s. .~. .. - historical papers, wits university vat i. dit? die nag toe ek by sy ooon .e huh was, hy...
TRANSCRIPT
1.10.'
" -,., , < ~ • .. .' . C:.I'· r:p • ~E i'£~lO\~1. ~ .• S:O'.
:~ -~t ~~LY~rO\ ·~!\S. .~. ..£., . .. JiE S'~E;:' "" . ;~ '1£ S-PH~A;O£Ll\G d' SU::: .
eUCi'E:
THE STATE vprSUI'
::lIE STAAt lte" •
O~ 8E IIllf or lHE STATE:
~~M(~S DIE ST~AT:
o~ SEM~lr or THE o(r~~CE:
"~!"E',S Ol( ~rI!O[O:GI'~,
VOLUME 1
jBladsy 1 - 1001
"£COPDI'~S _U~l!t ::J~~~"£S
",Nil; I J J LUTIIER
1. STANLEY RACESE
2. EPHRAIM MTHUTIIUZELE MADALANE
3. E~EST LEBANA MOHli.KALA
4. IN~OCENTJA NONKULULEKA KAZlBUI
AOV. E JORDAA.N
NAMINS BESKULOIGOES 1 , 2 en 3,
AOV. 0 SOGGOT
NAlU:NS BESKULOIG.DE 4,
,.~~~ ~K!f!~~L\~h
SIE" KLAGSTAAT
SEE CIIARGC SIIEET)
SI(\ KtA(;STHT
MNR II KAHLANGU
KloOl - 1 -
AANKLAER,Edelagbare, ~ lal roerk dat aan die klagltaat is daar
reedl ' n klagltaat geheg, .. ar sedert daardie klagltast opge
It.l 11, het dial' 'n versnd.rlng plaa,g.vlnd en toe het daar
ook 'n WYllglng gekom van daardie klag'taat deurdat Bylae 3
gevyl1g is. Ek vra verlot Om .Ue gewydgde klag'taat en die
gevyl1gde bylae 3 san 1.1 Of te handig,
HOP, Het 1.1 be .... aar indlsn die klag.taat .0 qevy.lg ... ord JoInr
SO<]got en />tnr BalSlian? Voor pIe it ksn die Aanklaer "eker IY
klagltaat WYlig 100 .... at hy goedvind.
K"~R BASSLIAN, Geen be,w.ar. (10)
MNR SOGGOT: I don't thir,k I' ve got lcx:~, .tandi.
AANKLAER: Edelagbare, 8)'lae ) ... ord dan vervang d.ur die gewy.19-
de bylae.
HOF, Or!! vervarring te voorkom, ... ord die 01.1 bylas eerder van
die It~kke verwyder, dit ... ord vernietig deur Mnr Jordaan. Net
die een 800 .... at hy nou opqe.tel 11, word aan die klag'taat
g.heg.
AANKLAER: U ,al nou lIen dsar 1. nou t ... ee blad'ye 3 ongelukklg.
Maar dlt tl .... ar 'n ongelukkige lUll_loop van Ofllltsndlghede,
on, kan as dit nOO19 is verwyl na Bladay Hal en bladlY 3(b) (20)
HOF, Coed om vervarrlng t. voorkom m.rk .k dle e.n op dle Itadlum
bladlY 3 (a) en die ander e.n bladsy 3 (b) . Oaar 11 dan net een
bylas 3.
AANKLAER:Ja, vlr elke t...kuldigde 1, dsar 'n byla., en belkul
digde 3 se bylae ... ord no~ vervang met dl(i een ... at ek nOu aan
1.1 opgehsndig hst. Dan vra ek ook verlof OlD op ts handig eer
lten, dle Prokureur-Generaal Ie lertlfikaat, in9svol~ die
bepsling~ van Art. 64 van Wet 74 van 1982 ten aan.isn van die
belkuldigdea, en ook wat dle alternatiewe aanklaq aanbetref,
Art 2 (I) (a) die aents .1ternet1 ...... a.nklag teen die vler (30)
belkuldiqde. I ..
1<1.02 - , belkuldigdel. Ede1agblre. 101,1. ge_rk het. dlt. in Byille 3.die
qevyaigde byille, word dnr In pllnqrllllt (0 deur die StUt be
weer dlt Belkuldlqde No . 3 mtIitlre opIeldlng onderqaan het
in Libi';' Nou EeleIagbare, elit Itel ook daar 'n oortredlng van
die 01,1. Art 2 (1) (b) van wet 83 van 1967 en daaro .. wil ek een
verlof vrll ellt 'n varelere lIn bYgevoeq word op bl.dly 1 v.n
die kl.qlt.l.t, op die ~lik leel dit 1001 volg "die belkuldig
del is Ikuldig ""n die ",ild"ad v.n terroril'" deur die oortre
ding van Art 54 alteuaUewel1k 2(1) (a) van Wet 83 v.n 1967,"
en dan by t40 vo.q "en Art 2 (1) (d) Vln Wet 83 van 1967 Ileql(lO)
beskuldiqde NO.3, deurdn hy di. hendelinqe gen<>ell in plra
qraaf (f) v.n Byte. 3 ge"leeq het." £k _en ek het op durdle
klegltaat reedl 10 'n a.~tekenln9 ge .... k Wit ek lin U Ed.l.
opgehlndlg het.
1I0f': Oit leel tanl 10. £k bet"Yfel dit of die Jlof op hi.rdie
Itadium voor pl.it, "Ylt;inql aan die klaqsta.t k.n to.lt •• n.
&k weet nie.
AAh"KLAER: Dit l.es op die oornblik 10. "" .. r hoe clit ookal Iy 0111
dllirdie Arttkel tI dek. IS dalr ook 'n lerti!ikalt inqevolge
8 van die wet 83 van 1967 wat ek Jll8t 1,1. verlof 1111 ophlndlq. (20)
Dit is dan dtie lertifikate, een dek dan die hoofklaqte en die
Inder twe. lertif1klte dek dte tw •• 11t1rnat1ew-e klaqle. Die
tweede alt.lrnlt.l_e klaqte II 11eql ten Iinlien van aelkuldigde
110. 3.
1l0F: Die lertifikate lal by die notu1. Ilnqeheq word.
AANI<LAER: Olln het my Geleerda vrienda .. kere Nadera Belonder
hede aanqlvra
!!£L;. MOlt 1,1. ni. een dat die belku1dlqdel pleit nie?
Uh"KLAER: 5001 <lit 1,1. behaa .. , die Nadere Besonderhede IOu tog
deal VOtll v"n die klaql""at:, ... ar 1001 dit u behaaq, Onl kin (lO)
dal I
111.04 - , -dat tllllle eera dlm pleH.
HOI' : Ek dink dit is wenslik.
J\ANIlLAER: So dit nOOig ... eea Edelagbare, dat ek die hele klag
staat voorlees a .. n die beskuldio;Jdes of is dit nie nOOig nie.
MNR SOGGOT: Sover my klJente betref, hulle verst .... n die inhoud
d .... rvan, hulle k .. n plei~ daarop.
MNR BASSLIAN: Dieselfde vir my klHlnte Edelagban .
HOI' : Beskuldio;Jde No.!, het Mnr Soggot die aanklao;Jte met jou
deurgegaan?
aESKULDIGDE 1: Dit il so. Ek verstaan die aanklagte.Ek pleit(IO)
onskuldio;J op die hoof sowel aa die alternatiewe aanklao;Jtes.
HOI': Beskuldigde NO.2, is die klao;Jstaat met jou deurgegall.n?
aESKULDIGDE 2 : Ek verstaan die aanklagte. Ek plett onskuldig op
die hoof- Bowel lIB die alternatiewe klagtea .
BESKULDIGDE 3:Ek ventaan die aanklagte. Ek plett onskuldt9
op die hoof- sowel as d1 .. alternat! ....... klao;Jte.
AANKLAER:wat die Nadere Besonderhede betre!,vra ek dan verlo!
om die aanvraao;J daarvoor en die antwoorde daarop 0;> te handig.
Aanklaer handig in Sertif1kaat ingevolge Art.30 (1) wet 74 van
1982. (20)
COURT:Mr Soggot, does Accused No.1 or Accused No.2 wish to
disclose the basis of ttelr defence?
/oIR SOGGOT ADDRESSES THE COURT . (/oIr SoggOt's michrophone defec
tive)
COURT Is that all they "ish to say at thh stage.
Accused No. 1 do you confirm that?
INTI::RPRB'lER : This is confirmed by Accused No.1.
COURT : Mr aas.lian ?
MR BA$SLIAN ADDRESSES THE COURT .
COURT : Accused No.3, do you confirm thst? ,>0, ACCUSED I
Kl . ll - . -1I.CCUSED NO.3: 1 confirm that.
",CCUSED No •• : I confirm that.
-'ANKLAER: Edelagbare, ek dink u het per abuls nagelaat o~
vir No . 2 te vra of hy dlt bevesUg.
HOI': Ja . No.2, beveSUg hy dit oak?
BESKULDIGOE 2 : Ek Oevestlg dit Edelagbare.
OlE -'ANKLAER ROEP :
NOWILUNGEU GXOWA v.o.e. (Deur Tolk)
ONDERVRA.GING DEUR AANKLAER: U is afkolllJlUg vlln Uitenhaag 18
dit korrek? -- Ja, dit is s o.
Het u op 'n stadlwr. na Johannesburg gekom? -- Ja. dlt i e
korrek .
(10)
Min of meer wanneer was dit gewees ? -- November v ll n 1979.
En ",at was die doel van u korns nil Johannesburg? -- Ek
het kom werk soek.
Nou ken u enlge een van die beskuldlgdes nou vocr die
Hof , dit is nOu No.1 tct 4. -- Ja
Wie ken U? -- Die ene aan die l1nkerkant. dit is beskul
digde 1.
Wanneer het u vir teskuldigde No.1 ontmoet? -- Ek het (20)
hom ontmoet in die jaar 1979 .
Kan u meer pres ies wees. -- Oit was in die m.!Iand van Oe
sember, 1979 .
Oesember . 19797 -- Oit is korrek.
En waar het u hom ortmOet? -- Ek het hom naby ' n winkel
ontJnoet .
JII , het daar vrien<!skap tussen julIe onts taan? -- Oaar
het ' n vriendskap toe or.tstll .. n.
Kan u vir ons s~ wat was die aard van die vrlendskap7
Oit was 'n liefdesverhouding.
Ja / .•
(30)
1U.1~ - , -Ja. Ken II ' n .ellere penoon _t die naam van TillOthy?
Ell ken vir TllDOthy .
Hoe het II dlli peneen leer lien? -- Ell het hom 1Nr ken
deur Stenley.
Stenley, h dit nOli Be.lIl1ldlgde NO. I? -- Je, Stanley 1.
beallllldiqde Ho, l.
waar het II die peraocn on~t? -- Ell het h~ gevoon1111
. aam met Beilluldigde I, Stanley, ge.ien.
Je. Het u .om. II .4 daarwa. ' n verhoudlng tU.len u
en NO.1, h. t II .aq na.y huh g.gaan? -- Ell wa. by ay ollerl(IO)
.e huh op . en geleenthdd.
U Will by Iy ouen se huh op een geleentheid. -- Ja .
Het OJ daar oorna<j of n1e? -- £11 het daar oorna",
Nou lIan u die Ho! .... edeel IIlin of meer tyden, u verhou
ding lOOt Be.IIOJ1di<jde NO. I, het u en!",e iets egtergellolll in
verbend met Iy .. ell wl1 nOu nie woorde in II IIIOnd 16 nie ..
_t sy optrede wat vir II opvellend wa,?
HOr ietl If wet _II van "010 onteSell het .
Ja, ek kan vir die
Ja, vat i. dit? Die nag toe ek by sy ooon .e huh
was, hy het daar met sy vriend_ In dl. eetkamer ge.it. (20)
£k het nle die vriende geden nl' Edelagbare , !Mar ek "et die
Item van TilllOthy herken, wat ek geken het. Die rad10 d16
het geapeel.
Ie •• nle.
Dit will oop<Jemaak .odat ek nie kon hoor vet hul-
Ja? -- En daarna het Stanley, Belkuldlgde NO.1, vir my
ge •• hI' wll vir '1' vriende ver<je.,l.
Ja? HI' h,t toe 'n brievetill ingebring in die ,leap-
kamer In .
HI' het 'n briewetol8 ingebring in die 51aapk illlner In? -
"a, dit waa evart ven kleur govee •. (30)
Het I ..
- , -Het 110. 1 toe vertrek met sy vrtende of nle?---Ja , hyhet
net die briewetas neer8e61t, en toe dsarns vertrek .
DEUR DIE HOF : ls !lIt nOU 1n die sla.apkamer W8sr jy was?---in die
slaapkamer wsar ell. was . £< het toe na di e hrlewetaa toe eagsar.,
dl~ oopge~aak, en binna kant het e~ ' n harde leer omsl"c cavind.
Op hierd!e omslag was geskrywe "The youth revolution Cour.eil 1n
Africa for all" . Ole getuia het verder 8es~ desr was ook san
die blnneka.nt gedlgte gewees •• po8ms •• wat in de Zoelostaal was ,
Ja en toe?---En toe e:< hoo .. dat Seskuldi gde 1 best8 was
om terug te kom, het sk die nota boek teruggeslt •• gou terusse- Ie
sIt, 1n die hriewetas , en toe gaen alsap . Voor die ~eskuldi8-
de , !llt is 1:0 . I, 1n dIe kombel'se gekom het, het die pOlisie
gekom .
DEUR DIE HOF : Ekskuus, jy 56 voordat hy in die ko~b~rse gekon
het , --voor hy in die ko~berse gekom het
Bedoel jy voordat by in die bed geklim het?---voorhy in
die bed gekHm het,voor hy slaap •• het die poHaie daar ingekom ,
hulle .. as op soek n$ ' n be .... eerde gesteelde motor ge .. ees .
En hulle het hom toe saamgeneem .
VE.'lHOOR DEUR DIE S,A. (HER'/AT) .... ie 18 'hom' nou?---Beskuldigde ;>Q
No . 1 .
Goed , nou goed, is u toe op 'n stadium ,,·eer terug na
die Oos- Kasp toe?---ek het toe teruggegaan na die Kaaptoe.
En .... aar het u toe gaa!) bly?---lls my ouers se huis toe in
Cradock.
!1outerwyl jy nou in cra~ock se .. oon het, sekuier het, .. at
dit posiate ook mall" "ees , het u enigsins iets van No . 1 .. eel'
cehoor?--- Hy het vir my 'n brief seskrywe .
Ja?--- O: het geant .... oord op die brief , en later het hyvir
my gebel, die versoek .... Ilttr' aan my gerie het Edelagbtlre , was 30
00 seuna daBr in Cradock vir hom te orcenlseer .
\1as •••
- , Was dit nou tydens die t.l.roonopro~p of 1n die brier? --
OJ·_ .... 001' die tel.roon .
Het Jy die brief 8eho~ or he" jy hDC ",.eg8£001,---d1e briet
bet ek .an die brand Eeateek. Hy het net nor-eaal geakryt det hy
na my verlang sulka goed .
~ed , jy s~ 001' die ttle!oon het hy vir u ges, U ~oet .. at
maak?- - - Ily het gese elr. !:IOtt vir hom dear 1n Crac:lock seuna 01'
ganiseer •
... ·s.rvoor? ___ Hy het gut (let l'illlothy ""at 1s van Johannesburg
en d.t hy 1n basit 1s van ' n ~otork.r .. at )y gesteel het. en 10
datt¥ d.~ 1n Cradoek met die voertu18 sal. ko::. •• ec vir d1e
aauna te koa baal •• en sean met hull. ga.n .
Goed ,u sO det hy vir u ge •• het det Timothy wag ii , nou
.. s.tu ", •• rheen Timothy ls?--Hy het vir Illy gest det Timothy
Bot.wane toe 1e.
Het hy aftn u gest "'at Timothy 1n Botl;wana gaan IIIllal: hpt?
----Hy het my nle ges~ nle
\te.t u wasrvoor dle seuns 1n Cr.dock •• u dle seuns 1n
Cr.d?Ck QOeS organise'r?---Hy h,t ,.ae vlr sy organlsasie .
En hy het ges' hy wl1 SSIllll •• t hull. n.a Botawana toe gean .
Ie d1t el wat hy gese h't?----Olt ls el wat hy g.II' h.t
Yat was dl. houdlng •• u houdlns sew •• s met hlerdl.v.r
aO.k?----Ek hot geBe ek kan dlt nl. doen nle , en elt saan w ....
• k saan na ..,y BlIster to, Wit ln Ult.nhas.woon .
CEE;, VEROO1l.£ VRAr:
KIIUISVt:l.HOOl. DEU'l. I,:!{ . SOGGC'1 : 00 you knO'ol the surnala. ot
this ,.ntlPlllan called ?i':othy?---Elt vergeet sy van •• l tort:.t
his aurna:ne .
Your Worship what I SlI £Olng tOlllY 1npU.s no crltlcillll
but the ach 'oIhich thiS witne&8 hIlS tl's;;lfied to, are not
tore shadowed in any ot the partlculars
lB . .. ••
20
,
- , -BY THE CO\.IRT : Are you objecting to the admissibility ot the ••
__ No, 1 am not but I ahoul~ 11ke to take instructions.
00 you want the Court to adjourn for a whlle?---Yea .
COURT ADJOURNS
UPON RESUMING:
NOMALUNGELA GlOWA at!l und~r oath
MR . SOGCOT: I am indebted to Your Worship tor the adjournment
I do ~pe Sir that there ... ill not be any mOre surprises ,
CROSS-EXAMINATIOrl BY MR. SOGGOT:Mr Interpreter, please ask her
has she • • she has dellcrlbed the one night when she ..... hich she 10
apent at No. I'll house , my question 1s baa ahe told us every-
thing ahe knows about that evenlng7---Yes
And 1s there anything she wanta to change now , or does ahe
stand by her eVidence?--- I stand by my evidence
And has she told us everythlng?-- -- ••
About the evenlng?- ---No , I have told the Court everything
You an~ 110 , 1 to put it bluntly, were lovers?---Yes
When did~hat relationship start? ---In December
"''hen did you say you arrived?--- ••
In Johannesburg.---In November ot 1979
And when did you leave Johannesburg in order to go back?
As I understand it to Cradock . ---In Msy ot 1980
And at that s t sge were you still lovers?---Yes
The relationship was good?- - - the relationship was good
Now I suppose you wert quite aad to leave this gentleman
who was your lover?---No, not reslly
"''hen you tirst came to JohanneSQUrg. where did you st.y?-
I was staying at 110. 665 Sinoane Village
Is that near to where No. L lives with his parents?----Yes
... ·asn ' t there trouble at the house whaa you were living
andyou had to go and 8tay 50me wherO) elae?--- •••
/ilasn' t • • •
20
"
- , -W"n't ther e a 1I1.underltandlnc betw •• n or with your .ietar?
---No,
Old you not l •• ve that bouse ? To atay anywhe r e elae?--- No .
VeIl ,! pu t it to you that you not only lett the house wher e
you were a t eyi ng , but you went to live with No . 2 1n hil parents
hOu •• • --Accuaed No . 21
For eeverBl-.,ntha •• I lUI sorry , I lIeant Accl,lsed No . 1. --No I
never atayed at hi. paranta ' place .
You nevar apent the night there?---I .pent a night , the nl~ht
that I described here when I n w the book.
So what you are tall1q: lie l a ,. IUs War.hlp . 111 that tor a
~rlod ot DO .... than 5 .ODtlla that you Wlr. lover. , you only
'pant one night at hi. house and it w •• on this particular night
that you described. that you spoke .bout . --- T ~p.nt nn_ n i ght
II h. waa usually not at home at oiSht
But why do you •• y that , what • • w •• n ' t he often on nlsht
.hift?---He w •• n ' t .. p10yed .t the time .
I want to put it to you he wa • • He WI' working for. firm
••••• chini.t •• ••• knitter. --- He had left that employ .
10
Did you know what emp10~ent he we. working .t, t he emp10y- 20
ment which he 1ef t?---He e.id that he w •• employed by somt
cloth f .ctor y .
Did you .sk hIm what work he did?--- Yea , I did .
And did he tell you?---F~ told .e
00 you know the name of the firm? Where he worked?--- I don ' t
remember t he n8.llle of the f1M1
Was he not communicatIve , not • • in other wor da , did he not
take you into hI. confidence or dId he tell you ever ything? --
He d1d not tell me everything
So you knew very little about his ectlvitie.?---thet 1a .0 }O
And he didn ' t even tell you where he worked . ---Other than /thia ••
- 10 - • gxOIA
thia til', thlot I haYa a.nt1on.d, b. did nClt ttll .a anythlne
abollt hia work.
Old he tall yOIl the na.. of l:I1a fil'?---I dCln't r .... b.r
bac.u.. b .... in tha proca •• of la •• ine thl "plo,.ant .t that
.1.0. U tha .ccllaad and l:I1a .Clthlr and trianda Wlra to .. y that
yO\1 in :tact nad :trOll tbll bCla.a wbare YOll .. ra l.1.1ne an<l cu.
and li.14 "'lth 110. I, for alVan..], aClnthl, would that ba untrue?
---It wClllldn't bl tbe trutl:l becauaa I did not atay tl:lara.
Who vera YOll atayine witl:l?---Yith ay alater Kary
And dlc1n't !Cary hava trClllbla and .aan't l:Iar boytriand abot?
-Thera waa trOllbla yaa
And tha po11ce .era callad?---Yaa
Dldn't 10\1 than bacauaa of a a1aunderatand1na than l aava
•• ."han I .. ya1aunderata.IKI11li, I un<laratand it fro. tha accuaed
aoae friction or ar,uaant. Sir .ay I clarity the point with
the accuaad? •• __ 1 dld nClt laava Tour Yoral:l1p becauae tl:la .ia
und'rltandinc w.a bltvaln ~r1 and tha boyfriend.
Well thia 1a collataral but .y Wlllaratandic.a: 11 that !Cary'a
boyfrland had frlanda who wara in fact propo.ine lo.ato yOIl
and that il why YOll wara e-barra •• ad .--- MCl, .y .1atar ...
indeed very atr1ct, nClbody cI.1d •• at her placa
Wa viII aee abollt that. TOII'.e already si.an one axplana
tion. but I v111 rapaat the quflltion. why il it that in a pe
riCld of .Clre thawn 5 aontbl, ot • lova ralationahlp. 1011 only
apent Clnl night •• and it wae thia critical night at Mo. I',
bollal.---It 1e bacauaa Accu..d No.1 wa, uallally not at hi.
parent., hoae at night.
I .. 'orry, 1 can't helr.--thi. i. bacluaa Accuaad Mo. 1
v .. \llIlIally not It hi. parenti' hoa!! It night.
But that 1. whera ha alapt. __ lt hi. hole?
ITe •••
10
30
- 11 -
f.,. -- .. It n. didD't ,1 •• p .t hi' bo •• , ¥ber. did b, ,1 •• p1---I do
not know Sir, I did not 10 about witb ha
Do you v:p,ct 81, Vor'hip to und.r,taDd t~t Ila .... r tt..t you
• 10v.r •• I .. ,orry to .cc.pt that Ila .... r that you. lov.r. at
.or. tt..D t1v •• ontbt dur.tion, had no id •• wb.re b, ,t.ytd
wbtr. n. 'p,nt tb, n1aht,.---wtll he va'n't t.111n, •• tb, truth
S1r.
D1d you .,k ha1-- 'a .. diY' b, would tor l_tanc, COIl. to
... aDd .. y tbtt b. would coat to t.tch •• but be wouldn't turn 10
up •• aDd tben I would .l •• p .t bo.e
~blt i. not an Ilavtr to .y qu,.t10n. --- ••
I ... k1na you, dld you .v.r .sll: ~ wb,r. he ",nt to .1 •• p1
--f ... I utd to •• k hi ••
What va, hi. IMwtr1-be '11d he ,l'pt .t hi. tr1.nd
pllc ••
D1d h ••• nUon wh1ch triend?---I know I friend that b. uual
ly .entioned by the nea. at Mike.
lUke wbo?_I don't know the .urnaae
D1d you .ver .e.t Mike?---I .e" ha once
Old he ..... r ~e you to thie Mlke?---No.
Dld you .ver vls1t or aeet hia ~lenda?
The only triend that I know at, 1. Tiaothy.
