trasncript rcr 02242011 mae beavers
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RC: So, without further ado, let me bring on our guest
here. Senator Beavers, hello?
MS. BEAVERS: Yes, how are you?
RC: Hey, great. Welcome to the show, and certainly
appreciate you giving up part of an evening here to be with us.
It was kind of a short introduction there, but let's see, I
believe you represent Senate District 17, is that correct, in
Tennessee?
MS. BEAVERS: I do.
RC: And did I – I'm sure I left out some things there.
MS. BEAVERS: Oh, that's all right. I represent eight
counties east of Nashville, and I've been in the state senate
for eight years, I was in the house for eight years, and on the
county commission for four years before that.
RC: Okay, great. So it sounds like you are quite an
experienced legislator, and I'm not that familiar with the
government of Tennessee, but it sounds like you do have a
bicameral legislature with a senate and a house of
representatives. Is that correct?
MS. BEAVERS: We do.
RC: Okay. And, as I said, I really appreciate you coming
on, and your assistant was quite pleasant to work with, too, to
line this up and very accommodating. I know you were in session
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last week and quite busy. So we were able to arrange it this
week.
Now, you are the author of two bills that would modify the
Tennessee code having to do with ballot access.
MS. BEAVERS: Right, and we're actually withdrawing that
first bill. We decided to expand that to all of the federal
offices. You know, this has really got me thinking about who
really checks to make sure people are qualified to run for
office, you know, any of the offices, and so we have expanded
the bill to include not only the people who are running for
president, but Congress and for the U.S. Senate.
RC: Okay, so the two bills I have printed off here, Senate
Bill 366, is that the one you're withdrawing?
MS. BEAVERS: Yes, that's the –
RC: Okay, and that only seemed to deal with the
presidency, the president, and then you're replacing that with
Senate Bill 1091, is that correct?
MS. BEAVERS: That's correct.
RC: Okay. Well, I guess I have several questions. One
is, you know, I think there should be a need for legislation –
or what do you hope to accomplish with this bill I guess would
be my first question? Why did you introduce it?
MS. BEAVERS: Well, it's to make sure that people who are
running for office are eligible to run for office. I think
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that, you know, there have been a lot of questions about our
President's eligibility, and it kind of got me thinking about,
you know, who's really out there checking? You know, it used to
be, you know, for instance, if you run for a race in your local
county that everybody knew everybody, and so you kind of knew
what age a person was and, you know, things like that, but now,
you know, we've grown so much that people just don't know each
other, and I think we need, especially at the federal levels,
you know, people checking to make sure that you're qualified to
run.
RC: Well, you just said there have been a lot of
questions. Yes, there does seem to be – there has been a small
group of people that have brought up questions about President
Obama, but I mean, do you really have any questions about him
being eligible, or any other –
MS. BEAVERS: Well, a lot of people do. I have no personal
knowledge about whether or not he was eligible or not, but there
have been a lot of questions about it, and I think it just begs
the question, you know, who's really checking on this.
RC: I won't get into your age –
MS. BEAVERS: I'm 63 years old.
RC: Okay, we're close to the same age. So you've been
around long enough to remember Ronald Reagan, I guess, and some
of the other presidents.
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MS. BEAVERS: Oh, of course.
RC: Okay, well, were you aware of the fact that Ronald
Reagan didn't have a birth certificate until he was over 30
years old?
MS. BEAVERS: No, I was not.
RC: Okay, well, we'll get into that a little later. So
but – so according to you, then, you have no questions about
Obama's eligibility yourself then.
MS. BEAVERS: Oh, I think people have raised questions
about it enough to make everybody wonder.
RC: But, you know, we've actually seen a copy of his
official Hawaiian birth certificate posted online. We've seen
high resolution photographs. He's the only president I've
actually ever seen a copy of his birth certificate before he was
President. Actually, there is the one posted – I've seen a
picture of Ronald Reagan's, you know, the one we were talking
about that was actually issued in 1942. So I probably have less
questions about his eligibility than any president, because I've
actually seen a picture of his birth certificate. I think
you've probably seen that also. Is that correct?
