Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 13 Mai 2009Wednesday, 13 May 2009

13/05/2009

CynnwysContents

3Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ

Questions to the Counsel General and Leader of the House

5 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

21 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai Questions for the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

40 Datganiad: Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ffliw Moch Statement: Update on Swine Influenza

50 Ethol Aelod i’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth Election of a Member to the Subordinate Legislation Committee

51 Datganiad gan y Llywydd Statement by the Presiding Officer

51 Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar Fesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruStage 1 Debate on the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure

57 Penderfyniad Ariannol ar Fesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru Financial Resolution for the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure

57 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Labeli BwydWelsh Conservatives Debate: Food Labelling

82 Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Ffioedd Dysgu Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate: Tuition Fees

117 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

123 Dadl Fer: Degawd o Ddatganoli—Sut y Byddai Wedi Gallu BodShort Debate: Devolution a Decade On—How It Could Have Been

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y TŷQuestions to the Counsel General and Leader of the House

Y Broses Ddeddfwriaethol The Legislative Process

C1 Nerys Evans: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi’u cael gyda swyddogion y gyfraith mewn mannau eraill ynghylch y broses ddeddfwriaethol yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0124(CGE)

Q1 Nerys Evans: What discussions has the Counsel General had with law officers elsewhere regarding the legislative process in Wales? OAQ(3)0124(CGE)

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Fel yr wyf wedi’i ddweud sawl gwaith yn y gorffennol, nid yw’n fwriad gennyf drafod cynnwys fy nhrafodaethau gyda swyddogion y gyfraith eraill yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r trafodaethau rhyngom yn gyfrinachol.

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): As I have stated on previous occasions, it is not my intention to discuss the content of my discussions with other law officers from the United Kingdom. The discussions between us are confidential.

Nerys Evans: Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol bod pryder ynghylch amserlen cymeradwyo Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a Mesurau o ran capasiti yma ac yn San Steffan. Bymtheng mis yn ôl, enillais falot Aelodau meinciau cefn i gyflwyno Mesur ar ailgylchu. Nid yw wedi cyrraedd un o bwyllgorau deddfwriaeth y Cynulliad eto. Mae balot arall yr wythnos hon. Os oes disgwyl inni aros 15 mis cyn i Fesur gyrraedd y pwyllgor, a yw’n realistig meddwl y bydd y Mesurau hyn yn cael eu pasio cyn diwedd tymor y Cynulliad? Onid yw hyn yn dangos nad yw’r gyfundrefn bresennol yn gynaliadwy?

Nerys Evans: I am sure you are aware of the concern regarding the timetable for approving legislative competence Orders and Measures with regard to capacity both here and at Westminster. Fifteen months ago, I won a backbench Members’ ballot to introduce a Measure on recycling. It has not reached any Assembly legislation committee as yet. There is another ballot this week. If we are expected to wait than 15 months before a Measure reaches the committee, is it realistic to think that these Measures will be passed before the end of the Assembly term? Does this not show that the current system is unsustainable?

Carwyn Jones: Nac ydy. Yr wyf wedi dweud bod unrhyw fath o drefnu o ran Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn gorfod cael ei wneud rhwng y Llywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd a Llywodraeth San Steffan. Wrth gwrs, yr oedd problem ynglŷn â sicrhau bod amser ar gael i bwyllgorau edrych ar y Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol gan Aelodau. Mae hynny wedi newid gan fod un pwyllgor sy’n rhoi blaenoriaeth i waith Aelodau’r meinciau cefn. Bydd hynny’n helpu i sicrhau y bydd y system yn cyflymu yn y dyfodol.

Carwyn Jones: No, it does not. I have said that any kind of arrangement in relation to legislative competence Orders must be made between the Government in Cardiff and the Government in Westminster. Of course, there was a problem regarding allocating time for committees to look at the legislative competence Orders from Members. That has changed, since there is one committee that gives priority to the work of backbench Members. This will help ensure a more speedy system in future.

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Pwerau Fframwaith y Cynulliad Assembly’s Framework Powers

C2 Nerys Evans: A yw’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau gyda swyddogion y gyfraith ynghylch defnyddio pwerau fframwaith y Cynulliad? OAQ(3)0125(CGE)

Q2 Nerys Evans: Has the Counsel General had any discussions with law officers regarding the use of the Assembly’s framework powers? OAQ(3)0125(CGE)

Carwyn Jones: Unwaith eto, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond ni fedraf sôn am yr hyn yr wyf yn ei drafod gyda swyddogion cyfreithiol eraill y Deyrnas Unedig.

Carwyn Jones: Once again, I am sorry, but I cannot discuss the content of my discussions with the United Kingdom’s other law officers.

Nerys Evans: Mae’r Mesur Prentisiaethau, Sgiliau, Plant a Dysgu yn symud drwy’r broses yn San Steffan ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r Mesur wedi’i ddrafftio ar gyfer Lloegr ac yr oedd yn hwyr iawn yn y broses cyn i anghenion Cymru gael eu hystyried. Swyddogaethau gweithredol i Weinidogion Cymru yn unig sydd yn y Mesur. Nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gofyn am bwerau i wneud Mesurau yn y Cynulliad. Gan fod Cymru wedi cael ei hystyried yn hwyr yn y broses, nid oes mecanwaith i graffu linell wrth linell ar y cymalau sy’n cyfeirio at Gymru yn ystod cyfnod pwyllgor San Steffan. Yr unig gyfle y cawsom i graffu oedd sesiwn awr yn y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu. A gredwch fod y lefel hon o graffu yn dderbyniol? A gytunwch â’r egwyddor y dylem ofyn am bwerau i wneud Mesurau drwy Ddeddfau Llundain ar bob cyfle posibl, ac felly ein bod wedi colli cyfle o ran y Mesur Prentisiaethau, Sgiliau, Plant a Dysgu?

Nerys Evans: The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill is currently going through Westminster. The Bill has been drafted for England and it was at a late stage that consideration was given to the needs of Wales. The Bill includes only executive functions for Welsh ministers. The Welsh Government has not requested Measure-making powers for the Assembly. Since Wales was considered late in the process, there is no mechanism to scrutinise, line by line, the clauses that relate to Wales during the Westminster committee stage. The only opportunity for scrutiny was an hour-long session in the Enterprise and Learning Committee. Do you believe this level of scrutiny is acceptable? Do you agree with the principle that we should ask for Measure-making powers through Westminster Bills at every possible opportunity, and that we have missed an opportunity in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill?

Carwyn Jones: Pan fydd cyfle yn codi i sicrhau bod cymalau Cymreig mewn unrhyw Ddeddf neu Fesur yn San Steffan, yr ydym yn gwneud hynny, wrth gwrs. Mae hwn yn fater i’r Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am unrhyw bortffolio yn y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod y system yn gweithio; mae’n bosibl cynnwys cymalau Cymreig mewn unrhyw Fesur. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos iawn gyda’n cymdogion yn San Steffan i sicrhau bod lleisiau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r Cynulliad yn cael eu clywed yn San Steffan.

Carwyn Jones: Where an opportunity arises to ensure that Welsh clauses are included in any Act or Bill going through Westminster, we do so. This is a matter for the Minister responsible for a portfolio in the Assembly. However, I believe the system is working; it is possible to include Welsh clauses in any Bill. We work closely with our neighbours in Westminster to ensure that the voices of the Assembly Government and of the Assembly are heard in Westminster.

Ynglŷn â’r system graffu, rhaid cofio ein bod yn trafod Deddf San Steffan. Mae’n briodol bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn cael cyfle i

With regard to the system of scrutiny, we must bear in mind that we are discussing a Westminster Act. It is appropriate that

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fynegi barn ynglŷn ag unrhyw beth sy’n cael ei gynnwys mewn Mesur yn San Steffan. Fodd bynnag, rhaid cofio mai rhywbeth i San Steffan ac i Aelodau Seneddol Cymreig graffu arno yw Mesur San Steffan.

Assembly Members have an opportunity to express a view on anything that is included in a Westminster Bill. However, we must remember that scrutiny of a Westminster Bill is a matter for Westminster and Welsh Members of Parliament.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion GwledigQuestions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

Local Food Bwyd Lleol

Q1 Lorraine Barrett: What is the Minister doing to promote the sourcing of local food in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan? OAQ(3)0688(RAF)

C1 Lorraine Barrett: Beth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i hyrwyddo prynu bwyd lleol yng Nghaerdydd ac ym Mro Morgannwg? OAQ(3)0688(RAF)

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): The Welsh Assembly Government delivers schemes to promote the Welsh food and drink industry throughout Wales and beyond. I have recently launched the local sourcing action plan setting out clear actions on the benefits of promoting locally sourced food and drink to all sectors.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cyflwyno cynlluniau i hyrwyddo’r diwydiant bwyd a diod yng Nghymru ledled Cymru a thu hwnt. Yr wyf wedi lansio’n ddiweddar y cynllun gweithredu ar brynu lleol, sy’n gosod allan gamau clir ar fanteision hyrwyddo bwyd a diod a brynir yn lleol i bob sector.

Lorraine Barrett: You cannot get more local than growing your own vegetables and fruit in allotments, which are becoming more popular. Could you tell us of any plans that you have to encourage or assist local authorities, community councils or unitary authorities to be more proactive about freeing up their land and offering it to communities to turn it into allotments so that they can grow their own food?

Lorraine Barrett: Mae tyfu eich llysiau a’ch ffrwythau eich hun mewn rhandiroedd yn dod yn fwy poblogaidd, ac ni chewch fwyd mwy lleol na hynny. A allech ddweud wrthym am unrhyw gynlluniau sydd gennych i annog neu i gynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol, cynghorau cymuned neu awdurdodau unedol i fod yn fwy rhagweithiol ynghylch rhyddhau eu tir a’i gynnig i gymunedau i’w droi’n rhandiroedd er mwyn iddynt allu tyfu eu bwyd eu hunain?

Elin Jones: I agree that growing your own food in an urban environment is becoming increasingly important and of interest to many people. Technically, I do not lead on allotment policy because it is a planning matter for the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, but I know that she has supported some local authorities to fund allotment development, particularly in Swansea. In my role as the Minister responsible for food production, I increasingly recognise the need to grow food locally. I will discuss with the Minister for the environment how we can progress the Assembly Government’s aspirations to see

Elin Jones: Cytunaf fod tyfu eich bwyd eich hun mewn amgylchedd trefol yn dod yn fwyfwy pwysig ac o ddiddordeb i lawer o bobl. Yn dechnegol, nid fi sy’n gyfrifol am y polisi rhandiroedd, oherwydd mater cynllunio i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai ydyw, ond gwn iddi gynorthwyo rhai awdurdodau lleol i ariannu gwaith i ddatblygu rhandiroedd, yn enwedig yn Abertawe. Yn rhinwedd fy swydd fel y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am gynhyrchu bwyd, yr wyf yn cydnabod fwyfwy fod angen tyfu bwyd yn lleol. Byddaf yn trafod gyda’r Gweinidog dros yr amgylchedd sut y gallwn fwrw ymlaen â dyheadau Llywodraeth y

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more food grown locally. Cynulliad i weld tyfu mwy o fwyd yn lleol.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Something that helps food to be grown locally is economic activity. In the Vale of Glamorgan, Creative Rural Communities has been able to facilitate many community projects under the axes 3 and 4 models. However, you will be aware of the problems of Creative Rural Communities and other partnerships across Wales in processing applications because of the over-zealousness of the Rural Payments Agency in Wales in dealing with applications and paperwork. Can you assure us that you are addressing these problems? Real concerns have been raised over the possibility of a systems failure under axes 3 and 4, which would have a detrimental impact on local food procurement.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Un peth sy’n helpu sicrhau y caiff bwyd ei dyfu’n lleol yw gweithgarwch economaidd. Ym Mro Morgannwg mae Cymunedau Gwledig Creadigol wedi llwyddo i hwyluso amryw o brosiectau cymunedol dan fodelau echelau 3 a 4. Fodd bynnag, gwyddoch am broblemau Cymunedau Gwledig Creadigol a phartneriaethau eraill ledled Cymru wrth brosesu ceisiadau gan fod yr Asiantaeth Taliadau Gwledig yng Nghymru yn rhy llym wrth ddelio â cheisiadau a gwaith papur. A allwch ein sicrhau eich bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn? Mynegwyd pryderon gwirioneddol ynghylch y posibilrwydd y byddai systemau’n methu dan echelau 3 a 4, a fyddai’n cael effaith andwyol ar gaffael bwyd lleol.

Elin Jones: I am aware of these particular concerns in the Vale of Glamorgan. Councillor Traherne has written to me about the concerns relating to the administration of axes 3 and 4. The issue has also been raised with me in other areas of Wales. I am undertaking a review of the application process to axes 3 and 4 in preparation for the next round of applications that will not open until next year so that we can ensure that the administration of the application process is more streamlined than it was in the previous round. As you suggest, some issues relating to the ongoing administration still need to be resolved. I am keen for my officials to work with local authorities and community groups to ensure that projects can be pursued according to the common agricultural policy regulations. This matter is not covered by the convergence funding regulations and, as a farmer, you will know that it can be particularly onerous for any Government and funding recipient to comply with those regulations.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryderon penodol hyn ym Mro Morgannwg. Mae’r Cynghorydd Traherne wedi ysgrifennu ataf am y pryderon ynghylch gweinyddu echelau 3 a 4. Codwyd y mater gyda mi hefyd mewn ardaloedd eraill yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn cynnal adolygiad o’r broses ymgeisio ar gyfer echelau 3 a 4 wrth baratoi ar gyfer y cylch ceisiadau nesaf. Ni fydd y cylch hwnnw’n agor tan y flwyddyn nesaf er mwyn inni allu sicrhau y caiff y broses ymgeisio ei gweinyddu mewn ffordd symlach nag yn y cylch blaenorol. Fel yr awgrymwch, mae rhai problemau’n ymwneud â’r broses weinyddol gyfredol i’w datrys o hyd. Yr wyf yn awyddus i’m swyddogion weithio gydag awdurdodau lleol a grwpiau cymunedol i sicrhau y gellir bwrw ymlaen â phrosiectau yn unol â rheoliadau’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin. Nid yw hwn yn fater a gynhwysir dan y rheoliadau ar gyllid cydgyfeirio, ac fel ffermwr gwyddoch y gall cydymffurfio â’r gofynion hynny fod yn gryn faich ar unrhyw Lywodraeth ac ar unrhyw un sy’n cael cyllid cydgyfeirio.

Chris Franks: People will be pleased to hear your proactive words relating to axes 3 and 4 in the Vale of Glamorgan. Do you agree with the Farmers’ Union of Wales that many public sector organisations are hiding behind European rules as an excuse not to buy local food? What action are you taking to encourage food festivals, such as that in

Chris Franks: Bydd pobl yn falch clywed eich geiriau rhagweithiol ynghylch echelau 3 a 4 ym Mro Morgannwg. A ydych yn cytuno ag Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru fod nifer o sefydliadau’r sector cyhoeddus yn cuddio y tu ôl i reolau Ewropeaidd gan eu defnyddio fel esgus dros beidio â phrynu bwyd lleol? Pa gamau yr ydych yn eu cymryd i annog

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Cowbridge, which boost local firms and support local producers? What discussions are you having with the health service, the Ministry of Defence and other public authorities about buying food produced in Wales?

gwyliau bwyd, megis honno yn y Bont-faen, sy’n rhoi hwb i gwmnïau lleol ac yn cefnogi cynhyrchwyr lleol? Pa drafodaethau yr ydych yn eu cael ggyda’r gwasanaeth iechyd, y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ac awdurdodau cyhoeddus eraill ynghylch prynu bwyd a gynhyrchir yng Nghymru?

1.40 p.m.

Elin Jones: My reactive words to those questions would be to say that there is a ‘One Wales’ commitment to support farmers markets. I am currently undertaking a competitive bidding round to set up a scheme a structured support system for farmers’ markets throughout Wales. I know that Cowbridge farmers’ market is particularly successful; I have been invited to attend and I hope to do so in future. On local procurement, the Government has published its local food sourcing action plan and we want to see greater public procurement of local food in Wales. I do not believe that there are local authorities that hide behind European regulations; all public authorities have to comply with European regulations, but I am keen for my department to work with all public procurers of food to work out ways in which local food can be procured by public authorities and the action plan will give us the means to do that.

Elin Jones: Atebaf y cwestiynau hynny drwy ddweud bod cefnogi marchnadoedd ffermwyr yn un o ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’. Yr wyf yn cynnal cylch ceisiadau cystadleuol ar hyn o bryd i sefydlu cynllun a system gymorth strwythuredig ar gyfer marchnadoedd ffermwyr ym mhob cwr o Gymru. Gwn fod marchnad ffermwyr y Bont-faen yn llwyddiant ysgubol; yr wyf wedi cael gwahoddiad i fynd i’r farchnad, a gobeithiaf wneud hynny yn y dyfodol. O ran caffael yn lleol, mae’r Llywodraeth wedi cyhoeddi ei chynllun gweithredu ar brynu bwyd lleol, ac mae arnom eisiau gweld y sector cyhoeddus yn caffael mwy o fwyd lleol yng Nghymru. Ni chredaf fod awdurdodau lleol yn cuddio y tu ôl i reoliadau Ewrop; rhaid i bob awdurdod cyhoeddus gydymffurfio â rheoliadau Ewrop, ond yr wyf yn awyddus i’m hadran weithio gyda phawb sy’n caffael bwyd yn y sector cyhoeddus er mwyn gweld sut y gall awdurdodau cyhoeddus gaffael bwyd yn lleol, a bydd y cynllun gweithredu yn ein galluogi i wneud hynny.

Local Food Production Cynhyrchu Bwyd Lleol

Q2 Leanne Wood: Will the Minister make a statement on local food production? OAQ(3)0678(RAF)

C2 Leanne Wood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gynhyrchu bwyd yn lleol? OAQ(3)0678(RAF)

Elin Jones: We need to produce more food in Wales for local consumption, but in a way that is more sustainable. I recently launched the local food action plan and the food tourism action plan, both of which aim to increase the volume of local food purchased and reduce food miles, minimising the effect of food distribution on the environment.

Elin Jones: Mae angen inni gynhyrchu mwy o fwyd yng Nghymru i’w fwyta’n lleol, ond mewn ffordd fwy cynaliadwy. Yn ddiweddar, lansiais y cynllun gweithredu ar fwyd lleol a’r cynllun gweithredu ar dwristiaeth fwyd. Nod y ddau gynllun yw cynyddu faint o fwyd lleol sy’n cael ei brynu a lleihau’r milltiroedd y mae bwyd yn gorfod eu teithio, gan leihau effaith dosbarthu bwyd ar yr amgylchedd.

Leanne Wood: What discussions have you had about promoting quality local food, particularly at a European level? Farmers’ markets are becoming more and more

Leanne Wood: Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael ynghylch hyrwyddo bwyd lleol o safon, yn enwedig ar lefel Ewropeaidd? Mae marchnadoedd ffermwyr yn dod yn fwyfwy

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popular and I am sure that you will be aware that our colleague, Jill Evans MEP, recently highlighted that issue. Not only are farmers’ markets hugely beneficial to local communities and farmers, they are also vital in combating climate change as they enable a reduction in food miles and so on. What talks have you had regarding the amended EU regional development guidelines and the call for more support for farmers’ markets? How can you, as the Minister for Rural Affairs, encourage quality local food production and build a sustainable future for Welsh agriculture?

poblogaidd, ac yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn gwybod bod ein cyd-Aelod, Jill Evans, ASE, wedi tynnu sylw at y mater hwnnw’n ddiweddar. Nid yn unig y mae marchnadoedd ffermwyr yn fuddiol dros ben i gymunedau a ffermwyr lleol, maent hefyd yn hollbwysig i fynd i’r afael â’r newid yn yr hinsawdd, gan eu bod yn lleihau’r milltiroedd y mae’n rhaid i fwyd eu teithio, ac ati. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael ynghylch canllawiau diwygiedig yr UE ar ddatblygu rhanbarthol a’r galw am fwy o gefnogaeth i farchnadoedd ffermwyr? Sut y gallwch, fel y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, annog cynhyrchu bwyd lleol o safon ac adeiladu dyfodol cynaliadwy i amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru?

Elin Jones: I have had no direct discussions with anybody regarding the new European regional development guidelines, which you outlined. Of course, as I said in my earlier answer, there is a One Wales Government commitment to supporting the further development of farmers’ markets. The rural development plan for Wales gives us the funding opportunity to provide structured support for the further development of farmers’ markets as a means of enabling local food producers to sell directly to local consumers. We are currently undertaking a tendering process to procure services to provide that support to farmers’ markets on a national basis throughout Wales. I hope that that will improve on the already good story that we have to tell in several places in Wales about the role played by farmers’ markets. We can look to improve on that, to improve the coverage throughout Wales and to improve again on the ability of local consumers to access local food directly from local producers.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cael dim trafodaethau uniongyrchol gyda neb ynghylch y canllawiau Ewropeaidd newydd ar ddatblygu rhanbarthol a amlinellwyd gennych. Wrth gwrs, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb cynharach, mae ymrwymiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un i gefnogi datblygu mwy ar farchnadoedd ffermwyr. Mae cynllun datblygu gwledig Cymru yn gyfle cyllidol inni ddarparu cefnogaeth strwythuredig er mwyn datblygu marchnadoedd ffermwyr ymhellach fel ffordd i alluogi cynhyrchwyr bwyd lleol i werthu’n uniongyrchol i ddefnyddwyr lleol. Yr ydym yn cynnal proses dendro ar hyn o bryd i gaffael gwasanaethau i ddarparu’r gefnogaeth honno i farchnadoedd ffermwyr ar lefel genedlaethol ledled Cymru. Gobeithio y bydd hynny’n gwella’r stori dda sydd gennym eisoes i’w hadrodd mewn amryw o leoedd yng Nghymru ynghylch rôl marchnadoedd ffermwyr. Gallwn geisio rhagori ar hynny, er mwyn gwella’r ddarpariaeth ledled Cymru ac i gynyddu gallu prynwyr lleol i gael bwyd lleol yn uniongyrchol gan gynhyrchwyr lleol.

Alun Cairns: Will the Minister accept that an extension of the excellent principle of the farmers’ market in terms of local food production would be that of honest labelling, so that local producers could underline their credentials and market their produce on that basis? The current guidelines, particularly European guidelines, are not helpful in this respect. What direct action has the Minister taken in terms of lobbying the European Commission and the European Union on the possibility of changing the labelling process

Alun Cairns: A wnaiff y Gweinidog dderbyn y gellid ychwanegu elfen arall at yr egwyddor wych o farchnadoedd ffermwyr yng nghyswllt cynhyrchu bwyd lleol, sef labelu gonest, er mwyn i gynhyrchwyr lleol allu tanlinellu eu cymwysterau a gwerthu eu cynnyrch ar sail hynny? Nid yw’r canllawiau cyfredol, yn enwedig rhai Ewrop, yn help o gwbl yn hyn o beth. Pa gamau uniongyrchol y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cymryd o ran lobïo’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ynghylch posibilrwydd newid y

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in order to allow local farmers and food producers in Wales to market their products clearly elsewhere, so that we have an absolutely honest picture of where those products were produced?

broses labelu i ganiatáu i ffermwyr a chynhyrchwyr bwyd lleol yng Nghymru werthu eu cynnyrch yn amlwg rywle arall, fel y cawn ddarlun cwbl onest o ble mae’r cynhyrchion hynny wedi eu cynhyrchu?

Elin Jones: I am not aware of regulations that currently prohibit any local Welsh food producer from stating that his or her eggs are Welsh eggs. I am not aware of regulations that prohibit that from happening. I am interested in improving clear labelling, not just for Welsh produce, but for produce across the EU. I attended a food summit in Scotland on Monday, for Ministers with responsibility for food in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales, on the issue of country of origin labelling was raised there as a matter that we are all—including the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—keen to progress in the European Union.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o reoliadau cyfredol sy’n gwahardd cynhyrchwyr bwyd lleol o Gymru rhag dweud bod eu hwyau’n dod o Gymru. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o reoliadau sy’n atal hynny rhag digwydd. Yr wyf yn awyddus i wella’r broses ar gyfer labelu clir, nid yn unig ar gyfer cynnyrch o Gymru, ond ar gyfer cynnyrch ar draws yr UE. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol mewn uwchgynhadledd fwyd yn yr Alban ddydd Llun, ar gyfer Gweinidogion sy’n gyfrifol am fwyd yng Nghymru, yr Alban, Lloegr ac yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, a chodwyd mater labelu gwlad tarddiad yno fel mater yr ydym i gyd—gan gynnwys Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig—yn awyddus i fwrw ymlaen ag ef yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Janice Gregory: Tŷ Talgarth Organics farm, located in Nant-y-moel in my constituency, has secured a wide reputation for the excellence of its products, especially its lamb and beef. It was recently included in a prestigious list of the top 50 farm shops in Britain. Will you join me in congratulating the Pugh family on making such a success of this organic farm, which is situated on some of the highest agricultural land in Wales? Will you also welcome members of the Ogmore Valley Community Council, which covers that area, who are in the public gallery this afternoon? Finally, will you join me in visiting Tŷ Talgarth Organics farm to see the excellent work that is carried out there?

Janice Gregory: Mae fferm Bwydydd Organig Tŷ Talgarth, yn Nant-y-moel yn fy etholaeth i, wedi sicrhau enw da yn eang am ei chynnyrch ardderchog, yn enwedig ei chig oen a’i chig eidion. Yn ddiweddar, cafodd ei chynnwys ar restr freintiedig o’r 50 siop fferm orau ym Mhrydain. A ymunwch â mi i longyfarch y teulu Pugh ar eu llwyddiant yn rhedeg y fferm organig hon, sydd ar dir amaethyddol gyda’r uchaf yng Nghymru? A wnewch chi hefyd groesawu aelodau o Gyngor Cymunedol Dyffryn Ogwr, sy’n gyfrifol am yr ardal honno, sydd yn yr oriel gyhoeddus y prynhawn yma? Yn olaf, a ymunwch â mi ar ymweliad â fferm Bwydydd Organig Tŷ Talgarth i weld y gwaith gwych a wneir yno?

Elin Jones: I welcome everybody in the public gallery this afternoon, especially your constituents, Janice. I am interested to hear about the success that your constituents are having in developing their farm and business to supply good-quality, local food in your area. I am always looking for opportunities to put my Wellingtons on, so if there is an opportunity to visit that farm, I would be happy to do so.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn croesawu pawb yn yr oriel gyhoeddus y prynhawn yma, yn enwedig eich etholwyr chi, Janice. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb clywed am y llwyddiant y mae eich etholwyr yn ei gael wrth ddatblygu eu fferm a’u busnes i ddarparu bwyd lleol o safon dda yn eich ardal. Yr wyf bob amser yn chwilio am gyfleoedd i wisgo fy Wellingtons, felly, os bydd cyfle i ymweld â’r fferm honno, byddwn wrth fy modd yn gwneud hynny.

Peter Black: In relation to local food Peter Black: Yng nghyswllt cynhyrchu

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production, we have a debate on food labelling later on today. What is your attitude towards our suggestion of having a Welsh food kitemark for food that is produced, packaged and processed in Wales?

bwyd yn lleol, byddwn yn cael dadl ar labelu bwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw. Beth yw eich agwedd at ein hawgrym o gael nod barcud bwyd Cymru ar gyfer bwyd sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu, ei becynnu a’i brosesu yng Nghymru?

Elin Jones: You are obviously keen to know my view on your amendment, but you will have to wait until the debate to hear the Government’s view on it.

Elin Jones: Yr ydych yn amlwg yn awyddus i wybod fy safbwynt am eich gwelliant, ond bydd yn rhaid ichi aros tan y ddadl i glywed safbwynt y Llywodraeth arno.

Alun Davies: Thank you for your answers, Minister; my question follows on from many of the issues raised. It was interesting to hear my good friend Lorraine Barrett discussing local food procurement here in Cardiff. As you will be aware, Minister, it can be easier to buy fresh, reasonably priced food in the city of Cardiff than in many of the parts of mid and west Wales that you and I represent. In many of the towns and villages in food-producing areas the only food available is expensive and has been trucked in from around the United Kingdom, and it is difficult to secure locally produced food. Do you agree that we need a step change in our approach to food production in Wales if we are to address these issues? We produce some excellent food across Wales but, all too often, people living where that food is produced find it difficult, if not impossible, to buy it at a reasonable price. Does the Government therefore need to take a different, more radical approach to ensure that local food production and local food use is the norm rather than the exception?

Alun Davies: Diolch am eich atebion, Weinidog; mae fy nghwestiwn yn deillio o nifer o’r materion a godwyd. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed fy nghyfaill, Lorraine Barrett, yn trafod prynu bwyd yn lleol yma yng Nghaerdydd. Fel y gwyddoch, Weinidog, gall fod yn haws prynu bwyd ffres am bris rhesymol yn ninas Caerdydd nag mewn llawer rhan o ganolbarth a gorllewin Cymru yr ydych chi a minnau’n eu cynrychioli. Mewn nifer o’r trefi a’r pentrefi mewn ardaloedd sy’n cynhyrchu bwyd, mae’r unig fwyd sydd ar gael yn ddrud ac wedi’i gludo i mewn o bob cwr o’r Deyrnas Unedig, ac mae’n anodd sicrhau bwyd wedi ei gynhyrchu’n lleol. A gytunwch fod arnom angen newid sylfaenol yn ein hagwedd at gynhyrchu bwyd yng Nghymru os ydym am roi sylw i’r materion hyn? Yr ydym yn cynhyrchu bwyd gwych ledled Cymru, ond yn rhy aml bydd pobl sy’n byw lle caiff y bwyd hwnnw ei gynhyrchu yn ei chael yn anodd, os nad yn amhosibl, i’w brynu am brisiau rhesymol. Felly, a oes angen i’r Llywodraeth fabwysiadu agwedd wahanol, fwy radical er mwyn sicrhau mai cynhyrchu bwyd yn lleol a defnyddio bwyd yn lleol yw’r rheol yn hytrach na’r eithriad?

Elin Jones: I agree with several of the issues that you have raised there. Ensuring that food is consumed close to its place of production is important socially, economically and environmentally. My officials are working on an environmental road-map of the dairy industry, as a lot of dairy produce is transported out of the producing areas to be processed, and then trucked back to be sold in those areas. We need to reduce the environmental impact of food production in transport and processing terms. That is why the work that we are doing in the dairy industry in particular will shine a light on

Elin Jones: Cytunaf â nifer o’r materion a godwyd gennych. Mae sicrhau bod bwyd yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n agos i’w fan cynhyrchu yn bwysig yn gymdeithasol, yn economaidd ac yn amgylcheddol. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio ar lunio map llwybr amgylcheddol o’r diwydiant llaeth, gan fod llawer o gynnyrch llaeth yn cael ei gludo o’r ardaloedd cynhyrchu i gael ei brosesu, ac yna’n cael ei gludo’n ôl i gael ei werthu yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Mae angen inni leihau effaith amgylcheddol cynhyrchu bwyd wrth gludo a’i brosesu. Dyna pam y bydd y gwaith a wneir gennym yn y diwydiant llaeth yn

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what is achievable for the Government and for the dairy industry.

arbennig yn dangos yr hyn y gall y Llywodraeth a’r diwydiant llaeth ei gyflawni.

Rearing Game Magu Anifeiliaid Hela

Q3 David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on the rearing of game in Wales? OAQW(3)0672(RAF)

C3 David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fagu anifeiliaid hela yng Nghymru? OAQW(3)0672(RAF)

Elin Jones: Game birds reared for sporting purposes are currently covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The working group of the Welsh Assembly Government, DEFRA and other devolved administrations propose to use powers under the Act to produce a code of practice, which will provide guidance on accommodation and management methods.

Elin Jones: Ar hyn o bryd, mae adar hela a gaiff eu magu at ddibenion chwaraeon yn dod dan Ddeddf Lles Anifeiliaid 2006. Mae gweithgor Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, DEFRA a gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill yn cynnig defnyddio pwerau dan y Ddeddf i gynhyrchu cod ymarfer, a fydd yn darparu canllawiau ar lety a dulliau rheoli.

1.50 p.m.

David Melding: Minister, the French know a thing or two about the pleasures of the table, and, indeed, I have also lingered at the table as well, as my ever expanding ‘bay window’ demonstrates. Do you not agree that Wales ought to market itself as a centre for game—and it is not just about game birds, although that is a good example—as one way to promote not only food, but restaurants in Wales? I should add that game is about the healthiest meat you can eat. We need to get ahead. Perhaps you would like to come around and try rabbit in a cream and mustard sauce with a bottle of Cariad. [Laughter.]

David Melding: Weinidog, mae’r Ffrancwyr yn gwybod ambell beth am bleserau’r bwrdd bwyd, ac yn wir, yr wyf fi hefyd wedi hamddena wrth y bwrdd bwyd, fel y mae fy mol, sy’n dal i dyfu, yn ei ddangos. Oni chytunwch y dylai Cymru farchnata ei hun fel canolfan ar gyfer anifeiliaid hela—ac nid adar hela yn unig sydd dan sylw, er bod yr enghraifft honno’n un dda—fel un ffordd i hyrwyddo nid yn unig bwyd, ond bwytai yng Nghymru? Dylwn ychwanegu mai cig anifeiliaid hela yw’r cig iachaf bron y gallwch ei fwyta. Mae angen inni achub y blaen. Efallai yr hoffech ddod draw i roi cynnig ar damaid o gwningen mewn saws mwstard gyda photel o Cariad. [Chwerthin.]

Elin Jones: Well, as I accepted Janice Gregory’s invitation, I am bound to accept yours as well, David. I agree that game is a particularly interesting food product that we want our restaurants and other businesses in the hospitality sector to take advantage of. I recently launched the food tourism action plan with the Minister for Heritage, and I know that many of our top chefs have a great interest in using game. As you rightly noted, David, it is a particularly healthy meat, and I look forward to the opportunity to sample some of your game.

Elin Jones: Wel, gan imi dderbyn cynnig Janice, rhaid imi dderbyn eich cynnig chi hefyd, David. Cytunaf fod cig anifeiliaid hela yn gynnyrch bwyd hynod ddiddorol y mae arnom eisiau i’n bwytai a’n busnesau eraill yn y sector lletygarwch fanteisio arno. Yn ddiweddar lansiais y cynllun gweithredu ar gyfer twristiaeth bwyd ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog dros Dreftadaeth, a gwn fod gan nifer o’n prif gogyddion ddiddordeb brwd mewn defnyddio anifeiliaid hela. Fel y dywedech, ac yr oeddech yn llygad eich lle, David, mae’n gig arbennig o iachus, ac edrychaf ymlaen at gael cyfle i flasu rhywfaint o’ch cig hela.

Developing Rural Communities Datblygu Cymunedau Gwledig

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Q4 Ann Jones: What are the Welsh Assembly Government’s priorities for developing rural communities in Wales? OAQ(3)0686(RAF)

C4 Ann Jones: Beth yw blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer datblygu cymunedau gwledig yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0686(RAF)

Elin Jones: The Assembly Government’s commitment to developing all communities is set out in ‘One Wales’, and priorities are regularly discussed by Cabinet. Within my portfolio, rural areas will receive some £795 million from 2007 to 2013 through the rural development plan to support a range of activities.

Elin Jones: Mae ymrwymiad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddatblygu pob cymuned wedi’i osod allan yn ‘Cymru’n Un’, a bydd y Cabinet yn trafod y blaenoriaethau’n rheolaidd. Yn fy mhortffolio, bydd ardaloedd gwledig yn cael oddeutu £795 miliwn rhwng 2007 a 2013 drwy’r cynllun datblygu gwledig i gefnogi ystod o weithgareddau.

Ann Jones: I almost feel obliged to also invite you to something before I ask my supplementary.

Ann Jones: Teimlaf ei bod yn rhaid imi hefyd eich gwahodd i rywbeth cyn gofyn fy nghwestiwn atodol.

Minister, for them to be developed, rural communities must have access to the internet, but some not spots remain. One of them happens to be Rhuallt, in my constituency, which you are quite welcome to visit. We can stand on the hill, which needs road safety improvements as well, but never mind about that. Can you talk to BT and other internet providers about this not spot at Rhuallt? Many members of that community do not have access to the internet, and therefore do not have access to any of the information about the good work that we are doing in the Assembly. It appears that no action has been taken because the place is too far away from an exchange. I cannot accept that in 2009, and I hope that you will not. Please look to find a solution for the people of Rhuallt.

Weinidog, er mwyn eu datblygu rhaid i gymunedau gwledig allu defnyddio’r rhyngrwyd, ond mae rhai mannau’n dal heb gysylltiad. Fel mae’n digwydd, Rhuallt, yn fy etholaeth i, yw un o’r mannau hynny, ac mae croeso ichi fynd yno ar ymweliad. Gallwn sefyll ar y bryn, lle mae angen gwella diogelwch ffyrdd, ond ta waeth am hynny. A allwch siarad â BT ac â darparwyr rhyngrwyd eraill ynglŷn â’r man digyswllt hwn yn Rhuallt? Mae nifer o aelodau’r gymuned honno heb allu defnyddio’r rhyngrwyd, ac felly nid allant gael dim o’r wybodaeth am y gwaith da a wneir gennym yn y Cynulliad. Ymddengys nad oes camau gweithredu wedi’u cymryd am fod y lle yn rhy bell o gyfnewidfa ffôn. Ni allaf dderbyn hynny yn 2009, a gobeithio na wnewch chithau. A fyddech cystal â cheisio dod o hyd i ateb ar gyfer pobl Rhuallt?

Elin Jones: I agree that it is not acceptable, which is why this Government—the work being led by Ieuan Wyn Jones’s department—is looking to provide solutions for the not-spot areas. In addition, the European Commission recently announced that, as part of its European recovery programme, as a consequence of the current recession, it is to allocate €1 billion for the purposes of improving rural broadband. That will be fed through the various rural development plans of member states and regions throughout Europe, and that could mean as much as £1 million for Wales. We are currently in discussions with DEFRA and the UK Treasury about the Assembly Government’s

Elin Jones: Cytunaf nad yw’n dderbyniol, a dyna pam mae’r Llywodraeth hon—drwy’r gwaith dan arweiniad adran Ieuan Wyn Jones—yn ceisio darparu atebion i’r ardaloedd lle nad oes cysylltiad. Hefyd, cyhoeddodd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn ddiweddar ei fod, fel rhan o’i raglen i adfer Ewrop o ganlyniad i’r dirwasgiad presennol, yn bwriadu dyrannu €1 biliwn er mwyn gwella band eang mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Bydd hynny’n cael ei gynnwys yn amrywiol gynlluniau datblygu gwledig yr aelod wladwriaethau a’r rhanbarthau ledled Ewrop, a gallai hynny olygu cymaint ag £1 filiwn i Gymru. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym wrthi’n trafod gyda DEFRA a Thrysorlys y DU ynghylch gallu

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ability to access that funding. Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i gael y cyllid hwnnw.

Brynle Williams: Minister, you announced substantial and welcome changes to axis 2 last week, but how confident are you that these changes will allow Welsh agriculture to strike a balance between delivering environmental benefits, which are crucial, and the essential production of food, which is set to increase in importance with the rising world population in coming years? I have expressed this concern before, Minister.

Brynle Williams: Weinidog, cyhoeddwyd newidiadau sylweddol a phoblogaidd yn echel 2 gennych yr wythnos diwethaf, ond pa mor ffyddiog ydych chi y bydd y newidiadau hyn yn galluogi amaethyddiaeth Cymru i sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng darparu manteision amgylcheddol, sy’n hollbwysig, a’r gwaith hanfodol o gynhyrchu bwyd, y bydd ei bwysigrwydd yn cynyddu wrth i boblogaeth y byd godi dros y blynyddoedd nesaf? Yr wyf wedi mynegi’r pryder hwn o’r blaen, Weinidog.

