MR. PEREZ: Were you satisfied with the
24 resetting and it working?
25 MR. HALL: No. That's why we've
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 29 of 120
1
2
3
4
5
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9
float hits a
about before,
will hit a swi
computer, whic
down immediately.
MR. PEREZ:
you're talking about?
MR. HALL;
new set of hardware
want to piggyback on
potential for a glit
MR. PEREZ:
MR. HALL:
oned, one
a computer glit
ith computers m
t it's going to
What we've es
if the computer
ill be a mechani
It will be at th
there's a mechani
29
ch is going to
uch in your
lock up.
tablished is
shuts down
sm in there
e —— even if
cal mechanism
of the things Iestablished —— like she menti
have to do is establish --
happen. If you've worked w
life, you know at some poin
Something's going to happen
we a felt mechanism -— even
like she mentioned, there w
that will shut that down.
the sensor isn't working,
that simply wcr ks by nature.
It's like your toilet bowl. If that
certain level like you were talking
if that float gets to a certain level, it
tch, which doesn't go through the
h doesn't do anything but shut the field
10
11
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whole
don' t
has a
about it?
Okay. Is this a new setting
Not a new setting. It's a
that we're installing. I
something that has shown that
ch. That would be silly.
But you're doing something
Yes, sir. And that's the
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important thing?
investigate thi
are they going
also besides the
MR.
report to the TCEQ
the EPA.
The
bas
ng
Wi 1
at
wor
to
I
at
TCEQ wil
ically t
you. If
1 ask me
report g
king on
them.
have no
can get
Once
that
30
Did the
kind of
AERPA ov
EPA and the GEC here
sanctions and fines
er this act?
Yes, sir?
MR. GARCIA:
s? And what
to give the
MR. HALL:
from us, and they will get
investigation that I'm givi
additional questions, they
is —— after that's done, th
Ms. Landez and I have been
it gets up to them, it's up
you want to know after that
have some regulators here t
answers. I don't have them
MR. GARCIA:
TCEQ?
HALL: I
I have
1 request a report
he same
they have any
And after that
oes through ——
that report.
Any questions
answer to. I
you those
I
h
I
Is this reported to the EPA
do not report to the EPA.
no requirement to report to
s just kind of
flow of water
ow, I've been
And at one
uipment -- d
in time, it
through this
kind of an a
classes many
time I asked
water course
MR.
thing
qui fer
times
how
run.
SHENEMAN: Let'
You've got a
And as you kn
/ to your talks.
fast does this eq
And at one point
walk
in some
out to
point in
oes this
seemed
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 31 of 120
of the ——
dictates.
that the
But it's
MR. SHENEMAN: I would think
MR. HALL: Depending on the p
the water—bearing strength of the
It ranges. And quite honestly,
low range and the high range. I
a whole lot slower than you think
SHENEMAN: It's ver
pump shuts down.
is going past this
MR.
this
ater
ght?
MR. HALL: I can speak to
given the time that it's
plant has ever been down
y. The water only moved s
those pumps back on, the r
I have, which is the area
water back, captured any
like it was 20 feet in 24 hours or 24 hours.
can't
31
aqui fer
MR. HALL:
I
It varies throughout the
so.
ermeability
aquifer it
I don't know
don't know.
y dry right now.
That means the
point of
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Okay. So then
contaminated w
extraction, ri
MR. HALL: Uh-huh.
MR. SHENEMAN: Is there any mechanism
downstream to recapture or does the contaminated water
keep on going?
that
the
mci
Once
infi
pump
occurred,
longest my
dent. Oka
I turned
uence that
s will draw
my incident
down, which is
in that type of
everal feet.
adius of
that those
water that
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traveled
I turned
the pump.
and they'
pumping.
was —— wh
matter go
MR. SHENEMAN:
I understand that
re water cooled with
I understand that.
at would you call it
t into it?
HALL: Just dirt.
• SHENEMAN: Just dirt?
HALL: Yeah. Any time you
's been in the ground for any
potential for dirt to get in
ing water through.
SHENEMAN: Right.
HALL: At some point.
that we have over in that
clean them. And we watch
ells us -- when they get
e pull them out and we c
And about a four-hour
pull then out and clean
32
from the time the pump shut down 'til the time
it on.
Let!s go back and look at
these are submersible pumps
the fluid that they're
If you said that there
7 Foreign particulate
MR. HALL: Shuts it
MR. SHENEMAN: What
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down.
was that foreign
particulate matter?
MR
MR
MR
type of well that
period, there's a
that we use to br
MR
have any
time
the slots
horizontal wel
those out and
computer and i
they shut down
put them back
what it takes
MR
ls
we
tt
w
in.
to
We pull these
area, we pull
them on the
clogged up and
lean then and
time period is
them.
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33
1 MR. SHENEMAN: I guess the problem I'm
2 having is if the pump shuts down, if it's not
3 conditioned in this case with water, then how did you
4 have a spill?
S MR. HALL: Because I that's only one
6 pump of four that were running. I still had three pumps
7 pumping water in the plant.
8 MR. SHENEMAN: So you had two problems at
9 once. You had a pump down and you had three continuing
10 to pump?
11 MR. HALL: Well, three continuing to pump
12 is a good thing. The bad thing was because the water
13 flow went below the level that needs to go through the
14 UV/OX skid, it shut down. No. It's good that the pumps
15 keep going. The computer glitch was the only problem.
16 The sensors worked. All the sensors in all the areas
17 worked. But when they sent the message to the computer,
18 there was a glitch and it didn't shut the system down.
19 That's what I fixed.
20 MR. SHENEMAN: One other thing. When did
21 this thing happen? It was some —— Norma said it was the
22 5th of October, and one of your colleagues was saying
23 some other time.
24 MS. LANDEZ: I said the 5th.
25 MR. HALL: There was a lot of
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 34 of 120
going on, a
correct dates
MR. SHENEMAN
Back to the
6, 000 gallons
at that?
MR. HALL: I've
d we'll go th
t myself and
easy calcula
SILVAS: Wha
filters got clogged?
that? And what about
MR. HALL: No, I
because they •clog all the time.
clean them and put them back in.
the dirt, when this
out, no?
MR. HALL
ken to the
And they'
of the stu
treated a
34
got the calculation in an
rough that. Otherwise,
go with the flow of the
tion.
t evidence
Were there
the dirt?
c ommun i cat ions
these are the
I'll shut up
something of 3
did you arrive
lot of things happening, and
we have here.
One more question, and
spill. You quoted it was
and some change. Okay. How
upcoming slide, an
I'm going to repea
deal. It's a real
MR.
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that the
taken of
go?
do you
any ph
Where
have
otos
did it
don't
They
And
have
pull
the
any pictures
them out and
question on
MR. SILVAS:
itself is ta
you visited.
dirt and all
system. It's
You had to take the filters
The filters? No. The pump
groundwater treatment plant where
re cleaned there, and all of that
ff that's there goes into the
s a Zone 2 system.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 35 of 120
are horizontal wells,
to —— I believe the
35
How far down is this1
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MR. SHENEMAN:
hole?
MR. HALL: Those
and they range anywhere from 20
deepest is 45 feet.
MR. SHENEMAN: Horizontal wells?
MR. HALL: Yes. They're not vertical
wells that go down and you have a small area. They go
down like the old oil it was developed in the oil
fields in order to get more. And what we have is we've
got ten horizontal wells that overlap, so there's no way
it oan get through.
MR. SILVAS: Who was the builder of
this?
MR. HALL: Weston was the people who
built the plant. Bore something —- Long Leer (phonetic)
Boring was the people who did the horizontal wells. And
they are experienced oil field drillers who helped
develop the horizontal wells back when the oil fields
first developed them.
MS. LAGRANGE: Were you given any type of
discipline for not preventing this accident from
happening?
MR. HALL: No.
MR. SHENEMAN: What are they going to
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 36 of 120
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7
a
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MR.
uncti
jsn,
down, which
breaks
when I put
k.
uper r in the
you o
orks 1 0 percent
stuff breaks.
mentioned tha
op and you ch
yo bc at it,
re you to bed,
pump working.
om t , and
by the
ms are
to the
don T
here.
be
Good
1
2
3
4
do?
is a
down
Whip him?
normal f
My job
36
HALL: A computer breaks
on. Every computer there
t to -- you know, I know
I do
viso
Id
0
t
eck
u
the system in things are going to brea
everything I can to not only look my s
face but look you in the face and tell
everything I can to make sure that it w
of the time. But I also —— I also know
MS. LAGRANGE: Also, you
you hook up to your computer, your lapt
on this. Is there a certain hour that
or you just do random times? Like befo
Oh, I'm going to check and see how this
MR. HALL: It's just rand
it's not necessarily every night either. I go
flow, and all my technicians tell me the syste
running and stuff like that. And when we get
next couple of slides, it will tell you why I
under normal conditions.
Does anybody have their hand over
If you do, wave or throw something at me. Just
careful. I bruise easy. Any other questions?
questions
k
go
is
imes
Okay. Go ahead and hit the next slide.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 37 of 120
37
Chain of events. These are the
talking about. Chain of events:
calls me and tells me this is wh
this I've already covered. I'll
quickly.
time tables that we're
7:30, my contractor
at's happened. Some of
go through it very
Mr. Poole was notified. My
supervisor, manager. He calls
field
me We
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technician,
immediately
Two things
around the
something -
mouth is.
right. So
establish
start talk
It's —— thos
worked with
got to kind
gone on and
to do that.
go to the site and begin the investigation.
we investigate, the extent of the spill
plant and what's the water touched. That's
— the first question that comes out of your
Okay. What did the water touch? All
we go over and we look. Second thing we
to ask is, obviously, we shut it down. We
ing about all right. What caused it?
This is not an easy investigation.
e of you who have worked with computers and
mechanical things, you know that now you've
of back engineer and try to find out what's
what's happened. So it takes a little bit
pumped it
my Zone 2
there. W
We removed the water
out and put it In trucks
plant, my large plant. T
ashed down the building.
Wein the
and too
reated
We clog
building.
k it over to
it over
ged the
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1
2
water. And then all of that water is also taken to my
plant and treated.
38
MR. SHENEMAN: I don't know that I've
4 been in this plant, but I've be in others many tines.
9
10 that water?
MR. HALL:
MR. SHENEMAN:
I don't believe you have.
Then how did you capture
11 MR. HALL: It sat there.
It pools in the middle?
MR. HALL: Yes. It's a sealed floor.
14 It's a painted sealed floor
16 pooled.
MR. HALL: I don't want to put drains for
18 this very reason: If I had drains, then I'd be trying
19
20
to explain to you why all this water went in the drain
that shouldn't have gone.
MR. SHENEMAN:
MR. HALL:
That's right
So no. I don't have drains.
23 I'll never have a drain in the plant.
25 in the building?
MR. GARCIA: How deep did that water get
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3
5
6
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there?
MR. SHENEMAN: Are there floor drains in
MR. HALL: No.
12
13
MR. SHENEMAN:
15 MR. SHENEMAN:
17
I understand that. But it
21
22
24
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 39 of 120
4
MR. HALL:
MR. GARCIA:
water, about this much?
About seven inches
39
So do you have a perimeter,
6
8
10
sealed. Yes, sir
doors that open?
where that part ——
MR. HALL: Now, the seven inches is up to
to where it will start flowing out of
11 the building.
13 the building at that point, like where the doors were?
MR. HALL: Until it got to that point,
stayed in the building. And I showed you. We have some
16 calculations The questions that keeps popping up,
17 which is an excellent question, is how did I determine
18 how much left the building. And part of that is the
19
20
21
measurements of the building minus the
floor. It was still in there.
was left in the building.
22 Did any —- you captured
23 seven inches deep worth. But if it got more than seven
1
2
3
5
a curb or something that will hold seven inches worth of
7
MR. HALL: Yes. ItTs painted up and
MR. GARCIA:
9
Even where you have the
12 MR. GARCIA:
14
15
So none of it flowed out of
it
depth of the
And that determined what
MR. GARCIA:
24
25 door.
inches deep, that means it slipped out through the
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 40 of 120
40
pictures of that.