Ian ' t tbll retber iaprobable .tory that you are te1l1ng
Hil Worlhlp? A .tranc. one that you 'v. a lov.r, that you .p.nd
ODe I11Cht w1tb ha 1n tiv ... ontba.---V.ll 1f bl d1d not take
.e to bis friend., .e he d1d not take .e to hie tr1ende
D1d his fr1end. co.e to ha?---I uaually beard the tr1ende
talk1na outdde and tbi, 1& b.eIWle hie parent" bou.e WII on
the back ot .y Illter', hOUle.
fou vere I very clo.e ne1ghbour.--- Yea.
l'rhen •••
20
- 12 -
th.D anawer the que.tloD,~l~ you DOt ••• t hia trl'D~a wh.D
they c ... to vi.it ~?---Jo I ~i~ Dot
In tlv. ItOntb.li?---1I.11 b. ~1~ not c.ua ••• to ••• t hi.
tri'D~'
Di~ you a •• tb .. 1---No, I ~i~ not ••• hi. triend., the
probl.. il that Stanl.y juet Dev.r It.y.~ .t ~.
Y •• , but you 'v. b •• D •• yinc that they ueed to co." you've
'~.itt'~hat, 1lD~ what you hal" .aid i. iD til" .0Dtha you Dever
•• w llDy tri'D~a, ___ Y ••
11 .. it becaue. it .... I1wy. at n1~t1 .. '1'hat you .aw hia 10
tri'D~a? ___ Y •• it i. po •• ible, th.y c .. e .t Di&ht 1lD~ ~ur1Dg
the ~IY he voul~ alw.y. be alOD.
Alway. b. aloDe, ill. hi. houe.,---.t hi. par.Dt. houe.,that
ia ~ IlDd hi. pareute
So vhile be .p.nd. hie Diaht. out he ia • herait It hom.,
-Y", I alway ••• w ~ .u,ODe there buey tbing •• otor v.hicl.
Without l'iaitor.?---vithout l'iaitor., I ~id Dot .. e llDy
WOuld you •• y "I juat VllDt to ,et clarity tro. you b.tor.
I .ak that .. ar. you • .,11141 that thia occ .. lou .meu you .... nt
to 1'1.it tor the ni&ht, that ... the only oCC •• iOD you epeDt 20
.t hi. houe.1----i t .... the 18llt tue tbat I weDt th.r. IlDd
the rel.OD that I had ,Oil., there v •• be had luvited .e to
ICCO.pIlDY ~ to • biacope,
My queltioD 18 .. wal that the tir.t IlDd tbe l'lt .. that 18
... hat I UDder.tood your .videuc., but I want to cbeck lt, __ _
It ..... the tir.t and the l.at
But oan you .xpl.in that, here le your lover, h. ependa
every d.y .t bo-e, there i' uo one t.king up hi' tlae, and you
dOD't ,0 and viait ~1---I did not have tbe chance to go to , becau.a I wa. bu8y .o.t olfbe tiae
11.11 can you ple •• e tell ue what ,.de you to be .0 very
/bu.y ••••
'"
- 13 - II·CloD ~J that JOu couldn't Iparl I balt alnutl tor Jour lO.lr
ot 5.onth8?-lfdl I couldD't ,0 .,ltbou,t b.a 1rrf'lt111.1 •• to do
00.
ADd 1. It not .tr~. to JOu that durln, 5 .ontba b. n'Y,r
Inv1t,d JOU ov.r onc. thi. lo •• r ot Jour.?---W,ll po •• lbly be
dld AOt 10., •• that .ucb
Let a, COlI' becll: to tbi. qu .. t1on, dld Jou Iu"a tbl apra'
.10D or 10011:111.1 becll: on tb ... bol. hi.tory tod'J. do you • • would
JOu •• y tlut b, ...... arJ "cratlv . .. ltb Jou and told JOU Dothill.l
.bout bil tr1lndl .nd DOth1nc .bout hi. work .nd anytbinc ilia? 10
---T •• , b, d1d not hida thlt t.ct Sir. b, told •• that be 1.
Dot in the hab1t ot ta1l1ac hi. ,1rltriend anytD.1q that he
do •••
I .... aDd .0 tha onlJ 1'r1lOO ot hil that JOu can nua, 1.
a par.on callad Mlk'?--- T ... b. onlJ 1.1d It 11 • tr* ad ot
hi ... ith ",no. be .t, al .otor c.r' and nothil1j: .or,
WhIt about Accu.aed 110. 2, bav, JOu IVIl' Illen b.a bator, to
d'J?-I Ju.at .... b.a vIllt1I1C .. ltb TlaotbJ but I do not kno" ... Mo. 2 JOu I.", walklnc witb Taotby?---T,., be va. to,.tb.r 20
.. 1 th Tl.othJ .
Old you ,v.r I •• No. 2 and No. 1 to"thllr?---Hot to"th,r
I want to put 1t to you that they otten .... on. anotb.r.
th'ir t~lla. are cl0" r,llted •• 1 •• an tbllJ ar. cl0"
ADd tb.rl 1. I rll.t1onahip, --- TbeJ rl,ard onl
anotblr •• --tbey rl,ard onll anotblr?
Tllere 11 In t.ct a clo .. rll.t1on.hlp .. b.t .... n tb, tul11 ..
and bet .. ,en Acculed 1 and 2.---1 can only "J I do not kno"
about It.
ADd .0 .. hit Jou ar, t,Uin&' Hi. ¥orlhip vary concr,tlly }O
1. that JOu n ••• r In thil perlod ot 5 'Onthl, .iniaua .1 I un
/d,rltl1ld •••
• 14 -
der,taDd it, you neTer ••• 10 . 1 &Dd 2 to,etber? __ .1 only a ••
Stanley .ith tt.otby
they .ere fr1end.?-one and two yea, tbay aleo at.yed once
.t.yed in tbe boWIe next to tba other
Mo. '!'iaothy .... tr1end at youra,you kne. one anotber?
otten e •• one another?-I only kne. 'liaotby .. tbe boy etay1q;
in the vicinity of tba bou ••
Tou n.v.r apok. to b..1a?---J'Wlt ,.nerally
Jut ,.nerally, boy auy bou ....... be .v.y fro. your.?---
tb.ir boua. ia .itu&t.d in the .tr •• t on tbe b.ck aDd the bouae 10
i. jWlt next to wh.re AcC\l.led 11'0. 1 .t.y.
And vb.n Mo. 1 and tt-othy vere to,eth.r, d1d tbey Dot t&llr.
to you aa _11 ?-You •• an wbo?
Wh.n 11'0. 1 and 'liaothy w.r. to,.ther, ... ahe n.ver p.ra1t-
ted •• 1 WI. that e¥pr ••• ion •• to join in the1r conv.rellt10D? ---••
Juet all ••• tter of ordinary,ne1ihbourly d1ecu.ion.
Wbat Wlu.lly bapp.ned Your Vor.hip 1e Stanley OD hi. _y to
.cbool would 10 tbrouih •• 1 .. 'OrTY tt.otby ,0il1l to .chool,
would 10 throua;h IICCWlItd Mo. I'. yard •• end whenever be •• w
.e. he would pi" a joke, 1rI p ... 1q;.
Do you like Tiaothy'?---Te., h. w •• a fr1endyou can •• y
T .. , .0 you would be 1Ir.tere.ted to know vhetber thi. ne1Cb
bour ot youre had fled tbe country or not? ---Stanley told
ae, he told •• that he left.
!IT Ttre: CQURT:b Stanley, .ccu.ed Mo. 11--Y" , Mo. 1.
DoD ' t reter to h1a •• Stanley, refer to b..1a •• AcCWled Mo
1.-1 Wlderatand.
CR0ss-IXNUWIOM BY MR. SOCC9T: (COtn'IHUliD)He told yO\l that
on the ' poon.?-·Yell
20
And bec,Wle 1 t 1. the .ort of in!oraet1on )'ou would be in- JO
tere.ted 1n bec,Wle he ..... nelihbour end aOileone you kn.w.
/-----
- IS - !! gxon --T ..
Can you tdl rul Wouhip on ..,hat dlY you lett Johalmubur,
to CO to Cradoek?---It 11 not very elear but It wa. durlDi the
.eek on a rueedlY
And .hlt .onth do you IIY it .., .. ?---It wal In "-y
Be,lnn1n, ot May, the .tddle or the end?---let, In Kay
Lete In Kay. And the other qu .. tlon tbat I want to .. k you
la thia, bow lon, do you lay betor, you lett Johalm,abur" dld
tbia Ineldent take plaea when the pollea e .. , tor No, l?---about
two .. ek',
Are you tlirly Iltl'tiad wlth that __ wer, that it .. , lbout
two .. eka . I don't want to ruth you on thi, point. ---yel before
I left lbout two .. ekl
ADd wherlllOU lett dld ha take you to tha rlilway Itltlon?
Whan you lett did ha taka you?---Te, h' dld
In wbat ear?--bJ.' eouall1" .otor ear
Old ha not ha~e I ear at thet ,tl,a?---No, ha did not have
it ••
I .. lorry, .. I il1terruptin, you Mr Interpretarf--NO Sir
10
lthen you 'IY hil eou'ill, what i' the l1 .. a of that eoualn? 20
---One Jabu
AT nils STAG! THE COURT ADJOURNS FCII. LUNCH
YPON RES!}JI!IHG:
If9PW)Jp!GEkA G!OB 'tlll under olth
CB05S-EXAKlIfATION BY !QI., S9OO9T: (COIft'INUED) I .. looklD1 It the
1..Ddlet.ent, tha TUiothy you rater to 11 tbat Tlaothy Me.lbiana?
--Yea
I then want to put It to you that when No, 1 dld 'phone you
I' he ..,111 tell Ki. Worlhip, he u,ad to 'phone you, Ind on ona
oeea.lon that he dld 'pbon. you. he told you lbout Tl.othy }Q
b,eluse h' Im,w you and Tuothy ware trlend •• --- friend, 1..D
/whIot, • ••
- 16 -
what .. Md
H. w111 tdl Hi. 'for.hlp tMt wbat happ.n.d .... that .ft.r
faotby fiN, th. ~pb 111 tb. Dei,bbourbood lOt • r.port that
.. fro. lD f.et pol1e. off1cu. who e ... tbtor., who .aid b.'.
, OD' to Bot.wana to j 01D thl A.N.C. an orianl~.tloD which tb •
• ccu •• d hal Dothina to do w1th.---1 und.r.tand
Bu t wbat I don't und.r,tand, wl11 you ju.t tell Hi. Wor
.hip, dld tb. Iccu •• d t.ll you faothy had ,on. to joln tb.
!.N,C? ---No b. dld not
Ha". you ever b.ard of tb. !,If.C.?-Y .. , ... ueually ~ar 10
of it .
00 you know anythinl .bout It?---No, 'llC.pt w~t I r •• d 1n
the pap.r.
T •• , you I Wld'rlltand art not pol1t1e.l?-By whicb I •• an
you Q.v. no p.rt1cl1lllr 1nttr .. t 1.0 pol1tlc.?-- No I .. not
• p.r.on who i. Involv.d with pol1t1e.
And you'''' o.v.r b •• n conc.rn.d •••• tud.nt or otherwi"
In any pol1tical Ictl1'lty?---NO, I don't r .... b.r .vu dolD&
anythiq
And you'1'. nev.r carrhd on any for- of pol1tical .et11'lty? 20
-Ho.
Now vb.1lt we art .tlll on thi. td.pbon. call, d1d you •• k
tu.. any qu .. tion •• bout infor-.t1oo b. ,''1' you? --110 I dld
not •• It hi. IDy qu .. tlon.l
Vm" you .urpr1.N It any of th. Infor-.t10n b. 1''1' you?
••• 1 &II nov ta.l.ltl.11' .p.clf1ca.l.ly .bout the one telephon. ca.l.l
you told Hi. Vor.hip lbout, -- what 1. It that do Dot .urprl ••
•• ?
"y ,. DO It 111 ay qu •• tioll. pl •••• , viII you pIe ••• ana .. r.
VII there l.Dytblll.& 111. wba.t the ,cculI.d told you 011. the 'phon. 30
vhich VI •• urprldn& to you? --tbe only thinl VI. the •• ntion
/of ...
- " ot t~othy aklpp1nc the country
T •• , the Iccu •• d by the way will tIll Hi. Wor.hip that h'
•• attoned the A.H.C. to you, in teet that the report va. that
h' had lone to the A.N,C.-that 11 flaothy? •• no h, did not t,ll
.1 that he had lone to joio the A,N,C.
Mow Vllry .ell, and you are clear that you •• ked bi, DO
que.tiona about what h' told you 00 the 'phooe,I rep.at that
question, to pya ILD opportunity to reflect,to you.--I did not
I.k hill anythillj:.
How I want you pl.... to addr... your ,1nd to the ,vlning 10
whln the pollcl came, that 1e the unique •• the oo1y IVl olD&
that you evlr went to the I c cua,d" bou ••• - __ T ••.
Just tIll Hie Worlhip bow did th11 c o.. about tbat you .... 1'. Inv1 tId to the bou., or that you cot into the bolla. tor the
!ir.t t~.? --In .tt.et 10 , lontha beelu,. you told UI it
••• toward. t~Od ot May, __ He ',ld .1 are going to a bioscope
Yee and tben?---we did not attend the bioscope
Well, did you go to .. ~ •• bioscope?---"
I .ean I don't want to pick this out of you like eplace
of dent1etry, just teU Hie Worehip in your own 1angua,e bow 20
you ca.e to the hou,e?--- He ,.id to .e to go to .y si,ter and
a,k per.ission that I go witb hi. to a bioscope, I indeed did
ADd?--my ,ister sranted the per.i,aion.
Yea?-__ Ac cused Mo. 1 c .. e to fetch me though he didn't
Yee?---Va then proceeded to hia parents home,
Did you e,k h1a any qu!'tiona?---I did not a,k b1a any
Then you came to the parenti' hollle?--Yu
And why d1d he 10 to the parent" home?----Ha took .e into
lhi ....
b.1, b,drooa and 'sid h' would coae back.
Did you .. k b.111, ' this i' rather ,tranle, ... re loiq to
• cin ... why lIust you put .e in the bedrooll ' ?--- l knew that
the bioscope would only ,tart .t lIidniibt.
v.s it the tirst tiae you entered his bedrooa?--- Tee it wa
Now when you eotered the house , did you aeet b.1s aother?---
Ve .eot 1n throu&b the front door, and the Bother wee 1n the
kitchen
Tes, .nd were you introduced to her?---Tes, he did .
Tou re.lize what the .ard 'introduce' lIe.na, that it i, the 10
fir,t tiae that you aet and that you were presented? ---I .. sn't
seeins bel" tor the tirst tiae
But you vere beinl presented to her tor the tir,t tiae,in-
troduced?---Te" 1t v.s.
V.s No . 1 uhaaed at you1hat he kept you .way troll hi'
house? Or v.s there ,ollethins _barre .. iq?---l dO not know
at anythins.
Riibt, now he put you 1n the badrooa and he clo,es the
dOOr, does he do that?---Ye, he did
Where wa. hi • .other .t that st.le?---she was in the kitchan 20
V., tbere any understanding that you v.re loins to epend
the niibt thara?---Atter he had talked to hi, triend" yes
You would then ,pend tbe niibt with b1a?---Yas
How would the cines. fit into that? - it w.s attar 12
o'clock then.
That you would 10 to the cin .... ? Or that you had CD ••
b.ck tro. the cinBIII.?-lkl. tb. position is ve wer~to 10 to
• bio,cope wblcb ,tarted st lIidn1Sht. 12 o'clock. The di'cu.
sian with his triends l.,ted to well atter twelva, and it was
only .tter 12 that he told ae I would apeod the olSht .
And what tiae would ycu ,.y it wae _beo be put you in the
/bedroOlll • •
,0
- n - If GX9'!A b.c1roo.?--lt ........ t nlCbt, I don't rell_ber ... hat tiM it .....
Vell ,1v. ua •• Juat try and Ilelp ua?--1 'IIOuld ... y before
or after 9.
So you .... ited about} bour. ln the h.drooa?-__ Y ..
Never once op.n1nc the door?--th. door .a.n't lock.d, h.
bad only pulled lt ahut.
That 1. what I ... aylna. lt 1 •• y queatlon,.ltbout openln«
the door.-Ho I dld not open the door, bec . u" h. had aald
to .e he 'IIOuld coaa b .. ek, 10 I was under the 1.pre •• lon that
he ... not ln tha houae.
Yel, but than he c .. e b.ek? --He c ... b.ck y •• and th.n h.
atarted dl.euaalng ••
AbOl.lt .hat tt. •• owd 101.1 a.y h. e ... h .. ck .1th hle frlend.?
--.t .bout 10.
And lt .... 1000eta. aft.r 12 tbe.t be l.ft .ith thea?--Yell
[)WOlnC that p.rlod. the door ..... clo •• d all th" ta.?
He c... b.ck to tell .e that •• 'IIOuld not be colnc to a mOTl.
&.11.,..01"
At what atag ..... that?--- ••
10
Were the frl.ndl there. war. th~rl.ndll colne? Or had gone? 20
-aft.r he had co •• b .. ek dth hia frl.nd., and durlng their
pr ••• ne. ln the houa., h. came to the bedroOR to t.ll ."
So then whet w.r. you walt1ng for? ___ ••
If b.re wall no cln'III" ln line, what w.re you .... ltlng for?
-He told me that I 'IIOuld have to .pend the nlCbt .1th h1A,
I couldn't go to any other place becaua ... y .1at.r ,a ••• e
permle.lon to iO to •• 0.1. that 'IIOwd .tart .t 12 o'clock
unt11 the lIornlng,
It ",owd atart .t 12 o'clock untll .. --the mornlng.
Well, If you forilve my 19norance. 1t .ounda 11ke a re- 30
mark.ble c1n ••••• here 1a th1. clna.a?---at the Ayethu clna.a
11t ..
• "
1 t 1. known. the Ay.tbu Cin ...
And run- fra. 12 o'clock until daybr.ak?---Y,e, tbe .1d-
Diiht yee
So you "ere COl~o spend the nl&bt 1n hi. badrooa?---I be.
yo= pardon?
Tou .ere coin, to _pend the night in hie badrooa1---Ye.
Alright, DOW. I think you've .,1d they turned the radio on.
---Te.
00 •• No, 1 wben h'" rot triend. otten play the radio?---
I don't know becau.e this .... the first tillS I tad lone to hi. 10
parent'. hou." and there .ere friends,
Raveyau •• ld •• d1d you ,et the iapr ••• ioD that he turned
the rediD on eo that you couldn't bear •• that 1. witb the lnteo-
t10D that you shouldn't he. r.
__ that 1e what I thought,
Did I ,et your evidence clear?
Why sbould you think that?---becaua. firstly h' lett and
.ben he cu. beck, h. CUlII .itb frienda ot bie, and tile radiO
wal turned on quite loud,
Ie it unusual to have the rad10 on, I am talk1nS about 1n
your aoc1ety, to turn the rad10 on when there are tr1ends?--- 20
It 1e 'omethine usual.
Then why .bould yo~ think he ia tryine to cover up? --
Well what I know 1a when o~e 1~rienda, the redia .hould not
be opened up, ahould not be turn,d up loud.
But you 'v, juet told Hia WorShip that in your soc1'ty "
in which you live, he and you, ite not unuaual to have the
radiO on, are you s,yinS 1t 1a unusual to have the radio on
loud? That ie when triend, are preeent?---that is w~ I ..
Why do you hav, such an ide,? ---",
$olle people turn the radiO on loud, and ,01lle people don't. 1 ___ _
'0
- 21 -
--Well I have not bator. that data.heardth. radion in hla , bousa.hia ho ••• b.ing play.d ao loud. lt 11 the tlrlt tl.e
Hav. you heard ltbalng pllyed at all? a.cau •• you 'v. o.v.r
baen th.r.. how could you .. y wh.th.r the r.dl0 .... playad or
not?--lt 11 tb. house Ju.t behind oura. ona belr. ev.rythiog
happening ovar ther.. evan it people are dlacus.lng one you
bear wluot they are dl1cusaiog
Yea. but we are talklng about May when wlodo .. are cloaed
lt la cool at nigbt. I .. J~t suggeatlog that you have no bl-
ss tor lu".atlog that tb. radio In hia boUle va. turn.d 00 .pe- 10
citic &lly •• particularly loudly baarina in .1nd you'Ye nevar baen
In hia bouae. ---what aurpr1aad •• 1a that be wea wlth !rlends
at the tt •• that the radio vaa being play.d loud. but b.tore
the tri.nda had co.eJn. 1~ .. sn·t beina plsy.d lOUd. , But waa h. there?--h ••• nt to the pll c, to t.tcb the tri. nds
And c .. e blCk wltb th ••• ---Yes
So what i. the r.levanci ot tba rsdl0 not being pllyed b.
tor. tbey c ... blck? They 't'nned the radiO on, --No, the radiO
was on, whilst h ... a gone, but lt vaa b.ing play.d aottly.
And it w .. swltch.d loud attar he had arrlved wlth triands.
V.ll, I want to put lt to you now that the accus.d, that
your v.ralon rather ot what happen.d thia night, la ln tlCt
I total tabricltlon, and t hat the tlr. t point I put to you
and that youcan answer ia t~t ln tact .y underatanding la
that tb. radiO •• an't .v.n working at that period. --No what
he told ., la that the radio he vaa ualng belonged to hia ~
renta, It. an old r.dio, and b. WI' uslng a .otorcar battary
to op.rate It •• b,caua, his K1 tl .,t had baan r.poaa,ased by
the turn1tur. p.ople, turnitur. ahop.
W.ll, 1 .. not golng to argue wlth thia, the accu,.d'a 30
veraion wlll b. that ln tact trylng to U" an external battery
lb • •••
'0
- 22 - N 9XO'f6
be bl .. the b.thry or r.ther the r.d10, that 1t .. sn't work-
1.D, .t the U ..... that you talk ot, tor aontha and .. ontha betore.
--1 t .... pl.y1rl4r th.n Sir, pO .. 1bly ther.att.r
No .. when you beard the accuaed and hi. tr1ends coae in, you
•• d1d you ,0 to ths door ani lst.n? -- pardon?
D1d you ,0 to ~ door and 11atsn?---Jo I dld not,
You wouldn't .py on your lov.r? -- I would not do It, No
I would .ot spy on • p.r.on I love
I just want to •• tab11.h your own •• ntallty, you would con-
.1der .pyirl4r on • lover . sbaa.tul thina.--to ae It 1s not. 10
100d thin&:.
s.o.eth1rl4r you would n.nr do.-- No I would not do 1t
You weren't prepared to 11.t.n throuab • door, but you were
pr.pared to look into .br1etc ••••• and ha.t11y put the ltuft
' .. y when you heard tbe .. coa. bliek. __ I .. nt.d to ••• what
it '1'" that he w •• h1d1.n, troa _.
Why " ,ou M, b. _.
hid1~--h1. br1etc.ae
Vb, " ,ou u, b. w .. hidina? YOll",", b.en 1n hi. bouae tor
t ... tirst ta. ~d he'. aot • briefc.ae, 1n t.ct h. d1dn't,
but let ua ao alona w1th you tor the aoaent, and ,ou '.y he
1& h1din& it troa you?_" put 1t in • wardrobe ~d tbo<
lbowed .a he Will hid1n& 1 t.
But 1f one puta tb1naa il I wardrobe that you want to tor
.at. cu.atody, --1t he had not warned a' not to to\ICh the
brietellle, .y eurloaity would not have been arousad
that 1a, he warned you ~ot to toueh the br1ete.a •• ___ Y ••
he a.1d '0.
that IWit have upllIt yOIl beeaWie lov.ra don't talk 11k.
that do they?-Y ..
Soalthina: yOll will nl.,,:- tor,et th1a .an a.yina cion' t
toueh ay briate.aa. -- I hava not forgottan 1t th.n
lAM ...
20
"
- 23 - H QljOlA
And you bav.n't. torcot.t.ln about It. at all becaut. It. hurt
you._ T ••
Vby dldn't you t.ll Hi. Vorlhlp about It In your .~ldlnce-
In_cbiet? __ •••
I'll roll thla que.tlon UP. why dldn't you t.ll H1. Vor
.hlp about It In .~ld.nce-ln-ebiet and th.n wh.n I Invited you
on at lea.t on. occ •• lon to r.tleet aD wh.ther you had ,iv.n
the cO'plete v.r.ion at the evenlne" .vente, and whath.r
there waa anythltlyou ... tatt.d to add, you dldn't .dd it, you
.ad. no ret.r.nc. to It.---1 .pok. about the bri.tc ••• , re- 10
•• Iber I .pok. at • bard eov.r.