What concerns do you have about effects of these changes on the long-term viability of the small family farm, which is at the heart of the rural community and Welsh-speaking communities?

Pa bryderon sydd gennych ynglŷn ag effeithiau’r newidiadau hyn ar hyfywdra hirdymor ffermydd teuluol bach, sy’n ganolog i’r gymuned wledig ac i gymunedau Cymraeg?

Elin Jones: O ran fy natganiad ar y cynllun Glastir yr wythnos diwethaf, ni welaf fod unrhyw beth yn y cynllun hwnnw a fydd yn lleihau cynhyrchiant bwyd yng Nghymru. Mae cynhyrchu bwyd o’n tir yn bwysig, ac mae’n bosibl sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd mewn ffordd lle mae rheolaeth y tir yn cyd-fynd â rhai o’n blaenoriaethau amgylcheddol. Yr wyf yn gobeithio eich bod yn derbyn fod y cynllun Glastir yn rhoi’r modd i weithredu hynny ac i daro’r cydbwysedd cywir ar hynny. Bydd £89 miliwn yn daladwy yn flynyddol o 2012 ymlaen ar gyfer Glastir, ac yr wyf yn rhagweld y bydd y mwyafrif llethol o’r arian hwnnw yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i ffermydd teuluol yng Nghymru.

Elin Jones: On my statement on the Glastir scheme last week, I cannot see that there is anything in that scheme that would reduce food production in Wales. Producing food from our land is important, and it is possible to ensure that land management happens in a way that is sympathetic to our environmental priorities. I hope you accept that the Glastir scheme provides a way of acting on that and strikes the right balance. Eighty nine million pounds will be payable annually from 2012 for Glastir, and I foresee the vast majority of that money going directly towards family farms in Wales.

Brynle Williams: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog—mae wedi ateb llawer o’m cwestiynau. I newid y pwnc i bris llaeth, bu toriad arall ym mhris llaeth a fydd yn cael effaith fawr ar gynhyrchwyr ledled Cymru.

Brynle Williams: Thank you for that answer, Minister—it has answered many of my questions. To change the subject to the price of milk, there has been another cut in the price of milk which will have a susbtantial imapct on producers across Wales.

Minister, do you agree that the proposed supermarket ombudsman could have a key role to play in ensuring that producers are treated fairly and that the consumer also gets a fair deal, and not in a manner that sees the smaller dairy family farm in Wales being forced out, because their numbers are diminishing daily?

Weinidog, a gytunwch y gallai’r ombwdsmon arfaethedig ar gyfer yr archfarchnadoedd chwarae rôl allweddol i sicrhau y caiff cynhyrchwyr eu trin yn deg a bod y defnyddiwr hefyd yn cael bargen deg, ac nid mewn ffordd lle bydd ffermydd llaeth llai yng Nghymru yn cael eu gorfodi i roi’r gorau i gynhyrchu, am fod eu niferoedd yn lleihau

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bob dydd?

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn rhannu eich pryder am y dirywiad presennol yn y pris y mae ffermwyr Cymru yn ei dderbyn am laeth. O ran ombwdsmon ar gyfer yr archfarchnadoedd, yr wyf wedi egluro bod y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi sefydlu ombwdsmon i’r pwrpas hynny i gynyddu hyder yn y farchnad fwyd. Ar hyn o bryd, mae trafodaeth rhwng y comisiynydd cystadleuaeth a’r archfarchnadoedd i ddod i ddealltwriaeth wirfoddol, a bydd y comisiynydd cystadleuaeth yn gorfod penderfynu ar hynny yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf os na fydd yn bosibl dod i gytundeb gwirfoddol. Bydd yn fater wedyn i Lywodraeth Prydain benderfynu ar y camau nesaf.

Elin Jones: I share your concern about the recent reduction in the price that Welsh farmers receive for milk. As for the supermarket ombudsman, I have explained that the Government supports esablishing an ombudsman for that purpose to improve confidence in the food market. In addition to that, discussion is ongoing between the competition commissioner and the supermarkets to come to a volunatary understanding, and the competition commissioner will have to make a decision on that during the next few weeks if a voluntary agreement cannot be achieved. It will then be for the British Government to decide on the next steps.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Weinidog, gan eich bod wedi ymateb i bob gwahoddiad sydd yn cael ei gynnig i chi heddiw, yr wyf yn eich gwahodd i lansiad y prosiect iCreu yng nghanolfan y Llwyfan, Coleg Prifysgol y Drindod ar 10 Mehefin am 6 o’r gloch. Os y dewch, cewch wrando arnaf yn traethu yn huawdl ynglŷn â’r prosiect arbennig hwn. Mae’n brosiect sy’n ymwneud â datblygu hyfforddiant a gweithgaredd y celfyddydau diwylliannol a chreadigol yng nghefn gwlad, ac mae wedi ei ariannu o dan y cynllun datblygu gwledig. A wnewch gadw mewn cysylltiad â’r prosiect hwn ac hwyrach ei weld fel peilot ar gyfer projectau tebyg mewn mannau gwledig eraill yng Nghymru er mwyn adfywio ein cymunedau gwledig?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Minister, as you have responded to every invitation you have received today, I invite you to the launch of the iCreu project at the Llwyfan centre, Trinity University College on 10 June at 6 p.m. If you accept, you can hear me preaching eloquently about this particular project. It is a project about developing cultural arts training and activity in rural areas which is funded under the rural development plan. Will you keep in touch with this project and perhaps view it as a pilot for other similar projects in other rural parts of Wales to regenerate rural communities?

Elin Jones: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o union fanylion y prosiect, ond gwn ei fod wedi’i ariannu gan y cynllun datblygu gwledig. Yr wyf bron yn siŵr bod gennyf rywbeth ymlaen ar 10 Mehefin ac felly ni fyddaf yn gallu bod yn y lansiad, ond mae gennyf ddiddordeb gweld sut mae’r prosiect yn datblygu ac unrhyw wersi a ellir eu dysgu ohono er mwyn gweld a oes posibilrwydd ei ehangu.

Elin Jones: I am not aware of the precise details of the project, but I know it is funded under the rural development scheme. I am almost certain that I have another engagement on 10 June, so I will be unable to attend the launch. However, I would be interested to see how the project is developing, to see whether any lessons can be learned and whether it would be possible to extend it.

Mick Bates: Minister, at a recent meeting with the National Farmers Union it was pointed out to me that there is still a severe shortage of affordable housing in rural communities. I was pleased to note that a consultation was issued last July on ways to

Mick Bates: Weinidog, mewn cyfarfod yn ddiweddar gydag Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr, tynnwyd fy sylw at y ffaith fod tai fforddiadwy yn dal yn ddifrifol o brin mewn cymunedau gwledig. Yr oeddwn yn falch gweld bod ymgynghoriad wedi’i

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boost the availability of affordable housing in rural areas. In fact, you greeted it by saying that:

gyhoeddi fis Gorffennaf diwethaf ynghylch ffyrdd i roi hwb i nifer y tai fforddiadwy sydd ar gael mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mewn gwirionedd, yr oeddech yn ei groesawu drwy ddweud:

‘today’s proposals on rural housing will have a positive impact on young people who want to stay and work in rural areas. These proposals are good news for the future of our rural communities.’

‘cynigion heddiw ar tai gwledig yng nghael effaith positif ar pobol ifanc sydd eisiau aros a gweithio mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae’r cynigion yma yn newyddion da i ddyfodol ein cymunedau gwledig.’

Minister, what have been the possible impacts following this announcement that you greeted so eloquently?

Weinidog, beth fu’r effeithiau posibl yn dilyn y cyhoeddiad hwn, a gafodd groeso mor huawdl gennych?

2.00 p.m.

Elin Jones: You will be aware that the planning guidance under TAN 6 is not a matter within my portfolio. You might take the opportunity to ask the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, whose question session follows mine. The relationship between the planning policy, TAN 6, and my young entrants scheme for new farmers has given me a particular interest in affordable housing in the countryside, and one proposal consulted upon was to look at additional housing on-farm to allow a new generation to live and set up families there. My current understanding is that the consultation proved successful, in that it attracted a large number of responses, and the planning department is currently looking at them. It will need to undertake a further consultation on the detail of the new planning policy in the near future.

Elin Jones: Byddwch yn gwybod nad yw’r canllawiau cynllunio dan TAN 6 yn fater sy’n dod dan fy mhortffolio i. Efallai y manteisiwch ar y cyfle i ofyn i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai, y bydd ei sesiwn gwestiynau’n dechrau ar ôl f’un i. Mae’r berthynas rhwng y polisi cynllunio, TAN 6, a’m cynllun i newydd-ddyfodiaid ar gyfer ffermwyr newydd wedi rhoi rheswm imi ddangos diddordeb arbennig mewn tai fforddiadwy yng nghefn gwlad, ac un cynnig yr ymgynghorwyd arno oedd ystyried codi tai ychwanegol ar ffermydd i alluogi cenhedlaeth newydd i fyw a magu teuluoedd yno. O’r hyn a ddeallaf ar hyn o bryd, bu’r ymgynghoriad yn llwyddiannus, cafwyd nifer o ymatebion, ac mae’r adran gynllunio yn eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd. Bydd angen iddi gael ymgynghoriad pellach ar fanylion y polisi cynllunio newydd yn y dyfodol agos.

Mick Bates: Thank you for the update on the consultation. However, as with housing, all rural services come down to planning policy. Sparsity, or low population density, means that it is difficult to deliver a wide range of quality services in rural Wales, and yet, a recent report from the Commission for Rural Communities on rural-proofing said that Governments are not giving adequate consideration to the particular circumstances of our rural communities when they plan our services. What are you doing to ensure that our planning policies are rural-proofed so that we get the best from them?

Mick Bates: Diolch ichi am yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am yr ymgynghoriad. Fodd bynnag, fel gyda thai, mae a wnelo pob gwasanaeth gwledig â pholisi cynllunio. Mae teneurwydd poblogaeth, neu ddwysedd poblogaeth isel, yn golygu ei bod yn anodd darparu amrywiaeth eang o wasanaethau o safon yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, ac eto dywedodd adroddiad yn ddiweddar ar brawfesur polisïau gwledig gan y Comisiwn dros Gymunedau Gwledig nad yw Llywodraethau’n rhoi digon o ystyriaeth i amgylchiadau penodol ein cymunedau gwledig pan fyddant yn cynllunio ein gwasanaethau. Beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i

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sicrhau bod ein polisïau cynllunio’n prawfesur polisïau gwledig fel y gallwn gael y gorau ohonynt?

Elin Jones: This Government has undertaken rural-proofing as a matter of course in the development of all its new policies, and has done for the past year. Any new policy from any Minister in the Assembly Government is rural-proofed, as the process has become known, and therefore there is a commitment from this Government to ensure that all its policies are fit for purpose for implementation in rural areas.

Elin Jones: Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi prawfesur polisïau gwledig fel mater o drefn yn y broses o ddatblygu ei holl bolisïau newydd, ac mae wedi gwneud hynny dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Caiff unrhyw bolisi newydd gan unrhyw Weinidog yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei brawfesur ar gyfer polisïau gwledig, fel y gelwir y broses, ac felly mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod ei holl bolisïau’n addas at y diben ar gyfer eu rhoi ar waith mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Pork Products Cynhyrchion Porc

Q5 William Graham: Will the Minister outline the measures that she has introduced to reassure people that it is safe to farm, produce and consume pigs and pork products? OAQ(3)0667(RAF)

C5 William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu’r mesurau y mae wedi’u cyflwyno i sicrhau pobl ei bod yn ddiogel i ffermio, cynhyrchu a bwyta porc a chynhyrchion porc? OAQ(3)0667(RAF)

Elin Jones: I have not introduced measures as currently there is no evidence of the new variant human influenza circulating in pigs in the UK. The Food Standards Agency has stated that there is no food safety risk through eating properly handled and cooked pork and pork products.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cyflwyno mesurau gan nad oes tystiolaeth ar hyn o bryd o’r ffliw dynol gwahanol newydd sy’n lledaenu ymysg moch yn y DU. Mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd wedi dweud nad oes risg i ddiogelwch bwyd drwy fwyta porc a chynhyrchion porc sydd wedi’u trin a’u coginio’n briodol.

William Graham: Thank you for your answer, Minister. You will know that, in the last month, British pork, ham and sausages have been declared safe to eat by authorities including the World Health Organization, the United Kingdom Government, the UK’s Chief Veterinary Officer, the National Farmers Union and, as you say, the Food Standards Agency. Swine flu is more a public health issue than an animal health matter. Given that pigs in Wales are raised to the highest animal welfare standards in the world, would the Minister consider a new pork campaign via Meat Promotion Wales to reassure British and international consumers of the quality and safety of this Welsh food product, and would she particularly consider the use of a Welsh kitemark?

William Graham: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, Weinidog. Byddwch yn gwybod bod awdurdodau, gan gynnwys Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd, Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, Prif Swyddog Milfeddygol y DU, Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr a’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd, ferl y dywedasoch, wedi dweud fis diwethaf fod porc, ham a selsig o Brydain yn ddiogel i’w bwyta. Mae’r ffliw moch yn fwy perthnasol i iechyd y cyhoedd nag i iechyd anifeiliaid. O ystyried bod moch yng Nghymru yn cael eu magu i fodloni’r safonau lles anifeiliaid uchaf yn y byd, a fyddai’r Gweinidog yn ystyried ymgyrch porc newydd drwy Hybu Cig Cymru er mwyn tawelu meddwl defnyddwyr Prydeinig a rhyngwladol am ansawdd a diogelwch cynnyrch y bwyd hwn o Gymru, ac a fyddai’n ystyried defnyddio nod barcud Cymreig yn benodol?

Elin Jones: I do not think that I need to take Elin Jones: Ni chredaf fod angen imi

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any action further to that of the Food Standards Agency in making clear representations to all consumers in Wales, the UK and beyond that all pork and pork products from Wales are fully safe to eat if cooked properly. I do not think that that message could be put more simply or more effectively than by the Food Standards Agency.

gymryd dim camau’n ychwanegol at y rheiny y mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn eu cymryd i roi sylwadau clir i’r holl ddefnyddwyr yng Nghymru, y DU a thu hwnt fod yr holl borc a’r cynhyrchion porc o Gymru yn gwbl ddiogel i’w bwyta os cânt eu coginio’n briodol. Ni chredaf y gellir cyfleu’r neges honno’n fwy syml nac yn fwy effeithiol nag y mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd eisoes wedi’i wneud.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 6, OAQ(3)0668(RAF), yn ôl, a throsglwyddwyd cwestiwn 7 i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig.

The Presiding Officer: Question 6, OAQ(3)0668(RAF), is withdrawn, and question 7 is transferred for written answer.

The Commons Act 2006 Deddf Tiroedd Comin 2006

Q8 Joyce Watson: Will the Minister make a statement on the implementation of the Commons Act 2006? OAQ(3)0692(RAF)

C8 Joyce Watson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am weithredu Deddf Tiroedd Comin 2006? OAQ(3)0692(RAF)

Elin Jones: I have recently adopted lead responsibility for the implementation of the Commons Act 2006 to ensure a coherent approach to sustainable land management across Wales. Part 1 of the Act, relating to registrations, is currently being consulted upon and I envisage that key sections will be implemented from 2010.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf wedi cymryd cyfrifoldeb arweiniol yn ddiweddar dros y broses o roi Deddf Tiroedd Comin 2006 ar waith er mwyn sicrhau dull cydlynol o reoli tir cynaliadwy ledled Cymru. Mae ymgynghoriad ar hyn o bryd ar Ran 1 o’r Ddeddf, sy’n gysylltiedig â chofrestriadau, a rhagwelaf y daw adrannau allweddol i rym ym 2010.

Joyce Watson: In light of last week’s announcement on Glastir, do you agree that now is a good time to look at the Commons Act and at how it can be better incorporated into our land management schemes? Covering, as it does, more than 8 per cent of land in Wales, common land has the potential to contribute a great deal to our sustainable strategies. Fully implemented, the Commons Act would allow commoners to form councils and to take on statutory powers to improve land management and enforce decisions, but, so far, with only Part 1 of the Act having been implemented in Wales, until Part 2 is brought into regulation, there is no mechanism for all commoners holding rights to reach a mutual decision about how the land is managed. Given the potential gains for farmers grazing commons and the environmental benefits that could be secured from improving the ecological condition of common land, will the Minister look to move forward and fully implement the Act?

Joyce Watson: Yng ngoleuni’r cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf am Glastir, a ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn awr yn amser da i ystyried y Ddeddf Tiroedd Comin a sut y gellir ei hymgorffori’n well yn ein cynlluniau rheoli tir? Gan ei fod yn cynnwys dros 8 y cant o dir Cymru, mae gan dir comin y potensial i gyfrannu llawer iawn at ein strategaethau cynaliadwy. Petai wedi’i rhoi ar waith yn llwyr, byddai’r Ddeddf Tiroedd Comin yn galluogi cominwyr i ffurfio cynghorau ac i ysgwyddo pwerau statudol ar gyfer gwella’r broses o reoli tir a gorfodi penderfyniadau. Ond hyd yma, gan mai Rhan 1 yn unig o’r Ddeddf sydd wedi’i rhoi ar waith yng Nghymru, nes caiff Rhan 2 ei chynnwys yn y rheoliad nid oes dull i’r holl gominwyr sydd â hawliau i ddod i benderfyniad ar y cyd ynglŷn â sut y caiff y tir ei reoli. O ystyried y manteision posibl i ffermwyr tir comin sy’n cael ei bori a’r manteision amgylcheddol y gellid eu sicrhau drwy wella cyflwr ecolegol tir comin, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried

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symud ymlaen a rhoi’r Ddeddf ar waith yn llwyr?

Elin Jones: As I said, the priority is to implement Part 1 of the Act. We are currently in consultation on that, which closes at the end of June. That will cover our ability to update the registration of commons in Wales, and it is particularly important to do that, because of the issues that you raised about the need for sustainable land management on commons. Accurate registration is important for that purpose.

Elin Jones: Fel y dywedais, y flaenoriaeth yw rhoi Rhan 1 o’r Ddeddf ar waith. Yr ydym wrthi’n ymgynghori ar hynny, a daw’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw i ben ddiwedd mis Mehefin. Bydd hynny’n cynnwys ein gallu i ddiweddaru’r broses o gofrestru tiroedd comin yng Nghymru, ac y mae’n hynod bwysig gwneud hynny, oherwydd y materion a godasoch am yr angen i reoli tiroedd comin yn gynaliadwy. Mae proses gofrestru gywir yn bwysig i’r diben hwnnw.

I had a meeting with the Welsh Commons Forum a few months ago, at which we had an early discussion on the implementation of Part 2 of the Act and the possible establishment of commons councils. I will want to look at moving towards implementation of Part 2 of the Act, but, as I have said, Part 1 must be the priority and we will move on from there.

Cyfarfûm â Fforwm Tir Comin Cymru rai misoedd yn ôl, lle cawsom drafodaeth gynnar ar weithredu Rhan 2 o’r Ddeddf a phosibilrwydd sefydlu cynghorau tiroedd comin. Byddaf am ystyried gweithredu Rhan 2 o’r Ddeddf, ond, fel y dywedais, rhaid i Ran 1 fod yn flaenoriaeth, a byddwn yn symud ymlaen o’r fan honno.

David Lloyd: Yn bendant, bu i stiwardiaeth y tiroedd comin gan genedlaethau lawer o dyddynwyr gyfrannu at ddynodi penrhyn Gŵyr yn ardal harddwch naturiol eithriadol gyntaf y Deyrnas Unedig ym 1956. A ydych yn ymwybodol o’r cais i ehangu’r ardal harddwch naturiol eithriadol honno i gynnwys ardal tir comin Mynydd y Gwair, o fewn dinas a sir Abertawe? A ydych yn cytuno y byddai’r fath ddynodiad yn helpu diogelu’r ardal honno o ran cynllunio ar gyfer y cenedlaethau sydd i ddod?

David Lloyd: Without a doubt, the stewardship of common land by smallholders over several generations led to the designation of the Gower as the UK’s first area of outstanding natural beauty in 1956. Are you aware of the application to extend that area of outstanding natural beauty to include the common land at Hay Mountain, in the city and county of Swansea? Do you agree that such a designation would help to safeguard that area in planning terms for generations to come?

Elin Jones: Yn dechnegol, mater i’r Gweinidog dros yr amgylchedd yw ardaloedd o harddwch naturiol eithriadol ac felly dylech godi’r mater hwn yn uniongyrchol â hi. Er hynny, rhaid dweud y bûm yn siaradwr gwadd yng nghyfarfod blynyddol Cymdeithas Gŵyr yn ddiweddar ac yr oedd hwn yn destun tipyn o ddiddordeb i’r gymdeithas. Hyd y deallaf, mae’r drafodaeth bwysig nesaf i’w chynnal rhwng Cymdeithas Gŵyr a chyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe er mwyn gweld pa drefniadau rheoli tir y gellir eu cyflwyno yn yr ardal honno er mwyn sicrhau rheolaeth tir gynaliadwy.

Elin Jones: Technically, areas of outstanding natural beauty are a matter for the Minister for environment and you should therefore raise this matter directly with her. However, I must say that I was the guest speaker at the Gower Society’s annual meeting recently and this was the subject of much interest to the society. As far as I understand, the next important discussion of the matter is to be held between the Gower Society and the City and County of Swansea council to see which land management arrangements can be introduced in the area to ensure sustainable land management.

Andrew R.T. Davies: For many farmers, commons provide a valuable resource for

Andrew R.T. Davies: I nifer o ffermwyr mae tiroedd comin yn adnodd gwerthfawr ar

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grazing and for enhancing the economic activity of their businesses, and they are also a great environmental asset. However, many people treat them as dumping grounds or trespass upon them, riding motor cycles and so on across them. What actions are your department and other Welsh Assembly Government departments taking to support local authorities and the police to ensure that people are educated about the environmental importance of commons as well as their economic importance to businesses in rural communities?

gyfer pori ac i wella gweithgarwch economaidd eu busnesau, ac maent hefyd yn ased amgylcheddol gwych. Fodd bynnag, bydd nifer o bobl yn eu trin fel tomenni sbwriel neu leoedd i dresmasu arnynt, i reidio beiciau modur, ac ati. Pa gamau y mae eich adran chi ac adrannau eraill Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn eu cymryd i gefnogi awdurdodau lleol a’r heddlu i sicrhau y caiff pobl eu haddysgu am bwysigrwydd amgylcheddol tiroedd comin yn ogystal â’u pwysigrwydd economaidd i fusnesau mewn cymunedau gwledig?

Elin Jones: I do not think that off-road vehicles are specifically applicable to commons, but I understand that it could be a problem in some commons, as it is in other areas.

Elin Jones: Ni chredaf fod cerbydau oddi ar y ffordd yn berthnasol yn benodol i diroedd comin, ond deallaf y gallai hyn fod yn broblem ar rai tiroedd comin, fel y mae mewn ardaloedd eraill.

2.10 p.m.

You may know that the Government has had discussions with local authorities throughout Wales about an off-roading policy, and there are projects throughout Wales to better educate everyone on what can and should not be done, as a means of lessening its impact on the environment and on those businesses that depend on the commons and other farmed land in Wales.

Efallai y gwyddoch fod y Llywodraeth wedi cael trafodaethau gydag awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru ynghylch polisi gyrru oddi ar y ffordd, ac mae yna brosiectau ledled Cymru i addysgu pawb yn well am yr hyn a ganiateir a’r hyn na chaniateir ei wneud, fel ffordd i leihau ei effaith ar yr amgylchedd ac ar y busnesau hynny sy’n dibynnu ar diroedd comin ac ar diroedd ffermio eraill yng Nghymru.

Abandoned Animals Anifeiliaid Sydd Wedi Cael eu Gadael

Q9 William Graham: Will the Minister outline discussions between the Welsh Assembly Government and the RSPCA concerning abandoned animals? OAQ(3)0670(RAF)

C9 William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu trafodaethau rhwng Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r RSPCA ynghylch anifeiliaid sydd wedi eu gadael? OAQ(3)0670(RAF)

Elin Jones: I have had no specific discussions with the RSPCA on the abandonment of animals, but officials discuss these issues in the context of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, particularly section 4 on unnecessary suffering and section 9 on the duty of a person responsible for an animal to ensure its welfare.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cael trafodaethau penodol gyda’r RSPCA ynghylch anifeiliaid sydd wedi eu gadael, ond mae swyddogion yn trafod y materion hyn yng nghyd-destun Deddf Lles Anifeiliaid 2006, yn enwedig adran 4 ar ddioddefaint diangen ac adran 9 mai dyletswydd y sawl sy’n gyfrifol am anifail yw sicrhau ei les.

William Graham: Thank you for your answer, Minister, but you will know that one of the many unfortunate consequences of the recession has been the sharp increase in the number of domestic and livestock animals

William Graham: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, Weinidog, ond byddwch yn gwybod mai un o o ganlyniadau niferus anffodus y dirwasgiad yw’r cynnydd sydyn yn nifer yr anifeiliaid domestig a da byw sy’n cael eu gadael yng

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abandoned in Wales. A total of 57 per cent more animals were abandoned last year than was the case in 2007, and RSPCA Cymru dealt with 689 dumped animals. The recession has also meant that the RSPCA receives fewer donations than in the past, and it now faces the likelihood of having to make cuts at a time when its services and expertise are most needed. How is your Government liaising with the RSPCA and relevant Government and farming authorities to tackle the need for services for these animals?

Nghymru. Cafodd cyfanswm o 57 y cant yn fwy o anifeiliaid eu gadael y llynedd nag a gofnodwyd yn 2007, ac mae RSPCA Cymru wedi delio â 689 o anifeiliaid wedi’u gadael. Mae’r dirwasgiad hefyd wedi golygu bod yr RSPCA yn cael llai o roddion nag yn y gorffennol, ac y mae bellach yn wynebu’r tebygrwydd o orfod gwneud toriadau ar adeg pan fo angen dybryd am ei wasanaethau a’i arbenigedd. Sut y mae eich Llywodraeth yn cysylltu â’r RSPCA a’r awdurdodau perthnasol yn y Llywodraeth a’r byd amaeth i fynd i’r afael â’r angen am wasanaethau ar gyfer yr anifeiliaid hyn?

Elin Jones: My figures differ from yours, William. The increase in the number of animals abandoned in Wales last year was 13 per cent, rather than 57 per cent which, I think, is the figure for England. The sad fact of the matter is that there is an increase in any case, whether that is 13 or 57 per cent. As I said, my officials are discussing with the RSPCA improvements to animal welfare and the education of all keepers of animals, which is why the code of practice on the welfare of dogs and cats is available to all animal keepers. We also have a children’s version of that code of practice to ensure that everyone knows how best to look after their animals. Animals should never be abandoned, and, if anyone is struggling to keep and feed their animals, our advice is that they contact the animal welfare charities to discuss the various options.

Elin Jones: Mae fy ffigurau’n wahanol i’ch rhai chi, William. Yr oedd y cynnydd yn nifer yr anifeiliaid a adawyd yng Nghymru y llynedd yn 13 y cant, yn hytrach na 57 y cant, sef y ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr, mi gredaf. Y peth trist am hyn yw bod cynnydd o gwbl, boed yn gynnydd o 13 y cant ynteu 57 y cant. Fel y dywedais, mae fy swyddogion yn trafod gyda’r RSPCA welliannau mewn lles anifeiliaid ac addysgu pawb sy’n cadw anifeiliaid. Dyna pam y mae’r cod ymarfer ar les cŵn a chathod ar gael i bawb sy’n cadw anifeiliaid. Mae gennym hefyd fersiwn i blant o’r cod ymarfer hwnnw er mwyn sicrhau bod pawb yn gwybod sut orau i ofalu am eu hanifeiliaid. Ni ddylid gadael anifeiliaid byth, ac os oes unrhyw un yn cael trafferth cadw a bwydo eu hanifeiliaid, ein cyngor yw y dylent gysylltu ag elusennau lles anifeiliaid i drafod yr amrywiol ddewisiadau.

Bethan Jenkins: Fel y gwyddoch eisoes, Weinidog, mae’r ystadegau hyn yn boenus i ni yng Nghymru a’r cyfartaledd hwnnw a fydd yn dioddef yn ystod y sefyllfa economaidd bresennol. Fis Rhagfyr diwethaf, ymwelais â’r Dogs Trust ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Mae’r sefydliad yn gwneud llawer o waith yn y gymuned yn helpu teuluoedd sy’n gadael eu hanifeiliaid yn y fath fodd. A oes polisïau eraill gan y Llywodraeth i hysbysebu’r gwaith y mae elusennau o’r fath yn ei wneud, ac a oes angen mwy o bwerau arnom gan San Steffan i fynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa hon?

Bethan Jenkins: As you already know, Minister, these statistics are painful for us in Wales, and it is that average figure that will be suffering during the current economic situation. Last December I visited the Dogs Trust in Bridgend. The organisation works hard in the community to help families who abandon their dogs in such a way. Does the Government have any other policies to publicise the work of such charities, and do we need more powers from Westminster to enable us to get to grips with this situation?

Elin Jones: Mae’r Ddeddf Lles Anifeiliaid wedi rhoi nifer o bwerau i ni i weithredu a gwella lles anifeiliaid yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi cychwyn ar y gwaith o weithredu

Elin Jones: The Animal Welfare Act has given us a number of powers to act and to improve animal welfare in Wales. We have commenced the work of putting some of

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rhai o’r pwerau hynny. Yr ydym hefyd yn ariannu awdurdodau lleol i wella ymhellach eu gwaith hwy o ran sicrhau lles anifeiliaid. Eleni, mae cyllideb o £1 filiwn o’m hadran i yn mynd i awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer parhau â’r gwaith hwn.

those powers into operation. We also fund local authorities to further improve their work on safeguarding animal welfare. This year, a budget of £1 million is available from my department to local authorities for them to continue that work.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i’r Gweinidog am ei hatebion.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister for her answers.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a ThaiQuestions for the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

A Renewable Energy Strategy Strategaeth Ynni Adnewyddadwy

Q1 Mick Bates: Will the Minister give an update on the development of a renewable energy strategy for Wales? OAQ(3)0849(ESH)

C1 Mick Bates: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ddatblygu strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy ar gyfer Cymru? OAQ(3)0849(ESH)

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): The responses to our 2008 consultation on the renewable energy route-map will contribute to the formulation of an overarching Wales energy strategy. That will be published at the end of the year and will set out our formal policies across the whole energy spectrum.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Bydd yr ymatebion i’n hymgynghoriad ar y trywydd ynni cynaliadwy yn 2008 yn cyfrannu at lunio strategaeth ynni gyffredinol ar gyfer Cymru. Caiff honno ei chyhoeddi ddiwedd y flwyddyn a bydd yn gosod allan ein polisïau ffurfiol ar draws yr holl sbectrwm ynni.

Mick Bates: Yesterday, your Government stated in response to a question for oral answer that I tabled, that due to the scale of interest in renewable technologies in Wales there is no requirement for new nuclear build in our energy future. I am pleased with this recognition that new nuclear build is not a solution, because the estimates for cleaning up nuclear waste have, so far, reached £160 billion, which is the equivalent of a one-off nuclear tax of £3,000 for every person aged over 16 in the UK. Even if we built 10 new nuclear reactors, nuclear power would cut emissions by only 4 per cent, and that would be some time after 2025. Minister, what representations are you making to your Westminster colleagues to abandon their plans for new nuclear power, which continues to distort the energy debate and is leaving Britain without any credible plans to meet its future energy needs?

Mick Bates: Ddoe, dywedodd eich Llywodraeth mewn ateb i gwestiwn llafar a gyflwynwyd gennyf fi nad oes arnom angen gorsaf niwclear newydd ar gyfer dyfodol ein hynni oherwydd maint y diddordeb a ddangoswyd mewn technolegau cynaliadwy yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn falch clywed y gydnabyddiaeth hon nad yw codi cyfleusterau ynni niwclear newydd yn ateb, gan fod yr amcangyfrifon ar gyfer glanhau gwastraff niwclear wedi cyrraedd £160 biliwn hyd yma, sy’n gyfystyr â chodi treth niwclear untro o £3,000 y pen ar bob un dros 16 oed yn y DU. Hyd yn oed os codwn 10 adweithydd niwclear newydd, byddai pŵer niwclear yn lleihau allyriadau 4 y cant yn unig, a hynny rywdro ar ôl 2025. Weinidog, pa sylwadau yr ydych yn eu cyflwyno i’ch cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan i alw arnynt i roi’r gorau i’w cynlluniau ar gyfer cyfleusterau pŵer niwclear newydd, sy’n dal i ystumio’r ddadl ar ynni ac yn gadael Prydain heb ddim cynlluniau credadwy i ddiwallu ei hanghenion ynni yn y dyfodol?

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Jane Davidson: The Assembly Government’s line was not, in fact, published yesterday; the same line has been in existence for the whole of the administration. We have made a number of representations to the UK Government over the past few years, particularly with regard to looking at support for renewable technology. As the Assembly Government, we have made it clear that we have a very strong commitment to the delivery of renewable energy in Wales, that we feel we should be responsible for its delivery, and that we should be developing greater targets for the future in that area.

Jane Davidson: Nid ddoe y cyhoeddwyd polisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, mewn gwirionedd; mae’r un polisi mewn grym drwy gydol oes y weinyddiaeth. Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno nifer o sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, yn enwedig ynghylch ystyried cymorth ar gyfer technoleg adnewyddadwy. Fel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yr ydym wedi egluro ein bod wedi ymrwymo’n gadarn iawn i sicrhau ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru, ein bod yn teimlo y dylem fod yn gyfrifol am ei sicrhau, ac y dylem ddatblygu targedau mwy ar gyfer y dyfodol yn y maes hwnnw.

Mick Bates: Thank you, Minister, for that response. [Laughter.] The UK Government has already admitted that, even if it pursues its toxic nuclear plans for new nuclear power facilities, those would not come on stream until 2020. Therefore, according to the experts, it cannot be used to fill the energy gap that will occur in 2016. In recognising the urgent need for action to create alternative supplies of electricity from renewable resources, Liberal Democrat AMs, MPs, councillors and representatives from all along the Severnside region have carried out a year-long inquiry, examining all the options for energy from the Severn estuary. Minister, do you agree that our conclusion, in favour of a Shoots barrage, combined with a pilot lagoon, and urgent investment in alternatives, including a tidal reef proposal—which, combined, could meet up to 8 per cent of the UK’s electricity needs—is a better option than waiting for the large barrage, which could be constructed by 2030? Our options would enable us to make swift progress towards securing a green and clean supply of affordable energy.

Mick Bates: Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am yr ymateb hwnnw. [Chwerthin.] Mae Llywodraeth y DU eisoes wedi cyfaddef, hyd yn oed os bydd yn dilyn ei chynlluniau niwclear niweidiol ar gyfer cyfleusterau pŵer niwclear newydd, na fyddai’r rheiny’n dechrau cynhyrchu tan 2020. Felly, yn ôl yr arbenigwyr ni ellir ei ddefnyddio i wneud iawn am y diffyg ynni a fydd yn digwydd yn 2016. Wrth gydnabod bod taer angen gweithredu i greu cyflenwadau trydan eraill o adnoddau adnewyddadwy, mae ACau, ASau, cynghorwyr a chynrychiolwyr y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ym mhob rhan o ranbarth glannau Hafren wedi cynnal ymchwiliad blwyddyn o hyd, gan archwilio’r holl ddewisiadau ar gyfer ynni o aber afon Hafren. Weinidog, a ydych yn derbyn bod y casgliad y daethom iddo, o blaid morglawdd Shoots, ynghyd â morlyn rhagbrofol, a buddsoddi ar frys mewn dewisiadau eraill, gan gynnwys cynnig ar gyfer creigres lanw—a fyddai, gyda’i gilydd, yn gallu bodloni hyd at 8 y cant o anghenion trydan y DU—yn ddewis gwell nag aros am y morglawdd mawr allai gael ei godi erbyn 2030? Byddai ein dewisiadau ni yn ein galluogi i symud ymlaen yn fuan i sicrhau cyflenwad o ynni fforddiadwy sy’n wyrdd ac yn lân.

Jane Davidson: No, I do not agree with that at all. [Laughter.] I find it somewhat odd that you would carry out a year-long inquiry without making any representation to me as the Minister with responsibility in the Assembly Government. What I would say is that the way that the UK Government and the Assembly Government— [Interruption.]

Jane Davidson: Nac ydwyf, nid wyf yn derbyn hynny o gwbl. [Chwerthin.] Yr wyf yn ei chael yn rhyfedd braidd y byddech yn cynnal ymchwiliad blwyddyn o hyd heb gyflwyno unrhyw sylwadau i mi fel y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yr hyn a ddywedwn i yw bod y modd y mae Llywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth y

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Cynulliad— [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I want to hear the Minister further.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Yr wyf am glywed y Gweinidog ymhellach.

Jane Davidson: The UK Government and the Assembly Government have worked together to ensure not only that there is a shortlist of a range of options, as recommended by experts—which is out to consultation with everybody, and not just Liberal Democrats—but that there is additional funding from this Government and our colleagues in the south-west and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to ensure that new technologies can be properly taken into account in whatever final decisions we take in the context of taking power from the Severn.

Jane Davidson: Mae Llywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cydweithio i sicrhau nid yn unig fod rhestr fer o amrywiol ddewisiadau, fel y mae arbenigwyr wedi ei argymell—ac ymgynghorir â phawb ar hynny, nid â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn unig—ond bod cyllid ychwanegol ar gael gan y Llywodraeth hon a’n cyd-Aelodau yn ne-orllewin Lloegr ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig i sicrhau bod modd ystyried technolegau newydd yn briodol ym mha bynnag benderfyniadau terfynol a wnawn ynghylch cael pŵer o afon Hafren.

David Lloyd: Minister, do you agree that the lead taken by Woking Borough Council in 1990, as mentioned previously by my colleague Janet Ryder in a short debate, by creating a centralised, renewable, low-carbon energy company to power council-owned buildings is something that we could usefully follow here in Wales? If so, what role can the Welsh Assembly Government play in achieving that aspiration?

David Lloyd: Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno bod yr arweiniad a roddodd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Woking yn 1990 ac a grybwyllwyd eisoes gan fy nghyd-Aelod Janet Ryder mewn dadl fer, drwy greu cwmni ynni carbon isel, adnewyddadwy, canoledig i bweru adeiladau sy’n eiddo i’r cyngor yn rhywbeth y gallai fod yn fuddiol inni ei ddilyn yma yng Nghymru? Os ydych, pa ran y gall Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei chwarae wrth wireddu’r dyhead hwnnw?

Jane Davidson: Woking council has achieved an enormous amount since its first installation back in 1992. It has been instrumental in influencing other local authorities to take such an agenda forward. The Energy Services Company approach adopted by Woking council is something that we are looking at as a potential model for community heat and energy projects.

Jane Davidson: Mae cyngor Woking wedi gwneud llawer iawn ers codi ei weithfa gyntaf yn ôl yn 1992. Mae wedi bod yn gyfrwng i ddylanwadu ar awdurdodau lleol eraill i hyrwyddo agenda o’r fath. Mae dull Energy Services Company a fabwysiadwyd gan gyngor Woking yn rhywbeth yr ydym yn ei ystyried fel model posibl ar gyfer prosiectau gwres ac ynni cymunedol.

2.20 p.m.

