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VOLUME 1.!.

(Pages 178 - 233)

CASE NO. SHD.1L6~ .

mHE ST .T~ versus EPHRAIM !.t!,BUii~nd Others)

Content.: Htness Herbert MatiHo . ----- Chief Warden Va.n StA en .

Jacob Butcher Knaou •

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178. ACCUSED No . 3.

SAAK HER VAT OP 6 JANUARIE 1966.

VERSKYNING SOOS VOORHEEN.

AANKLAER A~N HOF, Edelagbare, lykbaar is hier weer n aan­

soek voor die Hof .

ACCUSED No . 3: In due respect to this Court, Your Worship,

I have to lodge a complaint, with the permission of the

Court . Yesterday I cross-examined the Commanding Officer

in relation to the administration of the Prison and the man­

ner of conduct as I am a convict in tho very same station .

Your Worship, I even went further in my cross - examination

about my complaint I have lodged that I had been clapped by

the Warder who escorts me to this Court daily and he even

told the Court, in answering my question, that he was going

to record the complaint . Now, most unfortunately this day

of today he has told me that he is going to char~e me for

that and he is going to punish me for that because I should

not have complained about that and I should not have cross­

questioned him yesterday too . I feel that if I continue

with this case under the present pressure under the circum­

stances, under which I am embarrassing and hampering my

defence, I withdral; and this casc o Alternatively, as I am

hampered in this case, I apply to Your Worship that I should

at least be transferred to other place rather than Baviaans­

poort .

PROSECUTOR: Your Worship, I know nothing about the matter.

Further, I submit that this is a question for the gaol

authorities, not for this Court to decide upon .

ACCUSED No . 3: In addition to that, even this morning he

uttered the word that even if I do like to, I can tell the

Ma~istrate about that .

COURT, That is not a matter which concerns this trial .

Does a Magistrate visit the gaol? -- - No, Sir .

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ACCUSED No . 3 .

PROSECUTOR' Your Worship, I believe there are Prison

inspectors who visit the gaol regularly .

COURT: You see, this is not a matter which concerns this

case. I take it that there are Inspectors or Magistrates

who visit the gaol and you must louge your complaint to them.

ACCUSED No , 3: Ever since I w~s put tnto aol in 1963, never

yet a Magistrate visited Baviaanspoort, neither en inspector .

llQE: Kan u net vir die Hof S8 wie die tronk besoek?

HOOFBEWAARDER: Die Gevan enisse word deur inspokteure wet

aangestel is dGur die Kommlssaris van Gevangenis - die voer

inspeksies uit op die Gevan~enisse . Daar is verskeie inspe~­

sies te Baviaanspoort van 1963 af waargeneem deur sulke

Inspokteure .

HOF: Vind die inspeksies dikwels plaas of nie? --_ Dit

vind op verskillende geleenthede plaas, net soos die Kommis­

saris dit mag goed dink •

Wanneer sal die volgende besoek plaasvind, weet u?

--- Ek het geen idee nio.

BESKULDIGDE 13 kla dat die beampte wat langs die Aanklaer

sit, nou iets daer gefluister het .

HOF: So vir die beskuldigde No . 13 dat hy moet sit . Die

Hof neem aan dit is die Ondersoekbeampte en hy is geregtig

om da,r te sit en die Staatsaanklaer te adviseer .

BESKULDIGDE 13: Dit is in verband met die soak, ja, maar

dit is nou iets anders .

HOF AAN AANKLAER: Mnr . die Aanklaer, sal u die Gevangenis­

oworhede in kennis stel dat beskuldigde No . 3 n klagte het?

Dat oio Tronkowerhede dit kan ondersoek.

AANKLAER: Ek sal dit doen, Edela bare.

HOF AAN BESKULDIGDE No . 3. The St.te Prosecutor will communi­

cate with the gaol authorities in regard to your complaint.

ACCUSED NQ . 3: Yesterday when I complained to the Commanding

Officer, concerning the case, he told me that I must go and

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1 O. ACCUSE;) -. 0. 3.

make my complaint with the Magi strate, he has got nothinrr

to do with me. I did not complain to you about that yester­

day , I only cross - questioned him concerning what I have com­

plained about yesterday. He told me that I was being cl~"pet

in Court. This is concerning this case and as regards this

I have reached my own conclusion, with all my respect, to

withdraw my cross-examinat ion to the state witnesses, I have

nothing to say at this stage be cause I am embarrassed .

COURT, As the Court said, the State Prose cutor will com-

municate with the gaol authorities . Not with the Institu­

tion where you are beinp held, and investigations will be

made in regard to your complaint. --- With all my respect,

Your Worship.

ACCUSED No . :i I also have a complaint which I want to

lodge before the Court . Before we commencod with the case

yesterday, the Commanding Officer was also present here to

come and give evidence as to how we are being treated in

paol o It 1s true, the Court gave us opportunity to cross ­

examine him on his evidence, and our cross-cxaminp.tlon

might have annoyed the Commandinp Officer bec,use he pot

the impression that we think we are better persons and he

says that he ' ll treat us whatever we can do in gaol .

COURT, When did he say that? --- He s,id it this morning .

H, said we can come and tell that to the Court. I also

feel that it is my duty to convey to the Court, because as

long as I am still in that Prison I feel th"t I cannot con­

tinue with the case •

Yes, your complaint as well as the complaint of

Accused No . 3 will be conveyed by the State Prosecutor to

the gaol authorities . --- I understand that . The complaint

will be convoyed to the them but immediately he leaves then

we are ill-treated.

The case will continue. --- The others will

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l 77

1~1 . ACCTTSED ,:0 . 5.

cont i nue with the case . There is nothing that I can con­

tinue with this case at present .

The Court just wantsto point out to you end to

.\ccused tlo .3 that you have got all the opportunity in the

world t o conduct your case and to cross-oxamine the ,·ritn&5SeS

and if you do not cross -examine the witnessos, you do it at

your own riBl-: . --- I understand that the Court gi'los us •

opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses , but tho cross­

oxami nation hurt the gaol authorit i es.

The c,se will now continue, and will you sit down .

--------------HERBERT MATISO v . o .e .

ONDERVRAGING DEUR AANKLAER (ver1)'ol ): By die afsluiting

gister hot jy gese dat jy st . 8 eslang het, is dit korrek?

--- Ja.

Wat het beskuldigde No . 1 nog verdor ann jou gese? • Daarna het hy vir my gese ons sal nou rus en hy sr.l dio

• menso wat sy kcnnisse is, aan my S6 .

Hot hy toe by daardie geleenthoid ~ese \lie sy ke'1

nlsse 1s? .Ta . Hy het my gevra of ok vir John Kumalo ,

ken . Toe sa ek ja, ek ken hom van bui ta .

Het hy gevra of jy nog iemand ken? Py het ':ly

evra of ek vir Sepo Makapel? ken, toe sa ek ja, ek ken hom \

ook van buite .

Het jy nog name genoeg wie jy geken hot? --- Ja,

maar die meoste van hulle het ek nou ver eot want dit is

nou n eruime tyd terug .

Het jy ook aangesluit by di e P.A. C. ? --- Ju, el,

het my ingesweer .

Jou naam ingegee of w,t bedool jy daarmoe? __ _

Jo , ek het my n'3m ingegee .

Nou, toe jy jou naam ingegee het, het jy dlt by

beskuldi do No . 1 ingegee of by wie? --- By beskuldlgde No . 1.

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1 2 . HERBERT .

Wat het beskuld i gde No . 1 gomaak toe jy jou naam

ingegee het?

op geskryf .

Hy het sy papiere uitgehaal en my naam da.r-

As jy 59 I papiere I, was di t l os velIe p"piere of

was dit 'n boek of wat was dit? --- Ott w"s los papiero ,,-at

hy in'n boek gehad het.

Waar het hy dit uitgehaal? --- Hy het 'n bock oop­

gernaak en die papi ere het uit die boek uitgekom.

Waar het hy die boek v andaan ~oha3l? - -- Hy het

dit in 5y hand gehou, hy het dit nie vcrsteek ni e .

Ja, maar het hy die boek in sy hand ehad toe hy

met jou gepraat hat of was die boek arens ~mders? --_ !1y

het die boek voor hom ehad, die boek was in sy besit -ewees .

Wnar het di e gesprek plaasgevind? --- By sel No.

E.3.

Zungu en Winter . - -W,s die name net so cskrywe soos jy nit " n 5y

Edelggbare anocm hat of wos die vanna oak by eskrywe? __ _

Die vanna W8.S oak by ("'9 skr;rwe .

Kan jy die vanne onthou?

Wat >!as Manyitsi se van?

onthou nie .

Ja .

5y van ken ek nie

Mnnyitsi, is dit sy regte naam of is dit sy by­

naam waarby hy genoem word? - -- Dit is 'n byn~am, ek moen sy

regte naam 1s John maar ek weet nie wat die van is nle.

En Winte~ hat jy sy van gesien op die papier?

Ja .

Kan jy onthou wat dit was? - - - 5y volle n,am is

5ekumbuso Phomahleni .

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1 3. HERBERT .

Beteken dit:om by di e huis u i t te gaan? In .

Het jy eni gi ets get eken , of het jy maar net jou

naam i nge ge e? Ek het ne t my naom i ngegee .

Wi e was by t oe jy j ou nanm aan be skul di gde

ge aa hat en hy dit neergeskryf hat ? -- - Jacob Kn(lO]]

John Kumal o .

Nadat besku l di gde No. 1 nOll jell naam neergeskr ywe

het, het hy enig i ets ve r der geSe of het die gcsprok da,rby

beoindi g? - -- Oi t wos ampte r dio e i ndo van di e yespr ek, • maar toe het hy ~an my gese : ,Nou i s jy n l i d van di e

P. A. C. en jy moeni e meer menso pI a nie . As y tab~ wil

ho moet jy no Scpo "aan wat in sel No . R. 1 sleap, daar sal

jy alles kry wat jy nod i g het, by hom .' Oit was toe 01 en

ens hot ui tmekan r ee aan .

ROF: Vir wie moet hy gaan vr a? -- - Vir Sepo H~apela .

AANKLAER: Op watter dag vnn di e week het hi erd i e gebeure

plaasgevi nd, kan jy onthou? ._-- Ek meen di t was n Satorda - -

want dl t was gedurende n nawook .

Is jy ooit i ngeswee r as n lid van di e P.A . C.? -- -

Ek het ~y naam ingegee en toe het hy vi r my • ese daor is

ni e nou tyd am vir my di nge te leer ni e, di e tyd i s naby .

HOF' Ja , maar die vraag is' is jy ingesweer? - - - Ja .

AANKLAER: I s jy daardis se l fde dog in.esweer of bv n Inter

geleenthe i d? --- Oi eselfde dag .

Wi e het jou ingesweer ? --- Bcskul di gde No . 1.

Hoe het hy jou ingesweer ? - - - Hy het gese ek moet

my hand opli g, dat ek betr ouban r sal weos i n d i e or gani sas i

Wat te r or gani sas i o? --- Di e P. A. C. En dat ek

vir ~ l le ~oeilikhede wet sel ontstaan, sel stoan.

En as gevolg daarvan het jy di e eed geneee of wat

het jy e~aik? --- Ek het die eed geneem.

Het jy seker e woorde ui tgespreek toe jy d i e eed

eneem het, of wat het gebe ur ? --- Ek het geen ander woor de

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184. HERBERT.

geuiter nie, behalwe dat ek vir hom gesa het:dit is goed, ek

gee my in by jou.

die

Ja .

Watter hand het jy apgesteak? --- Die regter hand .

Is julIe toe ui tmekaar uit ? --- Ja .

Na daardie dag toe jy' nou ingesweer is as lid van

P.A . C. , het jy beSkUldigdC U weer raakgeloop? ---

Op watter dag was dit nou, nadat jy ingesweer is?

--- Dit was etlike dae later .

Waar het jy hom too r.akgeleop? -_ .. In die sel.

Watter sel? ~.

Waar julI e ssam bly het? - -- Ja . -Wat het by daardie geleentheid plaa gevind? -- ­

Hy het my toe ge se dat die hele toe kamp is lede van hulle e::: '5::...

organlsasie .

Wattor organisasie? Dio P . A. C. Dit was nie n

vergedering daar nie, ons het net gesels .

Was dit net julle twee wat danr gewecs het of "as

dear snder persone ook teenwoordig ? - - - ~lo en Jac3P

Knaou was teenwQord l g . -- Wat het julIe nog verder gesels? --- Ek hat hom

toe gevra : , hoe ken jy al die mensa want cns korn nie 1n

het hy my gese det hy n aanraklng met hulle nie?'rOe

belangrike lid by daardie men-s-e-h~e~t~,~b~y~d~i~e--n-a-a=m-v-a-.n---SOtomon ;unaJ . Die Solomon Nkuna, is hy die getuie "at hier eer-

ste getuienis afgola het? - -- Ja •

Ja? - -- Ek het hom toe gevre hoe is dit dat hy met

hom in eanraking kom want hy is n man wat in die toe kemp is.

Hy het toe gese die waentjie wat kos na daardie plek tooneem

word deur mense van hierdie plek gestoot en dit is hulle wet

brlewe na die snder plek tee neeD

Na Solomon Nkuna se plek? --- Ja, hy het • ese

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HERBERT.

hulla necm briawe soontoe an bring ook briawe tarug .

