lati rinpoche: oral debate

8/9/2019 Lati Rinpoche: Oral Debate

1/246

Lati Rinbochay:Oral Debate

Translated by Daniel Perdue based on Jeffrey Hopkins’s classes

© Jeffrey Hopkins, 1999. No portion may be reproduced without

written permission.


2/246

Colors, White and ed

!pril ", 19#$

%ape &ide 1 Jeffrey' He has a different format for (ettin( back to the route in which

one has accepted the basic conse)uence *that is, the +dod route.

-adhi inbochay /s whate0er is a color necessarily red

2pponent / accept the per0asion.

/t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is

red because of bein( a color.

3 %he reason is not established.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is acolor because of bein( suitable as a hue.

3 Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.

/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color

because 5that which is suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.

3 / accept that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a

color because of bein( suitable as a hue.3 / accept it.



3 / accept it.


not red because of bein( white.

3 Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.

/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because

there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

3 %he reason that there is no common locus of the two, white andred, is not established.

/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red

because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

Jeffrey He says that you could (o on to say that the reason is not

established here, but this is where the book stops and if you do (o on


3/246

it will harm you. 7ou may (et confused.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.

3 / accept it.



3 / accept it.



3 %here is no per0asion.

/t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.3 / accept it.

%sa8 !ma:in(8 ;inished8< What is the difference between bein( red

and bein( a color

3 %here are three possibilities.

/t follows that there are not three possibilities =osit somethin(

which is both *&omethin( which is both is the sub4ect the color of a

ruby. %his implies that you can (o on to say that it is this and it is

that. /t will be alri(ht if you say, 5%he sub4ect, the color of a red

flower.5 ;or the second possibility whate0er is red is necessarily a

color %hen, whate0er is a color is not necessarily red. ;or instance<

the sub4ect the color of a white reli(ious conch. &omethin( which is

neither one nor the other is the sub4ect the form of a cairn. &o there

are the three possibilities. %here is somethin( which is both %here is

somethin( which is one and is not the other. 2ne says, 5Which is

necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other =osit

somethin( which is one and not the other.5 %here is somethin( which

is neither one nor the other. When one says 5possibility5 *mu, one is

sayin( 5limit5 *mtha+. 2ne thin( that mi(ht be confusin( here is that

one says 5/t follows that there are not three possibilities.5 %his is ane6pression that is the opposite of the truth. Here there

are certainly three possibilities. >ut when one debates one will say, 5/t

follows that it is not that5 or 5/t follows that that does not e6ist.5 2ne

is tryin( to trap the opponent. &o / say, 5/t follows that there are not

three possibilities. =osit somethin( which is both.5 2nce you say that

there are the three possibilities, the Challen(er will play with you and


4/246

say that there are not the three possibilities He will say, 5=osit

somethin( which is both5 or 5=osit the three possibilities.5 He is 4ust

playin( out his trap on you.

?@>!%@ %W2

Challen(er /s whate0er is a color necessarily red

?efender / accept it

C /t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is


? %he reason is not established.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a

color because of bein( suitable as a hue.

? %here is no per0asion.C &pell it out.

? Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color

because 5suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

? / accept it.


color because of bein( suitable as a hue.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect is red because of bein( a color.

A / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect is not red because of bein( white.

? %here is no per0asion.

C &pell it out.

? Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.

C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because

there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

? %he reason is not established.C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red,

because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it

C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.


5/246

? / accept it.

C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.

? / accept it.



? / accept it.




C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C What is the difference between the two, red and color

? %here are three possibilities.

C =osit somethin( which is both.

? %he sub4ect. the color of a ruby *pad ma ra (a+i kha do).C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a colorBB *%he ?efender has to

(i0e a reason now.

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is redBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a red hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a red hue is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the

other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whate0er is red is necessarily a color. Whate0er is a color is not

necessarily red. %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch.


color.? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.



6/246

not red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB

? >ecause of bein( white.


? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.

? %he sub4ect, a pillar.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not a colorBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue is necessarily not a

color.

? / accept itC /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not red.

? / accept it

C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not redBB

? >ecause of not bein( a color.

C /t follows that whate0er is not a color is necessarily not red.

? / accept it.

inbochay %hat is the way. %here are three possibilities.

!pril , 19#$ probably<

inbochay !bout debate< Dany thin(s that you don+t know will be

cleared away' you will (enerate understandin(. !s your i(norance

decreases and your knowled(e increases, one by one, e0entually you

will (et to the point where you do know e0erythin( and you ha0e no

i(norance. !nother 0irtue of it is that if you are (oin( to meditate on

the 0iew or culti0ate the altruistic mind of enli(htenment, it helps you

there. /t helps to keep the mind from bein( distracted. /t helps to

keep the mind steady. !nd it keeps the mind sharp. /t helps< when

you are doin( analytic meditationon 5/5. !t that time when you aremeditatin(, doin( analytic meditation on anythin(, you will not be

(eneratin( afflictions. %here is (reat 0irtue in not (eneratin(

afflictions for an hour or half an hour. %he purpose for studyin( the

dharma is to stop the afflictions, and for howe0er lon( you can stop

them there is that much ad0anta(e.

;or the fourth possibility of somethin( which is neither one nor the


7/246

other, it does not ha0e to be somethin( that is an e6istent. /t can be

somethin( that is a nonBe6istent. %his is somethin( that is neither, it

is not this and it is not that. >ut if there is somethin( that is an

e6istent, then you put in that.

%here are four alternati0esBBthree possibilities, four possibilities,

mutually inclusi0e, and mutually e6clusi0e. %hus, with re(ard to the

two, human and !merican, you ha0e to choose one of these four. /f

someone says that there are four possibilities, what would you posit

that is an !merican and not a human ! horse. ! horse /s a horse

an !merican /f someone says that there are three possibilities, what

do you posit as somethin( that is both %he sub4ect, Jeffrey.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, Jeffrey, is an !merican.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, Jeffrey, is an !mericanBB

? >ecause of bein( born in !merica.inbochay %here is no per0asion in that. Whate0er is born in !merica

is not necessarily an !merican. %he sub4ect, an !merican deer.?

>ecause of *1 bein( a human and *" bein( born in !merica.