But you n.ver .ald h. told you not to touch It. Th. tbin,
which hurt you.-••
I. th.r. an anlw.r?---Tou .ay I dld not aat ••• ntlmot
what?.that I .hould not touch the br1.t c ... ?
That 11 corr.ct. --I dld not thlnk ot I.ylne It, b.clue.
I Ind.ed took the brl.tca •• and look.d .t It.
But you wer. Invlted to ,lv. I coapl.t. ICCOunt at that
ev,Dlq. Tou .... r. lDvlted to add anrthlnkbat you _ted.
--... But you tor,ot the tone thine wb.1ch hurt you, and that is
he 1.1d don't touch. ---... ell it dld not hurt .e ao .uch that
I could not .p.ak .bout 1 t,
Beelue. h. 'Ild dOD't touch, you then declded tbat you
w.r. pr.pared .. It .... re to apy on ~.--Tea beeluea ot what
he alld na-aly that I ahould not touch 1t and then l •• vln,
and coaiac b.ck wlth frlenda.
V.ll to coat blck to your .entality, don't you In your
ova aind think tba.t 1 t la ahalletul to look 111. I bri.tc •••
20
wh.n you .... r •• pee1tically .. ked Dot to?---that i. the ICtual }O
r •• aons why I looked lDa1de, beelu.e h. told .18 not to do .0.
ITou ...
- 24 - l!' VXOWA
You nlver tboulbt it .~etu1. ___ ln what I dld,no.
Vb.n you •• v th ••• docualnt., verI you .urprl.ed, didtbey
havI I.DY .18.Il.1na: to you?_I ..... ell I va •• hocked wen I aaw
tbl wblt w •• wrltten on It.
And what va. wrlttln on It?---"Thl Youtb R.volution COUD-
"Tb. Youtb Re.olutlon Councll". __ Yea
I juat want to repe.t lt a .. in, it 1. writt.n "Th. Youtb
Revolution Councll"?---" The Youth Revolution Councl1 .nd
Afrlc. tor all" and ao •• ZUlu po.'s, I did not reed tbroulb lt 10
I just looked at It.
Have you ev.r b .. rd ot tn. orlanlr.atlon or tblnl callld
tbl Youtb Rnolutlon Council ?---No
You bad beard ot •• l tbink abe .aid Afric. tor tbl African.
or Africa tor all?-Afrlc, tor ell.
You had beard ot that?---l vaa .e.i~ tbi. tor the tirst
tae.
I ee., and what Ilsl ~ld you r •• d, thol' two things, tb.
nea. "Afrlca tor all" and wbat else?--- ·The Youtb Revolution
CoUDcil aDd Africa tor all" and I jut pac.d tbrough tbe book 20
and .0 .aw so •• ZUlu po ••••
Yea, now lt tbat .vldence w.s true, vhlt could hive
lbocked you?-You never beard ot tbt Youtb Revolution Council
or il lt that tbe wordl "Afric. tor ell" sbocked you?-Th,
Youth Revolution Councl1 and Afrlc. tor all, le wbat ,hock.d
••• But you had no ide. ot what the Youtb R.volution Council
was, tor all you knev it .i&bt have b.en • bowlinl club, --
well I tbougbt it ..... it bad to do witb A..N.C., I am sorry,
sOIl.thine to do witb polities. 30
Soe.thine to do witb politic.. And .bln you , •• Acculed
I .. or ..
- 25 - If crop
1t had aoaethin& to do ... itb pol1tica, --T ..
But you d1dn't kno ... '<Ibet?--Jilot exactl,.
&.it pol1 tica 1a a01lathilli whicb all aorta ot p.ople ha.e
1ntereat 1n. Thera are .... 11 known politic1ans 1n So .... to wbo
n ••• r ,.t arr .. t.d. Why .bould thia ,bock ,ou1--you •• an
p.opl. who don't ,.t arr.ated?
T .. , thaI" ara po11tlc1ana 1n sa .... to, .... 11 known paople
whetb.r tb.y are counc1110r. or anytb.11l1 .1,., don't ,.t ~.,
ted.---Ko what I know S1r &Del what I ha •• heard 1a that a per- 10
aOD ... ho 1. 1nvolv.d 1n po11t1ca I.t arr.at.d.
Ia thet what you thouibt? So ... hat you are tal111l1 Hi, Wor
.hip 1a that you .... 1' •• bockt<l bac:.ua. ,OU tboupt Mo. 1 could
I.t arr •• t.d?--T ••
Tou lov.d ~, you d1dn't want ~ to ,.t 1nto troubl ••
--y.a. I d1d.
So ,OU .uat ha •• aa1d to bill 'wMt ar. you up to'?- .... ,
I ... ked b.1at ..... about th •• 0Ulr ear.
Wh.n d1d you aak b.1.lbout that?--I waa •• when I .ak.d hi.
about the aotorcar, I ..... at111 .t .y a1at.r '. pl.c. b.tore 20
101n, to hie boUle . I told h.1a that I had ... n a aotor car 1n
the :raNI.
!hat 11 a J'eoUl.ot. --Tn
V .. thllt .. you .. e aM1n( 1t tor the f1rat t1.a.?---tbe
aotor ear? I thlnk it w ... bout tbe thlrd ceca'ion that I bad
.. en 1t. I did not Iulo ... that be .. d .tolen thia .,hlel., but
I heard hia t.thar w .... yinl that he baa crown t1red ot .0-
tor eara that ara parked th.re which Stanley ateala, ba will
aoon call tbe pol i e ••
Vh1eb No. 1 at.ala and he'll aooner call the po11c •• -Y.. ,0
So ... hat you underatand _a that tbe tather .... a a,yiD, j}bat ••
- 26 - II m::OWA
that •• the tether tbo~t tl:lat the Peu.eot wa •• tol.n.--He dld
not tblnk '0, be kA.w It Wl' .tolen, b.c.u.e h ••• 1d .0.
ADd it AccUl.d 110. 1 _1'" to produce pe.p.ra whicb .bow
tbat h. bouiht th. eer 11"01 ••• 11.1" In the prop.r cour'e,could
YOll bav. an .xplan.tlon a. to why th. 1.ther .bould bIITe thouaht
tbat?-bl. t.tber ....... y1~ that b. bIId arovn tir.d ot car.
that hi •• 011. .t.Ill ••
I Ju.t .... tlt to •• alrl&ht, then you .. 1I:.d Ste.nley .bout
that? About the Dotor car?--I dld
VeIl Ju.t tell .... what dld yOIl •• 11: ~?---I •• id to hi. 10
I h.ard your t.th.r .p.aking about .otor cer. that you .telll,
do you .teal aotor cer.. He .aid h. lOt thl •• otor car 1"1"011
K111: ••
Did h. d.ny h •• tOI. it?
lI.ot • .a.lt
When dld you h.ar the t.th.r •• y .... II:. the .p.ech .bout
.11..111.& tired - b.tor. 10111.& b.ck, that 1. b.tor. Mey
A.1hr th1 •• 1&ht?-Atter the A1&ht 1a qu .. tion
110 th.1I. I .. err.ld that you are Introducin, thlnp
wblch er. quite irr.l.¥ant. Pl •••• will you pe.y attentlol1. to 20
qu .. t1one. --I und'r,tand
I J .... t want to 'xplain on. thl~, IUd a&ll:e one th1n& cleer
.cc ..... d 110. 1 wl11 not d.ny that he had cert.ln 1nTolv .. entl
with Saco ... ber. but he d.nle. C.t'lOriclllly that h, bIId any
docu-entation at the tile tbat you "ntion.d.---••
I. that your T.r,lon,that you •• w theee docUII.nt. The
Youth Revolution Council, 1, • l1ct10n.--v.ll I •• w tbi.
docu-.nt
then I a.k IY qu .. t1on wblch you didn't ane_r, rel..,&II.t-
ly. d1d you •• y to Stenley wbat ere you up to? -
IAr ... . '0
- 27 -
Ar. you Up to po11tl~ ••• are you JOln, to ,.t lnto trouble
---I ask.d ~ about that .att.r. I a,k.d ~ what doeua.nt
tb.111 va ••
Oh Y'II, you a,k.d b.1 •• ---h. 'ald to e. that be do •• not
want a ,lr1 who 1. his 10Ter to know .v'rythin, that h. le dolnl
Dld you tell the po1ie. tbat?---I.s. I dld
W.11, the prosaeutor hasn't asked you that qu.stlon. It
sounds as lf lt 111 not ln your stst.eent and that you •• d. lt
up now.---Ho, I Dot think of thls now.
B.eause the proseeutor would bave been very anzlous to 10
,.t that lntoraatlon fra- you, bad you ln fact told the po11e.
that.--- •••
And that 1a why I .. puttln, to you speelfleally that
that ls sometb.1nl you had lnvented nov, because lf lt 1, ln
your stat_ent the prol.eutor can eh.ek.- ... 11, lt ls pos
,lb1e that lt vasn't .ention.d In that •• I don't Ip.ak Atrl_
kaans 10 ve11, 'Y 'tatement va. ,1ven and wrltten ln Afrlkaans
But you told that to the pollee •• you told us.---I •• n-
tloned thie posslbly not .0 well beeeuse of .y not knovlnc
Afrlkaans well.
wal your stat_ent not lnterpreted to you? ___ there was
an lnterpreter
ADd he lnt.rpret.d?--ye., lt vas ln ZUl.u
Then why are you talklns about Afrlkaans when you lpoke
ZUlu1_Ho, I alii lay1nl: tl:!.e lnt.rpr.t.r val ZUlu
I.I, but he .. then the fact that your Afrlkaanl valn·t I
lood, 11 totally lrrelevv.t. --- He ealle". ZUlu po11ellllllll
to eo •• and lnterpr.t for •• , whllat I .pok. Xhola,
Yes, 10 you told the pollee through an interpr. t'r?
20
The lnterpret'r val t.11lng the p011ee.an •• r .. lOrry. the 30
lnterpreter vas te111ng .~ what the p011eeman val s aylns, but
/te111ns ••
" - If qJO!A
telllll1 •• 1t1 ZuJ.u.
Did you au".r ha 111 ZUlu?-T ..
hd .... the pollc~ wrlt~ .. atat'.ene?-Mo, .ttlr
be had co.pleted wr1t1nc.
Yel, tbln did hI writ. out • It.t_ent?-a atat ... nt .. I'
writtlD ,
Containing the In!o~.tl0n. III the In!ol''llltlon that you
told hat-that 11 corract
And ~t va. inter-prated back to )'ou1--- ••
1.D tbe ZUlu lana-ca.-T •• , tblot 11 aorrlct
So c ... you tdl .... by you. bloC! li.,a .. cOIIpllhly irTe
l •• ant to •• y the l ••• t, explanat10n tbatyoUl' Afrikaan. ian't
tlonld thls blea ... & you •• ked .... by I dtd not tIll th, policl
What I bad jult ,.1d to you
I d on ' t under,tand, but you d1d tdl the p011cI, __
But you didn't tdl in 4trikuna I tbat 11 why I ..... kine
you to explain. Your a XCu.1 tbat you , ••• and that 11 that your
AtrUtaan.s .. an't pod. --Tou "y I .... n't ap1ak11l1 1. Atrl-
That 11 your 1 .. 1dlncl,-1 _poke in Atr1kaant , VIII than I don't know whether you are tlDt t"ll~.ll.
b.eIWlI you· .... j\at told IU tbIot you 'pok. in Zulu, -No, I
.aid .y .tat .. lnt 'III' ,iv.n and 1ITlttlll ill Atrik.&III, but the
~r.on who intlrpr.t.d tor .e Wll. Zulu .peuilll.
'!'hIlt i. ¥lot what you •• id, wht,t you •• id wa. tbat your
~ik'IlD' va.n't lood aad you don't know wh.tb.r you Ilxprl.
." it proplrly.--Y •• , I .pokl in A1'rikallD.l, '0 bal! .u"
witb ~&1i.b , but tbe per.on 1ITitlnc Utlder.tood wbat wa ••• ld.
But you ju.t told u. that it Will inhrprlted . How you
arl talklng Ilbout hal! .1:1:" with !nCli.b.-No, the int.rpre
Itlr •••
10
20
'0
- 29 - N GXO!A
teer w .. called ao .a to c_e and interpret to ae clearly
whet 1. cont.1ned 1n ay at.te~ent.
I .. DOt g01ng to.,I •• Ir. you one que,t1on, and 1 .. going
to leave thi., you' .. e given WI three .. er'ions .a to What lan
cua,e you uaed, _a .. did you speak Atrilr.aana, or. ai.xt\lre ot
A1rik,ana and EnCl1th or did you .pealr. Zulu?--..... y atat .. ent
_a be1D, taken down, 1 apoke in Atrikaans.
Then why did you taU Hia Worahip that you apoke in ZUlu?
-I did not a.y that 1 apoke ZUlu
Vall, then •• --I a.id the per.on who va. interpreting the 10
.t.t .. ent btlck to .e. w .. ZUlu .peak1D,
1 am alraid that your evidence very clearly •• w .. it ZUlu
or Xho .... w •• tnat you apoke Zulu. It i. very clearly and .y
learned triend the pro.ecutor would not let .et put tnat ques
tion to you 1t it vaan't rilht. ---Your Vorship the poa1t10n
ia ay Itc.te.ent w •• taken down •• wben _y at. te.ent va. taken ••
be111& taken down. I .poke in Atrilr.aane and the 1Ih1 to peraon
who vaa writing then calltd an 1nterpreter .0 at to aakt
eure that what he nad taken down is "nat I nad I.id.
1 .. now 101ng to deal with the teltphone converl.tion. 20
And I w11l repe.t a1 invit.t1on to you. i' there anything
that you want to .dd to what you ha.,e described •• that
convtra"tion. --1 have nothinl turtber to lay, to tell you
What you have indic.ted i, •• to ~a Vor,hip 1. that
the .ccu.ed told you very little .bout bi .. elt •• and when I
."y .ccu.ed, I want you to re.d Accu.ed No.1, do you So
.lons with that?-tMt 11 correct
You had no ide. whether he "'. involved in politic' or
not? you .ean .t the tial hi 'phoned .e?
No, no, no, while yo\.! were with h.1a 1n Johanne.burg.--- 30
/Jo t •••
- 30 - N GIO ....
-it i' only the M-hfca .. that 'hocked .e
Ye., but he .i&ht have been holdiq •• ke.piq 1ttlr lI_e_
body elae? lor all yOU lUlew1--I would never know 1 t
Ye', now he 'phoned you up and he aak. you •• perbap' I
,hould a.k you, tall UII what ... hill raqu .. t to you when he
'pboned you1-He a&1d I ,hould or,anize Io.e boy, 1..11 Cradock
II that a11 be .&1d1-..
A. far !III the request cou?--he further .aid he vould
co.e doWQ to Cr.dock to fetcb the. .0 .. to aceo-pany h1a
Now wbat did you und.rltand by ·organize-? __ ••
What doe, or,an1z1!1 .ean to you?--to br1q people to,atbar
For wbat purpoae1--.,
How would you M-111S tho tosatber? What did you umer-
atand thet he wantad you to do? -Br1na the. to,ethar~ what
do you lIay to the.?-__ hll told .e that he would taka the. to
Bott_
But it i. 11ke or,aniz1n, tor a pirate tazi. ,et people
togather and lIay we w111 take you to Bohwane.-...
I Juat wE you to exple1n to Hill Worllhip what you
10
thoUCht the aecWled wantecl 1'1'0. you. ___ l wouldn't know S1r, 20
why ba wanted tbeae people to ba organized, tor a party or
anything.
Yet, and you don't 1n tact •• you neYer or,an1zed 1n your
11te.--Mo, I've never
An4 it you were to orsanize, you wouldn't have had the
tainta.t 1dae vhat to ,ay to tha,a paopla other than they
.Ullt 10 to Boh_na, __ I bad lIeen writtan on the document
tbet DaIle" tbll naJIIe of an organi;zlltion and. I thought he wanted
peopla tor that organi;zatlon. I hava haard that peoPle;who go
to Bohvana.,undergo train1nl.
So you thought that 'iouth Revolut10nary Council Val an /organ1zat10n ••
'0
n -
organl:t.t1on?--T •• , I thouibt '0.
Involved in aUitary tr.lnlng?---lolleth1I1S to do with
polities
ADd to you do •• politics include al11tary trainlng?-
I don't know about it, I ...... 1~ it tor tbe firat t1.'
You •• nttoned al11tary training. --Yea
Do you think that waa the Id •• ot •• that this Council
wanted to taka people tor al11tary tr.ln1ni1--that 1. what I
tbol.lght.
l'v. ~t • ta .. prabl •• , with that, you told Hill Vorahlp 10
tbat you had no ld •• what Youth Revolution Counell a,ant,
__ 1 did not moy it prier to ".1ng this docUilent
poetry. now who enlightened you II to •• or bow w.ra you en
lightened .1 to what thi. Wall about? --wan I thought what
they atood tor , beclual vben I ,'~.d h1a .bout this thins"
ha did not want to tall ••
BY THE COURT:The que.tion 11 who enlightened you?-__ Nobody did
CROS3-IXNUNA,TIOl!' BY I!R. S9GG0T: (CONTlNU'W) Yell tben can you 20
explain your evidenc., you had no idea what it waa abouthen,
no one haa enli&htentd you,how do you ca.e}o the knowledce
which you DOW claim,that you thought it we. an orcanlzatlon
which wa. invol~td l n polltlc. wblch ... inttre.ted in .ili
tary tralning? - - -becau .. at hie be1na Itcretlve arout that
Your Yorahlp, it he •• 1t lt waan ' t thl8 kind ot organlzetion
then he would not have b.en .teretive about it.
I waDt to put it to you that you are not belng .ery can
dld with the Court, __ I .. Sir
A. tar aa t~ accuaed ie concerned, you didn't know what 30
orgtn1:r.ation be belonged to or' dld you?-No I dld not.
I It •••
- 32 - N axOVA
It could have been the Red Cro •• , it could bave been the
A.N.C. --- Yee, beeeu.e be va •• ecretive ebout it, it he va. in
tbe Red Cro •• , whicb ie ellrigbt. be would have told .e .0.
Mo but be didn't tell you thine. ebout hi. lite, tn.t il
the ettect ot your evidence, told you nothine. --Stanley wal
very lecreUve
He dldn't tell you about hi. ordlnary llte, -alto,etber
nothina:.
'Hlke' 1. tbe word you u.ed •• that 1. rilht. So be could have
belonged to tbe Red Cro •• tor ell youcare, tor III you knew. 10
----that be Juat dld not tell .e about
Yee, ot courle.---••
'han be .ald to you on tbe telepbone, ---but would be have
had reeaon to be eecratlve about Red Cro •• ?
When be .ald to you on the 'pbone, tbet you .bould or,e-
n1~e tor tbe or,en1zatlon, to or,anlze •• to'organlleer' I
think h tbe word you used, you had 110 ide. whet be ls telkin,
ebout?_I a.ked ~ whet orlanizetlon this wea, and be .eld
I .hould organlze boy. tor tn..
Over the telipbone you .. ked hi. what organ.1zatlon lt wea. 20
---I dld
The loat natural quesUoD, and his IDIwer we.?---Ht •• id
be wanted to take the .. to Botewen. but be dld not .ey what
ora:anizetion it wes.
But you a.ked him, di~D't you .ey to h1a 'tell .e whet it
is ebout'? I can't organize boy.
Botswana, tbey w111 think that I PI
in Botswen.. --- I .aid 10 to hia
in the air, and 'ey cOllIe to
takine the. to~e boliday
end what did be eay? What orgenizetion?---be did not .en-
tion a name •• ot tbe organi~ation.
Do you .ean be retuaed to answer the queetlon.---You maan
/Accu$ed •••
"
- 33 - If QtQ'I'A
AccuUd 110. l? Ie', be did
And when 70U told the police yOUI' .eraion, you told th ..
that .a .. 11, that you .aked hill what organiz.tion, and he
wouldn't ten you.-1 d1d not tall the pol1c. thia, though
I lI.ld to -th-. I dld not av" wlth Yhat he ,u,g'lIted
Why didn't you t.ll the police thia? --- I thought it .. a
not aportant tMt I .bould tell t~.
But the polic •• dd to 70U tell u.a everything what waa
.. id on the tal.pbone.--1 tbou&ht lt waa not u.por~t that I
.ballld t.ll the ...
But the polic. a.ld to 70U t.ll u.a ev.rytbil1l that w .. 0 11
the tel.pho ••• ---Ie. they •• 1d .0
So why dldn't you tell t'*'?--..
And U I .. y pat 1 t to you with Tlllpect wby not tell th ..
• bout the IIO.t ll1portant qu •• tlon in the cOllver •• tlon. -- be
CIIIII. I thouCht thll qull.tlon w •• not lIIportant that I put to
hill, I ollly tOl~the police that I dld not .cr" with M •• ug
,"tion"
But you Teallze tod.y bow lllpoTtant the qu.eation 1.1-
no reply
I. there no an4wer?--- I do r.alize that
Then wby dldnt YO~'ll Ki. WoTahlp .bout It? Wh.D the
prollecutor •• ked for tb ••• r.ion and wben I .eld to you twic.
lf not .or., la there anythiq lIore to add, --I 3ust dld not
tb.1l1k of lIentlon.1q that I uked hill what oTlanlutlon it w ..
and that h. dld not reply to .y que.tlon
Now whit you al,o told u. la that he ,.id to you that
he haa ,ot •• tolen car, and he i. ,oing to coae down in •
atolen car. to the C.pe ye.
Did it not atrike you that thi ... a an ab,urd tbJ..D& to
a'7 bKalll. h. ooulcl _v. be.n overheard? And he didn't ha.e
Ito ...
- 34 -
to tell you it ia a atolan ear . ---W.ll tbia did not aurpri.e
lie beeausa 1 knew he ataala lIotor eara
But d idn't it atrike you aa abaurd that he ahould tell you
over t he 'phone wh.n ev.rybody ineludln, th. aeeurity poliee
and the ear thett detael:aent vould h.ar, eould baar what h.
aa1d?---eould they overhear over th. phon.?
You have n.v.r bear4 or 'phOnea •• peopl. bear1nc what you
are aaying on the telephone?---1 hal" n.v.r h.ard that anybody
waa overheard over the 'phone
And you never ever been on a telephone When a tbird volee 10
wa. eOlllng .eroa.?---Ho, I'v. nn'er notlced I t
The attect ot your evid2nce ie that h. wanted you to or
ganil,. boy. and ". thell to Botawana, you , .did you uk tu. why
he wanted thell to cOile to Bot.wana, what would they do there?
-1 did not uk hi_ that , 1 only told bi_ that 1 &II unable to
do that
\'by were you WI,ble to do that?--that I eould not "\at
take oth.r people" children over and.nd thes to Johanne.bur,.
that wa. the anaver you gave tu.7---T.s
It ia an anawer which you didn't give Hi. Worship betore, 20
ita n.w in your eVldenc •• Can you reae_ber the ana .... r you gave
Hie Worahip betore7 ___ th. quaation .... a Sir7
Can you r .. ellbar what anawer you "1" Hi. Worship b.tore?
About what your reply .... a7---1 do reaeaber
What vas tbat?--- that he 'phoned _e looking tor boya in
the Cap.,that 1 told hi. 1 &II not ,oing to do It. That I was
going to ay .iat.r in Uit.nhage.
Now youare adding that you can ' t take boya to Jobanneeburg
___ It 1. the aame, I aaid to hill, 1 ..... not pr.par.d to
Do you considar that the a&lle? Rl&ht, 1 want to come back 30
to the .venin& when the police arriv&d, the accused had hie Itriends ..
- 35 - If GlOWA
frienda on the other aid. of the door. --- y ••• that i. obYiou.
Did you hear them l.av.?--- he cu. to tell.. that h. wa.
takin& hia triend haltway
HdtYay to w'-r.?--he d1d not .ay up to wher ••
ADd h. didn't invite you to co •• w1th th •• ? ___ No. h. d1d not
And did •• th.n h. cu. baek?--H. did
It .u.t have b •• n •• nt. d.partur • .u,t have b •• n v.ry bri.t
you juet had time to op.n the bri.te.... a. t und.r.tand your
eT1d.nc •• t.ll •• it I .. wronl, to op.n the bri.tc.... look
tbroup the docu..nta and put 1 t back a,ain •
.... n. tell ua what happ.n.d .tt'T'II'ard.?
thill docUilent?