MS. BEAVERS: You know, I get emails all the time with
things in them, you know. I can't honestly tell you that I read
all of them, because I get so many emails, it's unbelievable.
So you know, I just know that the question has been out there.
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RC: But I mean there are lots of questions out there.
People question whether George Bush had something to do with,
you know, causing 9-11, but that was all silly and we knew that
was silly, right? I mean, there are conspiracy theories about
everything.
MS. BEAVERS: Well, when there are questions about things,
at least I'm in the position where we can clarify the law and
make sure that things are being done legally, and –
RC: Okay, so we're – I'm sorry, go ahead.
MS. BEAVERS: - and I think that that is the job of the
secretary of state to make sure that people who run for
president, who run for federal offices, are qualified to be on
the ballot.
RC: Well, and I don't think anyone would disagree with
that. I'm not sure that there aren't states out there that
don't require some sort of proof already, and we do know – and
we do know, I've read that the Obama campaign ordered a number
of birth certificates, and I'm not sure what states required
them.
MS. BEAVERS: Right.
RC: Apparently he satisfied all fifty states, and I
believe that most states do require that the parties file some
sort of certificate stating that the President was eligible.
I've seen a few of those posted online.
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MS. BEAVERS: Now, you're asking me to get into a lot of
things that I haven't really looked into yet.
RC: Well, I mean, you've put it in your bill. It says an
original long form birth certificate.
MS. BEAVERS: Well, we are following some of the bills that
have been filed in lots of other states, and you know how it is,
you file your bill and, you know, you prepare before you go to
committee.
RC: Well, that's one question I had. I've actually looked
at several of these bills that have been filed, and there seems
to be a lot of similarities. Were these actually submitted by
someone else or a central organization as a template?
MS. BEAVERS: I have no idea. I have no idea. That's what
we do lots of times. You know, we look at what other states are
filing, and if there's something that we think would be good,
you know, we'll pick up on it. You know, I filed the Firearms
Freedom Act in our state two years ago. I copied Montana's
bill, and we actually got ours passed before Montana did. We
unashamedly copied their bill. They knew what we were doing.
We've worked with them. And you know, a lot of states work
together.
I'm working on the health care compact right now, and we're
working with a number of other states to make sure we all have
the same language and working together on those bills.
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RC: Well, let's get back to this, your bill – and I've got
the wording right here – this is 1091 – says one of the
requirements that the party has to provide, or the candidate, is
– and let me find it here – an original – I think it says, yeah,
an original long form birth certificate, but you don't know what
that is.
MS. BEAVERS: I'm not sure exactly what long form means,
but it means an original certified copy of a birth certificate.
RC: Well, it says – here's the entire paragraph. It says
an original – to prove citizenship other – that's other than
natural born citizenship, wait a minute, let me back up here.
It says an original long form birth certificate showing the date
and place of birth, names of the hospital, and the attending
physician and signatures of witnesses and attendants.
MS. BEAVERS: And I don't know about you, but my birth
certificate has all of that on it, and every birth certificate –
RC: Well, that's a lot of older birth – but are you aware
that a lot of states now give what – only give the short form
birth certificate.
MS. BEAVERS: No, I was not. All of the – I only know
about Tennessee, and I was born in Alabama, and so I only know
what I have seen.
RC: Well, what if someone were not born in a hospital? It
wouldn't have an attending physician signature, so they wouldn't
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be eligible to run in Tennessee if this bill passes. Is that
correct?
MS. BEAVERS: But they would have a birth certificate.
RC: Well, sure, but your bill doesn't say birth
certificate. It says an original long form birth certificate
that includes date and place of birth, name of the hospital,
names of the hospital, and the attending physician and
signatures of the witnesses.
MS. BEAVERS: And that's normally what's on a long form
birth certificate.
RC: It used to be, but a lot of states – as a matter of
fact, the state of Hawaii where President Obama was born, for
people born since, I believe, around 2001, only give a
certificate like the one that's been posted for President Obama,
which gives the time of birth, the name of the parents, and the
place of birth.