Hat julIe oor eni i ets vardar gasels? - -- Die

klokk1e hat galui en toe het on. gaan slaap .

By ~ l atar galaentha i d, hot julIo woer gesprckkc

oor dia P. A. C. gehad? --- Ja , ~ paar moandc later . -kci -Jy an wi e het too die gesprak ehad? - - - Oit wos

gedurende 1963 .

Knn jy onthou watter moand van 1963 dit wos? --­

Ja, dit was aan die begin van die jaar .

Was jy en No . 1 nog saam in een sel of was julle in

aparte opsluitplekke daardie tyd? Ons was uitmek~ar ~ewees

vol~ens ons werke, want ek was In die werkswinkel ewees on

• ons hoof wet daar in die werkswinkel gawees het, het gese

ons w~t daar werk moet eenkant slaap .

In wotter sel het jy toe geslaap donrdie tyd? __ _

In A. 1 • -- • En beskuldigde rI0 . 1, kan jy sa in watter sal hy

1S9S1RllP hot? Is dit nou 126J?

In dia begin van 1963 . - -- Hy het in C. 3 geslnep.

Hou hat julIe toe met mekaar in ponrnkin" akorn?

--- Oit was ~ Woensdag in dia a termlddag, want dia n~ter ­

middoe ~at die spanne nie eewerk nle .

Jo, en waar hat jullo mekanr toe ontrnoet? - -- Ons

het naby die badkamers ontmoet .

WnttQr gesprek het dear toe tussen jOll en beskul­

digde No . 1 plaa.gavind? - -- oy hot my gase om na C. 2 toe te

gaan en varder gosels . Party mense Is alraeds door, ons

ga~n da~r vergnder .

Het jy toe sy instruksie uitgevoor daur na sel

C. 2 te aan? - - - Ja .

Toe jy ln sel C. 2 kom, wie wns toa 01 almal daar?

--- Ole sal was vol .

Kan jy n~e noem Vln persona wat ja~r gewees hat?

186. HERlBRT.

--- Dnar was bale mense gewees , maar ok kan ne t di e paar

noem wat ek kan onthou.

Ja , ~s seblle f, noem hulle . -- - Oit w~s !ncob Knaou ,

Geor r.o Tibane , ManYitsi, Ja cob 110gomo. Ru ben Mogomong . Sepo ---- - - -11akapel a, ~lo, J,:seph Z':!)gu en ok, " sook beskul d i pdo -No . 1 . Die ander het ek ver geot , di e moe s to . -- Wat het t oe daar i n C. 2 plaas evind? --- Hy het

aan cns ge se: ,Man, dl t is nou l ank d~t ons sukkel . I Dns

hot hom t oe eVTa : ,Di nk jy di t sal nou ro~kom? ' Toe sa hy

j a . Hy het gesa di e tyd i s naby, bi nnekor t .

Wot s ou d"n gebeur ? - -- Ons sal u t di e tronk uit­

kom en di e wi t mense doodmaak . H¥ het gase di e m~n w~t ~

boodskap van buite "ebr ing hot, hot hom • eso dat hy nl e n

eleenthe l d 6ekry he t om 1n ~nnrakinp. te korn met di e mense • bui te om hom to kom se wat "~n d l 0 gang ls ni e . Ons he t hom

toe .lvr al , Wi e i s d l t? '

,lio he t hom gevr u? Ek het hom gevr a . Hy het • goso d i t i s n Bantoe Polis i eman Ek het hom t oe vi r sy n~~m

ovra en toe se hy : ,Nee , ok k.1.n jall nl e verte ! wat sy naarn

1s nl e . Hookom ste l jy so b~ le vr le? ' • Too sa hy :l".n cns

almal : ,Kyk aans , ek di nk di e toespr ouk wat ek kom ae, sal

• moo i woos . Almal wat h i er i s , julIe moet "an hulle :lan se

dat hull e i n A- blok en E moet i ngaan on dat ons al m'l danr

moet guan s l oap.'

vhnneer moes julIe dn'lr gaga sl n!'!p? -- - Vanaf - -daur di o dor. hot hull e hul komberso geneem en i n d.ar d i e

blokko in e nan .

I n A en E? --- Ja .

Watter se lle i n daar di e blokke? --- A. 1 was vir

ons w~t i n di e wer kswinke l werk . A. 2 , 3 en 4 was vir ander

pri sonl er s wat i n di e spanne gewor k het . Hy he t gesa hulle

noet in eni ge sol dncr 1n !"lan .

I n w.t tor se ll l n E-bl ok? - - - Eni ~e sel duar ,

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HER~RT.

sol ank dit bekend i6 i n watte r blokke on. is .

Voor julIe nou na danrd i e sell e toe i s , hat hy aan

julIe geSe di o toe s pr~ak w~t hy gunn ~~~k, ga~n mooi wees .

Wat ter too s pr nnk he t hy t oo gema'lk? - - - By hat ni e vordui de -

11k wat di e tocspraak rraan woes ni e •

I s di e toespraak by n I nter go l eant ho i d dour hom

rOl.101.ak? --- Ja .

Wonneer was dit ? --- Danrd i e da~ nadat hy di t ,nn • ons gese het, he t ons ultneka:}r en p:J.rty van cns het gnnn

w~s en toe i s hy terug nn 5y wer k t oo .

Wanneer het julIe weer bymekaOT gckom en het hy ~

toespr ,nk fernaak? - - - Di e Saterdag van di esolfde woek, too

ok v~n di e werk terug ekeer het, hot ok ~evind dat hy no my

c.esoek he t. Too het hy vi r my ese ora daud i e dog n, E. 3

too ge ann .

I s jy toe ~~ E. 3 too? - - - J~ .

Was hy daar in E. 3 too Jy daar kon , of hot hy later

dnn r ekom? --- Ons het na E. 3 1n di e o.~nd gognan wanneer

ons g~an sl~ p. Hy het vir my ~so ok moet soontoe g~an i n

di e n~nd . Ons s~l a l mal dnar sl~np .

Was di t nou di e Saterdagaand? --- Jo .

Wi e wo, nou almal in sel E. 3 di o Saterda.annd?

Ons wa.s b'1. i e .

Was jy dHr ? -- - Ja .

Beskul di gde No . 1, wonr was hy? - -- By hot heel

l aas t e i n-ekorn saam met di e Bl ankes too hullo getel het , ~ on toe hul le t oegomaak hot .

En toe di e Bl ankes nou ui t i s , hot jy en beskul­

di gde No . 1 a t er gebl y en wi o nog? -- - Al di e monso wot hoe

kenni s hot, Was almal d~ar bymeka~r gewees .

K~n jy n~~e noem? --- Di t was John Kuoal o , f \ -~

~ Sekunbuso Phocahl eni, Sepo Makape l a, Joseph Zunp-u , Jo cob

Mo oeo, M~nyits i, Jacob Knaou en nog bai e andere , beskul di gdo

1 HERBE:?T .

No . 1 ingaoluit .

En Solocon

woord ig nie .

Hat julIe vergadering gehou to, daardie aand? __ _

Ja .

me hat die ver adering toegespreek? --- Ons hot

gewag totd~t die Bcwa~rders wat in die dag werk, wca gaan ,

scdnt die Bew~~rders w~t in die n~g work kan lnval . Hulle

is nie baie nie, daor is net Ben Bewa,rder wet in die binne­

k~nt rondstap . Dns sou dus kon pralt want hy sou ver we~

stap en hy vat n lang tyd wonneer hy sy rondte doan .

Het julIe toe eleentheld cekry om n Vergndering

te hell daardie nand? ___ J~ .

Het enigiamand die vcrgadering toegespreek? __ _

Wie was dit? --- Beskuldi~dc No . 1 .

Wos hy voorsitter ook van die vcr adering of het

julIe n onder voorsitter gchad?

kleiner '5 hy is, gehad .

Oas hot n ander een wet

Wie was dit? John Kumalo .

Wat het No . 1 in·sy toospraak gese? - __ Hy hat n

brief by hom uitgehaal wat op n pienk skryfblokpapier gQ _

skryf was .

Dio pienk skryfblokpapior, is dit papier ",t in

die tronk aan julIe gegee word om briewe op te skrywe of

wet is die posisio daor? - - - Noo , hy is nio in die tronk nie .

W.os die brief in n koovert of was dit sommer so

oop? --- Dit "las nle in 'n koevert nle, hy hat nie 'n koevert

ohad nie .

Waar hot No . 1 die brief uitgehaal? --_ Uit sy sak

uit .

;Ioar het Jy gasit too 110 . 1 die brief uit ~haal

hot, hoev.:?r van hom 'if? --- Hy was die tW<3dde persoon Will my

HERIlBRT.

af . Ek het in di e hoek estann .

VIas daar lig in die sol of was dit donker? --­

~it was nog ni e tyd om ligte ~an to sit nie .

W~S danr nog genoeg lip. 1n die sel? - - - In .

Wat het beskuldigde No . 1 toe mot dio brL f gec,,-k

w~t hy uit sy sak uit ch'nl hat? -- - Hy het dit uit~ch~,l on

di t gelees .

K"n jy min of mear die inhoud van d"~rdie r.rm f

onthou wot hy dn1r galees hot? --- In .

Kan jy stadi~ en kortliks die inhoud waergeo?----• Die bietjie wot ok knn onthou, sal ek sa .

In watt~r t~~l WlS dlt? --- In En e1s .

Kan jy dit vir ons in En",els herhaal? J~ .

Accusod No . 1 said: 'Members, soils of the land . I am of tho

son of Afr i c" who is spe1kin~ here . This is the ri~ht tim~

that I am comin. to fetch you tonight. I am the son of

Africa, Peter Molots1.' That is ,11 that I c'n rOT'lOLlbcr .

Hat hy dit uit daardie brief uit eclees? --- qe

read it out of the letter .

Wie i s Peter Molotsl, weet jy? - -- Ek het p'_vr'1

wi e Poter Molotsi is.

Vir wic het jy gevra? --- Ek hat vir beskuldi.do

No . 1 gevra .

• • Wot se hy too? --- Hy hat gcse dit is die n1n wat

ons lond verl.at het wat na Katon a gega1n het

qct hy no_ eni~iets bygovoe~? --- In hy hot too • gese: ,Nou manne, julle hoor self, hi er 1s die brief ! Ole

soldlte is ~lreeds naby . Di e hele Kalpprov l nsle , is n~ my

menln?, nou gereed en hulle w~g nou nat vir di e tyd, asook

Leballo om uit Basoetolond uit te kom om in die Vryst- ,t in

te :>.3.nn .

Wie is l.obo11o? Hy i s n man van wie hy epr1at

het wat no. B"soetoland 0 "on hat om as n sold",t opgelei to

190. HERBERT.

word .

Wie he t so gose? --- Boskuldi gde No .1 .

W,t het hy nog verder ceso , indien eni"iets?

Hy hat gase: l Wat ek nOll sa 1s ni e 1ets vir more ni c .

Vir wannoer io -lit, het hv dit v rder v0rdu i delik?

• --- Hy het gese:,dit is i ets waaroor ons korn ese l s hat in

hioNiie blokke . Hullo hot gekorn om ons to kom h,o l hierdi e

~~nd , en ~s cns hi e r ultkom, g~3n ons begin doodma~k v~n n

pasgeboro b~bn, n minuut oud, tot by d i e ,root ~3n. Asook

die hondo en katte wat nan n wit mnn behoort want hullo hot

oak di e O'tn i er V!ln d i e bans. Cns 531 n1 ~~~k soos die ~~n

vl't doodgoOGrlk het en een lant stn'1n hot ni e . D1t is llio

reda wa r oo cns vnndng so sw~nr lewe . ~s hy d1t ni e gedoen

hot n10, sou oos in vrede goicef het . 1 Too so hy: , Nou

oans , nou meet julIe julIo ore oopnaak . Jy mag nie jou

skoens W'l.t jy drrJ. , u ittrck nie w~nt cns weet nle,

9n1ge tyd, ml sk1en nOll nog wnnnoer cns no~ bes i r; is 00 te

pr~at, knn hulle inkom . ' Ek het hoc toe gevr~ : , As hullo

i nkom, w~armeo g~nn ons b~kle i w~nt ons het nie oers n kier i e nl o ?1 Too sa hy: IOns s.:ll vans do.:n b1l1te kry stnan .

D~ar sal n m~n sy vuurwapcn en 5y sw~ard kry. As jy ~ s 13n~

d~dm~uk, om_to 10 d~t jy hom doodeem,ak hot, moot jy sy

k.op afkap . I Di e .. vcr("~der inl! bet tee d~.r r;eCiiIldic. -ens­hot-toe gaw~g d~t hull? sou oopmnak .

Dit i s nou b,ie bo l angrik. K~ jy onthou w~ttcr

m~'nd van di e ja~r d1t ~eweas hat? --- Ek kan ni e moor ~ooi

onthou nie, rn)~r ni t W'1S nie n.'{ di e winter nie.

Was dit veer di e winter? - - - J~ .

Kan jy onthou hoolank voord,t die wi nter bc~in

hot? --- Dit was n kort t ydj i e .

