2013-07-15 stephen heder’s testimony continues€¦ · mcÄmnÐlÉkßrkm

mCÄmNÐlÉkßrkm<úCa

EsVgrkKrBit edIm, IK rcg©M nig yutþiFm’ Documentation Center of Cambodia

Searching for the Truth: Memory & Justice 66 Preah Sihanouk Blvd. P.O.Box 1110 Phnom Penh Cambodia

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STEPHEN HEDER’S TESTIMONY CONTINUES, July 15, 2013, By Simon Crowther of 22

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xN³ eBlGñkTaMgBIrRtÚv)ancat;taMg[eTARbmUlnigkab;Gus.

edaysarEtRbCaCnmaneTaskMhusbnþicbnþÜcenH eTIbExμrbnþCemøóseKedaybgçMeTAkEnøgfμI

epSgeTot. sakSIelIkeLIgfaExμrRkhmeFVIkarCemøósRbCaCntamkaNUt Lan nig rfePøIg.


sakSIbEnßmeTotfa CaFmμtakgsnþisuxEtgEtedIryamnigeFVIdMeNIrCamYynwgGñkCemøós ehIy

eBlEdleTAdl;kEnøgfμI GñkCemøósGs;kmøaMgCagmun Føak;xøÜnQW nigehvht;Camun.

shemFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI GankardkRsg;BIskçIkmμedImbNþwg EdlelIkeLIgfa

kaNUt Lan nigrfePøIgEdldwkGñkCemøósmanlkçN³ceg¥ót. edImbNþwgrdæb,evNIrUbenHk¾

)anelIkeLIgBIkarlM)akepSg²eTotEdlGñkCemøósqøgkat; ehIysakSIbBa¢ak;faKat;)andwg

BIkarelIkeLIgdUcKñaenHCaeRcIndgmkehIy.

Tak;nwgbBaðaPasa sakSI)anelIkeLIgrYcehIyfaKat;GaceRbIPasaExμry:agsÞat;CMnaj;. sh

emFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI ecaTsYrsakSIfaetIKat;)andwgBIBaküvaysBÞmYycMnYnEdl

emdwknaMExμrRkhm)aneRbIenAeBlenaHb¤eT. sakSIeqøIytbfa ExμrRkhm)aneRbIR)as;RKam

PasaxagEpñkneya)ay ]TahrN_dUcCakareRbIBakü {plitpl}. sakSIenAcaMfakmμaPi)al

ExμrRkhm nigRbCaCnTUeTAeRbIBaküenHenAsm½yExμrRkhm. eBlEdl shemFavInaMmuxedIm

bNþwgrdæb,evNI ecaTsYrsakSIfaetIBakümaneRbIenAkñúgÉksarExμrRkhmEdrb¤eT emFavIkar

BarkþI kubeb: )aneFVIkarCMTas;edayeCaKC½y edayGHGagfasakSIrUbenHminmanCasakSI

CMnajenaHeT BIeRBaHCak;EsþgKat;kMBugEteFVIskçIkmμCasakSIFmμtaEtb:ueNÑaH.

emFavIedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI ect v:an;lI ecaTsYrsakSIBIkarlubbM)at;TIpSarrbs;ExμrRkhm.

sakSIbkRsayfaExμrRkhm)anlubbM)at;TIpSartaMgBIqñaM1973 ehIyExμrRkhm)aneFVIkar

hamR)amkareRbIR)as;RkdasR)ak;enAkñúgtMbn;rMedaHeTotpg.

emFavIedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI ect v:an;lI )anbþÚrRbFanbTeTABiPakSaGMBICnCatiPaKticExμr-

\søam. sakSI)andwgBIkarRbRBwtþrbs;ExμrRkhmeTAelICnCatiPaKticExμr-\søam EdlecH

EtlM)akeTA²cab;BIqñaM1975 dl;qñaM1978. sakSI)aneFVIkarbkRsayy:aglm¥itGMBI

plli)akEdlbgb¥ÚnCnCatiPaKtic\søamCYbRbTHenAsm½yExμrRkhmEdlmandUcCa karrwt

bnþwgkarRbtibR½tsasna\søam nigkarCemøósnigbMEbkCnCatiPaKticExμr-\søam[enA tMbn;


epSg²BIKña. sakSIelIkeLIgpgEdr kmμaPi)alCnCatiPaKticExμr\søammYycMnYn)anGnuvtþ

neya)ayRbqaMgnwgCnCatiExμr-\søamrbs;ExμrRkhm.

