razgovor interview - skira.hrskira.hr/wp-content/themes/skira/pdf/2018_ca_interview.pdf · croatia...

10 _ CROATIA AIRLINES 3/2018

RAZGOVOR InTERvIEW

CROATIA AIRLINES 3/2018 _ 11

Svjetleći divovi i Kuća svjetla u Puli, tunel Eura-sia, hotel Four Seasons u Azerbajdžanu, hotelski kompleks u uvali Čikat na otoku Lošinju, Hendrixov most u Zagrebu svojim inovativnim i maštovitim osvjetljenjem oduzimaju dah i mame osmijeh na lice. Njihov je autor Dean Skira, dizajner svjetla iz Pule, dobitnik brojnih prestižnih nagrada.

The lighting Giants and the house of light in Pula, the Eurasia Tunnel, the Four Seasons hotel in Azer-baijan, a hotel complex in čikat Bay on the Island of lošinj, hendrix Bridge in Zagreb with its innovative and imaginative lighting take your breath away and put a smile on your face. Their author is Dean Skira, a lighting designer from Pula and winner of many pres-tigious awards.

Piše/By _ Mirjana Brabec

Fotografija/Photo _ Vjekoslav Skledar k. l

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Dean Skira, dizajner svjetla iz Pule,

dobitnik je brojnih prestižnih na-

grada kojima su se ovoga ljeta pri-

družile i dvije nagrade svjetskih strukovnih

udruga: Illuminating Engineering Society

(IES) za svjetlosni dizajn Hendrixova mo-

sta u Zagrebu i International Association

of Lighting Designers (IALD) za projekt

kružnog toka u Puli.

− Svjetlo volim uspoređivati s glazbom.

Oboje je nevidljivo i snažno utječe na

emocije. No dok skladatelj svoju skladbu

može ispisati notama pa je može repro-

ducirati svatko tko zna svirati određeni

instrument, dizajner svjetla ne raspolaže

simbolima kojima bi mogao dočarati svje-

tlosnu kompoziciju koju želi stvoriti − kaže

biti tema njegova predavanja na IALD-

ovu skupu dizajnera u Barceloni. Skira

je vizionar snažne imaginacije, umjetnik

svjetla kojega pokreću strast i ljubav

prema svjetlosnim čarolijama, ali i golemo

znanje i iskustvo koji mu omogućuju da

maštanja pretoči u stvarnost. Sigurni smo

da će to biti tako i s projektom osvjetljenja

Motovuna iako je svjestan zahtjevnosti

ostvarenja projekta te mnogih financijskih,

operativnih i tehnoloških prepreka koje bi

trebalo svladati da bi se projekt ostvario.

S pulskim dizajnerom razgovarali smo

uoči primitka nagrade IES-a u Bostonu za

izniman pristup dizajnu rasvjete uz upora-

bu svjetla kao umjetničke forme u projektu

Hendrixova mosta u Zagrebu, željezničko-

dizajneri svjetla s najmanje deset godina

iskustva u privatnoj praksi.

Tih godina bio je to ekscentričan izbor… − Pa i danas je kod nas tako. U Europi

studiji dizajna svjetla odnedavno postoje,

koliko znam, samo u Njemačkoj, Engle-

skoj i u Milanu. U New Yorku sam sasvim

slučajno susreo dizajnere svjetla s dugo-

godišnjim iskustvom i vrlo sam brzo ušao

u taj svijet, to je za mene bilo otkriće. I da-

nas volim istraživati dubinu svjetla, izvan

forme same svjetiljke. Mi dizajneri svjetla

u biti se bavimo ljudima, a ne stvarima.

Kad ne bi bilo ljudske potrebe da živimo

noću, svjetlo ne bi bilo ni potrebno. Zato

sva svoja predavanja završavam reče-

Dean Skira pokazujući nam svoje rukom

nacrtane skice najzahtjevnijeg projekta

koji je ikada osmislio i opisujući ljepote

zamišljenih vizura.

− Laserski smo skenirali cijeli grad i

napravili simulaciju koja izgleda čarobno.