So according to your bill, it doesn't sound like someone
born in Hawaii since – eventually someone born in a state that
only gives the short form would be eligible for presidency. Are
you aware of the part of the – there's a section of the
constitution called the full faith and credit clause? It's in
Article 4 Section 1.
MS. BEAVERS: Yes.
RC: Well, do you know what it says about state documents?
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MS. BEAVERS: You tell me.
RC: Well, I think it says that any state is required to
accept the documents from another state. So that basically
means that Tennessee has to accept a valid birth certificate
from Hawaii or Montana or any other state. It means that states
can't go adding requirements to these sort of documents. A
birth certificate proves the place of birth, and the short form
birth certificate does that.
MS. BEAVERS: I just have to take your word for it, because
I don't know any of that.
RC: Well, I think that's my interpretation of what the
constitution says. Let's get into –
MS. BEAVERS: I have no knowledge of short form birth
certificates, you know, in Hawaii.
RC: Okay, now, another part of this law, and I think this
is in 1091. I know it's in the other one. It says, this has to
do with citizenship, okay, it says the – oh, darn, naturally I'm
on the air here. What does your law say about dual citizenship?
MS. BEAVERS: I'm at home. I didn't bring a copy of the
bill home with me tonight.
RC: Okay, well, I've got it here. I found it. It's on
the –
MS. BEAVERS: I was told that you wanted to talk about my
health freedom act.
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the time said that he had to – I think at age 21 or 23, I'm not
sure – he would have had to have pledged allegiance to Great
Britain or to Kenya at the time. So it automatically expired is
what I'm saying, but there may in fact have been other
presidents who were dual citizens. I think there's been some
research done in that. It's very likely that, for instance –
your bill, by the way, doesn't address the vice presidency, does
it? I don't see any requirements for vice presidency. So they
don't have to meet this bill, or meet the requirements of this
bill?
MS. BEAVERS: Well, the vice president is usually chosen
later after you get somebody out of the primaries. I think this
would do, you know, with the presidents whoever is running in
all of the primaries, and then, of course, yeah, the vice
president should be checked out, too. That may be an amendment
we can put on our bill.
RC: Well, I would suggest that the vice president better
meet the same requirements as the president, because –
MS. BEAVERS: I agree.
RC: -- they might have to take – as a matter of fact, if
the president-elect dies or is incapable of taking office, it's
the vice president who is sworn in in January, I believe. I
think it's by the 20th amendment, or one of the amendments.
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So what about this idea of dual citizenship, though? I'm
just wondering where you got that, because I have never – as far
as I know, the constitution doesn't even mention dual
citizenship, but I've never read a single constitutional scholar
who even mentioned that that would somehow disqualify someone
from being president. Do you really want that in the bill? Is
that your thought?
MS. BEAVERS: Well, I'm sure that this will all be
discussed as we go through committee.
RC: Oh, I have no doubt that it will.
Another thing you might consider when you get in committee
and start talking about this bill is what about someone who is
adopted? You know, can an adopted person be president, because
in a lot of states that I'm aware of, an adopted person may not
even know who their real parents are. As a matter of fact,
those records are actually sealed if the child is adopted from
birth in many states. So does that mean someone who is adopted
couldn't be president?
MS. BEAVERS: I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean, I
would think by the time that you ran for president that you
would have probably, you know, found your – at least had a copy
of a birth certificate of some kind. You have to have birth
certificates for all kinds of things, like –
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RC: Well, yeah, you have to have a birth certificate to
get a passport usually, but, again, I'm not sure there's any
requirement that I know of where you'd need an original long
form birth certificate. That's what's bothering me is that you
have a law, a proposed law out there, that it appears that the
current president wouldn't meet, because he has - had dual
citizenship. He doesn't have it now, but he had dual British
and American citizenship from birth, and actually, Mitt Romney
may not be eligible under this bill. Are you aware of that?
MS. BEAVERS: No, I wasn't.
RC: Well, George Romney, his father, you probably
remember, ran for president, was born in Mexico. So Mexico
confers citizenship by jus soli, which is place of birth. So he
was born with dual citizenship, and it also passes down. So it
is very possible that Mitt Romney – I'm not saying that he does,
but unless George Romney somehow gave up his Mexican
citizenship, Mitt Romney could be a – have dual citizenship.