'las dit al in herrs ? ---

gewcos het ._ -W~ttor jnar w~s di t? ---

-

191. HERBERT.

Het jy die brief solf gasion, die inhoud da'\l'van?

-- - Ek het gel er, ek wou net die adros sien.

w,tter adres wou jy nou sion? - - Die 1fsender se

ndres .

gssien? - - - D~ar w~s ~aen odressa

geweos 010 .

Watter renksic het dit by jou uit~olok toe jy geen

ndres dlar bo sien nie? --- Ek het toe r,evra .

Aan wie het jy gevra? Dit was Kumalo wat toe

estaan het . Ek het hom gevra: ,Hoe lyk hierdie brief wat

ie n adres het nie?' Hy het toe gese dia brief rna· nie ~

adres he nie want as hulle dit ontdek sal hulle uitvind waar

ons leiers is . Ons het gewag . Niks het gebeur nie tot dap-­

break . Ons is toe uit die selle gelaat .

Het julle uiteegaan in spanne da~rdie da£, of was

daar nie soiets nie? - - - Dit was n Sondag .

En die volgende dag? -- - Die Maandag is ons nie

met die spanne uit nie .

Roeveel dae ..... '3.5 die spanoe nie uit nie? --- Dit \tras

n paar daa, ek kan nie onthou hoaveel nie .

Was dit die laast. keer dat daar vergaderines ge­

hall is of was daar no meer vergaderings ~ehou na hierdie

een wat jy van vertel het? --- Ons hat nie meer ander ver­

gaderings gehou nie .

• Jy het ook gister in jou getuienis ~ese dat jy be-

skuldi d~n en dat jy hom te Baviaanspoort ontmoet

hat, is dit korrek? --- Ja.

kom?

het.

Kan_ jy aan die Hof sa hoe hy in die prentjie in j Hy is n per soon wat ek dikwels danr sien rondloop --

Waar presies het jy hom op die Gevanrenisterrein

sien rondloop? Hy was aan beskuldi de No . 1 eewoond -----gewees .

192. HERBERT.

Het hulle albei saam geloop? --- Ja, hulle was

vir mekaar ewoond ewees . Dit het voorp,ekom dat hulle aan-

mekaar verwant was .

Het jy ooit enige gesprekke met beskuldi~de No . 3

gehad of hy met jou? - -- Eenda~ terwyl ons in die ja ,rt WqS, -hat '"Iy my gegreot QR lanes my 00 die stoep korn sit... Ons hat -toe begin ~esels .

Waaroor het julIe ~esel.? - -- Ons het aan die be-

gin sommer normaalwe gasels . Ek hat hOffi toe ,evra: ,Ek

sien dat jy altyd saam met beskuldicde No . 1 is, watter soort

persoon i s jy? ' Toe het hy vir my ges" dat hy'n ,U .". ' is.

Wat beteken 'n , IT .W.' ? --- Under World.

Het hy dit vir jou ,ese of het jy dit geweet?

Ek weet waarvoor die UeW . staan.

,ht beteken die ,Under World ' nou? ':k_het hom { t0t3 P.'evra of hy van my soort Under .World is, wut rne1!sc d~ar

buite pIn en hulle van hulls pold beroof. Toe sa hy: 1I0e . -Het hy geSe van watter soort se Under World so

nansa 1s hy nou? Ja , hy het rese hy is 'n P.A.C.

eanda sal hulle in die moeilikheid beland. • ,Ek se dit omdat ek'n rebel is . '

,., ., " .::.:',:."'"' ., ': "' " .... ,' ". ", '"' ."~ Ja? --- Hy het gese hulle sal deelneem in die ~.

.evep en ~ns sal hulle help want God help die-,ene wat h

self hawee . En julle rebello, sodra ens oorwin hat, sa

ons toesian dat julIe swaar lewa.

Van watter .eve. het hy gepraat? --- Hy het van

die P.A . C. se evag gepraat .

-t7

Die P. A. C. se eve teen wio? - - - Teen dio Wittes.

"at het hy alles omtrent hierdie geveg gese?

Die klokkie het toe elui en ons moes ons kos aan kry het

193 . HERBERT.

en toe is ons uitmekaar uit . • Het hy eni,iets verder omtrent die P. A.C . Rese

gedurende die gosprek? --- Dit is nou lank gelede, ek kan

nie onthou nie .

Weet jy watter posisie hy in "ie P.A .C. - organisasie

boklee het, of het hy dit nie vir jou feSe nie? --- Hy het

my nie gess nie. Hy het nie tyd g0kry om vir my te S9 wat­

ter posisie hy beklee het nie .

Was dit die enigstc ~eleentheid wat jy met beskul--digde No . 3 in n gesprek ewikkel was ? --- Ja •

. _----."flr.e'"e,.t,-,j~y;-;:w;;a:;t:-;t:;;e:;r:-;p:;o::s:ii-:;s:ii-;;e~b;;:c~skuld i ,~de No . 1 in cl ie

P. A.C . -orp,anisasie beklee hot? --- Hy het • my gese .

• Wat het hy aan jou gese? --- Hy hat vir my ese

hy is die Chief of the Task Force.

Geen verdere vrae deur Aanklaer nie .

KRUISQNDERVRAGr G DSUR B';SKULDIGDE~: Ek w11 n versoel:

aan die Hor ri", Edolagbare . Ek is bekommerd in my hart

vanda? ~ Ek was b~reid om voort te ~3an met die saak, maar

as ek onthou "''it '11e 1 poroat man' daer in die tronk vanor~end

• aan ons -:ase het dat ens nOll baie swaar in die tronk ,-'aon

kry . Hy het. dit aan ons almal gerig, dat hy op Saterdag en

Sondag vi.r ons .:lIma 1 veroordael, tot (lie cen wat doad 1s .

Hy hat • ~ese ~y salons veroordeel a1 1s hy van dicns af a

• Ek voel dat hierdie din" my geestelik aantas, want hy se

ons prast teveel hier in die Hof . Ek weet nie hoed at dit

my raak nie want ek het glad nie met hom hier in die Hof

.opraat nie, dit is beskuldi,;de No . 3 wat hom onder kruis­

verhoor rene em het. Hy het die ander mense danr in die • tronk gase dat ons m1shandel meet word . Ek vr~ vir '1a

Hof om n plan vir ons te beraam sodat ons na n ander

Gevangenis verwyder kan word om te sien hood at ons daar sal

lewe . Ek kan my nou nie my oar die saak voorbere1 n1e,

terwyl ek nag besir is om te dink aan die straf wat ek in

•

194 . H13RBSRT .

di e tronk gaan kry . Daar i n di e tronk , aan"es i en ons saam

aangekl a 15 J mee t cns oor di e saak gese l s . As cns oor di e

s~ak gese l s, sal cns aan~ok la word want hulle se ons m~~ nie

pr aat ni o . Ek vra di e Hor om i n aanmerk i nc te neem ",t ek

nOll ~ese hat want ek kan ni e met die sa,k voort~aan nie

terwyl ek no" in hi erd i e tronk aangehou is ni e .

AANKLAER: Ek stel voor dat ek met die Kommi ssar i s van

Gevan~enis, Gan . Steyn, persoonli k 1n aanrnkin; kom , asaok

met Kol . Bezuidenhout en di t onder sy aanda~ brin' , an om

daardi e rede vr a ek om 'n kar t verdarri ng . Dit i s bl oot TI ~ r ooksker", wat h i er opgewer k word aan~esien die beskul" i cdes ~ nou sien dat di e wi nd uit hulle se ile i s .

BESKULUI ~DE No . 1: Di t is ni e di e gcval ni e . Di e di n.,e

wat hl er aan -lie Bef vertel 1s, sal ek M\"ryS watt· r '1oor t

cliMe dit is .

HOF VERD AA G.

BY IBRVATTIlTG:

AAIIKLAER AMI HOF: Ek het di e Hof so opdrag ui tp,cvQcr .

Ek het i n vorbi nd in~ getr ee met di e Al junk-kommi ssaris V" n

Gevang!lni sse cn hy hat too Bri . Van Aardt ~c5tuur . 0jy ho~

met di e beskul d i f!des P.'esels en hy hat vQorl"'t?ste l lat hy stll

pr obeer roe11ngs t rof vanda~, nadat hy di e sank ondersoek

het an deeGlik daarop in~op,aan hat , om di e besku1ci~dos

oor .eplaas te kry na di e Geva ngen i s in Pr etoria . Hy het

een vir oon ,;revra of hu 1.19 tevrede i s daarmee en elkeen hat

-ese: ja, hulle is daar~eo tevrede . Ek het ook Kol . Bezui­

denhout hi or, Edelarbare, aan~esien daar sakara bewer in~s

vanoP'r; nd "e',i:l;:Uc is, om net daard i e bewer i n 5 te korn weorlo .

Ek vra dan om di e vor i~~ Fetui a 59 r.etuienis net to onder -

breek en di e Kol onel t e roep .

WYNAND FRE ERI CK ALBERT US BEZUIDENHOUT v . o . o .

O'lDERVRA~ING DEUR AANKLAER Kol one l , II i s di e Bevelvoer en-

de Offi s l er i n di e Bavl~anspoortGevangeniskommandecent ? __ _

1 5. KOL . BEZUDE"HOUT.

Dit is korrek .

U het alreeds ~1ster 1n h1erd1e Hof -etu1an1s

nf ala? Ja .

Kalona I, Beskuld1edo No . 3 het 1ster hi3r ,an u ·0

stellinp .. emaak dat hy aan,erand sou "eweas het hior by jie

Hof? - - - Ja .

U het daarop ~eantwoord d.1t u dit n'ln;-,"!tc~:O'1 h0'3t

an die saak sou ondersoek? - - - Ja .

Hot u vanoggend met boskuldip,de No . 3 -onr.ct of

m·~t onige van hler di e beskuldiC"·~es? --- Net met basl",1'1 -rje

No . 3 .

Wn.nr was die ander beskul( ipdcs too u met "10m -0 ~

praat het? --- Hulle "TaS by hom ewaes .

Wat hat u aan hom pese tydons u raspr~k met hom?

--- Ek het boskuldi'~de No . 3 op sy nnam nangosprock . EI: hot

vir hom ~ese dat ek daardio klarte wnt hy ~istor ~aonpor het~

eeondersoek en ek het eevind dnt boskuldiede met di" uit-ann

u 1t die Hof ult na d i e selle met privnnt r.:onso ('es~ls 110t.

Die Li d in bevel van di e ~le ide het nan die bes~:ul(i -~4e

geqe dot hy mag nie cot privoat ~ansa gasals nie, hy ~oot

aanloop .

,ary is daardie Lid? - - Bow",rdor Voroter. Beskul-

• dip'Je N . 3 ',et aon die Lid geso - ok wll nie graa 'i ",Hoe

wooroe gebruik nie • . •

Hat hy boledi ende tanl gebr u i k? --- In belodig-

• en1e ta~l het hy 'an die lid gaoo: , Los my u i t, ok gasels

met my menso. ' Daarop hat die Li d vir beskuld i F,de aange­

stoot on gase: , Jy mag ni e gesels nle, loop aan . r EY. hot

aan beskuldi"de No . 3 gese: , Jy besef dat jy jOUSGlf bloat

stol 'an 'n "ankl" indion jy sulke d i nga deen, !Jo"t dit nie

weer doen nle . I Daarop hat ok O~ edraat en dio blnnopl~ns

i n .eloop .

Kolonal, het u ani,a draigementa van l<atter Mrd

196. KOL. BEZUIDEN'lOUT •

ookal teen boskuldi de No . 3 aIleen of teen sy made ovangonos

gEuiter? - - - Ek h6t geen dreigemente etliter nie .

U was ister lank aan kruisondervrnging ondorworpe

dsur die boslmldigdes, is dit korrek? --- Ja .

adlt u ekruisvra is, hoc h t u gevoel omtrcnt die

kruisondervraging? --- Ek hat gevocl S('I05 13k nl cear ",5 cen

keer vantovore gcvoel ~ot . Dnt die boskuldiedes is in n

bonard~ posisie en as sulks probeor hulle enifc dinr om hul--Ie posisie to verbotor - wat in werkl1kheid jy hull" nie kan

kwnl1k neem nie.

M. a . w. hat u en1ge griewe gedra or.1d~t U p'cl'ruisvr::t

is hior in die hoodnnighoid as Bevelv erendo Offisi r? --­

Nee, ek het nie .

Geen verdere vr~e deur Aankl~er nl0 .

~eskuldi .. de No . 1: Ek het geen vrae nie, ek hat rJY versoe!:

n"n die 3rignd er gerig. Ek is nou banr om ~et die Knlonel • nou te praat oor wat hy vlnoggend gese het .

Beskuldiede .10 . 2: Geen vrae nie .

Accused '~o t 3: I am in a state of fear, 1.5 a result I cnn-

not cross-question the Commandinp Officer . No further

quostions.

KOL. EEZlJIDE"HOUT: Ek mag net vir inl1gtin~ van die Hof

en ook miskien vir die beskuldigdes dat dit hulle moer op

hulle ee::1ak sal stel, ek staan op oorplas1ng en ek vortrek

b nne In. dag of t\vee, ef' ek het geen grief nie . Ek het ree..1:;

vnntevore 1.ansoek F,edoen asn die Departement O!:) die bps\~l­

digdes oor te plaas Pretor1a toe, omdat ek beperkte ~kkoo­

mod~sie daar het . Ongelukki kon no nie d~ar~an voldoen

word nie .