It 1a corr.ct 10
aft.r reading
ilter he Call. b.ck.- he c ... into hi. rooll, the b.drooll,
juat b.fore h. c ... to bed th.re .. ~ knock at the door. and
tnta ... the police.
Did you have no convlrllation with bJ.II?_ ••
Froll the t1m. that he c ... beck?---Until the tim. that the
po11c. cam.?---No th.r. ... no chenc. b.caua. a1nut.. att.r he
had COlI. in, that the pollc. knocked
I have one problem with that. I "y tnt, .ubject to correc- 20 ,
tion, tNt hav.n't you toldH1' Wor'bJ.p that you allked h.1..oI ebout
the pap.r, that you ,.w? ___ ••
S1r. that ill .y r.collection,.lIylearn.d triend •• ye that
it ill corr.ct, I am not very .ure .bout 1t. ---the polic. took
bJ.II away . and h. c .. e b.ck and than I u,k.d hi.,
How long did you w.it tor hi. to co •• back?--- I lett •• I
tb1nk h. calle back att.r two d.y ••
W.ll I und.retoed your .videne. dift.rently, but do you
know why the polie. e ... . what did they e,y, what wa. the r.a
eon tor co.lng1---th. polle. that took him?
.... are only talking .bout on. lot ot po11c •• ---they .,ked
Itor ••
"
- 36 - H 0xoYA for Stanley Radebe •• where Stanley Radebe ia
Yea, but let \a not (0 through •• I am aakina: a aaple
queltion, what waa the rea.on that they were catchina: hill? __ _
they eaid they ara arreltin, ~ for a lIotor Tehicle that he
atolen and aold
Well, I juat wen t to tell you that your eVidence il a total
fabrication, becauae Acculed in fact waa arreated on a char,e
ot atte.pted 1I0tor car theft, on the lat of Novaaber, 1960,
whenrcu were well out of the ~ansvaal. The lat of Hove.ber,
1960, aDd the pollce only came to hia houae well atter that 10
when they rearre.ted him lor the Ia.e char,e. In other worda
I .. puttina: it to you that your eVidence il a total fabrica-
tion bac.uae you were well out of the ~anlvaal by the tilla
the accuaed had trouble with an atteaptad 1I0tor car charie ••
Motor car theft cbar,e.---It could hava been another occaaion
It could ha.a been ~other occalion, ---ao it ia polalbla
1D 1960
Well, let ua juat ull: you, what aotor car was tba pollca
lnteraltad in at that Ita,e?---I do not know
1I'he.t car dld ba hava? In Kay 1960.---He dld not hava a car 20
tben.
ADd did tha pollce not lay what car? Aa Opel,Mercedel
Ben~, Pe~eot7 ___ 1 vel .hocked there and I val in the b~roo.
Yea, it .. y be. but two dayl latar he cale back.---Yea
Old you uk hill what car val it about?---He only told at
that it WII a motor car be had lold to hil uncle ln Fiat Ratief
but did not tell lie what aake of 1I0tor car.
Did you not •• dld he not lay that hi. troubla vaa in con
nection with a Marcadaa Ben:r.?---Ho.
Becauae it wa. on a charie relatins: to an attempted theft ,0
of a Mercedel Ben:r. •• that he val arreated but lIUch later.
INo ••
H - N GlOWA
--No. this vas betore
When vere.,you ,ave, atateaent to tbe police, ---Yea
I did.
Did they COllI to YOIU' houae?-tha Itatalllnt vas DOt taken
down at .y parente ~ • •
No but just an. .. ar ., que.tion, did they eo •• to your house?
---Tea
What ta. ot day or nlSbt?--Tbay c .... at nl&ht
Yhattt •• ? ___ at about •• 1t va. past ten •• or batore teD.
How ll8..Dy .. era thera? _ _ tbr •• Wh.1t •• aDd on. Xhosa
Do you know their nu •• ?--I do not know
W .. it in Cradock?-It va. in Ul tenha,.
When? (nol •• on tapa) -- the 25th ot "*1 1982 •• ot Mareh
sorry 1982
And Which houao YOre you 1n7-1 val at the houae ot ay
boyfriend
What 1e hie naaa?-- pu.u1n.a ", .. haella
ADd where do •• he l1ve?--w. atay in the .~. 10cat10n
Qu.a Hob\u, ToWl1.8h.1p.
10
What did tbey • .,.?--They asked a. what ,y nus _a, and 20
.,ked •• where I attended sCOool, tbe police started •• arching
the house there at .y boyfriend " , They then told ae t~t
to get dre,,"', they were tllll:in, ae along, fro. there we pro
ceeded to ay hoae.
You auat bav. got. t.rrible friiht?---Yea, very auch
You've never b.en arreate~efore •• let alone at night.---
it it to .
by well _rained aen?-__ Yea
Who were not in un1fora?- --y.t
How they took you fro. your boyfriend's houseto your
.other'e houae.---to ay aiater. /Your ••
30
- 38 - If ClOVA
Your aiatar. In Uitenhage.---Yes
What did they do theEl.? ___ they asked .e who .y boytriend was
1n JohaIlneaburg, I told th ...
StaDley Radebe , ---Ye., I did so.
Yere you upset when you real1zed that they wanted eo.e 1n
toraation about Stanley Radebe?---It shocked .e,
Would you have been concerned about his satety? ___ Yea
So they a aked you tben who 1a your boy triend , youtold
them, then what happened?--- Yes
Where did they ask you this?
where?--- at .y aiater's place.
In the police ottice or
Right , then carry on, ___ my s1ster'a place .aa alao aearcbed
Vas she preaent at tbe tile ot the discussion?---Not then
Ve .ere o~ our "7 out .hen they eaked . e , and then we .ent
baclr. into the houae and I atood outaide, they only went in aay
ing they . ere going to tetch .y reference book
And tben .here did you go?--1 waa taken into the .otorcar
and they lett with . e .
Where to?---Yent to Humanadorp
10
'to tbe police ottice?-- ita a jail .. I don't know Whether 20
ita a geol, but there wer a police.an
Did they put you in a cell?--- Yaa , I elept in a cell
Did they arres t you?---Arreated in .hat charge?
I am aaking you, were you arrested • • or did you consider
yourselt arralted?-..
They did aD under what or in connection with what?-
It waa et night whan they .,whan I waa apprehended by tha po
lice Your Vorship , thay .ara quite nice to .e, I did not think
I waa arrelted because they were asking De about Stanley.
But nonethela.a they put you in a cell. ___ T"
Did you talk to tha. aga1n1-__ they cama back the tollow1ng
/day • •
"
- J9 - If G39JA
day •• aDd took . e .
to an oftlce . --Ye.
Where you were lE1tefTopt~?_I .... que.tioned ye'
How .any people pre.ent?- - - by two White people, oEle tlr.t
aDd then aAother one
AEId wbat dld th.y ... k you?-aek1nc .e about Stanl.y
T.n us epecifically what ..... aektd?--th.y ... ked .e when
I l.tt JohanEl.ebur" how I lett and I told thea .
Tee. _ tbey aek.d .e it we were .till corre,poEldlng, .e
and Stanley.
1960 and that WI were Dot writlD1 to OEI. another.
Te', ~t dld you und.r.taDd fro. th ••• • what intereet~
the. about Stanl.y?-- - ••
Kotor car thett, or vhat?-th.y told ae that be va. 1n
... ol ... ed In politic.
Ol d they 'ay what or,anlzatlon?--no they dld Qot •• y,th.y
dld not t.ll a. but 1Det •• d th.y .aid I know.
ney .eid you know?--T.e
But you then told t~JOu dOQ ' t knoW?- I told th .. that
I .... not iElvol .... d ln thi. thin,. !bat you didn ' t know Stanley wee in ... olved in politlc •• --
I told thea about boob the.t I had .ean
WhYdid you do that? Did you want to ,.t Stanley into , trouble?-- -Ho I did not want to let h1a into trouble, but I , wa. ana.erlDi que.tiona .bout Wba~h'Y were ... kiDi.
TNt ie your duty perhap. but I .. lDi.reete<l you .ee
lEI your .tat. ot .ind , you a •• law abiding citi~en to '1 ....
proper In.toraatloEl r.quired by the pol1c •• -_they told ••
what Stanley wa. In,,ol''ad in doing
10
20
Y •• , that i •• o •• - -and I had known about tbt. thing, '0
/1Ihat •• •
- ( 0 - N CIOn
What dld they tell you that Stanby haa been dolfli:?
they add to •• that 3tlltlley told the. that 1M had 'phoned .e
in the Cape, to orlanlze boya tor hia.
What dld you aay about that?-I eald to thea that he had
'phoned lie 1I000e tille afO.
ADd what elee did the polle. tell you?-the police then
told .e that they eaid they ht.d IIITelited h1a
Yell, tor wbat?---aoaething to do with politlea
Did they .ention the nue ot an organization? ___ No, they
did not tell .e an orcanlZ1tlon.
01d •• are you telling Hill WOrllhip that the polle e never
once allked about an organization called Saeo?_No they d1d
DOt tell .e about Saeo, I told thell what I had eeen ln the
book.
But wby dld you tell thea that, tbey ht.ven't even allked
you?---No, wht.t the pollee dld .. II to put lt to lie that I
know Wbat Stanley 1e 1nvolved in doLDI and then I told the.
what I ht.d lIeen ••
But didn't you tirat try and protect stanley '.0 __
10
I wall IIcared, I all not ueed to the pollee, I told ' thell right 20
didn't you tlrllt lIay to the.lOu know nothing about hill
lnvolvellent In po11t1ell? J.a~u,.,e told Hill Worllhip today that
you knew nothina:, why didn't you tell the poUee the 118111e
th1ng?---Oid I lIay to Hill Worllhip that I know nothing?
No, that he wall lIecretive and that you ht.d noldea what
organization he belonged to? Or what he wall doifli:?---No, I
8111 apeaking thi ll t1.ae ebout what I bad lIeen perllonally and
not what he had told .e.
No but an honest anaver to the police would have been
/ you ••
" you don't know Wba~. 11 lip to, 1n politie. , - •••
II there an an ••• r?-l .poke . bout what I bad ... n
Y •• , but I .... ,you •••• I jUlt _t to pu.t it to you, I
dOI1't want to .~nd 10 auth talon th1', d1dn' t you try aDd
protect YO\U" lover? --I YIII too acared
And you kn'" that the polici W&tlted lntO""UOD, ,boI.it
Stanley" ••• cc~.d No.1', political IctlT1t11.?---Yben the
pollel told •• that they had UTI.teo:! ha, I bee ... I'llare that
they wanted In!O,.. .. UOD "out ha,
Wlr' the polici cro'l with you?
And did DO on •••• ck yout_Ho.
Tben I co.. baelt to a,. que,tioD, you ...ted to protect
thins', ... that they told you about Stanley and you~.ltt.d
the. beelu" you vere rr1gbtenld. --T ••
Tbey told you be etole lator caret-they did not .peak
_bout aator care
So why did you, they .Ilt about politici and you tell
10
them about cu thett. -- ... 11 the .tory about thl lotor car 20
_tarted lroe "hlrl I bad I.,n thebrl,t e""
Dld the polic, .. nt to know .bO\lt puphlet.?_I Go not
Didn't they .'lltiOIl that Stalll.,y, No. 1 had p .. phl.,t.?-_
No Sir.
Ju,t now yO\l •• id you eouldll't reaeaber, and now you .ey
no.---Io, th, tir.t qu •• tion .... hether the polie. round any
pupblets and your second question .... hether h' had any
PQPblet ••
Yes, it h' had any puphl.,ta, aruS vbo he uled to fO
/ uound •••
- 42 •
ANWIod vitb1_ ••
Dld tb.y a.k you thlt?---No tb.y did not a.k .e that
ADd vbetber b ••• nt peopla Qut of tb. eountry?-HQ, tb,y
dld tlQt aak •• that, I told tb .. that I ha ... , had thl. trOll
.y brQtb,r tbat Statlley .. nd. p'Qpl, to Botawana
Tou beard tbat frOil your brQtber?-Y ..
ADd what dld your brother tell you •• to why h. dld It?-
Why Stanl.y va. doln, It? ~ broth.r va •• aylA1 that Stanl.y
Aeeuaed Mo, 1, crQaaa. thl border talI1A1 people aerQ .. and
that ba,Aeeu.ed No.1, vu.t,d to eOll' down to Ult,nba." to 10
... l.lt ••• I .ald to ay brother I ... n't 1nt,re.ted in 'e,lnc
hU beea\l.le I .. jUat ebollt to ,.t aarrled.
Vait a .o.ent, did yOUt' brotbar al.o t.ll you why Stanley
took people aero .. tha border?---I ", .. n't lntereated dleeua.il1l
thl ••
You Call't ba .. rio\l.l about tbat all''''r, he 1 •• tll1 your
10 ... ar.--- No, be va.n't .J lovar, I vaa hi. 10'1"1' then,
lut I P\lt a mmb.r of q\laationa to you that be W&I your
10 ... ,1' and you w.Dted to p!'oteet ~, nov ..
BY THE COURr:At vba.t .t.,.,--At tbe eta,. of tba poliea 1_ 20
..... tlp.t10n S1r,
00 you .'all March thl. yur vban .he va. II,pprahended?
tbat 1. corraot, II,t tbat .ta" I put lt to her why dld you
a,y tbat, and ,ha .,id ",,11 .b. ",a. fri,ht,ned,
Yl1'Ni8S: Ho, only tbat I pltled hi. 511', faIt plty tor hU,
not that I.".. hi. 10'1"1',
CR9§S-JWqNAfION BT PGl.. S9OO9t: (CON'1'INUED)Vell,
BY t1f£ COUR1':Vlll you .till be '_a t1ai,?--OEFEM:S: Vall,Slr
I .. aorry, I knov tbat I bav, ,one b,yoDd. the ti." I ....
bopiAl fro- point to point to tlnl.b lt ott, I think I can
tinl.b it off
Isy ...
- 43 -
BY THE COURT: Oh very well, if you want tn cootinue , cootinue
- -Nn I think I cao tinish it off r.pidly.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR , SOGGOT: (CONTINUED)I think it is in
hereot in my cross-examinatinn but let ae be very clear with
you , Stanley '01111 .dmit he ll5ed to ' phone ynu , l1li boyfriend
and 8irlfriend. - --Yes
He will categorically deny your descriptinn of the
telephnne call othln' thaD the tact that he told you that he
had heard that T1lIothy ha~ gnoe .cross the bnrder and that it
was alleged that he had gooe tn join the A.N.C . an organieation 10
which the .ccu.&ed never had anythil'l8 to do with. _ _ He did not
aey it was the A,N.C ,
Thia mornins. did anyone apeak to you .bout ynur evidence
befnre you went into the witness box?---spoke to .e, no,
Not .t all?- --Nn,
Vasn't Mr van Logseoberg talking to you with ynur state-
ment in hia haDd?---"
I am sorry nnt Mr. van Loggeobers, wasn ' t a datective
talking to you with the atatement. , abnut your atatement,.with
your atat~ent in his hands?---Not today
Vent in an ntfice this Rnroing, here, ---I was in an ntfice
thls morning.
Whet were you Olng tbere?---just sitting
Just sitting, - -Just .ittinS.
Vaa anybody talkil'l8?---I was talking there talkil'l8 tn Set
la .y brother.
And the policeman wasn't talking tn yOu?----No be wasn't
talking to me
Vho el.e 'II" there in the room apart froID. you two? __ _
Snme Black man there, I don't know who he is
!Ynu., ,
20
30
.. N CXOWA
You don't knO~hO he is •• or his name .---No, I've seen
him tor the first time today,
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
MR BJ.SSt.lJ.N: !to QUESTIONS
RE-EXAMINATION BY THE S,P, : no queation8
CERTIFICATE
I , the undersigned hereby certify that the atoregoing 1s
• true and eorrect transcript ot the evidence ot Nomalungala
Gxowa mechanically recorded 1n the matter ot the Stat. versus
Stanley Radebe and three others Ca •• Kempton Park S H
635/82.
lad' ' j TRkscRIsm : ~ NEETHLING
K6.02 - " SAAK KEMPTON PARK SH635/82
BY HERVATTING OP 22 SEP'I'£M8ER, 1982. VERSKYNINGS SOOS VOORHEEN .
TIlO!>IAS JACK DUBE v.o.e. (Deur Tolk)
ONDERVRAGING DEUR AANKLAER : U ill woonagUg in SO\<Ieto, 111 dlt
korrek? -- Ja, in Dlepkloof .
lloeveel klnden het u1 13 kinden.
NOU een van u klnderS • . iS dit korrek dat een van u kinder.
se n ... am Is Victor Ngwane Dube? -- J ... .
/Ian ek net noem Edelagbare die persoon wle ek na verwys
word genoem in p ... r ... graaf (g) van Bylae I van die kls9"Uat .
Wanneer 1aa" het u u " eun ge" len? -- dit I s nou twee jaar (10)
gelede .
Min of meer ... anneer was hy 1aBste by u huis gewees? -- fly
het nie by die huis geb1y nle, hy het buitekant gewoon, ek het
nie geweet presles waar nle.
Maar us~ u !let hO/ll 2 jBar 1aa" gesien? -- Ja, ele. sl! dlt
is nou 2 j ... ar dat ek hOIf nie Bien nie.
Goed . Weet u waar u "eun nou Is, Victor nou is? --Ek
weet nie waar hy Is nie . Ek weet nik5 nie.
Weet u of u seun Victor, ook by enige ander naaam bekend
gestaan het of weet u dit nle? -- Ek 15 nie bewus van 'n (20)
ander naam nie.
KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR /"NR SOGGO'I': Geen vrae
KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR I'NR BASSLIAN, Geen vrae
GEEN \lERDERE VRAE
SETHLA COLIN MBAYESE v . o.e. (Deur Tolk)
ONDERVRAGING DEUR AANKL.I<ER : 15 dit korrek dat die getuie wat
eente in die saal< vir eie Staat getuig het, sy !let getuig
gister , jou suster is? .- Dlt 111 so.
Is dit ook korrek, dra u kenn!s daarvan , dat sy op ' n
stadium na Johannesburg toe gekom het? -- Ja.
'" I
(30)
~6.0S - 46 -
En waae was U op da.rdt. Itadiu. woona9ti91 -- Toe Iy
in JOhannelbur9 vas?
Di e is korrei<.
in [)ell!mbermaand .
E~ val ook daar gevees waar Iy wal,
Ja, nee , maar ek p rnt nou van voor die . -- Ek Val n09
by di. huh gewees in cudoek .
NOu 9oed .
Oor na bladsy 41 .
T. I • ..
- 47 - S C MBAnSE
Te Cradoclt. Goed, e:l !l01.L \.I .t dan 110\.1 dat •• U het 11 0U ge
praat van Deaembarmaand, vetter jaar pra.t U no\.l van? ---Oeaem-
ber van 1979
Yaar 1a U toe heen1---ak QS 1n Meadovlanda gev .. s
DEUR DIE HOF:Ekakuus , vannear het jy Johannesburg toe gako_1 __
V1r dia aerate kaer, d1t vea 1n 1979, 1n Deae",bBrJlaand toe elt
opgekom het , na Johannesburg.
Hat jy voor ot na hear Johannesburg toe geltom1---ay het
eera Johannesburg toe geltom.
VERHOOR DEUR DIE StA. (HERVAT)Is jy du1de111t oor jou dat~at 10
d1t Oesember 1979 Q a1--- Ek 1s seker daarvan.
Eb het jy toe j01.L BUlter kom beaoalt bier 1n Johannesburg?
dit 1a ao.
Eb vaar het sy op daard1e stadlum gewoon? ___ ay hat by 'n
andar auater van lIy gawoon by S1noane .
En dle auatar ae naaa la vat?-- -Mavla la dia aen wat 1n
Sinoana woont
Goed, ken jy anlge aen van die beakuldigdes !lOU voor die
Hot? __ -Js, deer is van h\.Llle vat elt ken
Nou et vlr die Hot wie van hulle ken jy7---d1e ear ste en 20
d1e tweede beakuldigdea
Kom ons begin no\.l by No . 1, waar het \.I vir No. 1 ont_oet?
---elt het bom leer ken 1n 1979 ter-rl ek besoalt atgelt het by
my auster 1n Sinoana.
Ja , hoe het \.I hom ontmoet?---ek het na my auater toe ge
gean, d1ejena wat gister getuIen1a atgeU het, h1erso, ek het
na hear toe gegean.
O!UR DIE HOF: net jy oak by Mavl. tu1s gegean1---Nee, ek waa
by .y tante gewees Edelegbere, di' woon 1n Meadowland s
Ell het jy net daar gean beaoelt afl.?---By Slnoane jat '0
VERHOOR OEUR DIE S,A . (HERVAT) En het jy •• wear het jy hom /ontmoot ..
- 48 - 5 C MBAYESE
ontmoet •• by jou suster se jy? ____ by my suster se plak.
Nou het
MNR. SOOGET: I didn't hear that .
S.A.: My het sy eueter •• hy het vlr No.1 ontmoet by sy suster
(llt I s (lle getule wat glster getulg het, korrek. ___ GETUIE:Dlt
1& korrek by my eueter year (lle vorlge getUie tulsgegaan het.
MNn. SOGGET, Be.1e de.nk1e .
VERHOOR DEUR DIE S.A. (HERVAT) Hou le dit by Mavls ea hu1e?--
(llt le eo.
Hou hat dear ooit enige geeprekke plaasgevlnd tuaaen jou 10
an No.1 beekuldigde?---dear waa 'n gasprek geweea
Ja, nou ek wil hejy Doet In jou ele woorde nou vlr dle
Hot vertel ... at 18 bespreek tus8IIn julle?- --baekuldlgde 1 het
twae papiare voort gebrlng , di~ wes papiere wet betrekking
gehad het op Saeo
DEUR DIE MOF: Vat bedoel 1,1 set die woord Saeo? ---Saeo Is 'n
orgenisesie
Gaen lIIaar voort",
S.A.:D1t sal uitkoll Edalq:bare hopel1k.
VERHOOR DEijR pIE S.A. (HERVAT) Goed, ek wil nou Qet eeratena 20
he •• jy ae No. 1 het aan jou twee dokumente getoon, nat vir
jou gegae?---Ja. hy het dit tavoorakyn gebring
En jy ae dlt 18 Saco (Selko ?) - dit 180 .0
J., ken jy vir die hot beakryt hoe het h.1ardie dokumenta
galyk?---dle ene ie groene en op daardle .teen geakrywe
"Saeo. DIet .... art lettera "aeook die lendkaart van Atrika,
Atrika •• d!e hele Atrlka ataan daarop geskets.
D£!.IR DIE HOF: Vu dlt net 'n ,mke! val pap1er?- - -hierdia 1a
eintlik ' 0 pamtlat
Meer as een vel?--- d!t Is 'n paar .. ao ' n paar bladeya }O
aanmekaar gebind . /VERHOOR ....
- 49 - S C MBAYES£
VEBHOOR OEUR pIe S. A. : Ja,.--6it 1a a1ntllk 'n bo,ki' . 01,
t weldl 11 'n b1,tJ11 srot.r II di. In ... t ek net b'akryt bet.
OOk 'n boekll •• d1t la .00rt,llyk aan 611 eerate ene.
Soort,elyk bedoel Jy hy h,t ook op ,e.kryt de t d1t Saeo
1.1- - - d1t 1a ao
En w.t 1s sy kl.ur di' ander Iln1---61e klaur 11 d11.,ltd.
Groen .--1. ook groan.
Nou het , . kan Jy .an dil Hot at .. tse dokumente WI. dit
liveea?--- dit het batrlkklng op die organi ••• le
J. , kan Jy ontbou .. t • • ln .. ttlr op.lg dlt betr,kkio, hit 10
op dl. or,anlaaeie1- - - Hy b.t . ni. v'el geat 01., blhalwi d.t
by vlr .y dl1 boaklaa gawya h.t, In vir .y OOE gel. h.t dat
by ' n lid 1a van d.ardl. organl,.ei.
Ja , ,oed •• ar kan Jy vlr die hot vandag at watae dokuman-
t. dit la1 ___ ek het dit nl. ,elee. nl.
Ja , go.d , en Jy at No.1 het vlr jou geat dat hy 'n lid
van dl. organisasle la?-- -J.