However, it is also worth saying that we have our own key innovators in Wales in this area. Ceredigion County Council’s 450 kW woodchip heating scheme in Aberaeron is heating council offices, schools, sheltered housing and a retirement home, and Powys County Council has a similar scheme at a secondary school in Llandrindod Wells. With the introduction of feed-in tariffs next year and renewable heat incentives in 2011, we will see a lot more community schemes like

Fodd bynnag, mae hefyd yn werth dweud bod gennym ein harloeswyr allweddol ein hunain yng Nghymru yn y maes hwn. Mae cynllun gwresogi Cyngor Sir Ceredigion yn Aberaeron sy’n cynhyrchu 450 kW drwy losgi naddion pren yn gwresogi swyddfeydd cyngor, ysgolion, tai gwarchod a chartref henoed, ac mae gan Gyngor Sir Powys gynllun tebyg mewn ysgol uwchradd yn Llandrindod. Yn sgil cynnwys tariffau bwydo i mewn y flwyddyn nesaf a chymhellion ar

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the one in Woking. gyfer gwresog adnewyddadwy yn 2011, gwelwn fwy o lawer o gynlluniau cymunedol fel yr un yn Woking.

Angela Burns: Minister, I listened to Mick Bates talking about the energy gap and to Dai’s question about Woking council. In replying, you mentioned the word ‘consultation’ a quite few times and said that the Government is ‘looking’ at the situation. We can encourage individuals to take quick, small, active steps that will make an enormous difference, but planning authorities are saying no to solar panels because they break the roofline or because the application is for a listed building or the building is in a conservation area, and are saying no to microwind turbines in gardens or on small housing estates because of Welsh Assembly Government planning guidelines and the joint unitary development plan. What really is more important: is it climate change, which everyone talks about and is scared of, or is it adhering to these guidelines? Minister, will you have another look at these guidelines, in the light of the threat of climate change, to see whether we can stop this nonsense and allow individuals to start making a difference for their future?

Angela Burns: Weinidog, gwrandewais ar Mick Bates yn sôn am y diffyg ynni ac ar gwestiwn Dai am gyngor Woking. Wrth ateb, soniech am ‘ymgynghori’ droeon a dweud bod y Llywodraeth yn ‘edrych’ ar y sefyllfa. Gallwn annog unigolion i gymryd camau cyflym, bach, egnïol a fydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth aruthrol, ond mae awdurdodau cynllunio’n gwrthod paneli solar am eu bod yn amharu ar y llinell doeau neu am fod y cais yn un ar gyfer adeilad rhestredig neu am fod yr adeilad mewn ardal gadwraeth, ac yn gwrthod tyrbinau micro-wynt mewn gerddi neu mewn ystadau tai bach oherwydd canllawiau cynllunio Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r cynllun datblygu unedol ar y cyd. Beth sy’n bwysicaf mewn gwirionedd: ai’r newid yn yr hinsawdd, y mae pawb yn sôn amdano ac yn ei ofni, ynteu cadw at y canllawiau hyn? Weinidog, a wnewch chi ailedrych ar y canllawiau hyn, gan gofio bygythiad y newid yn yr hinsawdd, i weld a allwn roi terfyn ar y nonsens hwn a chaniatáu i unigolion ddechrau gwneud gwahaniaeth er mwyn eu dyfodol?

Jane Davidson: I spoken in the Chamber on many occasions about the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to changing the guidelines and have said that we will be bringing regulations forward during this Assembly term.

Jane Davidson: Yr wyf wedi sôn droeon yn y Siambr am ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i newid y canllawiau, ac wedi dweud y byddwn yn rhoi rheoliadau gerbron yn ystod y tymor Cynulliad hwn.

Angela Burns: I am delighted to hear that. When you are doing so, can you take another look at the examples that I have given you? For example, in the national parks, there is a difference between technical advice note 8 guidance and the Welsh Assembly Government policy guidance. You have written to me on that subject but your answer just reiterated the fact that there is a huge inconsistency in wind power development. I would ask you to look again at that, too, because, at the moment, if it were to be tested in law it would prevent wind turbines from being erected in national parks as a result of the environmental and visual aspects outweighing the need for renewable energy. It is a major inconsistency, which I have raised with you before, to which I have still

Angela Burns: Mae’n bleser gennyf glywed hynny. Pan fyddwch yn gwneud hynny, a allwch ailedrych ar yr enghreifftiau yr wyf wedi’u rhoi i chi? Er enghraifft, yn y parciau cenedlaethol mae gwahaniaeth rhwng y canllawiau yn nodyn cyngor technegol 8 a chanllawiau polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Yr ydych wedi ysgrifennu ataf ar y mater hwnnw, ond nid oedd eich ateb ond yn ailadrodd y ffaith fod anghysondeb mawr o ran datblygu pŵer gwynt. Gofynnwn ichi ailedrych ar hynny, hefyd, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd, petai prawf cyfreithiol arno, byddai’n atal codi tyrbinau gwynt mewn parciau cenedlaethol am fod yr agweddau amgylcheddol a gweledol yn gorbwyso’r angen am ynni adnewyddadwy. Mae hwn yn anghysondeb mawr yr wyf wedi’i godi gyda

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not received an answer. I would ask you to consider this issue this term as well, because it needs to be resolved.

chi o’r blaen, ac nid wyf eto wedi cael ateb yn ei gylch. Gofynnwn ichi ystyried y mater hwn yn y tymor hwn hefyd, gan fod angen ei ddatrys.

Jane Davidson: The reason why you say that there is no answer is because we do not recognise this inconsistency. We have been absolutely clear in our policy, as the Assembly Government, in relation to TAN 8, in saying that we will not place large windfarms in areas of outstanding natural beauty or national parks. We are strongly encouraging community renewable sources of energy, including wind, in appropriate locations across Wales, and will continue to do so. I have pledged to bring before the Assembly before the end of this term—as far as I am aware, that timescale is still in place—regulations that will lift some of the barriers to microgeneration. People have warmly welcomed that outside the Assembly.

Jane Davidson: Y rheswm ichi ddweud nad oes ateb yw nad ydym yn derbyn bod anghysondeb. Yr ydym wedi bod yn hollol glir yn ein polisi, fel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, mewn cysylltiad â TAN 8, gan ddweud na fyddwn yn rhoi ffermydd gwynt mawr mewn ardaloedd o harddwch naturiol eithriadol neu barciau cenedlaethol. Yr ydym yn hyrwyddo’n gryf ffynonellau ynni adnewyddadwy cymunedol, mewn lleoliadau addas ledled Cymru, a byddwn yn dal i wneud hynny. Yr wyf wedi addo dod â rheoliadau gerbron y Cynulliad cyn diwedd y tymor hwn—hyd y gwn i, mae’r amserlen honno’n dal mewn grym—a fydd yn dileu rhai o’r rhwystrau rhag microgynhyrchu. Mae pobl wedi rhoi croeso cynnes i hynny y tu allan i’r Cynulliad.

Biomass Biomas

Q2 Chris Franks: Will the Minister make a statement on the use of biomass to generate energy in Wales? OAQ(3)0830(ESH)

C2 Chris Franks: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddefnyddio biomas i gynhyrchu ynni yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0830(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Our bioenergy action plan for Wales is out for public consultation until 22 May. It puts forward ideas on how we can use sustainable biomass to generate heat and power and, possibly, transport biofuels. The effective use of biomass would reduce our consumption of fossil fuels and the associated carbon emissions.

Jane Davidson: Bydd ymgynghori cyhoeddus ar ein cynllun gweithredu ar fio-ynni i Gymru tan 22 Mai. Mae’n cyflwyno syniadau am y modd y gallwn ddefnyddio biomas cynaliadwy i gynhyrchu gwres a phŵer, ac efallai fiodanwydd ar gyfer trafnidiaeth. Byddai defnyddio biomas yn effeithiol yn golygu ein bod yn defnyddio llai o danwydd ffosil ac yn lleihau allyriadau carbon cysylltiedig.

Chris Franks: Will you comment on the proposals to create biomass plants in Barry? As you are aware, there are significant fears among the local population about the environmental risks to parts of the town. The proposed biomass units will be very close to houses and, if the plans are approved, there are fears about the environmental damage that the emissions might cause.

Chris Franks: A wnewch chi sylw am y cynigion i godi gweithfeydd biomas yn y Barri? Fel y gwyddoch, mae ofnau sylweddol ymysg y bobl leol am y peryglon amgylcheddol i rannau o’r dref. Bydd yr unedau biomas arfaethedig yn agos iawn i dai, ac os cymeradwyir y cynlluniau mae ofnau am y difrod amgylcheddol y gallai’r allyriadau ei achosi.

Jane Davidson: I can say, in broad terms, that there is often a major gap between the fears of local residents in relation to

Jane Davidson: Gallaf ddweud, a siarad yn gyffredinol, fod bwlch mawr yn aml rhwng ofnau preswylwyr lleol ynghylch rhywbeth y

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something with which they are unfamiliar and the reality of delivery. I am sure that you would accept that. As the proposal for the plant is below 50 MW, the local planning authority will be the consenting authority. It will have to take into account all the issues that you have raised today. As the Minister with responsibility for planning, I cannot comment on an individual planning application, but I would suggest that you—and anyone else who has concerns—make representations to the local authority to make sure that the issues that concern you are taken fully into account in the consideration of the planning permission.

maent yn anghyfarwydd ag ef a’r canlyniad gwirioneddol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddech yn derbyn hynny. Gan fod y cynnig ar gyfer y weithfa yn llai na 50 MW, yr awdurdod cynllunio lleol fydd yr awdurdod caniatáu. Bydd yn rhaid iddo ystyried yr holl faterion yr ydych wedi’u codi heddiw. Fel y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros gynllunio, ni allaf wneud sylw am gais cynllunio penodol, ond byddwn yn awgrymu eich bod chi—ac unrhyw un arall sy’n pryderu—yn cyflwyno sylwadau i’r awdurdod lleol i sicrhau bod y materion sy’n achosi pryder i chi yn cael eu hystyried yn llawn wrth drafod y caniatâd cynllunio.

Alun Cairns: The focus of attention and innovation in this area of policy is leading to novel and different types of energy generation. On the one hand, that can be positive but, on the other hand, it can also create great uncertainty. What sort of support and guidance can you and your department offer planning authorities in dealing with this sort of issue? What information can you and the Welsh Assembly Government make available with regard to having a better understanding of the opportunities or potential threats of the novel, innovative and new power generation systems that are introduced?

Alun Cairns: Mae cyfeiriad y sylw a’r arloesi yn y maes polisi hwn yn arwain at fathau newydd a gwahanol o ddulliau cynhyrchu ynni. Ar y naill law gall hynny fod yn gadarnhaol, ond ar y llaw arall gall greu ansicrwydd mawr hefyd. Pa fath o gymorth ac arweiniad y gallwch chi a’ch adran eu cynnig i awdurdodau cynllunio wrth iddynt ddelio â mater fel hwn? Pa wybodaeth y gallwch chi a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei darparu i gael gwell dealltwriaeth o’r cyfleoedd neu’r bygythiadau posibl sy’n gysylltiedig â’r systemau cynhyrchu pŵer newydd ac arloesol a gyflwynir?

Jane Davidson: The fact that we have a bioenergy action plan that is out for public consultation gives people such as you the opportunity to respond to the Assembly Government, and also to express whether there is a need for additional support and guidance other than that outlined in the action plan. The crucial element is that this is a responsible Government that is taking a responsible approach in looking at sustainable biomass to generate both heat and power, and we will continue to use local planning authorities as independent bodies in respect of assessing whether an application is appropriate in their area. In relation to large installations utilising biomass, the environmental permitting regulations, which came into force in April last year, require operators to obtain permits to operate, and those permits require very substantial environmental conditions to be in place before they are granted.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r ffaith fod gennym gynllun gweithredu ar fio-ynni sy’n destun ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus yn gyfle i bobl fel chi ymateb i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a hefyd i ddweud a oes angen cymorth ac arweiniad ychwanegol heblaw’r hyn sydd wedi’i ddisgrifio yn y cynllun gweithredu. Yr elfen hanfodol yw mai Llywodraeth gyfrifol yw hon sy’n gweithredu’n gyfrifol wrth ystyried defnyddio biomas cynaliadwy i gynhyrchu gwres a phŵer, a byddwn yn dal i ddefnyddio awdurdodau cynllunio lleol fel cyrff annibynnol mewn cysylltiad ag asesu a yw cais yn addas yn eu hardal. Gyda golwg ar weithfeydd mawr sy’n defnyddio biomas, mae’r rheoliadau trwyddedu amgylcheddol, a ddaeth i rym ym mis Ebrill y llynedd, yn mynnu bod gweithredwyr yn cael trwyddedau i weithredu, a rhaid bodloni amodau amgylcheddol sylweddol iawn cyn rhoi’r trwyddedau hynny.

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The Tidy Towns Initiative Menter Trefi Taclus

Q3 Sandy Mewies: Will the Minister provide an update on the Tidy Towns initiative in Wales? OAQ(3)0838(ESH)

C3 Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y fenter Trefi Taclus yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0838(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Tidy Towns is a two-part initiative worth £4 million per annum between Keep Wales Tidy and all 22 local authorities. I recently attended a national stakeholder event in Aberystwyth to celebrate the achievements of the first year, to share good practice, and to look ahead to future achievements and developments.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r fenter Trefi Taclus yn fenter ddwy ran sy’n werth £4 miliwn y flwyddyn rhwng Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus a phob un o’r 22 o awdurdodau lleol. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol yn ddiweddar mewn digwyddiad cenedlaethol i randdeiliaid yn Aberystwyth i ddathlu cyflawniadau’r flwyddyn gyntaf, rhannu arferion da, ac edrych ymlaen at gyflawniadau a datblygiadau yn y dyfodol.

Sandy Mewies: A spring-clean weekend in Mold, in my Delyn constituency, was recently organised with the support of the Tidy Towns initiative, and it was a great success. More than 200 volunteers of all ages took part—people from different organisations and individuals, including me. We collected more than 300 bags of rubbish, the town was litter-picked and car parks were left pristine. Minister, do you agree that those efforts are to be congratulated, and that initiatives like that, which involve local communities in a positive way, should continue to be supported by our Government?

Sandy Mewies: Trefnwyd penwythnos lanhau yn ddiweddar yn yr Wyddgrug sydd yn fy etholaeth i, sef Delyn, gyda chymorth y fenter Trefi Taclus, ac yr oedd yn llwyddiant mawr. Cymerwyd rhan gan dros 200 o wirfoddolwyr o bob oed—pobl o wahanol gyrff ac unigolion, a minnau’n un ohonynt. Casglwyd dros 300 o fagiau ysbwriel gennym, codwyd ysbwriel oddi ar y llawr yn y dref a gadawyd y meysydd parcio fel newydd. Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno y dylid canmol yr ymdrechion hynny, ac y dylai ein Llywodraeth ddal i gefnogi mentrau o’r fath, sy’n ymgysylltu â chymunedau lleol mewn modd cadarnhaol?

Jane Davidson: There is guaranteed funding in place for the delivery of the Tidy Towns initiative. That has been important, because the additional funding has been able to bring together volunteers and local authorities—and Assembly Members, MPs and others—to take part in that worthwhile community activity. You talked about your experience in Delyn, but in the wider Flintshire authority area, since the launch of Tidy Towns, there have been 117 community group events, 98 clean-ups and numerous other environmental improvement projects. We are seeing great success with regard to local environment quality.

Jane Davidson: Mae cyllid wedi’i warantu i redeg y fenter Trefi Taclus. Mae hynny wedi bod yn bwysig, gan fod y cyllid ychwanegol wedi bod yn fodd i ddod â gwirfoddolwyr ac awdurdodau lleol—ac Aelodau Cynulliad, ASau ac eraill—at ei gilydd i gymryd rhan yn y gweithgarwch cymunedol buddiol hwnnw. Soniech am eich profiad yn Nelyn, ond yn ardal awdurdod sir y Fflint yn fwy cyffredinol, ers lansio’r fenter Trefi Taclus, cafwyd 117 o ddigwyddiadau grwpiau cymunedol, 98 o ymgyrchoedd glanhau a nifer mawr o brosiectau gwella amgylcheddol eraill. Yr ydym yn gweld llwyddiant mawr o ran ansawdd yr amgylchedd lleol.

Andrew R.T. Davies: A perennial problem is the litter that fast-food outlets and convenience outlets in particular generate. I appreciate that it is a perennial problem. Many volunteers who are active in the Tidy

Andrew R.T. Davies: Un broblem barhaus yw’r ysbwriel sy’n cael ei greu gan siopau prydau parod a siopau hwylus yn neilltuol. Sylweddolaf ei bod yn broblem barhaus. Mae nifer o wirfoddolwyr sy’n cymryd rhan yn y

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Towns initiative work tirelessly to look after their communities, but, sadly, litter from many of these outlets is constantly spread through the community. What efforts are you undertaking with your colleague, the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, to help to address those issues by trying to bring local enforcement action against outlets, and by educating people that they have a responsibility to dispose of litter responsibly?

fenter Trefi Taclus yn gweithio’n ddiflino i ofalu am eu cymunedau, ond, gwaetha’r modd, caiff ysbwriel o lawer o’r siopau hyn ei ledaenu’n barhaus drwy’r gymuned. Pa ymdrechion sydd gennych ar y gweill gyda’ch cyd-Weinidog, y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol, i helpu delio â’r materion hynny drwy geisio cymryd camau gorfodi lleol yn erbyn siopau, a thrwy addysgu pobl ei bod yn gyfrifoldeb arnynt waredu ysbwriel yn gyfrifol?

2.30 p.m.

Jane Davidson: I have been in a meeting today with cabinet members in charge of waste from all local authorities in Wales. A point that was made strongly by cabinet members was that those local authorities that are undertaking education initiatives in their local area are also seeing huge increases in the amount of diversion from landfill. Therefore, we know that such education—particularly door-knocking, working with schools and getting schools to adopt a street, linking with the eco-schools agenda, the tidy towns agenda and others—is very effective. I intend to hold a litter summit this term to bring people together to look again at this issue in light of the launch of the waste strategy and the launch of our sustainable development scheme.

Jane Davidson: Yr wyf wedi bod mewn cyfarfod heddiw gydag aelodau cabinet sy’n gyfrifol am wastraff o’r holl awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru. Pwynt a leisiwyd yn gryf gan aelodau cabinet oedd bod yr awdurdodau hynny sy’n ymgymryd â chynlluniau addysg yn eu hardal leol hefyd yn gweld cynnydd aruthrol ym maint y gwastraff sy’n cael ei arbed rhag mynd i safleoedd tirlenwi. O’r herwydd, gwyddom fod addysg o’r fath—yn enwedig curo drysau, gweithio gydag ysgolion a dwyn perswâd ar ysgolion i fabwysiadu stryd, cysylltu â’r agenda eco-ysgolion, yr agenda trefi taclus ac eraill—yn dra effeithiol. Bwriadaf gynnal uwchgynhadledd ar ysbwriel y tymor hwn i ddwyn pobl ynghyd i ystyried y mater hwn unwaith yn rhagor, yn wyneb lansio’r strategaeth wastraff a lansio ein cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy.

Joyce Watson: I would like to add my congratulations to the 19,000 volunteers who have helped to make Wales a cleaner country over the past year. However, while dedicated individuals can do their bit, councils also need to show leadership in cracking down on fly-tipping and other littering offences. The latest figures show that clearing up items that have been fly-tipped has cost the taxpayer in Wales more than £8.5 million over three years. Some councils are, of course, better than others when it comes to surveillance and prosecution. In my area, for example, Carmarthenshire County Council has successfully prosecuted 91 offenders; in the same time, Pembrokeshire County Council did not prosecute anyone and did not even issue a single fine. Does the Minister agree

Joyce Watson: Carwn ychwanegu fy llongyfarchion i’r 19,000 o wirfoddolwyr a gyfrannodd at wneud Cymru’n wlad lanach dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Fodd bynnag, er bod unigolion ymroddedig yn gallu gwneud eu rhan, mae angen i gynghorau hefyd ddangos arweiniad drwy gosbi tipio anghyfreithlon a throseddau ysbwriel eraill yn llym. Dengys y ffigurau diweddaraf fod clirio eitemau wedi eu tipio’n anghyfreithlon wedi costio dros £8.5 miliwn i’r trethdalwr yng Nghymru dros dair blynedd. Mae rhai cynghorau, yn naturiol, yn well na’i gilydd o ran gwyliadwriaeth ac erlyn. Yn fy ardal i, er enghraifft, mae Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin wedi erlyn 91 o droseddwyr yn llwyddiannus; yn yr un cyfnod, nid erlyniwyd neb gan Gyngor Sir Penfro, ac ni osodwyd yr un ddirwy, hyd

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that this is completely unacceptable? What do you think can be done to encourage local authorities to come down hard on fly-tippers?

yn oed. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod hyn yn gwbl annerbyniol? Beth, yn eich tyb chi, y gellir ei wneud i annog awdurdodau lleol i gosbi’n llym y rheiny sy’n tipio’n anghyfreithlon?

Jane Davidson: Thank you very much. I was very interested in the work that you and others have done on highlighting this agenda. We have been able to utilise the many pieces of legislation available, such as the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005, under which major penalties can be delivered for fly-tipping.

Jane Davidson: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yr oedd gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn y gwaith yr ydych chi ac eraill wedi’i wneud yn tynnu sylw at yr agenda hon. Yr ydym wedi gallu defnyddio’r darnau niferus o ddeddfwriaeth sydd ar gael, megis Deddf Cymdogaethau Glân a’r Amgylchedd 2005, sy’n caniatáu gosod cosbau llym am dipio anghyfreithlon.

From the Assembly Government’s perspective, we launched Pride in our Communities, which was a partnership approach with the Environment Agency to tackle fly-tipping two years ago. That is a five-year programme. We have also provided a subsidy of £44,000 to local authorities in Wales to provide specialist training in enforcement action against fly-tippers. We expect local authorities to deal with fly-tipping and to use the resources that we have provided for them. We know that greater penalties are being put in place through legislation, which can be used by local authorities. I know that every Member in this Chamber would want to stamp out fly-tipping. The use of tidy towns initiatives and volunteers among other things means that we can often identify trouble spots very quickly, clear them, and then monitor them from the local community to make sure that they are not revisited. We need to be very strong on that approach as well.

O safbwynt Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, aethom ati i lansio Ymfalchïo yn ein Cymunedau ddwy flynedd yn ôl, sef partneriaeth gydag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd i fynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon. Mae honno’n rhaglen bum-mlynedd. Yr ydym hefyd wedi rhoi cymhorthdal o £44,000 i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i ddarparu hyfforddiant arbenigol ar gamau gorfodi yn erbyn pobl sy’n tipio’n anghyfreithlon. Disgwyliwn i awdurdodau lleol ddelio â thipio anghyfreithlon a defnyddio’r adnoddau yr ydym wedi darparu ar eu cyfer. Gwyddom fod cosbau trymach yn cael eu gosod drwy ddeddfwriaeth, a gall awdurdodau lleol ddefnyddio’r rhain. Gwn y byddai pob Aelod yn y Siambr hon yn dymuno rhoi terfyn ar dipio anghyfreithlon. Mae defnyddio cynlluniau trefi taclus a gwirfoddolwyr, ymhlith pethau eraill, yn golygu ein bod yn aml yn gallu nodi mannau problemus yn gyflym iawn, eu clirio, ac yna’u monitro o’r gymuned leol i sicrhau na chânt eu defnyddio eto. Rhaid inni fod yn dra chadarn yn yr agwedd honno hefyd.

Wind Energy Ynni Gwynt

Q4 Leanne Wood: Will the Minister make a statement on wind energy in Wales? OAQ(3)0832(ESH)

C4 Leanne Wood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ynni’r gwynt yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0832(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Wales has 420MW of operational wind energy: 360MW onshore and 60MW offshore at North Hoyle. A 100MW windfarm is under construction at Rhyl Flats, and the 750MW Gwynt y Môr offshore project was given consent in December 2008. In addition, around 2,000MW of onshore wind energy is at

Jane Davidson: Mae gan Gymru 420MW o ynni gwynt gweithredol: 360MW ar y tir a 60MW ar y môr yn North Hoyle. Mae fferm wynt 100MW yn cael ei hadeiladu ar Wastadeddau’r Rhyl, a rhoddwyd caniatâd i’r prosiect Gwynt y Môr, prosiect 750MW ar y môr, ym mis Rhagfyr 2008. At hynny, mae oddeutu 2,000MW o ynni gwynt ar y tir wedi

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various stages in the planning system. cyrraedd amrywiol gamau yn y system gynllunio.

Leanne Wood: Thank you for your answer, Minister. Wind power is one of the most readily available technologies at the moment and we must support and promote it if we are serious about fighting climate change. However, as you will be aware, onshore windfarms can be controversial in local communities. In the Valleys, for example, communities have argued that, yet again, their local environment is being exploited by large energy companies, which are receiving subsidies to install wind turbines with no obvious or immediate benefit for local people.

Leanne Wood: Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Ynni’r gwynt yw un o’r technolegau hawsaf eu cael ar hyn o bryd, a rhaid inni ei gefnogi a’i hyrwyddo os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch brwydro yn erbyn newid yn yr hinsawdd. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwyddoch gall ffermydd gwynt ar y tir fod yn asgwrn cynnen mewn cymunedau lleol. Yn y Cymoedd, er enghraifft, mae cymunedau wedi dadlau, unwaith yn rhagor, fod eu hamgylchedd yn cael ei ecsbloetio gan gwmnïau ynni mawr, sy’n cael cymorthdaliadau i osod tyrbinau gwynt heb unrhyw fudd amlwg nac uniongyrchol i bobl leol.

One way to resolve this problem would be to give local communities a stake in windfarms. Community ownership of wind turbines is already practised in Wales. The first ever community-owned wind turbine was switched on in the Dulais valley in 2003. However, it is not common and the majority of windfarms in Wales make profit for energy companies that are based outside Wales. What actions can the Welsh Government take to encourage and promote community ownership or part-ownership of windfarms? Can you issue planning guidance to enable communities to benefit socially and financially from wind turbines near their homes?

Un ffordd i ddatrys y broblem hon fyddai rhoi budd i gymunedau lleol mewn ffermydd gwynt. Mae perchnogaeth gymunedol dros dyrbinau gwynt eisoes yn digwydd yng Nghymru. Taniwyd y tyrbin gwynt cyntaf erioed i fod yn eiddo i’r gymuned yng Nghwm Dulais yn 2003. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n beth cyffredin, ac mae mwyafrif y ffermydd gwynt yng Nghymru yn cynhyrchu elw i gwmnïau ynni y tu allan i Gymru. Pa gamau y gall Llywodraeth Cymru eu cymryd i annog a hyrwyddo perchnogaeth neu ranberchenogaeth gymunedol dros ffermydd gwynt? A allwch gyhoeddi canllawiau cynllunio i alluogi cymunedau i elwa’n gymdeithasol ac yn ariannol o dyrbinau gwynt ger eu cartrefi?

Jane Davidson: It is important to say that the majority of onshore windfarms in Wales provide community benefits in the form of payment to local community bodies. That payment is usually per installed megawatt. According to a study undertaken by Cardiff University, £2,000 per megawatt per annum is the standard amount generated. I am keen to support community-scale renewable energy generation. We are working on a bid for European funding to support community renewable projects, which is currently out to tender. We hope to complete the procurement process relatively shortly and we will present a finance business plan to the Wales European Funding Office in the summer. I will then be able to make a clear statement about our endorsement of community

Jane Davidson: Mae’n bwysig dweud bod mwyafrif y ffermydd gwynt ar y tir yng Nghymru yn dod â budd i’r gymuned ar ffurf tâl i gyrff cymunedol lleol. Mae’r taliad hwnnw fel rheol am bob megawat a osodir. Yn ôl astudiaeth a wnaed gan Brifysgol Caerdydd, £2,000 y megawat y flwyddyn yw’r swm safonol a gynhyrchir. Yr wyf yn awyddus i gefnogi cynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy ar raddfa gymunedol. Yr ydym yn gweithio ar gais am gyllid Ewropeaidd i gefnogi prosiectau adnewyddadwy cymunedol, ac mae hwnnw allan ar dender ar hyn o bryd. Gobeithiwn gwblhau’r broses gaffael yn weddol fuan, a byddwn yn cyflwyno cynllun busnes cyllid i Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru yn yr haf. Bryd hynny, gallaf wneud datganiad clir

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renewable energy generation projects up to 50 MW, which is the Assembly Government’s limit.

am ein cymeradwyaeth i brosiectau cynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy cymunedol hyd at 50 MW, sef terfyn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): I know that you, in fairness, and the whole Assembly have been in favour of devolving power over large renewable energy projects—indeed all energy projects over 50 MW. Given that that does not seem to be happening any time soon, could you give us some guidance on how to tackle these large projects that are coming through? You referred to some that are outside our planning control and the First Minister and the Government said, in fairness to them, that there should be an inquiry into the Gwynt y Môr project. So do you think that such large projects should be subject to inquiries given that we are not likely to have the power over these when they come forward?

Arwreinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): I fod yn deg, gwn eich bod chi, a’r Cynulliad cyfan, wedi bod o blaid datganoli pŵer dros brosiectau ynni adnewyddadwy sylweddol—yn wir, pob prosiect ynni dros 50 MW. Gan ei bod yn ymddangos na fydd hynny’n digwydd yn y dyfodol agos, a allech roi rhyw arweiniad inni ynghylch sut i fynd i’r afael â’r prosiectau sylweddol hyn sy’n datblygu? Yr oeddech yn cyfeirio at rai sydd y tu hwnt i’n rheolaeth cynllunio ni, a dywedodd y Prif Weinidog a’r Llywodraeth, i fod yn deg, y dylid cael ymchwiliad i brosiect Gwynt y Môr. Felly a ydych yn credu y dylai prosiectau mor sylweddol fod yn destun ymchwiliadau, gan nad ydym yn debygol o gael grym dros y rhain pan ddigwyddant?

Jane Davidson: The major section 36 projects are designated under the Electricity Act 2003 and are subject to large inquiries at any rate. However, as you say, such matters will continue to be determined by the UK Government.

Jane Davidson: Dynodwyd y prif brosiectau adran 36 dan Ddeddf Trydan 2003, ac y maent yn destun ymchwiliadau sylweddol beth bynnag. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedwch, bydd materion o’r fath yn dal i gael eu gwneud gan Llywodraeth y DU.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): The Assembly Government’s renewable energy route map suggests that onshore wind will provide 750,000 tonnes of carbon savings by 2025. Do you believe that we are on track to realising those predicted savings and what alternative planning is taking place to ensure the delivery of affordable energy while fulfilling our moral obligation to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 9 per cent per annum?

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Mae map llwybr ynni adnewyddadwy Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn awgrymu y bydd gwynt ar y tir yn creu oddeutu 750,000 tunnell o arbedion carbon erbyn 2025. A ydych yn credu ein bod ar drywydd sicrhau’r arbedion hynny a ragwelir, a pha gynlluniau amgen sydd ar droed i sicrhau darparu ynni fforddiadwy wrth gyflawni ein hymrwymiad moesol i sicrhau gostyngiad o 9 y cant y flwyddyn mewn allyriadau carbon deuocsid?

Jane Davidson: Technical advie note 8 includes targets for 2010 and 2020 respectively. The target for 2010 is 4 TWh and we are currently at 2.5 TWh. We will have to wait to see how much we can get on ground by 2010. However, the 2020 target is 7 TWh. The wind projects in development due to be realised over the next five to six years will total around 9 TWh, which will give us a total capacity of 11 TWh over the next five to six years. So, there has been rapid movement over the last couple of years

Jane Davidson: Mae nodyn cyngor technegol 8 yn cynnwys targedau ar gyfer 2010 a 2020 yn eu tro. Y targed ar gyfer 2010 yw 4 TWh ac yr ydym wedi cyrraedd 2.5 TWh ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yn rhaid inni aros i weld ble fyddwn ni wedi cyrraedd erbyn 2010. Fodd bynnag, targed 2020 yw 7 TWh. Bydd y prosiectau gwynt sy’n cael eu datblygu ac sydd i gael eu gwireddu dros y pum neu chwe blynedd nesaf yn creu cyfanswm o ryw 9 TWh, a fydd yn rhoi inni gyfanswm capasiti o 11 TWh dros y pum neu

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to take this agenda forward. I believe that in the context of meeting our challenges under climate change, we need to use every mechanism at our disposal. That is what we are discussing in the climate change commission. In my statement on the commission’s work yesterday, I told you that although we have the 3 per cent political target, we know that the science is leading us further down the line and therefore we are looking at all our targets and at what can be delivered under 3 per cent, 6 per cent and 9 per cent. That approach will be taken forward when we publish the detailed proposals in the second stage of our climate change strategy later this term.

chwe blynedd nesaf. Felly, gwelwyd symud cyflym dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy ddiwethaf i yrru’r agenda hon yn ei blaen. O ran wynebu ein heriau dan y newid yn yr hinsawdd, credaf fod angen inni ddefnyddio pob mecanwaith sydd wrth law. Dyna yr ydym yn ei drafod yn y comisiwn ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd. Yn fy natganiad ar waith y comisiwn ddoe, dywedais wrthych, er gwaethaf y targed gwleidyddol o 3 y cant sydd gennym, ein bod yn gwybod bod gwyddoniaeth yn ein tywys ymhellach i lawr y llinell a’n bod, o’r herwydd, yn edrych ar ein holl dargedau ac ar yr hyn y gellir ei sicrhau dan 3 y cant, 6 y cant a 9 y cant. Gweithredir yr agwedd honno pan gyhoeddwn y cynigion manwl yn ail gam ein strategaeth ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd yn ddiweddarach y tymor hwn.

Biodiversity in the Heads of the Valleys Bioamrywiaeth ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd

Q5 Chris Franks: Will the Minister make a statement on biodiversity in the Heads of the Valleys? OAQ(30)0829(ESH)

C5 Chris Franks: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fioamrywiaeth ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd? OAQ(30)0829(ESH)

Jane Davidson: The Heads of the Valleys contain a number of important conservation sites, including the Cwm Clydach woodlands and the Blaen Cynon special areas of conservation. Biodiversity is being supported through the Welsh Assembly Government’s environment and woodland strategies and through the implementation of local biodiversity action plans.

Jane Davidson: Mae Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn cynnwys nifer o safleoedd cadwraeth pwysig, gan gynnwys coetiroedd Cwm Clydach ac ardaloedd cadwraeth arbennig Blaen Cynon. Cefnogir bioamrywiaeth drwy strategaethau amgylchedd a choetir Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a thrwy weithredu cynlluniau gweithredu bioamrywiaeth yn lleol.

Chris Franks: It is good to hear that the Government is committed to biodiversity. The Heads of the Valleys have traditionally been the stronghold of the lapwing according to the RSPB. The post-industrial landscape provides ideal conditions for lapwings but the birds are under threat for a number of reasons, including land-use change, the use of pesticides and the illegal use of off-road vehicles, which cause problems for their nesting sites.

Chris Franks: Mae’n braf clywed bod y Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i fioamrywiaeth. Yn hanesyddol, mae Blaenau’r Cymoedd wedi bod yn gadarnle i’r gornchwiglen, yn ôl yr RSPB. Mae’r tirlun ôl-ddiwydiannol yn creu amodau delfrydol i’r gornchwiglen, ond mae hi dan fygythiad am nifer o resymau, gan gynnwys newid wrth ddefnyddio tir, defnyddio plaladdwyr a defnyddio cerbydau oddi-ar-y-ffordd yn anghyfreithlon, sy’n achosi problemau i’w safleoedd nythu.

2.40 p.m.

Furthermore, up to 30 per cent of lapwing breeding sites are allocated for development in the next few years. I am sure that you will agree that it is essential that we maintain biodiversity and a sustainable environment in

At hynny, mae hyd at 30 y cant o safleoedd magu cornchwiglod wedi’u dyrannu ar gyfer datblygiad yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol inni gynnal bioamrywiaeth ac

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the Heads of the Valleys area. I welcome the co-operation between the Government and the RSPB to help with the survival of the lapwing. Will you comment on the work of the Heads of the Valleys lapwing project?

amgylchedd cynaliadwy yn ardal Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Croesawaf y cydweithrediad rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r RSPB i helpu’r gornchwiglen i oroesi. A wnewch chi sylw am waith prosiect y gornchwiglen ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd?

Jane Davidson: It is true to say that the lapwing declined by 77 per cent between 1987 and 1998, which led to its red listing. It was a huge decline and therefore it was critically important that there were both local and national species recovery initiatives. As you say, the RSPB led a lapwing recovery programme that identified all key breeding sites across Wales so that opportunities for positive habitat management could then be sought. What we have seen locally is that populations have responded to such management measures. The site-based monitoring has shown a very positive response to that targeted management. There is now a draft Heads of the Valleys lapwing strategy document, which has been produced to outline a 10-year vision for lapwing recovery in the Heads of the Valleys, which is a key area. That is about a partnership between the Department for Environment, Sustainability and Housing in the Welsh Assembly Government, the Department for the Economy and Transport, the RSPB and Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council. They all worked on developing that strategy and a number of key stakeholders will be involved. However, the evidence suggests that focused activity can ensure that we arrest the current decline of lapwings in Wales.

Jane Davidson: Mae’n wir dweud bod y gornchwiglen wedi dirywio 77 y cant rhwng 1987 ac 1998, a arweiniodd at roi’r aderyn ar y rhestr goch. Yr oedd yn ddirywiad aruthrol, ac o’r herwydd yr oedd yn hollbwysig cael cynlluniau adfer rhywogaeth ar lefel leol a chenedlaethol fel ei gilydd. Fel y dywedwch, arweiniodd yr RSPB raglen i adfer y gornchwiglen a ddynododd yr holl safleoedd magu allweddol ledled Cymru, er mwyn chwilio am gyfleoedd i reoli cynefinoedd yn gadarnhaol. Yr hyn a welsom yn lleol yw bod poblogaethau wedi ymateb i gamau rheoli o’r fath. Mae’r monitro ar-safle wedi dangos ymateb cadarnhaol iawn i’r rheolaeth dargedu honno. Erbyn hyn mae yna ddrafft o ddogfen strategaeth ar gyfer y gornchwiglen ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd, a gynhyrchwyd i amlinellu gweledigaeth 10-mlynedd ar gyfer adfer y gornchwiglen ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd, sy’n ardal allweddol. Mae hynny’n golygu partneriaeth rhwng Adran Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, RSPB a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Blaenau Gwent. Buont i gyd yn gweithio ar ddatblygu’r strategaeth honno a bydd nifer o randdeiliaid allweddol yn cael eu cynnwys. Fodd bynnag, awgryma tystiolaeth y gall gweithgarwch penodedig sicrhau ein bod yn atal y dirywiad presennol yn niferoedd y gornchwiglen yng Nghymru.

Nick Ramsay: I am pleased to hear that the Minister recognises the importance of biodiversity and the huge range of biodiversity in the Heads of the Valleys corridor. Chris Franks has already mentioned the lapwing situation. Prior to the construction of the Abergavenny to Gilwern section of the Heads of the Valleys road, there were concerns about bat and great crested newt populations. Now that that stretch of road is complete, can the Minister give an assurance that she is working with local groups to ensure that that stretch of road will be monitored, to see whether those populations and the biodiversity have been

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn falch clywed bod y Gweinidog yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd bioamrywiaeth a’r amrywiaeth aruthrol o fioamrywiaeth sydd yng nghoridor Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Mae Chris Franks eisoes wedi cyfeirio at sefyllfa’r gornchwiglen. Cyn adeiladu Ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd rhwng y Fenni a Gilwern yr oedd pryderon ynghylch poblogaethau’r ystlum a’r fadfall ddŵr gribog. Gyda’r darn hwnnw o’r ffordd wedi’i gwblhau yn awr, a all y Gweinidog sicrhau ei bod yn gweithio gyda grwpiau lleol i sicrhau y caiff y darn hwnnw o ffordd ei fonitro, i weld a yw’r ffordd wedi effeithio ar y poblogaethau hynny ac ar fioamrywiaeth, ac

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affected by the road, and that any lessons that were learnt during the construction of that road will be used as further stretches are dualled?

y defnyddir unrhyw wersi a ddysgwyd wrth adeiladu’r ffordd honno wrth i ddarnau pellach gael eu deuoli?

