volvoltage doubler desulfatortage doubler desulfator design in pulse charging and desu

8/9/2019 VolVoltage Doubler Desulfatortage Doubler Desulfator Design in Pulse Charging and Desu

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Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design

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Tucsonshooter Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design Lead [-]

Posts: 557Nov 18 10 4:36 PM

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Time for a new design

This new design fills the gap between the low power kick back and the direct drive desulfators and has features that a lot ofyou w ill like.

Here is a list of its features:

- It is as simple as the kick back circuit but capable of >30 amp pulses. - No custom inductors!! All parts are off the shelf. - Pow ered from the battery. - Pulse width and rate fully variable. - Very efficient (75 to 85% depending on load) - No audible sound - Very fast rise and fall times

Looks a lot like the old kick back circuit.

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Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design in Pulse Charging and Desulfation Forum 7.1.2015

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I use th e big blue cap (51,000uF), a powe r supply and low ohm resistors to simulate a batte ry. This is much more stablethan using a rea l battery,and I can change the "internal resistance" very easily.

These are all the sa me parts we are use to using. The 555 timer circuit is right out of a kick back design. The TC4426replaces the PNP transistor Mosfe t driver. (You can replace the TC4426 w ith the PNP Transistor or an inverting totem poledriver if nee ded.)




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Heres how it works. When the Mosfet is off, the two caps are charged up to the batte ry voltage (13V) through the inductors. When the Mosfetturns on the capa citors are now in series, generating a high current 24 volt poten tial that discharges into the ba ttery. It is apretty simple design and g ene rates a lot of current. The de sulfating pulse voltage w ill always be double the batte ry voltageminus res istive loss es (ESR, on resistance,etc.) As the ba ttery voltage rises so w ill the outp ut of this circuit.

The following photos were measured under the following conditions: - Pulse width = 7 microseconds - Pulse rate = 1700 Hz - Battery internal resistance = .25 ohms - Battery voltage = 13 volts




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This shows 22 volts peak (9 volts above the ba ttery voltage)




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This shows 34 Amps peak current pulse (measured with a pearson current transformer)

The equa sion to calculate the peak current (with no losses) is as follows:

Vin X Iin / (Vpeak - Vbat) X DF = peak current

Vin = Input voltage to the circuit (13 volts)Iin = Average input current to the circuit (.371 amps)Vpeak = Peak voltage seen across the battery (22 volts)Vbat = battery voltage (13 Volts)DF = Duty factor (.000007 X 1700 = .0119)

This means that the calculated peak current with no losses should be 46 amps.

Another way to calculate peak current is: (Vpeak - Vbat) / battery resistance = peak current. This formula yelds 36amps.

Recap of peak current measurenents and calculations: Calculated no loss - 46 amps Measured pearson CT - 34 amps

Calculated from voltage and current - 36 amps

So far I am thrilled with the performance and the simplicity of this circuit.

More details in the next posts

Mark

Last Edited By: TucsonshooterNov 18 10 4:39 PM. Edited 1 time.

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6/15

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Tucsonshooter Parts Descriptions - Inductors #1 [-]

Posts: 557Nov 18 10 5:16 PM

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The following posts defines the parameters for the parts used in the Voltage Doubler desulfator.

I tried to do awa y with inductors all together but I could not get the performance w ith out them. But the good new s is thatthey are not critical.

The inductors do two things in this circuit:1. Provide a DC path to charge the capacitors. This is such a long time that the re is no inductance involved, just the coilresistance, which is very low.2. When the Mosfet turns on, the inductors "get o ut of the wa y" of the current flow.

I experimented using resistors instead o f inductors. 1 ohm 2 watt resistors gave the best res ults. This came at the cost oflower o utput, less e fficiency, and s lower rise time.

Again the tw o inductors are no t critical. I suggest a minimum inductance of 100 uH. I used a s low as 10 uH but had a littlelower output than when I use more inductance. The difference in output between a 220 uH and a 1000uH inductor is about1 volt. All of the pictures in the previous post use d 1000uH inductors. The bigges t reason tha t I used 1000uH inductor is thatI had a bunch of them.

The inductors should not be these ultra miniture types that w ill fit on a pencil eraser. They will saturate too quickly and willsoak po we r out of the circuit. The 1000uH inductors I used w ere a Pulse Electronics PE-53614. The core is about 1/2 inch indiameter and 1/4 inch high.