Ooed, ek , •• n nou a.n Jou tooo tve. dokuaente , nou Edel-
.,bar •• k ao.t •• rat.na v.rdu~llk dlt i. bloot totoatat.
van a.kere boekiea, d1. r.d. bolko. di. Staat nie 611 oor- 20
epronkl1ke. bier het nl •• la o.d.t dit in ' n .Dder ••• k bt
tr.kking • • ingehandi, ie, In det dit op dmoo.blik by di.
Grittier van die Hooggeresebot 11 •• hangende .ppll In 'n In-
dar ••• k. Nou indlen dit nodi, 1. dan kan ons deardl' Ituk-
k' , oorlpronkllke stukke kan toon dan ken ons dlt nagaan an
ken .y gal.erderrlandedlt n.,e.n ot dlt identiae .an bl.r-
dia toto.teta i. , and.reinl .a hulla dit a6 aanva.r •• we.t
.k nia , ek weat nle . . .. t hull a houding lal weaa nle , .k hat
vanda, blar elega ' n toto.teat van di. b.trokke • • totoeteta
van d1. b.trokke bewysstukke.
OEUR OlE HOf:Adv. Soggot, het u be .... r teen blerdie wyse
Iv.n ••••
,0
- so - S C )(SAmE
ven ,etui.ni.eanbl.dinc?---Dit 1. ,1ntlik •• • k •• 1 •• n dl. hand
elo,n onw.n.alilt •••• r .It w •• t ,1ntllk In dl. pnkU ..... pr.cUcal
.1tu.tion •• w.t e1ntl1k .y ¥T1enel •• ,el"rel, ¥Tl,nel k.n elo.n ni •
• ond.r oa hi.reli •• an,al •• nth,le1 op 'n anel.r eI.t .... t, rail
Ia u taVT.eI, d.era .. eI.t elit St •• t nou Yoort"an •• t toto
.t.te an d,t dia oor'pronkllke ••• tt.rtyd .an u b,.klkb •• r ,.
st.l word 1--Ek ellnk EcI.l. op eli •• t.eli~ .k m.sk , •• n ba,w.ar
nie.
e •• n b .... er ni •• Aelv. aeaall.n1---Edel.,b.r, ••• , .k nat
ieta vir Be.lruldigel .. , .n 4 VTII,
S,karllk.---Op hi.relit .. t.dl ..... k h.t ,e.n b •• _.r ni ...
S.A . :K.n .11 dit nat eluiel.l1k stel, .k c •• n nie n. eli. inhouel
van elie dokuaant. v.rwy. nia . op dl, .tediUIII. die ,nui, hat
r.eel. ,.tul, eI.t by dit ir.d.rda.d .,1t nl' g,l.,. bet ni ••
Die idouel g.an .k ni • •• ••• r dit •• 1 1.t'r uit eli' •• rd van dl,
••• k ••• 1 dl, inhoud m •• r tar .pr.k, kos. Ek . i1 dit net
b100t aan hoe oorhendic o. t. vr, ot by dit ken le1,ntitis.ar.
VERH99R DEijR OlE S,A, (KERVAT) •• --- Ed,l.gber • • ek .i.n di.
tw •• b,wy,.tukk • • di' bo.ki ...... t ak , •• 1.n hat ..... eoort,e
lyk •• a.n ell. b,wy .. tukka,
OEUR DIE HOF: K.n ,k dit •• t slen •••• b1i.t.
~ !d.1.,b.r •• " elo.n .en dia nand u .al aerk dit 1. to
toat.t. van t ••• boaki". elia e.n is 'n konstituaie, •• 1
be.t t. w ••• •• blyk t. w ••• di. kon.tituai. v.n S.co • • k
do.n .an dl. hand d.t elit BEVYSSTUK "A" •• 1 w.e •••• t u v.r1ot,
an dl, .nd.r dokuaent •• BEVYSSTUK "S" ,,,.rk .e1 word.
OEUR DIE HOF : Oi ••• r.te bled van SEVJSSTUK "A" bestean uit 'n
.lrk.1 .at dubb.llyn., d.erin .taan die woord. ·South Atrlcan
Youth RevolutIonary Council" .n dan ond.r dit .an dIe onder-
10
20
kant v.n di. eirke1 In groter lett.r. dl • ...oord 5-A-Y-R-C-O ,0 in boon,tt.rs , In die .Hdd van di •• 1rkel i. d.,r 'n
Ik.art ..
- S> S C !":B,W:S!!:
k •• rt VaD Atrika , 411. 11 1n ....... t llisekleur •• dle groottte
deel d.,rvan , die onderate ,ad .. lt ....... d1e ReJNbl1tk van
S1.11d-Atrlka gel .. h. h w1t . Boltalit hler4ie 'irltel at.an
d1, woord ·Conatltutlon" onderkent 41e alrk,1 .t •• n "adopted
by the Firat NatIonal COllgr •••• • 8iVYSSTVK "S" op dl1 ..... 1..
bled het 'II e.bl ... '00I't,.1yk •• n d14 lip dIe .... ate bled
van B£Y'tSST'1JK "A" , bo-aan dif .. bl ...... tlr. dlt eo •• , no .. ,
etaen 031, woorde "sayreo speeial edition ot the U"at National
COligre" held In April 1979" ,
OEUR DIE OOF: (.,n ,etule) U at die 11 loortgdyk .. n 414 •• 1. 10
.an u 'ttoon 1, b.~lve 4at d1, kl~ d.,rvan v .... k111 ___ 41t
1e korr.1t
Ole vat JJ •• ,1eo het, ... erOtO tar..,.1 h1.r~ va nou
iDS,hand1, la, lip 'n w1t a.rtergrond 1I.-- d1t 11 .0
VERHOOR pEUR pIt S,A. (HERVAT)Hou u a' 1n u ,etuienla 4at Ho .
1 bet hierdi. twe. ,tukke .. n u g.tOOD d1t 1 •• 0
V.ar w •• d1t g.w ••• ,--- d1t wt. 1n .y .u.t.r •• bul.
DilJR DIE !IOF: No_ baar .. ar by Mar Ill ...... bltt! wtnn •• r
jy pr •• t, 1. d1t 1n d1e bu1.?---lD d1. bUi. j.
VEBHOOR oEVR DIE S, A, (HERVAT) En toe, by tOOD DOU .anu d1. 20 go.d, wat geb.ur to.?--- hy b.t .y , ••• d.t hy 'n lid 1. v.n
dl. organl ••• l. en d.t hulle dle .enae 1. w.t vir kind.r.
paatlette g •• lD Soweto.
V.tae Idndlr.'I'--.koolk1ndlr •••• koltere
J., ___ My het .y ook ..... d •• l d.t •• 'n per.oon oor
d11 grene. ven d1. land v11 , •• n, dan kao bulle 'n pa.poort
bl.klkb.ar meak vir dil dOll.
Ka. b\llll •• w1t .. 'hulle' nou'l'---My bIt ver",,' n. 'n per-
eooD -, blll.l\&.tel ,. die orgenl ••• ll •• vat ....11 .an.1ul t.
J. , "M .aar aan. ___ My hat " •• d1e .eD" vat dear
~, d1e grena ,a'D, di' m,ak bun. .01date /J ••••
'"
- ~2 - 5 C HBAT£SE
Ja, ---Hy hat vlr .y ,ea' dat ak na drle dae van daardle
datu. aoat tarug ko. S1noana toe, aodat by 'Y kan laa. wat In
daardle dokuae.llte ataan, aodat hy aen ay Iten leu wat In daaT
dle dokuaente atean.
Varwy. U .1101.1 n. SEVYSStuIKE "A" an "S"?---Ja, aaook andar
dolru:llenta wat hy .lila V1T ay ,ewy. hat nie
Ja, loed. wat ,ebeur toe veTOeT1 ___ ek le toe teTU, KeeOow-
land. toe. Ma' daa bet elt terussa,.en De beakuldlSde 1 toe
.. ar ak toe V1T bGaI aet ene Mtutu:tel1 ,evlnd hat.
DEUR DIE HOF :Waar vlnd jy No. l?---ak hat V1T hom by ay ouar. 10
aa hul. ,avlnO.
SaulIIlit wla WI' hy?---Saaa .et e.lle Mtutuul1.
YERHOOR OEVR DIE S,A. (HEP.VAT) Slen jy Yanda, V1T "tutu~el1 1.11
dla &1?---.1a.
Wle 1, dlt?---dlt 11 a.ekuld1sde Mo. 2 In dla .aak.
En wat ,abeur toe da'r by d"rdle gelaentheld?---beakuld1,
da No.2 hat ook V1T ay ,el' dat hy ook '.II 11d 1a v.n d1a
or,enla.ala, Hulla het a1 toe ,eaa ak aoat weer terul koa,
Hulla bet no, nle ,elaantba1d ,ahad om '.II ver,aderlna ta bou
lila. &1l1e het nle dle kalla oa vlr ay 1.11 te 11, ven dle doku- 20
aente n1e.
Goed, jy het ,a.a nou 1.11 jou ,etuin1e dat No. 2 ,a vlr
jou by la 0011. '.II l1d v.n dle or,an1.a.le, .. ttar orsenla.ale
praat u van? ___ My het ,epr .. t van dla organl ... 1a Sa)'TCO
En wet ,ebeur toe verdeT?---ek het beakuldl,de 1 en 2
.lila lIeer ,aan .1an .lila , ell ek 1. toa later teTU, Cradock toa.
Goed , an da.rln Cr.d~k wat ,abeur toe?--- Ek wa. toe op
Ikool ,eweee daarao, e.ll by dle elnde van dle ja.r 1961 bet
ek weer teM.lueko. Johannuburctoa .
Ja, ,oad, kOIl d.t Onl net weeT taruggaan , bet jy ooit ,0
ult jou eta ult •• het jy ooit 11d •• word van Sa)'Tco? Jyaalf?
/---
- 53 - S C MBAYESE
---Nee
Het iemand jou ooit ,evra om lid te word van die organl-
aaaie1---Ja
Vie ... aa dlt?-__ Stanl.y
Ja, ---No.1 beakuldide
En by .... tter geleenthe1d .... a dlt ge ... eea1---na my tweede ••
toe ek ... eer teruggekom het Jonanneaburgtoe.
Goed, 18 dit nol,l in 19611---1n 1981
COed, vertel vlr die bot hoe dit gebel,lr het1---ek het vir
gevind, hy .... a alleen gewee •• Hy het gea' ana .oet b.akuldig-
de No.2 gaan .oek by .y O1,1era ae hl,l1a. One het na beakuldig
de 2 ee bul. toe gegaan, Daar hy a s nia tuie nie. Beakuldig
de 1 het vir ay gea' op d •• rdle d.tua, die d.g ... a.rop ek vir
hom ontmoet het, het hy net van Le.otho gekom. Beakuldlgde 1
het ay gea. om terug t. g •• n M.ado ... land. to., want by gaan
loop, by g.an K •• p.t.dtoe .,ook na Ultenhage oa d •• r aenae te
g.an •• om by die organt ••• le Sayrco aan te .luit.
Goed, .k wl1 twee punte DO\l opkl.ar, in dl' verband ,
.eratena .... nne.r ln 1961 va. dlt ge ... e.s1---dlt .... a ln die a.and 20
D •• _ber van 1981.
Dan dl. g8tuienla ... a~ jy 001,1 1e .... r in v'rband a.t die
tel t dat No. 1 .an .101,1 aou gea' het d.t hy na menae g.an in
Ka.pat.d en Uitenhage toe, --dit ia ao
w.t aou lIy da.r gaan ma.k hat at jy1---ge •• hy gaan man
se daar a' 011. by Sayrco organ18asie aan te alult en dat bulle
lIoet die A.N.C. loa.
Nou IIlerdle IIt1lkkie .. etul.Dla ... at •• van dia aeDae wat hy
in dt. Kaap .01,1 gaan al.n het, Uitenhage,h.t Jy nle in .101,1 Ter-
klering .an die poU.le gemeld nie ..... r nle?---dit l a ao Ja. }O
Maar .1y h.t dlt 'ltd vanoggend ,emeld toe ona met .101,1 /gekonaulteer ••
- $4 -
sekonsu.lteer het. - - -ek het je .
S C MBAYESf.
Kan jy aan di. Hot ver~uidelik w.ar~ dit nie in jo~er-
klaring opgene~ la nie?---ek hat hierv.n vergeet .
Nau goed jy at jy het aelt noolt enlge organ158$ie •• ooit
'n lid geword van ' n organi"aie nie?---ek het nool t eensewor'
nie.
Het jy selt oolt probeer oa cen.e te wert vlr die orS8nia.
.ie?---beskul~igde 1 het ~y geYra o~ dit te doen ,
Vertel vir die Hot daarvan . ---hy het ges! ek ~oet ~ense
soek o~ by die orgenise,ie aan te slult Seyrco.
Het jy ooit dlt gedoen?---Ja, ek het twee genader, twee
jons Swartmans, ~aar hu11e het geweler om aan te elult,
Ret jy seen suksesbehaal nie?---ek het geen suksee behaal
nie . En waar w .. dit gewees?--- Dlt was daar in Cradock
Coed , dankie Edelagbare , geenverdera Yrae
KRUISV£RHOCR pE1JR ADV . SOOOOT: Your Worahip I just want to
point aut that a num~er ot aaterial alles,tlons which relates
to thia witness , do n~t appear .t all In the Partieular.
or the Indictaent . I .hould like to erosa- exam!ne aa tar a. I 20
ean now, and then ask Your Worshlp tor an opportunity to take
further instructiona .
BY 1M! COURT: As I hava aaid that I will adjourn at any ti~e
when you went to conault with your Client •• --Yea, no I appre
eiate that Your Worship. I ~ anxious to avoid unnes.ery
postpOne~ents • • that is notwithstanding thi. rather un.atiarac
tory state or attairs Slr , I do want to go on .
BY THE COURT: Move the ~icrophone so th3t it is ~ore in tront
or you please.
C!lOS5-EXAMI!IATlOl! 1\1 I':!I.. SO:zGOT:Hol< ol~ are you"- - - 18 . IAn~ .. .
S C M!\AYESF
And whert did you go to school ?---In Cradock, th .. MID" ot
tht achool i& Senthali ., ~e~on~ary Icbool
How your sister who ,oVt evidfnc .. h"re, 1 don't thInk h .. r
na~ .. has been us#rl yet , J ~ould lIke to establish that,.is that
her na~e?---that is her na~e
.... hl!lre did she go to a~hool?---1t is a ~eh:)olmOIlr ae
Wh1ttlnea I don ' t know w~ether it h lecondary o~ hIgh achool
In .... .,at to..m?---Its 1n the Ciskel
Hal ahe ever been int;rest"d in polittcal act1vi'ty?---tlo
An" you?---!;ot.
So you've lett politi:.l activitiea to th~ oth .. r studenta.
you ' ve never taken part in It"---this 15 correct .
And 1n tact you h!lve had noth1ng . • no intereat in It. -
this 11 ao .
What were your 1nterasta? __ 1 _a interested 1n school
affairs . • what I waa there to do.
~hat ere you dotng at the ~o~ent?---l .. not doIng eny
th.lng, I UI not at school
Are you 100k1ng tor, Job or ere you going back to achool?
i(
I Just wsnt to know the sltuetlon. ---! will go back to school 20
And where are you living now?---You mean presently?
Yel.---1n Cradock
Yea, do you know that your Itater this year WII put 1n
e call et liumall3dorp? ---No.
And then Interrogated.---l am not eware ot that
Haven't you seen your Slater thll year?---you mean betorr
our arreat?
My questIon 1a very clear , have you seen her thIs year7--
1 have aeen her this year
Frequently?---Not frequently .
"'hen did you lalt let her?---I laat allw her 1n Ui tenhage
/betore • • ,
}O
- S6 -
before our arreata
When wer~ you Irreatell?---ln Kerch
Where?---ln Cradock
s C MBAYESE
Tell Hi_ Worship briefly the circumat.nces ot your arreat?
---It w.a on • S.turll.y Your ~orahip quite early in the morning
I woulll e.tilD.te it about 5.
wno came'I---they callie .• "lIlte pollcemen and alao Blaclla
it I am not mist.llen there were tour Bllcks . and two White.
Ye., ju.t tell us the .tory, wh.t happenell? --_there w._
a knock on the lloor, the lloor w •• openell, they came 11', they 10
_poke to my .other , aaylng that they were lntere_ted in S,thl.
Mb.y.... My mother told them I waa in the bedroom . They came
into the bedro~, I was to:d by thelll that the Ultenhage pollee
were intereated in lIIe,
Did they a.y why?-__ No, I wa_ not told
Did yOU ask?---1 dl11 not eak
You have no ides why ~hey wanted you?
----altogether not.
On your evidence.
It muat have been terribly ahoelled.---Yea I waa
And very.trightened . ---l wa •• hock,d but I waan ' t acarell . 20
And did they arreat you?---Ye. I waa taken into • ear
and they drove .way with lie. I waa taken to the S,nlam build
ing.
In Cradoek?---Yea. At about 10 o'clock the White police_
lIan came there and eallell D' it I know Stanley Radebe, I a.ill
yea I know hilll ,
Now at that point, dij you realize, at that point or hf
tore, did you reelize that you werl being dee.inell by the 'e
curtty police?---You IDeaI' thl pollce who had IDe? I wa. ,wly
at thia tilile
~ere you trightlned? ___ No Sir
IYou . ,
'0
• S7 • S C I".BAYESE
You have nothin, to t alr . --- there waa no reason tor me to
Because you heve done nothing . __ _ Yea, that i s cor rect
You ar e innocent . ___ ••
InJOur 0_ mind .---Yes . thh i •• 0
Is that an hone.t answ!r?-- -it 1a Sir
VeI l 1t your other avi denca 1. true. that answer can't be
true . ---No
You ' ve tor gotten your eVidence already have you? YOU at~emp
tad to r ecrui t t wo people . - - -two people?
That 1. your avidence , don ' t a.k ae. ---l only tried to but
w1thout succeaa.
The ect that you knew waa cTiminal . ---thia gatting paople?
I 801 aaking you about that only .---l did not lnow tMt it
w •• -rong • • t o do .0 .
I . ee , wh.t were you •• when you w.nt to that t wo people.
and t r ied to r ecruit theq , what did you tell t hem thay ahould
be recTU1 t ed t or?-_
BY THE COURT: I notice that the witneas i. talking rather .ott
can t he accuaed haar hi.? ___ Not exactly I under.t.nd .
Speak up ple .. e . __ 1 have done that • • asked him to do ao
WlTNtSS : 1 under.tand . I aaked the. , .pproached the., aakad
the. whether they ara not inter~ed in J01n1ng Sayrco , and
they .aid no.
CROS5-EXAMI1IATION BY AOV ! SOOCOT: (CONTINVEO)Oi d you tell th8111
what Sayrco waa?- - - No 1 di~ not
lrIhat did you th1nk Sayrco wa.?--- It was an org.nh.t1on .
Well what did it dO?--- •.
Did it or,anize aport Or what?---that it wa. e political
organization .
h there anything wrol18 in baing a poli tical orgsnJ ution / .....
10
20
- 58 - S C MBAYESE
as far as you are concerned?---No
So you considered it all legal? --No
So what was illegal then?---because it is not supposed to
exist, this organization.
And you were trying to then recruit people for an illegal
Or gani za t1 on ?---Y es
And you have the audacity to suggest to His Worship thst
you didn't think you were doing anything wrong?---l did not
know.
Did No.one tell you that it wss sn illegal organlzation?--- 10
He did not say so Sir
So he just told you you must join Ssyrco without telling
you what it was about?--- Yes
And that 10 011 you ev~r leornt from him obout Sayroo?--
what I have told the Court up to this far that he is a member
of Sayrco, Sayrco is the or&anization that diatributes pam
phlets 1n Sowrto to school children •• that if one 18 intereeted
in going abroad, a passport could be made available by them
Is that all now? ___ Yes, and furthermore that they would
also go to the Cape to tell people to .):tin the organization. 20
And come out and leave the A. N. C.
And be what, go out and be whst?---No I am sorry if I
did not put it clearly, that they would go dOwn to the Cape
to tell people in the Cape to join the organization Sayrco snd
leave the A. N. C. as an or£anization .
And is that all then that he told you about the organi1a_
tion?---Yes
Why did you tell us just now that you only thought it wss
Jr\volved in polities only?--- becsuse what he was telUng me was
1n fact politics .
Yes. Can I just get this quite clearly from you and that
/is ...
30
- 59 - S C MBAY&SE
is that vhat the or,anization ~s .bout v.s pOlitics .nd they
~nted people to leliove the A N C .nd Jot'; them? ___ Yea
And that 1s dU--- ancl thereafter one vould be aent to
pIsces like Lesotho where he would beeome a eoldier .
Yes , nowyou yourself . • c.n I just ssk you •• to become a sol
dier vith whf,t, to eOllle baek and tight South African GoverMent?
--- ... Or to join the United Nad.Ols? Wh.t!.t vas it about?---
BY THE COURT: I notice that the vitness is still talkin, very
softly. can the accused hear him? PI"se Mr . Interpreter please 10
enquire f rom the accused ~hether they can hear the witnes • • -
alto,ether not , sll the accused say '0. I v1l1 ask the .,itneu again pleue speak uP. the .ccuaed
haa an i nterest in his eVidence and they •• they ahould hear
what he has to aey . - - I ur,derstand .
Is the witn," .peaking the s.me l.nguage aa the accu.ed?
__ It is Your . or.hip
I .a .orry Hr . Soggot , it i. in the intereat of the ac
eused .--Your .... or.hip vith re.pect that i. abaolutely so.
CRQSS-P:AMINAl'lOrl ax HR , SQGGOT , (COJ.'TlNUED)Alld hes he cot .y 20
lsat QUeation?- -not very dear ly
The question is be .ol dlers to fisht wher e?--- to eome
and fisht the Boers In South Africa .
Who told you that?---St .nley
tlow you ~'ouraelf vou:dn ' t be prepared to do enythina
dangerous? Any thin, illegal 1. that right?---No I vun ' t pra
pered to .
And y« you try to recruit people for an or ganlzatJon
vhich 1. or,snlzing a fight as you put it "again.t the Boera"
---"tes
.'by i. it that about four minute. ago .,hen IlIIked you
Ito . ••
"
- 60 - S C I'IBAYESE
to tell us sll that you kn~w about Sayrco , you aaid all you
kn~w waa that it ",as about pol1tics . --- • •
And I asked you i6 politics illegal and you said no, but
then you added "the organizstion is illegal"---. ,
Had you forgotten your evidence about the aoldiera? ---;oou
~ean Stanley?
'oIhenyou gave tluit eVidence , that's all you knew about Sayrco
waa it waa pol1 tical .. and that pol1 tica ",aan' t illegal , had you
forgotten;,our evidence? That it recruited soldiera? ---No, I
have not forgotten
Then why dId you say ~t that the only thing that you kne'"
that ",as ill-gal "'aa that it was banned?---i! you ",111 repeat
the question ,
'oIhy did you t e ll His Yorship that ",hat you understood about
tit! organizstion was that-.that the only thing 111egal ",as that
it was bsnned, but that politics per se was not illegal. --
Yes, I said so.
You couldn't have said so in your eVidence that it re
cruited for soldiers,is true. You've got to. ,it is one or
the other which 1s honest ev1dence . ---why?
Well if you dcn't understand why , I can't explain it to
you , I can ' t explain to you your contradictions. When you
gave your stutement to the police , did they ask you to tell
the~ everything?- --Yes
Now what is clear even to your mind was when you tried
to recruit these people fo~ Sayrco, they were going to go and
become soldier6 . ---Ye6 , I knew
And whenyou did that you think you were doing wrong? ___ _
You mean when 1 was doing it?
10
20
That ... as my question. Plesse don't evade by repeating the 30
questions. ---when I tried to recruIt theae boys , to jOi"
/Sayrco •••
- H - 5 C MBAYESE
Sayrco, in order to rece.n sold1ers I knew it was wrong.
A very, very "'r10us ;r1.11e . ---l d1d not know Sir
You did not knov tholt to recruit aoldiers to nght the
govern:::-ent vss • ser10us crime?---No, I V8sn ' t recruit1ng them
You were , you vere inviting them , ---Yas, wholt 1 was merely
aak1ng them vas vhether they are interested 1n jointng.
And your purpose vas to recru1t the~ .---How now S1r?