Jane Davidson: I am very happy to write to you about the current monitoring arrangements in the context of that. However, there is an important general point that before any major scheme, such as a road, can take place, we ensure that all our statutory environmental obligations in relation to biodiversity are complied with, and we will not move from that position. Sometimes, people want to see decisions being taken more quickly, but it is important that we give great credence to our biodiversity duty, and we do that in the Assembly.

Jane Davidson: Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon ysgrifennu atoch ynghylch y trefniadau monitro cyfredol yng nghyd-destun hynny. Fodd bynnag, pwynt cyffredinol pwysig yw’r ffaith ei bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau, cyn i unrhyw gynllun sylweddol ddigwydd, megis ffordd, y cydymffurfir â’n holl ymrwymiadau amgylcheddol statudol, ac ni fyddwn yn ildio ar y safbwynt hwnnw. Weithiau, mae ar bobl eisiau gweld gwneud penderfyniadau’n gyflymach, ond mae’n bwysig inni roi pwys mawr ar ein dyletswydd o ran bioamrywiaeth, a gwnawn hynny yn y Cynulliad.

Alun Davies: One of the most striking and frightening aspects of the evidence that we received from the RSPB recently was the decline in biodiversity in different parts of Wales, and the work that the Assembly Government is doing to address that is to be welcomed. However, the issues in the Heads of the Valleys are, to some extent, quite exciting because we have there an opportunity to create new habitats, rather than simply safeguarding existing ones. Some of the work has been driven by the regeneration policies of the Government. The economic development policies of the Government lead to the creation of new habitats and the protection of biodiversity and different species in the area. Do you agree, Minister, that in the past we always had to make a choice between economic development and a clean environment, but now is a time when we demand both?

Alun Davies: Un o’r agweddau mwyaf trawiadol a dychrynllyd ar y dystiolaeth a gawsom gan yr RSPB yn ddiweddar oedd y dirywiad mewn bioamrywiaeth mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru, ac mae’r gwaith y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â hynny i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, mae’r problemau ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd, i ryw raddau, yn bur gyffrous, oherwydd mae gennym yno gyfle i greu cynefinoedd newydd, yn hytrach na dim ond diogelu rhai sydd eisoes yn bod. Llywiwyd rhywfaint o’r gwaith gan bolisïau adfywio’r Llywodraeth. Mae polisïau datblygu economaidd y Llywodraeth yn esgor ar greu cynefinoedd newydd a gwarchod bioamrywiaeth ac amrywiol rywogaethau yn yr ardal. A gytunwch, Weinidog, ein bod, yn y gorffennol, wedi gorfod dewis bob amser rhwng datblygu economaidd ac amgylchedd glân, ond ein bod heddiw yn mynnu cael y ddau?

Jane Davidson: I would absolutely agree that we should demand economic development and a clean environment. Of course, our green jobs strategy is predicated on looking at how we can green existing organisations as well as creating other green opportunities. Our commitments in terms of biodiversity mean that we have local biodiversity action plans across Wales. It is important to say that not all bird species are declining. Some wild bird populations are declining, for example, those of the bullfinch,

Jane Davidson: Cytunwn i’r carn y dylem fynnu cael datblygu economaidd ac amgylchedd glân. Yn naturiol, mae ein strategaeth ar swyddi gwyrdd wedi’i seilio ar ystyried sut y gallwn droi sefydliadau presennol yn wyrdd yn ogystal â chreu cyfleoedd gwyrdd eraill. Mae ein hymrwymiadau o ran bioamrywiaeth yn golygu bod gennym gynlluniau gweithredu bioamrywiaeth yn lleol ledled Cymru. Mae’n bwysig dweud nad yw pob rhywogaeth o adar yn dirywio. Mae rhai poblogaethau o

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the coal tit and goldcrest, while others, such as those of the nuthatch and song thrush, are increasing. We are grateful for the expert work of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and others, which ensure that we can monitor this and look to repair where appropriate. Over the last two years, we have been collecting information on sites that have higher biodiversity value and are sites of interest for nature conservation, for example, and we are keen to ensure that more sites are put forward to be designated as sites of interest for nature conservation, so that the local biodiversity commitment is really visible for local populations.

adar gwyllt yn dirywio, er enghraifft, coch y berllan, y titw penddu a’r dryw melyn cribog, ond mae eraill, megis cnocell y cnau a’r fronfraith, ar gynnydd. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar am waith arbenigol y Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Gwarchod Adar ac eraill, sy’n sicrhau y gallwn fonitro hyn ac edrych ar gamau adfer pan fydd hynny’n briodol. Dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf yr ydym wedi bod yn casglu gwybodaeth am safleoedd sydd â mwy o werth bioamrywiaeth ac sy’n safleoedd o ddiddordeb cadwraeth natur, er enghraifft. Ac yr ydym yn awyddus i sicrhau bod rhagor o safleoedd yn cael eu cyflwyno i’w dynodi’n safleoedd o ddiddordeb ar gyfer cadwraeth natur, er mwyn i’r boblogaeth leol allu gweld yr ymrwymiad lleol i fioamrywiaeth yn glir.

Water Quality Ansawdd Dŵr

Q6 Sandy Mewies: What arrangements does the Welsh Assembly Government have to monitor water quality? OAQ(3)0839(ESH)

C6 Sandy Mewies: Pa drefniadau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i fonitro ansawdd dŵr? OAQ(3)0839(ESH)

Jane Davidson: As outlined in the strategic policy position statement on water, clean, reliable drinking water is one of my top priorities. The Drinking Water Inspectorate monitors and reports on public drinking water quality. I am also committed to maintaining good environmental water quality throughout Wales.

Jane Davidson: Fel yr amlinellwyd yn y datganiad sefyllfa ar y polisi strategol ar ddŵr, dŵr yfed glân a dibynadwy yw un o’m prif flaenoriaethau. Mae’r Arolygiaeth Dŵr Yfed yn monitro ac yn adrodd ar ansawdd dŵr yfed cyhoeddus. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ymrwymo i gynnal ansawdd dŵr amgylcheddol da ledled Cymru.

Sandy Mewies: I know that you are aware of the recent contamination at the Alwen water treatment works, which affected 70,000 people, many of whom were my constituents. Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water is to be congratulated on the fact that its procedures worked and that the contamination was identified quickly and dealt with safely. However, I have some concerns about the process of notifying consumers, as not all the affected areas were listed in the information that was available through the media. People from those areas were advised to look at the website, which ignores, as is so often the case, the fact that lots of people do not have access to a computer. I know of several constituents who were unaware of the problem until the end of that week. The problem concerned coliform bacteria, which are not among the most serious, but it could have been something much more serious.

Sandy Mewies: Gwn eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r achos yn ddiweddar o halogi yng ngwaith trin dŵr Alwen, a effeithiodd ar 70,000 o bobl, a nifer ohonynt yn etholwyr imi. Rhaid llongyfarch Dŵr Cymru fod ei weithdrefnau wedi gweithio a bod yr halogiad wedi’i ddarganfod yn gyflym ac y deliwyd ag ef yn ddiogel. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf rai pryderon ynghylch y broses o roi gwybod i gwsmeriaid, gan nad oedd yr holl ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt wedi cael eu rhestru yn yr wybodaeth a oedd ar gael drwy’r cyfryngau. Dywedwyd wrth bobl o’r ardaloedd hynny am edrych ar y wefan, sy’n anwybyddu, fel y gwelir yn aml, y ffaith nad oes gan nifer o bobl gyfrifiadur i’w ddefnyddio. Gwn am nifer o etholwyr nad oeddent yn gwybod am y broblem tan ddiwedd yr wythnos honno. Yr oedd y broblem yn ymwneud â bacteria colifform, nad ydynt ymysg y mwyaf difrifol, ond

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Can you assure me that you will discuss these issues with Welsh Water to ensure that, should an incident occur again, consumers will be notified as efficiently and as speedily as possible?

gallasai fod yn rhywbeth mwy difrifol o lawer. A allwch fy sicrhau y byddwch yn trafod y materion hyn gyda Dŵr Cymru i sicrhau y caiff defnyddwyr wybod mor effeithlon ac mor gyflym â phosibl os cwyd digwyddiad o’r fath eto?

Jane Davidson: Customers were informed through local and national media, leaflet and letter drops, loudhailer announcements and public notices in places such as libraries, schools and so on. During my last question session, I gave an undertaking that we would make the information from Dŵr Cymru about the way in which it dealt with such incidents available to Assembly Members so that you could see what you could expect to happen in your local area. However, you raise an important issue about the people who could still be outside those communication mechanisms. I will ask the Drinking Water Inspectorate, which is carrying out a separate monitoring exercise on what happened, to see whether Dŵr Cymru has a case to answer, and to consider this as part of its investigation into the incident.

Jane Davidson: Cafodd cwsmeriaid wybod drwy’r cyfryngau lleol a chenedlaethol a thrwy bostio taflenni a llythyrau, drwy gyhoeddiadau dros uchelseinyddion a thrwy osod hysbysiadau cyhoeddus mewn mannau megis llyfrgelloedd, ysgolion, ac yn y blaen. Yn ystod fy sesiwn gwestiynau ddiwethaf, addewais y byddem yn darparu i Aelodau’r Cynulliad y wybodaeth gan Dŵr Cymru am y ffordd y deliodd â digwyddiadau o’r fath, er mwyn ichi allu gweld beth y gallech ddisgwyl ei weld yn digwydd yn eich ardal leol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn codi mater pwysig ynghylch y bobl a allai fod y tu allan i’r mecanweithiau cyfathrebu hynny. Gofynnaf i’r Arolygiaeth Dŵr Yfed, sy’n cynnal ymarfer monitro ar wahân ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd, i weld a oes gan Dŵr Cymru achos i’w ateb, ac i ystyried hyn fel rhan o’i hymchwiliad i’r digwyddiad.

Darren Millar: I know that you take an interest in ensuring that people in Wales have high-quality drinking water. You will probably be aware that the Alwen water treatment works is in my constituency and that a large part of my constituency was also affected. I share the concerns about the notification of residents and customers across my constituency. I also have concerns about the paltry £10 that Welsh Water has offered to customers in compensation for the problem. Consumers have had to put up with having to boil their water for a week, resulting in significant energy costs and inconvenience. Many of those customers have been businesses. Public houses, for example, need to have cold water quickly and have not been able to offer certain drinks as a result. Would you agree that £10 is insufficient as compensation and that there ought to be a scale of compensation available to customers in the future when there are problems with the quality of drinking water? Would you consider regulation as a means of achieving that as opposed to a voluntary code?

Darren Millar: Gwn fod gennych ddiddordeb sicrhau bod gan bobl Cymru ddŵr yfed o safon uchel. Mae’n debyg eich bod yn gwybod bod gwaith trin dŵr Alwen yn fy etholaeth i ac yr effeithiwyd ar ran fawr o’m hetholaeth i hefyd. Yr wyf fi hefyd yn pryderu ynglŷn â rhoi gwybod i drigolion a chwsmeriaid ar draws fy etholaeth. Yr wyf yn pryderu hefyd am y £10 pitw y mae Dŵr Cymru wedi’i gynnig i gwsmeriaid fel iawndal am y broblem. Mae defnyddwyr wedi gorfod goddef berwi eu dŵr am wythnos, gan arwain at gostau ynni sylweddol ac anhwylustod. Busnesau oedd nifer o’r cwsmeriaid hynny. Mae ar dafarndai, er enghraifft, angen dŵr oer yn gyflym ac nid ydynt wedi gallu cynnig rhai diodydd o’r herwydd. A fyddech yn cytuno bod £10 yn annigonol fel iawndal ac y dylai fod graddfa iawndal ar gael i gwsmeriaid yn y dyfodol pan fydd problemau gydag ansawdd dŵr yfed? A fyddech yn ystyried rheoliad fel ffordd i sicrhau hynny, yn hytrach na chod gwirfoddol?

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Jane Davidson: If you have concerns about the level of compensation, you will need to make representations—you probably have done—directly to Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water. In my discussions with Ofwat, the Water Services Regulation Authority, I would be happy to look at whether some kind of standardised practice could be introduced for water companies. It is much easier if there is clear customer expectation in this context, which, of course, this may be part of at the moment.

Jane Davidson: Os oes gennych bryderon ynghylch lefel yr iawndal, bydd angen ichi gyflwyno sylwadau—mae’n debyg eich bod eisoes wedi gwneud hynny—yn uniongyrchol i Dŵr Cymru. Yn fy nhrafodaethau gyda’r Swyddfa Gwasanaethau Dŵr, yr Awdurdod Rheoleiddio Gwasanaethau Dŵr, byddwn yn fodlon edrych i weld a ellid cyflwyno rhyw fath o arfer safonol ar gyfer cwmnïau dŵr. Mae’n haws o lawer os oes disgwyliad clir gan gwsmeriaid yn y cyd-destun hwn, y gallai hwn fod yn rhan ohono ar hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs.

2.50 p.m.

Janet Ryder: I echo those concerns. We are very lucky that the outbreak was not serious and did not result in illness. As a result, it may be worth looking at the incident as an exercise to assess Dŵr Cymru’s ability to respond in such circumstances.

Janet Ryder: Yr wyf yn ategu’r pryderon hynny. Yr ydym yn hynod ffodus nad oedd hwn yn achos difrifol ac nad arweiniodd at salwch. O ganlyniad, efallai ei bod yn werth edrych ar y digwyddiad fel ymarfer i asesu gallu Dŵr Cymru i ymateb mewn amgylchiadau o’r fath.

The point about communication in particular was brought to my attention. Given the geography of the area, many people in the towns do not access Welsh media—they do not watch Welsh television or read Welsh newspapers—and so until the notice landed on the doorstep a considerable number of days later, they had no way of knowing that something was wrong. That needs to be looked at. Also, the message coming from the loudhailer vans that went around was undecipherable. Nobody could hear the message clearly; everybody knew by then what the message from the loudhailer vans was, but had any different information been announced, the sound was so muffled that it would have been impossible to tell. When you look at this matter, Minister, I would like you to get Dŵr Cymru to introduce a proper strategy on how it will reach the more rural and isolated communities and make future campaigns more prominent so that people can get the information clearly.

Tynnwyd fy sylw’n benodol at y pwynt ynghylch cyfathrebu. O ystyried daearyddiaeth yr ardal, mae llawer o bobl yn y trefi nad ydynt yn defnyddio cyfryngau Cymru—nid ydynt yn gwylio teledu Cymreig nac yn darllen papurau newydd Cymreig—ac felly nid oedd modd iddynt wybod bod dim o’i le nes i’r hysbysiad lanio ar garreg eu drws rai dyddiau wedyn. Mae angen edrych ar hynny. Hefyd, nid oedd modd deall y neges a oedd yn dod o’r faniau uchelseinyddion. Ni allai neb glywed y neges yn glir; yr oedd pawb yn gwybod erbyn hynny beth oedd y neges o’r faniau uchelseinyddion, ond petai unrhyw wybodaeth arall wedi ei chyhoeddi, yr oedd y sain mor aneglur fel na fyddid wedi gallu gwybod. Pan fyddwch yn edrych ar y mater hwn, Weinidog, hoffwn ichi ofyn i Ddŵr Cymru gyflwyno strategaeth briodol ynghylch y ffordd y bydd yn cyrraedd y cymunedau mwy gwledig ac anghysbell, a sicrhau bod ymgyrchoedd yn y dyfodol yn fwy amlwg er mwyn i bobl gael yr wybodaeth yn glir.

Jane Davidson: The Drinking Water Inspectorate, in its investigation of the incident, will be looking at communication issues, which is why, in response to Sandy Mewies, I said that it is a matter that I am

Jane Davidson: Yn ystod ei hymchwiliad bydd yr Arolygiaeth Dŵr Yfed yn edrych ar faterion sy’n ymwneud â chyfathrebu, a dyna pam, i ateb Sandy Mewies, y dywedais fod hwn yn fater yr wyf yn fodlon mynd ar ei

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happy to take up with the inspectorate. drywydd gyda’r arolygiaeth.

The UK Budget Cyllideb y DU

Q7 Eleanor Burnham: What assessment has the Minister made of the environment portfolio commitments since the recent UK budget announcement? OAQ(3)0840(ESH)

C7 Eleanor Burnham: Pa asesiad y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud o ymrwymiadau portffolio’r amgylchedd yn dilyn cyhoeddi cyllideb y DU yn ddiweddar? OAQ(3)0840(ESH)

Jane Davidson: The Chancellor’s budget made a number of announcements relevant to my portfolio, such as new capital funding for activities to promote energy efficiency. I will be considering with Cabinet colleagues how the available resources will be used to promote my own priorities, as well as the wider ‘One Wales’ priorities.

Jane Davidson: Gwnaeth y Canghellor nifer o gyhoeddiadau yn ei gyllideb sy’n berthnasol i’m portffolio i, megis arian cyfalaf newydd ar gyfer gweithgareddau i hyrwyddo effeithlonrwydd ynni. Byddaf yn ystyried gyda’m cyd-Weinidogion yn y Cabinet sut y caiff yr adnoddau sydd ar gael eu defnyddio i hyrwyddo fy mlaenoriaethau i yn ogystal â blaenoriaethau ehangach ‘Cymru’n Un’.

Eleanor Burnham: My understanding is that over £1.4 billion in additional targeted support is being made available to the low-carbon sector from the 2009 UK budget. What will you be doing to ensure that the moneys due to Wales from this figure will be spent on the low-carbon sector and just as importantly, if not more so, what will you do to ensure that the money helps to ensure green manufacturing jobs in Wales?

Eleanor Burnham: Caf ar ddeall fod dros £1.4 biliwn o gymorth ychwanegol wedi’i dargedu yn cael ei ddarparu i’r sector carbon isel o gyllideb 2009 y DU. Beth y byddwch yn ei wneud i sicrhau y bydd yr arian a ddylai ddod i Gymru o’r ffigur hwn yn cael ei wario ar y sector carbon isel, a’r hyn sydd lawn mor bwysig, os nad yn bwysicach, beth y byddwch yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod yr arian yn helpu sicrhau swyddi gweithgynhyrchu gwyrdd yng Nghymru?

Jane Davidson: We have a strong green jobs strategy, which is about securing green manufacturing here. We have our national energy and efficiency savings plan out to consultation at the moment, and its aim is to bring down emissions and energy costs for companies and individuals and to tackle fuel poverty.

Jane Davidson: Mae gennym strategaeth gref ar swyddi gwyrdd, sy’n ymwneud â diogelu gweithgynhyrchu gwyrdd yma. Ymgynghorir ar ein cynllun cenedlaethol ar gyfer effeithlonrwydd ac arbedion ynni ar hyn o bryd, a’i nod yw gostwng allyriadau a chostau ynni i gwmnïau ac unigolion a mynd i’r afael â thlodi tanwydd.

Much of the £1.4 billion announced in the Chancellor’s budget was included in a set of measures that support industry and others that will be made available across the whole of the United Kingdom. In terms of the consequential funding for Wales from the budget, the Assembly Government will go through its normal process of considering what are the greatest priorities for using the additional funding available to the Assembly budget.

Yr oedd llawer o’r £1.4 biliwn a gyhoeddwyd yng nghyllideb y Canghellor wedi’i gynnwys mewn cyfres o fesurau sy’n cefnogi diwydiant, ac eraill a fydd ar gael ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. O ran y cyllid canlyniadol i Gymru o’r gyllideb, bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn mynd drwy ei phroses arferol ac yn ystyried beth yw’r prif flaenoriaethau ar gyfer defnyddio’r cyllid ychwanegol sydd ar gael i gyllideb y Cynulliad.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Pan gewch gyfle i Rhodri Glyn Thomas: When you have an

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ddarllen adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cynaliadwyedd ar leihau allyriadau carbon wrth gynhyrchu ynni, gwelwch fod pwyslais ar greu swyddi gwyrdd. A fyddech yn cytuno nad ydym, yn y 10 mlynedd mae’r Cynulliad wedi bod mewn bodolaeth, wedi gwneud digon i drosglwyddo cynhyrchu ynni i ynni adnewyddadwy nac i greu ychwaith swyddi gwyrdd?

opportunity to read the Sustainability Committee report on reducing carbon emissions in energy production, you will see there is an emphasis on creating green jobs. Would you agree that, in the 10 years of the Assembly’s existence, we have not done enough to switch energy production to recyclables and have not done enough to create green jobs?

Jane Davidson: No, I would not. The Assembly was well ahead of the agenda in designating technical advice note 8, which has now led to a huge amount of activity in the context of the planning system. The Assembly has been imaginative in, and committed to, bringing new investment to Wales. All Assembly Members would like to see much more of that investment targeted towards ensuring that firms can be resilient with regard to the environmental pressures and carbon reduction pressures on them, and so that we can use new opportunities for the renewable energy industry and others. We maintain our commitment to taking such approaches.

Jane Davidson: Na, fyddwn i ddim. Yr oedd y Cynulliad ymhell o flaen yr agenda wrth ddynodi nodyn cyngor technegol 8, sydd erbyn hyn wedi arwain at lawer iawn o weithgarwch yng nghyd-destun y system gynllunio. Mae’r Cynlluniad wedi arloesi ac wedi ymrwymo i ddod â buddsoddiad newydd i Gymru. Hoffai pob Aelod Cynulliad weld llawer mwy o’r buddsoddiad hwnnw’n cael ei dargedu i sicrhau bod cwmnïau’n gallu bod yn wydn o ran y pwysau amgylcheddol a’r pwysau lleihau carbon arnynt, ac er mwyn inni allu defnyddio cyfleoedd newydd ar gyfer y diwydiant ynni adnewyddadwy ac eraill. Yr ydym yn cadw at ein hymrwymiad i ddefnyddio dulliau gweithredu o’r fath.

Alun Cairns: Minister, Eleanor Burnham’s original question related to the impact and the influence that the Chancellor’s budget will have on the Welsh Assembly Government in general, but my question relates specifically to your portfolio. There will clearly have to be cuts, and those cuts may be even more severe than was originally envisaged, given the governor of the Bank of England’s statement earlier today. Therefore, is it not time to make an honest statement and to say what will and what will not come under pressure, so that we can have at least have a debate around those issues? Whoever is in Government, money will be exceptionally tight because of the mess that the UK Government has got us into. Do you not think that now is the time to have an honest debate so that we are at least frank about what can and cannot be achieved when it comes to spending money?

Alun Cairns: Weinidog, yr oedd cwestiwn gwreiddiol Eleanor Burnham yn ymwneud ag effaith a dylanwad cyllideb y Canghellor ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gyffredinol, ond mae fy nghwestiwn i yn ymwneud yn benodol â’ch portffolio chi. Yn amlwg bydd yn rhaid cael toriadau, ac efallai y bydd y toriadau hynny’n fwy difrifol nag a ragwelwyd yn wreiddiol, o ystyried datganiad llywodraethwr Banc Lloegr yn gynharach heddiw. Felly, onid yw’n hen bryd rhoi datganiad gonest heddiw a dweud yr hyn a fydd dan bwysau a’r hyn na fydd dan bwysau, er mwyn inni o leiaf allu cael dadl am y materion hynny? Pwy bynnag fydd mewn Llywodraeth, bydd arian yn arbennig o dynn oherwydd y llanastr y mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi ein harwain iddi. Oni chredwch ei bod yn hen bryd inni gael dadl onest er mwyn inni o leiaf fod yn agored am yr hyn y gellir ei gyflawni a’r hyn na ellir ei gyflawni pan ddaw i wario arian?

Jane Davidson: One of the greatest innovations in the context of the establishment of the Assembly is that we make our budgets in public, and I continue to

Jane Davidson: Un o’r pethau newydd gorau yng nghyd-destun sefydlu’r Cynulliad yw ein bod yn gwneud ein cyllidebau yng ngŵydd y cyhoedd, ac yr wyf yn dal i gefnogi’r broses

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support that process. In due course, we will lay down the draft budget for the next financial year and you and others will have the chance to comment on it.

honno. Maes o law, byddwn yn cyflwyno’r gyllideb ddrafft am y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf a chewch chi ac eraill gyfle i gyflwyno sylwadau yn ei chylch.

Datganiad: Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ffliw MochStatement: Update on Swine Influenza

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I want to update Members on the swine flu outbreak and how preparations in Wales are proceeding. The World Health Organization’s pandemic flu alert level remains at phase 5, which reflects the fact that there is widespread human-to-human transmission and that a pandemic may be imminent. It remains the case that the outbreak seems to have caused a less severe illness outside of Mexico, but there are now more reported cases in the United States than in Mexico.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Mae arnaf eisiau rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am yr achosion o’r ffliw moch a sut y mae paratoadau yng Nghymru’n mynd rhagddynt. Mae lefel y rhybudd ffliw pandemig gan Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd yn dal ar lefel 5, sy’n adlewyrchu’r ffaith fod y ffliw yn dal i gael ei drosglwyddo rhwng unigolion ar raddfa eang ac y gallai pandemig fod ar ddigwydd. Mae’n wir o hyd fod yr achosion wedi achosi salwch llai difrifol y tu allan i Fecsico, ond yn awr mae mwy o achosion y gwyddys amdanynt yn yr Unol Daleithiau nag ym Mecsico.

The latest indications are that more than 5,000 cases of influenza—including 61 deaths—have been reported in 30 countries worldwide. As of 5 p.m. yesterday, there were 68 confirmed cases in the UK, which is an increase from the 28 cases that I reported on last week. There are still no confirmed cases in Wales. The situation is continuously changing. In Wales, 71 cases have been ruled out, leaving nine still under investigation. All these cases are related to travel in Mexico and the USA and all of the patients are displaying, or have displayed, mild symptoms. I reiterate that this remains a serious situation and that we will soon see cases in Wales, as they have been identified across English regions and in Scotland. Even with the best available scientific advice at our disposal, it is impossible to predict how the virus might develop over the coming months.

Dengys yr arwyddion diweddaraf fod dros 5,000 o achosion o’r ffliw—gan gynnwys 61 marwolaeth—wedi eu cofnodi mewn 30 o wledydd ym mhedwar ban byd. Am 5 p.m. ddoe, yr oedd 68 o achosion wedi eu cadarnhau yn y DU, sy’n gynnydd o’r 28 o achosion yr adroddais arnynt yr wythnos diwethaf. Nid oes dim achosion wedi’u cadarnhau yng Nghymru. Mae’r sefyllfa’n newid yn gyson. Yng Nghymru, mae 71 o achosion wedi eu diystyru, sy’n golygu yr ymchwilir i naw achos o hyd. Mae’r holl achosion hyn yn ymwneud â theithio ym Mecsico ac yn UDA, ac mae’r holl gleifion yn arddangos, neu wedi dangos, symptomau ysgafn. Yr wyf yn ailadrodd bod hon yn dal yn sefyllfa ddifrifol ac y byddwn yn gweld achosion yng Nghymru cyn hir, fel y gwelwyd ar draws rhanbarthau Lloegr ac yn yr Alban. Hyd yn oed gyda’r cyngor gwyddonol gorau sydd gennym, mae’n amhosibl rhagweld sut y gall y firws ddatblygu dros y misoedd nesaf.

The current UK approach is still containment, using school closures when appropriate and anti-viral drugs for contacts of cases in order to slow or minimise spread. However, we remain vigilant and are prepared for a further phase in which containment is no longer

Rheoli yw dull gweithredu’r DU o hyd, gan gau ysgolion pan fydd hynny’n briodol a rhoi chyffuriau gwrthfeirws i’r rheiny sydd wedi bod mewn cysylltiad ag achosion er mwyn arafu neu leihau’r lledaeniad. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn dal yn wyliadwrus ac yn barod ar

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possible. We would then move into a mitigation strategy. That is most likely to happen when there is sustained community transmission, with cases in people with no link with travel to Mexico or the USA. At that point, the four countries would need to take a view on how best to use our stock of anti-viral drugs to treat the illness. Such a measure would only be considered if there was clear evidence of sustained transmission within communities and on the advice of the scientific advisory group on emergencies—SAGE, appropriately—the Health Protection Agency and the National Public Health Service.

gyfer cam pellach pan na fydd rheoli yn bosibl mwyach. Byddem wedyn yn symud i strategaeth liniaru. Mae hynny’n fwyaf tebygol o ddigwydd pan fydd trosglwyddo parhaus mewn cymunedau, gydag achosion ymhlith pobl heb ddim cysylltiad â theithio i Fecsico nac i UDA. Bryd hynny byddai angen i’r pedair gwlad benderfynu’r ffordd orau i ddefnyddio ein stoc o gyffuriau gwrthfeirws i drin y salwch. Dim ond petai tystiolaeth glir o drosglwyddo parhaus mewn cymunedau y byddai mesur o’r fath yn cael ei ystyried, ac ar sail cyngor gan y grŵp cynghori gwyddonol ar argyfyngau—SAGE, yn briodol—yr Asiantaeth Diogelu Iechyd a’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cenedlaethol.

I informed Members last week that we are increasing our stockpiles of anti-viral drugs, with the aim of covering 80 per cent of the population, and of antibiotics, to provide courses of treatment for 30 per cent of the population. Considerable progress has been made within the NHS to identify suitable collection points from where anti-viral drugs could be collected on behalf of patients with flu. To ensure that we are able to distribute anti-viral drugs effectively, we are working to get the national flu service up and ready to run when needed.

Dywedais wrth Aelodau’r wythnos diwethaf ein bod yn cynyddu ein cyflenwadau o gyffuriau gwrthfeirws, gyda’r nod o gael digon ar gyfer 80 y cant o’r boblogaeth, a gwrthfiotigau a fyddai’n ddigon i drin 30 y cant o’r boblogaeth. Mae cynnydd sylweddol wedi ei wneud yn y GIG i nodi mannau casglu addas lle gellid casglu’r cyffuriau gwrthfeirws ar ran cleifion sydd â’r ffliw. Er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gallu dosbarthu cyffuriau gwrthfeirws yn effeithiol, yr ydym yn gweithio i sefydlu’r gwasanaeth ffliw cenedlaethol er mwyn iddo fod yn barod pa fydd angen.

Last week, Darren Millar asked me about the expiry dates for anti-viral stock in Wales. The expiry dates for Tamiflu—oseltamivir—and Relenza range from May 2010 to December 2013. The important news is that the European regulatory authorities have extended the expiry dates of the anti-viral drugs by two years to ensure that none are thrown away when they may be needed in a pandemic. Statutory instruments were also laid before Parliament last week to make the necessary changes to support interim arrangements so that people can access anti-viral drugs quickly should they require them.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, gofynnodd Darren Millar imi am y dyddiadau pan ddaw’r stoc gwrthfeirwsol i ben yng Nghymru. Mae dyddiadau dod i ben ar gyfer Tamiflu—oseltamivir—a’r gyfres Relenza yn amrywio o fis Mai 2010 i fis Rhagfyr 2013. Y newyddion pwysig yw bod yr awdurdodau rheoleiddio Ewropeaidd wedi ymestyn y dyddiadau dod i ben ar gyfer cyffuriau gwrthfeirws ddwy flynedd i sicrhau na fydd dim yn cael ei daflu ar adeg pan allai fod eu hangen arnom yn ystod pandemig. Cyflwynwyd offerynnau statudol gerbron y Senedd yr wythnos diwethaf hefyd i wneud y newidiadau angenrheidiol i gefnogi trefniadau dros dro er mwyn i bobl allu cael cyffuriau gwrthfeirws yn gyflym os bydd eu hangen arnynt.

3.00 p.m.

An additional 227 million surgical face masks and 34 million respirators have been

Archebwyd 227 miliwn o fygydau wyneb llawfeddygol ychwanegol a 34 miliwn o

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ordered on a UK basis, which, if used properly, will prevent transmission to NHS staff in close and frequent contact with patients. We have agreed across the four countries to accelerate procurement to ensure that our front-line health and social care staff are protected during a pandemic.

anadlyddion ar gyfer y DU, ac o’u defnyddio’n iawn byddant yn atal trosglwyddo’r haint i staff y GIG sydd mewn cysylltiad agos yn aml â chleifion. Mae’r pedair gwlad wedi cytuno i gyflymu’r gwaith o’u caffael er mwyn sicrhau diogelu ein staff iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol rheng flaen yn ystod pandemig.

UK agreements are in place with manufacturers to secure supplies of vaccines for a pandemic as soon as they are developed and produced, but this is likely to take a few months. An important development is that British scientists have identified the genetic fingerprint of the virus’s European strain, which is a crucial step in the production of a vaccine. We will be looking to procure an H1N1 vaccine as soon as one becomes available. The normal seasonal flu vaccine will continue to be produced as it will still be useful for protecting high-risk people from other common circulating viruses.

Mae’r DU wedi sefydlu cytundebau gyda gwneuthurwyr i sicrhau bod cyflenwadau o frechlynnau ar gyfer pandemig cyn gynted ag y cânt eu datblygu a’u cynhyrchu, ond mae hyn yn debygol o gymryd rhai misoedd. Un datblygiad pwysig yw bod gwyddonwyr ym Mhrydain wedi darganfod ôl bys genetig y math Ewropeaidd o’r feirws, sy’n gam hollbwysig wrth gynhyrchu brechlyn. Bwriadwn brynu brechlyn H1N1 cyn gynted ag y bydd un ar gael. Bydd y brechlyn ffliw tymhorol arferol yn dal i gael ei gynhyrchu oherwydd bydd yn ddefnyddiol i ddiogelu pobl sydd mewn risg uchel rhag cael feirysau cyffredin eraill sydd o gwmpas.

It remains vital that the public be kept informed of developments and particularly of the steps that they can take to protect themselves and family members. A mass public health campaign is now well under way and many of you will have received the swine flu leaflet that is being delivered to all households in Wales this week. A further wave of advertising, including bilingual versions of these adverts, has appeared in the Welsh media, and we are continuing to refine our communications messages to ensure that the public receives the most appropriate and timely information.

Mae’n hanfodol bwysig o hyd i’r cyhoedd gael gwybod am ddatblygiadau, ac yn arbennig y camau y gallant eu cymryd i’w diogelu eu hunain a’u teuluoedd. Mae ymgyrch iechyd cyhoeddus fawr yn mynd rhagddi ers tro bellach, a bydd nifer ohonoch wedi cael y daflen ffliw moch sy’n cael ei rhoi drwy ddrws pob tŷ yng Nghymru yr wythnos hon. Mae ton arall o hysbysebion, gan gynnwys fersiwn ddwyieithog o’r hysbysebion hyn, wedi ymddangos yn y cyfryngau yng Nghymru, ac yr ydym yn mynd ati’n barhaus i loywi ein negeseuon cyfathrebu i sicrhau bod y cyhoedd yn cael yr wybodaeth fwyaf priodol ac amserol.

I assure Members that I continue to work closely with my counterparts in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure a consistent approach across the UK. Collaboration between the four countries remains excellent. We are doing everything that we can to prepare for a pandemic situation. I will continue to report weekly to the Assembly on these matters and will keep Members informed if there are significant changes to the current situation.

Yr wyf yn sicrhau Aelodau fy mod yn dal i weithio’n agos gyda fy nghyd-Weinidogion yn Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon i sicrhau ymdrin â’r mater mewn modd cyson ar draws y DU. Mae’r cydweithrediad rhwng y pedair gwlad yn parhau’n ardderchog. Yr ydym yn gwneud popeth a allwn i baratoi ar gyfer pandemig. Byddaf yn dal i adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad bob wythnos am y materion hyn, a byddaf yn sicrhau bod Aelodau’n cael gwybod am unrhyw newidiadau pwysig yn y sefyllfa bresennol.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for the Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch am y

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statement, Minister, and thank you once again for the briefing that you afforded health spokespeople yesterday in your office. Your statement touches on various issues that have not been mentioned previously. It is a sign of the seriousness with which you, your officials, and the whole of the Government are taking this—to your credit. Swine flu may have been knocked off the headlines at the moment, but all the modelling indicates that, regrettably, at some point we will see a large increase in the number of cases in Wales, the United Kingdom, and across the world.

datganiad, Weinidog, a diolch ichi unwaith eto am y sesiwn briffio a roesoch i lefarwyr iechyd yn eich swyddfa ddoe. Mae eich datganiad yn cyffwrdd â nifer o faterion na chawsant eu crybwyll cyn hyn. Mae’n dangos mor ddifrifol yr ydych chi, eich swyddogion, a’r Llywodraeth i gyd yn ystyried hyn—a phob clod ichi am hynny. Efallai nad yw’r ffliw moch yn y penawdau ar hyn o bryd, ond mae’r holl fodelu yn awgrymu ein bod, yn anffodus, rywbryd yn debygol o weld cynnydd mawr yn nifer yr achosion yng Nghymru, yn y Deyrnas Unedig ac ar draws y byd.

In the first part of the statement, you talked about ‘sustained community transmission’. I would be grateful if you would indicate what that terminology means. What level of transmission in the wider community would be termed a ‘sustained’ transmission, and what implications would it have for accelerating any pandemic? You also talked about getting the national flu service up and running when needed. Could you indicate what exactly it will do, and what kind of increased capacity it will provide in dealing with swine flu?

Yn rhan gyntaf y datganiad, yr ydych yn sôn am ‘drosglwyddo parhaus mewn cymunedau’. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar petaech yn egluro beth yw ystyr y derminoleg honno. Pa lefel o drosglwyddo yn y gymuned ehangach a fyddai’n cael ei alw’n drosglwyddo ‘parhaus’, a beth fyddai goblygiadau hynny o ran cyflymu unrhyw bandemig? Yr ydych hefyd yn sôn am roi’r gwasanaeth ffliw cenedlaethol ar waith pan fydd angen. A allech chi ddweud beth yn union y bydd hwnnw’n ei wneud, a pha fath o gapasiti ychwanegol a grëir ganddo o ran delio â’r ffliw moch?

You mentioned the ordering of an additional 227 million surgical face masks and 34 million respirators. What account has been taken of the increased need for this apparatus in the community? On several occasions I have raised the possibility of a ‘flu buddy’ scheme, whereby people can avoid the normal point of contact for health services to contain the virus and limit its transmission. What preparations have there been to ensure that people who act as facilitators within the community, although they would not be considered part of the regular NHS staff, can access stocks? Will you be making stocks available in that way?

Soniech am archebu 227 miliwn o fygydau wyneb llawfeddygol ychwanegol a 34 miliwn o anadlyddion. Pa ystyriaeth a roddwyd i’r cynnydd yn yr angen am gyfarpar o’r fath yn y gymuned? Yr wyf wedi crybwyll droeon bosibilrwydd creu cynllun ‘cyfaill ffliw’ a fyddai’n galluogi pobl i osgoi’r man cyswllt arferol ar gyfer y gwasanaethau iechyd a thrwy hynny reoli’r feirws a chyfyngu ei drosglwyddo. Pa drefniadau sydd wedi bod i sicrhau bod pobl sy’n gweithredu fel hwyluswyr yn y gymuned, er na fyddent yn cael eu hystyried yn rhan o staff rheolaidd y GIG, yn gallu cael cyflenwadau? A fydd cyflenwadau ar gael felly?