C /t follows that whoe0er *1 is a human and *" is born in !merica is

necessarily an !merican.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, ?akBd:a( inbochay+s son *Dr. Norbu+s

son who was born in !merica, is an !merican.

? Why

C /t follows that he is because of *1 bein( a human and *" bein(

born in !merica.


C %he sub4ect, the teacher, is an !mericanBB*7ou see you+0e lost and

now he is askin( for another reason.

? >ecause of *1 bein( a human and *" ha0in( !merican parents.

C /t follows that whoe0er *1 is a human and *" has !merican

parents is necessarily an !merican.

*/n the %ibetan custom one need not be born in the country, but one

must ha0e parents of that nationality. ! child born of !mericanparents in /ndia would still be an !merican.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the teacher, is a human.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the teacher, is a humanBB

? >ecause of bein( a person desi(nated in dependence upon any of


8/246

the fi0e a((re(ates of a human.

C /t follows that whoe0er is a person desi(nated in dependence upon

any of the fi0e a((re(ates of a human is necessarily a human.

? / accept it.

C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other

=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whoe0er is an !merican is necessarily a human. Whoe0er is a

human is not necessarily an !merican. %he sub4ect, -ati inbochay.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, -ati inbochay, is a human.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect -ati inbochay is a humanBB

? >ecause of bein( a %ibetan.

C /t follows that whoe0er is a %ibetan is necessarily a human.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, -ati inbochay, is not an !merican? / accept it

C %he sub4ect -ati inbochay, is not an !mericanBB

? >ecause his parents are not !mericans.

C /t follows that whoe0er+s parents are not !mericans is necessarily

not an !merican.

? / accept it

C =osit somethin( which is neither.

? %he sub4ect, a sheep.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a sheep, is not a human.

? / accept it

C %he sub4ect, a sheep, is not a humanBB

? >ecause of bein( an animal.

C /t follows that whate0er is an animal is necessarily not a human.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a sheep, is not an !merican.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect a sheep, is not an !mericanBB

? >ecause of not bein( a human.

C /t follows that whate0er is not a human is necessarily not an!merican.

? / accept it.

%ape &ide "

!pril , 19#$


9/246


10/246

C /t follows that if *1 there is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches

of per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect to it and

color and *" it and color are established in the relationship of

definition and definiendum, then it is necessarily the definition of

color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a hue,

that there is no ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion of

a definition and definiendum with respect to it and color. =osit the

mode of ascertainment.

? %here is a mode of ascertainment< because *1 whate0er is a color

is necessarily suitable as a hue, *" whate0er is suitable as a hue is

necessarily a color, *F whate0er is not a color is necessarily not

suitable as a hue, *G whate0er is not suitable as a hue is necessarily

not a color, * if color e6ists, then that which is suitable as a huenecessarily e6ists, *$ if that which is suitable as a hue e6ists, then

color necessarily e6ists, *# if color does not e6ist, then that which is

suitable as a hue necessarily does not e6ist, and * if that which is

suitable as a hue does not e6ist, then color necessarily does not e6ist.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a

hue, that such is that which is posited as the mode of ascertainment

of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion of a definition and definiendum

with respect to it and color

? / accept it

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a hue,

that it is not established in the relationship of definition and

definiendum with color. =osit the mode of establishment

? %here is a mode of establishment< because in order to ascertain

color with 0alid co(nition one must first ascertain that which is

suitable as a hue with 0alid co(nition.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a hue

that such is that which is posited as the mode of establishment in the

relationship of definition and definiendum of it with color.

? / accept it.C Now, it follows that it is not so because if colors are di0ided, there

are not two.

A%he reason is not established.

C /t follows that if colors are di0ided, there are two.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that there are not two. =osit the two.


11/246

? %here are two


12/246

? / accept it.

%his debate is continued on %ape &ide G of !pril 9,19#$.<

C Now, it follows that it is not so because the two, definition and

di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to blue color.


C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respect

to blue color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of blue color.

? %here is a definition of blue colorecause it is the positor of blue color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is the positor of blue color, then it is

necessarily the definition of blue color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so because if blue colors are di0ided,

there are not the twoBBnatural blue color and manufactured blue color.


C /t follows that if blue colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural

blue color and manufactured blue color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural blue color.

? %here is a natural blue color< %he sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya, is a natural blue

color.

? / accept it.C %he sub4ect, the color of 0aidurya. is a natural blue colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural blue hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural blue hue is

necessarily a natural blue color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured blue color.


13/246

? %here is a manufactured blue color.< %he sub4ect, the color of blue

cotton cloth.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of blue cotton cloth,

that it is a manufactured blue color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect the color of blue cotton cloth is a manufactured blue

colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured blue hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured blue hue is

necessarily a manufactured blue color.

? / accept it.


di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to yellow color.


C /t follows that the two, definition and di0ision, do e6ist with respectto yellow color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of yellow color.

? %here is a definition of yellow color.< %he sub4ect, that which is

suitable as a yellow hue.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a

yellow hue, that it is the definition of yellow color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect that which is suitable as a yellow hue, it

is the definition of yellow colorBB

? >ecause it is the re0erse of yellow color+s meanin(.

C /t follows that if somethin( is the re0erse of yellow color+s meanin(,

then it is necessarily the definition of yellow color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so because if yellow colors are di0ided,

there are not the twoBBnatural yellow color and manufactured yellow

color.


C /t follows that if yellow colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural yellow color and manufactured yellow color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural yellow color.

? %here is a natural yellow color.< %he sub4ect, the color of purified

(old.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is a natural


14/246

yellow color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is a natural yellow colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural yellow hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural yellow hue is

necessarily a natural yellow color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured yellow color.

? %here is a manufactured yellow colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured yellow hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured yellow hue is

necessarily a manufactured yellow color.

? / accept it.


di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to white color.



to white color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. ;irst, posit the definition of white color.

? %here is a definition of white colorecause it is the positor of white color.C /t follows that if somethin( is the positor of white color, then it is

necessarily the definition of white color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so because if white colors are di0ided

there are not the twoBBnatural white color and manufactured white

color.


15/246


C /t follows that if white colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural

white color and manufactured white color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a natural white color.

