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NOVEMBER 27, 201

Transcripts [The links to these pages are apparently defunct]EWTN - Eternal Word Television Network, a Catholic Channel

1. Series Name: Mother Angelica LivePg. Name: Visionaries, Mystics and Stigmatists

Guest: Bob and Penny LordDate produced: November 1st 1995

Mother Angelica: I got a Notification from the HolySee* today and the Notification is from the Congregation for thDoctrine of the Faith. Some of you will be happy and some of you not happy, some of you very angry. But I must tell yo

what the Congregation said and from then on you have to take it into your heart and think about it huh?"Many bishops and priests, religious and lay people sought an authoritative judgement from the Congregation of Faith, onthe activities of Mrs.Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox who resides in Switzerland.

A calm attentive examination of the entire questions was undertaken by the Congregation to test the spirit.There are a number of basic elements that must be considered:The way in which these alleged revelations have occurredThe ambiguous language used, in speaking of the TrinityThat the Antichrist will prevail in the Church

That the glorious intervention which will be initiated on earth, an era of peace that looks very much like MillennialismA pan-Christian Community contrary to Catholic doctrineThe habitually sharing in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church by Vassula although she is not Catholic

Putting herself up as an ecclesiastic of jurisdiction over canonical norms and creating an ecumenical disorder"Now, thats been done, I feel you need to examine yourself. And we were talking this morning, a sister and I, why doeseverybody run to every visionary real and not real in the world?My personal opinion I am going to give it to you (laugh). I never held one back yet (laugh). My personal opinion is, that,we are not being fed the Truth, catechetically, theologically, philosophically or any other "ically" you can find.(umh) When people dont know the Truth, or theyre confused in regard to the Truth, meaning other things that arepresented to them, instead of Truth. When the Catechism taught is not authentic, is not really Catholic. When your churis devoid of anything devotional. Were people, we are human being and we feel and we are inspired by what we see,

were inspired by our senses. When all that is lacking and slowly whatever remains being taken away, the people are gointo go to real or imaginary visionaries, aesthetics, mystics and so forth.Why? (sigh) you dont get it in one place, youre going to go to another and that is one of the sad things in todays society

We, we need to be fed not with the imaginary, not with half Truth, or errors, we need to be fed with the Truth and the

beauty, the awesome beauty of Our Church, her spiritual and her Saints*http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrydn1.htmQ: Hello, Mother Angelica?M.A: Where are you from?

Q: I am from Maryland.M.A: And what is your question?

Q: If you could clear for me. I live in an area where a lot of people buy Vassulas books and her videos and I am veryconcerned because I also have some of her materials. Could you please clarify for me briefly the "letter" that you readearlier in your program?

M.A: Well, lets go, I am really going to get in the hot water, but Ive rather never minded the hot water. I find it, kind ocozy (laugh). You got the same as the Poem of the Man-God. The Poem of the Man-God has some awesome heresies in They are just awesome. I mean you look and you say huh?Now the Holy See has stated I think that if you read these books as absolute gospel Truth, they are not. But if youre

reading them, knowing there are many errors, but for devotion, theyre giving a kind a half way "okay".
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But youve got to know that there are great errors in those books. A lot of mails came in, and if you youre going tocomplain put a dollar with every complaint (laugh).The Notification here is for Vassula Ryden, is (umh), is important, very important; because of the things in

her writings, in the way it did happened, I say that, its a kind of automatic writing.We can take for example, I think there are many ways and many visionaries, in all that are not really authentic today. Bupeople who go to these places, they seem to receive a lot of graces, but it is not because of the Mystics

Penny Lord: Thats rightM.A: Or the Seers or the miracles, its because of their faith in God.