You also mentioned vaccines, and UK agreements are in place with manufacturers to secure supplies. Other Members would be grateful, I am sure—and I certainly would be—if you could give us a taste of the kind of agreements that have been entered into with suppliers? Are they along the lines of previous agreements for stockpiling vaccines and medicines, so that Wales will get a

Soniech hefyd am frechlynnau, a bod y DU wedi sefydlu cytundebau gyda gwneuthurwyr i sicrhau cyflenwadau. Byddai Aelodau eraill yn ddiolchgar, yr wyf yn siŵr—ac yn sicr, byddwn i—petaech yn gallu rhoi awgrym o’r math o gytundebau sydd wedi eu gwneud â chyflenwyr? A ydynt yn debyg i gytundebau blaenorol, sef cadw cyflenwadau mawr o frechlynnau a meddyginiaethau wrth gefn, er

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proportional share, quid pro quo, based on population? Is there a monetary angle to it? How much vaccine will you purchase? What sort of stock will be available for Wales? Do those agreements state what we could expect to receive in Wales? Once a vaccine becomes available—and I speak from my agricultural experience—a host of people will put their hands up for it. How will the people of Wales fit into the queue?

mwyn sicrhau bod Cymru’n cael cyfran deg, quid pro quo, ar sail y boblogaeth? A oes elfen ariannol yn hyn? Faint o frechlynnau y byddwch yn eu prynu? Pa fath o gyflenwad fydd ar gael i Gymru? A yw’r cytundebau hynny’n nodi’r hyn y gallem ddisgwyl ei gael yng Nghymru? Pan fydd brechlyn ar gael —ac yr wyf yn dweud hyn ar sail fy mhrofiad ym maes amaeth—bydd llu o bobl yn gofyn amdano. Ble fydd pobl Cymru yn y ciw?

Yesterday, at the briefing, I asked what impact a full-blown pandemic outbreak would have on public services in Wales and the United Kingdom, given the increased demand on the health service, how it would displace routine operations, such as follow-up operations, and how it would affect health professionals as they deal with their everyday work. Do you know whether health professionals have undertaken any modelling to see to what level the health service and other public services would be affected should the second spike come in the autumn, when the flu season normally occurs in the northern hemisphere? Thank you for your statement, Minister.

Ddoe, yn y sesiwn briffio, gofynnais pa effaith a gâi pandemig llawn ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac yn y Deyrnas Unedig, o gofio’r cynnydd yn y galw ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, sut y byddai’n cymryd lle llawdriniaethau arferol, megis llawdriniaethau dilynol, a sut y byddai’n effeithio ar weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol wrth iddynt ddelio â’u gwaith bob dydd. A wyddoch a yw gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol wedi ymgymryd ag unrhyw fodelu i weld i ba raddau yr effeithid ar y gwasanaeth iechyd a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill pe digwyddai cynnydd sydyn arall yn yr hydref, sef yr adeg pan fydd y ffliw yn taro fel rheol yn hemisffer y gogledd? Diolch ichi am eich datganiad, Weinidog.

Edwina Hart: To deal with some of those issues, I do not think that we need to jump too far ahead of ourselves in the discussions on what is likely to happen, because the picture is changing daily. As you will be aware from news reports, we receive information from Mexico one day but it changes the next. We now have information from the United States and we have to be careful with the information that we have. Even though we want the public to be aware of the possibilities and of what they should do, we do not want to scaremonger, because we are very well prepared.

Edwina Hart: I fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r materion hynny, ni chredaf fod angen inni fynd ar drywydd trafodaethau am yr hyn sy’n debygol o ddigwydd yn rhy bell ymlaen llaw gan fod y darlun yn newid bob dydd. Fel y gwyddoch o’r adroddiadau yn y newyddion, byddwn yn cael gwybodaeth o Fecsico un diwrnod, ond erbyn y diwrnod wedyn bydd pethau wedi newid. Erbyn hyn yr ydym yn cael gwybodaeth o’r Unol Daleithiau, a rhaid inni fod yn ofalus gyda’r wybodaeth sydd gennym. Er bod arnom eisiau i’r cyhoedd fod yn ymwybodol o’r posibiliadau a’r hyn y dylent ei wneud, nid ydym am godi ofn yn ddiangen, oherwydd yr ydym wedi paratoi’n dda iawn.

On your concerns about the NHS, we have undertaken a further review of NHS plans and we will issue further guidance. We are currently looking at the robustness of its local plans to ensure that it is fully prepared. We will base our discussions with the NHS on the successful operation Taliesin that we had at the end of April. That was to test our

Ynglŷn â’ch pryderon ynghylch y GIG, yr ydym wedi gwneud adolygiad pellach o gynlluniau’r GIG a byddwn yn cyhoeddi arweiniad pellach. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn edrych ar gadernid ei gynlluniau lleol i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth yn hollol barod. Byddwn yn seilio’n trafodaethau gyda’r GIG ar ein hymgyrch lwyddiannus ddiwedd

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pandemic flu plans at all levels across Wales to ensure that they were robust, and we have put measures in place to manage any potential outbreak swiftly. That exercise was the result of years of activity and it considered the impact of a flu pandemic not only on the NHS but on all the other public services, such as schools, council services, and utilities. The plans recognise that normal services must continue as far as is possible in any outbreak, because people will still want to have normal services. The exercise gave us an opportunity to see how we would respond, and we are now looking at the value of that exercise to see how we can make more robust plans. I can assure you that those issues are in place.

Ebrill, sef Ymgyrch Taliesin. Nod yr ymgyrch honno oedd profi ein cynlluniau ar gyfer ffliw pandemig ar bob lefel ar draws Cymru er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn gadarn, ac yr ydym wedi rhoi camau ar waith i reoli unrhyw achosion posibl yn ddiymdroi. Canlyniad blynyddoedd o weithgaredd oedd yr ymarfer hwnnw, ac ynddo ystyrid effaith pandemig ffliw nid yn unig ar y GIG ond ar bob gwasanaeth cyhoeddus arall, megis ysgolion, gwasanaethau cynghorau a chyfleustodau. Mae’r cynlluniau’n cydnabod ei bod yn rhaid i wasanaethau arferol barhau cyn belled â phosibl mewn unrhyw achosion oherwydd bydd pobl yn parhau i fod eisiau gwasanaethau arferol. Yr oedd yr ymarfer yn gyfle i weld sut y byddem yn ymateb, ac yr ydym yn awr yn edrych ar werth yr ymarfer hwnnw i weld sut y gallwn wneud cynlluniau cadarnach. Gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod yn ymdrin â’r materion hynny.

On the vaccine, I do not think that I can say anything further to what I have said already. I will give updates when any decisions are taken about what will happen in the future. That is all that I can say. As far as we are concerned, what I have said in my statement about the vaccine stands, but there is an ongoing discussion between the four nations as to how matters should proceed. As soon as I have any further news or information, I will update the Assembly.

Ynglŷn â’r brechlyn, ni chredaf y gallaf ddweud fawr ddim mwy na’r hyn a ddywedais eisoes. Byddaf yn rhoi diweddariadau pan wneir unrhyw benderfyniadau am yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd yn y dyfodol. Dyna’r cwbl y gallaf ei ddweud. O’n rhan ni, mae’r hyn a ddywedais yn fy natganiad am y brechlyn yn dal, ond mae trafodaeth yn parhau rhwng y pedair gwlad ynglŷn â symud ymlaen yn y mater hwn. Cyn gynted ag y bydd gennyf fwy o newyddion neu wybodaeth, byddaf yn diweddaru’r Cynulliad.

Your point about sustained community transmission is interesting, and you have had the benefit of discussions with the Chief Medical Officer for Wales. When transmission becomes sustained is also the subject of discussion among medics. ‘Sustained’ is when someone who does not seem to have any link at all to the virus shows symptoms of it, and it suddenly starts to spread among the population. We are still taking advice on that as we are looking at what the trigger points will be. That is also included in the ongoing discussions among the four nations and the medics about the scientific advice that we need.

Mae eich pwynt ynglŷn â throsglwyddo parhaus yn y gymuned yn ddiddorol, ac yr ydych wedi cael cyfle i drafod hyn gyda Phrif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru. Mae pa bryd y gellir dweud bod y trosglwyddo’n barhaus hefyd yn destun trafod ymysg meddygon. Gellir galw’r trosglwyddo’n ‘barhaus’ pan fydd rhywun sy’n ymddangos fel pe na bai ganddo ddim cysylltiad o gwbl â’r feirws yn arddangos symptomau ohono, ac yn sydyn mae’n dechrau ymledu ymhlith y boblogaeth.Yr ydym yn dal i gael cyngor am hyn gan ein bod yn edrych ar beth fydd yn ei ysgogi. Mae hyn hefyd yn rhan o’r trafodaethau sy’n mynd ymlaen rhwng y pedair gwlad a’r meddygon am y cyngor gwyddonol y mae arnom ei angen.

We are currently relying on our existing Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn dibynnu ar ein

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arrangements with primary care services and we will do so for as long as possible, because they are the services that people understand. However, should the virus spread more widely, we will be a part of the national flu service, which will enable people to use the web or the telephone to get authorisation for anti-viral drugs from various collection points. The details of all those arrangements have been finalised and will come into place if and when we think it necessary. We are now putting the forward planning in place so that we can turn to that, if and when necessary. The problem with this issue is that we must take it a day at a time, as it develops. It is fair to say that the Welsh NHS has responded very well, as has the NHS across the country.

trefniadau presennol gyda’r gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol, a byddwn yn gwneud hyn am y cyfnod hiraf posibl oherwydd dyma’r gwasanaethau y mae pobl yn eu deall. Fodd bynnag, os digwydd i’r feirws ymledu’n ehangach, byddwn yn rhan o’r gwasanaeth ffliw cenedlaethol, sy’n golygu y gall pobl ddefnyddio’r we neu’r ffôn i gael hawl i gael cyffuriau gwrthfeirws o nifer o fannau casglu. Mae manylion yr holl drefniadau hyn wedi’u cwblhau’n derfynol a chânt eu rhoi ar waith os a phan fyddwn yn ystyried bod angen gwneud hynny. Yr ydym yn awr yn rhoi’r blaengynlluniau ar waith fel y gallwn droi atynt, os a phan fydd angen. Y broblem gyda’r mater hwn yw ei bod yn rhaid inni gymryd pethau un dydd ar y tro, wrth i bethau ddatblygu. Teg yw dweud bod GIG Cymru wedi ymateb yn dda iawn, felly hefyd y GIG ar draws y wlad.

I also recognise the point that you made about face masks and respirators. I know what the arrangements are for health and social care staff. This morning, I was discussing with officials the importance of local health boards discussing the requirements of health and social care staff with local government. However, in the longer term, as things develop, we might have to have further discussions about the need for the public to have face masks and respirators. That point has already gone elsewhere for discussion, and I am sure that I will be in a position to update the Assembly on that next week.

Yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod y pwynt a wnaethoch ynghylch mygydau wyneb ac anadlyddion. Gwn beth yw’r trefniadau ar gyfer staff iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Fore heddiw yr oeddwn yn trafod gyda swyddogion mor bwysig yw i fyrddau iechyd lleol drafod anghenion staff iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol gyda chyrff llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, yn y tymor hwy, wrth i bethau ddatblygu, efallai y bydd angen inni gael trafodaethau pellach am yr angen i’r cyhoedd gael mygydau wyneb ac anadlyddion. Mae’r pwynt hwnnw eisoes yn cael ei drafod rywle arall, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddaf mewn sefyllfa i ddiweddaru’r Cynulliad yn ei gylch yr wythnos nesaf.

Helen Mary Jones: I also begin by thanking the Minister for her statement and for the open way in which she is keeping all the health spokespeople in touch with developments. As the Minister rightly said, this situation is changing day by day, sometimes hour by hour, and I find it very useful that the Minister is keeping us so well informed.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf fi hefyd am ddechrau drwy ddiolch i’r Gweinidog am ei datganiad ac am y ffordd agored y mae’n cadw’r holl lefarwyr iechyd mewn cysylltiad â’r datblygiadau diweddaraf. Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog, yn hollol gywir, mae’r sefyllfa’n newid bob dydd, weithiau bob awr, ac i mi mae’n ddefnyddiol iawn fod y Gweinidog yn rhoi gymaint o wybodaeth i ni.

3.10 p.m.

I have a couple of questions, Minister. My perception is that the public information messages are effective. The ‘Catch It, Bin It, Kill It’ message is something that you are beginning to hear people say. However, can

Mae gennyf gwestiwn neu ddau, Weinidog. Fy argraff yw bod y negeseuon gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd yn effeithiol. Mae pobl yn dechrau ailadrodd y neges ‘Ei Ddal, Ei Daflu, Ei Ddifa’. Fodd bynnag, a allwch ein sicrhau

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you assure us that you will be keeping those messages under review and ensuring that, as the situation develops and changes, we are using the messages that are most effective and considering how best to get those across to different audiences and age ranges? I want to take this opportunity to welcome the fact that we will be getting those messages bilingually in Wales, because that is very important.

y byddwch yn parhau i adolygu’r negeseuon hynny ac yn sicrhau ein bod, wrth i’r sefyllfa ddatblygu a newid, yn defnyddio’r negeseuon mwyaf effeithiol ac yn ystyried beth yw’r ffordd orau i gyfleu’r negeseuon hynny i gynulleidfaoedd ac ystodau oedran gwahanol? Hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i groesawu’r ffaith y byddwn yn cael y negeseuon hynny’n ddwyieithog yng Nghymru, oherwydd mae hynny’n bwysig iawn.

In your statement, you mentioned the target to move towards anti-viral drug coverage for 80 per cent of the population. Are you in a position to give us an update today as to when we might expect to reach that target? If you are not able to do so today, perhaps you could include that in a future briefing for party spokespeople on health. I stress that we are already very well prepared with 50 per cent coverage, but it would be useful to know when that 80 per cent coverage is likely to be available.

Yn eich datganiad, soniwch am y targed i symud tuag at ddarparu cyffuriau gwrthfeirws ar gyfer 80 y cant o’r boblogaeth. A ydych mewn sefyllfa i roi diweddariad inni heddiw pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl cyrraedd y targed hwnnw? Os na allwch wneud hynny heddiw, efallai y gallech gynnwys hyn mewn sesiwn briffio ar gyfer llefarwyr iechyd y pleidiau yn y dyfodol. Yr wyf yn pwysleisio ein bod eisoes wedi paratoi’n dda iawn gyda darpariaeth o 50 y cant, ond byddai’n ddefnyddiol gwybod pa bryd y bydd y ddarpariaeth 80 y cant yn debygol o fod ar gael.

You refer in your statement to the four countries needing to decide how the anti-viral drugs stocks will be used if we need to move from containment to mitigation. I seek your reassurance that, if the situation escalates elsewhere in the UK, the fact that we have not yet had an outbreak—and, as you made very clear in your statement, we can expect that we will at some point—does not mean that decisions will be made that would leave our population in any way exposed when the virus eventually reaches us. I wish to end my comments by supporting what you have said about the need to get the balance right between taking the issue seriously and not generating too much public concern or panic. I wish to congratulate you, your officials and the health service in Wales, because I believe that, so far, we are getting the balance right. Indeed, I think that we can congratulate our media on its reporting in Wales, which has been pretty sensible and responsible in contrast to some of the UK outlets that have perhaps not been quite so helpful in that regard.

Yn eich datganiad, dywedwch fod angen i’r pedair gwlad benderfynu sut y defnyddir y cyflenwadau o gyffuriau gwrthfeirws os bydd angen inni symud o reoli i liniaru. Gofynnaf am sicrwydd gennych, os digwydd i’r sefyllfa waethygu rywle arall yn y DU, nad yw’r ffaith nad ydym hyd yma wedi cael nifer o achosion—ac fel yr oeddech yn egluro’n glir iawn yn eich datganiad, gallwn ddisgwyl y bydd hynny’n digwydd rywbryd—yn golygu y gwneir penderfyniadau a fyddai’n gwneud ein poblogaeth yn agored mewn unrhyw ffordd pan fydd y feirws yn ein cyrraedd. Hoffwn gloi fy sylwadau drwy ategu’r hyn yr ydych wedi’i ddweud bod angen sicrhau’r cydbwysedd iawn rhwng cymryd y mater o ddifrif a pheidio â chreu gormod o bryder neu banig ymysg y cyhoedd. Hoffwn eich llongyfarch chi, eich swyddogion a’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, oherwydd hyd yma, yn fy marn i, yr ydym wedi sicrhau’r cydbwysedd iawn. Yn wir, credaf ei bod yn iawn i ni longyfarch y cyfryngau yng Nghymru ar eu hadroddiadau, sydd wedi bod yn gall ac yn gyfrifol, yn wahanol i rai ffynonellau eraill yn y DU nad ydynt, efallai, wedi bod mor gynorthwyol yn y cyswllt

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hwnnw.

Edwina Hart: Your first point is absolutely right: it is important to get the correct messages out at the correct time. At the moment, I think that we are doing that, but, in due course, the messages will change. If the virus starts to spread and so on, it is important to ensure that we are ready and able to move to the next stage and that we get the message out. That is already in hand; there is a great deal of detailed discussion and communications under way, and not only at a Wales level, but at UK level. Of course, the need to get the right messages across goes beyond the UK. That is very much in our mind. In fact, last week, there was a very successful meeting with the faith communities to talk about how to get messages across to the hard-to-reach groups, which is important. There are other hard-to-reach groups that we must recognise.

Edwina Hart: Mae eich pwynt cyntaf yn hollol gywir: mae’n bwysig rhoi’r negeseuon iawn ar yr adeg iawn. Ar hyn o bryd, credaf ein bod yn gwneud hynny, ond bydd y negeseuon yn newid maes o law. Os bydd y feirws yn dechrau ymledu, ac yn y blaen, mae’n bwysig sicrhau ein bod yn barod am hynny ac yn gallu symud ymlaen i’r cam nesaf, a’n bod yn lledaenu’r neges honno. Yr ydym wedi trefnu hynny eisoes; mae llawer iawn o drafodaethau manwl a chyfathrebu ar y gweill, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond hefyd ar lefel y DU. Wrth gwrs, mae angen cyfleu’r negeseuon iawn y tu hwnt i’r DU. Mae hyn yn amlwg iawn yn ein meddyliau. A dweud y gwir, yr wythnos diwethaf cynhaliwyd cyfarfod llwyddiannus iawn gyda’r cymunedau ffydd i drafod sut y gellid sicrhau bod grwpiau anodd eu cyrraedd yn cael y negeseuon, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Rhaid inni gydnabod grwpiau eraill sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd.

When we talk about communication issues, we talk about people getting information by text messages or on websites. However, we need to remember that many people, particularly vulnerable groups, do not have access to such things. It is important that we look at the most vulnerable in society and start to build our communications platform from that level, rather than assuming that people can use a computer in the house or have a conversation on the phone. We must recognise that some people would not be able to have a lengthy conversation about these issues on the phone, because they would not have the confidence to answer the questions. That is why it is very important that we look at communications for the most vulnerable in society and get our strategy right for them, because I would suggest that others will know better how to get that information from the system.

Pan fyddwn yn sôn am faterion yn ymwneud â chyfathrebu, yr ydym yn sôn am bobl yn cael gwybodaeth drwy gyfrwng negeseuon testun neu ar wefannau. Ond rhaid inni gofio fod nifer o bobl, a grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed yn arbennig, yn methu defnyddio pethau fel hyn. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried yr unigolion hynny yn ein cymdeithas sydd fwyaf agored i niwed a seilio ein llwyfan cyfathrebu ar y lefel honno, yn hytrach na chymryd fod pobl yn gallu defnyddio’r cyfrifiadur yn y tŷ neu’n gallu cael sgwrs dros y ffôn. Rhaid inni sylweddoli na fyddai rhai pobl yn gallu cynnal sgwrs hir am bethau o’r fath dros y ffôn, oherwydd ni fyddai ganddynt yr hyder i ateb y cwestiynau. Dyna pam y mae’n hollbwysig inni ystyried dulliau cyfathrebu ar gyfer y rhai sydd fwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas, a sicrhau bod ein strategaeth yn briodol iddynt hwy, oherwydd byddwn yn awgrymu y byddai gan bobl eraill well syniad sut i gael yr wybodaeth honno o’r system.

On anti-viral drugs, I would be more than happy to look at the projected figures and provide an update. You are right to say that things have happened elsewhere in the UK and that a certain approach has been taken; people in Wales will expect the same

O ran cyffuriau gwrthfeirws, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i edrych ar y ffigurau rhagamcanol a rhoi diweddariad ichi. Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod pethau wedi digwydd mewn mannau eraill yn y DU a bod dull gweithredu penodol wedi ei roi ar waith; bydd pobl yng

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approach to be taken if the same happens here. I am mindful of that, but I am also mindful that we must consider what would happen if it goes a stage further. However, we are not at that stage yet, and the important thing is that, as I said to Andrew R.T. Davies, this is dealt with on a day-by-day basis. The scientists are advising us daily, and I am taking advice from the chief medical officer daily, so I think that you can be reassured on that.

Nghymru yn disgwyl inni roi’r un dulliau gweithredu ar waith os digwydd yr un peth yma. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o hynny, ond gwn hefyd ei bod yn rhaid i ni ystyried beth fyddai’n digwydd petai pethau’n mynd gam ymhellach. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym wedi cyrraedd y cam hwnnw eto, a’r hyn sy’n bwysig yw inni ddelio â hyn un dydd ar y tro, fel y dywedais wrth Andrew R.T. Davies. Mae gwyddonwyr yn ein cynghori bob dydd, a chaf gyngor gan y prif swyddog meddygol bob dydd. Felly, credaf y gallwch fod yn dawel eich meddwl am hynny.

On your last point, we are right to keep a balanced perspective on this. I am sure that you recall that, at the start of the outbreak, when we saw the pictures from Mexico, anyone watching the news on television would think, ‘What on earth is happening with all of these people in masks?’. I would have been quite terrified if I had just popped in at the beginning of a news broadcast. However, we have been lucky to have been able to keep the balance right. The Welsh media has been extremely helpful in that regard, and let us hope that they continue to be so.

Parthed eich pwynt olaf, yr ydym yn gwneud y peth iawn wrth gadw safbwynt cytbwys ar hyn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cofiwch, pan dorrodd achosion cyntaf yr haint allan, pan welsom y lluniau o Fecsico, y byddai unrhyw un a oedd yn gwylio’r newyddion ar y teledu yn meddwl, ‘Beth yn y byd sy’n digwydd gyda’r holl bobl hyn mewn mygydau?’ Byddwn i wedi dychryn yn llwyr petawn newydd daro i mewn ar ddechrau darllediad newyddion. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi bod yn ffodus i allu cadw’r cydbwysedd yn iawn. Mae cyfryngau Cymru wedi bod yn barod iawn eu cymorth yn y cyswllt hwnnw, a gadewch inni obeithio y bydd hynny’n parhau.

Peter Black: I join my colleagues in thanking you, Minister, for the regular information that you bring to the Chamber, and for the briefings that we have as health spokespeople. I think that Andrew and Helen Mary have covered nearly every question that I could think of, but there is one more question that I wanted to ask. I understand, from this week’s briefing, that one case has been identified in the UK where there is no apparent link with Mexico or with anyone who has come from Mexico. Clearly, that indicates that the virus is getting into the community. Much of the information that people are receiving about this virus indicates that, if they get flu, they should immediately check to see whether they have been in touch with someone from Mexico or whether they have come back from Mexico, which would immediately raise suspicions that they have swine flu, before seeking advice and having a proper test. However, if someone develops flu without having had such contacts, they may not be alerted in that way and they may not get the appropriate tests, which might

Peter Black: Ymunaf â’m cyd-Aelodau i ddiolch ichi, Weinidog, am yr wybodaeth reolaidd yr ydych yn ei rhoi i’r Siambr, ac am y cyfarfodydd briffio a gawn fel llefarwyr iechyd. Credaf fod Andrew a Helen Mary wedi ymdrin â phob cwestiwn bron y gallwn i feddwl amdano, ond mae un cwestiwn pellach yr oeddwn am ei ofyn. Deallaf, yn ôl y briffio yr wythnos hon, fod un achos wedi ei ddarganfod yn y DU lle nad oes cysylltiad i’w weld â Mecsico nac â neb sydd wedi dod o Fecsico. Yn amlwg, mae hynny’n dangos bod y firws yn mynd allan i’r gymuned. Mae llawer o’r wybodaeth a gaiff pobl am y feirws hwn yn dangos, os cânt y ffliw, y dylent ymholi ar unwaith i weld a ydynt wedi bod mewn cysylltiad â rhywun o Fecsico neu a ydynt wedi dod yn ôl o Fecsico, a fyddai’n codi amheuon ar unwaith mai’r ffliw moch sydd arnynt, cyn ceisio cyngor a chael prawf iawn. Fodd bynnag, os bydd rhywun yn datblygu’r ffliw a hwythau heb fod â chysylltiadau o’r fath, efallai na fyddent yn meddwl fel hynny ac efallai na fyddent yn cael y profion priodol, a allai’n hawdd arwain

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well lead to further spreading of the virus. Given that this case has now occurred and that other cases of a similar nature might occur, what further information is being given to people to warn them that this is a possibility and that, if they have any influenza symptoms, they should ensure that they have a test to make sure that they do not have this particular strain?

at ledaenu’r feirws ymhellach. O gofio bod yr achos hwn wedi digwydd bellach ac y gall achosion eraill tebyg godi, pa wybodaeth bellach sy’n cael ei rhoi i bobl i’w rhybuddio bod hyn yn bosibilrwydd, ac os cânt symptomau’r ffliw y dylent sicrhau eu bod yn cael prawf i wneud yn siŵr nad y math neilltuol hwn sydd arnynt?

Edwina Hart: That is a valid point. We do not want to use the expression that this is ‘mild’, but the symptoms have been mild in the United Kingdom. There may well be people who have returned thinking that they have hay fever or a summer cold and who have taken to their beds without making any inquiries. That is the nature of individuals—people just get on with things. Therefore, I think that there are issues around that.

Edwina Hart: Mae hynny’n bwynt dilys. Nid ydym am ddefnyddio’r ymadrodd fod hyn yn ‘ysgafn’, ond mae’r symptomau wedi bod yn ysgafn yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’n ddigon posibl fod pobl wedi dychwelyd gan feddwl mai twymyn y gwair neu anwyd haf sydd arnynt a’u bod wedi mynd i’r gwely heb wneud dim ymholiadau. Dyna yw natur unigolion—mae pobl yn bwrw ymlaen â phethau. Felly, credaf fod materion i’w hystyried ynglŷn â hynny.

The issue about the message that you raised is quite important, Peter, but at present we are only looking at one case. Obviously, I will take advice from the chief medical officer and others, and then decide on the nature of messages that might have to be given out in the future. As you said, this is a daily thing; this has just cropped up and we have to take it as it comes and adjust the messages accordingly.

Mae’r mater ynglŷn â’r neges a godwyd gennych yn eithaf pwysig, Peter, ond ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn edrych ar un achos yn unig. Yn amlwg, byddaf yn cael cyngor gan y prif swyddog meddygol ac eraill, ac yna’n penderfynu ar natur y negeseuon y byddai’n rhaid eu cyhoeddi efallai yn y dyfodol. Fel y dywedech, mae hyn yn beth dyddiol; mae hyn newydd godi a rhaid inni ei gymryd fel y daw ac addasu’r negeseuon yn unol â hynny.

The Presiding Officer: Thank you for your statement, Minister.

Y Llywydd: Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog.

Ethol Aelod i’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaethElection of a Member to the Subordinate Legislation Committee

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I move that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol David Melding (Ceidwadwyr) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth yn lle Mark Isherwood (Ceidwadwyr). (NDM4212)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3, elects David Melding (Conservative) as a member of the Subordinate Legislation Committee in place of Mark Isherwood (Conservative). (NDM4212)

Y Llywydd: Gwelaf fod pawb yn cytuno i’r cynnig. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, derbynnir y cynnig.

The Presiding Officer: I see that everyone is in agreement. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer

Y Llywydd: Mae’n dda gennyf gyhoeddi canlyniad dau falot. Mae Joyce Watson wedi ennill y balot ar gyfer Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig, gyda’i chynnig ar arwynebau caled, ac mae Janet Ryder wedi ennill y balot am Fesur arfaethedig, gyda’i chynnig ar asesu’r galw am addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Llongyfarchiadau i’r ddwy.

The Presiding Officer: I am pleased to announce the result of two ballots. Joyce Watson has won the ballot for a proposed legislative competence Order, with her proposal on hard surfaces, and Janet Ryder has won the ballot for a proposed Measure, with her proposal on assessment of demand for Welsh-medium education. Congratulations, both.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 3.18 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 3.18 p.m.

Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar Fesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Stage 1 Debate on the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure

Jeff Cuthbert: I move that Jeff Cuthbert: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.95:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.95:

agrees to the general principles of the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure. (NDM4209)

yn cytuno ar egwyddorion cyffredinol Mesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. (NDM4209)

As Chair of the Committee on Standards of Conduct, I am pleased to have the opportunity to open this debate on the general principles of the proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure, which I introduced to the Assembly in March on behalf of the committee. This is the first committee-proposed legislation to be considered by the Assembly. I am acting on behalf of the committee today and would like to pay tribute to current and former committee members for their hard work and for the consensual and non-partisan approach that they took in considering this proposed legislation. I am referring to Chris Franks, Brynle Williams, Jenny Randerson and Kirsty Williams before her.

Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, yr wyf yn falch cael y cyfle i agor y ddadl hon ar egwyddorion cyffredinol Mesur arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, a gyflwynais i’r Cynulliad ym mis Mawrth ar ran y pwyllgor. Dyma’r ddeddfwriaeth gyntaf a gynigir gan bwyllgor i gael ei hystyried gan y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn gweithredu ar ran y pwyllgor heddiw, a hoffwn roi teyrnged i aelodau presennol a blaenorol y pwyllgor am eu gwaith caled a’r ffordd gydsyniol ac amhleidiol yr aethant ati i ystyried y ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig hon. Yr wyf yn cyfeirio at Chris Franks, Brynle Williams, Jenny Randerson a Kirsty Williams o’i blaen.

3.20 p.m.

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I am also grateful to our colleagues on the Finance Committee for their positive support and would like to thank all those who gave evidence to the committee, without whom we could not have carried out such well-informed developments of the proposals. Furthermore, and last but not least, I thank all staff and officials of the Committee on Standards of Conduct, and in particular Sulafa Halstead and Keith Bush, for all their hard work in preparing the proposed Measure. Their valuable support and advice along the way contributed significantly to our work.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar hefyd i’n cyd-Aelodau ar y Pwyllgor Cyllid am eu cefnogaeth gadarnhaol a hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor. Hebddynt, ni fyddem wedi gallu datblygu’r cynigion ar sail cymaint o wybodaeth. At hynny, ac yn olaf er nad yn lleiaf, diolchaf i holl staff a swyddogion y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, ac yn arbennig Sulafa Halstead a Keith Bush am eu holl waith caled yn paratoi’r Mesur arfaethedig. Cyfrannodd eu cymorth a’u cyngor gwerthfawr ar hyd y daith yn sylweddol at ein gwaith.

The proposed Measure’s fundamental purpose is to place the position of the Commissioner for Standards in the National Assembly for Wales on a statutory basis. It will ensure that the commissioner, once appointed, is seen to be totally independent of the Assembly and, therefore, able to investigate complaints with complete objectivity. It aims to provide the commissioner with powers to enable him or her to investigate complaints rigorously, including the power to require third parties to provide relevant information, and to contribute to the maintenance of high standards of public life in the conduct of business in the National Assembly for Wales.

Pwrpas sylfaenol y Mesur arfaethedig yw sefydlu swydd y Comisiynydd Safonau yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ar sail statudol. Bydd yn sicrhau bod y comisiynydd, pan gaiff ei benodi, yn amlwg yn hollol annibynnol ar y Cynulliad ac y bydd, felly, yn gallu ymchwilio i gwynion yn hollol wrthrychol. Y nod yw rhoi i’r comisiynydd y pwerau i’w alluogi ef neu hi i ymchwilio’n drylwyr i gwynion, gan gynnwys y pŵer i fynnu bod trydydd partïon yn darparu gwybodaeth berthnasol, ac i gyfrannu at gynnal safonau uchel mewn bywyd cyhoeddus yn y moddy cyflawnir busnes yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.

Two public consultations have been carried out on the proposals within the Measure. In June last year, the committee undertook a consultation that posed fundamental questions about the role and independence of the standards commissioner. The responses to this exercise informed the drafting, so that the proposed Measure, when introduced, would reflect the desired policy outcome. As well as stakeholders, the consultation included discussion with the public at events like the Royal Welsh Show. The committee was encouraged by supportive evidence provided by stakeholders during the equivalent to Stage 1 committee sessions, and we welcomed their general consensus in favour of the proposed Measure. It was felt, for example, that a statutory post would provide greater protection and authority and ensure that properly defined arrangements were in place. In addition, the independence of the post was emphasised. A second

Mae dau ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus wedi eu cynnal ar y cynigion yn y Mesur. Ym mis Mehefin y llynedd, trefnodd y pwyllgor ymgynghoriad a oedd yn codi cwestiynau sylfaenol am rôl ac annibyniaeth y comisiynydd safonau. Yr oedd yr ymatebion i’r ymarferiad hwn yn sail i’r gwaith drafftio, fel y byddai’r Mesur arfaethedig, pan gâi ei gyflwyno, yn adlewyrchu’r canlyniad polisi a ddymunid. Yn ogystal â rhanddeiliaid, yr oedd yr ymgynghoriad yn cynnwys trafodaeth gyda’r cyhoedd mewn digwyddiadau fel Sioe Frenhinol Cymru. Calonogwyd y pwyllgor gan y dystiolaeth gefnogol a ddarparwyd gan randdeiliaid yn ystod yr hyn sy’n cyfateb i sesiynau pwyllgor Cam 1, ac yr oeddem yn croesawu eu cydsyniad cyffredinol o blaid y Mesur arfaethedig. Teimlid, er enghraifft, y byddai swydd statudol yn rhoi mwy o ddiogelwch ac awdurdod ac yn sicrhau bod trefniadau wedi eu diffinio’n glir wedi’u gosod.

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consultation was undertaken during November and December of last year, on detail contained in the initial draft of the proposed Measure. Consultees who responded were supportive, in broad terms, of the key provisions set out in the proposed Measure and indicated agreement that it will achieve its overall purpose and aim. They also indicated areas where the initial draft could be clearer.

Pwysleisiwyd annibyniaeth y swydd yn ogystal. Trefnwyd ail ymgynghoriad yn ystod mis Tachwedd a mis Rhagfyr y llynedd, ynglŷn â manylion yn nrafft cychwynnol y Mesur arfaethedig. Yr oedd y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ac a ymatebodd ar y cyfan yn cefnogi’r darpariaethau allweddol a nodwyd yn y Mesur arfaethedig a chytunent y bydd yn cyflawni ei bwrpas a’i nod cyffredinol. Tynnent sylw hefyd at fannau lle gallai’r drafft cychwynnol fod yn gliriach.

This is committee proposed legislation and, therefore, different from other proposed Measures that have been debated at this stage. Proposed Measures are normally considered by Stage 1 Measure committees and, when these report, they often make recommendations that have to be fed into the proposed Measure by amendments at Stage 2. Since this is a committee proposed Measure, we go straight to Stage 1 consideration in Plenary. However, the approach that the committee has adopted means that we have already been able to incorporate changes into our draft before it was formally introduced on behalf of the Committee on Standards of Conduct. These changes were to add clarity and to ensure the Measure is effective.

Deddfwriaeth a gynigir gan bwyllgor yw hon, ac felly mae’n wahanol i Fesurau arfaethedig eraill sydd wedi eu trafod yn y cyfnod hwn. Fel arfer caiff Mesurau arfaethedig eu hystyried gan bwyllgorau Mesur Cyfnod 1, a phan fydd y rhain yn adrodd byddant yn aml yn gwneud argymhellion y mae’n rhaid eu cynnwys yn y Mesur arfaethedig drwy welliannau yng Nghyfnod 2. Gan mai Mesur a gynigir gan bwyllgor yw hwn, awn yn syth i’w ystyried yng Nghyfnod 1 mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r dull y mae’r pwyllgor wedi’i fabwysiadu yn golygu ein bod eisoes wedi gallu ymgorffori newidiadau yn ein drafft cyn ei gyflwyno’n ffurfiol ar ran y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Yr oedd y newidiadau hyn yn rhoi eglurder ychwanegol i sicrhau bod y Mesur yn effeithiol.

I will now briefly outline key provisions within the proposed Measure. Section 5 sets out the functions of the Commissioner are to receive, investigate and report on complaints that the conduct of an Assembly Member has failed to comply with a requirement of a relevant provision. That reflects the current remit of the Assembly’s Committee on Standards of Conduct, as defined by Standing Order No. 16.1. Sufficient flexibility has been included to enable extension to these rules to fall within the commissioner’s jurisdiction. For the sake of completeness, I would like to draw attention to the fact that the commissioner’s functions extend beyond those relating to individual complaints and include those set out in section 6. They include being able to give advice on procedures relating to the making and investigation of complaints, but also to advise the Assembly on matters of general principle relating to the conduct of Assembly Members, and on matters relating to promoting high standards in public life

Yn awr, amlinellaf yn fyr y darpariaethau allweddol yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Mae adran 5 yn gosod allan mai swyddogaethau’r Comisiynydd fydd derbyn ac ymchwilio ac adrodd am gwynion fod ymddygiad Aelod Cynulliad wedi methu cydymffurfio â gofyniad darpariaeth berthnasol. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu cylch gwaith presennol Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad y Cynulliad, fel y’i diffinnir gan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 16.1. Mae digon o hyblygrwydd wedi ei gynnwys fel y gellir ymestyn y rheolau hyn er mwyn iddynt ddod o fewn awdurdodaeth y comisiynydd. I fod yn gyflawn, hoffwn dynnu sylw at y ffaith fod swyddogaethau’r comisiynydd yn ymestyn y tu hwnt i’r rheiny’n ymwneud â chwynion unigol, a’u bod yn cynnwys y rheiny sydd yn adran 6. Maent yn cynnwys gallu rhoi cyngor ar weithdrefnau’n ymwneud â gwneud cwynion ac ymchwilio iddynt, ond hefyd maent yn cynnwys cynghori’r Cynulliad ar faterion o egwyddor gyffredinol yn ymwneud ag ymddygiad Aelodau Cynulliad, ac ar faterion

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generally. These latter functions of the commissioner are designed to avoid situations that might result in a complaint. They are based on the principle that prevention is better than cure.

yn ymwneud â hybu safonau uchel mewn bywyd cyhoeddus yn gyffredinol. Mae’r swyddogaethau olaf hyn o eiddo’r comisiynydd wedi eu llunio i osgoi sefyllfaoedd a allai arwain at gŵyn. Maent wedi’u seilio ar yr egwyddor mai gwell rhwystro’r clwy na’i wella.

Section 4 makes clear the independence of the commissioner. It provides that the commissioner is not subject to the direction or control of the Assembly, except for complying with a requirement for the commissioner to report annually to the Assembly. Sections 8 and 9 are key provisions of the proposed Measure. They provide the commissioner with the powers to carry out rigorous investigations of complaints by being able to call witnesses and documents. At present, our non-statutory Commissioner for Standards has no such powers, and the powers that can be exercised by the Assembly and its committees under the Government of Wales Act 2006 are of very limited use in relation to the investigation of complaints. The existence of the new powers does not mean that they are likely to be used routinely. The commissioner will only need to compel a witness to give evidence or to produce documents if that person refuses to do so voluntarily. The fact that he or she has those powers in reserve will mean that witnesses will have a strong incentive to co-operate with investigations.

Mae adran 4 yn gwneud annibyniaeth y comisiynydd yn glir. Mae’n darparu nad yw’r comisiynydd yn dod dan gyfarwyddyd na rheolaeth y Cynulliad, heblaw am gydymffurfio â gofyniad ar i’r comisiynydd roi adroddiad i’r Cynulliad bob blwyddyn. Mae adrannau 8 a 9 yn ddarpariaeth allweddol yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Maent yn rhoi i’r comisiynydd y pwerau i gynnal ymchwiliadau grymus i gwynion drwy allu galw am dystion a dogfennau. Ar hyn o bryd, nid oes gan ein Comisiynydd Safonau anstatudol ddim pwerau o’r fath, ac y mae’r pwerau y gall y Cynulliad a’i bwyllgorau eu harfer dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006 yn gyfyngedig iawn o ran ymchwilio i gwynion. Nid yw bodolaeth y pwerau newydd yn golygu eu bod yn debygol o gael eu defnyddio’n rheolaidd. Dim ond os bydd tyst yn gwrthod rhoi tystiolaeth neu gyflwyno dogfennau o’i wirfodd y bydd angen i’r comisiynydd ei orfodi i wneud hynny. Bydd y ffaith fod ganddo ef neu hi y pwerau hynny wrth gefn yn golygu y bydd cymhelliad cryf i dystion gydweithredu ag ymchwiliadau.