bnÞab;BIemFavIedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI ect v:an;lI bBa©b;karsak;sYrsakSIGMBIplb:HBal;én

eKalneya)ayExμrRkhmeTAelICnCatiPaKtic\søam elakemFavI Kg; sMGun )aneFVIkar

CMTas;nwgsMnYrenHRbkbedayeCaKC½y edayGHGagsMnYrenHCasMnYrsRmab;sYreTAkan;sakSI

CMnajenaHeT.

enAeBlEdlRtÚv)anecaTsYrBITMnak;TMngmCÄwmbkSnig fñak;Rsuk sakSI elIkeLIgBI sar

TUelx TMnak;TMngCalaylak;GkSr r)aykarN_ nig kic©RbCuMEdlCameFüa)aymYyEdl

ExμrRkhm)aneRbIR)as;. emFavIedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI)anbBa©b;karedjedalsYrrbs;xøÜneTA

kan;sakSI.

Kic©BiPakSaGMBIsarNarbs;emFavIkarBarkþ nYn Ca

ecARkm nil Nun RbFanGgÁCMnuM CRmHsaladMbUg min)anRbKl;evTikareTA[emFavIkarBar

kþIsYredjedalsakSI b:uEnþGnuBaØat[PaKITaMgGs;EdlBak;Bn§½dak;esckþIseRmcrbs;xøÜnTak;Tg

nwgsarNarbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca EdlTamTar[dak;bBa©ÚlPsþútagbEnßmeTAkñúgsMNuMerOg

ehIyGgÁCnMuCRmHsþab;skçIkmμrbs;sakSImñak; EdlmaneQμaHsm¶at; TCW382 .

emFavI hÁIses cab;epþImelIkykbBaðaenHmkeFVIkarBiiPakSamuneK. emFavI hÁIses

niyayKaMRTsarNarrbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca cab;BIkacab;epþImsvnakaredjedalBI

Psþútag BIeRBaHemFavIkarBarkþIrbs; exov sMpn GHGagfaGgÁCMnuMCRmHminGacemIlExSPaB

ynþenHrhUtdl;cb;enaHeT ehIycMnucEdlkat;tecjBIExSPaBynþenHk¾minKYrykmkbBa©aMg

enAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnuMCRmHenaHEdr. emFavI hÁIses GHGagfaÉksaredaHbnÞúkrbs;emFavI

karBarkþI nYn Ca k¾CaÉksaredaHbnÞúksRmab;emFavIkarBarkþI exov sMpn pgEdr. dUecñH

emFavI hÁIses )aneFVIesckþIsnñidæanfa kardak;bBa©ÚlPsþútagrbs;sakIS TCW382 EdlCa


plitkrmñak;rbs;ExSPaBynþ sRtÚvRbCaCn BitCanwgBak;Bn§½nigcM)ac;sRmab;Fanar[man

karkat;eTasRbkbedayyutþiFm’sRmab;cugecaT.

shRBHraCGCJa farIk Gab;Dulhak; EføgeTAkan;GgÁCMnuMCMRmHedayelIkeLIgbIcMNucEdl)an

manenAkñúgsarNarbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca TImYYy sareGLicRtÚnicrbs;sakSI TCW382

EdlRtÚv)anesñIrsuM[dak;CaPsþútagbEnßmenAkñúgsMNuMerOg TIBIr karesIubGegátelIÉksar

edaHbnÞúkEdlmanenAkñúgédrbs;sakSI TCW382 nig TIbI karekaHehAsakSI TCW382 [mk

pþl;skçIkmμenAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnMuCRmH.

kariyal½yshRBHraCGCJaCMTas;nwgkarbBa©ÚlsareGLicRtÚnicrbs;sakSI TCW382 eTAkñúg

sMNuMerOg nigkarekaHsakSI[mkpþl;sakSIkmμ. shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak; bkRsayfa

kariyal½yshRBHraCGCJayl;RsbedayEpñkeTAnwgsMeNIrTIbIrbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca.

shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak; cab;epþImedalelIkeLIgfashRBHraCGCJamankarePJIkep¥Il

eBleXIjkarEckrMElkB½t’manBImnusSmñak;Edl)anbdiesFeFVIkic©shRbtibtþikarCamYynwg

tulakarkalBIelIkmun. elIsBIenHeTAeTot shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak;bEnßmfasakSI

TCW382 KYrEtTak;TgmkGgÁCMnMuCRmHCaCag Tak;TgCamYynwgemFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca

edaysarkareFVI EbbenHsmehtuplCag. enAkñúgsarNarbs;xøÜn shRBHraCGCJaelIk

eLIgfa TCW382 manB½t’manbnþicbnþÜcedIm,Ipþl;[tulakar ehIyshRBHraCGCJa)anBinitüemIl