? %here is a natural white colorecause of bein( suitable as a natural white hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural white hue is

necessarily a natural white color.? / accept it .

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured white color.

? %here is a manufactured white colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured white hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured white hue is

necessarily a manufactured white color.

? / accept it.


di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to red color.



to red color.

? / accept it.C /t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of red color.

? %here is a definition of red color


16/246

C With respect to the sub4ect, that which is suitable as a red hue it is

the definition of red colorBB

? >ecause it is the triply )ualified substantial e6istent of red color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified substantial

e6istent of red color, then it is necessarily the definition of red color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so because if red colors are di0ided,

there are not the twoBBnatural red color and manufactured red color.


C /t follows that if red colors are di0ided, there are the twoBBnatural

red color and manufactured red color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a natural red color.

? %here is a natural red coloruddha

!mitayus.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of the >uddha !mitayus, is a

natural red color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of the >uddha !mitayus, is a natural red

colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a natural red hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a natural red hue is

necessarily a natural red color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a manufactured red color.

? %here is a manufactured red colorecause of bein( suitable as a manufactured red hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a manufactured red hue is

necessarily a manufactured red color.? / accept it.


di0ision, do not e6ist with respect to secondary color.



to secondary color.


17/246

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of secondary

color.

? %here is a definition of secondary colorecause secondary color is its definiendum.

C /t follows that if secondary color is its definiendum, then it is

necessarily the definition of secondary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. /f secondary colors are di0ided, howmany are there

? %here are ei(ht.

C /t follows that there are not ei(ht. =osit the ei(ht.

? %here are ei(ht


18/246

the color of blueBblackBsmoke.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke, is a smoke

color which is that.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke, is a smoke color which

is that.

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a smoke hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a smoke hue which is that is

necessarily a smoke color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a dust color which is that.

? %here is a dust color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a dust hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a dust hue which is that is

necessarily a dust color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a mist color which is that.

? %here is a mist color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a mist hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a mist hue which is that is

necessarily a mist color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit an illumination color which isthat.

? %here is an illumination color which is a secondary color


19/246

C %he sub4ect, the whitish color of illumination, is an illumination

which is thatBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as an illumination hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as an illumination hue which is

that is necessarily an illumination color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a darkness color which is that.

? %here is a darkness color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a darkness hue which is that.C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a darkness hue which is that

is necessarily a darkness color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a shadow color which is that.

? %here is a shadow color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a shadow hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a shadow hue which is that is

necessarily a shadow color which is that.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit a sunli(ht color which is that.

? %here is a sunli(ht color which is a secondary colorecause of bein( suitable as a sunli(ht hue which is that.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a sunli(ht hue which is that is


20/246


21/246

*7ou can posit any of these four.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a primary

color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a primary colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a primary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a primary hue, then it is

necessarily a primary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud,

that it is a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, it is a cloud

colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a cloud hue.C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud

color.

? %here is somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud

colorecause it is white.

C /t follows that if somethin( is white, then it is necessarily a primary

color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower,

that it is not a cloud color.

? / accept it.C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower, it is not a

cloud colorBB

? >ecause it is a flower color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is a flower color. then it is necessarily

not a cloud color.

? / accept it.


22/246

C Now, posit somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a primary

color.

? %here is somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a a primary

colorecause it is suitable as a cloud hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud,

that it is not a primary color.? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud, it is not a

primary colorBB

? >ecause it is a secondary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is a secondary color, then it is

necessarily not a primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.

? %here is somethin( which is neither a cloud color nor a primary

colorecause it is not suitable as a primary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a primary hue, then it

is necessarily not a primary color.

? / accept it.C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, that it is

not a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, it is not a cloud

colorBB

? >ecause it is not suitable as a cloud hue.


23/246

C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily not a cloud color.

? / accept it. %he color of sunli(ht is a color of illumination, but

whate0er is a color of illuminatin( need not be the color of sunli(ht.

%here is the color of the illumination of li(htnin( and the color of

illumination of moonli(ht which

are not colors of sunli(ht.

/n collo)uial %ibetan we say, 5%hen...5 *anBnos, deBnas, but when

debatin( we say, 5Now,...5 *da as in the e6pression, 5Now, it follows

that it is not so.5

/n trainin( new monks they are always first tau(ht to recite the

debates out loud because that brin(s e0erythin( to(ether. /f one 4ust

reads, the meanin( does not come to(ether and e0erythin( remainsscattered.

When monks are debatin(, they clap their hands to(ether. %he

ri(ht hand is method and the left hand is wisdom. %he clappin( of the

hands to(ether symboli:es a union of method and wisdom. /n

dependence upon the practice of a path of a union of method and

wisdom one is liberatin( oneself from all of cyclic e6istence and

drawin( others up to the path of omniscience. %here are 0essels or

channels of wisdom in the wrists, and when one claps these ha0e to

touch. When these two channels of wisdom meet, this (enerates

wisdom. %hat is its symboli:ation.

When you practice debate' you should learn how to clap in this

way. 2nly the Challen(er claps his hands durin( the debate, and he

only claps once at the end of whate0er he is statin( to the ?efender.

2f course, there is no fault in knowin( how to clap in debate. %hen if

you ha0e to do it somewhere, you will know how. 2therwise, / doubt

that it is suitable e0erywhere. =eople mi(ht think that it is 0ery

beautiful. %here are schools of definitions bein( established in 0arious

places like &wit:erland, ;rance, and so forth. /f you (o to these

places, you will ha0e to know how to clap your hands to(ether indebate. 2therwise, you 4ust will not know it.

;rom %ape &ide F of !pril #. 19#$<

/t is not necessary to proceed throu(h a debate as in the former

case when debate !.1 was first done. 2ne need not always follow the

route in which the ?efender first )uestions the establishment of the


24/246

reason in the first statement of the fundamental conse)uence, 5/t

follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is red

because of bein( a color.5 2ne may follow the route in which the

?efender first accepts the basic conse)uence. %his is then in the

opposite order from the way in which we did it before. %hus, if debate

! 1 is done in this way, the mode of procedure is as follows

C /s whate0er is a color necessarily red

? / accept it.