It does no t matter if they are Ferrite or Powde red Iron.

Radio Shack sells a 150 uH choke tha t would wo rk just fine. I suggest that you can ge t a bette r deal on Ebay.

Again, the most importance purpose tha t these inductors have is to be high impedance (get out of the w ay) when theMosfet fires. They store no e nergy. In fact D2 and D3 a re there to abso rb any inductive kick back they produce. If you wou ldlike to have a short nega tive output pulse after the d esulfating pulse, just remove D2 and D3

Mark

Last Edited By: TucsonshooterNov 18 10 5:22 PM. Edited 1 times.

Tucsonshooter Parts Descriptions - Output Capacitors and Q1 #2 [-]

ESR ESR ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance)

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Posts: 557Nov 18 10 5:48 PM

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Resistance is not your friend. It makes energy disappear (into hea t). The ESR of C6 and C7 w ill make a huge difference inthe outp ut of this circuit. I started with 2200uF 25V caps. When the Mosfets fired the vo ltage across them instantly droppedlike a rock. A clear effect of ESR. Next was 6800uF 25V caps. Better, less drop due to ESR. Finally, 6800uF 63 volt caps. Lessthan a volt drop due to ESR.

Q1 - Just use a good Mosfet w ith very low on res istance. The IRF1404 is very common and cheap.

You will see more improvement w ith selecting the lowest ESR caps (there are two o f them, twice the ESR.)

desulfator2 Congratulations on an innovative and simple design #3 [-]

Posts: 1059Nov 18 10 6:52 PM

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Congratulations on a n elegant, innovative and simple des ign.

Thank you for all your valuable contributions.

We ll done Mark!

You have e arned an entry in the Historical Record.

Don

Last Edited By: desulfator2Nov 18 10 6:56 PM. Edited 3 times.

tadgesualdo #4 [-]

Posts: 71Nov 18 10 8:34 PM

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Mark,

Nice w ork!!! Only one thing, I don't see how the caps are in se ries the y look as though the y are in parallel to me in thecircuit. Also since bo th inductors are 100uH, is this crytical, as long as they are the sa me would it not w ork the sa me.

This circuit to me se ems to ha ve pote ntial for motor run capacitors becaus e of the ir very low ESR, it see ms to me they w ouldalso sto re more ene rgy than an electrolytic. I tried bypassing the electrolytic caps in my pulser w ith film caps, but this really

didn't work like a larger single cap with low er ESR total. I can't wait to try this circuit and te st it out, it looks intriguing.

Terry

Tucsonshooter #5 [-]

Terry Inductors are time se nsitive components . If the voltage a cross them changes s lowly the inductor will exhibit a very lowresistance. This is good to charge up the caps during the long time betw een p ulses. Then whe n the Mosfet fires, theinductors will exhibit a very high resistance because the voltages are changing very fast. This is the fundamentalcharacteristic of an inductor. Now look again at the figure below. Whe n the Mosfe ts turn on the inductors basically disappea rfrom the circuit and the caps are now in series. Coo l stuff isn't it.

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Posts: 557Nov 18 10 11:27 PM

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Tucsonshooter Run/Start caps #6 [-]

Posts: 557Nov 19 10 1:43 PM

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Terry You mentioned using run caps before s o I looked a t some specs on run/start caps. There w ere pretty vague. So I decidedto do an e xperiment.

I wired in tw o 80 uF run caps into the circuit.

The following scope photos were taken at the same parameters as the first post. (7 us PW, 1700 rate, .25 bat. resistance)

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9/15

The above shows the voltage across the load with a 80 uF run cap. It shows a low ESR but also shows a lot of inductance.

The above is the current w aveform. (one volt per amp) Again it show s a lot of inductance in the cap.

For comparison th e following are wave forms for a 2200 uf e lectrolytic and a 100 uf e lectrolytic caps:




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Above - 2200uf 25V voltage wave form

Above - 100uF 35V voltage waveform

The ESR of the run caps a re very low but they are very inductive. Also they are very large. A 100uF e lectrolytic that is ha lf thesize o f a tube of lip balm almost out pe rformed it. Still I am impresse d that they did as we ll as they did.

An odd thing about the run caps is that I could plainly hear them "singing" the 1700 Hz rate. All the othe r caps wereabsolutely quiet.