Pročelja, krovovi, padine, ceste, zidine,

baš svaka kuća − sve je tim projektom

obuhvaćeno. Kroz tu priču htio bih poka-

zati na koji način svjetlo može oplemeniti

postojeću strukturu, istaknuti i podignuti

vrijednost cijeloga grada i omogućiti

ljudima da dožive nešto posebno, a da

pritom stanovnici turistički vrednuju svoj

grad izvan zidina − sa zanosom govo-

ri Skira o svojem projektu osvjetljenja

Motovuna, magičnoga srednjovjekovnog

gradića u njegovoj rodnoj Istri, koji će

ga zelenog mosta preko rijeke Save.

Studij dizajna upisali ste u New Yorku sredinom 1980-ih, kad je malo tko uopće znao da postoji zanima-nje dizajnera svjetla. Što Vas je na to potaknulo? − Tada nisam znao da se želim baviti

svjetlom; želio sam se baviti profesijama

povezanima s arhitekturom i formom, to

je bila moja ljubav od ranoga djetinjstva.

A kad sam otkrio da svjetlo ima formu

koja je nevidljiva ali snažno utječe na naše

emocije, što je paradoksalno, to me jako

zaintrigiralo i privuklo. Na Fashion Institute of Technology upisao sam studij dizajna

interijera jer je to bila jedina škola koja

je sva četiri semestra imala rasvjetu kao

predmet, a predavači su bili profesionalni

01 Hotelski kompleks u uvali Čikat u Malom Lošinju A hotel complex in Čikat Bay in Mali Lošinj

02 Svijetleći divovi u brodogradilištu Uljanik u PuliThe Lighting Giants of Uljanik Shipyard in Pula

03 Inovativni dizajner snažne imaginacije u svojem uredu u Kući svjetlaThe innovative designer of a fertile imagination in his office at the House of Light

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nicom: Svjetlo nije važno za arhitekturu nego za ljude koji u njoj žive. Iako je svjetlost bitna za naš život i snažno utječe na našu psihu, o njoj jav-nost ne zna mnogo. Svojim svjetlosnim kreacijama Vi nas podsjećate na to da funkcionalnost nije presudna. − Točnije bi bilo reći da nije presudna koli-

čina svjetla nego njegova kvaliteta, no ve-

ćina ljudi ne zna koje komponente svjetlo

čine kvalitetnim. O svjetlu razmišljamo na

temelju količine, a kako je količinu svjetla

vrlo jednostavno postići, dizajn svjetla

smatra se nadogradnjom ili luksuzom i

većina ljudi o tome i ne razmišlja. Ako

vam količina svjetla omogućuje da vidite,

vaša je osnovna potreba zadovoljena. No

mnogo je elemenata koji utječu na kvalite-

prostor osvjetljuje, ono je uvijek istog

intenziteta bez obzira na to za što prostor

koristite, no ugođaj proizlazi iz kvalitete

svjetla. Boja svjetla, ne u smislu toga je li

ona crvena ili plava, nego u smislu topline

svjetla, mora odgovarati količini svjetla.

Što je više svjetla, poželjno je da je ono

hladnije, a ako ga je manje, poželjno je da

je toplije. To je povezano s našom biolo-

gijom jer smo naviknuli na to da Sunce na

izlasku i zalasku teži crvenoj, a u podne

je nebo plavo. Ta se biološka ljudska kom-

ponenta neće promijeniti dok živimo pod

Suncem. Jednako je i u noćnim satima:

što je svjetlo tiše, ono je toplije; jako

svjetlo ističe hladniju komponentu. Na te

nijanse jako obraćam pozornost. Svjetiljka

je za mene sporedna stvar, nije mi važan

kopira dosta proizvođača. Svjetiljka Trick

nastala je kasnije i ima potpuno druga-

čiju funkciju. Zahvaljujući Tricku nastala

je fraza grafičko svjetlo, koja se danas

rabi u cijelome svijetu jer njezino svjetlo

omogućuje kontrolirane linearne snopove

svjetla kojima se iscrtavaju linije u raznim

kompozicijama. Kad ugasite svjetlo, te

grafičke kompozicije više nema. Moj

najnoviji rad, za koji smo predali patentnu

prijavu, svjetlost je bez svjetiljke. Riječ

je o optičkom sustavu, vrlo fokusiranom

snopu svjetlosti koja pod širokim kutom

izlazi kroz mali otvor u stropu.

Koliko traje proces patentiranja? − Tri godine. Nažalost, danas je intelektu-

alno vlasništvo gotovo nemoguće zaštititi.