MR
in line going to
water was ——
MR. HALL: Yes, it did. And I got
Exactly right.
SHENEMAN: Do you have a flow meter
the building so that you know how much
MR. HALL: I have several.
MR. SHENEMAN: At a given point?
MR. HALL: Yes.
MR. SHENEMAN: All you have to do is just
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HALL: I have the calculations here.
that in just a minute. But that is a
on. That is one we addressed
subtract ——
MR
We'll talk about
very valid questi
immediately.
how much water
is on the gras
questions you
that question I
the sensor. Cer
this used around
why there was no
Okay. But the most important thing is
is left in my building? How much water
s? That's one of the most important
asked. And we'll cover that.
MS. HANNAPEL: I'd like to go back to
asked about why there was no check on
tainly there must be other sensors like
the country. I still don't understand
check in several years.
MR. HALL: I missed it in the checklist.
I'd like to give you a better answer, but that's
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the
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 41 of 120
41
1 only one I have.
2 MS. HANNAPEL: So you missed it.
3 MR. SHENEMAN: Speaking of sensors, you
4 can have one in the building that would work to --
5 MR. HALL: I've got preventative measures
6 that were built into the building itself that we're
7 going to talk about. You bet.
8 MR. QUINTANILLA: Before you go to
9 preventative measures, what was the cost of the cleanup?
10 MR. HALL: So far the only cost of the
11 cleanup is the man hours that were spent draining the
12 building and taking the water over to get it treated and
13 the investigation portion and the cleanup of the
14 building.
15 MR. QUINTANILLA; How many truckloads of
16 water was taken over to this —— to the plant? 36,000
17 gallons?
18 MR. HALL: No. We didn't take 36,000
19 gallons. We took 9,300 gallons.
20 MR. QUINTANILLA: Just the ones inside
21 the building?
22 MR. HALL: Yes.
23 MR. QUINTANILLA: The 36,900 gallons, or
24 whatever it was, outside the building, what happened to
25 that water?
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42
1 MR. HALL: It soaked into the ground.
2 MR. QUINTANILLA: How is that ground
3 being restored?
4 MR. HALL: I'll talk to that when we get
5 the ——
6 MR. QUINTANILLA: And how much is that
7 going to cost us?
8 MR. HALL: Nothing.
9 MR. QUINTANILLA: ItTs not going to cost
10 nothing?
11 MR. HALL: None. Zero.
12 MR. QUINTANILLA: You mean it's free
13 labor?
14 MR. HALL: No. I will explain when I get
15 there.
16 MR. QUINTANILLA; And the other questions
17 is; How long did the cleanup take? Or how long is it
18 going to take, since it soaked up into the ground and so
19 forth?
20 MR. HALL: It's done.
21 MR. QUINTANILLA: It's done already?
22 MR. HALL: Once —— I say that. Once the
23 report gets to the TCEQ, they will look at the numbers
24 that I'm going to show you. We have analysis of the
25 water the day before the spill, and we also have
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analysis of the water coming into the p
after the spill. TCEQ will review that.
cQme to me and they'll say that if they
they determine that soil samples need to
something needs to be done, they will te
point.
MR. QUINTANILLA:
I have, and I believe it's been
was the cost of the investigatio
of the cleanup? It has to cost
labor in there.
that we spend
many man hours?
there. It
Probably a
of the water for
truck and taking
9300 gallons, and
nine. Just about
43
lant the day
And they will
look at that and
be required or
11 me at that
And the other ques
previously asked:
n and what was the
something. There's
tion
What
cost
some
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MR. HALL: That's what I said. The time
as far as man hours and stuff
MR. QUINTANILLA: How many people? How
MR. HALL: We had two people working over
took about four hours to pump the water out.
total of about 10 man hours at this point.
MR. QtJINTANILLA: And how many truckloads
transporting and pumping it in the
it down to the plant and --
MR. HALL: We moved approximately
it's an 1100-gallon tank. So about
nine tank fulls.
MR. QUINTANILLA: And that took about ten
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44
1 hours to fill those nine tanks?
2 MR. HALL: And clean the facility. These
3 are people who are already paid to work eight-hour
4 days. No additional funds were required to have them do
5 that. It took time.
6 MR. QUINTANILLA: It took time from their
7 regular duties to do this, so it's over and above what
8 they normally would do.
9 MR. HALL: Yes.
10 MS. HANNAPEL: Question on that missed
11 check. What system do you have in place, and how do you
12 know that there's something else that's not being
13 checked?
14 MR. HALL: We're going back through and
15 reevaluating not only the program, but all sensors have
16 been added to those checklists.
17 MS. HANNAPEL: Will we get a list of
18 that?
19 MR. HALL: You certainly can.
20 MS. HANNAPEL: I would like to get a list
21 that
22 MR. HALL: It will be part of the
23 checklist that ybu asked for earlier. That will be
24 provided. You bet
25 MR. GARCIA: Now, you —— that 36,500
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 45 of 120
45
soaked into the ground, how are you going
are you going to remove that soil that got
by water spilled? How are you going to
soil?
gallons that
to remove
con tam in a ted
deal with that
they will tell
I don't know t
answer?
MR. HALL: After the TCEQ
me what needs to be done.
he impact, if there is one
MR. PEREZ: Are they here?
evaluation,
At this point,
at all.
Can they
thought I heard y
fail. It was act
and the computer.
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MR. WEEGAR: Mark Weegar, TCEQ. I
ou say earlier that the sensor didn't
ually an interface between the sensor
MR. HALL: Correct.
MR. WEEGAR: There's not -- to your
s nothing wrong with the sensor, right?
MR. HALL: Yeah. There's nothing wrong
knowledge, there'
with the sensor.
MR. WEEGAR: It
that had the problem, not the
MR. HALL: The
as it should. Right. We rese
computer is reset. We tested
We raised the water up, and th
raised the water in the other
'5 actually the computer
sensor itself.
sensor is still operating
t the computer, and the
four different occasions.
e sensor worked. We
tank, the sensor worked.
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46
MR.
MR .
HALL:
PEREZ:
Pardon?
The mechanical part was
No.
stuff
Yeah, the mec
were working,
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hanioal
yes.
We raised the check mechanism in sump. It worked.
Everything worked except the computer went down. It
didn't send the message to shut down the field.
MR. PEREZ: So really truly, it wasn't
mechanical?
working?
MR. HALL:
portion, the sensors and
MR. ROB: So it wasn't the computer?
MR. HALL: It was a glitch in the
computer that didn't send the message out.
MR. ROB: So you were s
you told her it was a mechanical issue
saying it's a computer issue. Which o
MR. HALL: A mechanical has been
put in to make sure that when the gut the glitch
like occurred this time, the mechanica em is being
put in to make sure that there's a redundant shutoff
valve. But it was always the computer glitch that
simply could not be found.
We tried to redo it. We spent three days
trying to go back and make this happen again. But every
time we send the water up for the sensor to look at, the
aying earlier when
and now you're
ne is it?
system
oh, if
1 syst
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47
1 sensor shuts it down just like it's supposed to.
2 Go ahead. All right. Preventative
3 measures that we have currently. All the tanks have
4 high—level alarm systems that shut off once the water
5 reaches a certain level in the tank. We have a sump in
6 the floor I just mentioned that I had mentioned before
7 that, when water hits the floor, there's a small
8 indention place that's about a foot and a half square
9 and about eight inches deep. It's got a float in it
10 like your toilet bowl. When it hits a certain level, it
II sends a message to the computer and it shuts the plant
12 down. The phone alarm system dials the project team.
13 Once this system shuts down, those of you
14 who have been on the tour before, the alarm system goes
15 into a dialing system that calls me on this phone. The
16 government pays for this phone. They make me carry this
17 phone 365, 66 days a year, 24 hours a day. I never turn
18 it off. It calls this phone, and it tells me the system
19 shut down. Okay.
20 This glitch that did not shut the field
21 down was the same problem that didn't get the message to
22 the auto dialer to call me. This system has worked many
23 times. If you don't believe me, ask my wife. She hates
24 it when it goes off at 2 o'clock in the morning. This
25 phone, it calls me —— the plant goes down, it calls me
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 48 of 120
on the phone.
says, Plant so
48
I see if I can
problem and I
running and co
t
t
m
ct
I
occur. ITll shut th
an immediate problem,
and verify that the c
Because once the comp
He'll get on, and he'
the two of us shu th
meet at the plant rig
all
the plant. We do one
plant and we shut it
thing doesn't happen
explain this again.
then.
I get this wonderful computer voice that
and so has a failure. It's down.
At hat point I log in on the computer.
shu it down. If I see that there's a
can anipulate it, I can keep the plant
rre the problem.
If can't then one of two things will
e plant down. If it looks like it's
then I will call the plant manager
omputer has already called him.
uter calls me, it calls him too.
11 try it. If we cannot between
is down with our laptops, then we
ht then.
him
of
down
and I
Or we
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
t
Ic I atsay, Let's
two things. We
to make sur t
don't have to
fix it. But
et me
the
kie
go. Me
get to
hat this
come and
we do it right
n d of
The glitch that occurred that caused this
not to shut the field down prevented the auto dialer
from dialing me. And in a minute we1ll talk about what
we've done to correct that also. We've tested that. We
test that mechanism regularly to make sure that it calls
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 49 of 120
49
1 me. Not that we haven't tested it, because there's
2 several alarms that goes off that are what we call
3 nonfunctional alarms that just let me know that
4 something happens.
5 What's being added. The phone alert
6 system. Currently or when this occurred, the phone
7 systems were segregated. Each plant has a dialer. Both
8 the plant that you visited, this plant, and my Zone 5
9 plant have a dialer that has the ability to call other
10 people. It's lined up to call four people. Myself, my
11 two plant managers, and my project manager from my main
12 contractor.
13 Once it goes down, it calls. What we've
14 done is we've programmed it to get away from a simple
15 phone mechanism. What I -- I guess I'm trying to
16 explain it, but badly. What we've done is, initially,
17 they were three separate units. In this case the
18 Phone 2 in the Zone 4 plant did not call me.
19 The way that it's set up now, if an alarm
20 goes down and it's shut down, that computer, it will
21 take and -- that part of the system will, through RF --
22 we have it connected through RF to the Zone 2 plant --
23 it will call me. So, in essence, what I've done is made
24 a redundant system. Instead of if this plant shuts
25 down, the phone dial up, if that doesn't work, the
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 50 of 120
50
1 Zone 2 plant will call me.
2 So I have two phone —— I'm going to get
3 two phone calls now instead of one. Any time the plant
4 goes down, the plant that it occurs will call me and the
S Zone 2 plant will call me.
6 MR. PEREZ: You're referring to a new
7 modification that you did?
8 MR. HALL: New programing, yes.
9 MR. PEREZ: Okay.
10 MR. SILVAS: Who is writing that program?
11 MR. HALL: SAIC.
12 MS. HANNAPEL: Wasn't there data from
13 other systems like this indicating that perhaps you
14 should have had this in place already?
15 MR. HALL: When you say data from other
16 systems
17 MS. HANNAPEL: ?e11, yeah.
18 MR. HALL: When we put systems in, we
19 research the equipment. We don't have the ability to
20 take data and research and find out, okay, who's bought
21 these systems. What have you done? What we do is we do
22 as much research as far as the piece of equipment and
23 how it works and the liability of it.
24 And then the engineers that are
25 installing it that design it, they have a background in
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 51 of 120
51
1 what's been working where and what they worked with
2 before. And that's the only mechanism we have for
3 saying, okay, we're using this because we this
4 particular engineer has used this in other plants. It's
5 been successful, they haven't had problems with it, and
6 that kind of deal.
7 And that's why, like I say, the system
8 that we keep talking about worked. It never failed.
9 The only failure I have was the computer glitch that we
10 don't know how it happened. p
11 MR. QUINTANILLA: You mentioned the word
12 reliable.
13 MR. HALL: Yeah.
14 MR. QUINTANILLA: Apparently, this wasn't
15 100 percent reliable.