Support for strengthening the commissioner role through this approach was broad, and we therefore concluded that a statutory approach is warranted. I am encouraged by the constructive suggestions and the messages of support that the committee received, which informed the development of the proposal. I urge Members to take the same view, and to support the proposed Measure today.

Yr oedd y gefnogaeth i gryfhau rôl y comisiynydd drwy weithredu fel hyn yn eang, a daethom i’r casgliad, felly, fod cyfiawnhad dros weithredu’n statudol. Fe’m calonogir gan yr awgrymiadau adeiladol a’r negeseuon o gefnogaeth a gafodd y pwyllgor, a chyfranasant at ddatblygu’r cynnig. Anogaf yr Aelodau i fod o’r un farn, ac i gefnogi’r Mesur arfaethedig heddiw.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid.

Angela Burns: The primary purpose of the proposed Measure is to place the Commissioner for Standards in the National Assembly for Wales on a statutory basis, thereby strengthening the role and contributing to the maintenance of high standards in public life. The Finance

Angela Burns: Prif bwrpas y Mesur arfaethedig yw gosod y Comisiynydd Safonau yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ar sail statudol, gan gryfhau’r rôl drwy hynny a chyfrannu at gynnal safonau uchel mewn bywyd cyhoeddus. Sylwodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar yr ansicrwydd sydd

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Committee noted the uncertainties attached to the financial estimates, which are inevitable, as many of the costs associated with the commissioner are derived from the level of activity needed to investigate complaints. However, the committee felt that it was reasonable to assume that the proposed Measure alone would not cause a surge in demand for the standards commissioner’s service. While the proposed Measure may result in an increase in expenditure, any increase should be small and should have little effect on other programmes, provided that the rates of remuneration and expenses remain largely unchanged. On that basis, the Finance Committee has no objection to the proposed Measure.

ynghlwm wrth yr amcangyfrifon ariannol, sy’n anochel gan fod llawer o’r costau sy’n gysylltiedig â’r comisiynydd yn deillio o lefel y gweithgarwch sy’n ofynnol i ymchwilio i gwynion. Fodd bynnag, teimlai’r pwyllgor ei bod yn rhesymol tybied na fyddai’r Mesur arfaethedig ohono’i hun yn achosi ymchwydd yn y galw am wasanaeth y comisiynydd safonau. Er y gall y Mesur arfaethedig arwain at gynnydd mewn gwariant, dylai unrhyw gynnydd fod yn fach ac ni ddylai gael fawr o effaith ar raglenni eraill, cyhyd ag y bydd y cyfraddau tâl a threuliau yn dal fel y maent ar y cyfan. Ar y sail honno, nid oes gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid ddim gwrthwynebiad i’r Mesur arfaethedig.

Chris Franks: As a Member of the Committee on Standards of Conduct, I take this opportunity to expand on an issue touched upon by its Chair. He mentioned that this is the first Measure to be proposed by a committee. That means that the procedure that applies to it is a little bit different to that that applies to other proposed Measures. However, in developing the proposed Measure, the committee has undertaken pre-legislative-style scrutiny; it has consulted widely, as we have heard, and it has taken written and oral evidence from individuals and organisations with knowledge, interest and expertise in the field. The committee consulted on the broad principles of the proposed Measure. It then developed an initial draft, and consulted on its detailed wording. The committee then took into account the responses in order to refine the proposals that we are debating today.

Chris Franks: Fel Aelod o’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, achubaf ar y cyfle hwn i ymhelaethu ar fater y cyffyrddodd y Cadeirydd ag ef. Soniodd mai hwn yw’r Mesur cyntaf i gael ei gynnig gan bwyllgor. Mae hynny’n golygu bod y weithdrefn sy’n berthnasol iddo fymryn yn wahanol i’r hyn sy’n berthnasol i Fesurau arfaethedig eraill. Fodd bynnag, wrth ddatblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig mae’r pwyllgor wedi gwneud gwaith craffu o’r math a wneir cyn y broses ddeddfu; mae wedi ymgynghori’n eang, fel y clywsom, ac mae wedi cymryd tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig a llafar gan unigolion a chyrff sydd â gwybodaeth, diddordeb ac arbenigedd yn y maes. Ymgynghorodd y pwyllgor ar egwyddorion bras y Mesur arfaethedig. Yna, datblygodd ddrafft cychwynnol ac ymgynghorodd ar ei eiriad manwl. Wedyn, ystyriodd y pwyllgor yr ymatebion er mwyn caboli’r cynigion yr ydym yn eu trafod heddiw.

As a result of the points raised, the committee made a number of changes to the detail in order to improve the clarity and effectiveness of the proposal. Those changes included underlining the independence of the role by limiting the appointment of a commissioner to a single term; adding an obligation for the commissioner to appear before the Assembly—although, in practice, that would mean before the committee—if required, to ensure that the commissioner is subject to proper accountability; extending the exclusion from eligibility for appointment as commissioner to cover staff of the Welsh Assembly

O ganlyniad i’r pwyntiau a godwyd, gwnaeth y pwyllgor nifer o newidiadau yn y manylion er mwyn gwella eglurder ac effeithiolrwydd y cynnig. Yr oedd y newidiadau hynny’n cynnwys tanlinellu annibyniaeth y rôl drwy gyfyngu penodiad comisiynydd i un tymor; ychwanegu rhwymedigaeth ar y comisiynydd i ymddangos gerbron y Cynulliad—er y byddai hynny, mewn gwirionedd, yn golygu gerbron y pwyllgor—petai angen, i sicrhau bod y comisiynydd yn ddarostyngedig i atebolrwydd iawn; ehangu’r eithrio rhag bod yn gymwys i benodiad yn gomisiynydd i gynnwys staff Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru

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Government and the Assembly; removing from the face of the proposed Measure details as to the grounds on which the commissioner may dismiss a complaint, which will now be set out in the Assembly’s complaints procedure, ensuring greater flexibility; introducing safeguards to ensure that the Assembly Clerk, as the accounting officer for the Assembly Commission, is consulted by the commissioner in relation to liabilities that the commissioner proposes to incur; and, finally, including a duty on the commissioner to bring to the accounting officer’s attention issues relating to the proper use of public funds, where those are revealed in the course of an investigation. In developing the proposed Measure, the committee has been thorough in examining both the need for it and the details of its provisions. I hope that the Assembly will show its support today by approving its general principles.

a’r Cynulliad; dileu o’r Mesur arfaethedig fanylion am y rhesymau pam y gall y comisiynydd wrthod cwyn, a hynny bellach yn cael ei osod allan yng ngweithdrefn gwyno’r Cynulliad, gan sicrhau mwy o hyblygrwydd; cyflwyno mesurau diogelu i sicrhau bod y comisiynydd yn ymgynghori â Chlerc y Cynulliad, fel swyddog cyfrifo Comisiwn y Cynulliad, ynglŷn ag unrhyw atebolrwydd y mae’r comisiynydd yn bwriadu ei achosi; ac yn olaf, cynnwys dyletswydd ar y comisiynydd i ddwyn i sylw’r swyddog cyfrifo faterion yn ymwneud â defnyddio arian cyhoeddus yn briodol, lle caiff y rhain eu datgelu yn ystod ymchwiliad. Wrth ddatblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig, mae’r pwyllgor wedi archwilio’n drwyadl yr angen amdano ac manylion ei ddarpariaethau. Gobeithio y bydd y Cynulliad yn dangos ei gefnogaeth heddiw drwy gymeradwyo’i egwyddorion cyffredinol.

3.30 p.m.

Brynle Williams: I would also like to pay tribute to the clerks and the committee who drafted this proposed Measure. I would also like to thank those who have submitted evidence to the consultation. Having considered the matter with the committee, I can give my full support to this proposed Measure by appointing an independent commissioner for standards on a statutory basis. I believe that the independence of the commissioner is of key importance. This will allow them to carry out their work impartially and objectively. This will be the best way of maintaining public trust and confidence in this institution. There is no need for me to elaborate further; the Chairman of the committee, Jeff, and Chris have outlined the mechanics of this. Therefore, I hope that you all support this proposed Measure.

Brynle Williams: Hoffwn i hefyd roi teyrnged i’r clercod ac i’r pwyllgor a ddrafftiodd y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Hoffwn ddiolch hefyd i’r rheiny sydd wedi cyflwyno tystiolaeth i’r ymgynghoriad. Ar ôl ystyried y mater gyda’r pwyllgor, gallaf roi fy nghefnogaeth lawn i’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn drwy benodi comisiynydd annibynnol ar gyfer safonau ar sail statudol. Credaf fod annibyniaeth y comisiynydd o bwys allweddol. Bydd hyn yn caniatáu iddo ef neu hi wneud ei waith yn ddiduedd ac yn wrthrychol. Dyma’r ffordd orau i gynnal ymddiriedaeth a hyder y cyhoedd yn y sefydliad hwn. Nid oes angen imi ymhelaethu ragor; mae Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, Jeff, a Chris wedi amlinellu’r modd y bydd hyn yn gweithio. Felly, gobeithio y byddwch i gyd yn cefnogi’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn.

Jeff Cuthbert: I am grateful for the contributions that have been made. I note that they were all supportive and broadly reinforce the points that I made in my opening remarks. Consequently, I feel that there is nothing for me to respond to at this point.

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfraniadau sydd wedi’u gwneud. Sylwaf eu bod i gyd yn gefnogol a’u bod yn atgyfnerthu’n fras y pwyntiau a wneuthum yn fy sylwadau agoriadol. Felly, teimlaf nad oes dim imi ymateb iddo yn awr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes

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motion. Does any Member object? I see not. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Penderfyniad Ariannol ar Fesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Financial Resolution for the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I move that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, at ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o Fesur Arfaethedig Comisiynydd Safonau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn cytuno i unrhyw gynnydd mewn gwariant o’r math y cyfeiriwyd ato yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.80(i), sy’n codi o ganlyniad iddi. (NDM4208)

the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Proposed National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order No. 23.80(i) arising in consequence thereof. (NDM4208)

The Deputy Presiding Officer: There are no speakers for this item. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see not. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Nid oes siaradwr ar gyfer yr eitem hon. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That vote concludes Stage 1 of the passage of this proposed Assembly Measure. In accordance with Standing Order No. 23.29, Stage 2—the detailed consideration by committee— begins on the first working day after Stage 1 is completed. Therefore, from tomorrow, Members may table amendments to the proposed Measure for consideration by the Stage 2 committee. Amendments should be tabled through the legislation office and Members will receive an e-mail in due course explaining the process and key deadlines.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw’r bleidlais honno â Cham 1 yn hynt y Mesur Cynulliad Arfaethedig hwn i ben. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.29, Cam 2, bydd yr ystyriaeth fanwl gan bwyllgor yn dechrau ar y diwrnod gweithio cyntaf ar ôl cwblhau Cam 1. Felly, o yfory ymlaen caiff Aelodau gyflwyno gwelliannau i’r Mesur arfaethedig i bwyllgor Cam 2 eu hystyried. Dylid cyflwyno gwelliannau drwy’r swyddfa ddeddfwriaeth, a bydd yr Aelodau’n cael e-bost maes o law i esbonio’r broses a’r dyddiadau cau pwysig.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr CymreigWelsh Conservatives Debate

Labeli BwydFood Labelling

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones, and amendment 2 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones, a gwelliant 2 yn enw Peter Black.

Brynle Williams: I move that Brynle Williams: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

supports the campaign for clearer country of origin food labelling. (NDM4210)

yn cefnogi’r ymgyrch dros ddangos yn gliriach ar labeli y wlad lle tarddodd y bwyd.(NDM4210)

I would like to open by welcoming the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government is willing to support the principle of this debate. However, I am disappointed that, for party political reasons, it refuses to back this campaign, when it is working for the interests of Welsh consumers.

Hoffwn ddechrau drwy groesawu’r ffaith fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n barod i gefnogi egwyddor y ddadl hon. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn siomedig ei bod, am resymau pleidiol-wleidyddol, yn gwrthod cefnogi’r ymgyrch hon, er ei bod yn gweithio er lles defnyddwyr Cymru.

We are more than happy to support the amendment tabled by the Liberal Democrats.

Yr ydym yn fwy na bodlon cefnogi’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

This debate on food labelling is timely, particularly in the current economic circumstances. It has long been the case that food from outside the UK has masqueraded as British at the point of sale simply to pick up a premium. In a recession, it is more important than ever that consumers who want to support Welsh and British jobs can do so by buying food that is grown and processed here. However, they can do this only if they have confidence in the label on a product.

Mae’r ddadl ynglŷn â labelu bwyd yn un amserol, yn enwedig dan yr amgylchiadau economaidd presennol. Ers tro, ffugiwyd bod bwyd o’r tu allan i’r DU yn dod o Brydain yn y man gwerthu, a hynny dim ond er mwyn ei werthu am bris uchel. Mewn dirwasgiad, mae’n bwysicach nag erioed i ddefnyddwyr sy’n awyddus i gefnogi swyddi yng Nghymru ac ym Mhrydain allu gwneud hynny drwy brynu bwyd sy’n cael ei dyfu a’i brosesu yma. Fodd bynnag, gallant wneud hynny dim ond os ydynt yn teimlo’n hyderus yn y label sydd ar gynnyrch.

I want to emphasise from the outset that the Welsh Conservatives are not advocating protectionism. We believe that consumers should be free to make their own decisions on what and where they buy. If they want to buy food produced elsewhere in the world, then they have the right to do so. What the Welsh Conservatives are against are the dishonest labelling practices that can cheat the consumer who wants to buy Welsh and British produce into purchasing something that is not what it says on the tin.

Yr wyf am bwysleisio o’r cychwyn nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig o blaid diffynnaeth. Credwn y dylai defnyddwyr fod yn rhydd i benderfynu eu hunain beth y maent yn ei brynu ac ymhle. Os ydynt am brynu bwyd a gynhyrchir mewn rhan arall o’r byd, yna mae ganddynt yr hawl i wneud hynny. Yr hyn y mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn ei wrthwynebu yw’r arferion labelu anonest sy’n gallu twyllo’r cwsmer sydd am brynu cynnyrch Cymreig a Phrydeinig i brynu rhywbeth sy’n wahanol i’r hyn sydd ar y tun.

There are plenty of examples from major supermarkets and food processors. There is a range of ready meals labelled as ‘Great

Mae yna ddigon o enghreifftiau gan y prif archfarchnadoedd a’r prif broseswyr bwyd. Mae yna gyfres o brydau parod gyda labeli

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British Menu’ that are made almost entirely from imported meat. Sandwiches are wrapped in packaging that has the union flag on it, when the contents of those sandwiches are South American. There are also items where the country of origin is made deliberately ambiguous, stating that they could be from the EU, Brazil or the UK and so on.

‘Great British Menu’ sydd wedi’u gwneud yn gyfan gwbl bron â chig wedi’i fewnforio. Mae brechdanau’n cael eu lapio mewn pecyn sy’n dangos baner yr undeb arno, er bod cynnwys y brechdanau hynny o Dde America. Mae yna eitemau hefyd lle mae’r wlad y tarddodd y bwyd ohoni yn fwriadol annelwig, a lle dywedir y gallent fod o’r UE, o Frasil neu o’r DU, ac ati.

Only last week, the Rural Development Sub-committee took evidence on this subject. My colleague, Alun Davies, chaired that committee meeting and heard the same evidence as the rest of us and I am sure that he will allude to this point, namely that a range of food and drinks, from poultry to cider, is marketed as being Welsh, when only the last step of processing takes place in Wales. All such dishonest practices chip away at the confidence of the consumer. The consumer deserves to be confident about the produce that they buy and that they can trust the information on the label.

Yr wythnos diwethaf clywodd yr Is-bwyllgor Datblygu Gwledig dystiolaeth am y mater hwn. Yr oedd fy nghyd-Aelod, Alun Davies, yn cadeirio cyfarfod y pwyllgor hwnnw a chlywodd yr un dystiolaeth â’r gweddill ohonom. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn crybwyll y pwynt hwn, sef bod amrywiaeth o fwydydd a diodydd, o ddofednod i seidr, yn cael eu marchnata fel cynnyrch o Gymru, er mai cam olaf y prosesu’n unig sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru. Mae pob arfer anonest o’r fath yn tanseilio ffydd y cwsmer. Mae’r cwsmer yn haeddu gallu bod yn hyderus yn y cynnyrch y mae’n ei brynu ac yn haeddu gallu ymddiried yn y wybodaeth ar y label.

This is not only about supporting our own producers because there is a genuine and substantial difference between food that has been grown in the UK and food that has been grown in other places in the world—

Nid mater o gefnogi ein cynhyrchwyr ni ein hunain yn unig yw hyn, oherwydd mae gwahaniaeth dilys a sylweddol rhwng bwyd sydd wedi’i dyfu yn y DU a bwyd sydd wedi’i dyfu mewn mannau eraill yn y byd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Er mwyn inni ddeall, mae geiriad y cynnig yn sôn am gefnogi’r ymgyrch dros ddangos y wlad y tarddodd y bwyd ohoni yn gliriach ar labeli. Felly, pan soniwch am label sy’n dangos yn gliriach y wlad y tarddodd y bwyd ohoni, pa wlad yn union y cyfeiriwch ati? A ydych yn cyfeirio at Gymru yn benodol neu a ydych yn dynodi’r Deyrnas Unedig fel gwlad?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: So that we can understand, the wording of the proposal refers to supporting the campaign for clearer labelling of the country of origin. Therefore, when you refer to a label which clearly shows the country of origin, which country are you referring to? Are you referring to Wales specifically, or are you designating the United Kingdom as a country?

Brynle Williams: Yr wyf yn ceisio tynnu sylw at labelu cynnyrch o Gymru a Phrydain Fawr—yr ydym yn byw ar yr un ynys. Tynnaf sylw at y ffaith fod y cynnyrch yn dod o wledydd eraill ond sy’n cael ei brosesu ym Mhrydain. Fodd bynnag, mae’r labeli’n dynodi mai cynnyrch Cymreig neu Brydeinig ydyw. A yw hynny’n ateb eich cwestiwn?

Brynle Williams: I am trying to draw attention to labelling produce from Wales and Great Britain—we live on one island. I emphasise the fact that produce comes from other countries but is processed in Britain. However, the labels state that it is Welsh or British produce. Does that answer your question?

Brynle Williams: This issue is most obvious with animal welfare. Farmers in Wales and the UK have to comply with some of the strictest regulations in the world, and rightly

Brynle Williams: Mae’r mater hwn ar ei amlycaf mewn cysylltiad â lles anifeiliaid. Rhaid i ffermwyr yng Nghymru ac yn y DU gydymffurfio â rhai o’r rheoliadau llymaf yn

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so. That is, after all, what the British public demands and expects. These regulations are also in place to protect public health.

y byd, ac mae hynny’n gwbl briodol. Wedi’r cyfan, dyna y mae’r cyhoedd ym Mhrydain yn ei fynnu ac yn ei ddisgwyl. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn ar waith hefyd er mwyn gwarchod iechyd y cyhoedd.

The Welsh Conservatives fully support the Farm Assured Welsh Livestock scheme, but the work and investment that goes into maintaining these high standards comes at a cost, which is barely recognised at the point of sale by a retailer. Far too often, Welsh and British meat get mixed in with produce from the rest of the world; they are placed in the same cabinets and have near identical packaging. I have seen that regularly. Imported food will often have been produced using methods that would be illegal here and such food is also coming out of the European community. Such illegal methods include intensive practices such as block calving and cramped conditions with minimum traceability.

Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn cefnogi’n llwyr gynllun Gwarant Fferm Da Byw Cymru, ond mae’r gwaith a’r buddsoddi a wneir er mwyn cynnal y safonau uchel hyn yn gostus, a phrin bod hynny’n cael ei gydnabod yn y man gwerthu gan fanwerthwr. Yn rhy aml o lawer, bydd cig o Gymru a Phrydain yn cael ei gymysgu â chig o weddill y byd; fe’u rhoddir yn yr un cypyrddau ac mae’r pecynnu fwy neu lai yr un fath â’i gilydd. Yr wyf wedi gweld hynny’n aml. Caiff bwyd wedi’i fewnforio yn ei gynhyrchu gan ddefnyddio dulliau a fyddai’n anghyfreithlon yma, ac mae bwyd o’r fath yn dod allan o’r gymuned Ewropeaidd heddiw. Mae dulliau anghyfreithlon felly yn cynnwys arferion dwys megis lloia bloc ac amgylchiadau cyfyng heb fawr o drefniadau olrhain.

The gravity of the situation is highlighted when retailers and processors dishonestly label imported food as British. No reputable retailer would present food as being organic if that food had not met the strictest requirements of the Soil Association. However, this is routinely the case regarding the country of origin and it cheats British consumers and producers alike. Our consumers deserve food labelling that is clear and honest. As the Conservative Party’s own research has shown, nine out of 10 consumers believe that ‘produced in the UK’ should mean that it was derived from an animal reared in the UK. A majority want to see clear country of origin labelling, and would be prepared to pay a modest premium to buy British. No progress will be made if retailers and processors are not brought on board with regards to the need for honest labelling so that best practice becomes the norm.

Mae difrifoldeb y sefyllfa’n fwy amlwg pan fydd manwerthwyr a phroseswyr yn labelu bwyd wedi’i fewnforio fel bwyd o Brydain. Ni fyddai’r un manwerthwr yn honni bod bwyd yn organig oni fyddai’r bwyd hwnnw wedi bodloni gofynion llymaf Cymdeithas y Pridd. Serch hynny, dyma sy’n digwydd yn rheolaidd o ran y wlad darddu, ac mae’n twyllo defnyddwyr a chynhyrchwyr fel ei gilydd ym Mhrydain. Mae ein defnyddwyr yn haeddu cael labeli clir a gonest ar fwyd. Fel y mae ymchwil y Blaid Geidwadol ei hun wedi ei ddangos, cred naw o bob 10 o ddefnyddwyr y dylai ‘cynhyrchwyd yn y DU’ olygu ei fod wedi deillio o anifail a fagwyd yn y DU. Mae mwyafrif am weld labeli clir sy’n dangos o ba wlad y mae’r bwyd wedi tarddu, a byddent yn barod i dalu premiwm bychan er mwyn prynu bwyd o Brydain. Ni fydd cynnydd oni lwyddir i ddarbwyllo manwerthwyr a phroseswyr fod angen labelu gonest er mwyn i’r arferion gorau ddod yn norm.

3.40 p.m.

I would say that there would certainly be a role in this for the proposed ombudsman, not just in relation to fresh produce, but the

Byddwn yn dweud y byddai rôl yn sicr i’r ombwdsmon arfaethedig yn hyn o beth, nid mewn cysylltiad â chynnyrch ffres yn unig,

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massive processed sector as well. I would hope that all Members would get behind the campaign for clear and honest country of origin labelling on our food, so that everyone who wants to buy Welsh and British food can do so, confident that they are not being deceived.

ond hefyd yn y sector enfawr ar gyfer bwyd wedi’i brosesu. Byddwn yn gobeithio y byddai pob Aelod yn cefnogi’r ymgyrch dros labelu clir a gonest sy’n dangos o ba wlad y mae ein bwyd wedi tarddu, er mwyn i bawb sy’n dymuno prynu bwyd o Gymru neu o Brydain allu gwneud hynny, yn hyderus nad ydynt yn cael eu twyllo.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu ‘yn cefnogi’r ymgyrch dros ddangos’ a rhoi ‘yn cefnogi dangos’ yn ei le.

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): I move amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete ‘the campaign for’.

Mick Bates: I move amendment 2 in the name of Peter Black. After ‘labelling’, insert:

Mick Bates: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Peter Black. Ar ôl ‘bwyd’, rhoi:

and urges the Welsh Government to examine the potential for a ‘Welsh food kitemark’ for food products produced, processed and packed in Wales.

ac yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i archwilio’r posibilrwydd o ‘nod barcud bwyd Cymru’ ar gyfer cynhyrchion bwyd sydd wedi’u cynhyrchu, eu prosesu a’u pacio yng Nghymru.

I will start by thanking Brynle for introducing this debate and by making it clear to the Chamber why I think that this is a fundamental issue. I will give you two examples of the issue at hand. When you go down the road to Asda and think that you have bought a bottle of Welsh milk, it may have been produced here, but it will have been processed and packed in the midlands, by a company called Arla Foods, and then brought back on a lorry to Asda in Cardiff and sold on the shelves as Welsh milk. I do not object to the fact that there is transport involved to that extent, but I object to the fact that we are not protecting our economy. We are not giving our Welsh producers a competitive advantage, which we could do by implementing a distinctive mark to tell customers, ‘This product was produced, processed and packed right here, in Wales’. I believe that it is about strengthening our economy and giving our producers a competitive advantage.

Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i Brynle am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon a’i gwneud yn glir i’r Siambr pam yr wyf yn meddwl bod hwn yn fater hollbwysig. Rhoddaf ddwy enghraifft ichi o’r mater dan sylw. Pan ewch i lawr y ffordd i Asda gan feddwl eich bod wedi prynu potel o laeth Cymru, efallai ei fod wedi’i gynhyrchu yma, ond bydd wedi ei brosesu a’i becynnu yng nghanolbarth Lloegr, gan gwmni o’r enw Arla Foods, ac yna bydd wedi’i gludo’n ôl ar lori i Asda yng Nghaerdydd a’i werthu ar y silffoedd fel llaeth Cymru. Nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu’r ffaith fod cludiant yn rhan o’r broses gymaint â hynny, ond gwrthwynebaf y ffaith nad ydym yn gwarchod ein heconomi. Nid ydym yn rhoi mantais gystadleuol i’n cynhyrchwyr yng Nghymru, mantais y gallem ei rhoi iddynt drwy ddefnyddio nod unigryw sy’n dweud wrth gwsmeriaid, ‘Cynhyrchwyd, proseswyd a phaciwyd y cynnyrch hwn yma, yng Nghymru’. Credaf fod a wnelo hyn â chryfhau ein heconomi a rhoi mantais gystadleuol i’n cynhyrchwyr.

The same is true of the other stores, by the way. If you go to Sainsbury’s or Morrisons, the milk may have been produced in Wales, but it is taken away and value is added to it in Gloucestershire, and it is then brought back to the stores in Wales. The same is true of Tesco milk: it is taken on a tanker to

Mae’r un peth yn wir am siopau eraill, gyda llaw. Os ewch i Sainsbury’s neu i Morrisons, efallai fod y llaeth wedi’i gynhyrchu yng Nghymru, ond caif ei gludo oddi yma ac ychwanegir gwerth ato yn Swydd Gaerloyw. Wedyn, caiff ei gludo’n ôl i’r siopau yng Nghymru. Mae’r un peth yn wir am laeth

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Bridgwater or Birmingham, where it is processed, put into a package, and sold as Welsh milk in Tesco. I know that that is free trade, but this debate today is all about giving our producers a competitive advantage.

Tesco: fe’i cludir ar dancer i Bridgwater neu i Birmingham, lle caiff i brosesu, ei becynnu a’i werthu fel llaeth Cymru yn Tesco. Gwn mai masnach rydd yw hynny, ond hanfod y ddadl hon heddiw yw rhoi mantais gystadleuol i’n cynhyrchwyr ni.

As Brynle mentioned, last week in the Rural Development Sub-committee, we heard some important evidence. There are rules and regulations that already govern and protect the status of many products throughout Europe and one of those is Welsh lamb, for example. It has been given a status that says that no-one else can sell lamb in Europe and call it Welsh. It has protected geographical indication status, which has been given to it by the European Union. There are rules and the rules allow the retailers to sell that milk as Welsh milk because it is produced here. However, there are also other anomalies, which were exposed by a witness, a Mr Burgess, in the evidence that we received last week. He produces eggs near Aberystwyth and he said that he went into a local supermarket and, within 10 minutes, had found six examples of products bearing the Welsh logo that had not been produced or packed in Wales. In fact, he went on to say during questioning that you could have bought eggs in a packet with a Welsh logo on it that could well have been imported from Spain. He even brought an example of that to the committee. Furthermore, he showed us an example of a packet of eggs from a company called Mr Welshegg that had been imported: they were produced in England, packed in England, but labelled ‘Mr Welshegg’, and sold here. I believe that these are matters for trading standards because they are complex. Nevertheless, I think that there are issues that we need to examine in Wales; we need to find out if it is possible, as put forward in our amendment, for there to be a Welsh kitemark for products that are produced and packed in Wales.

Fel y soniodd Brynle, yr wythnos diwethaf yn yr Is-bwyllgor Datblygu Gwledig, clywsom dystiolaeth bwysig. Mae yna reolau a rheoliadau sydd eisoes yn llywodraethu ac yn gwarchod statws llawer o gynnyrch ledled Ewrop, ac un o’r rheiny yw cig oen Cymru, er enghraifft. Mae statws wedi’i roi iddo sy’n dweud na chaiff neb arall werthu cig oen yn Ewrop a’i alw’n gig oen Cymru. Mae iddo statws dynodiad daearyddol gwarchodedig, a hwnnw wedi’i roi iddo gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae yna reolau ac mae’r rheolau’n caniatáu i’r manwerthwyr werthu’r llaeth hwnnw fel llaeth Cymru am ei fod yn cael ei gynhyrchu yma. Serch hynny, mae yna anghysonderau eraill hefyd, a ddatgelwyd gan dyst, gŵr o’r enw Mr Burgess, yn y dystiolaeth a gawsom yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae’n cynhyrchu wyau ger Aberystwyth. Dywedodd iddo fynd i archfarchnad leol, ac ymhen 10 munud daeth o hyd i chwe enghraifft o gynnyrch a logo Cymru arnynt er nad oeddent wedi’u cynhyrchu na’u pecynnu yng Nghymru. A dweud y gwir, aeth yn ei flaen i ddweud yn ystod yr holi y gallech fod wedi prynu wyau mewn pecyn a logo Cymru arno ond a allai’n hawdd fod wedi eu mewnforio o Sbaen. Daeth ag enghraifft o hynny i’r pwyllgor hyd yn oed. Yn ogystal, dangosodd enghraifft inni o becyn o wyau gan gwmni a elwir yn Mr Welshegg a oedd wedi’i fewnforio: fe’u cynhyrchwyd yn Lloegr, fe’u pecynnwyd yn Lloegr ond fe’u labelwyd yn ‘Mr Welshegg’, a’u gwerthu yma. Credaf fod y rhain yn faterion i adrannau safonau masnach oherwydd maent yn gymhleth. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod yma faterion y mae angen inni eu harchwilio yng Nghymru; mae angen inni gael gwybod a oes modd, fel y cynigir yn ein gwelliant, inni gael nod barcud Cymreig ar gyfer cynnyrch sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu a’i becynnu yng Nghymru.

There are other reasons for this as well. We, as Welsh Liberal Democrats, believe in securing sustainable food chains, reducing Britain’s impact on the environment and

Mae rhesymau eraill dros hyn hefyd. Yr ydym ni, Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, yn credu mewn sicrhau cadwyni bwyd cynaliadwy, gan leihau effaith Prydain ar yr

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increasing the consumption of local, safe and healthy food. International trade has trebled in the last 30 years. The amount of food that is brought in by air has gone up by nearly 400 per cent since 1992. Therefore, there are many arguments around sustainability that support producers carrying a kitemark that identifies their product as wholly Welsh.

amgylchedd a chynyddu faint o fwyd lleol, diogel ac iach sy’n cael ei fwyta. Mae masnach ryngwladol wedi treblu yn y 30 mlynedd diwethaf. Mae faint o fwyd sy’n cael ei fewnforio ar awyrennau wedi cynyddu bron 400 y cant er 1992. Felly, mae yna lawer o ddadleuon ynghylch cynaliadwyedd sy’n cefnogi cynhyrchwyr i ddefnyddio nod barcud i ddangos bod eu cynnyrch yn gyfan gwbl o Gymru.

Having country of origin labelling and a Welsh food kitemark for products and goods that are processed and packed in Wales would bring massive benefits to our economy and would encourage local food sourcing, which supports more effective production and enhances incomes. It would benefit the environment, conserve natural resources, and reduce food miles. For society as a whole, I believe that it would improve health, raise animal welfare standards and, in particular, strengthen our rural economies.

Byddai cael labelu gwlad y tarddiad a nod barcud Cymru ar nwyddau a chynnyrch sy’n cael eu prosesu a’u pecynnu yng Nghymru yn dod â manteision aruthrol i’n heconomi ac yn annog prynu bwyd lleol, sy’n cefnogi cynhyrchu mwy effeithiol ac yn cynyddu incwm. Byddai o fudd i’r amgylchedd, yn arbed adnoddau naturiol, ac yn lleihau milltiroedd bwyd. I gymdeithas gyfan, credaf y byddai’n gwella iechyd, yn codi safonau lles anifeiliaid, ac yn enwedig yn cryfhau ein heconomïau gwledig.

Therefore, I have no doubt that if the Government were to examine this, it would find good, rational reasons to adopt a Welsh food kitemark as outlined in my amendment. I call on you all to support the motion and our amendment.

Felly, nid oes gennyf ddim amheuaeth, petai’r Llywodraeth yn archwilio hyn, na ddeuai o hyd i resymau da, synhwyrol dros fabwysiadu nod barcud ar gyfer bwyd Cymru fel yr amlinellir yn fy ngwelliant. Galwaf arnoch i gyd i gefnogi’r cynnig a’n gwelliant.

Angela Burns: I thank Brynle Williams for bringing forward this motion and Mick Bates for moving the Liberal Democrat amendment. I will pick up one of Brynle’s points. It would be terribly sad if these proposals were voted out simply because the motion has been brought forward by the Conservatives and amendment 2 by the Liberal Democrats. This is about doing what our customers, the people out there, want, and doing animal welfare in the United Kingdom a great service and ensuring clarity, which we all say that we seek in Government.

Angela Burns: Diolch i Brynle Williams am ddod â’r cynnig hwn gerbron ac i Mick Bates am gynnig gwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr wyf am godi un o bwyntiau Brynle. Byddai’n ofnadwy o drist pe pleidleisid yn erbyn y cynigion hyn dim ond oherwydd iddynt gael eu cyflwyno gan y Ceidwadwyr, a gwelliant 2 gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mater yw hyn o wneud yr hyn y mae ein cwsmeriaid, y bobl allan acw, yn ei ddymuno, a gwneud cymwynas fawr â lles anifeiliaid yn y Deyrnas Unedig a sicrhau eglurder, ac yr ydym i gyd yn dweud ein bod yn ceisio hynny mewn Llywodraeth.

I wish to raise a few topics, the first of which is the madness of the different standards of welfare. Some 70 per cent of all pork, ham and bacon that is sold in this country originates from places where welfare standards are significantly lower than those of the UK. I admit that I am fairly squeamish: I like to know that the dead animal that has

Hoffwn godi ambell bwnc, a’r cyntaf yw gwallgofrwydd y gwahanol safonau lles. Mae tua 70 y cant o’r holl borc, ham a bacwn a werthir yn y wlad hon yn tarddu o leoedd lle mae safonau lles yn sylweddol is na safonau’r Deyrnas Unedig. Cyfaddefaf fy mod yn eithaf cysetlyd: yr wyf yn hoffi gwybod bod yr anifail marw a gynhyrchodd y

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produced the meat that I eat had a decent life, was in good health, was not full of horrible chemicals and tons of antibiotics—and that the meat is not full of nasty additives—and that it was killed humanely. I would rather eat less meat and it be of good quality than lots and lots of cheap stuff, and I feel the same about what my children eat, too. You might ask, ‘Do people really want that?’, and the answer is ‘yes’. The Women’s Institute conducted an enormous survey—many organisations have conducted such surveys—that brought out the fact that people are looking for clarity.

cig yr wyf yn ei fwyta wedi cael bywyd da, ei fod mewn iechyd da, nad oedd yn llawn cemegau afiach a thunelli o wrthfiotigau—ac nad yw’r cig yn llawn ychwanegion ffiaidd—ac y cafodd ei ladd mewn modd trugarog. Byddai’n well gennyf fwyta llai o gig a bod hwnnw o ansawdd da na bwyta digonedd o stwff rhad, a theimlaf yr un fath am yr hyn y bydd fy mhlant yn ei fwyta, hefyd. Gallech ofyn, ‘A oes ar bobl eisiau hynny’n wirioneddol?’, a’r ateb yw ‘oes’. Cynhaliodd Sefydliad y Merched arolwg enfawr—mae nifer o sefydliadau wedi cynnal arolygon o’r fath—a oedd yn pwysleisio’r ffaith fod pobl yn edrych am eglurder.

We want honest food. We want to know where it comes from and how it has been made, and we want to understand this labelling. We do not want to eat a pork pie that is made up of bits and pieces that have come from everywhere.

Mae arnom eisiau bwyd gonest. Mae arnom eisiau gwybod o ble y mae’n dod a sut y cafodd ei wneud, ac mae arnom eisiau deall y labelu hwn. Nid oes arnom eisiau bwyta pastai borc wedi’i gwneud o dameidiau sydd wedi dod o bobman.

A key cry at the moment is, ‘Let’s have a sustainable way of living and a sustainable future’. How unsustainable is it to carry on importing meat from abroad of a significantly lower quality and where the farmers that are raising the cattle, pigs and so on have a far less healthy way of life? That is not sustainable; it is a case of ‘I’m all right Jack’, and leaving it at that.

Galwad allweddol ar hyn o bryd yw ‘Gadewch inni gael ffordd gynaliadwy o fyw a dyfodol cynaliadwy’. Pa mor anghynaladwy yw parhau i fewnforio cig o dramor o ansawdd sylweddol is, a lle mae ffordd o fyw y ffermwyr sy’n magu’r gwartheg, y moch ac ati yn llai iach o lawer? Nid yw hynny’n gynaliadwy; mae hynny cystal â dweud ‘Yr wyf fi’n iawn, wfft i bawb arall’, a’i gadael hi ar hynny.

We support the Liberal Democrat’s amendment proposing having a kitemark, because we need to be able to stamp exactly what our food is and where it comes from.

Yr ydym yn cefnogi gwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol sy’n cynnig cael nod barcud, oherwydd mae angen inni allu stampio’n union beth yw ein bwyd ac o ble y daw.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: You have referred more than once to clarity. The motion refers to a campaign and, therefore, presumably, the campaign exists. I asked Brynle what that campaign represents. Is it a campaign to establish the country of origin as Wales or to establish the country of origin as the United Kingdom? Before we can decide how to respond to this motion, we need to know what you are calling on us to support.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr ydych wedi cyfeirio fwy nag unwaith at eglurder. Mae’r cynnig yn cyfeirio at ymgyrch, ac felly mae’n debyg fod yr ymgyrch yn bodoli. Holais Brynle beth y mae’r ymgyrch honno’n ei gynrychioli. Ai ymgyrch ydyw i sefydlu mai Cymru yw gwlad y tarddiad ynteu sefydlu mai’r Deyrnas Unedig yw gwlad y tarddiad? Cyn y gallwn benderfynu sut i ymateb i’r cynnig hwn, mae arnom angen gwybod beth yr ydych yn galw arnom i’w gefnogi.

Angela Burns: I will repeat what Brynle has already told you. I do not mind whether it is Wales or the United Kingdom, or whether the

Angela Burns: Ailadroddaf yr hyn y mae Brynle eisoes wedi’i ddweud wrthych. Nid oes ots gennyf fi ai Cymru ynteu’r Deyrnas

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piece of meat that I am about to eat has been raised and killed in Scotland, Lincolnshire or Aberystwyth. What I have a problem with is somebody putting on a piece of meat ‘Produced in Britain’ when it comes from Brazil, the Netherlands, or heaven only knows where. That is what we are seeking to address.