Sve moje svjetiljke već su nakon godinu

dana bile kopirane, i nisu ih kopirali nepo-

znati proizvođači nego veliki brendovi, koji

su napravili minimalne korekcije na svojim

proizvodima i time izbjegli patentnu zašti-

tu, što cijeli proces zaštite intelektualnog

vlasništva dovodi u pitanje.

Unatoč tomu očito uživate u svojem poslu i timskom radu. Vaši projekti kao da su nastali iz igre…− Istina, uživam kad se okupi tim su-

radnika koji čak i nisu istomišljenici,

ali svatko daje svoj doprinos projektu.

Kompleksnu i tehnički zahtjevnu ideju ne

možete realizirati individualno. Primjerice,

na projektu Bosporskog tunela surađivali

su arhitekti, statičari, elektroinženjeri...

U velikim i zahtjevnim projektima trebaju

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tu svjetla, na naš doživljaj prostora i naše

emocionalno stanje. Svjetlošću možemo

jako utjecati na osjećaj i atmosferu u

prostoru. Zamislite kako biste se osjećali

kad bi vas u restoranu u koji ste došli na

romantičnu večeru dočekalo svjetlo kao

da ste u garaži. Vaš vizualni i emocionalni

doživljaj ne može biti isti kao kad se taj re-

storan osvijetli primjereno funkcionalnosti

prostora, dakle na topao, akcentni način.

Kako ste osvijetlili svoj dom?− U svim svojim projektima, pa i u svojem

domu, nastojim pomoću svjetla omogućiti

različite scenografije, ovisno o načinu na

koji se prostor koristi: gledate li televiziju,

čitate ili usisavate. Uvijek ostavljam mo-

gućnost kreiranja scena. Svrhovito svjetlo

njezin izgled nego kako ona funkcionira,

i zato sve svjetiljke koje sam dizajnirao

imaju sasvim određenu funkciju. Forma

svjetla koja iz njih izlazi važnija mi je od

forme svjetiljke.

Po čemu su Vaše svjetiljke Lun-up i Trick inovativne i jedinstvene? Prva osvjetljuje nagrađivani Parco della Luna u talijanskome gradu Recanatiju, druga tunel Eurasia ispod Bospora. − Za obje svjetiljke dobili smo mnogo

nagrada. Kad sam dizajnirao danas već

poznatu svjetiljku Lun-up, njezina forma

pratila je formu svjetla koju sam očeki-

vao na objektu koji sam želio osvijetliti

i zato je ona imala polukružan oblik koji

je do danas ostao jedinstven, a koji


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se ističe. Kad vlak prođe, ponovo svijetli

most do dolaska sljedeće kompozicije.

Nadahnulo me to što je trebalo osvijetli-

ti infrastrukturni objekt koji je izgrađen

zbog željezničkog prometa, što znači da

je umjesto mosta glavni protagonist vlak.

Njemu smo dali malo veselja svjetlom

u boji koje mu stvara simpatičan efekt.

Hendrixov most prvi je u nizu; zagrebački

mostovi uskoro će imati novo svjetlo.

Što Vas je nadahnulo za tunel Eura-sia? − Nadahnuće je proizašlo iz amuleta,

plavog oka koje nas čuva, suvenira koji u

Istanbulu možete kupiti na svakom kora-

ku, i Fatimine ruke, također njihova tradi-

cionalnog suvenira. Amulet me nadahnuo

na to da svjetlo bude plave boje, a uzorak

začetku razraditi do punog potencijala bez

obzira na financije i cijenu realizacije. Po-

slije se procesima ideja usmjeri do točke

u kojoj će biti prihvaćena − to je također

kreativan proces. Imam sreću da investitor

često realizira ideju kakva je bila izvorno

zamišljena, poput projekta meduza na

Lošinju.

Prvi projekt koji vas je proslavio izvan naših granica bili su Svjetleći divovi, kranovi u pulskom brodogradili-štu koje ste osvijetlili na radost Puljana i njihovih gostiju..− To mi je jedan od najdražih projekata,

zato što su ga Puležani prihvatili kao svoj,

a nekoliko prvih nagrada na svjetskoj

razini i promocija projekta kao turističke

atrakcije Pulu su uvrstili na kartu svijeta.

u vezu ruke nastojao sam reproducirati

dizajnom svjetla. Uspio sam to ostvariti

zahvaljujući svojoj svjetiljci Trick, koja je

tada tek izašla na tržište. Investitor nije

mogao vjerovati da ćemo uspjeti.