C /t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C %hen it follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch,

is red because of bein( a color.

? / accept that the color of a white reli(ious conch is red


25/246


one with the color of a white reli(ious conch.

? / accept it.


color because of bein( one with the color of a white reli(ious conch.

? / accept it.





? / accept it.

2ne may proceed as before to consider the difference between the

two principals of the debate, color and red, by way of reckonin( the

possible relationships. !nother mode of procedure at this point was

offered by inbochay.<C /f there is no per0asion, then posit a countere6ampleBBsomethin(

that is a color and is not redecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.


not red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a red hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a red hue is necessarily

not red.

? / accept it

!nother format for debate !.1 results if the ?efender (i0es the

correct answer that there is no per0asion to the Challen(er+s ori(inal

)uestion. 5/s whate0er is a color necessarily red5 /f the ?efender

(i0es this correct answer at the be(innin( of the debate, there are two

possible modes of procedure correspondin( to the procedures at the

end of debate as in the former two presentations of !.1. %hese two


26/246

are as follows

=rocedure 2ne



C /f there is no per0asion. then posit somethin( that is a color and is

not redecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, isnot red.

? / accept it.




? / accept it.

=rocedure %wo




? / accept it.

C /f there is no per0asion, then what is the difference between those

two


!t this point the debate proceeds as before *see pp. when the

relationships between the two principals of the debate are posited and

debated.

-ati inbochay has presented two new modes of procedure thesecond of which has two types. %he first new procedure is that in

which the ?efender accepts the basic conse)uence when it is first

stated. %hen after the Challen(er leads the ?efender back to the

second statement of the basic conse)uence, they follow the route in

which the ?efender )uestions the establishment of the reason in the

basic conse)uence. %his procedure is 4ust as before e6cept that the


27/246

two ma4or routes of the debate are re0ersed in order. %he second new

procedure is that in which the ?efender answers correctly the

Challen(er+s ori(inal )uestion by pointin( out that there is no

per0asion. %hen within this second new way he (a0e two possible

procedures that the debate may follow.<

No matter what the ?efender answers we will know what to do.

%he mode of procedure is determined by the ?efender,s answers.

Here the 0arious procedures were applied to debate !.1, but all the

others are the same.

/f you meditate thinkin( on the debates, then you will know them

all. /f you do not remember it, then think about it and meditate on it.

7ou will know it. /f you do it with (reat stren(th for a month thinkin(

on it, then you will know a lot. /t will form well. 7ou will understand

well. %here are si(ns, of whether people understand it well or not and

you will (ain them. /f you do it well, you will become skilled,whereupon it will help a (reat many other people. &eein( you, they

will become skilled also. /t will help the country itself, which will

impro0e due to the fact that people who were not formerly skilled in

these treatises are attainin( skill in them. %here were si6 scholars

called the ornaments of the world Na(ar4una, !san(a, Easubhandhu,

?i(na(a, ?harmakarti, and !ryade0a. %hey are adornments of the

world. %hey are not called adornments for any other reason e6cept

that they were wise. /n the same way you can become the

adornments of !merica, of the West, and of the world. /f you put

(reat force into it, you can learn 0ery )uickly. 7ou do not ha0e to do it

for a lon( time. =ut (reat effort into it for a month, and you will

become 0ery skillful. We do not always ha0e to be debatin( about,

5whate0er is a color is necessarily red.5 We can think about 5whate0er

is a color is necessarily a thin( *dn)os po, bha0a.5 %he mode of

procedure is the same.

C /s whate0er is a color necessarily the color of red cloth


C /f there is no per0asion. then posit somethin( that is a color and isnot the color of red cloth


28/246

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a red cloth hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a red cloth hue is

necessarily not the color of red cloth.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is not a color.

? Why

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a colorBB


C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is white.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is whiteBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a white hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a white hue is necessarilywhite.

? / accept it.

C Now then *+o na is whate0er is red necessarily the color of red

cloth


C =osit somethin( that is red and is not the color of red clothecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily


29/246

not the color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C What is the difference between the two, red color and the color of a

ruby


C /t follows that there are not three possibilities. =osit somethin(

which is both a red color and the color of a rubyecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily the

color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican

(o0ernment, is red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment, is

redBB

? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.

? / accept it.



? Whate0er is the color of a ruby is necessarily red. Whate0er is red

is not necessarily the color of a ruby. %he sub4ect, the color of a red

flower.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is red.? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is redBB

? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is not the color


30/246

of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is not the color of a rubyBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.



? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is neither.

? %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch.


not red.

? / accept it.



C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.? / accept it.



? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not the color of

a rubyBB




? / accept it.

C Now, what is the difference between the two, the color of a ruby

and the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment



which is both the color of a ruby and the color of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment


31/246

(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican (o0ernment,

is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernmentBB

? >ecause of bein( a particularity of the color of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of the color of a ruby of

the !merican (o0ernment is necessarily the color of a ruby of the


? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican

(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a lar(e ruby of the !merican (o0ernment,

is the color of a rubyBB? >ecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.


color of a ruby.

? / accept it.



? Whate0er is the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment is

necessarily the color of a ruby. Whate0er is the color of a ruby is not

necessarily the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment. %he

sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian

(o0ernment, is the color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment, is the

color of a rubyBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.


color of a ruby.

? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian

(o0ernment, is not the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the /ndian (o0ernment, is not the

color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernmentBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue of a ruby of the !merican


32/246

(o0ernment.

C /t follows the whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment is necessarily not the color of a ruby of the


? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( that is neither.

? %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color

of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a rubyBB




? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color

of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a ruby of

the !merican (o0ernmentBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue of a ruby of the !merican

(o0ernment.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment is necesassarily not the color of a ruby of the


? / accept it. C /s whate0er is a horse necessarily a white horse


C =osit somethin( which is a horse and is not a white horseecause of bein( a particularity of horse.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of horse is necessarily ahorse.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horse.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horseBB

? >ecause of not bein( a person desi(nated in dependence upon any


33/246

of the fi0e a((re(ates of a white horse.

C /t follows that whate0er is not a person desi(nated in dependence

upon any of the fi0e a((re(ates of a white horse is necessarily not a

white horse.