So you didn ' t ~ to invite them to jotn Sayrco?---well it
depended on them whether they were intereated
No , 1 am aak1ng you, d1d you want them •• d1d you want them 10
to join Sayrco? ___ No, I did not want thea to join Seyrco.
Well, ao vhy d1d ~u uic thell it they_nt to join it you
didn't wsnt the~ to?---becsuse tha person who hold sent me to
do so, hold said I ahould get people on hia behaU' .
So you vere doing it agslnat your v111?--- ••
You didn 't ..,t to do it but he asked you to do it.-__ Yes
He torced youto do it.-__ lIo he did not Sir
Well why did you do it?---1 va' trying to pleaa. him .
You are prepared to incite p.ople and invite people to be-
come aoldiers tholt ia to ~lesae a peraon who •• to whom you owe 20
nothing . --_ Yea
Eventhough it meant that in he end they could DeCOale sol-
diers and soldiers k1111 ___ Yes 1 know it
You knev that soldlers klll?---Yes 1 know
Yet you .. ere preparec to invi te them?---Yes
But why did you do it if you didn ' t want to do It?---Aa
I em aaylng I vae trying to please the pereon who hsd eent me
Vby vere you trying to plense him? ___ because h~ had eeked
.lie to .
It anybody aelr. you to oOlllll.i t a crille 11ke neal a lotor- 30
ear , v111 you do that to pleue hll11?---No .
IBut •••
- 62 - 5 C MBAYESE
But you are prepared to Invite people to com:it treason
or terrorlsm?--- ••
Not motorcar theft but treaaon or terrori8lll l~--Yes
Thank you .
BY THE COURT: If you can jullt expla1n this answer , why were you
,.why ",ould you commit treeson but not stesl a motor car? --- ,.
And please spesk up so that the eccused can hear you. --
I "'as pleaalng the per son who had sent lie ,
Io'hy did you ",ant to please him?---because he had ask8'd ••
"'hy do you do ",hat he_ked you?--- I did "'hat he had uked 10
lie to do because he had asked .e to do it.
But ",hy, what was your motlvation, why do you do it?--
No r.eeon ,
CROSS- EXAI-H tII'ION BY MR. SCGGOI: {CONTINlJEO}I want to sugsellt
that there is another truth. snd that is that the whole story
of Y01,l' being uked to recruit and of your recruiting, ls s
!ictlon.---No this 1s not aIle
I want to sugsest that ls the reason why you are giving
the •• ebaurd enswers .---w~~t .ra the reaaons?
I won't answer your C;uestlons, when •• you dJdn ' t wsnt to 20
recruit these people , because you raaliud that terroria. WIIa
Involved and that ls aerlou&l . --- Yea
Yas , and dld you kno", what happena to people ",ho are found
guilty ot terrorlsm?~--Yel
'io'ha t ?---they •• what I know ls tbtlt they are lentenced
th"l.Igh 1 don't know the sentence .
For long terms of Il1pr1aonaent . ---Yes
When t;,. poUce caoa and intarro&at ed you , you reallx.d
that you r1ak a long tar- or i.prisonaent?---what now?
tlon ' t you understand the intarpreter ? ___ I! only tt.a ques- }O
could ba repeated . /You •• •
- 63 - S C MBAYt5E
You keep on askihg the interpreter to repeat queations
which are very elear .---Juat plead Sir that the question be re
peated.
You knew that people conviet~d of terrorism get long gaol
sentences . ---l did not know
But you 've just told ~a the opposite s minute ago.---whieh
thing no" .. ?
You told us thst you do know they go to gaol for long terms
of Imprisonment . ___ No what you •• l know that Sir . but what 1 am
trying to ssy is that I wsa not senttlnced though 1 spent this 10
time In the cena.
That ia not the questIon, you knaw that you risk because
of your aetlons the possibility of a long term of Imprisonment .
tor terroris~ . ---As a result of the questiona that you are aak
ing me?
No you must please listen to the interp~eter and try and
answer in a proper manner . ___ No , I did not realize that I could
be sentenced
But you told uS that 101,1 knew tarrorism was serious •• but
yet you made the attempt to racruit because No . 1 asked you to . 20
---Yes
You remember that evidence?---Yes I do Sir
YOU realized what ris~ you .... ere taking?---YOu CleBn a!ter my
apprehensIon?
No , I am talking sbout your sttempt to recruit these people.
---Not at that time Sir
but I said you knew that terroria~ wss serious , you kn~w
the risk involved tor you .---1I0 I did not know
Are you then telling '~s that you thought that your attempt
to recruit theewas an inn~eent actlon?--- as far as I thought 30
yes . /Involving •••
- 6~ - S C MBAYU;E
Involving no crl~e .---Ye6
You 've forgotten your evidence that you thought that the
organization .... as illegal.--Yes I said so .
And you've also forgotten your evidence that you knew you
.... ere dOing wrong when you atte~pted to recruit. ---did I say
that today?
Yes, you said that ,---Ilow today?
You said tha.t .--_l:f " what did I ssy , , c a n the question be
repeated plesse.
My learned friend would not let me put the question nor 10
would Mia Worahip if it was wrong.--- ••
Have you tor;;:otten lQur evidence that you &aid tod <l Y that
you knew that you were doing wrong .... hen you invited ...... hen you
attemptad to recruit people . ---No I had not torgotten that
Was that evidence true?- - - Yes
Then .... hy did you say halt a minute ago, that you thought
you ... ere innocent . You can't aay contradictory thinga and
get a ... ay with it . - - - No , I did not kno .... at the time that he
asked me to recruit people , that it waa wrong. I only came to
kno .... 01' this 8t ter my apprehension 20
Well that is another verSion, --No it is still the same
•• the first ••
I eJ:I afrai d that the evidence is clear , and i t 18 before
His Worship . I .... ant you .. 1 want to come to another pOint ,
the accused No . I you 88y • ,let me say immadiately Accused No .
1 denies sny attempt to recruit people, or use you as a r ecruit
i ng agent, the question was that to turn to your eVidence the
Question whiCh I .... ant to put to you is .... ho attempted to recruit
you? ___ Stanley , Accused No . 1
~~en ... as the attempt made , when you came back from Cradock? '0 ---Yes .
IBY •• •
- 65 - S C MBAYESE
BY THE COURT: W88 t.hat. no" t.he !trat. time or t.he second 'tillle? __ _
On both these oC~Jsions .
CROSS-EXA/'I INATJON BY ADV . SOCGOT:(CON'I'INUEtI)I see , and "hen "as
t.he aecond 'time t.hat. you CMe back from Crlldock?---Oece",ber of
1981
And " hat day in December do you relllember?---
BY THE COURT: Is that no" the day on "hich he arrived here?
What day are you referring to?- --DEFENCE:That is correct S1r ,
I'll clesr that up .
CROSS- EXAMINATION BY ADV . SOGGOT: (CONTINUED) •• - -1 don't remem- 10
bel" the date
First. of all, "hen d1d he come back here? Can you remember
1:[ it'llllS t.he !trat 01" second "eek in Oecember?--- ••
Or "hatever.---the first week of December .
That you are clear on . ---I am clear about it
And how long acter that did Accused No . 1 invite you to be
a recruit?---the !trst "eek went past, 1 went to him the week
thereafter.
BY THE COURT : I beg your pardon , I don ' t understand that .--_the
!trat "eek went by , and it "as durIng the second week of my 20
being here Your WorShip, n.at I "ent to him.
Will that. DO" be the thIrd "eek of December?--- t.hh is cor-
rect Your Worship.
CROSS - EXAMIrlATION BY ADV ! SOGGOT: (COIITIIIUEO)Where was your
sister t het 'time?--- ••
BY THE COURT : Is t.hat now tte sister Msvis or the siater Noma
lungels?--- Yes, Nomalungels thank you SIr .
WITNESS : She W88 there ther. at Uit.enhage .
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY AOV. SQGCOT : (CONTINlJEtI)And the accused
attempt.ed to recruit you , tell His Worship where and th( clr_ 30
cUQstances?--- at his home
Yes?---I came there and he said ' now then thet you have larrived • •
- " 5 C MBAYESE
arrived, let 1,18 go and look tor Ntutuzene, thl& is Accused No.
2.
Yea,and then?---he then aald there would alao be others
those who would te organlzir.g a meeting,
Did you go to Mtutuzer.e1 No . 2 . ?---Yea , we both vent
there
But was he not at home?---that 115 correct , he was not at
hol'1l'!
'olea it only on one occasion that Mtutuzene • • that you went
to Mtutuzene under thoae circUGstances or t'ol01---,.
"''hen you went there sr.d you •• he 'W8sn't at home?--- juat
the one occ&sion Sir
Because in your evlder.ce you situated that during your
previous stay in Johanne8b~g. --No . I did not put 1t at that
stage
Well, I jllst want to pu.t II problem to you, you are very
clear that No . 1 invited you to become 8 member 1n December
19811---1 am very clear al~o on the first occssicn that I had
coce t o Johannesburg
10
The problec with that is , that Accused No . 1 ....... s in gaol. 20
the Court records sre there . He ... as arrested tor motorcsr
theft • • attempted motor car theft 1n ~ovecber , l96l , and he was
lnprisoned for months thereafter . The story 1s very Simple
froc November, 1981 , until today, thc accuaed has been a
prisoner •• or detainee . --- J found him there , I found him at
his home .
So you stick to your story that 1n Dececber , Del, he at-
tempted to recruit youC ___ Yes
You are as clear about that eVidence as you are about your
other eVidence . ---Yes .
Right , I think 1 should like to take you to a different
/subject ••
- 67 - S C MBAYESE
.ubject, you cue up •• you've told us to Johannesburt: 1n DeceCl
ber 1979 , ---Yet
Yhere?--- ••
BY THE COURT, Pleate I ,gain Ilk the .. itneG15 plet" .p.ak up.
Where I em aitting I can buely h.ar you . ---she .. n stay ins
at my aiater Mavia ' s place
CROSS- EXAMINATIOll BY AtN. SOGGOIl (CONTltNEtI)Waan ' t there trouble
at Mavia' .II place et once ltese?---l1ke .. hat?
J. boytriend been ahot.---l don ' t kno ...
And yet you'v.:- never beard of anyone be1ng ahot? At ~ .. vla'a
hou.e?---a1toge~er r.ot
How you were there trom December , 1979 until .. hen? In Jo
hanneaburg?-- -Untll January of the tollowlng year , just before
the reopenlng of schools
Yes , did you go and viait your two aiaters trequent1y?---
1 went there on occaslona.
My question 15 trequent1)'?--- ••
On .,ny o<:casiona?---:Iot on .In), occealons, on three OCCI-
dona I think that I _nt .
And did you ever go to accuted No . l's hou"a'?---Yea
To visit your sister?---My aiater no she .. aan ' t tt his
plici .
Did ),our aiater at no stage stlY ..,lth No . 11---
BY THE COURT : la that now the aiat.r •• --DEFENCE:I am talking
about Nomall.ln£ela but I better mIke it clear to him .
CRQSS-Ey.MIN:'T]ON BY AtN. SOG(iOT' (COmlNUEtl)Oid you never hear
or a.e that ahe went Ind atayed 1n No . l'a house? The house ot
hit per.nta1-No, she ..... there
10
20
At No. l's house?---but .. hat I .. ant to explsin 1. that 30
when I lOet Sttlnley tor the f1rtt time , .. e were st 10)' aiater
/Mavis't ••
- 68 - S C MBAYESE
!'.avis ' a plac ••
I understand trom No~lungele who told us that Stanley
had never been to Mavia ' e~lace.--- I don't know about it
You asw him in the houae?---Yes
Now I ~ talking ot ~hen you went to vieit Stanley , did you
go there in order to villit Ilomalungele? ___ ••
To Stanley'a houlle?--- No , I went to lIee my aiater N~lun
gelu at my aiater Havill's place. and I tound Stanley thera
And you ' ve never heard thllt Nomalungelu had becauae ot
trouble in Mavle's house, gone to etay in Stanley ' a houlle.___ 10
No Sir .
Your Sister hall told the Court that aomeone got ahot at
Mevia's house . How 1a it that you don't know anything about
it? ___ I don ' t know about It .
Do you and your slater not talk to one another about
things like thst?---She did not tell ilia about it
Did you tall her about your political activitie'?
Or your discussion, with Uo . l? Or did you keep that a a.-
cret?--- I kept thoa. a secret
So until thia day you never told her anything? About
what Ho . 1 spoke to you about?--- Up to thia date . excepting
the time when I was at U1 ':enhage
\#hat did you tell her when you ware there at that ti",.
1n Uttenhage?-__ l lIaid to her that SUnley sald •• had asid to
ae that he would go to Cape Town and troe Cape Town he .... ould
go via Ultenhage .
111 that all yOU told her?---I 11'0 told her that the rea
,on why Stanley wae SOlng to Cape Town W'II to go and tell
people ltIe>ut s.yrco
III that all you told her?---Yall,
Old you not diaculls it further?---No, .... e then IIpoke labout , ••
20
30
- " a~out our ho~e affairs.
5 C WAYESE
Did she know what Sayreo meant?---Yes, it was obviOus
that she ,mew
It was obvious that she knew. ---Yes
Did you find out the~ for the first tine or at JOhannes_
burg that ahe knew all about Sayrco?- - - • •
I am sorry that she knew about Sayreo. , not all about Sayreo .
---1 realized for the tirst time when she was in Johannesburg
that she knew about Sayreo
How dtd you tind that out?--- 10
BY THE COURT:That 1s now ~ce~ber 1979?---that is correct
CROSS-EXAMINATIONit' AnY . SOCCO'I':(CON'rIlIUEO)How dtd you rind it
out?---because she was in love with Accused No . 1 Stanley
So she knew all about his scttv! ties?---the iact that
he showed me the fact that No. 1 showed me the documents in
my stster '8 presence, YOIIT Worship, showed me that he, Ac
oUlled No . 1 had already !I:~o"'" ",y 515ter thelle doc=ent5 .
Yes , • •
BY THE COURT:ls that now your 5i5ter Nomalungala.---Yes.
CROS5-E1WHNATIQll BY ADV . SOGGOT: (COIl1'WlJED)Where did he show 20
you this? In her presenee?---at my sister Hav1s's place
Yes , so everyone saw 1t . ---No, just the three o! us
I see , and d1d she show an curios1ty or was it clear to
you she had seen 1t all be!ore?---At the time that this docu
ments were shown to me,she did not show any interest
But she saw?- - - yes s~e d1d
And it was clear to you that she knew about it.---Yes,
the fact that she also told me that is nOw No~alungela told
me that Stanley 1s 1n possession of soce written freedom
songs.
IYes •••
30
- " S C MBAYESE
Yes and did she tell you that. , --not written I a~ sorry
:'our 'liorahip , records.
Records.--records ot freedom 80ngs,
The problem ~lth that story 115 that Nomalungele has told
IUs ,",orship something quite ditterant. She has told H.iB 'oIoI'shlp
that on one particular occBslon she managed to osteal II look
into his briercase and there aaw 80me p8J;;phlets . , whieh he told
her not to look at. - - -then she 1s lying
Yes, or you are . ---No, I am not lyin8 , when I was there,
"omalungels was also present.
But then in Ultenhage when you were both back,you told
her that Stanley 1s golng to eome • • let us hear that again
please.---I told her that Stanley would !1rst start 1n Cape
Town, and then he would ecce back via Ultenhage.
Is that all you told her? ---1 alao told her that Stanley's
mission •• l ac sorry Stanley ~d gone there to tell people about
Seyrco . And then 1 told her thet Stanley would come and see
her •• and then she told me she did not want to see Stanley .
Did ahe tell you that Stanley had rung her up?---No , she
did not.
Didn't she mow that t.e intended coming dO'Wll?--l do not
know whether she knew abol.'t it ,
She never mentioned thet to you?---No to me ahe did not
Didn't ahe say to yo", that he has got a atolencar , he
told me on the 'phone he's got a stolen car,--- , .
He is coming to eollect boys with the stolen car . --No,
she did not .
There was s good relationship between you and your sister
a relationship of trust? - __ there waS B good relationship be-
tween us but there are certain things that I mention to her
and obviously she would keep that for herself.
/The.,
10
20
,0
- 71 - S C HBAYESE
The time when yeu . ,e 1n Jehannaaburg in Decemba, '79 ,
did No. . 1 have a m ·ter car?--- I de not knew Your Werahip
theugh t here wara two. cars parked in hia parenta ' yard •• l did
net knew who. ewnad those c..ra .
\"as ene ef tham a Pel:geot?---ene was a Peugeet
Which ha waa drlving?--- I de net knew whethe~ ha waa dri
ving it.
We::-e yeu pr.aent vher. he toek your aiate::- to. tha atat!. en
whan she went homa7- - _No , I vaa net .
You didn ' t avar aee hie taka yeur aister in tha Peugeet? 10
--- No. .
Ol d yeu t'Yer SO to Accusad No. . l'a houaa?---Yaa
About hov lIany tll1e5? ___ the fi )'at oecaaien that I ""a in
Jehannasburg I want thare ence ,
By yeur.alf ?--- Ya'
Fer what purpoae?---gone to aae him , Accused No . 1 . he
had i nvi tad ma to. ceme there ae that they ceuld ta:l lIa
about Sayrce .
Where had you lIat hio.?--_l had met hilll prier to. that
at Illy .1.ter Mavlll'al1ace
Was t hat tha firat t:'ce that yeu had me t hiCl?- --Yaa
Di d •• wera lIomal unge:e and Accused No. . 1 l ever.? __ _
Yea .
And he uaed to viait !'!avis ' a housa and ahe usad to. viait
hia heuae? __ well I do not know that Sir . I WIIS ataying in
Meadew1anda .
Yes , but when you were there yeu saw them t egether .
When you came to Sinowana you aaw them tegether •• did yeu net?
---Yes .
And I am a.yi ng he used to. coo. and viait her and ahe 30
used t o. go. 8"ld viai t hle"l .-__ thla ia ,0.. land ..
- 72 - S C MBAYES£
And MavU •• e.t lee.st Nomalungele was I1e.ppy ",ith hie , she
didn't Bay that ahe sa'" very litt:e ot him? --- I don't understand
the question .
I ",111 put it in a different ",ay, when you want to Stanley's
house were the other~ople there on occasion?---No, there "'ere no
other people .
'o'hat was he doing?--- Accusfd 110. 1 "'es in 'the dining-room
Doing ",hat? ___ he was aitting
And NOClalungele where was she at the t tice?--- she was at
her sister Mavis ' s ple.ce.
Did she coce over that day at all?
---later yes , she came .
To Stanley's place?
Later she came.---",hile I ",as at No. 1
Was that in the corning or the atternoon?---et ebout ••
during the day Your Worshi~
and when she came over , wl1e.t did you , . did the three ot
you just carryon talking or what? ___ Yes , we spoke about this
thing. , about Sayrco .
What did he say?---its the day that he mentioned that he
wanted Cle to join ,
And your sister heard that?--- lIomalungele, yes she did
The problem with the.t story is Nocalungele says that she
Imew noth.1ng ,. he ~"ld l",r uoLluIJI' • • ebout iU", S"YI'CO activl
ties. --- that I do not know about , I know what I know and
that 1& that she wes pr"sent.
I want to change the theme to come back to your interro
gation in the handa ot the police, you were taken to Sanlao
building, Cradock. ---Yes
Tell us what happened?---You mean at the SanlRC huildill8?
10
20
That is correct,---I was told to sit there , I sat en a JO
chair , waiting for the people of Uitenhe.ge who we:"e interested
liD ..
- 73 - S C MBAYESt
1n Cle .
debe,
u1d they come?---Yes, at about 10 they came
Who were they?---one ~tdte Clan not known to Cle
What 16 hh name?---I wall not told whet his name ill
A Cle~ber of the security branch?---Yes
And what did he say?---He asked me if I knew Stanley Re-
Now I just wort to eXB.:Iine)Our feelings at that stage , had
you heard about the security branch? Or read about them? __ _
Y01,l mean everything about the lIecurity pOlice?
Yes . --Yes
And had yo1,l heard that right • • that it is right or wrong
or had you read whether it is right or wrong, beca1,lse I am
not interested in a1legati~ns now? That allegations •• :aany
allegationa have been made that they assault and sooet1..mes
kill people . I am talking about allegations which are made
by other people including 'etainees . ---l heard •• 1 had read
about it .
You read about people jumping out of windows . --_No, not
10
abo1,lt it . 20
Y01,l heard about allegations or torture?---Yes
Electric shocks . " - - Yes
People being killed by being assaulted , ---Yes
And you tho1,lght did you not , thet it could happen to you .
---No Sir
Vhy not, you atteopted to recruit people who would be sol
diers why not?--- , ••
Unless you disbelieved the allegations , . that's another
Clatter , - --Well I believed the allegations,
Right yo1,l believed it, would it be correct to aey that 30
Imost , •
• H - 5 C MABAYESE
most students of your age ~elieve that aDeg.tlons? ____ • •
RigH[y or wrongly the1 believe it.---I don't know if others
do belleve it
You live wlth students, they are lOur friends , don't you
know what they believe abo\lt thi. very seriOUS alleg.Uon? --
we don't diseu ••• bout this
Very well, then you don't diacu&a it , now bearing in mind
that you had tried to recruit people who could become aoldiers
did you not think that the security branch ~ight be rough on
you? It. happened, I thought about it .
And therefore you were terrlfied . - - at what stege?
lihen you fOW1d yourself ln the hands of the security po-
l1ce . --/10 , I wes not .
Can you explain why? You thought it could happen with you
andyou knew that people cculd dle, why weren't you terrified?
--- because I did not know what I was being arreeted for
But you knew that YOI: had done aOlllethlng?- --No, what puz%.led
=e i8 that I wa. told I ~s wanted by the Ulterjwge police,
a~~ .t that tla. I had co~e beck troc Uitenhage .
'llhat did .. thls policec.n .sked you if you knew St.nl.y 20
Rad.be?---Yes
And then what did he ask?---He •• ked me nothing !Urther
So you •• id ye • •• • nd what was the next question? - __
I .ald I knew him,
And then?--- he then vent out there with other boys ,
they went to another building
And then?
BY THE COURT:Oid he leave you and go out?---Yes, he lett
~. with a Blaek police~an.
C'l.OSS-EXA:~I!lt.clr:; BY ADY. SOGGOT:(CO:;rmUEO)And when were you 30
• • 1 don ' t ~t to go throuth the Whole history, but were you /quUUoned • •
- 7S - S C M:lJ,YESE
questioned aga1n about Stsnley'8 .:;.ctiv1t1es or your activities?
---I •• the next time he clCe Your Worehip, I .... a8 told to stand
up and go to the motor car and • • because I would be tsken to
U1tenhage .
·ss that the s~e day?---Yes on the sace dsy
Were you tsken?--_I ""ss tsken to Ultenhage
By the gentleman from Uitenhage?- --I was taken by Black
policelll n an::! one White fToe Cradock to Ui tenhage
And in the car did t1:ey ask you questlons?--- lIo. nothing
And when jCu got to U1tenhage .... here .... ere you taken?---l .... all I(
taken •• we went into a certaln room,
Yes? ___ I was llIade to slt ln this room and a,sain .... as ques_
tloned about Stanley.
Were these police oUlcers?---the • • l was questioned by
the same person .... ho had questioned me earlier in Cradock
That is not an ans .... e~to my question, were these pollce • •
or perhaps there is a misunderstanding, wlth the .... ord ' offices'
I am sorry, .... ere these 'kantore' I am talking about Mr . I nter-
preter, not 'offlsiere' - - -where 1 was being questioned, Your
Worship, yes these •• this vas in polica offices .
Right now tell us what .... ere you questioned about? --
I was asked what Stanley had sho'flll me, I told thee he had
shown me books,
bid you say that straighta .... ay?---yes , and they askad
me further .... hat he had shown ee again , and I ~old them that
he had said they are the people who distribute pamphlets in
•• to scholars in So .... eto .
But you kne .... that Sayrco was an lllegsl organlzation . ---
Yes.
You also knew that you had got mixed up .... 1 th Stanley
and you worked or try to work for him?----Yes . /When • • •
20
'0
" - 5 C MBJ.YESE
'IilIen the pollce etarted Baking you questions , we,..en ' t you
very !rlghtened?-
And didn ' t you lit !lrat Btart •• ying 'look I know nothing
about It ' ?---No I did not
You didn't .