BItYnaTIrbs;sakSI TCW382 kñúgkarplitExSPaBynþenH. shRBHraCGCJaelIkehtuplfa

ExSPaBynþenH kMBugEtsßitenAkñúgdMNak;kalkat;t. shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak; bEnßm

eTot eTaHbICa TCW382 CaGñkplitExSPaBynþd¾CMnaj;mñak; b:uEnþKat;manCaGñkCMnajBI

Rbvtþsa®sþbkS kmμúynIskm<úCaenaHeT.

shRBHraCGCJaelIkeLIgfa kariyal½yrbs;xøÜn)anbBa¢ÚnÉksarbIc,ab;CUnPaKIEdlBak;Bn§½

kalBIcugs)þasn_. enAkñúgÉksarTImYy enAeBlEdlsYrfaetIsakSI TCQ720 TTYl)aneCaK

C½yGVIxøHBIkarplitExSPaBynþ sRtÚvRbCaCn sakSI TCW382 eqøIyfa {sakSI TCQ720 )an


yl;dwgeRcInEfmeTotGMBIrbbExμrRkhm CageBlmun}. shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak;

yl;kareqøIytbenHhak;dUcCaminGacTTYlyk)ansRmab;RBHraCGCJa BIeRBaHfacemøIyenH

)anbgðajfa TCQ720 min)anBinitüemIlÉksay:ageRcINTak;TgnwgrbbExμrRkhm nigeFVIkar

RsavRCavy:aglm¥it dUcEdlelak ehdðD½r hVIlIB s‘t edvIt eqnl½r nig ebn eKonn;

)aneFVIenaHeT.

CagenHeTAeTot shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak; bEnßmeTotfamanPaBminc,as;enAkñúgsar

eGLicRtÚnicrbs;sakSI TCW382 EdleFVI[shRBHraCGCJa)armÖfaetIB½t’manenHGacTukCakar

)anEdrb¤Gt;. shRBHraCGCJaelIk]TahrN_ edayGankfaxNðTIBIr EdlsakSI TCW382

elIkeLIgfa nYn Ca {minyl;RsbnwgkarseRmc[smøab;GñkrdækarCan;x<s;rbs;rbbln; nl;

. ehIytamEdl nYn Ca caM)an manrdæm®nþIrdækarln; nl; RbEhlCaR)aMmYynak; nigm®nþI

Can;x<s;epSgeTot RtÚv)annaMmkkat;eTasedaytulakareyaFa nigTTYlrgeTasRbhaCIvit.

ehIy nYn Ca minmanmanBak;B½n§enAkñúgehtukarN_enHeT}.

shRBHraCGCJaeqøIbnwgkarGHGagenHvijfa enARtg;naTITI22kñúgExSPaBynþenH nYn Ca )an

niyayfam®nþICan;x<s; {RtÚvykeTAsmøab; ehIyBYkeKsmnwgTTYleTasRbharCIvit}. sh

RBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak; GHGagfaebIeyIgeFVIeeRbóbeFobkarelIkeLIgTaMgBIrxagelIenH sakSI

TCW382 kMBugEtpþl; {Psþútagdk;bnÞúkdl; nYn Ca Cag nYn Ca xøÜnÉgeTAeTot} ehIy sakSI

xøÜnÉgpÞal;eFVIkarbkRsayxusnwgGVIEdlmanenAkñúgExSPaBynþrbs;Kat;.

RBHraCaGCJabEnßmeTotfa sakSIminmanvtþmaneT enAeBlEdl nYn Ca pþl;bTsmÖasn_ ehtuu

dUecñHehIy)anCasakSIrUbenHmin)anpþl;B½t’mancaM)ac;eRcIndl;tulakarenaHeT. shRBHraC

GCJa Gab;Dulhak elIkykbTsmÖasn_CamYynwgviTüú Prague EdlsakSI TCW382 )an

bBa¢ak;y:agc,as;famanEtsakSI TCQ720 eT Edl)anTTYl)ankarTukcitþBI nYn Ca ehIy)an

eFVIbTsmÖasn_enH.


shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak elIkeLIgÉksarTIBIr EdlCabTsmÖasn_rbs;sakIS TCW382