Među rijetkima ste koji su se vratili kući u vrijeme rata iako ste u Americi tada već imali svoju tvrtku, napredovali u karijeri… Novi početak sigurno nije bio lak?− Iskreno, u to vrijeme prioriteti su mi se

potpuno promijenili i tada sam se posvetio

kreativnosti, učenju i užitku koji donosi

ostvarenje ideje. Nisam se usredotočio

na profit ili na vrijednost novca, i to me

oslobodilo da svu energiju usmjerim na

stvaranje. Smatram da je važno ideju u

Tišina koja je nastala u trenutku kad su

na dizalicama upaljena svjetla, dok je to

gledalo 15.000 ljudi, najveći je kompliment

koji sam dobio.

Na kojim novim projektima što ćemo ih uskoro vidjeti sada radite? − Dovršava se realizacija maniristič-

kog dvorca Palazzo Te u Mantovi, kao i

osvjetljenje zidina staroga grada u Firenci.

Radimo na dva važna i velika projekta u

Rusiji, osvjetljenju stadiona i jednog od tri

najljepša nebodera na svijetu, Evolution Tower. Nedavno je realizirana najveća

sinagoga u Jeruzalemu prema našem pro-

jektu. Raduje me što imamo dosta važnih

i velikih projekata u Hrvatskoj za koje će

se sigurno čuti u budućnosti. Velika mi je

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vam stručnjaci. No osnovni koncept i ideja

uvijek imaju lidera. Ideja uvijek ima poruku

i ako svi shvate tu poruku, onda je rezultat

dobar. U timu ne može surađivati netko

tko se ne poistovjećuje s projektom. Jeste

li vidjeli kuću u vodi Olafura Eliassona?

On to nije mogao napraviti sam, ali duša

tog objekta sasvim je sigurno proizašla iz

njegove glave…

U čemu je posebnost Vašeg projekta osvjetljenja Hendrixova mosta? − Most ima specifičan luk i Langerovu

gredu koju smo osvijetlili statično, bijelim

svjetlom koje naglašava njegovu formu i

prepoznatljivu zelenu boju, a u trenutku

kad dođe vlak − čiji dolazak i odlazak

prate dva radara − most nestaje, a vlak

01 Most Hendrix u Zagrebu, nagrada Illuminating Engineering Society 2018.Hendrix Bridge in Zagreb awarded by the Illuminating Engineering Society in 2018

02 Skirina svjetlosna instalacija na Festivalu svjetla u ZagrebuSkira’s lighting installation at the Festival of Lights in Zagreb

03 Kružni tok u PuliA roundabout in Pula

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želja da se ostvare; bitno je da vrijednosti

koje imamo izađu iz tame.

Dean Skira, a lighting designer from Pula, is the winner of many prestig-ious awards, to which two awards

given by international professional associa-tions were added this summer. namely, the Illuminating Engineering Society (IES) for his lighting design of hendrix Bridge in Zagreb and the International Association of lighting Designers (IAlD) for his lighting design of a roundabout in Pula. − I like to compare light with music. Both are invisible and affect the emotions power-fully. But, while composers can write their musical compositions in notes, meaning that anyone who knows how to play an

special, and the residents to appraise their town beyond its walls − Skira talks with great verve about his lighting design project of motovun, a magical medieval town in his native Istria, which will be the subject of a lecture he’ll give in Barcelona at IAlD’s conference. Skira is a visionary with a fertile imagination, an artist of light driven by a passion and love of the magic of light, as well as by extensive knowledge and experi-ence that enables him to turn imagination into reality. We’re certain that this will also be the case with the motovun project, even though he’s aware of the complexity of the project and of the many financial, operational and technological obstacles that have to be overcome for the project to be completed. We talked with Skira ahead

doxical, this really intrigued and attracted me. At the Fashion Institute of Technology, I enrolled in interior design studies because that was the only school that had lighting as a subject during all four semesters, taught by lecturers who were professional lighting designers with at least ten years of profes-sional experience in the private sector. In those years, that must have been an eccentric choice, right? − This is so even today in Croatia. In Europe, lighting design studies have only relatively recently been introduced, as far as I know, and this only in Germany, England and milan. In new york, I had met lighting designers with many years of experience quite by chance, and so I had quickly entered the world of lighting design, which

was a discovery for me. Even today, I like exploring the depth of light outside the form of the lamp itself. We lighting designers essentially deal with people, and not things. If people didn’t have the need to live by night, light wouldn’t be necessary. This is why I end all my lectures with the following sentence: light is not important for archi-

tecture, but for the people who live in it.