16 MR. HALL: There's nothing 100 percent
17 reliable, sir.
18 MR. QUINTANILLA; Some of our spaceships
19 that are going up, that's the goal, is to make them
20 100 percent reliable.
21 MR. HALL: The one that blew up? I have
22 100 percent goal, too. But let's be realistic.
23 MR. QUINTANILLA: As long as you have
24 that goal.
25 MR. HALL: I have to have that goal
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 52 of 120
52
1 because you pay me to have that goal.
2 MR. QIJINTANILLA: You better believe it.
3 Not only me, but all of us as tax payers.
4 MR. HALL: That's why I'm here, Is to
5 assure you that I'm doing everything I can to meet that
6 goal.
7 MR. QUINTANILLA: Which brings up the
8 next question. How much did it cost to construct that
9 East Kelly plant that you have where the computer
10 tailed?
11 MR. HALL; Right around a million and a
12 half.
13 MR. QUINTANILLA: A million and a half
14 dollars.
15 MR. HALL; That includes the wells and
16 the field.
17 MR. SILVAS: Going back to your program,
18 since you have the first one written by SAIC and it's
19 you updated it versus being written by the same company,
20 was there any competitive bid process to put that out?
21 MR. HALL; No.
22 MR. SILVAS: How was that company
23 selected?
24 MR. HALL: They were my O&M contractors,
25 and SAIC is known for their IT. They primarily are an
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 53 of 120
53
1 IT and computer company. And the program didn't fail.
2 Tha computer glitch failed. The program has been
3 evaluated, and everything was set up properly and the
4 programing was proper.
S MR. SILVAS: You just said not to
6 100 percent. How could you say that's 100 percent if it
7 failed?
8 MR. HALL: I didn't say it didn't fail.
9 I said the programming didn't fail. The programing
10 showed it was right. There was a glitch that occurred.
11 It occurred because of an electromagnetic glitch in the
12 computer —— a magnet or a mechanical failure in the
13 computer.
14 MR. SILVAS: What kind of computer do you
15 run?
16 MR. SHENEMAN: What brand?
17 MR. HALL: I don't know off the top of my
18 head what's over there right now. I have three
19 different plants. I've had three different computers,
20 as those go out. I know that we have a Dell in one, but
21 I don't know specifically what's in that plant. I can
22 get that information for you.
23 MS. LAGRANGE: You work there, and yet
24 you don't know what you have there?
25 MR. HALL: I have a lot of equipment. It
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 54 of 120
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7
8
9
10
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12
13
14
15
16
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18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
changes routinely
can't off the top
equipment I have.
out in the field.
MS.
that okays all the
computers?
yes, to answer
if you're asking m
it. Nobody can do
because we
of my head
I've got
I can't t
LAGRANGE:
purchases
tegrity,
is
system.
concerned
If I was
54
upgrade routinely. And I
tell you every piece of
15,000 pieces of equipment
ell you that.
Okay. Are you the one
of equipment, say even
They come down and they --
This is my last
your charts there and also
MR. HALL:
your question.
MR. QUINTANILLA:
question. In the bottom of
in the cover of your presen
Service, and Excellence. I
something that was not soun
So integrity wasn't in the
Something was wrong. Servi
service that was being done
potential failure. So, the
tation,
ntegrit
d in th
system
cc, the
did no
refore,
part
we
oh
you have In
y apparently
at —— in the
or something.
—— wasn't ——
t detect the
we didn't have
icular case.
're not soothsayers,
in the computer is as
the
—— a
excellence in this
MR.
and to try to anti
-- inHALL:
cipate
this
Well,
a glit
No, I can't do
about integrity,
e if we can do that.
that.
MR. QUINTANILLA: I'm just
service, and excellence.
FEDERAL10100 REUNION
PHONE;
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 55 of 120
your goals
MR. QUINTANILLA
here, whatever 1
system, the building
up to
21
Why
I
th
comes out
don't know
And that' 5
er
over
any
and
engineer.
backup
MR. HALL:
system that checks for errors
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going to
here, on
rate you on our written
integrity,
up to 100
55
service,
percent
and excellence,
to
MR.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
100
it
HALL:
pe rcent
wasn't
Well, I agree.
th at
It
the
wasn't up
system was not to 100
As long
se
as y
rvi c e,
ou
percent.
and
agree
t 1
And
5
excellence
no t
that integrity
MR
physicallyHALL: But
possibleyou can ask.
every
is
effort
being made.
manually
That'sand
MR
the best
QUINTANILLA:
that
MR
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
HALL: Yes
over
MR
good.
again
GARCIA:
about a
aren' t
computer
I hear this story
th at
glitch,they any backup systems
a
of
computer
the system?
glitch.to analyze
MR. HALL:
glitch
em, sir
I'm not a comput
the answer to that question.
MR.22
23
24
25
I don't
GARCIA:
got
Well, they do
a
MR.
They do?
have
GARCIA:
them.
Even in my S y 5 t em,
10100 REUNION PLACE, STE.
they have
and checks for
TEXAS 78216
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 56 of 120
56
1 glitches and checks for overrides. In fourth—year
2 computer classes, they will tell you that they design
3 checks and balances for your computer for glitches, for
4 overrides, for erasers, and for problems with a
5 computer. And when one computer fails, there's usually
6 a computer to back up and override and warn somebody
7 that thereTs a computer failure going on with one
8 computer. It's built into the building computer
9 engineering system. And that's one of things that
10 should have been considered and not just depend on one
11 computer all the time that caused —— that you claim
12 caused this problem.
13 MR. HALL: Okay.
14 MR. SHENEMAN: Do you have a quality
15 program —— quality assurance, manual, and quality
16 control manual?
17 MR. HALL: For?
18 MR. SHENEMAN: For this operation.
19 MR. HALL: That's our inspection
20 checklist, yes.
21 MR. SHENEMAN: Do you have a quality
22 control manual and its companion is the quality
23 assurance manual and its companion is the quality
24 control manual?
25 MR. HALL: That's all part of my
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 57 of 120
1 operations and maintenance manual.
57
4
5
MR. SHENEMAN:
audit from outside?
the outside.
MR. HALL:
do you stand
No, I do not get audited from
6 MR. SHENEMAN: That's something you might
8 things that you don't see.
9 MR. HALL: That's true.
10
11 impressed with
MR. SHENEMAN:
what you do.
I've always
You know, as
been very
a matter of
12 fact, when this came up, I was astounded that something
13 got spilled. I can't imagine such a thing unless it was
14 sabotage. Did you look into that?
15 MR. HALL: Well
MR. SHENEMAN: I can't imagine anything
17
18
getting
you.
past you. I know you well, and my hats off to
I appreciate that.
20 systems are mechanical. Computers are mechanical.
22
Stuff breaks,
going to break down.
I don't care what you have.
24 wouldn' t say that so much. It's really starting to
25 become repetitive that nothing failed. We pay tax
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2
3
And then
7 want to include sometime, because other people see
16
19 MR. HALL:
21 folks.
But the
23 MR. SILVAS:
It's
First of all, I wish you
TEXAS 78216
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 58 of 120
58
1 dollars, and we don't pay for these systems to fail.
2 MR. HALL: You pay for them to work the
3 best that they oan work.
4 MR. SILVAS: We pay for them to work.
5 MR. HALL: All right.
6 MR. SILVAS: Secondly, the other thing is
7 are you ISO certified?
8 MR. HALL: Am I ISO certified?
9 MR. SILVAS: Your operation.
10 MR. HALL: No.
MR. SILVAS: You might want to look at
12 that.
13 MR. ROB: I've got a question real
14 quick. How many plants do you have? And with all of
15 those plants, how many people do you have actually
16 working for you that work at these plants?
17 MR. HALL: I have three plants currently,
18 and I have three people that work plants. And I have
19 six field technicians that work the field and assist the
20 plant personnel and maintenance that needs to be done.
21 MR. ROB: And those six helped you with
22 that spill?
23 MR. HALL: Yes.
24 MR. ROB: And that's where you got your
25 free work?
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 59 of 120
59
MR. HALL: Yes. Well, it's not free
2 work, but it's already in the budget. It's not
3 additional funding. Like he mentioned, it does take
4 them away from their regular jobs, but they make it up.
5 MR. ROE: Okay.
6 Ms. LAGRANGE: Everything that you buy,
7 does it go out on bids?
8 MR. HALL: No. There's certain
9 requirements by the AFRPA that requires us to take and
10 bid certain items when we need those numbers then we
11 have to bid it. Until we reach that point, we don't.
12 MS. LAGRANGE: Okay. And your budget,
13 how much is allotted for salaries and for equipment?
14 MR. HALL: I don't know that number off
15 the top of my head. I can get that information for
16 you. Do you want it just for that plant or the total
17 operation?
18 Ms. LAGRANGE: Total operation of the
19 plants, salary ——
20 MR. HALL: You say plant or plants?
21 MS. LAGRANGE: Plants.
22 MR. HALL: All of them? Okay.
23 MS. LAGRANGE; What's divided in salary
24 and how much do you spend on maintenance and parts.
25 MR. HALL: I can get that information.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 60 of 120
60
1 MS. LAGRANGE: Okay.
2 MR. HALL: Those aren't numbers I keep at
3 the top of my head.
4 MR. SILVAS: Are you aware that SAIC has
5 been taken to court regarding padding contracts for the
6 government?
7 MR. HALL: Yeah.
8 MR. SILVAS: Are you aware that SAIC also
9 had settled out of court to keep those findings
10 confidential?
11 MR. HALL: No.
12 MR. SILVAS: SAIC is a Virginia-based
13 company?
14 MR. HALL: Yes.
15 MR. SILVAS: And they also have an office
16 here in San Antonio off of Highway 90?
17 MR. HALL: Yeah.
18 MR. SILVAS: How long have you been with
19 them?
20 MR. HALL: They've been working
21 operations maintenance since '96 when I first took over
22 operation maintenance.
23 MS. LANDEZ: For clarification, Bill is
24 an Air Force Real Property Agency Employee. He's not an
25 employee of SAIC.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 61 of 120
61.
MR. HALL: What we know happened. And
this is the questions that were asked previously. At
11 p.m. on the fifth, Uv/ox skid shuts down because of
low flow. We already talked about that. The time is
recorded on the computer system that's built into this
W//OX skid, not the computer system that failed.
When we turned the system back on, it
showed us two things. It showed me the flow that was
going through at the time of the spill, and it showed me
when these systems shut down. The recovery systen is
not shut down at the computer. We already talked about
that. Groundwater from the recovery wells that were not
shut down continued to arrive at the plant.
Okay. 45,900 gallons were released. The
way this was figured was we took eight and a half hours
times the 90 gallons per minute. And those of you that
do math pretty quickly realize that this times this does
not equal that. The reason is because I didn't put down
if this is gallons per minute, this is the hours, you'd
have to multiply this times 60 to get that.
That's how it was determined that from
11 o'clock when the UV/OX skid said it was shut down
'til the time we shut it down 7:30, the eight and a half
hour time period, running at 90 gallons a minute, which
is what that recorded at the time of this shutdown,
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 62 of 120
62
1 that's the amount of water that we put out that
2 overflowed into the -- into the building.
3 In the building, do the measurements of
4 the building, depth of the water, it was determined
5 9300 gallons remained in the building itself. Simple
6 subtraction shows you what didn't remain in the building
7 left. This is the amount, the 36,600. Any questions on
8 how we got that number?
9 MR. SILVAS: All right. To begin with
10 how exact is that first figure?
11 MR. HALL: Pardon me?
12 MR. SILVAS: How exact is the first
13 figure? The 45,000.
14 MR. SHENEMAN: It's either eight and a
15 half or stronger.
16 MR. PEREZ: Mathematically.
17 MR. HALL: It's based on the flow meter.
18 MR. SILVAS: So you're saying it's an
19 exact amount?
20 MR. HALL: Yes.
21 MR. SILVAS: Very good. The 9,000
22 gallons, those 9,000 gallons seeped outside the
23 building?