Accused No . 3: He has ~1ven inst1.·uct10ns alr9ady to t"e

other official (Court intervenes)

COURT: The State Prosecutor has told the Court th~t

arran ements are being made to have you transferred to

~97.

HERBERT . Pretoria .

Accused No . 3: With all my respect, Your Worship, I h~ve no

further questions in the present state .

Accused Nos . 2, 6. 7. 8 nnd 9: The same applies to "s o

Accused Nos . 10, 11 . 12. 13 and 14: No questions .

- ._-----------------HERBERT MATISO v. o. e .

KRUISO'ID3RVRAGI'IG DEUR BESKULDIGDE No . 1: Ken jy my? ---

I know you from Leeukop.

When did you start to know ne at Leeukop? --- The

tiL'.e when yon were ,.,orkin at a ~ro.ss span .

;lhich ye'r was th"t ? --- In 1961 .

And the month? --- Towords the winter .

Was it June, M.,y? --- It wns before June .

The second time you saw me? -- - I saw you come in

nt the open camp at Baviannspoort .

How did you happen to know me at Leeukop? - .. _ I

know you throu~h Friday .

;lho is Friday? -- - Your friend til' you were '..,it'

at ;litbank.

Is he still in gaol? --- I c~nnot say ~~c~use we

left hi'" thore .

In which year did I leave Leeulwp? - __ I 10n I t

know . I saw you in 1961 l...te . •

Was it when I left Leeukop? --- I caun0t sny, it

is where I started to see you .

You say that you started to see me during the

winter, in June? --- Ag1.i.n, when I ll:.;o<:lin S'1.W you from

Leeukop, I saw you nt the Bavi~Dnspoort open camp.

\·lhat year? --- In 1961 .

What month? --- It was lnte.

Will you say that I am a lier if I tell you that

I "as nevor in the open C:J.lllp during the month you have

19 .

mentioned? - -- You are a li ar .

When did you leave Leeukop? -- - ;Tinter, 1961 .

When did you arrive at the Bavi,anspoort Prison?

--- The samo day .

Prison?

toe kamp .

How many camps are there at the Buvloanspoort

That time we had the open c amp, an old 2aol an;~

When you arrived at the open camp, where ui,' you

rind me? -. _. You were not there . I was the first non-1Nhite

who entered there .

But you told the Court that I left the Leeu: op

before you? - - - I did not .

ltlhen did I -'1r!'ive :'\t. the open C:1:np? --- t.. .. t. 1961.

I found you in the op~n canp? --- Yes .

When I 3rrived in the open camp that year, to

which place did I go? - -- E. 4.

You h"d told the Court that I was together with

you nt E. 3?--- Early 1962 you camo to E. 3.

yO'] told the Court yesterday that I arrtvod there

late in 1961 anJ that I went to E. 3 in tho open c ~p?

I said 1.

,fuere did you ond I meet in 1961? - - - At Leeukop.

I mean when we met 1n the open camp? --- Llte

When did I leave E4? -- - I started to se~ yeu

pu~tin~ up at E . 3 early 19h2 .

You have told the Court thllt you nnel I spoke

about mntters of tho Congress . vlhen was it? --_ Aft'Jr winter

in 1962.

If there is evidence that I

will you soy that it is a lie? --_ It never slept in E. 3, /

will be a blue lie.

When I arrived there in E. 3 in 1?62, who did I

at there? --- You got met there, I was putting up there

with the ' bougroep ' troup~ .

19 • HERBERT .

What di d I do on my arr i va l ther e? --- Nothi ng .

Did I Just come the r e and stood ? - -- You were

l ooki ng f or a place to put up and you got ~ place.

Who offe red l a ee to me ? - -- The cleaner s .

Who were the eleaners ? - -- I t W3S Mi ke .

Is he i n gao l ? --- He i s d i scharged .

Wher e d i d I work at that time , lam in 1 ~6 1 ? __ _

At t he bowlin gr eens .

Whe re di d you work? - -- I was the ma chine - oper.,tor

at the bowling gr eens .

I n E. 3 wher e you say I w~s sleepi ng, what di,l I

say to you ther e? --- You star ted l a t e 1962 to come up with

polit ic s manner .

What manner s were they? --- Of i nci t i ng people

that they must wor k 'ga i nst the Whites .

Were thera other persons present ';,I, t.. th:lt pl ace

when I tol d you that ? --- Mor e than

Who were they? - -- Jacob, one . J ManYi tsi, Kumalo, Knaou

Are nIl these people you have cent l oned , in F~ol ?

n_ Most of them ~ transferred to Bethlll, others to thol

othe r s i de of Vaa l River . - You toB the Court that on my arrival there I

started to speak to you about the Congr ess? Not the first d,'Y when you arr i ved , later.

You told the Cour t that ,'U'r i ved at E. 3 i n 1962?

-- - Yes .

And that I spoke to you? --- Yes, or dinary con-vorsatlon .

Dur i nc which month i n 1962? --- I do not remember

what month, i t was befor e wi nter .

What di d I say when I spoke to you for the f irst

time? --- Ord i nar y conver sat i on .

200. He:RFERT.

About what? - - - Just an ordinary conversation .

Even it was jus t ordinary conversation , can yell

say about what i t was ? --- It wa s not eonverning the case

we are now s peaking about .

You say I was there and that I spolte to you . I

want to know what the diseussion was about? ___ We were

working together, we were discuss ing about the job .

Where did we see each other for the second time?

--- Later towards the winter you were hired at the office .

But you have just told the Court that the second

time I was with Knaau and the others whom you have mentioned?

--- We were with them together, we were put t ogether in the

room .

But r asked you what I and you spoke when we

met one another for the f irst time, in E. 3. You said th~t

we had only a general di scuss i on about our work ? Yes .

Now I am ask ing you a question . Where did I meet

you for the second time? --- We were putting up at E. 3 and

we were work i ng to ether .

,fuen did we meet Knaou and the others in E. 3? __ _

I n E. 3.

During what year? --- After you wore hireJ t th~

office .

W~S it the second time we met? --- No, you st~rted

to continu~ with your stories.

What stories were they? --- It was when you start~d

to ShOH me your true colours.

How W!)S my true colours? --_ Poli tics .

Who were with us when I discussed these political

matters with you? - --~ l).u0"11,['l .

And in the end, What happened? Then you started to correct me and convince me that I must be a mecber.

was it in 1962 early? - __ No .

201. HERBERT.

When was it? --- After winter .

When di d we see each other again? --- I saw you

every day.

Where did I work at the bowlinp greens? --- 'ile

havo a little roek io front of the cant een and it i s whore

you were w~tor1ng the flowers and dress tho l~wn .

Where did you work? I W:1,S tto machine-oper1tor

to dress tho bowling ~rean and the tonniscourt ~s well.

If evi dence is produced that I nover slept in E. 3

as you say , will you say thnt it is a lie? - -- I run not m~~ .

I am telling you that you wore putt ing up there.

And th~t you an,] I nevor hel" n eoting? --_ You

say that now . I . oy you and I ann the others ment i oned

waro having mee tings therB .

When di d I started sleeping in C. 3? --_ You ;;ere

no ver put up in C. 3.

But you t ol d the Court that I slept i n C. 3? __ _

After you had been pr080tod then you were putting up in C. 2

whero tho house monitors are put up .

But you have told the Court that I W1S put up in

C. 3.

PROSECUTOR' I objeot . The witness nevor said that.

ACCuSED No . 1' When di d I sleep in C. 2 for the f ir st time?

It w~s ~fter your promot i on .

Who pr omoted me? --- The Officors .

Wh i ch yeur was that? --- In 1963.

Will you S1Y that I ~ 0 liar i f I toll you that

I started work i n" in the offioe durin Septe~bor, 1962? __ _

I said so .

But you have just sai d that I W1S pr omotod in

1963? --- In 1963 i s the time when you were , i van a broooh

that you ar e a monitor . Tho pr omotion that I ~ean .

When did I start sleepi ng in C. 3? --- It was

202 . HllRBERT .

towords winter 1 63 .

Have the prisoner the right to get himself a

sleeping pluce in gaol? - - - At the open camp they don ' t

tell you where t o . The eleaner . tell you th, room is ecpty

and they take the others in the full rooms "nd fill th'lt one

up that the room~ mus t have the r i ht number .

I s that wor k not done by the Warders? --- They first

put you i n the room when you are still coming 'lith the trans­

fer . After you fire used to the place. then you jUI:lp to W'",lT

brothers that you tind there .

I put it to you that thero is not such, thing . _ _ _

I tell you that you have got no right room where to put up .

You only know that you are putting up in place C. 2, but VOU

put up any house where you want to put up for the night .

Who sleeps i n C. 2? --- House moni tors .

Whut h~ppens to the monitors7arttinp the day? __ _

They are cleanod like the others .

Will you say that I am telling a lie if I say that

it is locked durin the day? - __ Yes .

H-ve I the right to go ond sleep in other cells,

as a person who works in the office? --- You are reliable

and you put up where you w~nt, ~nd nobody c~n ask you where

you wrmdcr .

If evidence is produced that I could not slesp in

another cell, except C. 2, will you say that it is a lie?

I put it to you that you, we all know thnt your right ploce

to put up is C. 2, but you don ' t put up there .

But my question to you is: if evi dence is produced

that it was compulsory for ne to sleep in C. 2, will you say

th,t that evidence is untrue? - -- It is untrue because we ,11

know that you nre compulsory to put up there but yeu don ' t put up there .

During the day I have had persons who can be token

•

203 . HERBERT .

into the plaees where the spe cials sleep .

because during the day I am at work .

I do not know

COURT: Ar~ there uny other questions he w~nts to ask?

A';CUBED No ,1 : Ye s , Your Worship .

When did the A- group leave E. 3? --- Wo only had 9

or 7 A-groups, or bui lding groups, and they were belongin to

the workshop .

Here you also one of the A-group? .. _- No .

But you told the Court you left with the A- group

to No . A, because you arc a member of the A-greue, you ..... orlt"d

<n the workshops . - -- I was registered in the buildin- ?roup

and I am entitled to put up with them, b::eamI hwe got rr.:r post.

You have told the Court that I h~ve issued an order

that people should take their blankets to '0 and sleep in

E.3 in A-block? - - - Yes .

Is it according to law that I can issue instruc-

tions to the prisoners to go and sleep in other cells? __ _

We were obeyi ng your laws.

Is there evidence to confir~ thnt those thinr,s

h~prened on the day you have mentioned? ___ I s~y it.

I put it to you that such a thing novor happened?

I say you had instructed ~e to 0 and put up there and

the others. Fro," Hednesdoy we were following to those blOCKS

and filled thorn up .

'lihat happened to the plnces of the other ~ersons

who slept there, because there were other persons they were

occupying tho place? - -- That was not my worries, that

should have worried about.

You h.we told the Court that arrive<l with vou

there and that I found you in E. 3? --- How can we arrive

there to ether?

I am sorry, is it true what you say that I foun,

you in E. 3? --- Yes, lock up time .

204. HERBERT .

Who was with us there? --- The wholo ~embers .

Are the me~bers you have mentioned still in aol

now? --- Others are serving long sentence nnd they nre tr~ns­

ferred and the other one is still he re .

How many people he l d these Congross meet1~~s to-

gether with us there?

not eount them .

Thera were so much thot I couli

--- You ..

About the who l e gaol? - - - No .

You said t hat we held Motin s there . Hho snote?

About whot did I speak? --- AccorJin, wh~t yeu hove .

What was it? --- P. A. C. pr oblems.

I find that the r e does not exist such 3 thin" s

you have ment ioned . I was ne ve r in that E.3 of which yeu

~~do mention . All these many peopl e you hove made _.ention

of, Whom you say they nre no more in ~aol , why ~re they no

more thore except Jacob Knnou? - -- Those others t h:'tt I ~lo not

remember them, th,t I have said in Court, we r e the intelli_

enca of the or~~nisat ion .

Rut why 1s it now, th.,t of theso [;inny per~ons ~rou

have cantioned, you s~ i~l that you could not count, '"Ire no

~ore in gaol except Jncob Kn,ou? - - - They oro still there

because I couln not sec the ir foces all of thorn . '110 had

two bungalows there .

You ~enn some of them are st i ll there? ___ Yes .

Can you ment i on their namos? I have said thot

I CQuld not see them becnuse they were not in the same roo~,

but we have always sent letters t o then . E-block and A were

011 full of ~embers .

Hby do you say thnt lettars were sont to then, yet

you do not know the meobers with Whom you work? ___ You sai ,'

that this letter I ao sending it to E. 1, E. 2 and this one to E. 4.

20,). flERB'lRT.

Whom di d I say I am sendin the letters to? __ _

To the members .

to write?

Which member.? --- Of P •. ~.C .

You say that it was a l etter . Is it permi ssible

You are permitted .

What was written there? --- I did not reAd it .

You say that I was eonvoy1n~ letters on a cart,

is that the truth? - -- Exactly .

What cart was that? --- Mai l wa .