P: Thats rightM.A:And thats why when they took away from us, the real presence of the Eucharist, and they keep saying its only a

symbol; they take away the beauty of what the Church should have, because its the temple of the Lord. When taken awall that away, then we go at every time to Dick and Harry who had. Its like the man who said, who went to this man whohas a beautiful boat "The Lord told me this morning you are to give me the boat". The man said "yeah"? He said "yes", said "well when the Lord tells me, Ill give it to you" (laugh).So we, we have to be very careful, you know, the human going around, said "the Lord says this", "the Lord says that", etcMy employees do this, if they want something they say "Mother said" (laugh)P: Does it work?M.A: well it works only for a little while, until Mother finds out.So I think what is wrong here, I think what the Holy See is saying is the automatic writing, the Trinitarianits a verymixed up doctrine of the Trinity, the coming of the Anti-Christ millennialism, the thousand years of peace,(umh) this idea of the Church meaning everybody is in the same bracket and the same boat. Thats, thatsthe World Religion!Bob Lord: True

M.A: You see a mystic, a so called mystic could be the foundation of brain-washing all the people, and to thinking werefine, we have One God, One Lord and everybodys belief is the same!Ha, I do not believe in that God, I am not going to believe that word, because that is not true!See, there is One Lord, there is One Jesus, but you cant have One World Religion.

You cant put, you cant say all religions are alike, all religions are the same. They are not, they are not the same. And ycannot say what happens if the Anti-Christ comes and He comes performing all these miracles? And are you going to runto him?

B: They doM.A: See, are you going to run to the mystics wholl give you food and thats what Our Lord said "You just come to me

because I sent you, you really believe in Me".B: Thats right,M.A: See youve got to understand that thing like this! When the Holy See comes out and said there is a tremendous

amount of errors in these works. Well, personally I just wouldnt read them anymore. Why? Because you cant be a little "pregnant" (laugh), so you cant be a little bit in error, you see, because if you read one error after another, then you begto absorb the error.M.A: When you get this kind of error, dont be angry when the Church has the duty to tell you. P: Well you know Mother, what they remind me of, is we are only children. Right, we are only children.

Remember how I get upset when my mother and father told me "well, no you cant do that, that is not acceptable, youcant see that person!" But when we get a little older, boy, dont we pray for them, thank God for the gift of them. And whave a mother thats our Church, and we have a father, thats our Pope. And thats simple.B: We have in a Scripture passage that the Lord gave us just about this: "In the last day, anyone come to you say, lo heris the Christ, so there He is, dont believe it, for false Christ and false prophets will arise and show a great sign and wondeso as to lead us astray, if possible even the elect." Matthew 24, 25.M.A: We must be extremely careful, careful, careful, because the Devil, St. Peter said, goes around like a roaring lion,picking someone to devour. (Sigh) Read the Gospel; be sure its not inclusiveand be sure its not politically correct. All o

that is glorifying Satanism! Because it, too, desires one thing, to destroy the Word of God and making it so, ah changethe meaning.So please today, (sigh) read the Gospel, go to a legitimate holy Mass, say your rosary, cling to the Church.

Not the American church, or the German church, or the English church, there is One Church and One universal Church,cling to it, youll never have another worry. I have never been confused. No Catholic should ever be confused, if you knothe Truth, you know who is right and who is wrong.Q: you just reiterate from your pamphlet there as to what the Truth really is.P: Right, you know, I think that is one of the bigger problem I have of these "alleged visionaries"

If anything, they are harming any form of Ecumenism because these Protestants do not understand, the ambiguous, thiconfusion that these "alleged visionaries" that is not the teaching of the Church.B: We believe that if you stay within the realm of the Church. What the Church accepts and rejects, what the Church

rejects, therell be no confusion, no ambiguity. Its only when we start running all over the place to "alleged visionaries"and "alleged mystics".