24 MR. HALL: No. It was 9,000 that was
25 still in there in the morning when we got there.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 63 of 120
63
1 MR. SILVAS: But your statement that the
2 building can contain -—
3 MR. HALL: Okay. Yes. It was there.
4 And it was staying there.
5 MR. SILVAS: 36,600 is what?
6 MR. HALL: Is what left the building.
7 MR. STLVAS: Went in the ground?
8 MR. HALL: Yes.
9 MR. SILVAS: Before we had discussions on
10 the sampling process, you stated sampling was done after
11 the water had been released, correct?
12 MR. HALL: Before and after. We had
13 samples of water going out of the building in the
14 effluent on the 4th —— morning of the 4th. We took
15 samples of the influent coming in after the system was
16 restarted on the 6th. We have both analyses. And
17 there's not a lot of difference in the two numbers.
18 MR. SHENEMAN: These contaminants, POE,
19 what are they?
20 MR. HALL: The four primary concerns are
21 TOE, POE, the one on your list.
22 MR. SHENEMAN: How soluble are they in
23 the first place? Not ver, I wouldn't think.
24 MR. HALL: I'm not sure of the answer to
25 that guestion. The solubility of the chemicals in the
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 64 of 120
64
1 water are?
2 MR. SHENEMAN: Yeah. I don't think
3 they're very soluble.
4 MR. HALL: The key is the volatility.
5 You'll hear that term used in a little bit when we talk
6 about the cleanup of the building, which was a question
7 of concern and was a good question of concern. We'll
8 address that. The volatility is a very important part
9 of that.
10 MR. SILVAS: To begin with, now, you're
11 saying most of the water, 9,000 gallons, is oontained in
12 the facility, correct?
13 MR. HALL: Yes.
14 MR. SILVAS: Now, just looking at the
15 photos here, you have hanger doors or garage doors that
16 open to that facility.
17 MR. HALL: Uh-huh.
18 MR. SILVAS: Are they water-tight sealed?
19 MR. HALL; No. That's why we got 36,000
20 out the door.
21 MR. SILVAS: So yeah. Correct. But I'm
22 saying there's 9,000 gallons you're claiming stayed in
23 the building?
24 MR. HALL: Yes.
25 MR. SILVAS: Right. So you're saying
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 65 of 120
65
1 that floor is the floor level? Is it concrete?
2 MR. HALL: No. It's recessed down, and
3 it's
4 UNIDENTIFIED: It's a bathtub.
5 MR. HALL: Yeah. Thank you. That's the
6 highly technical word I couldn't think of.
7 All right. Next slide. Here's some
8 pictures of the actual site when we got there. These
9 are pictures taken before I got there from the time
10 Mr. Poole called me. One of the requirements that TCEQ
11 has, we get pictures as soon as we can as well as all
12 remaining numbers and stuff we provide to you. What
13 I've done is I give you pictures of all four sides of
14 the building showing you -- you know, here's the garage
15 door you're talking about. It came out
16 This is, you know the side —— this is the
17 north side of the building. There's a door right over
18 there it came out. Next slide. And the other two sides
19 of the building. Okay. Next slide.
20 All right. These numbers, these are the
21 numbers that we've been talking about. Four chemicals
22 of concern that we're treating this water for. Now, the
23 numbers that you see hereare the influent numbers.
24 These are the numbers of the level of contamination of
25 the water coming into the plant before it's treated.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 66 of 120
66
1 okay. The numbers that you see here are
2 the numbers that TCEQ tells us that the water has to be
3 treated to in order to be put into six—mile into our
4 outfall that goes to a six-mile radius. You'll notice
5 that all of these numbers are smaller than these
6 numbers. Any questions?
7 MR. SILVAS: Why is the water drained in
B the creek and not the sewer drains?
9 MR. HALL: Because —— that's one of
10 questions, if you remember, you asked about that when we
11 were on our tour. SAWS will not allow that because the
12 water is too clean to go through their system and it'll
13 kill their treatment. And that's a fact. I've seen it
14 happen.
15 MR. SILVAS: What standards are you
16 cleaning it to?
17 MR. HALL: The standards that are set by
18 TCEQ.
19 MR. SILVAS: Drinking water standards?
20 MR. HALL: No.
21 MR. SILVAS: What standards?
22 MR. HALL: They're surface water
23 standards, because that's where we put the water.
24 MS. LAGRANGE: Do you have any outside
25 security?
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 67 of 120
67
MR. HALL: The base -- the base has the
ty that drives around and checks all of
f there's anything that goes on, to give
e, someone ran into my fence on Military
g this weekend. They called me and says,
into your fence again. It's no
I had one car that hit my fence
that opened it up and we had to g
re measures and re—secure these a
But all these areas are fenced
And Triple J Security does drive by
and watch them. And they -- trust me.
my number.
MR. SHENEMAN: They
MR. HALL: Uh-uh.
MR. SHENEMAN: This
MR. HALL: Yes . But I don't have
ir schedule is, and we don't depend
k md of thing. They're looking for
MR. SILVAS:
surveillance or any kind of
MR. HALL: No
MR. SILVAS:
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Triple J Securi
these areas. I
you an exampl
Highway dunn
Hey, they ran
it's dented.
months back
do some secu
locked.
plants
me got
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t open, but
several
et out and
reas.
in and
these
They've
didn't catch this?
third shift?
happened in their
idea what the
to check that
security.
any
on them
Do you have any video
surveillance?
pe
Couldn't you hook up some
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 68 of 120
68
1 kind of surveillance to your computer to see actually
2 what's going on in your site?
3 MR. HALL: I have not had a need for
4 that.
5 MR. SILVAS: I'm asking if it's possible.
6 MR. HALL: Oh, sure, it's possible. But
7 as a taxpayer, I would think you'd wonder if I was
8 wasting your money if I did. Try to look at this both
9 ways. I have to look at you and tell you, number one,
10 I'm doing the best I can to treat this water and make my
11 plant efficient. But at the same time, I have to look
12 you in the face and tell you I'm not wasting your money.
13 There's a line there that I have to walk, and I try very
14 hard to do both. And I don't mean just you. I mean
15 everybody in this room and everybody that pays taxes.
16 MR. PEREZ: Can you try to put it in the
17 budget for this coming year?
18 MR. HALL: For what?
19 MR. PEREZ: Try to -- some cameras to -—
20 MR. HALL; I don't see a need to do that.
21 MR. PEREZ: Really?
22 MR. HALL: If my plant has gone down, my
23 plant has gone down.
24 MR. PEREZ: Could you --
25 MR. HALL: Let me finish. I'll tell you
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 69 of 120
MR.
MR.
69
where I'm headed
PEREZ:
HALL:
times or more when a shu
responded to come out.
mechanisms have been put in.
MR. SHENEMAN
get -- do you live to the p
MR. HALL: I
Go ahead.
That I've been called a
tdown of the plant occurs
Since all of since all
dozen
I've
these
MR. SHENEMAN:
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plant --
goes down,
away. He
He's five
minutes
c 0 nv e r s at i
know him.
his senior
of college
the RAB.
How long does it take to
lant?
can have someone at the
You.
11, it takes me 30 minutes.
From where?
om 281 and 1604. My plant
an that's five minutes
ight off of Kelly property.
can get there in five
I sat and had a
vening. Some of you may
when he was going through
d the first couple of years
MR.
MR.
MR.
I have
lives ri
minutes
And he w
on with
He used
in high
HALL: We
SHENEMAN:
HALL: Fr
a technici
ght down r
away. He
ill do it.
him this e
to be ——
school an
he used to sit out there and be a part of
MR. PEREZ: If I can finish?
MR. HALL: Yeah. Go ahead.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 70 of 120
70
1 MR. PEREZ: I cover part of the terrace
2 part on the - and I cover the policing and I cover the
3 whole area. And I do mostly the air-conditioning fixing
4 and all that It's not that hard. It's not that
5 expensive having cameras and keeping up to what's going
6 on. It's not that expensive. Y'all should check it
7 out.
8 MR. HALL: Okay. I'll do that.
9 MR. PEREZ: I check all the rooms. I
10 carry keys —— four different areas that I carry keys.
11 MR. HALL: I'll look into it. You bet.
12 MR. PEREZ: And I know. I deal —- work
13 around, and so I keep these cameras. ItTs really —— it14 can be done.
15 MR. HALL: I will look at that. But I'm
16 not going to sit here and tell you I'm going to do it.
17 I'll look at it, and evaluate it and I'll see if it's
18 MR. PEREZ: Try to get it in the budget.
19 MR. HALL: —- worth the taxpayer's money
20 to do that.
21 MS. PEREZ: I'll leave it to you, sir.
22 MS. GARCIA: Nancy Garcia, alternate for
23 Dr. Ruben Martinez, UTSA.
24 I think what we need to do is think of a
25 plan for taking corrective action. That way we have
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 71 of 120
71
1 we can prevent this type of, you know, accidents or
2 incidents from happening again. So if it has to take
3 surveillance cameras or if it has to take some other
4 form of solution, then we need to come up with that
5 solution. Not only to give us peace of mind for the
6 community members that live in that surrounding area,
7 but also for you, since you're the one mainly in charge
8 of that.
9 So if you can come up with some type of
10 solution or some type of dialogue to where we can come
11 to an agreement. Okay. This is a serious issue, and
12 these are maybe the corrective actions that maybe you
13 should take or maybe we should start looking into, given
14 our perspectives, given your perspectives, your
15 experience. And then also bring in the security people
16 that do that —- that do the security work and see what
17 they suggest. I mean, it's not their job basically.
18 Maybe it's not written in their duties. But from what I
19 hear, it's rather important for the RAB community
20 members. I'd say we come into conversation and find ——
21 find a solution without expensing everything on
22 taxpayers. You know, yes, it's going to come through
23 there.
24 MR. HALL: Well, the important thing
25 MS. GARCIA: The solution would come
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 72 of 120
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looking into
that you use
something th
of spill or
situations,
next year, 5
going to end
no solutions
mechanical
about the
mechanical
you instal
down. Yoll
a spill. It'll
MS. GARCIA:
the eguipment
and see if ma
at takes those
what have you.
you know. Some
omething worse
up in the same
and saying, Yo
errors. I'm sorry.
't personally, not f
d enough answer. So
MR. MILLER: Why
secondary system you
system shutdown, the
led and the mechanical
kind of lost focus a
or me.
that' s
don't
have instal
redundant
switches
second ago.
and I
going
spill.
0
going
gest
again
led, the
system that
to shut it
going to
be
MR. HALL:
through.
have the same goal.
security—wise, it's
to prevent
72
You
good
Everybody in this room
know, the cameras,
for security. It's not
tell me that I have a
Or maybe
or the typ
ybe we can
measures t
Or maybe
thing far
can happen
road, in
u know wha
That'
you can start
e of technology
come up with
o prevent this type
even worse
down this year or
And then we're
the same path with
t? You know
s not going t
That's not
what I sug
you explain
be
to
-- I don
be a goo
be putting in
installed we'r
as of this afternoon —— they will
e hoping by Friday —- is a simple
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 73 of 120
mechanical
and nature.
system that works basically on
If the electricity goes off,
73
down
The
is d
to w
elec
electricity
the pumps shut
• If
system
own.
ork.
tricity
the electricity goes off, it doesn't matt
is not going to work because the whole s
So two things have to work for this new s
Nature, which always works, and simple
er.
ystem
ystem
What
computer stuff, and
between the flow an
electrical current
is when this mechan
down the electricit
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wi 1
we'
d th
that
ism
y th
Now, tha
led that will be
e will be supply
at will be on th
basis So that
up. that's
ant. re set
like said,
ing ke it
s. see a
instal
that 'a
And th
weekly
be set
that pl
because
We're go
the area
1 happen is we bypassed all the
ye made a simple wire connection
e shutoff valve and the
goes to the field. What happens
reaches a certain level, it shuts
at goes to the wells.
t's the new system that will be
added to the inspection guides
ing to you, as you've requested.
ere. They will be checked on a
's how that mechanism is going to
going to be set up in not just
ting it up in all the plants
it was a learning curve for us.
right not only there, but in all
hand over here?