Who drove it? Conviets .

Are they in gaol? --- They nre servin- short ti~s .

I put it to you that thore is no such tioe who­

ever drove the mail wa at Bavi a.a.nspoort . --- M!'1.il Hr<, lon~

times ar e nOb ent itled to work with it because they will dn

trollble s at the quarter . That i s why the Officers put th~

short times there . It is no officer, it i s only monitor.

I put it t o you that the person who dr ove the

mail wa were only two and they were both monitors . And

their terms cf imprisonment were four yea.rs upwards . __ _

Then it i s not the mail wa we are using at Bavi ,aanspoort,

it is your s .

The letters which you say th~t I aspatched,

where did I t::tke them to? --- To the close Mmp .

To whoc? - -- You said that Marshall Nkuna received it .

Which year Was that? --- 1963 .

If thero is a witness who will say that Marshall \

Nkuno was not there in 1963, will you say that he tells" I' lie? - - - Yes .

When di d Marshall Nkuna arr i ved in the open c'~p7

--- I d i d not know Marshall Nkuna, I only heard about hio .

Fr om who di d you hear? From you .

What di d I say, who i s he? --- You sa i n ho is e

206 .

superior of the P. A. C.

When you saw Solomon Nkun~ for the f i rst tine,

where was it? - - - I s tarted to see him last year .

Durine whi eh month? - -- November .

W'1cre di d you see him? --- At the close C"Ullp.

Did you see him there for tho first t i me? - __ Yes .

If evi dence is producod that Solomon NJrunn W'lS in

the open camp in February nnd th,t you wore also thore, will

you say that is ~ lie? - - - No .

Solomon Nkuna came there in Fe bru~y nnd he );~S a

person known to me, did I ever c omr to you ~nj tell you ~bout

him? --- You didn ' t.

But why did I not because I h,d already pr viously

told you that he is the person to whom I conveyed the letters?

Because I no more associated with you.

Did we ever have a quarrel? --- No .

Why did "e not ·,ssooiato with eaeh other any

moro? - -- Because what I have expected, has foiled .

LikG what? - - - That I would be freo .

You s'id that I worked together with you .t the

bowlin? reens at Baviaanspoort 1n the open C~jp? - __ Yes .

Did we never have a qU3.rrel at the bowlinE; greens?

--- No .

Did it never happen that I and you worked to­

gether at the tenniscourt? - __ No .

If evidence comes that I worked together with you

at the tenniscourt, will you say that it is a 11e? Yes.

Will I be tell i ng a lie if I say that you bond

~e to a Europe~n at the tenniscourt where we worked together?

- - - Th"t "UI be a lie .

Your ai~ W3S to create ~ spnce for a friend of

yours who later came 'md worked with you there . ___ lie thot , is a 11e.

HERBERT .

Will I be telling a lio if I say that the Europecn

from you made a false aeeusation about ~e and took rne nnd

ga~ me another work? --- That will be blue lio.

Will I be telling a lie it I put it to you thot

the European came and told me that you bond me? --- Blue

liar .

Is that not where our quarrel started? --- I never

had a qUarrel with YOU.

00 you remember when you worked on the tennis­

court with your friend, I was not working ~t the tennis­

court , I was only a tenniseourt dresser and had much work

to do with my m~ehine? Do you recember the person together

with whom you worked? There were so ~3ny thot I do not

remember , because at that place there 1s no ri ht pcr~on,

today is this one who pulls the roller, tomorrow thot ono .

I only came there for dressing .

Do you remember that during that year a certain

European who was in charge of a span, Mr . Van Wyk, got four

hours off on a Wednesday? --- They usually get it .

If he gets his four hours off, who romains with

the span? If the work is finished, the span goes in .

Did Mr . Van Wyk not leave prisoners , whom he

trusted, together with a Warder? --- It was not necesslXY .

Can you remember thnt a certain prisoner attempted

to escape on that d~y when Mr . Van Wyk was off duty? --- No .

Don 't you remember that day, after they have

knocked ofr, when I was looking for a prisoner but the

Warder counted them and that there was one missing? --- No .

Is there 3 latrine at the tenniscourt where you

and your friend worked? --- I had no position to work there .

I was the operator of the whole tennis court and the bowling

greens . I was a dresser . I used to dress the bowling greens

and the tenniscourt and from there I went to the dopot and

208 . HERBERT.

go and dress the depot .

I s there no shed at the tenni court where the

European stands and drink cool drinks ?--- There is .

There was a prisoner ~ho was a friend of yours,

who w rked there? _._- No .

Why can 't you recollect that on that day when

,larder Van Wyk was off duty, a pr isoner esc~ped? - __ Not in

my presenee .

I put it to you that you were also prosent . __ _

Then I was abnormal .

Do you remember a pr isoner by the nace of Patur

Makubeng? --- No .

Will I be telling a lie if I put it to you that

that pr i soner was your friend? --- That will bel blue lie.

I had no friend at the bowling gr eens . You were the only

person I was talking to.

,lill I be telling a lie if I say that this pr i sonar

who was your friend, you had hidden hi m on the ceiling of

the shed of the tenniscourt? --- That is a blue lie, because

that msn , when he atte~pted to escape, I w~s operat1n~ tho

boiler at the Maximum .

We~pe'lk now of What took place in 1962 . - __ ,;'h-t

time?

Dur ing the wi nter months . --- Durinp the wint~r

months in 1962 you were no more at the bowling greens, you

were working at the office and I was working at the shop .

I put it to you that I started work i ng in the

off ice in September, 1962. - -- I say it "as during the ,'int r

you started , to;.'arls the end of it .

These things you ar e relating to the Court, have

you been sent to cone and tell them to the Court or .re they

just things wh i ch oririnate from your mind ? --_ What I am

tellin in Court , is What you have said .

•

20'1 .

Is Jacob Knnou of whom you have made mention,

also witness in this case? --- Yes .

Ho i s your friend? --- No .

You never slept together with him? --- We wore

putting up to ether .

You never made friends with him? --- He is not my

friend .

Do you recolle ct about this friend of yours who

hid himself on thc ceiling during 1962?

PROSECUTOR: The witness had already so.id that he h"1 no

friend thero and that he "id not know ,nything about that .

COURT: Has he any fresh questions to 'sk?

ACCUSED No .1 :

with him.

I want to explain the quarrel which I h,d

Do you know Small?

Where did he work?

Yes .

At the canteen with 'IOU.

vlill you say it is a lic if evidence is adduced

that Small in ,hrder Van Wyk ' s office? - - - At the office

of the bowlin green, Boy was working there .

I 010 referring to 1962 . --- The tice when I "15

still there, Boy w,s working in the office .

You were vcrv ~uch worried I ~nd S~~ll h~d arrest

ed your friend . -- - I had no friend, why should I worry?

Do you re~eobor when W~rder removed us nIl to

gaol? - -- tlo .

When dil you leave the bowlinr greens? --_ When

the Trade Master w,nted me to go and operate the boiler .

I put it to you that you were expe llod from the

bowling greens . -- - Th"t was not my post, I was not expelled,

I belon. to the shops . There I only went and operate the

machine and went bod:: to tho shops.

I am referring to the year 1962 . -- - Since the

l,y when I arrived at Bavi"anspoort, I was there for the

J

210.

shops .

I put it to you th,t you were expelled from the

boilin room be cause of that prisoner , your friend, whoe

you ns~lsted •..

PROSECUTOR: The witness has a~eady answered this question.

ACCUSED NO . 1: And that pri soner who attempted to escape

was puni shed? --- I only he,rd th,t they attempted at the

bowling greens dur ing my absence nnd at that time I was

no more entitled to go to the bowling p,rcens. They had

somebody to operate it there .

I put it to you that that is where our quarrel

st~rted? - - - I have never quarreled with you .

Will you say that I am tellin n lie if I s,y

that you wrote a letter nnd take it to anoth0r prisonor to

drop it in Opperbewa.rder Pretorius's office inforoin~ him

that I want to escape from the bowling greens nnd th~t I ~I

a smuggler in the bowling greens? --- That is a lie.

Will I be telling a lie if I say that after you

left the bowling greens, you went to the colleea th~ sa"'c

year? -- - The college, it was oy usu,l phce where I opero ..

ted .

But my question to you is: will I be tellin, a

lie if I adduce evidence that after you were expelled froQ

the bowling reens, you went and worked in the colle~e? __ _

Th,t is a lio, because ,t the depot I every day 0 thero

and I have got work to do there , dai ly.

Will it be a lie if there is evidence thot at the

depot you and Mulaleke wero char god for lttemptinr to es-

C1.PO? A person who is char ed for lttemptin to escape,

the Prison epartment classes him ' C' tho very same time.

A friend of yours, who you do not want to aill it

now, you heard that he was once charged for atteoptin to

escape nnd that he was sentenced to 18 days? ___ It is

211. HERBERT.

why I did not believe when you were tolling y ur story, th"t

he attempted to escape, because I saw him again at the opc~

e~mp .

But if his documents are brought to Court ~nd they

reflect that he once attempted to esc1pe, will you s~y th~t

I was not rending on the doeuments, is incorroct? ___ I W~S

not the operator of the case .

Is there a thing called a 'bomb ' in gaol? ___ I

hear it from you .

Will it be a lie if I put it to you that a prisoner

tell lies about a certain prisone r to tha Europeans in order

th~t he may be given a soft job? --- It is 1 new story to me ,

be cause gaol officers are trained and convicts are not .

They are intelligent .

COURT o~DJOURNS .

ON RESUMPrION'

AANKLAER: Om die eentonigheid te breek, het ek n ~ansook on

aan die Hof te rig. Ma~ ons gebruik ma~k van da1rdie bewys­

stukke vir die Tiksters se doeleindes? Dit help hulle ~lo

baie om dit te tik.

Beskuldigde No . 1 is nog besi" met die getuie .

CROSS-EXAmNATIO'1 BY ACCUSED No . 1 (Cont.):

Are there any gangsters in gaol? _.0- If there is

a an ster, they lock him up .

My question to you is: are there ~ny f!<1.nrrstcrs in

the B"vinanspoort Prison? --- Not in the open camp

Is there a ?angstr.r cqlled 'Syndicnte'? ___ I

don I t know him .

Will I be telling a lie if I say that you are ,

g~ngster o~ the syndic~te? --- Blue lie .

You, llkuM and others? - -- I sbrted to know Nkuna

last yoar In Novem~r. -Can a prisoner quarrel anothor? - __ If there i s ~

212 .

quarrel, then the Off icials ~rc there to solve it .

At the ploce where I sleep in C. 2, is it poosiblu

for me to come into eontaet with other prisoners when we ~re

being locked up? --- You say you ~re locked up .

Do I earne into contact with other prisoners bcsiaos

the house monitor? - -- Bofore you rot locked up .

I n C. 2 where the monitor sleop, is it possible for

me to 0 out 'lnd sleep in 3.nother cell? --- If you hn.V0

arr~ng8d to s omebody, then you go .

I put it to you that 011 yo hove said here, it is

a lie . You are still carrying on with the quarrel betweon

you and I? -- - I .. never fought H~I you .

Will you say that I am tolling a lie when I put

it to you th~t you t old me that you ride on donkey-b1ck

and that you will ~et me whenever it may be? --_ It is n

new story .

No further questions by AccusoJ No . 1.

ACCUSED No . 2 has no questions to the witno55 bocnuso the

w1tnens 'lid not make any stn.teoent which h s r f~rlJncc to

him.

CROSS-EXAIUlIlATI OlI BY ACCUSED No . 3 : What is your name? __ _

M .• tiso .

1961 .

Is that the ru11 namj'? - -- Herbert }i- tiso.

How old ,re you? --_ 44 . --When you arrived in Bavinanspoort PrJson? __ _

In which camp? - -- Open camp .

When did you rirst saw mo? -- - Lnte .1963 .

Do you still remember the month? - - - Just about

November or December .

Did I h~ve nny c~nversat1on with you dur1n~ the

period yeu saw Qe? - - - Yes .

-

What kind of conversation it W1S? -- - You reetod

21 •

me .

And t he n? --- And I gr ee t you as wel l .

I s that nll ? --- And I asked you: ,I see you nr e

ussoci atinr with No . 1, what kind of pe r son you ar e? ' And

you sai d you ar e a U.H. I n the full senoe of U. H. ~,eaning

tho unde r world . And I asked you what kind of underworl d

you ar e , of houser obber 3 , housebreak i ng? You s31d: 'No ,

-of the P. A. C. '

---'w"'h"e;;r"e'was t hat ? --- I w·ns s i tting on tho ver andah

of E-block .

Oppos i te which number? -- - Oppos i te F. 1.

Tel l me, is F. 1 a bl ock? - - - Th"t i s in the block

F.

But you sai d you wer e sitt i ng on the veranda~

of E-bl ock? - -- Yes, it 1s the bac!' oppos ite of F.

In front of whi ch colI ? -- - E . 1 .

Wer o t her e any conv1 ct s poss1ng by dur1n~ the t i ne

when wo had the convo r sLt i on? - - - Mor e than one .