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2. Series Name: Mother Angelica LivePg. Name: Dish Network/Visionaries

Guest: Fr. Mitch PacwaDate programmed: December 12, 1995

Mother Angelica: Now not too long ago, Bob and Penny Lord were with us and I read to you a Document from the HolySee aboutVassula, the seer that is not approved. And I myself mentioned the Poem of the Man-God. Now weve go

all kind of phone calls, letters, some inquiring because they want the truth, some very angry but we have to give the TrutSee your soul and your future is at stake. We are here to give you the Truth. You dont have to accept it, but its our job

tell you if there is a danger anywhere.So I want to introduce you a good friend, a mutual friend, yours and mine, Fr. Mitch Pacwa. Were going to discuss thesituation and were open for phone calls. Lets us welcome Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

Fr.: Thank you Mother. Its so good to be here.M.A: Okay Fr., there are an enormous amount of seers around. And today with a good example, I think of the simplicityof Our Lady and in getting appearing in such a simple Motherly way through Juan Diego. And even when his uncle wassick, and he went to get, the you know, the priest for him, he was kind [?] Our Lady, She caught up with him.Tell us about a "real vision".Fr.: One of the issues of the "real vision" is that, they have an effect on a number of different levels. And we have to paattention through them, and if God,M.A: Well what level?Fr.: For instance, there is the effect that a vision had on the person who is the visionary. Juan Diego now is blessed.Bernadette is a Saint. Now we look at how it changed their lives.

M.A: If you would say the effect on both Seers and Saints?Fr.: Sure. Thats when there is vision we see at least 3 different types of effects. One is the Seer, visionary has a growthof holiness, like St. Bernadette, Juan Diego now blessed and many others through the centuries who became holierpersonally.Secondly you also see, and some of this the Church has to look at right away, is the "messages of the vision", true? Is it keeping with what we know from Scripture and the teaching of the Church? And we judge the vision by the norm of theChurch and the Bible. And that the Lord does regularly reveal to us, He will not contradict with new visions, newrevelations, they go against the Bible or the teaching of the Council.The third level is the fruits that we look for, the effect and this one that we cant go through necessarily first. We have to

wait and see, and know what that fruit is in the long term.For instance, so many time people would have an immediate conversion, a change right away and then down the line, fal

away. Or a movement can look good at the start and then later on, not be so good.A classic example of how good fruit is showing is what happened at Guadalupe. That 30 some millions people becameCatholics as a result, through the centuries now 400 years.

People have had tremendous conversions and a constant call to love the Blessed Mother and to love Christ. Thats goodfruit in the long run.M.A: But the Seer is almost forgotten at that point

Fr.: Right, right. Now the same thing has to apply to any other vision. Now people can say that there is good fruit, and often that is one of my concerns; people say this vision is having good fruits because people are converting and so on. Bwe all have to ask the question to what are they converting?Are they converting to the True faith? Are they converting to attraction to the Visionary? Are they converting to attractioto a movement? Or is it True faith in Christ?Know these, and the Church has an obligation to discern. Discernment is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit according to 1Corinthians, chapter12. And the main job of discernment comes from the Church, not from the Visionaries. Visionaries donot discern their own visions ultimately. They have to, thats what St. Paul said, is not up to the prophets themselves or

herself. Leave it to the Church decision, based on its own norm of the Magisterium, that is the deposit of faith we havereceived in the Scripture in tradition. So these are some of the things we have to pay attention to.

And in regard to someone like Vassula Ryden and Maria Valtorta, the Church has given consistent andregular decisions. In the case of Valtorta and recently for Vassula, saying that there are problems in whatthey have written. And that their claims to be directly from Christ; in case of both ladies, cannot besubstantiated by the Church. Now you see in both, Vassula claims when she writes Christ moves her handand in some way or other He is the author of these books that shed written. And Valtorta called herself the"secretary" of Jesus and Mary, and that she is called "little John", and she ascribed exactly what they told

her. Now, that is a very heavy claim! A very heavy claim!Now the Church never even said that is exactly how the Bible was written. The Church hadnt, you know, we did never sathe Holy Spirit grabbed hold of the hand and wrote, know its inspirational. How God inspires the Church hasnt made

specific. We just know that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Scripture and the primary author, and the secondary thehuman author. How and exactly it happened, the Evangelists didnt tell us, the other, St. Paul; its up to God and them.