? / accept it.

C %hen it follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a horse.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a person.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is a nonBassociated

compositional factor.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not a color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not black.? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a white horse, is not white.

? / accept it.

%ape

&ide G C /t follows that a bearded man is not a man.

? Why

C /t follows that a bearded man is a man.

? / accept it

C /t follows that a white horse is white.

? Why

C /t follows that a white horse is not white. /t follows that white

cotton cloth is not white.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that white paper is not white.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that white paper does not e6ist.

? Why

C /t follows that white paper does e6ist.

? / accept it.C /t follows that somethin( which is paper and which is white e6ists.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is paper and which is white


34/246

C /t follows that white paper is not white.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that somethin( which is paper and which is white does

not e6ist.

? / accept it.

C 7our assertion is< finished8 /t follows that white paper does not

e6ist.

? Why

C /t follows that white paper does e6ist.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that white paper does not e6ist because somethin( which

is paper and is also white does not e6ist. /t follows that a white horse

does not e6ist because somethin( which is a horse and is also white

does not e6ist. &omethin( which is paper and is also white does not

e6ist because the two, paper and white, are mutually e6clusi0e. /tfollows that it is so because *1 whate0er is paper is necessarily an

ob4ect of touch and *" whate0er is white is necessarily a color.

&earch it out. /n0esti(ate it -earn it with the easy thin(s. When

you know the si(ns, definitions, di0isions, and so on of the easy topics,

then later on it will be easy also. Continuin( %ape &ide from !pril

1G, 19#$<

C Now, what is the difference between the two, cloud color and

secondary color



which is both a cloud color and a secondary color


35/246

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud, it is a

secondary colorBB

? >ecause it is suitable as a secondary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a secondary hue, then it is

necessarily a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the

other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary color.

Whate0er is a secondary color is not necessarily a cloud color. %he

sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke.

C /t follows that whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary

color.

? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a secondary

color because of bein( a cloud color. 7ou asserted the reason and the

per0asion.

? / accept that the color of a white cloud is a secondary color


36/246

secondary color, do not ha0e three possibilities.

? / accept it.

C Now, what is the difference between the two, cloud color and

secondary color

? %here are four possibilities.

C 7our assertion is< finished8

%he ne6t debate which was (i0en by -ati inbochay be(ins with a

)uote from Chapter /, &hloka 13, =ada ! of the %reasury of Inowled)e

*!bhidharmakosha of Easubandhu.

C =osit the two types of form as e6pressed in the passa(e


37/246

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hi(h form.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hi(h form is necessarily a

hi(h form.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a low form.

? %here is a low formecause of bein( suitable as a low form.C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a low form is necessarily a

low form.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a lon( form.

? %here is a lon( form


38/246

concentration is abo0e us it is hi(h. !nd 4ust because the form of this

sphere of wind below us, is below us, it is a low form. /f one were born

into the four concentrations proceedin( up throu(h them one by one

hi(her and hi(her, it could happen that one would ha0e bi((er and

bi((er houses as one proceeded. %his could happen, but it would not

necessarily happen. When bein(s are born into those concentrations,

they are born immediately with whate0er si:e they are (oin( to ha0e

in that lifetime and their clothin( and dwellin( are produced with

them.

%he land in the first concentration is destroyed when the land is

destroyed by fire at the end of an eon. %his susceptibility to fire is a

fault. %he second concentration has a fault that makes it susceptible

to destruction by water. %he third concentration has a fault that

makes it susceptible to destruction by wind. %he fourth concentration

is immo0able. @0en when the world system is destroyed at the end ofa (reat eon, the land and so forth of the fourth concentration is not

destroyed. !ll four of the concentrations ha0e common en0ironments

in which not 4ust one but 0arious people are born on that le0el.<

Now, the two, cloud color and primary color, ha0e four possibilities.

%he two, cloud color and secondary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he

two, the color of a white cloud and primary color, ha0e three

possibilities. %he two, the color of a white cloud and secondary color,

are mutually e6clusi0e. %he two, the color of an oran(e cloud and

secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of an

oran(e cloud and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0e. %he two, the

color of a flcwer and primary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he two,

the color of a flower and secondary color, ha0e four possibilities. %he

two, the color of a red flower and primary color, ha0e three

possibilities. %he two, the color of a white flower and primary color,

ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of a yellow flower and

primary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the color of an oran(e

flower and secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, the

color of a bluish flower and secondary color, ha0e three possibilities. %he two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0e.

/f someone asks, 5What is the difference between secondary color and

primary color5, they are mutually e6clusi0e. !nd when he says, 5%he

two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually e6clusi0eBB5 one

must answer<

5>ecause of *1 bein( different and *" a common locus is


39/246

not possible.5 %he debate runs like this.<

C What is the difference between the two, secondary color and

primary color

? %hey are mutually e6clusi0e.

C /t follows that the two, secondary color and primary color are

mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it.

C %he two, secondary color and primary color, are mutually

e6clusi0eBB

? >ecause *1 those two are different and *" a common locus is not

possible.

C /t follows that if *1 those two are different and *" a common locus

is not possible then they are necessarily mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it.

enerally the definition of mutual e6clusion is 5*1 they aredifferent and *" a common locus is not possible.5 %hey are different.

%hey are di0erse or indi0idual. %hey are two ob4ects which do not

ha0e a common locus. ! common locus is not possible, it does not

e6ist.<

With re(ard to two phenomena that are mutually inclusi0e

C What is the difference between the two, primary color and that

which is suitable as a primary hue

? %hey are mutually inclusi0e.

C /t follows that the two, primary color and that which is suitable as a

primary hue, are mutually inclusi0e.

? / accept it.

C %he two, primary color and that which is suitable as a primary hue,

are mutually inclusi0eBB

? >ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there

is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between

them


40/246

two, pillar and pot, or the two, permanent phenomenon and thin(. !

common locus of either of these phenomenon with anythin( would not

be possible.<

C What is the difference between the two, colorBform and color

? %hey are mutually inclusi0e.

C /t follows that the two, colorBform and color, are mutually inclusi0e.

? / accept it.