CGn you expla i n to me what i s U. W. ? -- - You sai d

th.:1t you are ':l U . vl . - underworld . That means: your deeds

go undorne"th so th~t eve r ybody connot sea i t . You "nd

your ::-.cmbors ,Just know wh"t is tho we :mi n of 1 t . that I just f 1rst met you ond after/I have i ntroduced

myself as U.H. ? - - - I asked you, see i ng you or e associatinp

wi th Accused No . 1 , knowi ng what 0. 1 AccuseJ 1s, then I

want ed to know what ki nd of pe r son you ore .

Wn.s that the r C1.S0n why I intr oducod myself ,"'5 n

U. W. ? --- Yes .

Because of my assoc l~tion wi th Accused ~o . 1 ? __ _

Yes .

Di d I i ntr oduce you to other people wit" tha ex­

capt i on of No . 1 Accused? - -- No .

What ar e your hobbi es? --- I om just a scru gl er .

214. HERBERT .

What do you mean by that? Are you a smoker?

Yes, I am a smoker .

I rl911n your hobbies., what do you mean by s"luf"gler?

- -- I run a smugg l er.

What i s that? --- Smuggler .

PROSECUTOR. Your Worshi p, I submit this

to this case . I ~w.t-qaestion

is highly irrc l wont I oo in put'.

ACCUSED No . 3' WhY, Your Worship?Beeouse the stott witn S5

has not yet exp l ained the word he is utterin~ .

COURT. Yes, cont inue .

ACCUSED No . 3 ; Do you know where I s l ept at the tin. in the

open camp ? - -- Yes .

Where? --- E. 4.

It i s mysterious that I only i ntroduced to you

Accused No .1 and you onl y mentioned tho word th~t I ,r> oc-

quainted and I associato with No . 1 3nd thun I introduc~d

myself as an U.W. Don ' t you think it is funny? --- It w's

not funny, beC:'lllSe I llskod you .

I put it to you that your eviuunce i s nil and

void ~nd ~bsolutely i nadmi ss ible .

No further Quest i ons by Accused No . 3 .

ACCUSED Nos , 2. 6, 7. 8, 9 . 10, 11. 12 . 13 ,nd 14., No

questions .

RE-EXAMINATION BY PPOSECUTOR: Di d Accused No . 3 introduce

Aceusod No . 1 to you? --- I asked lTo . 3 Accusod th,t I seo

hi m 3ssociat inF. with No . 1 Accused, knowi no what kind of

person i s No . 1 . No . 3 told me that he i s a U.W. U.W.

means that he is a P.A.C . and knowing the

the leader of it .

No . 1 Accus_d i" c:=:::::; . ~

So i n other words Accused No . 3 di d not

you to Accused No . 1? - - - He did not .

introduc'lf

•

215' . HOOFEE" . V A."1 ST ADEI! •

JOHANNBS HERMANUS VAN STADEN v. o. a .

ONDERVRAGING DEUR HNKLAER : Mnr . V:m Stadan, was u verlade

jaor n Opperbew".rdar by Bavia~nspoortgevangenis? -- - Dis

r eg .

Van w~nneer tot wanneer? -- - V~n d 0 20ste April

tot die 8ste Augustus 1965.

Waar 1s u tans gestasioneer? - -- Ek is t~ns ge­

stasioneer to Groenpuntgevangon1s in rUe Vrystaat .

Ken u dio baskuld i gdes hi er voor die Hof? Ek

ken van di e beskuldigdes, ek ken hulle nie 'lnal _.ie .

Wattar ken u nie? - -- Ek kon nie No . 12 nio . Di

res ken ek .

Word da!tr goad aangehou to Baviaanspoort S005

,straight j:lckets I ? - __ Nee, nle tot my kenn1s n1e . EL lM,\,. t

nia gesien die tyd "at ek deer was nie .

Is daar enige elektr10se ~nssocrITk1sj1Qne? Neo,

niks wanrvnn ek weet nie . Ek hot glad niks gesien nia .

Het u ooit von hierdie klas artikels gebruik om

geV'lngenes te Uk1.rtel? - - - Nee, ek het nog noolt van hier r1 lc

'rtikels gebruik op gevangenes nie .

GBen verdere vrae deur Annklaer nle .

KRUISONDERVRAGI'1G DEUR BESKULDIGDE ,'0 . 1: Kon u my, mnr .

Van St1Pen? -- - Ek het hom gesien by Buvic,nspoort.

Da'r is die toe kamp en die oop kamp, in welko

een het u my gesien? --- Ek kan dit nie onthou nie .

Soos u esc het d3t u my ken, moet u in staat • woes om to sa in welke eon van di e tweo u my ges1en het?

Ek hat van die ean kaop na die ander een howee d~~Cl ks,

dit is orunoontlik om to so pr·,sies in wattar kaop ek elko

gevane;:eno sien . •

K~ u se of u my ooit in die kantoor Vln die ocp

kamp esien hot? --- Ek kon horn da,r esien hat, ja .

Kan u onthou edurande April en :-le i 1965, toe u

21 6 . v STADEN.

i n Hoof Ot t o sa kant oor geweas het , di t was u twee daar

gewaes? - - - Ek was bai e ke r a snam met hom i n di e kantoor ga -

wees .

He t u my ni e d.er gasien ni e? --- Ek kon hom daar

ge sien hat . • I s daar mi sk i en i ets wet ek gcse hat in u tecn-

woordl ghe i d wnar u saar.;. met Hoof Ot t o was, i n verband oet

di e ander pr i soni ers? - -- Bai e gevengenes het elke deg vir

my van nnder gevan~ene s i ets verto l .

Geon ve r der e vrae deur beskuld i gde No , 1 nl 0 .

KRUISONDERVRAGI NG DEOR BESKULDIGDE No , 2: Hoa ken u my?

By Bnvi aanspoortgevnngeni s gosien .

Wear? - - - Di t kon ook by een van di e twoe inr i g­

t i np,s gewees het .

U behoor t t e weet W:'3.a r d1t was w:1.nt U S0 u ken my?

--- Ek het nlreeds aan boskul di eda No . 1 gcso dnt ek hot vnn

een knmp nn d i e ande r beweeg en di t is ni e moontl i k om te sa

wn3r ok hom gasien hat nl e .

Di e tyd toe u i n d i e Bavi Clanspoort evnngenis gewer k

hot, kan U on t hou hoeves l pr1soni e r s d03r was 1n di e toek~p

asook in die oop k~n? - - - Ek het nooi t belen gestel in di e

tot 'lIe nie, ek het ni e d!1.ar rnoe gOvrerk ni e .

Was daar co i t n tyd gewees wannesr u my voar u

as i en hot? --- Danr kon ~ tyd gewees hot .

As dit so i s, wat sou ok by u korn soek het? __ _

Bai e keer korn hull o met versoeke en klqgtes. Ek kan ni e sy

spes i f i ake gev, l ont hou ni e .

t>Jat sal u daa r v'ln se as ek d i t l1::1.n u !':tcl cl:'\t e:k

noo1t veer u gewees het ni e? --- Ek het reeds Case hy kon

veer my gekom het .

Ek sa di t want da~r i s ba i e prisoni er s i n di e

Bavin~nspeortgevangenis . --- Daar i s ba i e gavan-enas .

Di t ver b3as ~y om te hoor dot u so dat u my ken,

21 7. VAN STADEN.

onder 91 die prisoniers wat daar i net omrede u my vanda.

hier in di e Hof sien? --- Dit is nie noodsaaklik dat ek hom

in my kantoor moet sien om sy ges i g te kan onthou nie . Ek

het tussen hulle rondbeweeg.

Geen verdere vrae deur Beskuldipde No , 2 .

CROSS -EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED No .3 : Can you still recollect

the day when I called in the offices? --- You were called

many times.

I mean for the first time? --- I think so.

What was the date? I can't remember tho iato.

For what purpose I was called in the offices? - -

It was in connection with certain articles which were found

1n your possession .

Can you describe the articles? --- Books, self­

made books on brown paper .

These books, were they completely written or in­

complete? --- As far as I can remember one was completely

written and the other one had a few empty pages in it.

The other book which I have completed was in con­

nection with what? The namo of itself as it is written.

It is in connection with an organisation . As far as I

can remember it 1s called F.e. or S.C. or somethin like

that.

remember.

That was the completed written book? --- Yes .

F. C. or S. C. ? -- - Something like that, I can't

And the other book which was incompleted?

Thore was also something written on front, I cannot re­

member what it is. It is a long time ago .

On the similar day, after you asked me questions

about those books, what happoned? --- I told you that day

that I will charge you for being in possession of un­

censored materials .

21 VAN STADE •

Was I char ged on the same day or l a t er ? - -- I

t ol d you on the same day . The char ge - sheet was made out a

day l at er.

On the ve r y same day? - - - I t coul d be the same

day .

Didn ' t you put me in the isolation on the day of

my inte r vi ew? --- I t i s a l ong time ago . I coul d have .

And that you were not i nves tigat i ng only about the

manner the book i s written , you wer e i nvestigat i nf other

thi ngs wi th exeept i on of the book? -- - Many th i ngs I i nvest i ­

y,ated on that time .

Didn ' t you cross - questioned me 1n connect i on wi th

P. A. C.? That I am a member ? - -- Not as far as I can remom-

ber .

Do you st i l l r ecoll ect that you used to call me

i nt o the offices of the hospi tal? - - - I had my own offi ce,

I neve r cal led you i nto the offi ces of the hospi tal.

Do you still recollect that i n the hospi tal ther e

i s a th i ng, whi ch i s a str a i ght jacket ? -- - I have never

seen a str a i ght j acke t at Bavi aans poort Pr i son .

I n t he offi ces of the hosp i tal of tho Hoad War der

Van Staden there is a dispensary room next t o (1) --- I have

seen a di spensar y r oom.

Do you still r emembe r the day when you locked me

into the di spensar y r oom? --- I have never locked you into

the di spensary r oom .

And do you still r ecall that you dr essed me with

a str a i ght jacket and you pe r for med e l ectrical massage in

my body? --- I have neve r dr essed anybody at Bavi aanspoort

Pr i son 1n a stra i ght jacket and I have never massaged so~o­

body wi th an e l ect r i cal i nstrument at Bavi aanspoort .

Do you still r e ca ll t hat during t he period and

purpose of the time you pe r for ming the str a i ght jacket, I am

21 9. VAN ST ADE:~ •

sorry, during the electric massage on my body, you were

askin. me questions that I should submit that I am a P.A. C.

and the chairman in the open camp? --- I never asked you a

question like that.

Do you know that you sent me up to the Court

where my caso was charged?

Bezuidonhout .

Ye s, in the office of Col.

Solomon Nkuna, didn ' t he tell you after I was

convicted about false statement he made against myself that

I am a P. A.C . ? --- He never made a statement, he never told

me anything about it.

When I was convicted, what happened to me? - - ­

As far as I remember you ware convicted to have? lashes.

After that, what happened? What was your recom­

mendation after I got the 5 lashes? You went to the

maximum prison, into the cell where the people who work

at the stono- yard, at that cell .

What is the name of that place, the stone -yard?

--- The place of the stone -yard .

What is the name of it? It has got a special

name it is called . --- I canlt remember a special name .

What ki nd of people were there in that stone­

yard? Or in that camp? --- Prisoners .

Wh~t sort of prisoners? --- As far as I can re­

member most of them were C and D groups .

Were they not prisoners who were dangerous to

others or violent prisoners, like gangsters? --- I don ' t

know .

You still recollect the other day when we came

from the spans that you have told the other prisoners, who

were gangsters, that they should hammer me? --- I have never

said anything like that to any prisoner .

Do you still recollect that the very same prisoners

220. VAN STADE~.

you have instrueted that they should kill me because you are

goin~ to indemnify their position if they are arrested? --­

I never said something like that.

Do you still recall that you told them that they

should kill me because I am a criminal, I should not live

amongst them because I am misleading them? --- I nover said

something like that .

If a witness is to come in Court and prove it,

will they be lying? --- They will be lyin~ .

No further questions by Accused No . 3.

COURT: What is a straight jacket? --- Edolagbare, dit

word ebruik slags, sever oy kennls strek, op modiese VDor ­

skrif vir evangenes wat moontllk, ek sal S9 met geweld

dreig, mal word en onbeheerbaar is . Dan word dit slegs op

mediese voorskrif die gevangene daar ingesit om hom in be-

dwang to hou .

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR BESKULDIGDE No . 5: Se u dat u my van

die Bavlaanspoortgevangenis ken? Dis reg .

Van wanneer af? -- - Ek hat hom saam met a1 die

ander cavan enes daar gesien, ek kan nie n spesifieke datum •

S8 nie .

As al die prisoniers wat in die Baviaanspoort ­

gevan~enis is, hiernatoe gebrlng word, sal u kan sa dat u

hulle daar gesien het? --- Die van wie ek die gesigte kan

onthou, ja .

Ken u onthou dat u my na u kantoor eendag geroep

het, want ok was een van die mense wat van Stoffberg af

gekom het? --- Ek het die evangenes almal gesian wat Van

Groenpuntgavangenis koe, van Stoffberg af .

Maar kan u onthou dat u party van die prisoniors

gosien het, hulle spasiaal na u kantoor laot kom het? __ _

Ek hat 01 die gevangenes van Stoffberggovangenis gasian .