MS. BEAVERS: Obviously you've studied this whole thing.
RC: Well, yeah, I've put a lot of study into this, and it
bothers me that these bills are being produced, which apparently
have been supplied to people like you, and I'm not – I
understand there are a lot of bills that come through your
office, but I would hope that you would take this seriously that
when you propose a bill like this that you should certainly know
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what the consequences are, I would think. It sounds like
someone has sent you a template, and you've passed it on, and
certainly hope it gets polished up in committee, because I
certainly see some issues with this.
MS. BEAVERS: That's what committees are for.
RC: Well, again, I would think if you've put your name on
something that you would have a little better understanding. I
guess I have to express some disappointment that you seem to not
understand a lot about a bill you submitted which would in
effect make the current occupant of the White House ineligible
to run again in Tennessee.
MS. BEAVERS: First of all, I told you, you know, I haven't
really looked – had time to study it and read up on it. I have
probably 100 bills filed, and you study them before you go to
committee. I can assure you that before that bill is put on
notice I'll know everything about it. Like I said, I was led to
understand that you were going to talk about my health freedom
act, and just the eligibility bill was mentioned.
RC: Well, I certainly didn't mean to mislead your
assistant, and again, if we've really covered it, it sounds like
this bill needs a lot of changes. I think talking in
generalities, though, I just don't see the problem. To my
knowledge, we've never had an ineligible president. I think the
people do the vetting of – the people who are voting do the
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vetting. I think we know more about candidates for presidents
probably than we know our neighbors, because people are out
there digging from the first time a candidate becomes a serious
contender for the office. People want to know everything about
them. So that's one thing I don't understand is this meme that
I hear that, well, we didn't know anything about Obama before he
ran or any other candidate. I mean, we knew a lot about them.
We knew pretty much, we knew where he went to college, we knew
his life's history, we had his speeches. I just don't see this
as a problem that needs fixing.
Now I think the employment rate in your state is about 9.1
percent, isn't it, and it's pretty high all over the country.
To me that's something that's a problem that probably requires
attention, and I think health care's another one.
MS. BEAVERS: Well, I can assure you, I passed two health
care bills through committee this week. We are working on
reducing regulations on businesses in this state so that we're a
business-friendly state, and you know, you sound like you've
been reading the press releases from the Democrats down here
today.
RC: No, I just, when I see a bill like this that I think
has some ridiculous requirements in it, I just have to wonder
why it's being submitted.
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Hey, we'll talk about health care in a minute if you have
the time, but I do have a couple of people who'd like to talk to
you. Do you have a minute to take some questions here?
MS. BEAVERS: Well, I've just got another minute or two.
RC: Okay, is this Georgetown? I think I recognize the
number.
GT: Yes, hi.
RC: Say hello to Senator Beavers.
GT: Hello, Senator Beavers, how are you doing? I go by
the screenname GeorgetownJD, kind of obvious. Georgetown is my
alma mater.
But it's a special pleasure to meet you, because I am – I
was born in Tennessee. All my family was born in Tennessee, two
brothers, my mom, my dad, and all my grandparents going way
back, and so I take a particular interest in this bill that
we've been talking about, and so I had just a couple of
questions.
I'm actually – after I found out you were going to be a
guest on the show, I went to my safe document box and pulled out
some birth certificates, and I'm actually holding my long form
Tennessee birth certificate and also have the one for my father.
He was born in 1929 in Crockett County. It must have been a
rural birth, because the town is not filled in. I can tell you
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that they lived just outside of Friendship. I'm sure you know
right where that is. And I was born in Dyersburg.
MS. BEAVERS: Okay.
GT: At a hospital that doesn't even exist any more. I
guess I'm not going to be able to become famous, because they
won't have a place to put my plaque.
I think what's interesting is – have you had an opportunity
to actually look at a long form birth certificate issued by the
Department of Health in the state of Tennessee?
MS. BEAVERS: Yes, I have two children who were born in
Tennessee.