Unedig ydyw, nac a yw’r darn o gig yr wyf ar fin ei fwyta wedi’i fagu a’i ladd yn yr Alban, yn Swydd Lincoln ynteu yn Aberystwyth. Yr hyn sy’n peri problem i mi yw bod rhywun yn rhoi’r geiriau ‘Gwnaethpwyd ym Mhrydain’ ar ddarn o gig, o hwnnw’n dod o Frasil, neu’r Iseldiroedd, neu Duw a ŵyr ble. Dyna yr ydym yn ceisio’i gywiro.

3.50 p.m.

I suspect that your ideological problem with our motion is to do with the fact that there is a campaign. It was started by the Conservatives, and it has been taken up by the Women’s Food and Farming Union, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, NFU Cymru, the British Poultry Council, and the National Pig Association. How many people do we need to make the campaign everybody’s campaign? This is not just about the Conservatives; we want—

Yr wyf yn amau bod a wnelo’ch problem ideolegol â’n cynnig ni â’r ffaith fod ymgyrch yn bodoli. Fe’i cychwynnwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr, ac ymunwyd â hi gan Undeb Bwyd a Ffermio’r Menywod, y Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Atal Creulondeb i Anifeiliaid, NFU Cymru, Cyngor Dofednod Prydain a’r Gymdeithas Foch Genedlaethol. Faint o bobl y mae eu hangen i wneud yr ymgyrch yn ymgyrch pawb? Nid rhywbeth i’r Ceidwadwyr yn unig yw hyn; mae arnom eisiau—

Alun Davies: Will you give way? Alun Davies: A wnewch chi ildio?

Angela Burns: I am sorry, Alun, but I have just looked at the clock and I do not have time. I will sum this up for those who are not listening. We want to empower customers. We want an end to misleading packaging. We want to support British producers. We want to promote superior British and Welsh produce. We want to bring honesty and integrity and truthfulness to how meat is sold to restore trust and confidence in British food and British food labelling. I ask you consider this motion.

Angela Burns: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Alun, ond yr wyf newydd edrych ar y cloc ac nid oes gennyf amser. Crynhoaf hyn i’r rhai nad ydynt yn gwrando. Mae arnom eisiau rhoi grym i gwsmeriaid. Mae arnom eisiau rhoi terfyn ar becynnu camarweiniol. Mae arnom eisiau hyrwyddo cynnyrch o safon uwch o Brydain ac o Gymru. Mae arnom eisiau dod â gonestrwydd a chywirdeb a geirwiredd i’r modd y gwerthir cig er mwyn adfer ymddiriedaeth a hyder ym mwyd Prydain a labelu bwyd Prydain. Gofynnaf ichi ystyried y cynnig hwn.

Joyce Watson: Clear food labelling is crucial to consumer confidence, and clear, easily understood labelling allows consumers to make informed decisions about the food that they eat, about where it comes from, and about what is in it. It also protects consumers against deliberate attempts by manufacturers and retailers to dupe them into buying food that is presented as something that it is not. If not mutton dressed as lamb, it is perhaps Brazilian dressed as British.

Joyce Watson: Mae labelu bwyd yn glir yn hollbwysig i hyder cwsmeriaid, ac mae labeli clir, hawdd eu deall yn caniatáu i gwsmeriaid wneud penderfyniadau gwybodus am y bwyd a fwytânt, o ble y daw, a beth sydd ynddo. Mae’n gwarchod cwsmeriaid hefyd rhag ymdrechion bwriadol gan wneuthurwyr a manwerthwyr i’w twyllo i brynu bwyd a gyflwynir fel rhywbeth nad ydyw. Os nad hen ddafad yng ngwisg oen, yna Brasiliad, efallai, mewn gwisg Brydeinig.

In bringing forward this debate, the Tories are on safe ground. I think that we would all agree that a country of origin label would

Wrth gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, mae’r Torïaid ar dir diogel. Credaf y byddem i gyd yn cytuno y byddai label gwlad y tarddiad o fudd i

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benefit Welsh consumers and Welsh farmers, producers and food manufacturers. However, I question how committed the Tories are to achieving anything beyond populist sentiment. I say that because legislation governing food labelling is agreed in Europe, and any country of origin scheme would have to be negotiated through the European Commission. I am proud to be a member of the Labour Party, which has consistently fought for Welsh interests, including stricter rules on food labelling in Europe. The Tory party, however, seems intent on withdrawing to the outermost fringes of European politics. This week, David Cameron came under fierce criticism from Europe for his decision to ditch mainstream conservatism in the EU in order to lead a new movement of right-wing Eurosceptics.

gwsmeriaid Cymru a ffermwyr, cynhyrchwyr a gwneuthurwyr bwyd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf pa mor ymroddedig yw’r Torïaid i gyflawni dim mwy na sentiment poblyddol. Dywedaf hynny oherwydd cytunir ar y ddeddfwriaeth ynghylch labelu bwyd yn Ewrop, a byddai’n rhaid llywio unrhyw gynllun i nodi gwlad y tarddiad drwy’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Yr wyf yn falch o fod yn aelod o’r Blaid Lafur, sydd wedi ymladd yn gyson dros fuddiannau Cymru, gan gynnwys rheolau caethach ar labelu bwyd yn Ewrop. Mae’r Blaid Dorïaidd, fodd bynnag, fel petai a’i bryd ar gilio i ymylon eithaf gwleidyddiaeth Ewrop. Yr wythnos hon, beirniadwyd David Cameron yn hallt gan Ewrop am ei benderfyniad i roi’r gorau i geidwadaeth prif ffrwd yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd er mwyn arwain mudiad newydd o Ewrosgeptiaid adain dde.

Alun Cairns: Will you give way? Alun Cairns: A wnewch chi ildio?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Joyce Watson is not giving way.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Nid yw Joyce Watson yn ildio.

Joyce Watson: I wonder what the Tories here hope to achieve for the Welsh farming industry with this ridiculous, self-imposed isolation with regard to Europe. That said, as Labour’s rural affairs spokesperson, I believe that clear labelling, stating the country of origin of major ingredients would benefit the Welsh producer and consumers. Therefore, Minister, what assessment have you made of the European Commission’s recent decision to reject a proposal from the Irish Government for mandatory country of origin labelling for meat and meat products? Where does this leave Wales?

Joyce Watson: Tybed beth y mae’r Torïaid yma’n gobeithio’i gyflawni dros ddiwydiant ffermio Cymru gyda’r hunan-ynysu chwerthinllyd hwn yn Ewrop? Wedi dweud hynny, fel llefarydd Llafur ar faterion gwledig, credaf y byddai labelu clir, yn nodi gwlad tarddiad prif gynhwysion, yn fuddiol i gynhyrchwyr a chwsmeriaid Cymru. Felly, Weinidog, pa asesiad yr ydych wedi’i wneud o benderfyniad y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn ddiweddar i wrthod cynnig gan Lywodraeth Iwerddon y dylid gorfodi gosod gwlad y tarddiad ar gig a chynnyrch cig? Ble mae hyn yn gadael Cymru?

Returning to my earlier point about attempts to dupe consumers, that is often done using marketing and packaging, rather than labelling, for example, by using a Welsh flag to market food sourced from another country or by using spurious definitions, such as ‘fresh’, to deliberately mislead the consumer. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us what she is doing to clamp down on those practices.

I ddychwelyd at fy mhwynt cynharach ynghylch ceisio twyllo cwsmeriaid, gwneir hynny’n aml wrth farchnata a phecynnu, yn hytrach na labelu drwy ddefnyddio baner Cymru, er enghraifft, i farchnata bwyd sy’n tarddu o wlad arall neu drwy ddefnyddio diffiniadau annilys, fel ‘ffres’, i gamarwain y cwsmer yn fwriadol. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Gweinidog ddweud wrthym beth y mae’n ei wneud i roi terfyn ar yr arferion hynny.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for allowing me the

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, am ganiatáu imi’r cyfle i siarad yn y

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opportunity to speak in the debate. It is a pleasure to do so, being a farmer and someone who has championed this cause for many years. I can vividly remember the launch of the red tractor logo in the early 2000s, when many people did not consider labelling relevant to marketing food produce. Indeed, in the mid 1990s, when the farm assurance scheme came into being, many in the industry questioned the need to label food in such a way. To be fair, the industry has now responded to consumers to the fullest of its ability to market and label food to show its origin. Every survey indicates that that is what consumers want to know. They want to know more about the produce that they are purchasing so that they can make an informed choice.

ddadl. Mae’n bleser gwneud hynny, a minnau’n ffermwr ac yn un sydd wedi pleidio’r achos hwn ers blynyddoedd lawer. Cofiaf yn iawn lansio logo’r tractor coch ym mlynyddoedd cyntaf y ganrif hon, pan oedd llawer o bobl heb ystyried bod labelu’n berthnasol i farchnata cynnyrch bwyd. Yn wir, ganol yr 1990au, pan ddaeth y cynllun gwarant ffermydd i fodolaeth, cwestiynwyd yr angen am labelu bwyd yn y fath fodd gan lawer yn y diwydiant. I fod yn deg, mae’r diwydiant bellach wedi ymateb i gwsmeriaid hyd eithaf ei allu i farchnata a labelu bwyd i ddangos ei darddle. Mae pob arolwg yn dangos mai dyna y mae defnyddwyr am ei wybod. Mae arnynt eisiau gwybod mwy am y cynnyrch y maent yn ei brynu er mwyn gallu dewis yn ddoeth.

I commend the industry on its efforts with the red tractor logo and the farm assurance scheme, but it is now for the Government to move the agenda forward. It should do that through dialogue with our European partners, but also through what it can do within the parameters of current legislation in the United Kingdom and the promotional activity that the Welsh Assembly Government can undertake. We do not believe that it would be anti-competitive—we believe that it would inform consumer choice. Surely we would all subscribe to increasing the power of the consumer to make an informed choice. In Wales, we have many of the best aspects of agricultural production, not just in meat production but in arable and vegetable production. It is confusing that when consumers go to make a choice—it is their money that they are spending—they are unable to receive the key piece of information that would allow them to purchase the goods that they and their family would want, after they have ascertained the other pieces of information that they receive having gone round the supermarket.

Cymeradwyaf y diwydiant ar ei ymdrechion gyda logo’r tractor coch a’r cynllun gwarant ffermydd, ond mater i’r Llywodraeth yn awr yw symud yr agenda ymlaen. Dylai wneud hynny drwy ddeialog gyda’n partneriaid yn Ewrop, ond hefyd drwy’r hyn y gall ei wneud o fewn paramedrau deddfwriaeth gyfredol yn y Deyrnas Unedig a’r gweithgaredd hyrwyddo y gall Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ymgymryd ag ef. Ni chredwn y byddai’n wrth-gystadleuol—credwn y byddai’n rhoi sylfaen i ddewis y cwsmer. Siawns na fyddem i gyd o blaid cynyddu grym y cwsmer i ddewis yn ddoeth? Yng Nghymru mae gennym lawer o agweddau gorau cynhyrchu amaethyddol, nid o ran cynhyrchu cig yn unig, ond o ran cynhyrchu cnydau âr a llysiau. Mae’n peri dryswch, pan aiff cwsmeriaid i wneud dewis—eu harian eu hunain yw’r arian y maent yn ei wario—na allant gael y darn allweddol o wybodaeth a fyddai’n caniatáu iddynt brynu’r nwyddau y byddent hwy a’u teulu am eu cael, ar ôl iddynt ddarganfod y darnau eraill o wybodaeth a gânt wedi mynd o gwmpas yr archfarchnad.

That is what the honest food campaign is about—delivering information to the consumer—and I am amazed that the Government is unable to support it. The NFU and legal experts in the field of European legislation believe that the powers already reside within the United Kingdom to allow a more protective scheme to ensure that the investments that farmers in particular have

Dyna yw byrdwn yr ymgyrch honest food—rhoi gwybodaeth i’r cwsmer—ac mae’n destun syndod i mi nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn gallu ei chefnogi. Mae’r NFU ac arbenigwyr cyfreithiol ym maes deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yn credu bod y pwerau eisoes yn bodoli yn y Deyrnas Unedig i ganiatáu cynllun mwy gwarchodol, er mwyn sicrhau y gellir cyfiawnhau’r buddsoddiadau y mae

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made in farm assurance schemes, and the investment that processing companies have made in bringing higher-end value products to the marketplace, can be justified.

ffermwyr yn enwedig wedi’u gwneud mewn cynlluniau gwarant ffermydd, a’r buddsoddiad gan gwmnïau prosesu i ddod â chynnyrch o’r gwerth uchaf i’r farchnad.

It defeats the purpose of farm assurance schemes and other measures when that competitive edge is taken away by third country imports. At the moment, we have a respite from that because of the sanctions that have been placed on Brazilian and South American imports as a result of traceability. People perceived that the previous systems for South American beef were, sadly, not robust enough to meet the requirements in the United Kingdom and the European Union. I fail to see why the Government in its amendment is not prepared to support the honest food campaign, given the sentiments expressed by consumers and retailers and given that it would realise their aspirations and provide what everyone is asking for.

Mae’n mynd yn groes i bwrpas cynlluniau gwarant ffermydd a mesurau eraill pan gaiff y fantais gystadleuol honno ei dileu gan fewnforion o wledydd eraill. Ar hyn o bryd mae saib yn hynny oherwydd y sancsiynau sydd ar fewnforion o Frasil a De America oherwydd y gallu i olrhain. Gwelai pobl nad oedd y systemau blaenorol ar gyfer cig eidion o Dde America, ysywaeth, yn ddigon cadarn i ateb y gofynion yn y Deyrnas Unedig a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Ni allaf weld pam nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn ei gwelliant yn barod i gefnogi’r ymgyrch honest food, o gofio’r teimladau a fynegir gan gwsmeriaid a manwerthwyr ac o ystyried y byddai’n cyflawni eu dyheadau hwy ac yn darparu’r hyn y mae pawb yn gofyn amdano.

Mick referred to the ability to have confidence in the origin of milk, for example, and, being a former dairy farmer, I am very much aware that many supermarkets source their milk in Wales but take it to England for processing. That is part of the United Kingdom aspect of food production, and there is nothing wrong with that; what is wrong is the difficulty faced by the consumer in seeking find out how that bottle of milk or carton of cream arrived on the shelf. A colleague went into a local Tesco store the other day to try to ascertain from where the goods that that colleague had purchased had come from, but, sadly, that information was not available, despite best intentions.

Cyfeiriodd Mick at y gallu i fod yn hyder ynglŷn â tharddiad llaeth, er enghraifft, ac fel cyn ffermwr llaeth yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn fod nifer o archfarchnadoedd yn cael eu llaeth o Gymru ond yn mynd ag ef i Loegr i’w brosesu. Mae hynny’n rhan o agwedd y Deyrnas Unedig ar brosesu bwyd, ac nid oes dim o’i le ar hynny. Yr hyn sydd o’i le yw’r anhawster sy’n wynebu’r cwsmer wrth geisio gweld sut y daeth y botel laeth honno neu’r carton hufen hwnnw i fod ar y silff. Aeth cyfaill i siop Tesco leol y dydd o’r blaen i geisio gweld o ble y daethai’r nwyddau yr oedd wedi’u prynu, ond, ysywaeth, nid oedd yr wybodaeth honno ar gael, er gwaethaf pob bwriad da.

We heard in questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs that she is committed to country of origin labelling, and that she is in dialogue with the UK Minister, Hilary Benn. We have heard time and again from Hilary Benn that he thinks that the current regulations are unsatisfactory. Between the two of you, you have the power to make a significant change so that consumers’ aspirations can be met. I call upon the Minister not to just use soft words, but to put the energy of the Government behind the honest food campaign in order to deliver for the agricultural community and the consumers of the United Kingdom and Wales

Clywsom mewn cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig ei bod wedi ymrwymo i labelu gwlad y tarddiad, a’i bod yn trafod gyda Gweinidog y Deyrnas Unedig, Hilary Benn. Clywsom dro ar ôl tro gan Hilary Benn ei fod yn credu bod y rheoliadau presennol yn anfoddhaol. Rhyngoch chi’ch dau, mae gennych y grym i sicrhau newid sylweddol, fel y gellir ateb dyheadau cwsmeriaid. Galwaf ar y Gweinidog i wneud mwy na defnyddio geiriau diniwed, sef rhoi egni’r Llywodraeth y tu ôl i’r ymgyrch honest food er lles y gymuned amaethyddol a chwsmeriaid y Deyrnas Unedig a Chymru—nid wyf yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y Deyrnas

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—I do not discriminate between the United Kingdom and Wales; we are one and the same, and we are stronger by being part of that union.

Unedig a Chymru; yr ydym yn un, ac yr ydym yn gryfach o fod yn rhan o’r undeb hwnnw.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr ydym yn awr yn glir am yr hyn yw’r ymgyrch hon. Nid yw’n unig yn ymgyrch i atal cynnyrch o wledydd eraill rhag cael eu disgrifio fel cynnyrch o’r Deyrnas Unedig neu Gymru. Yr ydym oll yn cytuno â hynny. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod y Gweinidog yn teimlo’n gryf am y mater hwn, ac yr wyf wedi ymgyrchu gyda hi dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf ar faterion o’r fath er mwyn sicrhau nad oes bwydydd o wledydd eraill, yn enwedig gwledydd lle yr ydym yn amheus o’r safonau glendid a diogelwch a ddefnyddir, yn cael eu labelu fel cynnyrch o’r Deyrnas Unedig a Chymru.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: We are now clear about what this campaign is all about. It is not only about preventing produce from other countries from being described as produce from the United Kingdom or Wales. We all agree with that. I am aware that the Minister feels strongly on this matter, and I have campaigned with her over the past 10 years on matters of this kind to ensure that foods from other countries, particularly countries where the standards of hygiene and food safety are a little dubious, are not labelled as produce from the United Kingdom and Wales.

4.00 p.m.

Fodd bynnag, mae problem gyda’r hyn yr ydych yn ei awgrymu. Yn y lle cyntaf, a yw’r ymgyrch hon wedi’i hanelu at y Gweinidog yma neu at y Gweinidog yn San Steffan, Hilary Benn? Nid ydym wedi cael eglurhad o hynny. O’r hyn yr wyf wedi’i glywed am eich ymgyrch, tybiaf nad yw am gynnyrch o Gymru yn benodol.

However, there is a problem with what you suggest. Firstly, is this campaign directed towards the Minister here or to the Minister at Westminster, Hilary Benn? We have not been given clarification on that. From what I have heard about your campaign, I suspect that it is not about produce from Wales specifically.

A minnau’n Aelod sy’n cynrychioli ardal wledig lle ceir diwydiant amaethyddol cryf, yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu sefyllfa lle mae cynnyrch—

As a Member who represents a rural area with a strong agricultural industry, I am opposed to a situation where produce from Wales—

Brynle Williams: On that very point, this is our Welsh Government, is it not? We must start somewhere, and I am starting this debate here by asking my Minister to continue to put pressure on Hilary Benn in London and on partners on this. You may argue whether that is right or wrong, but we are starting from this point, here, today. That is why I hope that you will change your mind and support us.

Brynle Williams: Ar yr union bwynt hwnnw, onid hon yw ein Llywodraeth Gymreig? Rhaid inni ddechrau rywle, ac yr wyf yn agor y ddadl hon drwy ofyn i fy Ngweinidog ddal ati i roi pwysau ar Hilary Benn yn Llundain ac ar bartneriaid ynghylch hyn. Gallwch ddadlau a yw hynny’n gywir ai peidio, ond dyna’r man cychwyn i ni, yma, heddiw. Dyna pam yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwch yn newid eich meddwl ac yn ein cefnogi.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Ac ateb yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud, Brynle, nid yw’r cynnig yn gofyn i’r Gweinidog gynnal trafodaethau gyda Hilary Benn am y mater hwn; mae’n gofyn iddi ddatgan ei chefnogaeth lwyr i’r ymgyrch. Gwn fod y Gweinidog eisoes yn cael y trafodaethau hyn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: To respond to what you have just said, Brynle, the proposal does not ask the Minister to have discussions with Hilary Benn on this issue; it asks her to declare her full support for the campaign. I know the Minister is already having these discussions. She has committed in the past—

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Mae wedi ymrwymo yn y gorffennol—ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn gwneud eto y prynhawn yma—i wneud popeth o fewn ei gallu i hyrwyddo cynnyrch o Gymru a sicrhau na ellir camlabelu cynnyrch o dramor gan greu camargraff ym meddyliau’r cyhoedd. Os nad ydych yn credu bod cynhyrchwyr yn ogystal â chwsmeriaid yn poeni bod cynnyrch o’r tu allan i Gymru yn cael ei labelu fel cynnyrch o Gymru, gofynnwch i’r gŵr sy’n rhan o’r diwydiant cynhyrchu wyau ger Aberystwyth a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor, a chyfeiriodd Mick Bates ato hefyd. Yr oedd yn teimlo’n eithriadol o gryf bod cynnyrch o’r tu allan i Gymru yn dod i Gymru gydag awgrym cryf ar y label ei fod yn gynnyrch o Gymru.

and I am sure she will do so again this afternoon—to do everything within her power to promote produce from Wales and to ensure that foreign produce cannot be mislabelled, thereby creating a misleading impression in the minds of the public. If you do not believe that producers as well as consumers are concerned that produce from outside Wales is being labelled as produce from Wales, ask the man from near Aberystwyth who works in the egg industry, and who gave evidence to the committee. Mick Bates also referred to him. He felt extremely strongly about the fact that produce from outside Wales is coming to Wales with a strong suggestion on the label that it is produce from Wales.

Fel yr oeddwn ar fin ei ddweud pan gododd Brynle, i bobl yn sir Gaerfyrddin, mae’r disgrifiad ‘menyn sir Gaerfyrddin’ yn rhoi’r argraff ei fod yn cynnwys cynnyrch o sir Gaerfyrddin ac yn dod, y byddai rhywun yn tybio, o ddyffryn Tywi ac wedi’i brosesu yn sir Gaerfyrddin. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna’r gwir. Mae label Cadog yn cyfeirio at Langadog, gan awgrymu’n gryf ei fod yn dod o ddyffryn Tywi, ond y gwir amdani yw nad yw’r cynnyrch hwnnw’n cael ei gynhyrchu yn sir Gaerfyrddin ychwaith, na hyd yn oed yng Nghymru. Os ydym am hyrwyddo cynnyrch o Gymru, fel y mae’r Gweinidog a’i hadran eisoes yn ei wneud, mae’n eithriadol o bwysig ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar sicrhau bod premiwm ar gynnyrch o Gymru, gan ei fod wedi cael ei gynhyrchu mewn cyd-destun diwydiant sy’n cyrraedd y safonau cynhyrchu uchaf posibl. Mae’n eithriadol o bwysig nad oes dim yn digwydd i danseilio ein gallu i farchnata a gwerthu cynnyrch penodedig o Gymru, fel y gellir adnabod ein diwydiant yn un sy’n cynhyrchu i’r safonau uchaf posibl.

As I was about to say before Brynle’s intervention, to people in Carmarthenshire the description ‘Carmarthenshire butter’ gives the impression that it contains produce from Carmarthenshire, that it comes, one would suspect, from the Tywi valley, and that it had been processed in Carmarthenshire. However, that is not the case. The Cadog label refers to Llangadog, which strongly suggests that its products come from the Tywi valley. But the fact of the matter is that its products are not produced in Carmarthenshire either, or even in Wales. If we are to promote Welsh products, as the Minister and her department are already doing, it is extremely important that we concentrate on ensuring that there is a premium on Welsh produce, given that it has been produced in an industry that meets the highest possible production standards. It is vital that nothing be done to undermine our ability to market and to sell specifically Welsh produce, so that our industry is recognised as one that produces to the highest possible standards.

Nid wyf eisiau clymu dwylo’r Gweinidog ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn gwbl hyderus y bydd hi’n cynnal y trafodaethau hyn ac yn gwneud popeth o fewn ei gallu ac o fewn rheolau Ewrop i sicrhau bod cynnyrch o Gymru yn cael ei labelu’n glir a’i hyrwyddo, ac nad oes camlabelu yn digwydd.

I do not wish to tie the Minister’s hands at the moment. I am entirely confident that she will have these discussions and that she will do everything within her power, and within European regulations, to ensure that Welsh produce is clearly labelled and promoted, and that it is not misrepresented.

Darren Millar: It is a pleasure to contribute to this important debate, and it has been good to hear the contributions made by Members

Darren Millar: Mae’n bleser cael cyfrannu at y ddadl bwysig hon. Mae wedi bod yn braf gwrando ar y cyfraniadau a wnaed gan

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so far. It has been well balanced—for the most part, in any case. I particularly appreciated Brynle’s contribution. As a farmer, he knows only too well the need to support our agriculture industry, perhaps now more than ever. We must not take our attention away from supporting that industry, just because the value of the pound has fallen against the euro, with all the benefits that that has brought to our Welsh economy. It is easy to say that farmers are doing better now and need less support, but that is not the case. One way of improving their opportunities in the future is by using food labelling to enable them to benefit from the high-quality produce that they bring to the market.

Aelodau hyd yma. Mae wedi bod yn gytbwys—ar y cyfan, beth bynnag. Yr oeddwn yn gwerthfawrogi cyfraniad Brynle yn arbennig. Fel ffermwr, mae’n deall bod angen cefnogi’n diwydiant amaethyddol, yn awr yn fwy nag erioed, efallai. Rhaid inni beidio â thynnu ein sylw oddi ar ein cefnogaeth i’r diwydiant hwn, oherwydd bod gwerth y bunt wedi gostwng yn erbyn yr ewro, a’r holl fuddiannau sydd wedi dod i economi Cymru yn sgil hynny. Mae’n ddigon hawdd dweud bod ffermwyr yn gwneud yn well yn awr a bod angen llai o gymorth arnynt, ond nid yw hynny’n wir. Un ffordd i wella’r cyfleoedd iddynt yn y dyfodol yw drwy ddefnyddio labeli bwyd i’w galluogi i elwa o’r cynnyrch o safon uchel y maent yn ei roi ar y farchnad.

I thought that Joyce Watson made some sense for a change—at the start of her contribution, anyway—when talking about the importance of food labelling. She then went horribly wrong when she tried to slate the Conservatives’ record on this subject. She has to remember that we have consistently argued for improved food labelling in the United Kingdom, and there have been five debates in the House of Commons brought forward under private Members’ Bills from Conservative MPs. None has been brought forward by the Labour Party, and each of them was voted down by the UK Labour Party, so we will take no lectures from your party on our support for food labelling. We feel passionately about this, which is why we have tabled this motion for debate today.

Yr oeddwn yn credu bod Joyce yn gwneud rhywfaint o synnwyr am unwaith—ar ddechrau ei chyfraniad, beth bynnag—wrth sôn am bwysigrwydd labelu bwyd. Yna aeth pethau o chwith yn ddifrifol pan geisiodd bardduo record y Ceidwadwyr ar y pwnc. Rhaid iddi gofio ein bod wedi dadlau’n gyson o blaid gwella labelu bwyd yn y Deyrnas Unedig, a chafwyd pum dadl yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin wedi’u cyflwyno fel Mesurau Aelod Preifat gan Aelodau Seneddol Ceidwadol. Ni ddaethpwyd ag un gerbron y Tŷ gan y Blaid Lafur, a threchwyd pob un ohonynt mewn pleidlais gan Blaid Lafur y DU. Felly, nid ydym yn barod i wrando ar bregethau gan eich plaid chi ar ein cefnogaeth i labelu bwyd. Yr ydym yn teimlo’n gryf iawn am hyn, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r cynnig hwn i’w drafod heddiw.

It is ridiculous that certain products are labelled ‘British’ or ‘Welsh’ when there is no way that anyone in their right mind could justify those claims. One thing is for sure: there is cross-party agreement on this issue, within and without the Chamber. Angela Burns listed a good number of organisations that are calling for the support of the Assembly Government for this campaign, and I am disappointed to see that the Government has tabled an amendment to delete the words ‘the campaign for’ from the motion. It seems pedantic, I must say, and there ought to be a change of heart on that. Let us hope that there is, when it comes to the vote.

Mae’n hurt fod rhai nwyddau’n cael eu labelu fel rhai ‘Prydeinig’ neu ‘Gymreig’ pan nad oes ffordd yn y byd y gallai neb yn ei iawn bwyll gyfiawnhau’r haeriadau hynny. Mae un peth yn sicr ddigon: mae cytundeb rhwng y pleidiau ar y mater, y tu mewn a’r tu allan i’r Siambr. Rhestrodd Angela Burns nifer da o sefydliadau sy’n galw ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gefnogi’r ymgyrch hon, ac yr wyf yn siomedig gweld bod y Llywodraeth wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i ddileu’r geiriau ‘yn cefnogi’r ymgyrch dros ddangos’ o’r cynnig. Rhaid imi ddweud, mae hynny’n ymddangos yn bedantig, a dylech newid eich barn ar hynny. Gadewch inni obeithio y gwnewch hynny, pan fyddwn yn pleidleisio.

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This is not just about satisfying requests from consumers; it is also about satisfying retailers and supermarkets who want to market products in Wales to best effect. There is a premium price to be paid for these products because of their high quality. It is also important to remember that there is a need for the better labelling of products served in our restaurants. We must not forget that, all too often unfortunately, when we expect to be served Welsh lamb or beef in a restaurant, it is not Welsh, and the products on the menu are not always locally produced and sourced. If a kitemark were developed—and we will be supporting the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 2 on that—it must apply to restaurant menus as well, so that consumers are clear about what is going into their mouths.

Mae hyn yn fwy nag ufuddhau i geisiadau gan ddefnyddwyr; mae hefyd yn golygu bodloni manwerthwyr ac archfarchnadoedd sydd am farchnata cynnyrch yng Nghymru yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol. Mae premiwm i’w dalu am y nwyddau hyn oherwydd eu safon uchel. Mae’n bwysig cofio bod angen labelu’n well y nwyddau sy’n cael eu gweini yn ein tai bwyta hefyd. Rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio ychwaith nad yw’r cig oen neu’r cig eidion sy’n cael ei weini mewn tai bwyta, a hynny’n rhy aml o lawer, yn anffodus, er ein bod yn disgwyl iddo fod yn Gymreig, yn Gymreig o gwbl, ac nad yw’r cynnyrch ar y fwydlen yn aml yn cael eu gynhyrchu na’i nrynu’n lleol. Petai nod barcud yn cael ei ddatblygu—a byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 2 gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar hyn—byddai’n rhaid iddo fod yn gymwys i dai bwyta hefyd, fel y gall defnyddwyr wybod beth yn union sy’n mynd i mewn i’w cegau.

Despite widespread support, the difficulty appears to be in making these things happen. It does not help that the Labour Party appears to have taken its foot off the pedal at Westminster. It has many distractions at the moment—as have others, of course.

Er bod cefnogaeth eang, ymddengys mai’r anhawster yw gwireddu’r pethau hyn. Nid yw’n helpu’r achos os yw’n ymddangos bod y Blaid Lafur wedi tynnu ei throed oddi ar y sbardun yn San Steffan. Mae nifer o bethau eraill yn tynnu ei sylw ar y funud—fel sy’n wir am eraill, wrth gwrs.

It is time for our Welsh farmers to be on a level playing field with producers in the rest of Europe. We have been actively campaigning for clearer food labelling at the European level, and we look forward to working with our two Welsh Conservative MEPs after the European elections to secure changes in Europe that will be of great benefit to the people of Wales. I am confident that we will be able to do that. All the evidence suggests that people are prepared to pay slightly more for their products when they know where they come from, and when they are assured of their quality and of animal welfare standards.

Mae’n hen bryd i ffermwyr Cymru gael chwarae teg wrth gystadlu â chynhyrchwyr yng ngweddill Ewrop. Yr ydym wedi bod wrthi’n ymgyrchu dros labelu mwy eglur ar lefel Ewropeaidd, ac edrychwn ymlaen at weithio gyda’n dau ASE Ceidwadol Cymreig ar ôl yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd, i sicrhau newidiadau yn Ewrop a fydd o fudd mawr i bobl Cymru. Yr wyf yn hyderus y gallwn wneud hynny. Mae’r dystiolaeth i gyd yn awgrymu bod pobl yn barod i dalu mymryn yn fwy am eu nwyddau pan wyddant o ble maent yn dod a phan fyddant yn sicr am eu safon ac am safonau lles anifeiliaid.

Carl Sargeant rose— Carl Sargeant a gododd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Will you take an intervention?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Darren Millar: I know that you take a great interest in food, Carl, so I will take your intervention.

Darren Millar: Gwn fod gennych ddiddordeb mawr mewn bwyd, Carl, felly, derbyniaf eich ymyriad.

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Carl Sargeant: Likewise, Mr Millar. On those MEPs whom you hope to get re-elected, will you place labels of origin on them, as well, because they are from England, are they not?

Carl Sargeant: Fel chithau hefyd, Mr Millar. Ynghylch yr ASEau yr ydych yn gobeithio y cânt eu hailethol, a fyddwch yn rhoi label arnynt hwythau i ddangos eu tarddiad, gan eu bod yn dod o Loegr, onid ydynt?

Darren Millar: That is not relevant to this debate at all.

Darren Millar: Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’r ddadl o gwbl.

We have made the case to the Chamber on supporting this campaign, and I hope that Members will vote accordingly.

Yr ydym wedi dadlau’r achos dros gefnogi’r ymgyrch hon gerbron y Siambr, a gobeithio y bydd Aelodau’n pleidleisio’n unol â hynny.

Alun Davies: That certainly knocked the wind out of his sails, did it not?

Alun Davies: Mae hynny’n sicr wedi mynd â’r gwynt o’i hwyliau!

I am happy to take part in this debate because it is about honesty and protecting both the producer and the consumer. The evidence that we took in the Rural Development Sub-committee last week was shocking. It demonstrated the organised deception that is taking place, day in, day out in supermarkets and shops across Wales, which seeks to deceive consumers about the goods that they are buying.

Yr wyf yn falch cael cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon gan ei bod yn ymwneud â gonestrwydd a diogelu cynhyrchwyr a defnyddwyr. Yr oedd y dystiolaeth a glywsom yn yr Is-bwyllgor Datblygu Gwledig yr wythnos diwethaf yn ddychrynllyd. Yr oedd yn dangos y twyll cyfundrefnol sy’n digwydd bob dydd mewn archfarchnadoedd a siopau ledled Cymru, sy’n ceisio twyllo defnyddwyr ynghylch y nwyddau maent yn eu prynu.

4.10 p.m.

There is no reason at all why you would label a product ‘Mr Welshegg’ unless you were attempting to persuade the consumer that it was a Welsh egg within the packaging. That is why it is done; it should not be done, it is a deception, and it is a disgrace that it is allowed. It is wrong. Tesco puts a Welsh flag on an egg box, uses a green, red and white label—funny that it chose those colours—and then writes in tiny print at the back of the box ‘Sourced and packaged in Wales’. What it does not claim is that the eggs are laid in Wales. That is what makes the difference. That is what the deception is. Tesco is deceiving the consumers; Mr Welshegg is deceiving the consumers. As a Government, we should say that clearly, and say to them that, if they are seeking to increase their profits at the expense of people who believe that they are buying a different product, they should hang their heads in shame. They should at least be honest with people and say what they are doing. At the moment, that simply does not happen. The evidence that we received last week was shocking. The

Nid oes rheswm yn y byd pam y byddech yn labelu cynnyrch yn ‘Mr Welshegg’ oni bai eich bod yn ceisio perswadio’r defnyddiwr mai wyau Cymreig sydd yn y blwch. Dyna pam y mae’n digwydd; ni ddylai ddigwydd; twyll yw hynny, ac mae’n warthus ei fod yn cael ei ganiatáu. Mae’n anghywir. Mae Tesco yn rhoi baner Cymru ar flychau wyau, mae’n defnyddio labeli coch, gwyn a gwrdd ―rhyfedd ei fod wedi dewis y lliwiau hynny—ac yna mae’n argraffu mewn print mân, mân ar gefn y blwch eiriau sy’n dweud eu bod yn tarddu ac wedi eu pacio yng Nghymru. Yr hyn nad yw’n honni yw bod yr wyau wedi eu dodwy yng Nghymru. Mae Tesco yn twyllo’r defnyddwyr; mae Mr Welshegg yn twyllo’r defnyddwyr. Fel Llywodraeth, dylem ddatgan yn eglur, a dweud wrthynt os ydynt yn ceisio cynyddu eu helw ar draul pobl sy’n credu eu bod yn prynu nwyddau gwahanol y dylent guddio’u hwynebau mewn cywilydd. Dylent o leiaf fod yn onest â phobl a dweud beth yn union y maent yn ei wneud. Ar hyn o bryd nid yw hynny’n digwydd. Yr oedd y dystiolaeth a

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legislation should be changed to reflect that and to ensure that people know and understand what they are buying.

glywsom yr wythnos diwethaf yn ddychrynllyd. Dylid newid y ddeddfwriaeth i adlewyrchu hynny a sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod ac yn deall yr hyn maent yn ei brynu.

However, there is more to this than marketing. It is not simply about what some marketing whizz thought up during a particularly poor brainstorming session. This is about protecting people who believe that they are buying a particular product what it represents. That means that they believe that they are buying a product that meets the animal welfare guidelines and particular quality standards. It is those standards that they believe they are buying into and paying for. The reality is that we have no way of knowing those things under current labelling regulations, which is why they are inadequate and must change. We must protect people in the purchases that they make. Minister, in responding to the debate, I am sure that you will accept the principle of what is being said. I am not going to vote in favour of the motion. I began my contribution talking about—

Fodd bynnag, mae mwy yn hyn na marchnata. Mae’n fwy na rhyw ystryw marchnata wedi ei greu yn ystod rhyw sesiwn hel syniadau. Mae hyn yn golygu diogelu pobl sy’n credu eu bod yn prynu cynnyrch penodol a’r hyn mae’n ei gynrychioli. Mae hynny’n golygu eu bod yn credu eu bod yn prynu cynnyrch sy’n cydymffurfio â’r canllawiau lles anifeiliaid a safonau ansawdd penodol. Maent yn credu eu bod yn prynu ac yn talu am y safonau hynny. Y gwir yw nad oes gennym ffordd i wybod y pethau hynny dan y rheoliadau labelu presennol, a dyna pam y maent yn annigonol a’i bod yn rhaid eu newid. Rhaid inni ddiogelu pobl pan fyddant yn prynu nwyddau. Weinidog, wrth ymateb i’r ddadl, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn derbyn egwyddor yr hyn a ddywedir. Nid wyf am bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig. Agorais fy nghyfraniad drwy sôn am—

Brynle Williams: Will the Member take an intervention?

Brynle Williams: A wnaiff yr Aelod dderbyn ymyriad?

Alun Davies: You can intervene after I have finished my sentence, Brynle. I began my contribution talking about an organised deception, but that is what this motion is. Talk about mislabelling. The motion calls on the National Assembly to say that it ‘supports the campaign’. What it does not say—and this is honesty for you—is ‘support the Conservatives’ campaign’. That would be honesty in labelling. This is deception.

Alun Davies: Cewch ymyrryd ar ôl imi orffen fy mrawddeg, Brynle. Agorais fy nghyfraniad drwy sôn am dwyll cyfundrefnol, ond dyna yw’r cynnig hwn. Sôn am gam-labelu. Mae’r cynnig yn galw ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddweud ei fod yn ‘cefnogi’r ymgyrch’. Yr hyn nad yw’n ddweud—a dyna ichi onestrwydd—yw ‘cefnogwch ymgyrch y Ceidwadwyr’. Dyna fyddai gonestrwydd mewn labelu. Twyll yw hyn.