CamYynwgkarEst The Independent. shRBHraCGCJabBa¢ak;faenAkñúgbTsmÖasn_enH sakSI

)anniyayfa GgÁCMnuMCRmHvisamBaØkñúgtulakarkm<úCa minmanlT§PaBEsVgrkkarBit nigkar

pSHpSaCatiCUnRbCaCnenaHeT. enAkñúgbTsmÖasn_dEdrenH sakIS TCW382 bBa¢ak;fa sakIS

TCQ720 GaceFVIbTsmÖasn_CamYynwg nYn Ca )anedayRBmeRBógfanwgminykbT

smÖasn_enHeTAeRbIR)as;edIm,Idak;bnÞúkelI nYn Ca enaHeT ehIyRbsinebI sakSI TCQ720

RbKl; bTsmÖasn_TaMgGs;enaHeTAtulakar Kat;nwgk,t; nYn Ca Caminxan.

shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak snñidæanfasareGLicRtÚnicrbs;sakSIminGacykmkeRbIkar )an

enaHeT. shRBHraCGCJabEnßmfa nYn Ca GacniyaykarBarxøÜnKat; ehIybBa¢ak;fa va

CaerOgminRtwmTal;EtesaHebIsinCatulakar yksareGLicRtÚnicenHmkeFVICaPsþútag BIeRBaH

karelIkeLIgrbs; nYn Ca enAkñúgExSrPaBynþ min)andUcKña nigKaMRTkarelIkeLIgrbs;sakSI

enAkñúgsareGLicRtÚnicrbs;xøÜnesaH.

shRBHraCGCJabBa¢ak;mþgeTot kariyal½yshRBHraCGCJaeFVIkarCMTas;nwgkarekaHehAsakSI

TCW382 [eFVICaskSIeLIgmkpþl;skçIkmμenAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnuMCRmH edaysarEtsakSImin)an

dwgnUvGgÁehtuEdlBak;Bn½§.

EteTaHCay:agNak¾eday shRBHraCGCJa Gab;Dulhak elIkeLIgfakariyal½yshRBHraC

GCJaKaMRTnwgEpñkmYycMnYnéncMNucesñIrsuMcugeRkayrbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca [mankaresIub

GegátelIbBaðaenH. shRBHraCGCJabEnßmeTotfakariyal½yshRBHraCGCJaKaMRTkaresñIrsuM

ÉksaredImTaMgLayEdl)aneRbIkñúgkarplitExSPaBynþenH nigesovePAEdlsr esreday

nYn Ca pÞal;. b:uEnþshRBHraCGCJa eCOCak;fasakSI TCW382 nwgmineFVIkareqøIytbnig

shkarN_CamYytulakarTak;TgnwgsMeNIrenHeT edayehtufasakSIrUbenHmin)aneFVIkic©sh

karN_CamYynwgtulakarkalBIeBlmunenaHeT.


elakshemFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI eBC GgÁ CRmabCUnGgÁCMnuCRmHfa shkarIrbs;

xøÜnKWemFavI sIumu:NUhVt )anbgðajBICMhrrbs;emFavIedImbNþwgrdæb,evNIkalBIsvnakarelIk

munrYcehIy. elakshemFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI eBC GgÁ bBa¢ak;bEnßmfa sakSI

TCW382 minmanCaGñkCMnajenaHeT dUecñHtulakarminKYrekaHehAsakSIrUbenH[mkpþl;skçIkmμ

enaHeT.

bnÞab;mk shemFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNI sIumu:NUhVt ykeKalkarN_ {c,ab;}

mkeFVIkarbkRsay ehIyGHGagfaebIsintulakarminGnuBaØat[emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb:

yksareGLicRtÚnicrbs;sakSI TCW382 eFVICaPsþútag dUecñHtulakarKYrRcanecalnUvsMeNIr

rbs;emFavIkarBarkþIrbs; nYn Ca pgEdr. emFavI sIumu:NUhVt GHGagfasareGLicRtÚnic

minGacykmkeRbIR)as;)anenaHeT. elIsBIenHeTot emFavI sIumu:NUhVt ecaTCasMnYrfa

ebIsinCaGHGagfaKat;min)anniyayBIkarsmøab;m®nþIrdækarCan;x<s;ln; nl; enaH EtCak;Esþg

Kat;)anniyaykñúgExSPaBynþenH ehtuGVI)anCaKat;mineFVIkarCMTas;kalBIBIrqñaMknøHmun?

bnÞab;BIemFavInaMmuxedImbNþwgrdæb,evNIbBa©b;esckþIsnñidñanrbs;xøÜn emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb:

)aneRkIkeLIgehIyeqøIytbfaKat;)ansþab; {karelIkeLIgkarelIkeLIgedayminehutplCa

eRcInEdlCRmúg[Kat;eqøIytb} ehIysUmeTaspgEdrdl;ecARkm sIulevo xatRv:ayt_

edaysarEt {´minGacXat;xøÜnÉg)an¡}. elakRbFanGgÁCMnuHCRmH)anGnuBaØat[emFavI

karBarkþI kubeb: kareqøIytby:agsegçb edayehtufakareRkIkQrtv:aPøam²rbs;emFavIkar

BarkþIenAeBlenHCaGakb,kiriyaminsmrmümYyk¾eday.