Ek verstaen dit, maar ek praat nou i.v . m. 1io vyf

221. VA." STADEN.

wat U spesiaal laat reap hat? --- Ek weet nie van gevangenes

wat ek spesiaal laat roep het nie .

Het u mense se klagtes daar in die tronk aanvaar?

--- Sover die klagtes met my werk aangegaan het, het ek daar­

na geluister en probeer oplos .

As prisoniers van die Baviaanspoortgevangonis hier ­

natoe kom en getuig dat u vir die ander prisoniers aangehits • het om onder mek,ar te baklei, sal u se dat hulle n leuen

vertel? --- Hulle vertel leuens, ja .

Die hele tronk? --- ja.

Vir welke rede sal dit uees? Wet het hulle teen

u? --- Ek glo nie hulle sal almal so n klagte indien nie.

Want dit het nooit gebeur nie .

Maar die dinge wat U gese het terwyl ons daar in

die gang gestaan het dat hulle vir ons daar in die ramkamp

moet doodmaak want ons is slegte mense, hat die under dit

nie • ehoor nie? --- Ek het dit nog nooit gese nie .

Geen verdere vrae deur beskuldigde No . 5.

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR BESKULDIGDE No , 6: So u dat u my ken?

-- - Ek kan sy gesig onthou.

Waar en wanneer het u my gesien, na u mening? __ _

Ek hat hom te Bavlaanspoortgovangenis gas1on .

Wat sa scort pri sonler onder die ander prisoniere

was ek? - -- Hy was aen van die gevangenes gewees .

Daar is soorte prisoniers daar, daar is die 26 ' s,

27's, 28's, airfarce, big fives, fast elevens en die syndi­

cate . Aan watter roep het ek behoort? --- Onmoontlik om

te sa aan watter groep van elk van 2,000 behoort.

HOF: Die klassifikasie wet hy genoem hat, is dit die

Tronk klassifikasie of is dit sy eie klassifikasio? __ _

Sover dit my kennis strek is dit sy eie klassifikasie en

bendes . Dit is eintlik n samestelling van bendes .

BESKULDIGDE No . 6: Sedert ek in die ramkamp ingegaan hot,

•

222. VAN STADEN.

het u my ooit daar ges i en? --- Ek het gevangenes in die

ramkamp gesien.

Het u my nl e onder hull e ~esien ni e? --- Ek kan

ni e onthou waar ek hom ge sien hat nie .

Ja , ek sal glo u sal dit nie kan onthou nie want

u kan nie eer s die woorde wat u daar 1n cia gan • rese het,

toe cns daar gest aan het , onthou ni e , toe u aan die undor

prisoni e r s go s ':; het dat hulle ons met hamors moet 'loodsla'tn

want ons is slegte mense . - - - Ek weet niks daarvan nf nio .

Geen verder e vrae deur Beskuldigde No . 6 ni e .

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR BESKULDIGDE No . 7: U was mos die hoof

en so~gens het u in die toekamp in egaan? -- - Ek het in 4io

toekamp in egaan somtyds en eomtyds in die oopkrunp in die

og end .

Wat hat u gedoen wanneer u 1n die jaart van die too-

kamp ingaan? -- - Ek het gewoonlik n Offisier op inspeksio

vergesel .

Was u elke ke,r deur n Offls1or verge scI? --- Neo,

ek hot somtyds aIleen ingegaan.

Wat het u daar by die medisyne gedoen wqar dio

prisoniers medisyne moet drink? Ek het sle s daar by

dio hospitaal ingegaan, ek het niks dear gedoen nie . My

work was nie in die hospitaal gewees nie.

Nie in di e hospitaal nie, maar naby die plek waar

die prisonl ers was waar die medisynek~s staan? --- Ek het

slees maar daar rondgestaan en gekyk dat dit ordelik gaan .

Sien u at dit ordelik aan met n ki er i e, deur

die prisoni ers te sl~nn?

met n ki er i e geslaan nie .

Ek het no nooit n gevangene

Wil u se dat ek u nou valslik beskuldig? - - - Di s

rog .

Waar oor ? --- Di e rede weet ok ni e .

Het ons co i t mlski en vantevore rus1e ehad? __ _

22 VAN STADEN.

Ni e s eve r ek weet nle . .

Waarom sal ek u dan valslik beskuldi g deur ta se

dat u ons ges l aan het? - - - Ek sa l nie wcet wet di e redo is

nie .

As wat sa soort per soon hat u my in dnerdia tronk

geken, want U 58 u ken my? - - - Ek hat hom net van s i en gokon,

ek het nie vaal met hom te doeno gahad nio.

I . u seker dat u my ken? -- - Natuurlik kcn ek hom.

Wie is ek? Ek ken hom aan sy ~es i e, ek ken

nie sy naam nie .

I n watter sel hat ek geslaap? --- Ek weet nie van

elke spasifieke evangene van 2,000 in wattor sel hy slaap

nie .

As u n per soon dlkwels sien, dan moet u i n staat

waos waar u hom gesien het. My VTaag aan u is: i n w~tter

v~n di e twao kaope hot u my dikwcls as i an? By di e

maks i mum inrigt ing.

Omdat ek vir u gase hat dat u d i e prisoniers daar

geslnnn het toe hull e med i syne gedrink het? --- Nee , ek kan

onthou hy was daar .

Nee, ek is ni e besig om te lag ni e, ek is kwaad .

U mn. nie lag ni e .

Geen ve rdere vrae deur Beskul~ l ~de NO t? nie .

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR BESKUWI GDE No . 8: Ken u my? Ek

herken sy ges i g, ek weet ni e wet sy naam is nie .

Vnnwaar af ken u my ges l g ? --- Bavi aanspoort ­

evangenis .

Watter pl ek in Bavi aanspoor t? --- In een van di e

twee inrigtings .

Kan u onthou dat u di e witslnners in di a gang aan­

ch i ts het om ons dood te maak? - - - Ek hat nog nooit ie­

mand aangehits om i emand dood te maak nia •

Het u nie • ese dat ons slegte mense 1s nie? __ _

224. VAN STADEN.

Nee, ek hat nog nco it s o ge se nle . • As ek getuies daaromtrent r eap , wat sal use? ---

Hy kan hulle maar r oep .

Geen verdere vrae deur Beskuld i gde No .8:

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR BESKULDI DE No . 2: Ken u my?

Baie goed .

ne .

Vanwaar af? -- - Oak van Bavi aanspoortgevnnr,enis af.

As wat ken u my dae r in Bavl aanspoort? --- Gevange -

I n wattcr sel het ok geslaap in di e Bavi nnnspoort­

gevangeni s ? --- Ek weet nie in watter sel hy geslnap het

ni e . Gevangenes skuif somtyds rond ook nog .

Hoe wissel hulle van sel ns sel? Sorntyds

pl aes di e beamptes wat in beve l is van die binneplnas, hulle

oor na n ander sel toe .

Vir welke redo? --- Di t s:'ll die beampto W1.t i n dio

• binnoplaas work kan se.

Kan u di e 17do Juni e verlede jour onthou? - --

Daar was so 'n d:1(! gewees, Ja.

Wat hat tussen u en my daardi e gebeur? --- Ek kan

nie onthou wat op daer di e spes1fieke dag gebeur het nie .

v/aarom ken u dit ni e onthou nie? - -- Ek het elks

dag met verskillende gevalle te doen en ek kan nie een

spesifieke eon uitsonder ni e , tensy di e spes i fieke gev~l

~ uitsonderinr van di e ander gevalle was .

M~ar as dear ~ geve l plaasvind op ~ s ekere da ,

sal hy verskil v~n di e ~evnl w~t di e vol gende dar pl aasvinl?

Ni e noodwendig nie.

Ken u vir Marshall Solomon Nkuna? --- Ek ken hom,

ja .

K~ u onthou dat u my daar by die i sol a9 i e opgo­

s l uit het ? --- Ek kon horn daar toegesluit het .

Ek wil he u moet met sekorheid se . U rn~g nie sa

225. VAN STADEN.

dlt k,n so wees nle . --- Hy was ln dle l s01as19 gewees .

Wle hat my daar opgeslult? --- Daar work n Bnntoe­

hoofbewaarder, hy s lult dl e l s01as l 0 toe.

Het ek mlskion my nn daar di a Bentoehoofbewaar der

geneem of hot daard i e Bantoebewaar dor oie mag om n par soon

to gaan haal en hom daar op te sluit?

doen dit in opd r ag van 'n seni or beampte .

Di e Bantoebewaar dor

S005 wle? -- - Opperbewaardcr vln di e Gev~ngenis ,

Hoofbewearder, Offisicre .

Wat was u amp.t ltel daard l e tyd gewees? --- Opper-

bewaarder .

Was u amp hosr as die Bewaarder s I n wat monse dnar

opgesluit het? -- - Natuurlik .

As ek dit aan u stel dat u my daar opgesluit hot?

--- Ek kon hom de,r t oeges l uit het .

K~n u onthou toe u dle dec sano ~t Marshall

Solomon NkuM i n se l No .E. 4 .ekom het wear ek opgesluit was?

--- Ek kan ni e d i e speslf1eke dag onthou n1e .

Kan u onthou dat Solomon Nkuna daar gokoo het , my

evang hat en n v l nger oa my r,ewys hat? Toe ek hom vra wat

• aangaan hot u geso ek moet stilbly want ek i s n pr i soni er ?

-- - Ek waot nie dl~rvan nic . • U sa u weet ni e daarvan oie, maar ek stel 1it ~nn

u dat soiets pl aas evind het . -- - Ek weot nie daar vnn nie .

Kan u di e dag onthou toe u my on u knntoor Genoam

het? --- Hy was al i n my kantoor gewees .

I s dit nou n vrnng of i s dit n antwoord? --- Dit

ls n antwoor d . • Kun U onthou nat u n~ my gose hat dlt u n m~ 1s

wet doodmaak terwyl hy lag? Kan u ml ski en aan ons ver dui de­

lik wat dit beteken? --- Ek kan dit nie ver dui delik nie w~t

ek het dit nooit gess nie .

Hoe kan u dit nou vir my mooi du i del ik ~aak soant

I

226 . VAN STADEN .

ek kan si en dnt u dit nie gese het nie?

AANKLAER: Edcl agb,r e , di e getuie het dnnrop genntwoor d . Die

beskuldigde moet sy antwoor d ~anvanr . Die getuie so hy het

dit nie geso nie .

Geen verdere vrae dour Boskul d1rde q nio .

BESKUIDIGDES Nos . 10, 11,12, 13 , 14: Geen vrae nie .

JACOB BUTCHER KNAOU (KHUNOU ( ?)) v. o . c . (Pr not Tsw~n~ . )

ONDERVRAGING DEUR AANKLAER, Jy dien tnns n lewenslange

vonnis van gevnngen1sstraf uit te Bav i1.nnspoortgcVrtni·en1s ,

weens moord? --- Dis reg .

Watter standerd het jy op skool gesl,ag? --- St . ?

Waar hot jy skool gegaan? --- St .Mary Catholic

School, Kru ersdorp .

Voordat jy begin hot om hierdie vonni s uit te dian,

voor jou arrestnsie, was jy ooit bcmoe i d met aie A.N. C. of

di o P.A . C. ? --- Noe, ek het niks met di e A.N. C. te do en ge-

had nie .

I s jy i n Juni o 1962 oor eplaas van Witbank-

gevan benls na Baviaans poort evangen1s? --- D1t is reg .

Too jy daar sangekom het, in watter afdaling tc

Bavi aanspoort is jy epl~as? --- Ek was nn di e oop kamp too

gGstuur .

Ho t jy altyd in die oop kamp gebly of i s jy later

oar eplans na n ander kamp toe? --- Latcr i s ek oor~ep~

oop kamp te Baviaans-

na di e toe kamp, d .w. s . C-kamp .

Too jy in Junic 1962 i n di e

poort ekom het , het jy eni ge van di e

di e Hof daar ontmoct? - - - Ja .

beSkula igdeS~ .voor

Wie het jy daar ont moet? --- No . 1 en No . 3 .

Wanneer het No . 3 danr ekorn in di e oop kamp?

In 1963 .

I s jy op oen of ander stadium ~nader deur cen

•

•

227 . JACOB K': AOU .

van di e tweo beskuldigdos wie se name jy nou hier onoem

hot? --- Ja.

Dour wio is jy gonuder? --- N~

Wanneer was dit , kan jy onthou? - - - Ek kan nio

dio mu~nd onthou nie, maar dit i s godur ondo

toe ek duar ekom hot .

1962 , --Wear hat hy jou genador? -- - In di e por seel van

di e tronk by d i e oop kemp .

w~t was sy r ede dut hy jeu gonader het? --- Hy

• het gese hy wil met my kom praot .

En toe? -- - W~nt hy ken my .

Het jy hom vantevore dan ~eken? - - - Ek hot hom

geken .

Van wannecr rlf? --- Ek was saam met hom i n \oJitbank

in 1960. • Toe hy nou vir jou so so, wat hot too gobour? ---

Hy he t vir my • eso: , Jy kry my by di e oop kamp en ok wil mot

jou praat .' Hy het toe vir my geso hy wil met my praat

i . v . m. die P. A. C.