Yes. I have just
on your statement there.
And
We'
you
to ma
Did I
MR. QUINTANILLA:
I'm concerned there
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 74 of 120
74
1 groundwater influent concentrations meet the allowable
2 discharge requirements.
3 MR. HALL: You should be excited about
4 that.
5 MR. QUINTANILLA: Yes, I am excited about
6 that. Why are we doing this if it's already meeting the
7 TCEQ requirements? Why are we running it through the
8 system?
9 MR. HALL: I've been waiting on that
10 question. Who's going to field that question?
11 MR. WEEGAR: Well, the Kelly cleanup --
12 groundwater cleanup project has limits on where they're
13 going to send the groundwater contaminants. The purpose
14 of these systems is to clean up the groundwater. The
15 groundwater has a much lower cleanup value than what the
16 surface water discharge standards are.
17 So while they may be sending water out to
18 the six—mile creek or the other plants, to Leon Creek,
19 that are below what the surface water standards are, the
20 influent that these systems, the groundwater recovery
21 wells and whatnot are capturing still in many cases are
22 above the drinking water standards.
23 So while they may be below the surface
24 water quality standards, there's systems to recover and
25 treat the contaminated groundwater.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 75 of 120
75
1 MR. QUINTANILLA; In other words, you're
2 being very strict, to make sure that you're doing the
3 job right.
4 MR. WEEGAR: That's what you pay ne to
5 do, Armando.
6 MR. HALL: That's absolutely right.
7 MR. GARCIA: I want to address your
8 question about your involvement, your representative
9 involvement, and everything else. Let me tell you,
10 there is bad riff between these people. That are not
11 responsive to us. They do not let us participate in the
12 base cleanup committee meetings and decisions and let us
13 know about all the decisions they make.
14 You and other members, including your
15 teacher, were not properly trained. When I was trained,
16 I was trained by the previous director. His name was
17 Patrick McCullough. We spent almost four or five days
18 getting training. Not four hours. Four or five days.
19 We got copies of all the zones. There's five zones that
20 your teacher should have gotten during her training and
21 all the massive material that were given out to board
22 members that were here since the beginning.
23 These people have not been trained, and
24 it's the AFRPA's fault. These people will not cooperate
25 with you. You can expect that. Why do you think I
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 76 of 120
criticize then all
material and we're
issues. And there
system that a real
76
Ab
pump
pump
put i
ants
one
atio
good
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the time? Because we don!t get the
not allowed to participate in cleanup
's a lot more besides the secondary
engineer will tell you.
ackup system should be a system floor
drain to the so when that seven—inch level is
reached, the will kick on, throw all that water in
a pipe, and t in an underground storage tank. And
when those t fill up, then you pump it out and treat
it. That's of many systems that chemical plants use
for contamin n. And there are other systems like
that that a mechanical engineer can tell you
besides these simple little silly computer glitch
secondary systems.
There are a lot of mechanical systems
from mechanical engineers. I've studied a lot of
mechanical engineering in my construction engineering
degree. There's a lot of other alternatives.
But as for as you wanting to participate
in base cleanup activities and wanting information,
you're not going to get an answer because these people
are not geared —— they Live in their own selfish world.
They are not geared to wotk with us. That's why I have
to go to Congress and our elected officials to try to
force them to deal with us and work with us.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 77 of 120
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II
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ng our
share of
live in
ing over
come out
u want us
away so much
what the Air
But you have
guys graduate
professional,
employee, as I am
of money.
t from An
little wo
77
dying. How many
lived in this
of all of th
up here that
? We're not
not getting our
all of these.
ir locked up
There's a lot of people
of •your students have grandparents who
area that are dying from cancer because
How many of you have parents that grew
developing diseases because all of this
is?
are
full share
commitmen
their own
getti
full
They
build
don' t
do yo
We' re
twine and
rld in the
there with
and say,
to do?
5 ecuri
What do
ty and all of
you want us t
that.
0 do?
They
What
Look at our meeti
public. Look, Mr.
Force says on this
to have honor as a
from college, you
especially if you
ngs. They've driven
Garcia, we complied with
this, this, and this.
professional. When you
guys have honors as a
become a public
I work with the S
with p
are yo
to exp
eople asking me,
u doing there?
lain what we're
20
21
22
23
24
25
What
And I
going
are
don
to
tate. I have
you doing the
't blow them o
build there.
to
re?
ff.
What
doing
anyth
thing
deal
What
I have
are we
to your
ing they
you do i
freewa
want,
5 you
y. What we're
they're going
learn honor as
FE DERkL10100 REUNION
PHONE:
doing here.
to get. The
a professio
And
first
nal.
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And
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 78 of 120
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Ms.
think
oh to
I'm going fi
the table and
all these hea
come up with
not just a s
sional engine
GARCIA: And
that we have
where we can
be up to the
ght them. I'm
deal with us.
lth issues. I
profession
econdary co
ering ——
I do agree with you
to find the approach
work with them. Now,
—— I
rents
How
man
60s
78
these federal bureaucrats don't know that.
So when I die from cancer -- which I
have, and I've been fighting this for a long time
leave it up to you people to remember your grandpa
that are also dying from cancer because of Kelly.
many worked at Kelly? Look at the obituaries. How
people that worked at Kelly are now dying that were
lifelong employees of Kelly? People dying in their
and 70s, an early death because of cancer and all of
this. Just check the obituaries every day and you'll
see that.
y
And it's going to
generation to say,
make them come to
to make them face
make them face and
like this problem,
backup, but profes
12
13
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21
22
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25
next
going to
I'm going
'm going to
al solutions
mputer glitch
that,
right
maybe
but I
approa
on
—— a
eight years.
MR. GARCIA: I have been trying that for
MS. GARCIA: Maybe I have not been here
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 79 of 120
1
2
at the meetings as often as you have.
Dr. Ruben Martinez has always been.
You know,
Him and I are on
79
3 constant communication. But there's a serious dialogue
4 issue now. I mean, you brought it up. And, you know,
7
so that's the dialogue issue between ——
Community involvement issues
8 MS. GARCIA: Community involvement. All
9
10
those issues that you have mentioned.
we have to come up with a solution.
But we have
All of us have
to
to
11 come up with a solution
12
13 wholeheartedly.
MR. GARCIA: I agree with you
16
let's —— I think that we have to come
agreement and find a solution and not try to -- try
MR. GARCIA: Can we have community
19 involvement?
20
21
22
move on.
MS. GARCIA:
MR. SHENEMAN:
Well, let's do it and let's
Let's talk about that for
23 a second I'm on your side. For a year I didn't know
24 happened here because it was so complex. One night
25 somebody brought up education. Mr. Quintanilla was
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5
6 MR. GARCIA: Professional ethics issues.
14
15
MS. GARCIA: Now which this
17
18
plant spill,
always encounter each other.
to some type of
to
We could do that
10100 REUNION
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 80 of 120
there that night.
said it's hard
Mr. Quintanilla chimed in.
80
creat
kinds
Dr. Smith
ed a conso
of things
I've got it ri
a week from to
anything. It'
to sell.
And here's
rtium of s
And so
ght here.
morrow nigh
S a potluck
Now I'm re
m not going
enough tha
Well, I'm
e on to oth
were asking
of action.
get communi
MR. SMITH:
Well, you're damn right it is.
where you start because we
cholars to start teaching these
for those of you who want it,
The next meeting happens to be
t. You dont have to buy
supper. But I went outside.
ady to go into ZIP Code 78237
to be accepted. I've already
t they won't know who I am, if
1—8, and I'll tell them. And
er resources that we have right
about plan of action. I think
And that goes back -- we've
ty involvement here.
Are we done with Bill? Do
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even though I'
walked through
I'n CIA, FBI.
so then we mov
here. So you
that's a plan
got to try to
you need to talk
like?
among yourselves? What would you
him some more.
MR. SHENEMAN: 1 think we'll beat up on
was there a
surrounding
MR
notif
areas
MR
SILVAS
ication
that th
HALL:
As far as community concern,
in the community and the
ere was a spill?
No.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 81 of 120
5
7
MR. HALL: My requirements are to report
to TCEQ, and there's no one working in that area.
All right.
was responsible for building that facility?
sir?
8
9 constructing it.
Putting the facility up,
MR. HALL:
MR. SILVAS:
Weston constructed it.
Okay. Now, the actual pump
12 itself?
MR. SILVAS: The mechanical treatment
15
16 p
MR. HALL: The ones that purchased it and
MR. SILVAS: The warranty on that
18 facility, how long does it go?
19 MR. HALL: Normal warranty on most
20 equipment that we use, maximum is a year.
21 MR. SILVAS: How long has this equipment
22 been used and where?
23
25 being used?
MR. HALL: Since 2000
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INC.TEXAS 78216
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2
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MR. SILVAS: Why not?
81
MR. SILVAS:
6
Secondly, who
MR. HALL: Who's responsible for what,
MR. SILVAS:
10
11
13
14
MR. HALL: The pump?
ut it in
17
the plant.
Okay.
of the
24 MR. SILVAS: But at other sites it's
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 82 of 120
2
3 such
MR. SILVAS: And have they encountered
4 MR. HALL: No.
5 MR. SILVAS: Are you certain?
6 MR. HALL; Yes
7 MR. SILVAS: How would you know?
8 MR. HALL; Because of our
Excuse me?
inspections.
10
11
12
that
MR. HALL: Because
get, because of those inspections,
of the inspections
we check the pumps
13 and those things every week.
MR. SILVAS: So those inspections are
15 done at other sites you have access to?
20 them for my sites, my three plants.
Right. But what I'm asking,
22 is there other Air Force bases that this cleanup process
23 was used and this mechanical treatment type?
24 MR. HALL: I have no idea
FEDEPAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO,10100 REUNION PLACE,
INC.STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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1 MR. HALL: Yes.
82
9 MR. SILVAS:
we do. The weekly inspections that you asked to
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MR. HALL: Yeah
other than yours.
MR. SMITH: I think he's talking about
MR. HALL:
21
Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. SILVAS:
I only have
25 Are there pump treating systems on other
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 83 of 120
83
bases? Yes.
UV/OX? Yes.
GAO? Yes, I
what equipme
time to pay
time to do i
and do that.
have is -—
k
nt
me
t.
Do I know that some of them are used in
Do I know that some of them are used in
now that they're out there. Do I know
they're using? No. You don't have the
to learn all that, and I don't have the
You're paying me to keep this area safe
And I don't know that knowing what they
MR. SILVAS:
had the same problem would
too.
MR. HALL:
plant in five
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Well, knowing that they've
help you to approaoh that,
I've had one problem in that
years.
MR. SILVAS: Now this makes your seoond
one. This is your first problem ever being in the
site?
MR. HALL: In that plant in that site.
Inside the plant.
MR. QUINTANILLA: Which makes this
question: Row much longer are you going to operate
these plants?
to
that.
we've
that
When we
met the S
you've dis
MR. HALL:
get the ole
tate's requ
cussed many
I don't have the answer
anup to where the State
irements, the requiremen
times as far as MCL and
ts
stuff
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 84 of 120
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to make
here in
more.
continue wha
community in
order that,
are somethin
influencing
All I want i
good job in
t this
vol verne
instead
g else.
all of
S excel
it. An
this
e in
there
of
hat.
to do a
have to
like
down.
84
that. When they tell us they go down, they go
I don't have the answer to that question.
MR. QUINTANILLA: The point is I'm trying
is get out of the box. You know, we're just
our little house. We don't want to find out
of business.
MR. SHENEMAN: Contaminate the property,
it's our business and we're out of business and he's out
questions on this.
MR. QUINTANILLA: I don't have any more
a little bit.