BY THE COORT: Hr . Soggct will you tell De .... hen it ... 111 be con
venient to interrupt your erollll-ex.~lnatlon . --Slr I had decided
to 80 thrcuSh to the t_1I interval •• end then with your perl:>la.ion
to eonault during and atter
VeIl tell ~e when it '01111 be convenient tor you to inter- 10
rupt your croll.-ex~lnatlon 110 that the Court can adjourn. __ _
Wen I ahauld l1keto • •• WllUII Your Worahip prei'er to .djour!'! now
because I am quite happy to b:eak ot! now.
Ie this II convenient atage •• -It 111 ~onvenlent Sir , I thought
Sir that we would no~.lly adjourn at 11.
It 111 11 now according to my wateh .---I have 10 . 53 .
V. won ' t argue about that __ I don't know what ~y watch'.
credib1lity ill .
At thh .tage the Court adjourns tor the tea interval
!JP(JII REStr.-lWC:
StHLA COLIN MBAYESE atill un6er oath
CROSS-EXANINATI'N BY HR . SCGG9T: {C01ITINUEDj 1 think that you
met Accusa6 No. 1 first et MaviS " house? On your evidence . -
Yea it is so .
Whatwere the circumatances , tell us why you were there .,
how did it cOllIe about?--_l had gone to aee I:y aiater tlOCIalWlfel.
And ordinary visit?---Ordinary viait yes
She didn't know you wer.comlng?
know I waa coming.
Or did liha?---she didn't
20
About what tice did you arrive?---1 would estimate betore 30
/ And •••
- 77 - S C MBAYE$t:
And ... hat time did you go?---before 12 in the day
~t time did you leave that house?--- at about 3 in the
afternoon
Did you go back to the house ... here you ... ere staying?---
Yes . And ... hen you got ther!, ... ho was in th! nous!? ___ ••
When 1 aay th!:,! I mean Mavis ' s house .---Accused NO. land
my sister Nomelungela.
Yes, so you clme in and let' 8 h8ar ... hat ... as .. ... h8 t ... as dis
cussed . --- ••
Tell us the con\·e!'satlon. ___ ... hst was dis cussed Your Wors hip
is that Accu8ed No. I prod'lced the two docume!15 that 1 heve
referred to , showed me , and then sls o 8aid that they Ire the
people who di~tribute pamphlets t o school Children ,
Yes, I kno ... that i8 y~ur eVidence-in-chief but I ao ask
ing you to be a little broader to get beyond your statement
to the police , "''hen you ClUe in there. what ... as the cliscus-
slon about? ___ .,
Were you introduced?---I don't know what was being dis-
10
cussed, but I ... as introduced by my sister to Accused No . 1. 20
Good, no ... tell us ... hat ... as the nex~ thing that ... as
said . After that introdu~tion? I want to kno ... how you
came to talking about ~ay!'~o, ---I~ediately after the in
troduction Accused No. 1 produced these docUCIents , the docu-
ments that 1 mentioned .
"''here did he have theJl?--- .•
... ·all it in a "---,,
In his pockets, in s suitceae1---he took them froe out
of hi8 pockets, hi8 trou8ers pocket
And ... hat did he sey to you?--- the !1rst thing he tcld ce .30
was that he ... s s a member, that they are the people ... ho issue
/psI:lphlets ••••
- 78 - S C KBAIE$E
1 •• ue p~phlet. to Soweto Icbool children, b •• 1'0 •• 1d thet
it on. joina tbl organlzation, t bey take bie out to pl.c.a 11kl
Laaotbo wb.r. be ,Ita trained .a •• oldler .
And tb.n hevlng •• 1d thet, whet vaa tb. next thine •• id or
done1--- H. tb.n .ald I .hould allo join. H. furth'r •• 1d that
th.y dld not have a chane. th.n and th.n told '1 to com. Itter
tl>r •• day ••
So he invltld you to join the or,.nizltlon , bl atteaptad
to rlcruit you to the org.nization in the firlt t •• elnut.a
of yoW' eeet1ni. --Yaa.
And what YOU'vl told u. I invitl you to ".!lact, what
you'v. told ua 1. that all b •• ald1- -y.a
Oid you a.y anything on that occalion1---anythlng elaa1
011 that acc •• ion.-H ... ld If I coe. back in thl' •• dlY'
al bl told .e, tb.rl would b .... tin, hald at hi. par.nt.
pl.c ••
I. there anythine .1 •• h ••• id?---Ho, nothine '01'1, I
th.n lett.
I rlpl.t .y qUI.tion, what lt anything, did you a.y1-
I •• id I would co •• h.ck ln thl'.e day ••
I. that all you vtter.d to hi. on that occ •• ion1---Y •• •
No I .1.0 aaked hi. what 1. the meanin, ot Sayrco.
Oh y.a , you haven't told u. that . What dld he aay? --
BY THE COURT:I bl, yoW' pardon what did yov .ak1--I •• ked hi.
what thl neae of S.yrco 11. He .aid it w" the Soutb Atrlcan
Youtb Rlvolutlon'ry Council.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY AOV. SQOOOT: (CON'l'IN1JEO)Vu that the only
explan.tion bl lav.'---thet i. all.
VIII you •••• I hay. I.k.d you aa to what you •• id,and
10
20
lOV g.ve v •• verlion. now you are comina out wlth .oa.thinl }O
new. You •• ked hi. what tt.l council w •• •• SOuth African Youth
/Revolvtion.ry ••
- 79 - S C PffiAY&SE
Revolutionary CO\,lllcll was and be anawered y01,l. ---Now my q\lu
tlon Is sgaln ls that tbe total sum of conversetlon wbich y01,l
had?---y01,l mean except what I have already saId?
Yea. ___ the total sum of the cODversatlon.
You are sure ot tbat, y01,l won't cbaDge and tell His Wor-
Ship e dltterent story • • ln two alnutes. ___ No, I wl11 not
Why la It that when the p~aec1,ltor aaked y01,l In chiet
-were y01,l Invlted to joln by No. I, you aaid yea y01,l .,ere in
vited "and that was when you on your lIecond visit to Johannea-
burg. ---No, I aald on both occasioDa the tirllt and the sacond 10
occ Bsion
That is not what y01,l told His Worahip in your evidence-ln
chiet •• I am atrald. Have y01,l got an answer7---I sald ao.
I 811 atraid y01,l dld not. Your evidence Is clear, you
told His Worahip when you came back to Johanneaburg agaln,
be asked you and let me add, let ae add, while you gave a
recital ot eVldence .,hicb i a very aiailar to what y01,l are
glvlng now, y01,l made no mentlon ot the tact that when he met
you, he aaked you to beca-e a member,--- ••
Ho., .,hich evidence ia correct? ---well, it Idid not men- 20
tlon it, in chief that he inVited me to join. then I had for
gotten.
Yell you ' ve forgotten .. --what I am aaying now 111 the truth
B1,It you told Hle Worahip he invlted Y01,l, the proaec1,ltor
esked you II clellr queetion ·.,ere y01,l invited to join' and you
s aid yell, that was on the occaslon when I came back II second
tilDe. Back to Johannesburg.--- ••
Johanna.burg in 1981 it is pointed out to me. Was that
a mls take?---Yes it meane then that I've .ade a mistake.
You see, you've told Kia Worahip then ot this diacussion 30
I.,ben • •
~ 80 ~ S C !mAnSE
when were you going to aee the .ccuaed .gain? 00 you a.y .fter
the firat occaaion?--- Atter three daya.
Did be tell you that after •• illllled_ely .fter ahowing you
the document. and telling you • ••• king you to ~eco~e a .ember
and theconveraation .a you deacribed it?---Ye. , .fter be had
told ~e what they are involved in doing.
Yea , then what happened .fter that? Attar he told yo~
'well I ' ll .. a you in three daya' .--- Ithen left.
Did you have to go or •• did you bave ao~etbing praa.ing
•• urgent ?---No, I was ju.t getting back home
So you weren't in • burry? - __ No I waa not in • hurry
And be w= not in • hurry?--Yea
And tbere waa no !ur~her converaation?---No there waa no
further converaation.
So what did you do f or three boura , look at the oeiling?
---which three hours?
You were there, you ' ve told us I think froa about 12 to
about 3.---sat there and liatening to the radio.
AndlOu had no furthar conversation?-- -Nothiq; rurther
10
And what did he do , did he Ju.t carryon talking to No- 20
,&1=gela?-- Yea
And you left the two of themtalking?---I told thea
I waa le,ving ju.t befor e
I know and when you left, thay were .till talking to
one another?-Well I left them here atill talking
Whatwere they talking about?--- I do Dot know Sir, I
wa. concentr ating on the radio
What . a .0 intereating on the radio?--- • •
You ' ve co~e t~i'it your aiater , you come fro. Maadow-
landa , ita, fair voyage and then you take no notice of ber. 30
You concentrate on a radio which youcan have every where .
IThe •• •
" - S C KBAYESE
The S " B C tel'Tieion isn't l1alted. ___ Well they vera talkin,
about tn-ir O~ art,ira, 80 I d.eid,d to listen to the redio .
Why did tb. accus.d .ey be vanc,d to apeak co you in three
dayt t~ •• Yhy didn't be ju.e .peak to you then? ___ H. ',ld 1n
three day., he would be having , •• ,ting with other people, and
then h' would be ,ble to explain to •• tully about this thing
But ... 88 that the atly re.,on he ,ave tor not expllllnlna:
turther to you tb.~ and th'n1--1,.
You are tor setting your .vidence. 01dn't be tell you t~t
h, bed no tla. then? To tell YOII all about 1t1---No, be did DOt 10
•• y '0. Well I want ••• y recollection and that ot .y l •• rned triend
1, chlot yol.l told Hi, Worship tbet Accu •• d •• 1d he didn't have
tia, end that 1s why be wanted you to come back in thr.e
d.y. , ---Ho, tllat va •• y concluslon Slr that he dld not have
the chance then.
Well that 1a Dot Yhat you alllll, -1 add ao
And th. raaaon you. uy .aa he v.nt.d yw to coae to a
."tin, .h'r' there would b, en ,xplen,t10n,---Dld I siva that
aa a rla.on?
I .. aaking you nov, Ia tNt vNt be told you?--_
that i. the reason he (lve ."
So that he and other. could Ixpl,ln to you ln a .eetlDg
wtwlt the orgenlz.t1on 1, .bout? __ that la ao,
You dldn't aay that in ywr ,vld,nce-ln-chief, you
•• U .oaething dlffer,nt"you .. ld he .,nt,d you to COllI' ao
that ba could read the doeu.enta to you, No .ent10n of a
aeating In your ,vidence-in-chief, ---I dld .entlon , ."tlng
Well, I .. afrald yo'.l did not. Andyou auat ,cc'pt that
unless .y learned friend or Hi. Worahip Indlcate that .y
queatlon 1. wrong. you .u.t accept that'. right. Otherwlae
Ive •••
20
"
- 8 2 - S C KB,m;SE
wa wa.te tl.a.---l ~annot Iccapt that thinl' 1 dld Dot .ay be
be I~ch al havinl beln a.id by .e Sir
I j~at want to I~"ea! to yo~ that yo~ are beinl i.parti-
nent to the Co~rt. ___ Not that I .. baln, i.pertinent.
~t you are tellin, !lia Wor.hlp 11 that the aceu.ud did
not even •• k you what your .ttltude va. in joinin, Serreo.---
1'10 he did not
And he told you nothing .bout the or,ani~.tion.---tha
only thin, he told .e Sir 11 what I have already .ald, he had
people who i.'~ed thele p .. phletl to • • in Sowlto.
lei. but tor what purpo .. ? What ... lt .bout. dld you
have .ny lde.? ___ be did not explaln to .e
lou never heard at the or,anl~.tion Serreo betore did
you?_eorreet.
So you had no id .. wl:et the aetivity was about?_O'thlr
than that thlY dl1trlbuted p .. phlet •• ---YII, exeepUn, th& 1
Imaw it val politleel or,m1ution.
lll, but then d1dn't you a.y to hi. what dld they do,
wha t 11 the1r lde.?
I did not •• k ~.
What lort at an or,aniz.tion i. it?---
1 ju.t want to •• y to you that •• put lt to you that .n
tIIne.t reeonltruetloD ot III .tte.pt to reerult .a.ebody, In
atta.pt to parauade loaebody, would have tha. Bort ot eonver .. -
tion. ___ 1 did not think ot a.klng hi. any que. tiona
When you aaw your 11ster I,ain, did you aplI.k to her about
tha req~IIt? Ot No. l'I.---1to I did not
Why not? Shll 111 oldar than you, --yll l aha la
And ian't ahe 11kll a parent to you when the two ot you
... ra away troe hOlla? ---lea
10
20
\'hy didn 't you lay to hllr what dOli thll ... n, ·what dOIa }O
thla or,aniZltlon 'Ian, abould 1 jain, ahould I not join·?
/--- 1 ..
-" S C KBAYESf;
-1 wanted the pereon who _II telling •• about it to explain.
But why didn't you a.k hi_ then? ___ ••
He _u there, chatting to ;,toW" shter, why not uk hlCl?-
But be 'ald 1 .hould coma .tter three day., 1 would get el •• rage
on this atter three day.
But why DOt .ak your slater you thought that ahe kn ••
every tiling , wby not aek her?-- But ehe would not know .ore than
Stanley.
Hive you got any co~.nt on your aiater ' . evidence that
Mo. 1 never ellA. to Havle'. hou •• • ---l do not know about that I e
Has JU,via got any other nue?---l only know Kavl.
You 've never heard the word Kary?--No , I alii I.llledto the
n ... Mavle
'there 1. only one ttater $0 that we drew that concluelon.
Thera 1e only one aiater who liv •• near to Mo. 1'. bou •••
--Yea
And can you .~pl.ln to ~ why your alater should rater
to her •• Mary? Hava you any 1de.s, 1 .S*D you don't havs
to .ccount for her behavi~ur . ---She refers to my sist.r .s
Mary , but I grew up referring to her •• Kavi ••
But I .sked you .bout Mary Just now *Dd you B.ld you
dldn't know .bout it.--- ••
On • minor little point Iike~h.t you C*D't give proper
evldence .--what I ~ s.yl~g ls that I d1d not know that Nom._
lungel. referred to her •• Mary.
But I told you that. That 1. Dot the question, --what d1d
you tell me?
In April .nd M.y of 1980 you were no longer 1n Johannesburg
---what waa your quest10n before you .aked .e that?
20
You l.en to thh question , in April or Kay 1980, were 30
you ln Johanne.burg or not?---I wa. not here.
ID:l.d ••
- 84 - 5 C MBAY£.SE
Did yo,", h.ar .t any at.ge in that period, yoW" d.ter .... nt
to .t.y . ith flo . l. ___ flo Sir
I .. ju.t putting thi. to give you • • to g.t c1.rity, lIy
inatructionll .re that you in bct otten viaited No . 1 bec.uae
your .iater floll.dungeh wall otten there, not thet ahe ..... atey-
ing there , actually .leeping there, at the tiae ot yoW" tirat
viait. ---Wa11 I egree to ~t
Yea, and)Ou sot to kno ... tbe aother and the tather • • No. 1 ' .
aother and tether quite ... ell, and el.o hia couain.---I kno ... thaa
by aight .
You aey that yo,", viaited yoW" ai.ter otten , et flo. 1'.
hou.e , can you thro. any l1Sbt on tbia auggeation to the Kagia-
trate to His Worship, that 1t .aa on one occaaion only and
.t night that aha .. ent to hilt ho" ••• ---•• 11 tbe o.uy t1.ooe that
I ae .. her at 5tanley ' a place, ie the occaaion that I have
aentioned .
Then I don ' t underatand the evidence yo,", have juat given.
5 ••• ; Edela,bare , .k ia j ... er oa te ond.rbr •• k, .k 1a jammer
ek .11 ni. lIy g.l.erde vriend onderbre.x nie , .... e die getuh-
10
nia ve.n die auater nle dat ay net een ke.r daar gealeap h.t 20
nle, ek weet ni •• •
DElli. DIE HOF:,u lIy geheue lIy •• - - 5.A . : Ek het nie ' n note nie
ex pra.t ook ,",it geheu. ult •
.loa ek reg onthou w.a ay apeaitiex ,evra waeroll ay d1e
beakuldigde aeer dan een aaal besoek h. t nie , en .y het ,eant
woord de t ay waa nie genool nle.
AOY . 50000T:5y waa ook voorgeatel op d. ardie aand
5 • .1. . : Nee, dlt 1a goed, dank1e &delagbare.
BY THE COURT:Wsa your 1aat ana ... er that you a •• yOW" aiater on_
ly once et No . l ' a house?--- Yu
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV! 50GG0T : (CONTINUEO)Waa that the time I.tter •••
30
- 8 5 - 5 C HBqtsE
t1ae after your tiTet vlslt , 1 .. sorry your tirst aeetln,
with No . l? ___ Ho, the first occeslon wes et my e i ster Mevis's
pIece
Thst we know, try an~ concentrate pleese , the next tilile
when you went to h1l house , was that st the tille ot your next
vis lt atter your tlrst visit when you f1r.t met No. 11- - -
BY THE COURT:l don ' t undar.tand the que.tion Mr . Souot 1 ..
lorry. - 1 .. tlllr.1n, about a visit to hi •• isUr " ho .......
That is now durin, 1979.--Y.' , and I und.rstlnd •• thank you
Sir , I understand the pOllible contusion . I alii .skinS h1111
lt he rellle.b.rs h • •• t AccuI.d .t Mevla'. house. My n.xt
question 11 W.I it at the t1m. ot hi. next viait to his aister
1n the ••• e .onth , that he tound h.r at No. l'a plae • •
VITKESS: This i. correct Sir.
CROS5-BAMIH,!.TlOIl ex AQV , SOGQOT:(COHTlHUEO)And she •• l think
you .sid w •• alone there with him?--- Yes they were alone there
And _s that your fint vis1t to his house? ---It _s the
tlrst vlsit
How how .any days l.ter tro. the ti.e you tir.t •• t him?
1C
---It wun ' t .xactly aftlr thr •• days he had .aid but atter 5 20
day • •
Alter tiv. day.. I lee. And whit happ.ned on that oeca'ion?
~t dileus'ion _I thera1--_the day on which h. said we ,hould
80 Mtutu~ell ' a hous.
I don ' t und.r'tand that. You 80 and •• et •• you ,0 end s.e
your slIter at hi' hoUle, and thia ls 5 days l'ter attar the
t1rst lIIeetins, 1, tl\at rlght?---X"
And I repeat tl\at WlS the tirst vi.it to hi. hous •• - - -
Xel.
Now my que.t10n 1. vhat happened on that occasion when ,0
you found hi. and the .i.ter alone?- --H •• aid we .bould 80
/1 • ••
• 86 • S C KBAY&SE
I ,hou1d .cco.p.ny hi. to Ktutuz,li ', bo.e
Nov . hat ••• the pOint of co.ins •• ia that by the .. y why
you went to hi' hou'e bec.use he had e'ked you to come after
three d.ya , ___ Yea
Becau'e you thousbt there would be • lIeetins there. ---
1Ibet ti •• w,a the .Htin, &OinS to be held?_~ did Dot
.ention the till'.
But didn't you .. k hill, ---1 did not aak hill .
Well. the thins 111 I atll1 don't W1de .... t.nd yoW' eVidence 10
becauae you told Ki. Worship that the rea.on . hy you .ent on
that occ"ion •• a to a •• your aiat.r.--You .ean the ,.cond ti.e
thet I vitited SnoYalle?
You know pert.ctly "ell whe t I • • t .. ll<1na .bout, the ti ...
ot your tirat vi'it to hi, hou ••• ---I ,tart .. d .t .y .1,10.1'" pl.c ... and then proceeded to ~ccuaed No . 1'. h~ ...
Toattend •••• tln,?--~tendins ••• eting
Why do you tell Ki. Wor.hip thet JOu went tb.r. in order
to ate your e18t.r7-- yt,ere? 1 t1ret .ent to .ee at .y ei,-
tel' Kav18'. place , it .y other .1.ter NOIIalWigela .. a there. 2(
She • •• n ' t hOlle, I tben ..... nt over to Accu.ed No. I ' . pl.ce,
and thera I tOWid bel'.
WIll 1I:Iat tllr_ d.y. later atter tbe tille tlltot JOu .et
No . 17-1 did not go in exactly three d'ya.
Tou told Hil Wor.hip you went back ln three day' in
t.rll& ot your •• in terll' ot No . l ' a requeat . ___ I went there
becaule of hi. I'equ .. t
No but it 11 ,etUna: .01" and .or. d1tficult, ... thia
etter three deya or tive dayathat youwent b.ck? ___ After tive
d.ya and not on the d.y that .e had arranged
Then .hy did JOu tell Hia Worahip 1t ... UteI' thr .. d.ya
/that • •
- 87 - S C MBAmJ;
tn.t youvtnt back. ---I .ad. a .iatak.
And you want furth.r , you aaid you didn't aay that your
aiat.r wa. th.re. Tou .aid that No.2 wa. there •• in No.1',
bou.e .-_No,
~idenc.-in-chi.f •• in Ividlnc.-in-chie!, i. that ri&ht ••
BY THE COURT:That i •• o.--~nk you Sir.
C!tO~EXN1INc\TION BY @Y. $9GC9I(COI'ITINUEtl) Why did you t .. ll loUa
Worah1p that you returnad ,fter thra. day.?-I .ay I .ade a
.i.tUe Tour Wor.hip
And can you tell u. vby you laid that No. 2 wa. tharl
when in tact you say now that only No.1" .tater va. there ••
I .. aorry your sister WI' with No.1 there?---I .aid Accused
No. 1 and .y .iater Hoealungela wa. there
That 1a not trul I'. atrltd. Tou 'Itd No . 2 .. a th~e.
_No, Accu.ld No . 2 _, pre,ent at Accu •• d No. I'. plac. d\l
ring .y a.cond vie it to Johanneaburg fr08 Credock.
I.e. and w,a it th.n that he told you that hi wla .... -
ber ot Sayrco?-- Tea
I juat want tQ put it to yO\!. th8t Accueed No. 2 w111 deny
10
it. ,and I w.nt to put it to you that your Ivid.ncI .u.t be I 20
flbrication, becau.e HO. 1 wla in glol .t the tt.e and that
will be prov.d beyond a ree,onable doubt . ---I .ight be .uing
I .iltake Ibout th.date, Your Worship, but .y evidence 1a true
WIll, I'.,e got instruction. on 'bat, the Iccua.d .. ya th8t
•• Ho . 1 a'YI that he VI' .ware ot ody one vi. it ot youra to
Johann.sburg. --He il not telling the truth.
Y.a , and you youra.lf were abaolutely clear whan you came
to Johann.,burg on the ,econd occ.aion •• that ia •• that it .. a
in OIc •• b.r, I think you told Hla Worahip that it waa the
tirat week 1n Oea .. ber, ar.d that you laW the Accua.d the third )0
w.ek 1n Dec •• ber •••• econd . I think yOur Wor.hip work.d it out
Ito ••
~ aa ~ 5 C KBAIESE
to tbt' third week.
SY THE COURt: lthinlr. he •• ld two w.ek. after hill ... rlvd •• -DEf'£NCE:
tMt I. rleht •
•• th. third we.k ot o.c •• b.r.--tbl I. correct
CROS5-EXAI'IIHATlOH BT ApV. SQC(;Qt:(COHTINIJED)Do you want to ehAng.
the .vldenc.?--- I .ald .0 Your Wor.hip, wha t I .. nt to •• y now
la that I _liht b. _liking II lIIiatak. about the date. but the
avidenca that I .. glvln, 1. the truth.
W.ll, were you .t .chool .t the tl.e that you c .. a up in
Dec •• ber 19811-••
I .. not dlaputlng yOll c .. e up In Dece.ber 1981 that you
lIIieht hav. done, - 1 wa. at .chool Y"
Y .. , and .0 it w&1I durlng the Dec •• b.r hoUdaya.--Y"
Your hoUday •• tart In Oec .. bar.-betore Dec._b.r
Wh.n? ___ l've torgotten whan
W.ll, bOW _any day. batora Dace-bel' doell It .tart? ___ I've
torgotten.
You've tor gotten. But tben it la quite cl .... that you only
aaw the .ccuaed .a.ething Uke two or thr.e weekll fit tel' you
arrived . -- Te ••
theretore that .u.t bav. be.n In Dectlilber .--Yell, I think
••• You undentand that? How I .. puttlng to you that ne
... In Jail then. And that you _uat ba wrong. --No I do not
know .bout that he wa. in Jail •• 1 .aw ~.