Hot julIe toe di e oespr ek daar ehad of wanneer

het julIe hi er di o espr ek oar di e P. A. C. gehad? -- - Ons hot

die geoprok dour "ehad .

Wie was nog toenwoordi g? -- - Op dnardi e s t adium

was not ons twee aIleen .

Het julIe toe doar oar oi e P. A. C. Gepr aat? --- Jo.

En toe, wat he t hy vir jou daaromt r ent gase? - - ­

Hy hot vir my gase ek i s swaar gestr af .

Jy of hy? - - - (Talk : die getui o , Edela bare )

Ja? --- En hy het ese : ,Aangosien jy swoar ge ­

straf is, wil ek ma t jou pruat sodat jy ken ve~ vir jou

l~d . ' Ek vra t oe vir hom toe moet ons vag on hy sa too

vir my hy sal vir my so hoe . • Hy hat vir my gese ons 0,1

baklei dour die Polisie eers doad te maak en di e wit mensa.

•

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•

228 . JACOB KNAOO .

Hy het toe ese: nadat ons hulle doodgemaak het, salons di e

Bl ankes wat daar by di e Tr onk r ond woon se vrouens doodmaak .

D~n salons nn Pr etoria toe gaan en hi er op Pretoria sal ens

dan di e ander afdol in~s v~n di e P. A.C. teokom, en d it~&anr

di e oorlo dan sal begin .

Hot hy jou ~evra om aan te sluit by di e P.A . C.?

--- Ja .

Op watter stadium? --- Op daard i e se l fde stadium

toe ons daaroor ~opr~at ha t .

Wet was jou houd ing tOe daar omtrent? --- Op daardic

stad i um hat ek vir hom gase ons sal weer daaroor pr~at .

En toe? --- Later op n under dug daarna het hy my

woer teogekom.

Kun jy onthou hoelank daarna dit was ? --- nit was

in die begin v,n 1963, die tweedo keer . --Waar het julle mekaar too ontmoet? - -- Op oie twoo-

de ge l eentheid het ons weer by di e oop kemp in di e perscel,

nndat hullo ons uitgeha,l het , gepraat .

Was julle alluen of was daar i emnnd by toe julle

hi er die keer esels het? --- Ek en hy was alleen • • En toe? --- Hy se toe vir my: ,Kyk man, ok wil nie

vir jou n slegtowcrk gee in hierdie or ganises i e ni e •• '

Watter organi sasie? --- Van di e P. A. C.

Ja? --- Hy sa di e mense hou van my en jy hou ook

van hulle, hulle oerbied jou en jy eerbi edi hullo , en

daar om sal ek ni e vi r jou n s l e te wer k gee nie . Maar ok

wil he jy moet annsluit . Hy stel toe twee voorbeelde .,an

my .

Wat was di e twee voor beel de? - -- Hy sa daar is dio

een van di e dor p en di e een van di e veld .

Wat beteken dit nou? ---

TOLK AAN HOF: Edelagbare, ek wil doodeerlik wees teenoor

dio Hof , ek kry seke r e woorde van dio etui " wat ek nie

•

•

•

•

•

t

229 . JACOB KNAOU .

verstaan nie en ek voel dat ek liewers myse lf wil onttr ek

vnn hierdi e gotui c af . Ek sal ~ nnder talk pr obeer kry wat

die getui enis kan oortolk . (Vol gende Talk : Samuel Letsoje . )

AANKLAER AAN GETUIE: Jy sa beskuldigde No . 1 het v~n di e

veld en van d i e dorp epraat . Wat bedoel jy daareee? ---

Hy het ~ vergolyking gomaak van ~ hand van di e ve l d en ~ hand

van daar by die hui s .

Hot jy geweet \{at hy daar eee bodoe l het? --- Nee .

Het jy hom nie ~evra wat hy daarmee bedoel ni o?

--- Ek het hom daaromtrent gevra .

En toe, wat sa hy? - -- Too het hy aan my vorduide ­

lik wat dat daar die hondo maak . • • Wat het hy geso wat maak di e honde? --- Hy h~t case

op ~ sekero ~eleenthe id het di e veld hand en di e hand van die

dorp mekaar teegekoe. Di e dor p hond het toe aan di o veld

hand govra: waaroe bly jy daar in di e veld? Di e veld hond • het toe geantwoord en gese : Dit is aan"enaam daar vir my in

1i e veld, en die dor p hond het toe gese : hi er di e in di o

dor p i s dit baie aan enaam, jy moet hier in die dorp kom bly.

En di e veld hand het toe gevra: wanneer i s d i o dor pslewe

lekker? Di e dorp hand het toe eantwoor d en gese: hi er in

die dorp i s dit bai e aan~enaam want ek het my huis, ok het

my ~ie bard waar i n kos is, as dit koud i s dan trek ek kl er e

aan , dan gean ek in d i e huis in en s it by di e vuur en dan

is dit baie lekker warm in die huis en ek bring ~ baio aan­

,cname lewe hier deur, en jy daar in di e veld jy hardl oop

rand jy is bang vir di e ander di er a . • I s dit al wat hy omtrent hie r di e twee honde 'ese

het, of hat hy nag uitgebrei daar op? --- Hy hot uit~ebrei

daarop .

Gaan voort . --- Die veld hand hot too vir orp

hand gevra : wat is hierdie ding om jou nek? Di e dorp honl

het toe geantwoor d en gese: dit is ~ band en ek word l"arnoe

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230 . JACOB KNAOU.

vasgemaak in die nag . Die veld hand het toe evra : waaroCl

maak hulle julIe dan vas? En die dor p hand het toe geant-

woor~ • hulle wil en ~eso : nie he dat ek r and moe t l oop nio,

wil he ek hon~ het toe • hullo ",oet stil bly . Die ve l d gase:

ek is boter af daar in die ve l d . Al het jy 00 1 0 kos daar

in di e dorp en ook jou e i e huis, maar dit sal my nie baat

nie want di e moe ilikhoJ1 i s daar d i e band am jou nek. Toe

hot hy aan my vor dui de lik wie van d i e tweo honde di e besto

l owe .

Hoe het hy nou ~ese watter hon ~ loof J. l e te sto?

Hy hot my toe gevrD. watter een van di e twa9 honde, dink

ek, leef di e beste . Ek het toe ~eantwoord : ,1 1e een wat in

-l i o veld bly. Toe het hy -;ese: wat be1oo1 ek daar mee?

Ek het eantwoord : di e hand van <1 i o va ld loop rond net waar

• hy wll on hy slaap net daar waar hy wil. Hy hot toe ::;0 S0:

nou, hierdle dor p hond hy Is net soos_ons.

Wie is I ons I? --- Hy het gase ok en hy, ~l1e swar t •

monse . Hy hot gase a1 ~ebeur wat oakal , ons, d i e swart ---;.

mense , Is net soos 1 i e ,1or p hond wat met In band om di e noy

vasgomaak Is. Daarna het ek aan hom gase ek be~ryp a lIas .

Ek het toe vir hoc gese die tyd is kart vir ons en ons hot

toe uitookaar ult ge aan .

Het julIe too later weer ,esols oar d i e aanre ­

l oenthe i d? --- Ja .

Was dit op di esa lfde pl ek of was dit in n sel, of

waar was di t? Op daar oie betr okke dar ho t ons op di e

stoep cesit, buitekant di e tronkgobou op di e stoep .

ek nie .

Di e stoep van wattor blok? --- Van C-blok .

Naby watter se l? --- Naby C. 2 scI, waar ons slaap .

Jy en wie? --- Waar beskuldi~de No . 1 s l aap, nie

Was julIo twee aIl een t O€ julle daar op die stoep

csit en P,9sels het? Dit was ek en beskuldigde No . 1, ------.::...--

•

•

,

,

•

•

231. JACOB KNAOU.

maar later hat beskuldigde No . 3 ook by ons aan eslui t .

Waaroor is die gesprek gevoer? --- Hy het my -evra

wat 1s my opini e van die onderwerp waaroor ons repraat h t.

Wie het 1it gevra? --- Beskuldigde No . 1.

Watter onderwerp het julle nou oor gesels? - -- On3

het omtrent die P. A.C . gepraat .

Waarvoor staan die lettors P. A.C . --- Pan Africanist

Congross .

Wat het jy daarop oantwoord? --- Ek het toe in"o-• stem en goso ek sal oak aansluit as 'n 11' van daard1e or n··

nisasie .

Watter organisasie? --- Die P. A.C . or anisasie.

Die Pan Africanist Congress? -- - Ja .

Het jy daar en dan aangesluit of het jy oors by

n later eleentheid aangesluit? - -- Hy het geSe hy sal my

na ~1e ver~adcr ing toe neem, waar ek opgelei sal word.

Het hy gese wanneer die vergaderin gohou sal word?

--- Hy het "eSe hy sal laat weet wanneer die vergadering

ehou sal word.

Terwyl jy en boskul,'ide 110 . 1 nou oor die P •. 4.C.

·esols hot, wat het boskul1i~de No . 3 edoen? --- Hy het ook

Gepraat .

Wat het hy bese? • --- Hy het ~,'se ok moonie banF

word nie .

• Waarvoor nie? - -- Hy het gese niks sal my oorkom

nio .

Wat moes jy ~aak? - -- Hy het • eso ek moenie ban~

wees nio, niks sal my oorkom nis, omtront wat ons gepraat

het daar .

Het hy ook by jou aan e~rin" dat jy moes aansluit

of het hy niks verder 2eSe nie? --- Hy het gese jy moenie

ban wees nio, ons wil net he jy moet oak n lid van 11e

or.anisasie wees.

f

•

I

•

•

232 . JACOB lC1ACTJ .

Wat t er or ganisas i e? -- - Di e P. A. C.

Het jull e t oe ve rder gesels of i s julIe toe ui t­

mekaar uit ? - -- Ons het toe uitmekaar ge aan .

Wat nou van hi ar di e ver gadering wanrvan beskul ­

di goe No . 1 van gepraat het waarheen hy jou sou ui tnooi?

--- Hy het my l aat weet en ok he t t oe di e ver gadering by e -

woon .

Hoe l ank was di t nedet julIe di e espr ek daar

ehad hot? --- Di t was toe i n 1964. -!loevee l dae nadat julle di e resprek reh,d het,

ken jy onthou? - - - Ek kan ni e ont hou ni e .

Waar i s d i e vor~adering gehou? - - - I n C. 2 so l

waar beskuld i gde No . 1 s l aap .

Wi e was alnal teenwoor di r op hi er d i e ve r gaderin~?

--- Di t was myse l f, besku l di gde No . 1 , No.3, eno Her~ert

Bati so .

W~s hy n etui e hi er ? --- Ja , hy was n etui e •

Ja? --- Ene Goor ge Tibane , e n n ander eon hy is

Mut sumi (?) ~enoem , ek onthou nie sy voornaam ni o .

Si en jy hom vandag hi er ? - - - Nee , hy i s vanda.

ni o hi er ni e, hy i s ont sl ean .

Was daar n voor si t t er op ~ ie vergader i nr? ---

Daar was eon .

Wi c was die voor sitter? --- Besku11i gdo No . 3.

Wat he t by daar di e ve r gaderin2 pi aas gevinJ? ~- ­

Beskul di rdo No . 3 he t me t my epr aat, hy was di e voor sitter

gowees .

Wat het hy aan jou gese ? --- Hy het rese ek moe t

nou kenni s neem dat ek my aan di e organi saS i e sal onderwer p

en ek sal l ui ster na all es wat deur di o l e i er s gese wor d.

Het jy n eed p'enee~ am n lid te wor d van di e Pan

Af ricani st Congr ess? - - - Ja, ek he t n eed geneem.

Wi e het di e eed af geneem? --- Beskul di -de 110 . 3 .

• •

,

,

• •

233 . JACOB KNAOU .

Hoe het jy gemaak toe jy di e eed geneem ho t? - - ­

Hy het gase ek moet my re terhand opsteek .

Bet jy di t gedoan? --- Ek het dit gedoon • • Het hy eni gi ets aan jou voor~ese too jy ,Ue ee-l

af ele het? --- Ja .

Wet het hy "n jou voor ~oso? --- Hy hot ~esc

ek moet nou weet dat ek di e eed noem . Hy hot dit in

En~e ls goso . Hy het gase ek moet woet ant ek moe t

, sacrif ice , suffer and ser ve '.

Het jy jou instemming laar mee betuib• of wat

was jou houling? Ja. ek hat l i t betu i g .

Is jou naam miskion necrseskrywe? --- Jo. Ut

was op d~ard ie selfde dag neer eskr yf .

Wio het dit neergeskryf? --- Beskulc i ~da 110 . 1 .

Waar in of waarop hot hy nit neorgeskryf?

Op In I foolscap' .

Popi er? Ja .

Waar hot hy ' it vandaan gekry? Hot jy 'esien

wear hat hy dit uit chaal of het hy dit maar in sy hand

gehad? --- Hy het dit in sy hand gehad toe di e vergadering

gohou was .

SAAK UITGESTEL TOT 7 JANUARIE 1966.

Almal in hegtenis gehou te wor d .

/ ....

.. Collection Number: AD1901

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trial. Court Record. 1958~1978

PUBLISHER: Publisher· Historica l Papers, University of the Wrtwat .... ,..nd L0C8/1OfI • Johann •• burg

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