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These two said that they are actually "secretaries" writing in the case of Valtorta, writing in the case of Vassula. Given thwe have to submit what they say to the norm of the Church, okay? And the Church said "No" in both cases.And with that, I think, comes a certain amount of obedience that we have to submit to. Even if we like them. Whether w

like them or not is really irrelevant because I get concerned about people who said that "well, I find it helpful to me so I agoing to use it". That is just as disobedient as the person who say "well I feel like having a certain amount of dancing atthe altar." The Church doesnt approve it, but I do, so I am going to do that. Or I feel like having reading from Jablio

Shoblank (?) instead of reading the Bible, because I find it meaningful. We dont make those decisions about what we doin the liturgy and of what we believe, just on personal opinion.

M.A: What are some of the errors father, I mean the people they who write to us, they are heated about it.Fr.: Absolutely they did the same thing to me

M.A: And even when you give some of these, but I think there are very serious errors in both.Fr.: In the Maria Valtorta books, the errors I think are not as serious as in Vassula. But seriousnonetheless (pertaining to Valtorta)With Vassula there is another kind of problem. I got some quotes. Listen to this quote: "I love you Fatherbeyond words" and then the Father responds: "I love you daughter my suffering I will make you feel whenMy crucifixion come nearer I will come to you leaving my nail crown thorns I will leave you My cross sharinwith me my suffering."This is supposed to be the Father; the Father did not die on the cross. God the Son became Incarnated. Hedied on the cross. Now there is an old heresy called "patripassianism" that means the Father suffered andwas condemned, is an error. Now maybe it doesnt mean God the Father here, but its very unclear andthats what the Vatican has said about in the LOsservatore Romano. Some of the things she said are veryunclear. They are very unclear. This is an example of what is unclear, do you mean the Father is suffering o

you call Jesus the Father? Now that is not good either

M.A: No,Fr.: Now as a matter of fact there are a number of other things. About Jesus, where He says for instance, "am the Spirit of Truth who speaks", wait a minute, I thought that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, that iwhat Jesus called Him in the Gospel of St. John. That is in Volume 2 page 10, "I am the Spirit of love" all

right, and then here Jesus says "anyone who rejects the work of My Holy Spirit is rejecting Me for the HolySpirit and I are One and the same." Now thats not quite right! That is not right at all! Jesus goes on to say"remember that I am Spirit and all that I have I share with you, your spirit, you and I are One linking the

union of love". What does she mean Jesus, the Spirit? You know, I dont know, its vague to me andconfusing because Jesus is God Incarnated and He still has a body, the glorified the resurrected body since

His resurrection from the dead, but He still has a body. Hes not Spirit, only Spirit now. He has a spirit, Hehas a human spirit, of course He is God, He is Spirit and divine, but its not clear.

And then, there are, this is some of the oddest things where she said in Volume 3 page 98 "I am the Holy

Trinity all in One. I am the Spirit of grace". Jesus is not the Holy Spirit all in One, Jesus is the second persoof the Holy Trinity. There are other places where she talked about the Father where Jesus said that "theFather and I are One and the same". That is not correct! First of all, St. John Gospel chapter 14 said "TheFather and I are Oneand the Father, for instance, St. A (?) made a very important comment on what Jesussaid "the Father and I are One, One in being". Notice that Jesus doesnt say in the Gospel "the Father and I

are One and the same" because if He said "the Father and I are One and the same" that would mean He isthe Father, but Jesus in the books by Vassula say "know the Father and I am One and the same". That isexactly what had been rejected by the Fathers, by Pope Damasus the 1st, whose feast we just celebrated acouple of days ago (early December) and also by the Council, there is the Council of Florence. Its because that the incorrect formula about the Trinity that the Church has problem with Vassula. Ive written about thisa number of places. I did serious articles on it, for a Catholic print circle about 2 or 3 years ago. Saying all, 2 years ago.Can I tell you a story about what happened with that?M.A: Yeah, yeah,