How It w.a on the .eeoruS oec .. lon In Decelilber 1981, that
•• no 1 .. aorry I w~raw that, wh.n did he aak you to recruit
peopl.? __ On ., .econd vi.it to Johanne.burg.
Vb.r. did he uk you thll.t?
At hi. parent.' be •••
Who w •• pr •• ent?- -_He and AecUlled Ho. 2.
/Whlt •••
10
20
'0
- 89 -
What did you "Y to tbat?--- I 'aid I would try
~d did he a,k you to join on that oeca,ioo?---T.,
And what did you .. y to that?-I ,l1d I will think about it
I hava oat concluded yat.
In other word" you .. d. it cl.ar to hia that you WOWd
,.you w.r. uoc.rtain wheth.r you want. d to join Sayreo,---Y ••
D.spit. that, he .sk.d you to recruit wben you 'till h.,i-
tatin, about joinin" he a.k.d you to r.cruit peopl., ___ T •• ,
that I . howd look tor ~opl.
And yO\l asned to dO that?-l.a,
But wby do you agr •• to reeruit p.opl. tor an or,aniu.t1on
wb.n you art 'till be,itatiOC to becnae • m .. ber.---I wa. doina
thi •• ol.ly tor hi_. But be asked you to join, why didn't you then join .ol.ly
tor hia? --1 had not eoae to tl'at concludon
rhat i. correct, and that i' why you didn't acc.pt it. You
didn't asr.e to join bec.uI. you w.re 'till thinking .bout it,
__ l.a
lou had hesitations about the or,aniution.-T ..
10
At tb.1a ,tage, do you bow anything more about it? __ • • 20
C_pared with ttl, tiae that h. tirat met you , did ,ou
now lI.oow aoythina more about it? ___ No, it wa, 'till what I
know, on the ~lrat 000 •• 10D.
Well, didn ' t you ,ay to him-look h.re, two year. a,o
you proaiaed me to tell a. all about it, How can I j01n
.n organization unl.8, I kDow what it i •• bout?- ---Vben I
a.k.d him, be •• id to ae the p.ople witb who. he could hold
a ••• tin" are ,till not tb.r., the otticial ... ember •• H.
,aid 1n ord.r that the conltltutlon ot thi. organizat10n
.bawd b. re.d to .e . ,tbe otb.r p.opl. hav. to b. there ,
Vb.n did he .11 you tbat?---thl. wa' the second occ •• ion
lIt ... .
"
- 90 - S C KBAlESE
Ita yoW' e,,1denee no".a I Wlderltalld It , thlt you •• 1
.. aorry, I w1thdra" thlt, vaa tblt at bil bouea that be told
you tbie 011 tbe aecond occlelon? ___ T. 1
And I think you I.ld you .... nt to bil hau'e otten1- - -Ho.
Vaa i t only once that you .... nt to hia bouee?--_I " ent once
yea during ey aecond v1alt to Johann~url
So vaa that tbe(n!y tie. you " ent to hia houae?_Yea, untl1
I went beck ~e.
Well, I UI etreld .. lte lequlte clear 1n yOW' evidence
1I0W that you aa" hla •• went to hie hou'e once only and thia "a' 10
durla& your .econd vl.1t 1~ 1961?-__ Yea 1t 1 •• 0
BT THE COURT: Dld you v1alt hLm only onee.t hil bou.e, only
onee 1n your 11te?--- Only onee
Only once 111 your vhole 11te, t~t'-I durln« your leeond
vlI1t . ---there VIe en occa.lon Your Wor.hip when I " ent there
It WII In tbewenlnl at about dUlk,
I vant to let clarlty about thil. bov aany ocelalon. In
your whole 11te, dtd you v111t hie at hil houle? _It lIon
tour occlsiona Your Worlhip.
Vhen " ere the tour occulon.?- - - the t1r.t oceulon WI. 20
when I t ound h1a wlth ay ••
Let UI put 1t th1+ay, bo" .any occ.done dW'ln& your
flrst vldt to JohaJmeeburg and bo" uny occI.lone durlng
yOW' I.colid vlelt? --Once Your Worah1p
Once dur1ng your f1rlt v1alt . ---Y,I , that 11 at hil pa-
rents ' place •
•• 1 went there on two occ.llon • •
VeIl that i. thre. , --- Tee , .~cept the day whell •• on
Which I eet hi. In .y a1at,r'e place
The queltlon wa. how .. ny tlael dld you villt hie at Ihis ••
- 91 - S C JllBAYESE
hia house •• l am aorry Sir that 1 am interrupting your eroaa
examination, this m.y be lmportant. - __ ADV . SOGGOT: Not at ell
air .
WITNESS: On three oeeaeiona .
BY THE CDUUT: That lI .,w once during your fir st ."lIit, to Jo
hanneaburg, - - once during my firat viait to Johanneeburg , and
t wice during my second visit •• to Johannaaburg.
CROSS-HAMINATION 5!I AOV . SOGGOT: (CONTlNUEO)Why is it that
you told His Worahip that it waa once only ~d then you edded
no there waa another occuion at duak . ___ well aa things • • aa 10
it is Your Yorship , I remember vividly aome of theae occasions
You alao told Hia Worship that you uaed to viait hia
house fr equently • • in order to sae your aiater.--- ••
00 you want to change that evidence7--No I did not say
tt\e.t .
You did not aay it. very well , - -No , I did not say it .
Right, I wsnt to fin ah thia off, on the firat oeceeion
you .et hi., wbat happened and who waa thera7---
BY THE COURT: At ~vll's houee. - -MR . SOGGOT: I am aorry, I
am talking about No . l ' a bouse. 20
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADY . SOGGQT: (COIfl'INUED}On the firat oc-
casion you went to No.1 ' , house . Just tell ua what happened
there?--
BY THE C!XJRl': 1$ this now •• you are referring to the 1979 vi
s1t7 __ that 1s eorreet, whltever date he puta on it • • whatever
aequence he gives .
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADY . SOGGOT : {CONTINUED)Just tall ue • • I
want to identify the occasion, I don ' t want too many detaila,
who Wl a there and what happened7--- at h1e parenta' hom.?
Yes .---He , aeeused NO, I and my Ueter NOmal ungela were 30
there
IYes •• •
- 92 - S C MlIAmE
Tell. and then what hIIppened?-tbe day on whlch he llaid
we IIhould Co, accoapllny hla ao t~t ha ,etll Acculled No. 2
troa hie hOllla. ao that a "nUn, couldba arrangad
And dld you do that?--_No wa d1d not
Tou. dId not. ---No, we dld not go to HtutuunI'1I houu
RiCht, the next Uae was whan1 That you went to hls houlle?
---My lIecond villit to Johanaesbur,.
And what happened on t~t occaaion?---that -.a the occllaion
I .et hi. tocether with AccWled No.2.
Yea. and what happened thera?---that -.s the day accused 1e
lei . 2 also told . a he _s •• e.bar ot SaYT'co . and than tha ac-
cUlled No.1 St anlay, aald to.e up to now they atl11 baye not
bad a cbaaca. I ahoW.d go back to Meadowlands.
R1ght and the third occas10n1-Oo the third occ .. lon, I
was y1a1tlng .y aiater N0CIl1.lOCels, at about dusk on that day ,
I .at hi., he waa coalng troa his parenta' ho.e.
Yea1 ___ Ve then proceeded togather to Accusad No. 2 's place
BY THE COUR1' :Wbere dId you .eet hi.? ___ Tour Worship I -.s coing
to his parents' p1aca and be wes co-lag out so we .et In tha
atreet.
In the atreat outside his p1aca?-In the street outaide
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY !.OV. SOGGOT:{CONTltiUEO)1'ben you want to
No. 2' s house, and what happened ther.?---Yes, we t01.lOd that
Accused No. 2 waa DOt at bollia.
And -.a •• on thoae t~-ee occ.siona, I .. sorry, thoae
three occasiona plua the occuion that you saw hi., in your
aister 's houlle, ware those the only occeslons you had dealings
witb hi.? ___ Yea
And have you told us everyth1nc that had hap~ned on
those tour occaa1ons?-Yn. aa tar .a I rellll!lllber
Where -.s he when he told you that you should recruit
/ --
20
3D
- 93 - S C HAlIAmE
r.erult?---at hi' parent"~ ~e
On what oeea,lon waa that? At hia parenta' ho~e. you 've
11van ua thr •• ? The firlt, I,eond or th, third?---dur1nl thl
flrlt ceellion.
Vh'n your atlt.r waa there?--_'l ..
I lee . She beard thIot?---'l.a, ahe did
ADd you av .. d to It?--I dld not av •• to it, I bad not
.. de ay.,aade up .y alnd I've not oondud.d that
ADd dld you tell hia that?---No, I jUlt kept qullt, I dld
DOt tell ha .
You've 11vID Hil Vorahip a dlff~ent veralon. Lat'a •• llt
.e juat deal with th' rlerultlng, blelule I want to flntah oft
now , you tri.d to recruit two people what are their __ .. ? __ _
lukele who?---ZUkele Nakl and sandele Galo
WhIr. do th.y l1ve? __ -Cradoek.
In what tOVlUlb.1p?-L1nge L1 tehl
And you·v. told ua ttat they reru..d?---tbey rltuaed
When ... that •• that you a.de that Itteapt to reoruit?--
Att.r.,. return trom ay aecond vlait to J'ohannllburl
I think Sir that I've donI, lt Your Worahip will bear
with .1 , I would like to glanee throulh a, not."
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
CR05S-EXN'IlNATION lIT AOV, B6$SLlAN,No quutlona
HERVDHOCfI pEllR pIE S.A.' EX w11 nIt bt dat .11 jouallt .oet
orilnt.er ten opalcte van die tye .. t jy lenoe~ het ln jou getutenta . Hoy jy het 11'1 jou letuienia ges' ~ JOY eerate
b •• o.k .an Johannl,burl w., g,durende •• wanneer Ie .... ? ---
1979.
En die .aand?---Oe ... b.ra.and .
En die tW'lde beaoek!---1981 lEn ••
10
20
,0
- " S C KB.I.:rest
En d1, ••• nd?---Aa et rag ontbou d1t we. ook in nea.abar
Nou load, tan Jy ontbou wann •• r Jy d.ur di e poliaie ,t_ arr etes t.er 1I?---Ek ontbau nag
Watter 4,tWl ..... dlt?- ••
191- -1982 .
Maal"t , ...... JOU arTU .at ander woorda , .. , .. , •• and. Da-
6at Jy Jau twlt"e b"oek un Johann" burg ,r,elt het,1I d1t
Jau getuienia?---dlt 18 '; ,etulenl. " • •
Hat Jy verlede "ear in 1961 ekool ,.,aan?---ek ..... op
.11;001 , ........
VIotter aUnderd het .1y daar gadoen 't-Std. 8
01t 1, nou v'rl ad. J. ar 1981 ,ewe •• . ---J'a.
Goad, het Jy Ilega Std . 8 op ekool ".l.a,?---N ... . 11:
bet n18 Stal,., nit .
Maar jy het .t, ... n gadaen. -N •• , til: het oak nie ,11:,,-
En was 41t ,.W •••• an d1. ,lnd, van 1981?---dlt 1e eo.
Toe breek d1e vakanale aan.---Ja.
En 1s JOu ,.tu1tnl, d,t dit toe Wall dat Jy d1e t".,de
b.,oak .an Johann,.burg gebrina het?---dlt 1. b •• lt ... l r eg
REUB PI~ HOF jNadat die akole geal~it het?--- voor die akole
,eal~it het .
ffERVERHOOR DEUR pIe S, A. ( HERVAT)Wannear het die akola ,ealuit?
--- ek kan n1e ontbo~ wannear nie,
NOU a. Jy vir d1e Hot a e •• • k vra di t ne aenleiding van
'n antvoord vat Jy v.ratrek het 1n kruiaverhoor op 'n atedium
det Jy ia nie aeker OOr die •• jy ken tOYteer oor die tye . Aa
10
"
jy 1I0,.ir die Hot in JOY getuian11 al dat J,. in o.sellber 1961 X
JOY tve.d. beaoak ,ebr1ng het , --ek bet ao ge.e Iweer ••
- 95 - S C MBAY'ESE
"ar waa jy ,edurend. 1960 v.xana1e ,ewe.a? ___ ek waa
1n Cradock ,.w ••••
GEEN VERDERE VRAE
pEUR DIE HOF: Waaro. het jy verlede jur nie alr.auen gnltryt
D1e?-ek het a1ek ge>lOrd.
VaarOll het jy aanvanll1k Dea .. ber, 1961 ,ek1ea aa d1 •
• aand waarop jy •• a. die •• and ,edur.nde wanneer jy Johanneaburg
toe gelr.o. h.t?---Ede1agbare elr. het deardl. tyd van dle jaar
gaklea o.dat ak van .y tenta geld .oe. ko. vra het o. hierd1e
jaar 1962 tarug te ,aan alr.ooltoe.
SERTIF!KMT
Ek,d1e ODder~kende aerttrlaeer hler.ee dat voorergeande
'n ware .n jul.te oorkonde is Tan die getu1.n1a van S C
Hbayeae 1n die .aak van d1. Staat teen Sydney Redebe .n 3 ander S.ek Kempton Park S H 635/82.
o STER : J MEETHLIN(l
lC
KI1.20 - 96 - MASHIANE
SOMABELE JOHN MASHIASC v.o .... (Deur Tolk)
ONO£RVRAGING OEUR AANKLA~R: U 1. woona9ti, te Kliptown? S .. noane
in Soweto ek i. jammer . -- Ja .
U was 9.bor. in Kliptown .11. vr. verlkonin9. --dit i. 10.
Haev .. "l kinden het u? -- Oit il nt. eintlik "')' "t. kind .. n
ni .. , Die kinden 11 Illy :'roer .'n , en hulle woon by Illy. Oaar
is 1 van hulle.
I. dit korrek dat die 3de en ... e naam i" TilllOthy Ha"hian .. ?
Oit h 10.
HOF: II hy di. jon9lle? -- d1e jon91te v .. n die dde. (10)
wanneer 1 ••• het u vir TillOOthy ge.i .. n? -- Oit W.I in 1980
9ew .... S, alhoewel ell. ni ..... ker il nte •. v.n dt" datum en d •• rdi ..
jaar nt ...
MNllLAER: I. u getuienis dat hy net ""'9<Jeraak het? -- Ja, ell.
will tuts gewee. die dag t oe hy die huh penc.anent verbat het.
U "al tuil toe hy dit verbll het? -- Toe hy dt. hu1l
perlDll.nent verlaat h .. t ja.
DEFENCE, If I ... y int .. rrupt. I don't "ant to cut III)' Learned
Friend ' s tillie, but I take it he il not prop<)sin9 to lead hear
.ay eVidence •. what TillOOthy .aid {20)
AANllLAER , Die Tolk .,,1 dit 0011. 16 ventaan. -- Oit "al olllfltreeks
11 uur ,eweel in die 0991!nd. Toe hy _99aan, h .. t ell. hom gevra
"aa .. heen hy 9 •• n.
wat hy 9 ••• h .. t. w11 ell. ni .. "eet nie. -- Eintl1k h .. t hy
ary nie gelll waarh""n hy 9alln nie.
Ja. het u ledertdien enige iet. van hom gehoor? -- Oaarna
ni .. meer nie.
lien u enige een van die be.kuld19del nou VOOr die Hof. -
Ja, ary seun van lIlY Duurun dH! ken ek.
Wie h hy? Stanley die belkuldi9de 1. "'>J Het / ••
•
Ul. 22 - 97 - MASHIAN£
Met hy en Ti.athy ... k .... r geken? --J .. , hulle _t _k .... r
ken, hulle het ... am groat gewor4.
Met hulle .aam gekuler .ome of weet u nie? -- Ja, nie
veel in die hui. in nie, maar hulle wa. gewoonlik ... am gewees.
~RUISONOERVRAGING O£UR ~R SQGGOT: Geen vrae
KRUlSONO£RVRAGING OEUR I':NR BASSLIAN: Geen vue
GEEN VERDERE VRAE
ALLEN KARK VUXlLE BOOt v.o.e. (Deur 1'o1k)
ONOERVRAGING DEUR AANKLAER: Mnr Booi, wa .. r is U tan, werksaarn?
Ek 11 tans werk.aam I:y Volklk ... Inlurance Broklrl. (10)
In watter hoedanigheid i. u a. lulk. daar werkaa •• ?
Ek werk da .. r al 'n insurance conaultant.
Nou ken u enlge va~ die beakuldlgdea voor die Hot? -- Ja.
Wie ken u? Ek ken vir Stanley.
Stanley, dit ia No.1. --J". W .. nneer het u hom ont.JDoet.? I!in of fl>8er. -- So by die ein-
de van die j"ar 1979.
waar .. of lut ek <Oit s6 .tel, watae werk het u toe 'J1!
doen aan d1e einde van 1979? -- Ek was 'n eienaar v .. n 'n winkel
gewees. (20)
Waar? -- In Phiri ~oonbuurt..
la dit OOk in Soweto? -- Oit 1a korrek.
Goed, u .& u het. vir NO. I on~t, waar het u he. ontmoet.?
As ek terllqdlnk Edelagbare, ek was bellq geweea 0lIl 11)1 ~OlIIbi
req te .. aak .n dit waa voor di. wink.l qeparkeer qewe ••• (oor
na kaa.et 12) En toe het 'n perloon daar geko"', die perloon het.
met ' n Kombl voertulq gekom,di6 het hy geparkeer om in dte
winkel in te kom. Ona bet toe gepraat. oor waa .... e ek bedq "as
naamli.k die enjin van die \{01Qb1.
En die peraoon wie II op hi.rdl. wyae <;Ienader het, wle (30)
was / ..
•
1112.01 - 98 -
va. dlt.? -- Oit ..... toe beakuld!",d" 1 9" ..... "S.
NO\'! 9oed. "It ..... nOli die .erat. ont_tlng tus •• n \l ."
No. I? - - dit .... ,;Ii. "erste cnt_ting ja .
Na hlerdle "erate o~tJDoetlnq wa. daaT snder on~tlnq.
gew",,_ t.u •• "n jull.? - - En d •• rna :la, aD at en toe hat hy na
dh winkel toe ... ,,1<_. Het :lulls bloat kenni .. " gably ot hat julle vriende ",sword?
Ons het toe vrlend. geword.
NOli .... nneer het II opgehou Om ' n wlnkeller te ..... ".? -- In
(0)
NOll 9oed, "Ie. wl1 h& II JDOet • . II sa II .. a. vTtende gew ••• met
beakllldi",d" NO . 1. I{an II vir die Hof In II ele woord. vertel
in verbaI'd met enl<]e in8idente .. at pl ••• gevlnd het? Tyllena II
9 •• prekke en d16 tlpe ding . - - Ed.tagh.re , d.>ar I, bU. qoed
wat Ona 9"8ela het . Ona 1& vrlende , en bale hu l p .. at hy my aan
gebled het 8008 byvoor beeld 0lQ U help raet die Mn •• wat pla by
die winkel ilil ek nie by a nia. Alhoe_l ek nie ileker iii Viln
die dilt."'- nia, .. a. daar geleent.hilid 9'!W"'iI t.oe ek vir hc:. ge
vril het o. ilaam met. my til gaan na 'n ilOkker wediltryd.
Ja? -- On. het .. Onil wail toe mila til , on. was toe vri.nde(20)
geweea op die .tadiwtl. Ona het vryl1k met roe k ilil r g •• ela en toe
het hy my gevrao! ek nie vir hom aekere hulp van Illy vriende
kiln hy nie. Mailr hy het vir my gevril 011 vir hom .ekere. .. tuff"
te kry . 011 ay eie woorde t.e gebr uik .ekere "stuff in bulk" en
hy dui ililn met. ilY hande
!!2!:l ·stuff in bulk " ? - - Dit is net. 'n iliInduidlng Wilt nik. be
taken wat ek "euilk het . Edelagba ra, die t.sotai ' . hilt ,,"ph
deur 0.. ao a! en toe in te break in my winkel , en a. gevolg
dilarvan hilt ek getrek van waar ek g8WOOn het, en by dte Winkel
.el! gililn woon. DO)
AANKLAER I
1112.04 - 99 -
AANIlLAER: U en u gesin? -- En my gesin. En wat ook vercorsaak
het dat ek '1etrek het, is ek het toe 'n televisie stel gekoop
en my huis het nie elektrisiteit gehad nie .
Maar die winkel weI? -- Oit is so .
En u huis , het die huis toe lee'1 gestaan? -- Die huis het
toe 1eeg gestaan.
Goed vertel vir ons? -- Stanley het toe na ' n sekere tyd
my genader ..
HOF: 'n Sekere tyd nadat u getrek het? -- Na ek vertrek het ja.
HI' het my toe gevra of ons nie die huis, my huis, beskikbsar{lOl
kan stel vir gebI"u1k deuI" 51' karnen.de nie , "comrades".
AANKLAER: Het hI' ges~ watse "comrades" hI' van praat? -- Nee.
oUI ... as eintlik net 'n manier van praat .
Goed , wat het u verstaan onder die begrip van "comrades?"
Edelagbare, hy het op die stadium 'n vriend van my geword
en ek het verstaan dat dit sy manier is V<ln praat.
Nee.
Van sy vriende te praat? -- "loose talk".
Ja . -- As hy na sy masts ven;ys het.
Het U ooit van sy vrtende laat bly in die huis of nie?
!!9.E.;.. Met u dus die versoek van hom van die hand gewys? -- Ek
het dit van die hand gewys.
(20)
Met u hom 56 gea~? -- Wat ek eintlik 'les~ het, my ... oorde
san hanL "'''S "kyk daaI"die huh behoort nie aan my nie , dit be
hoort aan my eggenote."
AANKLAER: NOll goed, ek wil dan terll'l kom na u getuienis wat
II netnou 'lese het dat No. 1 vir u 'levI"a het of hy nie sekere
items by II kan kry nie, het gepraat van items in bulk "stllff
in bulk". -- Ben van die woorde wat ek ontlloll is hy het ge-
praat van "nitI"ate". (30)
"Nitrate" /
•
Kl2.07 - 100 -
"Nitrate" kan u nog .,ntql! .ndec woorde cnthou? -- Ek
dink ook alkollol.
Wa. <lit 'J""eel voce of "a die !leaprek oor die blyfplek
vir veien.:!e? AI \I nie kan ant.holl nle, moet \I net 80 af. -
Ek kan nl. 80 'loed cnthcu nle.
Nee goad. -- En ek ",11 nie deurlllo.a.r pun. "1 •.
"a. 11011 kOll Dna kCIII nou na ~H. 16de "un!". 1981. Dit
il 'n aekere be.ondere tag In veral Soweto, nie waar nle1 -
DH Is ao .
En d •• rdl. da", ...... \I 1n die winkel qewee.? -- Ja, .k •• 1(10)
al! Dna .... 1n di_ winkel gewe,u. all108w"l die .. inkel vir 'n lyd
toe ..... q.dut.nde die dag op die I6d ••
Ja. Ter....yl II in die winkel "' ••• het claar ie .... nd 4ange
kom? -- "", ,lit va. die hat namldds<j ':Iew-ee. en daar hel bale
men"" g"ko",
En op 'n "u.HWII wat qebeuT toe? -- Beakuldiqde 1 het ge-
,=. HOI': So u ..... _t die bale mena'" -- S ..... Del die bde mena ...
AANKLAER : Waa hy an •• n of waa i ..... nd 1n ay geaebkap? -- Ek
kan nie !!let al18 aekerhdd se of hy met iemand ander. gekOl:l(20)
het nie . want d ... r ".a haie mena •.
Nee goed. Ja en Wit gebellr toe verder, u a6 No.1 kont in
die winkel in? Hy khden Edehqbare ..... n van 1IIy kinder. het
' n aekere p.IIIUet .an "'1 oorh.nd1q. Ek b.t vir ' n pur _inute
_t beskllldi9de 1 9.pra.t.
Ona neelll dit d.n stap vir at.p, wat bet u met be.kuldi9de
No. gelela? -- Hy bet roy qed dat hy v.n die Regin. Mllndi
9.ko. b.t.
ilegina /'Illnd! 1a 'n kerkq.bou in Soweto. -- Ja. dit 1a aO.
J.? -- Hy het ock ~ldinq 9 .... k dat hy amper 9 •• rr.a-()O)
te.r I ..
Collection Number: AD2021 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012
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