C %he two, colorBform and color, are mutually inclusi0eBB

? >ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there

is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between

them!%@<

C Now, it follows that it is not so because if somethin( is *1 a

permanent phenomenon and *" has four possibilities with primary

color, then it necessarily does not ha0e three possibilities with

secondary color.


C /f there is no per0asion, posit a countere6ampleecause there is a common locus of it and the nonBmomentary.

C /t follows that if there is a common locus of it and the nonB

momentary, then it is necessarily a permanent phenomenon.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from primary color,

that it has four possibilities with primary color.


41/246

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from primary color,

that it does not ha0e four possibilities with primary color. ;irst, posit

somethin( which is both a primary color and different from primary

coloruddha, that it is a primary color.B

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine >uddha it

is a primary colorBB

? >ecause it is blue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is blue, then it is necessarily a primarycolor.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine

>uddha, that it is different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a blue medicine >uddha, it

is different from primary colorBB

? >ecause it is di0erse from primary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from primary color, then it is

necessarily different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is a primary

color and is not different from primary color.

? %here is somethin( which is a primary color and is not different

from primary colorecause it is suitable as a primary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a primary hue, then it is

necessarily a primary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, primary color, that it is not

different from primary color.


42/246

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, primary color, it is not different from

primary colorBB

? >ecause it is one with primary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is one with primary color then it is

necessarily not different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( that is different

from primary color and is not a primary color.

? %here is somethin( that is different from primary color and is not a

primary colorecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with primary

color, then it is necessarily different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a pillar, that it is not a primary

color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, a pillar, it is not a primary colorBB

? >ecause it is not a formBsource.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not a formBsource, then it is

necessarily not a primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is neither a

primary color nor different from primary color


43/246

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the horn of a rabbit, that it is

not different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the horn of a rabbit, it is not different

from primary colorBB

? >ecause it is ascertained as nonBe6istent.

C /t follows that if somethin( is ascertained as nonBe6istent, then it is

necessarily not different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. /t follows with respect to the

sub4ect, different from primary color, that it does not ha0e three

possibilities with secondary color. ;irst, posit somethin( which is both

a secondary color and different from primary coloruddha, that it is a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen !mo(asiddhi

>uddha, it is a secondary colorBB

? >ecause it is suitable as a secondary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a secondary hue, then it is

necessarily a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen

!mo(asiddhi >uddha, that it is different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a (reen !mo(asiddhi

>uddha, it is different from primary colorBB

A>ecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with primary color,

then it is necessarily different from primary color.? / accept it.



? %here is somethin( that is one and is not the other


44/246

%he sub4ect a hi(h form.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, that it is different

from primary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, it is different from primary

color

? >ecause it is di0erse from primary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from primary color then it is

necessarily different from primary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, that it is not a

secondary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, a hi(h form, it is not a secondary

colorBB? >ecause it is not a colorBform.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not a colorBform, then it is necessarily

not a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( that is neither different

from primary color nor a secondary colorecause it is nonBe6istent.

C /t follows that if somethin( is nonBe6istent, then it is necessarily not

different from primary color.


45/246


46/246


47/246

C With respect to the sub4ect, the son of a barren woman, it is not

different from shapeBformBB

? >ecause it is not an e6istent.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not an e6istent, then it is necessarily

not different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C Now, with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform, it

follows that it has three possibilities with secondary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform,

that it does not ha0e three possibilities with secondary color. ;irst,

posit somethin( which is both different from shapeBform and a

secondary colorecause it is a secondary color which is the two red and yellow.

C /t follows that if somethin( is a secondary color which is the two,

red and yellow, then it is necessarily a secondary color.? / accept it.



? %here is somethin( which is one and not the other


48/246

sub4ect, the nonBproduct space.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, that it

is different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, it is different

from shapeBformBB

? >ecause it is permanent.

C /t follows that if somethin( is permanent, then it is necessarily

different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space that it

is not a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the nonBproduct space, it is not a

secondary colorBB? >ecause it is not a color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not a color, then it is necessarily not a

secondary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit somethin( which is neither a

secondary color nor different from shapeBformecause it is not di0erse from shapeBform.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not di0erse from shapeBform then it is

necessarily not different from shapeBform.


49/246

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeB

form, that it has four possibilities with shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, different from shapeBform

that it does not ha0e four possibilities with shapeBform. =osit

somethin( which is both a shapeBform and different from shapeBform.

? %here is somethin( which is both a shapeBform and different from

shapeBformecause it is one of the ei(ht shapeBforms.

C /t follows that if somethin( is one of the ei(ht shapeBforms, then itis necessarily a shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, a lon( form, that it is different

from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, a lon( form, it is different from shapeB

formBB

? >ecause it is di0erse from shapeBform. *2ne also mi(ht ha0e

correctly said, 5>ecause it is a particularity of shapeBform.5

C /t follows that if somethin( is di0erse from shapeBform, then it is

necessarily different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is a shapeBform and is not different from

shapeBform.

? %here is somethin( which is a shapeBform and is not different from

shapeBformecause it is suitable as a shapeBform.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a shapeBform, then it is

necessarily a shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, shapeBform, that it is not


50/246

different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, shapeBform, it is not different from

shapeBformBB

? >ecause it is one with shapeBform.

C /t follows that if somethin( is one with shapeBform, then it is

necessarily not different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is different from shapeBform and is not a

shapeBform.

? %here is somethin( which is different from shapeBform and is not a

shapeBformecause it is mutually e6clusi0e with shapeBform.

C /t follows that if somethin( is mutually e6clusi0e with shapeBform,

then it is necessarily different from shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the twoBBpillar and pot, that it

is not a shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the twoBBpillar and pot, it is not a

shapeBformBB

? >ecause it is an ob4ect of touchBsource.

C /t follows that if somethin( is an ob4ect of touchBsource, then it is

necessarily not a shapeBform.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is neither a shapeBform nor different from

shapeBform


51/246


52/246

C With respect to the sub4ect, suitable as form, it is the definition of

formBB

? >ecause it is the triply )ualified positor of form.

C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified positer of form,

then it is necessarily the definition of form.

? / accept it.

C Now, it follows that it is not so. /f forms are di0ided, how many are

there

? %here are fi0e.

C /t follows that there are not fi0e. =osit the fi0e.