Keep rockin on Terry

Mark




11/15

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tadgesualdo #7 [-]

Posts: 71Nov 20 10 1:23 AM

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I didn't see a clear current comparison b etwe en your lip balm cap and the motor run cap. It looks like from the scope shotthat the motor run cap did give you very good current in your pulser. How does your 100uF electrolytic do in this regard?

Terry


Posts: 557Nov 20 10 12:48 PM

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Out of all the parts in the voltage doub le circuit, proper selection of the o utput capacitors will have the grea test e ffect on theoutput. In the previous post I wanted to show the output using a few different caps. The cap that produced to highestoutput a nd the b est pu lse sha pe w as the 6800uF 63V large e lectrolytic ($4.20 Digikey price). The run cap is three times thesize, costs $37 .54 (famous parts.com), produces a less than desirable wave shape and less output power. Sure, if you havesome run caps in your junk box and wan t to play around w ith this circuit they w ill work. The po int I want to make is if youwan t to ge t the most o ut of this circuit, use large low ESR electrolytics.

tadgesualdo #9 [-]

Posts: 71Nov 20 10 11:33 PM

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Mark,

I have bee n reading, I had no idea that the ESL of motor run caps w as that high to e ffect the pulse like that. Although howdoes that effect the ove r all performance of the desulfation, by this I mean the "s hape" of the pulse.

Here is an interes ting article that makes a cas e for perhaps using smaller value film caps, say something in the 30uF rangeover 100uF Electrolytic. I wou ld be interested in w hat the differences this might present. I do know of some 100uFpolypropylene electrolytic capacitors. To establish w hich caps might be best I wonder if trying se veral types/brands might bewarranted . In my opinion the capacitor is 50% of the equation here be cause it does store some of the charge. Also I wo nderif all motor run caps are created the same, and I w onde r if some of the symptoms I have gotten are a result of my using amotor run cap. Size to me is not as important as pe rformance.

Terry

Tucsonshooter Capacitance - minimum uF and ESR ESR ESR #10 [-]

Posts: 557Nov 21 10 12:39 AM

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Terry What s ets the low er limits of the amount of capacitance is how much voltage droop you can sta nd during the pulse. Theformula for this is dV/dT = I/C. (d= delta or "change in"). This tells you how quickly the voltage will drop for a given currentand capacitance. For instance, a 10 uF cap under a 30 amp load will drop 3 volts per microsecond. Wa y too much droop forthis application. A 100 u F cap w ould drop .3 volts/uS and 1000uF cap w ould drop .03 V/uS. (I like the .03V/uS number) This isthe e lectrical nature of a capacitor regardly of the type. Now a dd to this the e ffect of ESR. Look at the s cope photo s in theprevious post of the voltage wavefrom of the 100 uF and 2200 uF caps. The wave shapes are pretty much the same butthere is 2 volts difference in the a mplitude. This is the e ffect of ESR. The 100 uF cap ha s a h igher ESR than the 2200uF capand losses more voltage.

Why did I use a 6800uF 63 volt cap when 1000 uf is all the capacitance I should really need? Because the bigger cap has amuch lower ESR.

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Tucsonshooter Pulse shape - a tough one to explain #11 [-]

Posts: 557Nov 21 10 1:16 AM

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The shap e of a pulse de termines its frequency content. A pulse that ha s a ve ry fast/fall rise time and a flat top is rich in alot of high freque ncy energy. A pulse with a s low rise time with a rounde d top ha s far less high frequen cy energy in it. Why isthis important? A lead acid battery is made of parallel plates. This is the same structure as a capacitor so view a ba ttery as6 equa l sized capacitors in series. Whe n you apply high freque ncy energy to equa l capacitors in series the voltage andcurrent w ill be the s ame in each one . This is called a "capacitive voltage divider". So, the highe r the frequency content o fyour pulse the more equal the charge will be for each cell. That is why we wan t fast rise times and flat top pulses , it takesadvantage of this capacitive nature a lead acid battery has to e qualize the de sulfating energy across all the cells.

Tucsonshooter Inductors #12 [-]

Posts: 557

I got in a few more inductors to try in the circuit. So far I have tried three off the she lf parts and a few hand w ould inductors.

I have tested: - Pulse enginee ring, PE-53830, 77uH - Pulse Engineering, PE-53614, 1070uH - Renco, RL-1960, 680uH

The difference in the ou tputs we re in the tenths o f a volt. They all wo rked well.