MR. SMITH: Can we let Bill off stage for
MR QUINTANILLA: But I do want to
student was saying concerning
nt. Something needs to be don
of there being confrontations
I'm being blamed as a cause
this. I'm not trying to do t
lence in government. I want
d it hasn't been done, and I
agree with that.
summary.
plus. We
I'm just
We had a $100
'ye got $2,175
looking at the TAPP funding
,000. We got an expended 97,000
left. As to what we can do, I
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 85 of 120
what she
communications down
and communications
law. But it's not
is. Shove it down
You know, stamp it
That's not what we
ely,
I think
d look i
up
get a
Here it
leave it.
k with it.
ward
like
that we can
nto it,
85
think if we can have some training from this $2,175, not
only for the people that are here, the community, but
also for the staff as to how -- what it takes to bring
about was
It's be only
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talking about a minute ago
it should not
• It's got to be communications
across if we were ever going to
just communications down.
your throat. Take it or
or we're going to not wor
want. We want to communicate up
communicate downward, just
want communications across.
're looking for, Ms Hannapel?
MS. HANNAPEL: Absoiut
MR. QUINTANILLA: And
2,175, if you woul
just 1
Kelly
Isn't
ike
does
that
y'ail want to
And we also
what we
get it with this $
please.
Also there's a question of training.
Sometimes we get out of hand because of parliamentary
procedures. We haven't trained the parliamentary. I
think you could take some of these funds to train the
parliamentary. It's onlyone or two hundred dollars.
Why can't that be done? Why can't that be looked into?
That's all I have.
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 86 of 120
MR. SMITH: Okay. Next item on the
3 Modification Update, Compliance Plan
5. Ms. Landez?
MR. QIJINTANILLA:
agenda item in
January. I'm so
MS. LANDEZ: I'm ju going -- I did the
same briefing last month at the RA meeting. For those
of you who weren't there, I'd like to just go ahead and
repeat because it will be important information coning
up or that you'll need in the future. We submitted a
Class 3 modification to the compliance plan for the
Zones 4 and 5 corrective measures implementation work
plan.
agenda is
for Zones
Class
4 and
86
that to be made an
RAB in November.
In fact, I would like
the next meeting for
rry
st
B
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Basically, in April we received approval
of Zones 4 and 5 corrective measure study where the
corrective measures that were chosen for each of the
areas in Zones 4 and S that needed corrective action
were approved by the State. And as required by the
compliance plan, we had to submit a corrective measure
implementation work plan with Class 3 modification of
within 180 days of that approval. And we did that on
October 7th of 2005. And that's required in Section 8—F
of the compliance plan, if you'd like to go and check
that out.
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 87 of 120
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modi fication
corrective a
that's under
305.69—K. An
modification.
for each
these are
Zone 5.
all been
other things
includes the
monitor each
installed.
the Class 3
administrati
we
mom
one
What
mod,
ye re
the
nd
87
And it's also required —— the Class 2
is basically what we're doing is adding
ction program to that compliance plan. A
the 30 —— Texas Administrative Code, the
d Appendix 1 says it requires a Class 3
received
Measure S
been inst
your pack
These
oval fo
• And
d to da
We inc
appr
tudy
alle
et.
are
r.
as n
te.
lude
one of
the sy
And aga
install
the systems that we have
In the Zone 4 CMS, Corrective
oted, all of the systems have
And the costs are included in
d the slide that has the cost
the packet. And then
been approved for
r those systems that have
included in your packet.
you know, one of the
the Class 3 modification
that we'll be using to
that has been
regulatory process for
itted, it goes to
where we are right now.
the systems in
stems that have
in, the cost fo
ed to date are
Also just to let
do identify in
itoring systems
of the systems
happens in the
once it's subm
view. That's
We received a
asking for add
of doing that
letter
itional
and to
from th
in f o rm
submit
e admini
ation.
it by I
strati
We' re
think
ye secti
in the p
right be
on
rocess
fore
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 88 of 120
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until th
working
December
holidays
we're ho
few days
holidays
people t
and want
coming
Al
chief cler
mailing li
FEDERAL10100 REUNION
PHONE:
It w
o try
have
week
re t
that
vac
ill probably be in
not to get it in
a lot of choice.
of December, if n
rying to keep it o
makes it difficul
aticns with their
an
to
're
the
But
ot maybe a
ut of the
t for
families
88
Thanksgiving.
And once it's complete, we will also be
receiving a letter from the State asking us to publish
what is called the notice of receipt of application and
intent to obtain a permit. And that will be a notice
that was placed in the newspaper. And we also have to
have a public meeting within 30 days of the application
being declared administratively complete, and we will
include that public meeting in the notice that we have
to put in the paper.
MR. SILVAS: What date is that?
MS. LANDEZ: We don't know yet. Not
review is done and she startse admin complete
on the wording.
• We're going t
but we may not
ping that first
later. But we'
because I know
hat are going on
to enjoy, you know, Christmas shopping and not
by the
in the
to a public meeting
so therers
k's office
st that we
otice that is mailed out
the folks that are listed
required to submit to
COURT REPORTERS OF SPN ANTONIO, INC.PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216(210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 89 of 120
89
1 state.
2 Okay. After the preliminary decision and
3 the draft permit is filed with chief clerk's office,
4 then a technical review is done by the TCEQ. Then TCEQ
5 often requests us to do a second notice, and it's called
6 the notice of application and preliminary decision.
7 Basically, the State will say, this is what we decided
8 for this permit and also provides a copy of the draft
9 permit and all —- everything that's going to be in it so
10 that you can review it yourselves. And we also put
11 those in the library.
12 And also the notice will instruct you how
13 to submit comments, when to submit comments, what the
14 preliminary decision is, and you can also request a
15 hearing. And it also will indicate in the second notice
16 when the end of public comment period is. Usually it's
17 45 days after that second notice is published.
18 And that's it. As soon as we know what
19 that public meeting date is, we will let you know in the
20 newspaper and probably include a mailer out to the RAB
21 members.
22 MR. QUINTANILLA: You recently had a
23 Class 2 modification. You made a notice and all of
24 that.
25 MS. LANDEZ: Yes.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 90 of 120
90
1 MR. QUINTANILLA: Now weTre having a
2 Class 3 modification. What's the difference between the
3 Class 2 and the Class 3?
4 MS. LANDEZ: The Class 2 is not —— you
5 know, ailows for public comment, but it does not allow
6 for -- and I may be wrong. I'm sorry. It does not
7 allow for a request for public hearing. Mark?
8 MR. WEEGAR: There are three different
9 types of modifications. There's a Class 1, Class 2, and
10 Class 3. Basically, the level depends upon what type of
11 modification that are requested. Class 1 is typically
12 just an administrative change —- change the name, change
13 the facility description. Things like that.
14 The Class 2 is usually again a fairly
15 minimal modification. But in the case of the Class 2
16 that was recently done, anytime a change is being
17 proposed in a corrective action system, like wells are
18 being removed from the system or something like that,
19 federal regulations stipulate that is a Class 2.
20 Class 3 is considered to be a major
21 modification or amendment to the permit. We require
22 that whenever a regulated entity like Kelly or Exxon or
23 whoever is coming before the commission and asking for
24 approval of the final remedial action, that it be done
25 as a Class 3. That allows for a contested case hearing,
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAJ'I ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 91 of 120
request for hearing, and all that kind of stuff in the
prbcess.
91
So basically, it's just —— the
hat is actually being requested
on, whether it's administrative
case
sion
as far
change
These ar
of fumbl
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case, the request for
nal cleanup plan.
her questions?
get corrected
That's what people
for
ust
sin
to
g.
It
differences are w
as the modificati
or in the of this particular
the commis to authorize the fi
MS. LANDEZ: Any ot
MR. MILLER: Can we
copies. e missing a page.
are kind ing around looking
MR. PEREZ: Yeah, I j
This has got like one and two is mis
three and then it goes down the line.
a sense that I saw something confusing.
it and then noticed.
MS. LANDEZ: Okay.
packets that go back out.
MS. LAGRANGE: I would like to make a
request that yourself or somebody review this before you
put it out because it is not acceptable, and I consider
it poor quality, even all the printing. If that was my
employee, she would no longer be my employee.
MR. QUINTANILLA: Three things to
remember, Ms. Landez. This integrity, service, and
ld Armando.
And it's got
was stapled in
And I looked at
We'll do that in the
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 92 of 120
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ence, this
where our
s being put
One thing I wanted to add to
for comments that are
only thing that we will be
questions that relate or
actual application and, in
submitted. We don't -- we
you know, Kelly was a bad
want —— we feel like we need
property values or something
comments that you
directed to that
review. Otherwise
y thank you for
part of the
TCEQ. So just keep
to submit comments
that application
Mr. Silvas, I
excell
that's
that i
92
is what we're looking for because
tax dollars are going, into the work
into it
MR. WEEGAR:
ion. On the
the agency, the
esponse to are
relate to the
e CMI work plan
to things like
you know, we
r, you know,
the presentat
submitted to
providing a r
comments that
this case, th
don't respond
neighbor. Or,
compensation fo
like that.
The only thing -- the
submit on any modification has to be
particular application that is under
the agency -- we'll typically just sa
your comment, but that comment is not
application that's being reviewed by
that in mind. If anyone is wanting
on this, they have to be specific to
that is under review.
MR. SMITH: Thank you.
think you were next.
MR. SILVAS: Go ahead
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 93 of 120
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a new alt
up-to-dat
through 5.
request.
whether you're
updated copies
those plans sa
you expecting
information.
have it but
they
the c
can't
I want every
a RAS member
of Zones 1 t
y. They can'
quality out 0
MS. LAGRANGE:
one to have cop
or alternate.
hrough 5 so you
t even do that.
f little present
And I know I
I know you don
of RAB members
93
ahead.
you mentioned
and
Zones
that
this
the
hat
ies of that,
Revised and
can see what
So why are
ation like
s like giving
anup committee
don't have
MR. SMITH: Mr. Garcia, go
MR. GARCIA: Ms. LaGrange,
the poor quality of this work. Let me tell you,
has been in five zones. Zones 1 through 5. For
longest time, I have been telling these people t
every time we get a new board member,
ernate, that
e copies of
And they
every time
receive revised
we get
leanup plans
even comply
for
with
1
simple
that when they can't even do simple demand
material of information about the base cle
and giving us copies of Zones 1 through 5.
that information.
MR. GARCIA:
There's a lot
don't.
't have the
that should
MR. SILVAS
the State oversees that a
Could you explain why again
site was qualified for a
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 94 of 120
super-fund on the EPA super-fund list?
MS. LANDEZ:
94
It was not a — Kelly Air
It scored
Force Base has never been an NFL ite.
MR. SILVAS: It was qualified.
high enough to qualify. Why is it -—
MS. LANDEZ: My understanding is the EPA
never put it on the super-fund list, and we have a
corrective action permit from TCEQ that's requiring us
to be clean. That's what we're doing.
MR. WEEGAR: Let me try to explain that.
EPA scored Kelly and numerous other military
installations, but many of them were not —— even if they
scored high enough to be on the NPL, they're not placed
on the NPL because the EPA has a policy of deferring
listing federal facilities on the National Priority
List, NPL, super—fund if there's corrective action going
on under some other federal or state regulatory cleanup
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program.
address the
where there
for the cle
willing or
cleanup --
moneys
The NPL was established primarily to
cleanup of contaminated orphan sites. Sites
's either nobody around anymore who can pay
anup or a site where the polluters are not
not able to pay for the cleanup. That
the cleanup of those sites come from federal
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 95 of 120
95
cleanup
long a
S regu
y List
oal
The Kelly
federal fund. I mean, as
a cleanup under the State'
under the National Priorit
typically achieve the same g
human health and environment
groundwater to drinking water
soil as well to protect human
environment.
is being done through
s the cleanup —- I mean,
lar program or cleanup
super—fund process will
which is protection of
-- cleaning up the
standards, cleaning up the
health and the
bein
the
anal
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So whether it was the NPL or whether it's
g done under the State's corrective action program,
end result the cleanup result from that is
ogous.
for the J
every mon
meetings.
didn't put
would like
anuary
th, yo
That t
it mt
to see
MR
MR. QUINTANILLA: I would like to
meeting that we -- the EPA comes
u know. It comes in to our RAB
hey come in and explain to us why
o —-- into Kelly super—fund site.
a presentation on that.