? %here are fi0e types of form


53/246

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the ob4ect of hearin( of an ear

consciousness, that it is the definition of soundBsource.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the ob4ect of hearin( of an ear

consciousness, it is the definition of soundBsourceBB

? >ecause it is the triply )ualified substantial e6istent of soundB

source.

C /t follows that if somethin( is the triply )ualified substantial

e6istent of soundBsource, then it is necessarily the definition of soundB

source.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. /f soundBsources are di0ided, how many

are there

? %here are ei(ht.

C /t follows that there are not ei(ht. =osit the ei(ht.? %here are ei(ht soundBsources


54/246

rantin( Jewel, is a pleasant sound indicatin( meanin(< to sentient

bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with

consciousnessBB

? >ecause of bein( an attracti0e *yiddu +on( ba sound indicatin(

meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisinn( from elements

con4oined with consciousness.C /t follows that whate0er is an

attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is

arisin( from elements con4oined with consciousness is necessarily a

pleasant sound indicatin( meamin(< to sentient bein(s and which is

arisin( from elements con4oined with consciousness.

? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound

indicatin( meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from

elements con4oined with consciousness.

? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an unattracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to

sentient

bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with

consciousness.

C /t follows that whate0er is an unattracti0e sound indicatin(

meanin(< to sentient bein(s and whicn is arisin( from elements

con4oined with consciousness is necessarily an unpleasant sound

indicatin( -meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from

elements con4oined with consciousness.? / accept it

7id du +on( ba means comin( to the mind pleasant+ and

attracti0e. 2ur speech arises from a collection of thin(s includin( the

palate the ton(ue+ the throat+ and 0arious thin(s. !mon(st this

collection are the four elements. %herefore our speech arises in

dependence upon the four elements %he elements+are said to be


55/246

con4oined with consciousness because they are con4oined with or held

by the mental continuum. 5/ndicatin( to sentient bein(s5 means that

it re0eals meanin( to sentient bein(s. /t has meanin(. /t is re0elatory

sound because it has meanin( it re0eals meanin(.<

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant sound not



? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an attracti0e sound not indicatin( meanin(< to

sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with

consciousness

C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e sound not inB dicatin(

meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements

con4oined with consciousness is necessarily a pleasant sound not

indicatin( meanin(< to sentient ben(s and which is arisin( from


? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound not


elements con4oined with consciousB ness.

? %here is such a sound


56/246

sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements con4oined with

consciousness.

C /t follows that whate0er is an unattracti0e sound not indicatin(

meanin(A to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements

con4oined with consciousness is necessarily an unpleasant sound not



? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant sound indicatin(

meanin(< to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not

con4oined with consciousness.

? %here is such a soundecause of bein( an attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(< to

sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not con4oined with

consciousness.

C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e sound indicatin( meanin(<

to sentient bein(s and which is arisin( from elements not con4oined

with consciousness is necessarily a pleasant sound indicatin(

-meanin(< to sentient bein(s arisin( from elements

and which is not con4oined with consciousness.

? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant sound


elements not con4oined with consciousness.? %here is such a sound


57/246

? %here is such a sound


58/246

? / accept it. Kncooked rice has an e)ual odor. 5@)ual5 here means

that it has little odor or none. but it has an odor that will not infect

other thin(s with its smell.<

C =osit an une)ual odor.

? %here is an une)ual odorecause of bein( obser0ed as an une)ual odor.

!lso suitable as a si(n here is+ 5because of bein( a stron( *or

powerful odor.5 !nd suitable as a sub4ect here is the odor of an

efflu0ium.<

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as an une)ual odor is

necessarily an une)ual odor.

? / accept it.C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit a pleasant odor.

? %here is a pleasant odorecause of bein( an attracti0e odor.

C /t follows that whate0er is an attracti0e odor is necB essarily a

pleasant odor.

? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit an unpleasant odor.

3 %here is an unpleasant odorecause of bein( an unattracti0e odor.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of tasteBsource.? %here is a definition of tasteBsource


59/246

the definition of tasteBsourceBB

? >ecause of bein( the meanin( re0erse of tasteBsource.

C /t follows that whate0er is the meanin( re0erse of tasteB source is

necessarily the definition of tasteBsource.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. /f tastes are di0ided+ how many are

there

? %here are si6.

C /t follows that there are not si6. =osit the si6.

? %here are si6 types of tastes


60/246

? >ecause of bein( obser0ed as a sour taste.

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a sour taste is necessarily a

sour taste.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a bitter *kha ba taste.

? %here is a bitter tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as a bitter taste.

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a bitter taste is necessarily a

bitter taste.? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit an astrin(ent taste.

? %here is an astrin(ent tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as an astrin(ent taste.

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as an astrin(ent taste it

necessarily an astrin(ent taste.

? / accept it

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a hot *i.e., pun(ent taste.

? %here isa hot tasteecause of bein( obser0ed as a hot taste.

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a hot taste is necessarily a

hot taste.

? / accept it.C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a salty taste.

? %here is a a salty taste


61/246

? >ecause of bein( obser0ed as a salty taste.

C /t follows that whate0er is obser0ed as a salty taste is necessarily a

salty taste.

? / accept it.

C Now it follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of tan(ible

ob4ectBsource.

? %here is a definition of tan(ible ob4ectBsourceecause of bein( the positor of tan(ible ob4ectBsource.

C /t follows that whate0er is the positor of tan(ible ob4ectB source is

necessarily the definition of tan(ible ob4ectB source.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. /f tan(ible ob4ectB sources are di0ided+how many are there

? %here are ele0en.

C /t follows that there are not ele0en. =osit the ele0en.

? %here are ele0en tan(ible ob4ectBsources


62/246

tan(ible ob4ectBB >ecause of bein( a particularity of

smooth tan(ible ob4ect. /t is the same. /t will be easy.

Now comes the presentation of established bases.

@stablished >ases

C >ecause in the te6t which says+ 5>ecause there are two ob4ects of

comprehension+ there are two 0alid co(ni:ers+5 there is no

e6planation of the presentation of established bases.

? %he reason is not established

C /t follows that in the te6t which says+ 5>ecause there are

two ob4ects of comprehension+ there are two 0alid co(B ni:ers+5 there

is an e6planation of the presentation of established bases.? / accept it.