Although lighting is important in our lives and strongly affects our psyche, the public doesn’t know much about it. With your lighting creations, you remind us that functionality is not a crucial factor. − It would be much more accurate to say that what’s crucial is not the quantity of

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instrument can reproduce them, lighting designers have no symbols at their disposal with which to document lighting composi-tions they want to create − says Dean Skira, showing us his hand-drawn sketches of the most demanding project he has ever designed while describing the beauty of the vistas he’s conceived.− We’ve laser scanned the entire city and have created a simulation that looks magi-cal. Facades, rooftops, slopes, roads, walls, literally each and every house − all has been included in this project. Through this story, I’d like to show the way in which light can enhance existing structures, highlight and add value to the whole city, giving peo-ple the chance to experience something

of his receiving the IES Award in Boston for his exceptional approach to lighting design of the hendrix Bridge (a bridge across the Sava River in Zagreb) project, in which he used light as an art form. You enrolled in design studies in New York in the mid-1980s, when almost no one knew at all that there was a profession called lighting design. What prompted you to study design?− I didn’t know at the time that I wanted to do lighting design. I wanted to go into a profession related to architecture and form, this was my love since early childhood. When I discovered that light has a form which is invisible, but which influences our emotions in a powerful way, which is para-

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light, but its quality, but most people don’t know which elements make up the quality of light. We think about light in terms of quantity, and considering that it’s easy to achieve a certain amount of light, lighting design is considered to be an upgrade or a luxury that most people don’t think about. If a given amount of light enables you to see, your basic need is satisfied. But there are many elements that affect the quality of light, our experience of space and our emotional state. We can influence our emotions and atmosphere in space with light rather powerfully. Imagine how you would feel if you came to a restaurant to have a romantic dinner and you were greeted by light typical of a garage. Both

your visual and emotional experience can’t be the same as when this restaurant was illuminated in a way which is appropriate to the function of its space, hence in a warm, accentuated way. How did you illuminate your home?− In all my projects, including my home, I try to set up different scenographies by means of light, depending on what a given space is used for: are you watching television, reading or vacuuming. I always leave room for the creation of scenes. Purposeful light illuminates space, it’s always of the same intensity regardless of what you use a given space for, but the ambiance comes from the quality of light. The colour of light, not in terms of whether it’s red or blue, but in terms of its warmth, must correspond to

the amount of light. Cold light is preferred if there’s lots of light, and if there’s less light, it should be warmer. This is related to our biology because we are accustomed to the fact that, at dawn and at dusk, the sun gravitates towards the red end of the spectrum, and that at high noon the sky is blue. This biological, human component won’t change for as long as we live under the Sun. night-time light functions the same way: quieter light is warmer, while bright light highlights its cooler component. I pay a lot of attention to these shades. lamps are of secondary importance to me, what’s important to me is not the way they look, but the way they work, which is why all the lamps I’ve designed have a very specific

function. The shape of light that emanates from a lamp is more important to me than the shape of the lamp itself. What makes your Lun-up and Trick lamps innovative and unique? The former illuminates the award-winning Parco della Luna project in the Italian town of Recanati, the latter the Eurasia Tunnel below the Bosporus.− Both lamps have received many awards. When designing the today already well-known lun-up lamp, its shape followed the shape of light I expected to achieve on the object that I wanted to illuminate, and so I gave it a semi-circular shape which has remained unique to date, and which many manufacturers have been copying. The Trick lamp was created later and has a completely different function. Thanks to the Trick lamp, the term graphic light was coined, which is today used all over the world because its light allows you to have controlled linear beams of light with which you get to draw lines in different compo-sitions. When you turn the light off, this graphic composition stops existing. my latest work, for which we have filed a patent application, is light without a lamp. It’s an optical system, a highly focused beam of light that emanates through a small opening in the ceiling at a wide angle. How long does the patenting process take?− Three years. Sadly, intellectual property is virtually impossible to protect today. All of my lamps were copied after as little as a year, and they weren’t copied by unknown manufacturers, but by big brands, who introduced only minor changes to their products, thereby avoiding patent protec-tion, which brings the whole process of in-tellectual property protection into question. Despite it all, you obviously do enjoy your work and teamwork. Your projects seem to have resulted from playing around...− True, I do enjoy bringing a team of associ-ates together who aren’t like-minded, but where everyone contributes to the project. Complex and technically demanding ideas can’t be brought to fruition individually. For example, the Bosporus tunnel project was worked on by architects, structural engi-neers, electrical engineers... On large-scale and demanding projects, you need experts. But the basic concept and idea always have a leader. Ideas always communicate a message and if everyone gets that mes-