MILLER: We have given that
request
in
they
I
seen it.
scores?
scores.
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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presentation.
MR. QUINTANILLA:
I never have heard the scores.
MR. MILLER: I d
MR. QUINTANILLA:
I never have
What were the
on't know the
Neither do I
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 96 of 120
96
MR. MILLER: But the presentation has
beei provided to the RAB. I can provide you the
letters. I think they provided that response. I'll
look and see if it's still ——
MR. QUINTANILLA: I would like a
presentation.
can't do
people to
who made
the AERPA
Iif we can do it.
from our super-fund
They're the ones
fund. I work for
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MR. MILLER: I'll see
it. It would have to come
give you that presentation.
it. I don't work for super—
side of the house.
MR. QIJINTANILLA: That
to the right person that
t be no, no, no all the t
question. We would lik
siness since 1992 —— or
why EPA did not -- you
y as an NFL site, they n
te. Why?
asking. Go
It shouldn'
legitimate
at this bu
don't know
rated Nell
surplus si
's what I'm
can do it for us.
ime. It's a
e to know. We've been
'82, and we still
know, although they
ever did make it a
MR.
MR.
MS.
comment.
we can do.
all of us,
We al
One
RAB
SMITH: Mr. Silvas?
SILVAS: No. I'm through.
HANNAPEL: I just want to
lked some of us talked
the things that I think we
ers, community members, is
1 ta
of
memb
make a
about what
can do,
advertise
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 97 of 120
what goes
meetings.
97
are cbs
spill?
on in these meetings. These
Does anybody know about the
about the
out to the
Who else
spill?
se peop
knows?
tside this group know
spaper? Was it sent
ity that it affected?
And as long as
n in these proceedings,
We need to notify our
ify chambers of commerce.
affected community, they
e they're paying the bill.
So until we st
ed
Does
Was it
le in
what
o get any
We need
ey're not
community
anybody ou
in the new
the commun
goes o
place.
to not
in the
becaus
think we're going
place for change.
me that. Mr. Weeg
not.
nobody else knows
we're not going t
congress people.
Even though th
really are the
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to g
Mr.
ar i
art doing that, I
et any place. This is n
Weegar, I thank you for
s the one who said that.
don't
ot the
telling
And it's
When did I say that?
In a RAE meeting.
MR. WEEGAR:
MS. HANNAPEL: And I
thanked you at the time.
MR. SMITH: Let me see if I can bring us
back to the agenda and work our way through that.
MS. CODERRE: In your packets this
evening, just a little bit over half way through is a
TAPP funding summary. And what we did to prepare this
summary is bring you up to date. And so we've included
FEDERAL10100 REUNION
PHONE:
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 98 of 120
98
udes info
how much
notice on
em I annu a
uthful --
meeting,
r and ask
way of mak
amount of
$6, 625.
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information on the year of the award going back to the
first TAPE contract and what fiscal year that fell under
as well as the date of the award and also the date the
presentation was made to the RAE.
It md rmation about what
company was hired, and the TAPE contract was
worth. And if you'll there, the original
amount for the 2005 s compliance plan report
review —— that's a mo was over 7,000. And we
discussed it the last that we were going to go
back to the contracto for a best and final
offer, the Air Force ing sure we get the best
product for the least money. And he did
revise his slightly to That contract has been
awarded.
So we will be talking with that
contractor in the next week, making sure that he has the
materials that he needs, and setting up the schedule for
him to make the initial presentation. Historically, the
way this has worked is the initial presentation is given
to the TRS, this meeting that we have here this
evening. And then the final presentation, he'll take
questions and also some concerns, things that y'all key
in on. And then he'll revise, if necessary, his
presentation and make that final presentation to the
FE DE RAL10100 REUNION
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 99 of 120
99
RAE.
H It's important to remember
contractor makes their final presentation
you guys have to okay that they have met
what you asked for. Did they present it
you understand? Did they cover the material
asked
that when your
to the RAE,
the terms of
in terms that
for
compliance
way that y
questions?
be looking
those two
that's it.
them to cover?
plan report?
ou understood
So those are
for when that
presentations
s em
it
answ
you'
in
that you
iannual
to you in a
er your
re going to
to make
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Was it the 2005
Did they explain
it, and did they
the things that
contractor comes
So that's the update
any questions?
Okay.
Are there
we have. And
MR. QUINTANILLA: It shows that we still
have a balance there of how much?
MS. CODERRE: $2,175.
MR. QUINTANILLA: Can that be used for
training of the RAE and the staff on communicating?
MS. CODERRE: When you say training of
the staff, I need to understand what you'rethe RAE and
asking for.
MR. QUINTANILLA: Communications.
Training them in communications and perhaps training
Ms. LaGrange on parliamentary procedures. Can we ask
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 100 of 120
MS. CODERRE:
reference binder real quick.
RAB was provided a binder.
gave it to you spiral bound.
was tabbed out called TAPP.
Assistance For Public Partic
that is the final rule that
this funding can get spent.
permitted to take one member
specialized training.
MR.
there? Because I
I'm just grabbing a
Each member of this Kelly
Not like this. I think we
In here is a section that
TAPP stands for Technical
ipation. And what's behind
was published regarding how
This funding is not
of a RAB and provide them
in there.
It
ILLA:
member?
te
I
sp
ke
br
Does it say that in
in there, what you just
I'll be happy to
m report. What I
skin through this
ecific. What I w
a few minutes to
iefly how it's la
inal rule. Anytime
that to the con —— not to the contractor, but to the
contracting office?
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QUINTANILLA:
cannot find it
It doessaid.
one member and
does say it in there.
That you cannot take
not say it
MS. CODERRE
MR. QUINTAN
train that
MS. CODERRE
after—action i
e time now as
verse of that
u to do is ta
et me explain
This is a f
that in our
to do is tak
chapter and
encourage yo
this. And 1
provide
don't want
to find
ould
go through
id out.
the
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 101 of 120
101
we have to say we
put that out as a
we want to do with
ton summarizing the
d then we actually
basically four
public comment.
t all those
they publish a
they say, hey, here
d and here's our
s about the rule
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federal government makes a rule, first
would like to make a rule. And we
proposed rule. And we explain what
the rule. Then we kind of do a sect
rule. Then we analyze the rule. An
give you the rule. So it's repeated
times. This now —— and it's open for
Okay. So then they ge
comments in, and then they propose ——
final rule. And in this final rule
are all the comments that we receive
response. We might have changed thi
based on this comment. These comments didn't
necessarily apply. However, that is now explained in
the final rule.
And so this document is not as thick as
it seems when you go through it. But if you read the
beginning sections, it gives you a little bit of the
history behind and what the reason was for setting the
rule up the way it was set up. And so back here --
MR. QUINTANILLA: It was set up by
Congress.
MS. CODERRE: -- it talks about -- when
you see the Section Title 32 of the Code of Federal
Regulation, Chapter I, Subchapter M, and then it goes
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 102 of 120
102
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in1 that's where the rule actually begins. And in here
is where it lays out what we can spend the money on and
what we can't. And there are specific rules about what
we can and can't spend the money on.
So if you'll familiarize yourself with
that document that we've provided you, that might help
you to be able to come to us with a request for what you
would like to review and be able to give us your
reasoning based on this document which tells us how we
can spend that money.
Mr. Quintanilla, I think I answered your
question. Was there ——
MR. QUINTANILLA: No, you didn't. My
question was: Where does it say that you cannot provide
training to an individual, to one individual or to a
group of people, like we have here, on communications?
On communicating with each other?
MS. CODERRE: Remember, TAPP itself is
called Technicai Assistance For Public Participation.
This —— this funding source —— this funding process was
set up so that lay people could have the resources
necessary to explain highly technical documents involved
in the environmental cleaiiup process at BRAC bases. It
was not intended to supply continuing education in
communications.
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 103 of 120
ITm reading.
MR. QUINTANILLA:
103
Let me read to you what
that the teohnica
oontribute to the
timeliness of the
contribute to the
the restoration ac
And
And you argue agai
and for us. And y
MR.
side, not ours
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trying
you to
to get at.
argue with us
MS. 000ERRE: Okay.
MR. QUINTANILLA: TAH' objectives are
1 assistance funds will, one,
efficiency, effectiveness, or
restoration activated; and, two,
community awareness and acceptance of
tivities.
that's what I'm
nst us. We want
ou're not doing it.
GARCIA: They're on the Air Force
I told you that.
MR. WEEGAR: What I would suggest maybe
don't know what the process is, but if you could
Sonja, make that inquiry to whoever the
— the contracting officer and ask how this
runs. But it just seems to me rather than you
Quintanilla having a debate over what the intent
RAB rule is, is to bring that request fron the
the oontractinci officers and let them provide a
is —— I
at least
people —
process
and Mr.
of the
RAB to
response
MR. QUINTANILLA:
the contracting officer here and
Or better yet, bring
let him explain it to
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 104 of 120
• CODERRE: Are there any other
lvas?
• SILVAS: Well, it's a comment
est information regarding Wilma Subra,
ired her to give a presentation.
SHENEMAN: We have? When?
• CODERRE: We're looking at the
meeting for that presentation.
g up. And we talked about that.
o make sure that we iron out, were
th Ms. Subra about being available
meeting?
MR. SILVAS: Yes.
MS. CODERRE: Okay. And so right now --
what's on tap for that agenda. It's
I don't mean it that way. Right now
r January 10th is the election of the
o chair, the briefing on the
lan, the if the timing works
ation, the final one to the RAE.
that in the coming days with the
Subra's presentation that's been
the community or by the
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us.
question? Mr.
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MS
Si
MR
regarding the lat
that we have aoqu
MR
MS
January 10th RAB
meeting is fillin
of what we need t
going to speak wi
the January 10th
I was going to say
a horrible pun, and
the draft agenda fo
new RAE community c —
community relations p
out, the TAPS present
But we're negotiating
contractor. And Wilma
requested on behalf of
community.
That
Part
you
for
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 105 of 120
105
1 MR. WEEGAR: What is Ms. Subra going to
2 be making her presentation on?
3 MR. SILVAS: The CMS corrective study
4 reports, January 2005.
5 MR. WEEGAR: The semiannual compliance
6 plan report?
7 MR. SILVAS: Yes, sir.
8 MR. WEEGAR: So the RAE is going to be
9 spending what little TAPP
10 MR. SILVAS: We don't have any money it!s
11 a free ——
12 MR. WEEGAR: No. That's not -- my
13 question is you're going to be spending $6,600 of the
14 roughly 8 or $9,000 TAPP money left to have Clearwater
15 Revival review the semiannual compliance plan report and
16 have Ms. Subra do the same thing?
17 MR. SILVAS: Do you have a problem with
18 that?
19 MR. WEEGAR: I'm just asking.
20 MR. SILVAS: We1re getting the biggest
21 bang for our buck. And a presentation by Wilma Subra,
22 that's what we agreed on. Secondly, Patrick Lynch has
23 done an outstanding job, nore than these other
24 contractors. And if you think that we're doing this
25 just to get a repeat of the sane information, we're
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 106 of 120
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too, please.
The packet o
sure we get
given this.
documents. H
Zones 2—3 CMS
thought that
MS. CODERRE
f information
it back to yo
Ne were stil
y understand
Did I mis
what Ms.
MR. SMITH:
you tomorrow.
MS. CODERRE:
I was
aying,
e provi
e have —
cerned t
one con
going to
not
if y
ding
—t
hat
tra
be
your
You
that.
106
trying to catch information that has gone by
agency's wayside and this agency's wayside.
be there along with everybody else to catch
you'll learn something.
MR. WEEGAR:
MR. SILVAS:
should
Maybe
Thank you, Robert.
I'd like to have it returned
was
Absolutely, Mr. Silvas.
you just gave us, we'll make
u. And I remember you've been
1 looking to get those
ing was those came from the
understand that, because I
Subra was going to talk about?
Yeah. Let me double—check.