Fr.: What happened was I wrote all this down. I sent a copy to Vassulas spiritual director by fax. And a fedays later, in May, a couple of years ago, I got a fax back saying that I am going to be in big trouble. Vassutalked to God the Father for 7 hours about this, and something bad is going to happen to me and she is goin

to make it known and every one is going to blame me. And at the end, the last line of the letter said "you adestined for bigger and better things", dont publish this letter, and youll get them.M.A: Oh? What is that, a fortune-teller?Fr.: No, it sounds like the Mafia to me, (laugh) but then I am from Chicago, I dont know. But you know, it, and I said Icant stop publishing because of those words.

M.A: If you were wrong, it wouldnt take the Father 7 hours to tell her.Fr.: No, its right, exactly. And I submit my article to the censors of the Father Jesuit, The Jesuit censor for them to lookat. So, I published it and then, sometimes after that, I dont know who it was, who thought of it, but they sent a letter to

my father general and they said, accusing me of two things: besides being all wrong, I dont understand her.


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I sent a letter, I asked her to clarify, because that what I said in the letter clarify the things or I will publish it. Because Iam concerned about the errors here or maybe they are not errors, I wanted to know, giving an explanationM.A: Father, please, dont you fall for itFr.: Well, I want to see what she meant. You know, give her a chance, thats in charity, we should do that. But what

they said is I never contacted them before I published the articles. And that I was trying to destroy theOrthodox and Catholic Unity. And that is the opposite. As a matter of fact, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in Northand South America asked for a copy of this because they were thinking about condemning her. And I did not send it to

them. I am sure I could get permission from the Father General. And so, that is a sure step. I sent him a fax. And the fadidnt have a date on it but the fax machine did date it. And I sent a letter to them, four months in advance. And so they

werent corrected. I had sent them and I sent them a copy to let them, you know, to let them express their objection. Anthey chose not to. And at least not to explain to my satisfaction, and so I would not stop, one of the thing Our Lord said

that anybody is called to be a shepherd in the Church, is that you cant run away from wolves and that you just dont do itfor hire. You make sure to the best of your ability that the sheep are going to be fed well and for the Truth.M.A: Right,Fr.: And thats my role and I would, I had to write it. Father General, of course, exonerated me. And when CardinalRatzinger, the thing from Cardinal Ratzinger came out, there is a definitely the same concern as I have. For instance,when she goes to communion. Not only in the Catholic and the Orthodox Church but the EpiscopalianChurch too. See, she receives communion in all three according to her own books. Now thats not right!M.A: No,Fr.: No, there are certain situations in which the Orthodox can receive communion with us because they share the samefaith. But not the Episcopalian, we dont have an agreement on the Eucharist with them. But we do with the Orthodox. that is not quite right to do that. And so I objected that to the Vatican, and the same thing about the Christology and theconfusion of the Trinity, the exactly same issue. We have to know what the New Testament teaches about Christ. Andthats what we should expect from any visionaries. Jesus will not contradict Himself. He will not undo what is written in

the Gospels. And therefore, we have to have either her explaining away the confusions, or submit totally, and this is whatshe should do, I think and for all of us not just, Vassula or Valtorta, I, you, all of us must submit to what the Truth havebeen revealed by Christ through His Church.M.A: I think the reason for all this is father; people are starving, starving for the Truth and for spirituality.

Fr.: yes, yes,M.A: And they get all this mumbo jumbo, all this, the liberals give everywhere. I think that what make people rush tothese places because they dont know.