GT: Okay, well, I don't know what theirs look like, but I
can tell you that mine from 1955 and my father's from 1929 don't
meet the requirements of this bill, and so I'm kind of
wondering; here I am unquestionably a natural born citizen of
the United States, [inaudible] native of Tennessee, and now
living a couple states away from Tennessee, but just about every
relative I know still lives in West Tennessee, several in
Nashville and mostly in the Memphis and the Jackson area, and
it's a little disconcerting to me to take a look at this and
tell you that my birth certificate, that is signed and has a
certificate from the Department of Health Division of Vital
Statistics. I'm birth number xxx-xx-xxxxx, and my father was
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certificate of birth number xxx, and neither of us would be able
to meet the requirements under this bill.
For one thing, his does not have the name of the hospital.
Mine does, but there are not two witnesses on here. So I'm
wondering what would be your suggestion as to how I could go
about proving my natural born citizenship under this if this
were to be enacted?
MS. BEAVERS: Well, I will assure you I'll get hold of some
information on what was on the birth certificates back then, and
as I said, as this thing goes through committee, it will be
thoroughly vetted.
GT: Okay, and then I think that RC brought this point up,
but I'm also holding the birth certificates of a neighboring
state, the state of – the Commonwealth of Virginia, which meets
up with Tennessee up in your northeastern corner. Both of my
children were born in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and I have
the certificates of birth that were issued to them shortly after
they were born, and then later in order to get passports, we
went back and had new certifications of vital records sent to
us. And these have even less information. They are sealed. I
mean, they have the seal of the Commonwealth on them. They are
on security paper, and outside of the file number and the date
of birth and the place of birth and the names and ages of the
mom and dad, there is a – and the gender of the baby, that's all
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there is on the Commonwealth of Virginia's, the only birth
certificate that's ever been given out, even since the children
were born.
So that might be something I think that you might want to
talk to the committee. It might be helpful, I think, if you
were to perhaps get the committee staff to collect birth
certificates, the official birth certificates from a number of
states, and see what you can do to make the law comply in a way
that allows for the – to accommodate the various kind of vital
statistics that are certified by all 50 states as well as the
District of Columbia and the various territories of the United
States.
Another question that I have relates to the provision in
here, as well, for the 14-year residency requirement. You know,
the constitution requires that the president and, of course, the
vice president as well, be – it says in exact terms 14 years a
resident of the United States, but it doesn't say what 14 years
it is, so I'm kind of wondering why the affidavit, the sworn
statement, has to basically establish the candidate's residence
for the preceding 14 years. Is that kind of perhaps an
oversight in the drafting, because several of our presidents in
the past would not have met that requirement. I think it was –
was it Calvin Coolidge who actually lived abroad for the prior
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14 years before he ran for the presidency? Was it Hoover? It
wasn't Hoover; it was –
RC: Well, Georgetown, I have an even better example.
Dwight Eisenhower was somewhat occupied in the 14 years before
he ran for president and ended up spending, had a little four-
year vacation in Europe, I think. I don't think he would be
eligible under this bill, either.
GT: Yeah, another good example, yeah. I think Coolidge
had spent the previous 14 years actually in London, because
that's where his business interests were, but there was never a
question that some 14-year period, and I'm not sure it has to
even be consecutive 14 years, as long as the sum of all the
years that you've resided in the United States totals 14 years.
So I'm wondering if that's something that you'd be willing to
address in committee.
MS. BEAVERS: I'm sure we will.
RC: Hey, Georgetown –
GT: The only other observation I wanted to make is that,
you know, I think RC, you were talking about some of the bills
of the other states. This word for word exactly mirrors the
bill that was introduced in Arizona, and you know that that one
failed, because a number of the constitutional issues were
brought up in that committee, and then it was voted not to pass
that forward to the floor. So I'm just wondering if maybe, you
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know, the experience of some other states who've used identical
wording, it might be something that you'd want to consider, too,
the experience of some of the other legislatures and take a look
at some of the transcripts of the hearings to see what problems
they might have detected in this kind of language.
MS. BEAVERS: Right, I'm sure we'll be doing that.
GT: Well, thank you for letting me share my observations.