%his )uote is from the root te6t of the =ramna0arttika or

?harmakrti+s Commentary on *?i)n(a+s 5%reatise on Ealid

Co(nition.5 %he presentation of established bases

is taken from there.

@stablished >ases are not tau(ht in the same way that we did

colors. %he followin( are synonyms established bases, established by

0alid co(nition+ ob4ect of knowled(e+ that which is suitable as an ob4ect

of awareness+ e6istent. obser0ed by 0alid co(nition. pheB nomena,holder of its own entity+ ob4ect of comprehenB sion, ob4ect reali:ed by

0alid co(nition, ob4ect, ob4ect known by a mind, ob4ect of

comprehension of an e6alted knower+ ob4ect reali:ed by an e6alted

knower. %hese are mutually inclusi0e. Whate0er is one is necessarily

the other. Whate0er is the other is necessarily the one. %hey are

mutually inclusi0e because *1 a common locus is possible and *"

they are ascertained *as ha0in( the ei(ht approaches of per0asion.

;urther if *with respect to phenomena a common locus is possible

and

they are ascertained *as ha0in( the ei(ht approaches of per0asion,then they are necessarily mutually inclusi0e. !lso synonymous with

the abo0e are hidden phenomena and *its definition ob4ect reali:ed

in a hidden manner by the thou(ht apprehendin( it. When we say

that two thin(s are mutually inclusi0e+ it means that they ha0e the

same meanin(. %heir (reater and lesser per0asions are the same. !s

with re(ard to the same person+ we may say 5?an5 or 5?aniel.5 %he


63/246

names are different, but the meanin( is the same. @6cept for a

difference of name the meanin( is the same. /t is like this for

established base, ob4ect of knowled(e, and so forth. %he names are

different, but the meanin( is the same. /f we call either name. the

person will answer. /n this way. ob4ect of knowled(e

is itself a hidden phenomenon. @stablished base is itself a hidden

phenomenon. =henomenon itself is a hidden pheB nomenon. %here

are many names, but the meanin( is the same.

Now, if established bases are di0ided, there are twoBBpermanent

phenomena and thin(s. =ermanent phenomeB non has the followin(

synonyms (enerally characteri:ed phenomenon, con0entional truth+

common locus of the nonB momentary and phenomenon, phenomenon

which is a mere imB

putation by term or thou(ht and is not established as a specifically

characteri:ed phenomenon, phenomenon which is not able to performa function ultimately. %hese are mutually inclusi0e. %hey ha0e the

same meanin(.

enerally nonBthin(, not produced, and not composed are mutually

inclusi0e. !lso included here are empty of the ability to perform a

function, not created, unsuitB able as the threeBBproduction,

destruction, and abidin(. %hese si6 are mutually inclusi0e. /f we apply

*the )ualiB fier5phenomenon to each of these+ they will still be

mutually inclusi0e. %hus. a phenomenon which is a nonB thin(,

phenomenon which is empty pf the ability to perB form a function, nonB

composed phenomenon+ phenomenon which is not suitable as the

threeBBproduction, destruction, and abidin(, nonBproduced

phenomenon, nonBcreated phenomenon, and permanent phenomenon

are all mutually inclusi0e.

Non thin( is not mutually inclusi0e with permanent phenomena. /f we

add 5phenomena5 to nonBthin(, then it will be mutually inclusi0e with

permanent phenomena. %his is because nonBthin( has two typesBB

those nonBthin(s which are permanent phenomena and those nonB

thin(s which are nonBe6istents. When we say 5phenomenon which is a

nonBthin(5+ e6cept for the permanent phenomena there are none.!lso, with nonBcomposed, there are nonBcomposed permanent

phenomena and nonBcomposed nonBe6istents. %hese are different.

NonBcomposed phenomena, howe0er, means permanent phenomena

and does not mean nonBe6istents. %he power of this word

+phenomena+ is that e6cept for permanent phenomena we do not

need any other. /f we do not put the word +phenomena+ with it, it will


64/246

not be mutually inclusi0e with permanent phenomena.

=osit the definition of permanent phenomena. %he sub4ect, that which

is obser0ed as a common locus of phenomena and the nonB

momentary. =osit the definition of (enerally characteri:ed

phenomena. %he sub4ect, phenomena which are a mere imputation by

term or thou(ht and are not

established as specifically characteri:ed phenomena. =osit the

definition of con0entional truth. %he sub4ect, a phenomenon which is

not able to perform a function ultimately. =osit the definition of nonB

thin(. %he sub4ect, that which is empty of the ability to perform a

function. =osit the definition of phenomenon which is a nonBthin(.

%he sub4ect, phenomenon which is empty of the ability to perform a

function. =osit the definition of the nonBcomposed.

%he sub4ect, the nonBdisinte(ratin(. =osit the definition of nonB

composed phenomenon. %he sub4ect, phenomenon which is nonBdisinte(ratin(. =osit the definition of nonBcreated. %he sub4ect, the

nonBproduced.

=osit the definition of nonBcreated phenomenon. %he sub4ect, nonB

produced phenomenon.

%here are two definitions of the nonBcomposed. 2ne is the nonB

disinte(ratin(. %he other is unsuitable as the threeBBproduction,

destruction, and abidin(.

/n the study of established bases the mode of proB cedure for

debatin( is the same as that for colors. Here as before we ask for

definitions, di0isions, and illustraB tions. !s before, we say, 5=osit the

definition of estabB lished base. %hat is the definition of established

baseBB Now, how many phenomena which are mutually inclusi0e with

established base are there =osit those. Now, if estabB lished bases

are di0ided, there are not the twoBBpermanent phenomena and thin(s.

/t follows that it is not so. =osit the definition of permanent

phenomena. How many phenomena are mutually inclusi0e with

permanent phenomena5 %his is as before.

%he followin( are synonymous with thin( that which is able to

perform a function, impermanent phenomena, the momentary, thecreated, the produced, the composed, suitable as the threeBB

production, destruction, and abidin(, cause, producer, helper, effect,

the produced, the helped, specifically characteri:ed phenomena,

phenomena which are not established by

lati rinpoche: oral debate

Documents