Fr.: They hear this stuff and then they say well, now, its up to us to talk, and this is one of the things I recommend thasomebody like Valtorta or Vassula would want a personal relationship with Christ. They want to know Christ, they want to

love Christ, they want to devote their hearts, their love. Vassula speaks beautifully well, not always correctly but shespeaks, she desires to love the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Great, I love that too, thatsgood. We should seek a personal relationship with Christ.

M.A: See we have to have the Truth with all of thatFr.: Exactly, exactly. Thats the thing, the desire for a personal union and a personal love is important. But like any loveyou love your children strongly and personally, but you let them do whatever they want as deep as you love, they still comup spoiled. And if you love Jesus with all the warmth and sometimes, gosh, and all this, but if it is not the real Jesus,youre asking for trouble, spiritually.

M.A: Yeah,Fr.: We have to know the real Jesus Christ not some imitation, not something that falls short of the real Jesus Christ.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=336580&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu

Q: I am most confused. Will somebody please tell us, does the statement made by the [Congregation for the] Doctrine of

the Faith on Mrs. Vassula Ryden still stand. If so why is it being ignored? Why are we being told that the statementssupposedly made by the Vatican are really false? The True Life in God tell us that the Holy Father has blessed Vassula andher writings. Does this mean we have now to believe in Mrs. Ryden and can promote her in our Church!!!!! - J.C.SCOTTKate, 11/16/2001

A: On May 10, 1994, Edward Idris Cardinal Cassidy, Head of the Sacred Congregation for the Promotion of Christian Unity

in Rome [Pontificium Consulium Ad Christianorum Unitatem Fovendam] wrote regarding Vassula:
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"No one should take seriously any claim on the part of this lady to have an ecumenical mission I am amazed that all ovethe world our Church authorities are opening their doors to this lady The question of a member of an Orthodox Churchbeing admitted to Communion in our Church is governed by Canon Law"

He went on to say that the "competent Dicastery for matters concerning private revelations is the Congregation for theDoctrine of the Faith, I am sending on to that office a copy of your letter and of the documentation forwarded therewith."This is the statement of:

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has received various questions about the value and authority of its

Notification of 6 October 1995, published in (LOsservatore Romano on Monday/Tuesday, 23/24 October 1995, p.12),regarding the writings and messages of Mrs. Vassula Ryden attributed to alleged revelations and disseminated in Catholic

circles throughout the world.In this regard, the Congregation wishes to state:The Notification addressed to the Pastors and faithful of the Catholic Church retains all its force. It was approved by thecompetent authorities and will be published in Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the official organ of the Holy See, with the signaturof the Prefect and the Secretary of the Congregation.Regarding the reports circulated by some news media concerning a restrictive interpretation of this Notification, given byHis Eminence the Cardinal Prefect in a private conversation with a group of people to whom he granted an audience inGuadalajara, Mexico, on 10 May 1996, the same Cardinal Prefect wishes to state: as he said, the faithful are not to regardthe messages of Vassula Ryden as divine revelations, but only as her personal meditations; these meditations, as theNotification explained, include, along with positive aspects, elements that are negative in the light of Catholic doctrine;therefore, Pastors and the faithful are asked to exercise serious spiritual discernment in this matter and to preserve thepurity of the faith, morals and spiritual life, not be relying on alleged revelations but by following the revealed Word of Goand the directives ofthe Churchs Magisterium.

These words stand on their own weight. The Church has never issued a statement rescinding any of the above content.Those who ignore the statement do so for some reason other than proper observance to the legitimate authority in theChurch. -Bill Bilton, 11/16/2001

SeeVASSULA RYDEN-PROBLEMS WITH ROME BUT WELCOME IN INDIAhttp://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-PROBLEMS_WITH_ROME_BUT_WELCOME_IN_INDIA.doc

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VASSULA RYDEN-FR MITCH PACWAhttp://ephesians-511.net/docs/VASSULA_RYDEN-FR_MITCH_PACWA.doc

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