TImYYy emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: GHGagfa sakSI TCW382 min)ancat;TukxøÜnKat;faCaGñkCMna

jenaHeT EtRKan;EtmnusSmñak; Edlcg;eLIgmkbkRsaynUvGVIEdlxøÜn)andwg bnÞab;BI)an

GanskçIkmμEdl)anelIkykmkBiPakSakñúgGMLúgeBlsvnakar.

TIBIr emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: bBa¢ak;faExSPaBynþmansar³sMxan;Nas; ehIytulakar)aneRbI

R)as;ExSPaBynþenHCaeRcIndgmkehIy. Kat;bEnßmfa ehtudUecñHehIy plitkrPaBynþenH


KYrRtÚv)anGnuBaØat[eLIgmkpþl;skçIkmμenAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnuMCRmH ehIyCaBiess sakSIrUbenH

GacbgðajBIPsþútagEdlbBa¢ak;fa nYn Ca minmankarBak;Bn§½nwgRBwtþkarN_EdlekItenA TYl

eBaF×éRCenaHeT.

emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: bnþfaebIsinCa nYn Ca minCMTas;nwgkarcab;bBa¢aMgExSPaBynþenHeT

dUecñHkardak;bBa©ÚlExSPaBynþenH CaPsþútagenAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnuMCRmHk¾minEmnCabBaðaGVIenaH

Edr BIeRBaHfakareFVIEbbenHnwgminb:HBal;dl;kic©RBmeRBógrvag nYn Ca nigplitkrExSPaB

ynþenH. emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: niyayfa ebIeTaHbICasvnakaréf¶enHCitnwgbB©ab;Emnk¾

eday b:uEnþminmanmann½yPaKITaMgGs;mincaMeFVIkaredjedalkñúgbBaðaPsþútagenHEdr. emFavI

karBarkþI kubeb: bEnßmfa {eyIgkMBugEtEsVgrkkarBit. ehIyeBlenH eyIgmanskSImñak;

Edl)ancMNayeBlevlarab;em:agftExSPaBynþEdltulakarkMBugEteFVIkarBiPakSa. emFavI

kubeb: bBa¢ak;eTotfaExSPaBynþenHmansar³sMxan;Nas; ehIytulakar)aneRbIExSPaBynþ

enHCaeRcIndgmkehIy}.

ecARkm xatRv:ayt_ ecaTsYremFavIkarBarkþIBIrbIsMnYr. TImYYy ecARkm xatRv:ayt_ etIemFavI

karBarkþIdwgfasakSI TCW382 nwgshkarN_CamYytulakaredayrebobNa. emFavIkaBarkþI

kubeb: eCOCak;fasareGLicRtÚvnicrbs;sakSIbgáb;n½yfaKat;nwgshkarN_CamYynwgtulakar.

TIBIr ecARkmxatRv:ayt_ cg;dwgfaetIRkmsIlFm’GñkkarEstnwgCRmúj[Kat;min[mkpþl;

skçIkmμenAcMeBaHmuxGgÁCMnuMCRmHEdlb¤eT. emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: eqøIytbfacMnucenHnwgEmn

CabBaðaecaTenaHeTenAeBlEdlmankarGnuBaØatþBI nYn Ca. b:uEnþ eBlEdlecARkm xatRv:ayt_

elIkeLIgfasakSIRtÚvEtkarBarGñkpþl;B½t’manepSgeTot emFavIkarBarkþI kubeb: min)aneqøIy

nwgsMnYrenH[)anc,as;las;enaHeT edayelIkeLIgfaenHKWCabBaðaEdlsakSI TCW382 nwg

edaHRsayedayxøÜnelakpÞal;.

svnakarenAéf¶enH)anbBa©b; ehIyGgÁCMnuCRmHnwgbnþsþab;skçIkmμrbs;elak ehdD½r enAéf¶

GgÁar_ TI16 qñaM2013. RbFanGgÁCMnuMCRmHsaldMbUgRbkasfaGgÁCMnuMCRmHnwgecj

esckþIelIsarNarbs;emFavIkarBarkþI nYn Ca enAeBlxagmux. -cb;-

2013-07-15 stephen heder’s testimony continues€¦ · mcÄmnÐlÉkßrkm

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