Tunel Eurasia ispod Bospora Skira je osvijetlio iznutra i na ulazuSkira illuminated the inside and the entrance of Eurasia Tunnel below the Bosporus

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sage, then the result is good. Someone who doesn’t identify with the project cannot be part of the team. have you seen Olafur Eliasson’s house on water? he couldn’t do it alone, but the soul of this house must have come from his head... What makes your Hendrix Bridge illumination project so special? − The bridge has a very specific arch and a langer’s beam which we illuminated with static white light highlighting its shape and recognisable green colour, and as soon as a train arrives − whose arrival and departure are followed by two radars − the bridge disappears and the train gets highlighted. As soon as the train crosses the bridge, the bridge lights up again until the next train composition arrives. I was inspired by the

design. I succeeded in accomplishing this thanks to my Trick lamp, which was just released on the market at the time. The investor didn’t believe that we’d succeed. You’re amongst the very few who returned to Croatia during the war even though you had already set up your own company in the US, your career had taken off... A new start can’t have been easy. − Frankly, my priorities changed completely at that time and it was then that I devoted myself to creativity, learning and the pleas-ure I derive from bringing ideas to fruition. I didn’t focus on profit or the value of money, and this allowed me to focus all my energy on creation. I think that, at the very begin-ning, it’s important to elaborate your idea to

its full potential, regardless of the finances required and the cost of production. The idea is then directed via processes towards the point where it’ll be accepted − this, too, is a creative process. I’m fortunate enough to have investors often produce my idea as it was originally conceived, like the jellyfish project on the Island of lošinj. The first project that won interna-tional acclaim was the Lighting Giants project, the cranes of Pula’s shipyard that you illuminated to the joy of the residents of Pula and their guests...− That project was one of my most favour-ite ones, because the residents of Pula accepted it as their own. The several first prizes it received at international level and

the fact that the project was promoted as a tourist attraction put Pula on the map. The silence that descended on the 15,000 people watching when the lights were lit on the cranes is the greatest compliment I’ve ever received. What new projects have you been working on?− The illumination of the mannerist Palazzo Te in mantua is being completed, as well as the illumination of the walls of the old town of Florence. I’ve also been working on two important and big projects in Russia, the illumination of a stadium and of one of the three most beautiful skyscrapers in the world, Evolution Tower. The illumina-tion of the largest synagogue in Jerusalem has recently been completed based on my

project. I’m thrilled about the fact that I’ve been working on quite a few important and big projects in Croatia that you’re bound to hear about in the future. I’m very much looking forward to bringing them to fruition. What matters is that the values we have be brought out of the darkness.

Motovun u Istri, grad iz snova − simulacija najambicioznijeg Skirina projekta u nastajanjuMotovun in Istria, a dream town − a simulation of Skira’s most ambitious project

fact that I was to illuminate an infrastructure facility built for rail traffic, which means that it was trains and not the bridge itself that played the main role. Trains were rendered joyful with the help of light in colour which produces a delightful effect. hendrix Bridge is the first in a row; Zagreb’s other bridges are soon to be illuminated as well. What was your inspiration for the Eurasia Tunnel?− I was inspired by the evil eye protection talisman, a souvenir that you can buy all across Istanbul, and by the hand of Fatima amulet, another one of their traditional souvenirs. The talisman inspired me to opt for blue light, and I tried to reproduce the pattern of the hand of Fatima via lighting

razgovor interview - skira.hrskira.hr/wp-content/themes/skira/pdf/2018_ca_interview.pdf · croatia...

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