Okay. So there might be a
I'll get back to
bit of discrepancy.
MR. WEEGAR:
don't do this. I'm just s
somebody who is going to b
of a document gratis and w
TAPP funding, I'm just con
TAPP money for a review by
another contractor that's
trying to say
ou're getting
a technical review
he RAE has limited
we're spending
ctor, and we've got
doing it free of
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 107 of 120
charge,
limited
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107
make
and
with
one
we 're
you,
is that the best way the RAB can spend their
TAP? dollars? That's all I was saying.
MR. SILVAS; Well, excuse me. Just to
last comment, when you have your SOT meetings
not included to make those decisions along
we make these community
standpoint.
decision on our
really
MR. WEEGAR:
MS. CODERRE:
think Mr. Weegar is
interests of
That's fine.
Mr. Silvas, I'm sorry.
looking out for the best
the
MR
I
community
SILVAS:
believe that, too.
I'm sure you do.
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I know you
-- and
argumentissue
if Ms.
compli
rather
paying
as a way
Subra is
ance plan
cons ider
MS. CODERRE;
to cause an
going to review the
report for free,
having the contr
was not raising this
His question was,
look at another
then
actor
If
semiannual
would the
that they'I am not
misunderstanding you.
document?
RAB
re
$9,
for
000 le
free,
MR. WEEGAR; Yeah.
ft. I'm just saying, ifdoesn't it make sense?
MS. CODERRE: And
was tryin
We've got roughly
we're getting a reviewThat's all I'm saying.
I hardly feel that heg to cause an argument here
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 108 of 120
MS. CODERRE: Thank
fy that question.
GARCIA: Let me
Patrick Lynch and
for us in the past
e past seven, eight
compliance plan has
paying hundreds and
lars for them do that
11 provide this
these two people.
1 comment also on
elly does whatever
you for allowing me
Mr. Garcia?
further clarify this
Clearwater Revival.
and we're satisfied
nine, times that
been done by
hundreds of
work. And I have
108
MR. QUINTANILLA: I see nothing wrong
with this at all. We've got two different sources of
technical information being provided for us, one from
the community for free and one for $6,000, and I think
we will present this to you Mr. Weegar whatever the
findings are ——
Wee gar
I L LA:
Wee gar.
ILLA: Weegar.
Thank you.
LLA:
res
it, and
to make
I'm sorry?
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MR. WEEGAR:
MR. QUINTAM
MR. WEEGAR:
MR. QUINTAN
MR. WEEGAR:
MR. QUINTANI
ion to you, sir as
can comment on
end you a copy
ooked
informat
And you
it and s
is oven
We wi
ult of
we wil
sure K
to possibly clan
MR
issue. We chose
He has done work
with it. For th
that semiannual
CH2M Hill, we're
thousands of dol
FEDERPIL10100 REUNION
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 109 of 120
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109
to be telling these people at AFRPA to write all the
requirements for that report. And because I write all
the requirements for my construction reports, the AFRPA
should be writing all the requirements for CH2M Hill.
We're not wasting our money. AFRPA is
wasting two or three hundred thousand dollars every six
months for
or explain
people are
poor man re
five hundre
a report that doesn't relate to the community
to the community what's being done. And
complaining over 6,625. We even have the
duce it while we're paying two, three, four,
d thousand dollars to CH2M Hill to do a
report that they can't even come and make a decent
n or present it to us in laymen's terms so
understand.
And they
present
people
atio
can
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prof essional?
issue
're compi
It doesn't
aining
worka real
another
hearing.
they're
laymen' s
the RAB
about 6,
that way.
going to come up in the congressional
625
Th
from
is is
What's the
allowed to do
terms? They
resents for
deal
the
don
with CU
report
't meet
p
2M Hill
and it'
these r
that, and the AFRPA
and
s not
equir
does
AFRPA, that
done in
ements that
not write
requirements for them to
They don't even want to
because we ask too many
don't understand it.
present their report to us.
come to our meetings anymore
questions and we tell them we
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 110 of 120
and AFRPA that
scot—free witho
community. And
to have Patrick
with half a mu
report that we
That's why we
congressional
CH2M Hill and
report presen
that they can
throw at us.
to us anymore.
just a minute.
four times, and
the topic.
MS
which report Subra
MR.
0
5
110
ith CH2M Hill
got to go
RAB and to the
o spend $6225
ets away
to do a
deal here?
ust confused as to
us
the last January
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What's the sweetheart deal w
they're not allowed —— they
Ut making presentations to
then everybody is trying t
Lynch do it, but CH2M Hill g
lion dollars every six months
can't understand. What's the
have this.
And this is
hearing, abo
the AFRPA, t
table to the
understand
They don't
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C
going t come up in the
ut what' going on between
hat they an't even make a
community and the RAE members,
all the scientific jargon they
even come make the presentation
MR. SMITH: Excuse me, guys. Hold on
Kyle's next. And we'll get this thing
I wonder how much light we're adding to
CUNNINGHAM: I'm j
is going to brief
SILVAS: That was
disk that was released
MR. SMITH:
that?
But you're going to check
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 111 of 120
it.•
MR. SILVAS:
111
I'm going to double-check on
When's the next disk coming
ary?
SMITH:
In Janu
COIDERRE:
it's not
MR.
out for the plan?
MS.
January. I think
plan report is
The report is
available 'til
MR. SILVAS:
called
February.
i
And that's on the way?
Okay.
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MS. CODERRE: Is t January?
MR. SILVAS: What zones?
MS. CODERRE: The semiannual compliance
the whole thing. The whole shebang.
MR. WEEGAR: I want to try to -- I think
briefed on numerous occasions; but,
requirements that are addressed by the
roundwater compliance plan were established
is in the Kelly groundwater compliance plan
t document is written to address a report to
not a report that is written to the
It is a report on specific items la
been
the
al g
It
Tha
'5
this has
Rodrigo,
semi annu
by TCEQ.
report.
TCEQ. It
community.
their permit.
addressing sp
was issued to
id out in
It's
ecific
Kelly
That
that
ry of
TCEQ
permits that
do. Th
overall
a semiannual report to
requirements in TCEQ's
Air Force Base.
is what that document is
alone. It is a very good
what is going on base-wide
at and
summa
FE IDE PAL
10100 REUNIONPHONE:
designed to
snapshot
and
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KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 112 of 120
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presentations
that is what
MS.
Now that
$350, 0
they're
ts of inf
think that s
doing it as
of time. It
But let me tell yo
these AFRPA people
to all the communi
people you're kill
You
elly
But
to
the
igne
orry
pas
C ume
be examined.
y and paste j
ke one of tho
GARCIA: I
u this: You
should know
tyRAB, to t
ing with all
should and
restoration program
that document is ——
TCEQ and addressed
compliance packet.
d to do.
if that has not
t have not made
nt that comes ou
the
her
I an,
b, ey'r
e $ ,000
nde tand
as publ
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FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS
they should realize that
10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 113 of 120
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you have responsibility not only to put it in scientific
jatgon, but put it in language and present it to the
community, you and AERPA, because we are the ones that
are affected by all of this.
And, furthermore, you're not paying for
it. You're not paying for it. The taxpayers are paying
for it, and the taxpayers should know what's going in
that report. And we should not be having to spend a
measly sixty-six hundred thousand dollars while they're
wasting half a million dollars every six months for CH2M
Hill, and they complain about a lousy sixty—six hundred
dollars.
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You and you have the responsibility.
Yes, we're going to prepare a technical report. We also
have the responsibility to the public and taxpayers that
are paying this report to make the CR2M Hill
responsible. You as professionals need to interpret
this report and put it in laymen's terms so the public
can understand it. That's why you're getting paid so
much money. And they're getting paid so much money to
do nothing but provide egghead jargon for one government
agency for another ineffective government agency and
without any regards to the public. And it should not be
that way.
MR. SMITH: We are a bit past the meeting
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 114 of 120
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you?
the
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lineup that we had.
phase, which reminds
currently scheduled
here. And the next
10th at 6:30.
determined.
election of
We are at the meeting wrap-up
us that the next TRS meeting is
for December 13th at 6:30 right
RAE meeting scheduled for January
An agenda for that is somewhat to be
One of the things that has to occur is the
a new committee co—chair. Final comments?
Motions?
MR. SHENEMAN: Who's running for
committee co—chair?
MR. QUINTANILLA: Let me just say
something. I have been accused of being very disruptive
in these meetings. The people who do not come, the
community doesn't come in because of me, I think that
the people that are accusing me ought to look at
themselves. I think they're the ones that are being
disruptive because they just want to communicate down.
They don't want to hear what the people have to say.
And if the people do say something, we don't want to
hear about it.
MR. SHENEMAN: Who says that about
MR. QUINTANILLA: The AERPA. When
time comes, I will name the people.
MR. SHENEMAN: With each other? Are they
going to the community saying this.
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 115 of 120
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MR. QUINTANILLA: No. They said it to
me.
MS. LAGRANGE: Mr. Quintanilla. If I may
say, sir, you have been the person that has more
information than all of us here besides Rodrigo. If
we're not complaining and we keep repeatedly voting you
in because we want you in this board, I would not be
offended. Now, who are they? Nobody. We still want to
keep you here because you have a role with knowledge,
and I thank you for that.
MR. GARCIA: Don't let this get to you.
You're a fighter. You're from my generation. Don't let
any of this nitpioking crap get to you. We're here to
fight for the community, fight for all the citizens that
are dying because of this. And we're going to make a
difference whether we fight them here or we fight them
in congressional hearings or whether we get these people
fired or whether we bring other types of criminal
investigations in. We haie to fight, and you're part ——
a main part of this fight.
Because these people are not going to
change. They're not going to change their attitudes.
They're not going to work with us. They're not going to
tell us what's going on unless we fight. And it's going
to take public advisement, congressional action, or
FEDEPAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 116 of 120
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1 whatever it takes, it's going to have to happen because
2 thtngs have got to change.
3 And the first thing we need to do is get
4 a leader to replace Antwine, who is going to have an
5 open mind to us like Patrick Mccullough did and work
6 with us and listen to all our comments and provide us
7 information and make us part of planning a future to get
8 rid of all of this and provide federal funding for all
9 of this.
10 Once we remove the big headache,
11 hopefully the rest of his gang will start quitting and
12 then maybe then we can start changing. But don't give
13 up. We have to keep up our fight because we have people
14 dying because of this. And all of these people in the
15 AFRPA don't live in a contaminated neighborhood like I
16 do. They do not care. And that's the thing. We care
17 Just remember that we care.
18 MR. QUINTANILLA: Thank you.
19 MS. HANNAPEL: I would like to second
20 what Henrietta just said. Armando, you're the soul of
21 this RAE. And I would also like to move that we
22 adjourn.
23 MR. QUINTANILLA: Second that. Meeting
24 adjourned.
25 (Proceedings concluded at 8:52 p.m.)
FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 117 of 120
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1 COURT REPORTER CERTIFICATE
2 COUNTY OF BEXAR
3 STATE OF TEXAS
4 I, ARLINDA RODRIGUEZ, Certified Shorthand Reporter
5 in and for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that this
6 transcript is as true and correct a record as possible,
7 transcribed by me through computer-aided transcription.
8 And further certify that I am not a relative or
9 employee or attorney of counsel of any of the parties; nor a
10 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel for any of
11 the parties hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in
12 the outcome of this action.
13 In witness whereof, I do hereunto set my hand on
14 this 28th day of November 2005.
15
16
17
18
19 Arlinda Rodriguez,TexaCSR 7753Expiration Date: 12/01/06
20 In the State of Texas, County of BexarFirm Registration No. 79
21 10100 Reunion Place, Ste. 660San Antonio, Texas 78216
22 (210) 340—6464
23
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FEDERAL COURT REPORTERS OF SAN ANTONIO, INC.10100 REUNION PLACE, STE. 660, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216
PHONE: (210) 340—6464 / FAX: (210) 341—5533
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 118 of 120
KELLY AR # 3226.1 Page 119 of 120
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ADMINISTRATIVE RECORD
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