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12/15

ReplyQuoteThe hand w ound inductors that did not wo rk well were the high pe rmiability cores. They saturated a nd drew p owe r from thecircuit.

I suggest inductors that have a satu ration current of at least .5 amps. This is bas ed on my circuit that draws about .4 ampswith a 1700 Hz, 7uS, 30 amp output pulse.


Posts: 557Nov 24 10 10:58 PM

ReplyQuote

Francesc I would be ho nored if you could run a spice model of this circuit.

Mark

sitgesn1 #14 [-]

Posts: 13Nov 25 10 5:04 PM

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Hi Mark,Its a pleasure for me to include LTSpice of you r circuitHere is the circuit I used for simulation and some comments a bout componentsCapa citors C2 C3 ESR is 0.02 and L1 and L2 ohmic resistance is 10 OhmMosfet driver is a conventional totem pole be cause TC4426 it is not available for meMosfet IRF7468 is a 40V/0.016 Ohm and it is the model I have at handBattery model is a simplified o ne tha t I frequently use for desulfator circuits but it is adapte d at 13V/0.25 Ohm according toyour data

and he re are results: V(bat+) is pulse voltage at +Battery and I(V1) is pulse current

Pea k current is 34A and its wa veform and peak I believe is very well adapted to your Pearson meterPea k battery voltage presents an overshoo t and it is not exactly as your scope oneInductance values is according to your des cription... but if you need futhe r details please let me know-FrancescMore wa veforms

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Last Edited By: sitgesn1Nov 25 10 9:54 PM. Edited 1 times.


Posts: 557Nov 27 10 1:12 PM

ReplyQuote

FrancescThank you for the sim. It is encouraging w hen measurement and simulation agree s.

Mark

als #16 [-]

Posts: 375Nov 29 10 10:50 AM

ReplyQuote

Mark, let me s tart off by saying that I think it is grea t that you

are e xperimenting w ith improvements. Keep it up.

A few points:1. Try your run caps again w ith much sho rter and/or thickerconnections. There is a generous amount of inductancein those tiny wires w ith fast rise-times. Ground the cas e.2. Two or more smaller caps (i.e., 3500 uf + 3500 uf) arealmost always better (and easier to obtain) than onelarge (6800 uf) cap. Use the sho rtest leads po ssible.Old PC supplies are g ood sources for low-ESR caps,and small ceramic bypass caps in parallel with theelectrolytics will lowe r ESR even more.3. Use a larger, counter-wound or thick film (10W or more)resistor in the output leg. A low-value shun t is evenbette r. I use 20 mil, 3/8" wide copper strips, but anycopper plane surface is usa ble. Stack 'em for morecurrent, or us e th icker/wider strips. Calibrate withan accurate ammeter. The arrangement s how n inyour photos cons titutes a low-value choke in serieswith the pulser output.4. Use _Large_ lead s on the output (AWG #6 or bigger).The shorter, the better. Composition does not seemto matter much, but fine strands are ea sier to handle.

(Think "w elding leads ").5. Use o nly a lead-acid battery for a load. Preferably,one the approximate size as your target ap plication.Use the _same_ batte ry for your comparisons, andkeep th e te st times short. (It is sort of aggravatingthat the battery under test becomes de-sulfated and

skews the readings).If your target is NiCad, your environment changes.Pulsers have value here, but in a different manner.

Simulated batte ry loads are just that - simulated.I made gobs o f different versions, based o n themodels found around the various vendor andwhite pa per approximations in an attempt tocreate a consistent test load for pulsers.None worked as good as a genuine LA battery.

6. I found it easier to make a test jig:http://hmin.tripod.com/al...dysm/pages/jigproto.htmlNote the paralleled low-ESR caps and fabricated shunt.All components are rep laceable except the caps -including the timer/driver board tu cked under the pots.

7. See the timer and driver circuits poste d at:http://hmin.tripod.com/al...dysm/pages/desulf-1.htmlI found it ea sier with the TL494-type timer chips - theyhave an adjustable dead time, and one of the drivertransistors can be us ed in F/F mode to give an advancescope trigger to move the waveform start to the center

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Lead Acid Battery Desulfation> Pulse Charging and Desulfation> Voltage Doubler Desulfator Design

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