Brynle Williams: I thank you very much for your earlier comments. However, you have used the word ‘honesty’ an awful lot. You should be honest and support this campaign. You have bandied the word about. You have agreed with us completely that we are right in what we are saying, so use your vote, be honest and be counted for the sake of the Welsh agricultural industry.

Brynle Williams: Diolch ichi am eich sylwadau cynharach. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych wedi defnyddio llawer iawn ar y gair ‘gonestrwydd’. Dylech fod yn onest a chefnogi’r ymgyrch hon. Yr ydych wedi taflu’r gair o gwmpas. Yr ydych wedi cytuno’n gyfan gwbl â ni ein bod yn gywir yn yr hyn yr ydym yn ei ddweud, felly, defnyddiwch eich pleidlais, byddwch yn onest a chodwch eich llais dros ddiwydiant amaethyddol Cymru.

Alun Davies: Brynle Williams, if this motion Alun Davies: Brynle Williams, petai’r

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had said ‘support the Conservatives’ campaign’, I would have had a bit more sympathy with it. The fact is that it has been labelled misleadingly. It has been deliberately mislabelled to persuade people here that it represents something that it does not, and the fact is that the truth had to be dragged out of Angela Burns on a second intervention. That is the reality. No, I am not going to vote in favour of it. You are not going to take me in on this. I am going to fight the campaign for clear labelling, which should include the Welsh Conservatives’ motions.

cynnig hwn wedi dweud ‘cefnogwch ymgyrch y Ceidwadwyr’, byddai gennyf ychydig yn fwy o gydymdeimlad ato. Y gwir yw eich bod wedi ei labelu mewn ffordd gamarweiniol. Mae wedi ei gamlabelu i berswadio pobl ei fod yn cynrychioli rhywbeth nad yw’n ei gynrychioli mewn gwirionedd, a’r ffaith yw fod y gwir wedi gorfod cael ei dynnu allan o Angela Burns ar ail ymyriad. Nac ydwyf, nid wyf am bleidleisio o’i blaid. Nid ydych yn mynd i fy nghamarwain ar hyn. Yr wyf am ymladd yr ymgyrch dros labelu eglur, a dylai’r ymgyrch honno gynnwys cynigion y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Diolch i’r Torïaid am godi’r mater pwysig hwn i’w drafod heddiw. Yr wyf yn ymateb fel y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, er y dylwn nodi mai cyfrifoldeb yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yw gorfodi’r gyfraith mewn perthynas â labelu bwyd, a bod hynny’n rhan o gylch gwaith y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol.

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): I thank the Tories for raising this important matter for debate today. I am responding as the Minister for Rural Affairs, although I should note that the enforcement of food labelling law is a matter for the Food Standards Agency and comes under the responsibilities of the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

Mae’r Llywodraeth yn sicr eisiau gweld gwlad y tarddiad yn fwy eglur ar labeli bwyd. Bum innau’n frwd iawn o’i blaid, fel y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig. Mae pobl yng Nghymru yn iawn i alw am fwy o wybodaeth o ran ble mae bwyd yn cael ei dyfu a’i gynhyrchu, ac yr wyf wedi cymryd pob cyfle yn ddiweddar i godi’r mater mewn trafodaethau gwahanol. Yn ddiweddar, cefais i a Gwenda Thomas, y Dirprwy Weinidog, gyfarfod â chadeirydd yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd, Deirdre Hutton, a chyfeiriwyd yn benodol at yr angen i weld yr asiantaeth yn hyrwyddo’r achos hwn. Wrth ateb cwestiynau yn gynharach, cyfeiriais at yr uwchgynhadledd fwyd y bûm ynddi yng Nghaeredin ar y cyd â Gweinidogion o’r Alban, San Steffan a Gogledd Iwerddon. Cafwyd trafodaeth frwd a chefnogaeth yno gan yr holl Weinidogion o safbwynt gweld cynnydd ar reoliadau labelu gwledydd tarddiad bwydydd. Yr oedd Gweinidog newydd DEFRA, Jane Kennedy, yn ogystal â Gweinidogion y gwledydd Celtaidd, yn cytuno â hynny.

The Government certainly wishes to see labelling that clearly states a product’s country of origin. I have been fully supportive of that as Minister for Rural Affairs. People in Wales are right to demand more information about where food has been grown and produced, and I have taken every opportunity recently to raise this matter in various discussions. Recently, Gwenda Thomas, the Deputy Minister, and I had a meeting with the chair of the Food Standards Agency, Deirdre Hutton, where we referred specifically to the need for the FSA to promote this cause. During my questions earlier today I mentioned the food summit which I attended in Edinburgh with Ministers from Scotland, Westminster and Northern Ireland. There was a good debate and all the Ministers supported progress on the country of origin labelling of food. The new DEFRA Minister, Jane Kennedy, as well as the Celtic Ministers agreed with that.

Yn gyntaf, cyfeiriaf at sefyllfa’r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Mae labelu bwyd yn brif gyfrifoldeb i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

I shall begin by referring to the current legislation. Food labelling is primarily the responsibility of the European Union in the

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yng nghyd-destun harmoneiddio rheoliadau a hybu masnach rydd. Mae rhestr yn bodoli o gynnyrch lle mae’n orfodol nodi gwlad y tarddiad; mae’r rhestr honno’n cynnwys cig eidion, cig llo a ffowlyn o’r tu allan i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, pysgod a chregyn môr, ffrwythau, llysiau, gwin, mêl, wyau ac olew olewydd. Hefyd, mae rheoliadau o ran labelu bwydydd sydd wedi’u haddasu yn enetig.

context of harmonising regulations and promoting free trade. There is already a list of products for which the country of origin has to be noted; that list includes beef, veal and chicken from outside the European Union, fish and shellfish, fruit, vegetables, wine, honey, eggs and olive oil. There are also regulations on the labelling of genetically modified foods.

Yn unol â fframwaith deddfwriaethol presennol y Deyrnas Gyfunol a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, mae’r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi gwella’r wybodaeth ynghylch bwyd a gynhyrchir ac a brosesir yng Nghymru. Dyfarnwyd statws dynodiad daearyddol gwarchodedig i gig oen a chig eidion Cymru o dan gynllun enwau bwyd wedi’u hamddiffyn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae hyn yn ein rhoi mewn sefyllfa gref mewn marchnadoedd domestig a byd-eang. Mae strategaeth cig coch Cymru, a lansiwyd fis diwethaf, yn pwysleisio’r uchelgais o ennill statws DDG ar gyfer porc Cymru. Mae fy swyddogion hefyd yn edrych ar y posibilrwydd o gydweithio â’r diwydiant i ddatblygu stamp ar gyfer wyau sy’n cael eu dodwy yng Nghymru. Mae llawer o Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at un o fy etholwyr, Tony Burgess, a oedd yma’n rhoi tystiolaeth i bwyllgor y Cynulliad ar yr union fater hwn yr wythnos diwethaf.

In line with the current United Kingdom and European Union legislative framework, the Government supports improving the information about food produced and processed in Wales. Protected geographical indicator status was awarded to Welsh beef and lamb under the European Union scheme for protected food names. This places us in a strong position in domestic and global markets. The Welsh red meat strategy, launched last month, emphasises the aim of securing PGI status for Welsh pork. My officials are also looking at the possibility of working with the industry to develop a stamp for eggs laid in Wales. Many Members have referred to one of my constituents, Tony Burgess, who was here last week giving evidence on this very issue to the Assembly committee.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhedeg brand ‘Cymru y Gwir Flas’ er mwyn hyrwyddo cynnyrch o Gymru. Mae gwobrau’r Gwir Flas yn system wobrwyo uchel ei bri ac uchel ei phroffil, sy’n gwobrwyo’r gorau o fwyd a diod Cymru. Mae rhan o’r hysbysiad cymorth gwladwriaethol yn caniatáu i’r Llywodraeth gynorthwyo yn y broses o farchnata cynhyrchion a chwmnïau unigol na fyddent, fel arall, yn gymwys i dderbyn arian cyhoeddus.

The Assembly Government runs the ‘Wales the True Taste’ brand in order to promote Welsh produce. The True Taste awards are highly acclaimed and have a high profile, celebrating the best of Welsh food and drink. Part of the state aid notification allows the Government to assist in the process of marketing individual companies and products that would not otherwise qualify for public money.

Yn ddiweddar, sefydlais bartneriaeth cynghori ar fwyd a diod a fydd yn cynghori ar sut i ddatblygu’n strategol fuddiannau’r gadwyn fwyd ledled Cymru. Yr wyf yn awyddus i’r bartneriaeth roi sylw arbennig i labelu a marchnata bwyd yng nghyd-destun anghenion cwsmeriaid a busnesau yng Nghymru.

I recently established an advisory partnership on food and drink, which will provide advice on how to strategically develop food-chain benefits across Wales. I am keen for the partnership to pay special attention to the labelling and marketing of food in the context of customer and company requirements in Wales.

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Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi argymell rheoliad newydd ar wybodaeth bwyd ac mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd wedi cynnig argymhellion ar hyn. Er enghraifft, os daw’r prif gynhwysion o wlad arall i’r wlad lle y’u prosesir, dylid nodi hynny ar y label gyda geiriau tebyg i, ‘Gwnaed y sosej hwn yn y Deyrnas Unedig o borc o’r Iseldiroedd’. Dyna’r math o ddatblygiadau y byddem yn awyddus i’w gweld. Mae’n gymhleth oherwydd y gall amrywio’n sylweddol o ran cynhwysion unrhyw fwyd sydd wedi’i brosesu. Bydd y drafodaeth ar y rheoliadau hyn yn gorfod cymryd rhywfaint o seibiant dros gyfnod ethol y Senedd newydd.

The European Commission has recommended a new regulation on food information, on which the Food Standards Agency has also made recommendations. For example, if main ingredients are transported from one country to another for processing, that should be noted on the label, with wording to the effect of ‘This sausage was made in the United Kingdom with pork from the Netherlands’. These are the sorts of developments that we would like to see. It is complicated, as it varies considerably according to the ingredients in any processed food. The discussions on these regulations will have to be postponed while the new Parliament is elected.

Mae cynnig y Torïaid heddiw yn galw am gefnogaeth i ymgyrch ar gyfer hyrwyddo hyn. Yr oedd yn anodd inni wybod pa ymgyrch y cyfeiriwyd ati yn benodol. Nid oedd yn glir yng nghyfraniadau Brynle Williams ac Angela Burns, ond daeth yn glir yng araith Andrew R.T. Davies. Cyfeiriodd yn benodol at ymgyrch honest food. Os chwiliwch am yr ymgyrch honno ar Google, fe welwch mai ymgyrch etholiadol gan y Blaid Dorïaidd yn San Steffan yw honno. Fel y dywedodd Alun Davies, byddai wedi bod ychydig yn fwy gonest pe bai’r Torïaid wedi bod yn agored mai ymgyrch gan y Blaid Dorïaidd ydoedd. Derbyniaf y pwynt ei bod yn ymgyrch sydd wedi cael cefnogaeth ehangach na hynny, ond peidiwch â disgwyl i’r Llywodraeth hon roi cefnogaeth benodol i ymgyrch etholiadol gan y blaid Dorïaidd.

The Tory motion today calls for support for a campaign to promote this. It was difficult for us to tell which specific campaign they meant. It was not clear from what Brynle Williams and Angela Burns said, but it was revealed in Andrew R.T. Davies’s speech. He referred specifically to the honest food campaign. If you Google that campaign, you will see that it is an election campaign on behalf of the Tory Party in Westminster. As Alun Davies said, it would have been a little more honest if the Tories had been open about the fact that is was a Tory campaign. I accept the point that it has wider support, but do not expect this Government to specifically support a Tory election campaign.

4.20 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will you recognise that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the National Farmers Union and many farming organisations fully endorsed the honest food campaign and that it often takes being in the political spotlight to move things up the agenda? As my colleague Darren Millar highlighted, five attempts have been made by the Conservative Party in Westminster to drive this through the House of Commons, but they have been voted out by the Labour Government every time. While we accept the political angle, this campaign is also backed by non-governmental stakeholders and it is an honest attempt to push forward an important agenda

Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnewch chi gydnabod bod y Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Atal Creulondeb i Anifeiliaid, Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr a nifer o sefydliadau amaethyddol wedi bod yn gwbl gefnogol i’r ymgyrch honest food ac, yn aml iawn, fod angen bod yn amlwg yn wleidyddol er mwyn cael statws uwch i bethau ar yr agenda? Fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Darren Millar, mae’r Blaid Geidwadol yn San Steffan wedi ceisio mynd â’r mater hwn drwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin bum gwaith, ond mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur wedi pleidleisio yn ei erbyn bob tro. Yr ydym yn cydnabod yr ongl wleidyddol, ond cefnogir yr ymgyrch hon hefyd gan randdeiliaid an-

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item. llywodraethol, ac mae’n ymdrech onest i wthio eitem bwysig ar yr agenda yn ei blaen.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf yn siŵr ei bod yn ymdrech onest i geisio ein twyllo mai ymgyrch amhleidiol oedd hon heddiw. Sut bynnag, mae’n glir erbyn hyn mai’r ymgyrch benodol y cyfeirir ati yw ymgyrch y Torïaid. Yr wyf yn derbyn bod yr ymgyrch wedi cael cefnogaeth ehangach na chefnogaeth eich plaid chi yn unig, ond peidiwch â disgwyl i’r Llywodraeth hon gefnogi ymgyrch wleidyddol benodol gennych chi fel plaid. Yr wyf yn gobeithio eich bod yn derbyn ein bod ni wedi gwella’r cynnig ac wedi tynnu’r cyfeiriad penodol at yr ymgyrch. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau y gallwn gefnogi’r egwyddor o chwilio am labeli bwyd ychwanegol. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y gall pob plaid—wrth bleidleisio ar gynnig wedi’i wella—uno i hyrwyddo’r dymuniad hwnnw y prynhawn yma.

Elin Jones: I am not sure that it was honest to try to fool us today into thinking that this was a non-partisan campaign. However, it is now clear that the specific campaign referred to is a Tory campaign. I accept that it has received wider support, beyond your own party, but do not expect this Government to support a political campaign by your party. I hope you accept that we have improved the motion and have removed the specific reference to the campaign. That will allow us to support the principle of seeking additional food labelling. I hope all parties—in voting for an amended motion—will come together this afternoon to promote that wish.

Cyfeiriaf at welliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ynglŷn â’r nod barcud bwyd Cymru. Nod marchnata yw hwn, wrth gwrs, ac mae’n wahanol i’r angen am reoliadau newydd ar darddiad bwydydd a’r wlad wreiddiol. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwybod nad yw rheoliadau Ewrop yn caniatáu i ni wario arian cyhoeddus i farchnata cynnyrch bwyd Cymru yn uniongyrchol. Dyna pam mae Llywodraethau blaenorol wedi dilyn y llwybr o ddenu statws DDG ar gyfer cig oen, cig eidion a chig mochyn, gobeithio, ac yn hyrwyddo bwydydd drwy wobrau’r Gwir Flas. Gall y diwydiant a chwmnïau wneud hyn o ran nod barcud ac yr wyf yn awyddus i weld sut y gallai’r diwydiant roi arweiniad yn y maes hwn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i’r bartneriaeth bwyd a diod roi cyngor pellach i mi ar y materion hyn. Gan fod tair awr, bellach, ers i Peter Black ofyn a oeddwn yn cefnogi’r gwelliant, rhoddaf yr ateb na fyddwn yn cefnogi’r gwelliant y prynhawn yma.

I now turn to the Liberal Democrat amendment on a Welsh food kitemark. This is, of course, a marketing mark, and it is not the same as the need for new regulations on the country of origin for food. The Liberal Democrats know that European regulations do not allow us to directly spend public money on the marketing of Welsh food produce. That is why previous Governments have gone down the route of securing PGI status for lamb, beef and—hopefully—pork, and promoting foods through the True Taste awards. The industry and individual companies can introduce a kitemark, and I am keen to see how the industry could provide a lead on this. I am keen for the food and drink partnership to provide me with further advice on these issues. Three hours after he asked me whether or not I supported the amendment, I say to Peter Black that we will not be supporting the amendment this afternoon.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Can you wind up, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A allwch chi ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn gobeithio, er ein bod wedi anghydweld yn wleidyddol ar draws y Siambr y prynhawn yma, y byddwn i gyd yn gallu ymuno i gefnogi’r egwyddor o weld gwelliannau mewn perthynas â chofnodi

Elin Jones: Even though we disagree across the political divide in the Chamber this afternoon, I hope we will all be able to come together to support the principle of securing improvements on identifying the origin of

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tarddiad bwydydd. food.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Members will have noticed that I have veered from my practice of not calling Members who are late for a debate. I accept that this debate started early, but other Members wishing to participate were present. However, I did inform the Conservative business manager that I would call Darren Millar, Alun Cairns and Andrew R.T. Davies, or we would not have had any Conservative speakers in a Conservative debate. You might be smiling Andrew R.T. Davies, but I will not call you in future debates if you arrive late.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Bydd yr Aelodau wedi sylwi fy mod wedi gwyro oddi wrth fy arfer o beidio â galw Aelodau sy’n hwyr ar gyfer dadl. Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod y ddadl hon wedi cychwyn yn gynnar, ond yr oedd Aelodau eraill a oedd yn dymuno cymryd rhan yn bresennol. Serch hynny, dywedais wrth reolwr busnes y Ceidwadwyr y byddwn yn galw Darren Millar, Alun Cairns ac Andrew R.T. Davies, neu ni fyddem wedi cael dim siaradwyr Ceidwadol mewn dadl Geidwadol. Gallwch wenu, Andrew R.T. Davies, ond ni fyddaf yn galw arnoch mewn dadleuon yn y dyfodol os cyrhaeddwch yn hwyr.

Alun Cairns: I apologise to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and to the Assembly for not being present for the start of the debate. As you said, the previous debate had finished early, but that is no excuse and we need to ensure in future that we are present. Every effort will be made to ensure that that is the case. I am grateful that you have given me the opportunity to respond.

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ymddiheuro ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ac i’r Cynulliad am beidio â bod yn bresennol ar gyfer dechrau’r ddadl. Fel y dywedasoch, yr oedd y ddadl flaenorol wedi gorffen yn gynnar, ond nid yw hynny’n esgus ac mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn bresennol yn y dyfodol. Gwneir pob ymdrech i sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar eich bod wedi rhoi cyfle imi ymateb.

When the motion was tabled, it was done with a positive intention to unite the Assembly on an issue in which we all believe. The motion was tabled in the hope that every party could support it, in the hope that there was absolute clarity around the objectives, and because non-governmental organisations outside the Assembly, Westminster and the European Parliament would have thought that it was a commonsense motion. I am really quite surprised and disappointed by the approach that has been taken in the debate, in seeking to find technical, political, or sometimes just plain stubborn ways of getting out of supporting a Conservative motion, no matter how well phrased or how positively it is intended. [Interruption.]

Pan gyflwynwyd y cynnig, gwnaethpwyd hynny gyda’r bwriad cadarnhaol o uno’r Cynulliad ar fater yr ydym i gyd yn credu ynddo. Cyflwynwyd y cynnig yn y gobaith y gallai pob plaid ei gefnogi, yn y gobaith bod yr amcanion yn hollol glir, a chan y byddai sefydliadau an-llywodraethol y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, San Steffan a’r Senedd Ewropeaidd wedi credu ei fod yn gynnig synnwyr cyffredin. Mae’r agwedd a welsom yn ystod y ddadl yn fy synnu, a dweud y gwir, ac yr wyf yn siomedig fod rhai’n chwilio am ffyrdd technegol, gwleidyddol, neu hollol ystyfnig weithiau i beidio â chefnogi cynnig Ceidwadol, ni waeth pa mor dda y mae wedi ei eirio na pha mor gadarnhaol yw’r bwriad. [Torri ar draws.]

It is important to return to the key issue. We need to ask ourselves some basic questions. Is the labelling of food clear at the moment? No. Is it complicated? Yes. Is it confusing to the consumer? Yes. Is it fit for purpose? No. It is quite obvious that something needs to be done. The motion talks of support for the

Mae’n bwysig dychwelyd at y mater allweddol. Mae angen inni ofyn cwestiynau sylfaenol inni ein hunain. A yw bwydydd yn cael eu labelu’n glir ar hyn o bryd? Nac ydynt. A yw’r labeli’n gymhleth? Ydynt. A ydynt yn ddryslyd i’r prynwr? Ydynt. A ydynt yn addas i’r diben? Nac ydynt. Mae’n

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campaign for clearer country of origin food labelling, which is basic and easy, and I would have thought that everyone could have supported it. The Minister explained her reasoning, and said that if we Googled the honest food campaign, it would highlight a Conservative Party campaign. I do not apologise for the Conservative Party having a campaign for honest food labelling, but that is not contained within the motion.

hollol amlwg bod angen gwneud rhywbeth. Mae’r cynnig yn sôn am gefnogaeth i’r ymgyrch i nodi’n gliriach ar labeli o ba wlad y mae bwydydd yn tarddu, sy’n fater elfennol a hawdd, a byddwn yn tybio y byddai pawb wedi gallu ei gefnogi. Eglurodd y Gweinidog ei rhesymeg, a dywedodd mai’r hyn a welem petaem yn Gwglo’r ymgyrch honest food fyddai ymgyrch gan y Blaid Geidwadol. Nid wyf yn ymddiheuro bod gan y Blaid Geidwadol ymgyrch dros labeli bwyd gonest, ond nid yw hynny yn y cynnig.

Elin Jones: The campaign was referred to by Andrew R.T. Davies as the honest food campaign. He was the first Conservative Party Member to be honest enough to call it that.

Elin Jones: Cyfeiriodd Andrew R.T. Davies at yr ymgyrch fel ymgyrch honest food. Ef oedd yr Aelod cyntaf o’r Blaid Geidwadol i fod yn ddigon gonest i’w galw’n hynny.

Alun Cairns: I am not going to apologise for a Conservative politician referring to a Conservative campaign in the interests of getting honest food labelling, when the motion quite clearly supports the campaign for clearer country of origin food labelling.

Alun Cairns: Nid wyf am ymddiheuro dros wleidydd Ceidwadol sy’n cyfeirio at ymgyrch Geidwadol er mwyn cael labeli bwyd gonest, pan fydd y cynnig yn hollol amlwg yn cefnogi’r ymgyrch dros labelu’n gliriach o ba wlad y mae bwyd yn tarddu.

Alun Davies: You defend that Conservative Member, and you also defend the Conservative Member who, time and again, when given the opportunity to do so, refused to say that it was a Conservative Party campaign. That, in itself, constitutes mislabelling and misleading marketing.

Alun Davies: Yr ydych yn amddiffyn yr Aelod Ceidwadol hwnnw, ac yr ydych hefyd yn amddiffyn yr Aelod Ceidwadol a wrthododd ddweud, dro ar ôl tro, pan roddwyd cyfle iddo wneud hynny, mai ymgyrch gan y Blaid Geidwadol oedd hi. Mae hynny ynddo’i hun yn gamlabelu a marchnata camarweiniol.

Alun Cairns: That really demonstrates the agenda, which is quite clear. Any motion that is tabled by the Conservative Party, no matter how well supported by non-governmental organisations such as the RSPCA, the NFU and many other organisations, which recognise the common sense behind it, the attitude of some individuals and parties here is clearly that they do not want to know. That is sad. It is sad for farmers, for Wales, and for all of those who are involved in the food industry, because we are quite clearly trying to raise the debate. It has already been mentioned several times that, since 2000, five different private Member’s Bills have been blocked in the House of Commons in order to stop progress being made on this. It is something that could have been initiated in Wales, and something that the Assembly, on a united, cross-party basis, could well have

Alun Cairns: Mae hynny’n sicr yn dangos yr agenda, sy’n hollol glir. Ni waeth pa gynnig a gyflwynir gan y Blaid Geidwadol, ac ni waeth faint o gefnogaeth sydd iddo gan sefydliadau an-llywodraethol fel yr RSPCA, yr NFU a nifer o sefydliadau eraill sy’n cydnabod y synnwyr cyffredin y tu ôl iddo, mae’n amlwg mai’r agwedd sydd gan rai unigolion a phleidiau yma yw nad oes arnynt eisiau gwybod. Mae hynny’n drist. Mae’n drist i ffermwyr, i Gymru, ac i bawb sy’n ymwneud â’r diwydiant bwyd, oherwydd yr ydym yn hollol amlwg yn ceisio codi’r ddadl. Crybwyllwyd eisoes fwy nag unwaith fod pum gwahanol Fesur Aelod preifat wedi eu hatal yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, er 2000, er mwyn rhwystro cynnydd gyda hyn. Mae’n rhywbeth a allai fod wedi ei ddechrau yng Nghymru, ac yn rhywbeth y gallai’r Cynulliad, ar sail unedig, drawsbleidiol, yn sicr fod wedi

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taken credit for by calling on the UK Government and the European Parliament to make progress.

hawlio’r clod amdano drwy alw ar Lywodraeth y DU a Senedd Ewrop i wneud cynnydd.

I would have accepted the argument that has been put by the Minister, and the argument that has been put by Alun Davies, if the motion clearly mentioned supporting the Conservative Party’s honest food campaign. I would not expect you to vote for that, no matter how well intentioned it would be. That is why the motion was phrased clearly in a neutral way, so as not to put you in an awkward position when it came to the vote. People outside will be looking at the voting habits of individual Members here. It is quite obvious that the European—

Byddwn wedi derbyn y ddadl a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog, a’r ddadl a gyflwynwyd gan Alun Davies, petai’r cynnig yn cyfeirio’n glir at gefnogi ymgyrch honest food y Blaid Geidwadol. Ni fyddwn yn disgwyl ichi bleidleisio o blaid hynny, ni waeth pa mor dda fyddai bwriadau’r ymgyrch. Dyna pam y geiriwyd y cynnig yn glir mewn ffordd niwtral, fel na fyddech yn cael eich rhoi mewn sefyllfa annifyr pan ddeuai’n amser pleidleisio. Bydd pobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad yn edrych ar arferion pleidleisio Aelodau unigol yma. Mae’n hollol amlwg fod Ewrop—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: If you were acting in such an honest way, you would have tabled a motion calling on the Minister to discuss with Hilary Benn how to move forward on the issue of clarity of labelling. The motion refers specifically to the campaign. It does not ask the Minister to do anything; it asks the Minister and the Government to support a Conservative campaign. You cannot expect the Minister to do that.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Petaech yn gweithredu mewn ffordd mor onest, byddech wedi cyflwyno cynnig yn galw ar y Gweinidog i drafod gyda Hilary Benn sut i symud ymlaen ar fater labeli clir. Mae’r cynnig yn cyfeirio’n benodol at yr ymgyrch. Nid yw’n gofyn i’r Gweinidog wneud dim; mae’n gofyn i’r Gweinidog a’r Llywodraeth gefnogi ymgyrch Geidwadol. Ni allwch ddisgwyl i’r Gweinidog wneud hynny.

Alun Cairns: Several issues have come out of that intervention, which really shows so much. First, the substance of the motion is quite obvious. Never before have I seen Plaid Cymru being so deferential to the Labour Party, calling on the Minister to call on Hilary Benn to take action in this regard. Is this not an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to state quite clearly where it stands on an issue, supporting Wales, supporting Welsh farmers supporting honest food labelling, or supporting clearer food labelling in relation to supporting the Welsh agricultural and food industries.

Alun Cairns: Mae nifer o bwyntiau wedi dod o’r ymyriad hwnnw, sy’n dangos cymaint. Yn gyntaf, mae hanfod y cynnig yn hollol amlwg. Nid wyf erioed o’r blaen wedi gweld Plaid Cymru yn dangos cymaint o barch i’r Blaid Lafur, gan alw ar y Gweinidog i alw ar Hilary Benn i weithredu yn y cyswllt hwn. Onid yw hwn yn gyfle i Blaid Cymru ddatgan yn hollol glir beth yw ei safbwynt ar fater, cefnogi Cymru, cefnogi ffermwyr Cymru, cefnogi labelu bwyd gonest, neu gefnogi labelu bwyd yn gliriach o safbwynt cefnogi diwydiant amaethyddiaeth a diwydiant bwyd Cymru.

4.30 p.m.

However, that is the reality. I can hear a lot of muttering from the other end of the Chamber, but it is obvious that Plaid Cymru is extremely uncomfortable with what it is doing because it knows that the motion has been phrased in a careful way to garner support, but when it comes down to it, Plaid Cymru is voting against it.

Er hynny, dyna yw’r realiti. Clywaf lawer o fwmian o’r pen arall i’r Siambr, ond mae’n amlwg fod Plaid Cymru yn eithriadol o anghyfforddus gyda’r hyn a y mae’n ei wneud, oherwydd gŵyr bod y cynnig wedi’i eirio mewn modd gofalus er mwyn ennyn cefnogaeth, ond diwedd y gân yw fod Plaid Cymru yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn.

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The attitude of Plaid Cymru towards Labour has been deferential. Why on earth did Rhodri Glyn Thomas or one of his colleagues not table an amendment? We would have happily supported it. It would have meant that at least Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats and the Welsh Conservatives could be united in calling on Hilary Benn to take action in this respect. We would have happily supported your amendment. We are not precious about it. It does not have to be a Conservative amendment; we are happily supporting the Liberal Democrat amendment because we think that it adds to the motion. However, it comes down to the fact that, if it is a Conservative motion, then Labour and Plaid Cymru in particular say ‘No’ no matter how good an idea it is. Shame on you all.

Mae agwedd Plaid Cymru at Lafur wedi bod yn ymostyngar. Pam ar y ddaear na wnaeth Rhodri Glyn Thomas neu un o’i gyd-Aelodau gyflwyno gwelliant? Byddem wedi bod yn fodlon ei gefnogi. Byddai wedi golygu y gellid o leiaf fod wedi uno Plaid Cymru, Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru a’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i alw ar Hilary Benn i weithredu i’r perwyl hwn. Byddem wedi bod yn fodlon cefnogi’ch gwelliant. Nid ydym yn fursennaidd yn ei gylch. Nid oes yn rhaid iddo fod yn welliant Ceidwadol; yr ydym yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol oherwydd credwn ei fod yn ychwanegu at y cynnig. Er hynny, diwedd y gân yw’r ffaith, os yw’n gynnig gan y Ceidwadwyr, y bydd Llafur a Phlaid Cymru yn enwedig yn dweud ‘Na’ ni waeth pa mor dda yw’r syniad. Cywilydd arnoch i gyd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. Therefore, I will defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno’r y cynnig heb welliant. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod. Felly, yr wyf yn gohirio’r holl bleidleisio ar y mater hwn tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol CymruWelsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Ffioedd DysguTuition Fees

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones and amendment 2 in the name of Alun Cairns. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones a gwelliant 2 yn enw Alun Cairns. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol.

Jenny Randerson: I move that Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to reverse its decision to scrap the tuition fees grant. (NDM4211)

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i wyrdroi ei phenderfyniad i ddileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu. (NDM4211)

On 18 March, a statement made by the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills on student finance marked not just an end to the tuition fee

Ar 18 Mawrth, yr datganiad a wnaethpwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau ar gyllid myfyrwyr yn nodi nid yn unig ddiwedd y grant ffioedd

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grant, but a dramatic 40 per cent cut in the total financial assistance available to students. The Labour-Plaid Government has failed our young people on two counts. It has failed them on direct student finance and it has failed them on the provision of the highest quality higher education by allowing a giant £61 million funding gap to arise in the core funding for our universities. The Minister announced that she intends to rob Peter to pay Paul; to take the money from the pockets of students to give a bit more to the universities.

dysgu, ond hefyd doriad aruthrol o 40 y cant yng nghyfanswm y cymorth ariannol sydd ar gael i fyfyrwyr. Mae ein Llywodraeth Lafur-Plaid wedi siomi ein pobl ifanc ar ddau bwynt. Mae wedi’u siomi o safbwynt cyllid myfyrwyr uniongyrchol, ac mae wedi’u siomi o safbwynt darpariaeth addysg uwch o’r safon uchaf drwy ganiatáu i fwlch cyllid aruthrol o £61 miliwn ddigwydd yng nghyllid craidd ein prifysgolion. Cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog ei bod yn bwriadu dwyn o’r naill law i dalu’r llall; cymryd arian o bocedi myfyrwyr er mwyn rhoi ychydig yn rhagor i’r prifysgolion.

Let us start with the reason for introducing the tuition fees grant in the first place. It was an issue that was forced on the minority Labour administration at that time by the combined pressure of the, then, three opposition parties. The following sums it up. The distinctive policy on tuition fees is one of the great achievements of devolution. It has reversed the declining numbers of Welsh youth choosing to study, work and live in the country of their birth. It has begun the process of turning our national brain drain into a brain gain. Those are not my words, but those of Plaid’s youth group in a letter to Assembly Members, and it is right.

Gadewch inni ddechrau gyda’r rheswm dros gyflwyno’r grant ffioedd dysgu yn y lle cyntaf. Yr oedd yn fater a orfodwyd ar y weinyddiaeth Lafur leiafrifol bryd hynny gan bwysau cyfunol y tair gwrthblaid ar y pryd. Mae’r canlynol yn ei grynhoi. Mae’r polisi neilltuol ar ffioedd dysgu yn un o gyflawniadau mawr datganoli. Mae wedi gwyrdroi y nifer gostyngol o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru sy’n dewis astudio, gweithio a byw yn eu gwlad enedigol. Mae wedi dechrau’r broses o droi ein mudo ymenyddol cenedlaethol yn fantais ymenyddol. Nid fy ngeiriau i yw’r rheiny, ond geiriau grŵp ieuenctid y Blaid mewn llythyr at Aelodau’r Cynulliad, ac y mae’n iawn.

The removal of the tuition fees grant will result in there no longer being any financial incentive to study in Wales. For the last few years, Wales has benefited distinctly from not having fees and has been able to use this to encourage Welsh students to stay here and study in their home country. In turn, there is a direct knock-on benefit in attracting more students to Welsh universities—and recruitment numbers matter. Once they have graduated, many students choose to stay in the town in which they studied. This has had the effect of keeping many Welsh graduates in Wales rather than seeing them going over to England in search of jobs and careers.

Bydd dileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu yn arwain at sefyllfa lle na fydd mwyach gymhelliant ariannol i astudio yng Nghymru. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf mae Cymru wedi elwa’n amlwg o beidio â chael ffioedd, ac mae wedi gallu defnyddio hyn i annog myfyrwyr o Gymru i aros yma ac i astudio yn eu mamwlad. Yn ei dro, mae yna fantais gynyddol uniongyrchol drwy ddenu rhagor o fyfyrwyr i brifysgolion Cymru—ac mae niferoedd recriwtio yn cyfrif. Ar ôl iddynt raddio, bydd nifer o fyfyrwyr yn dewis aros yn y dref lle buont yn astudio. Mae hyn wedi cael yr effaith o gadw nifer o raddedigion Cymru yng Nghymru yn hytrach na’u gweld yn mynd draw i Loegr i chwilio am swyddi a gyrfaoedd.

We have, therefore, very effectively, been attempting to reverse the brain drain. The removal of the tuition fees grant is a surprising backtrack given these fundamental reasons for introducing it in the first place.

Yr ydym, felly, yn effeithiol iawn wedi bod yn ceisio gwyrdroi’r mudo ymenyddol. Mae dileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu yn wrthgiliad annisgwyl o ystyried y rhesymau sylfaenol dros ei gyflwyno yn y lle cyntaf. Bydd

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The Welsh Assembly Government will undoubtedly tell us that it all comes down to money. However, it simply is not true. The Minister, when she says that we cannot afford to keep the tuition fees grant will, I believe, be wrong. It is not something that we cannot afford to do, but something that we cannot afford not to do. It does not only encourage young people to go to university in Wales; it encourages young people to go to university in the first place. We desperately need a better educated, higher skilled workforce. Wales is at the bottom of all the education league tables. When you consider those statistics, you have to ask how we, as a nation, will dig ourselves out of being at the bottom of the economic league table if we do not improve education levels. We need the future to be brighter than our past and we need to ensure that through education.

Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, heb os, yn dweud wrthym fod hyn oll yn ymwneud ag arian. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n wir. Bydd y Gweinidog, pan ddywed na allwn fforddio cadw’r grant ffioedd dysgu, yn fy marn i yn anghywir. Nid rhywbeth na allwn ei fforddio mohono; yn hytrach mae’n rhywbeth na allwn fforddio peidio â’i wneud. Mae nid yn unig yn annog pobl ifanc i fynd i brifysgol yng Nghymru; mae’n annog pobl ifanc i fynd i brifysgol yn y lle cyntaf. Mae arnom angen taer am weithlu wedi’i addysgu’n well ac sydd â gwell sgiliau. Mae Cymru ar waelod pob tabl cynghrair addysg. Wrth ichi ystyried yr ystadegau hynny, rhaid ichi ofyn sut y byddwn ni, fel cenedl, yn ceibio ein hunain allan o fod ar waelod y tabl cynghrair economaidd os na fyddwn yn gwella lefelau addysg. Mae arnom angen i’r dyfodol fod yn fwy llewyrchus na’n gorffennol, ac mae angen inni sicrhau hynny drwy gyfrwng addysg.

Our case is perhaps best made by using Janet Ryder’s words—and forgive me, Janet, for doing this—from the last time the introduction of fees were on the agenda.

Y ffordd orau o gyflwyno ein dadl, efallai, yw drwy ddefnyddio geiriau Janet Ryder—a maddeuwch imi, Janet, am wneud hyn—o’r tro diwethaf pan oedd cyflwyno ffioedd ar yr agenda.

‘The notion that somehow this Labour Government has no option other than to charge students fees is one that Plaid Cymru wholly rejects. The decision to charge students for their education is a political choice made by the Labour government. It could equally decide to make no charge at all. It is a question of priorities and principles.’

Mae’r cysyniad nad oes gan y Llywodraeth Lafur hon ddim dewis ond codi ffioedd myfyrwyr yn un y mae Plaid Cymru yn ei wrthod yn llwyr. Mae’r penderfyniad i godi ar fyfyrwyr am eu haddysg yn ddewis gwleidyddol a wnaethpwyd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur. Gallai lawn cystal benderfynu gwneud dim newid o gwbl. Mater o flaenoriaethau ac egwyddorion ydyw.

We believe that Janet is right: it is a matter of setting priorities. I regret that the One Wales Government does not appear to see higher education as a priority—the Welsh Liberal Democrats certainly do.

Credwn fod Janet yn iawn: mater o bennu blaenoriaethau ydyw. Mae’n resyn gennyf nad yw’n ymddangos bod Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn gweld addysg uwch fel blaenoriaeth—mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn sicr yn gwneud hynny.

Frequently the Government talks about the need to ensure that we are capable of fighting through the recession, that we are equipped to rebuild the economy once the recession is over and that we are able to develop jobs in new industries, especially in the green industry. Where will these skills come from if not from the higher education sector?

Bydd y Llywodraeth yn aml yn sôn bod angen sicrhau ein bod yn gallu brwydro drwy’r dirwasgiad, ein bod wedi ein harfogi i ailadeiladu’r economi ar ôl i’r dirwasgiad ddod i ben a’n bod yn gallu datblygu swyddi mewn diwydiannau newydd, yn enwedig yn y diwydiant gwyrdd. O ble y daw’r sgiliau hyn os na ddônt o’r sector addysg uwch?

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The Welsh Assembly Government is long on rhetoric and very short on funding for higher education as a whole in Wales. The shameful funding gap has been allowed to develop. Universities must be recognised as a vital economic driver and contributor, funded accordingly for their economic contribution to our country.

Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn hael ei rhethreg ond yn gynnil iawn ei harian i addysg uwch drwyddi draw yng Nghymru. Caniatawyd i’r bwlch cyllid cywilyddus ddatblygu. Rhaid cydnabod prifysgolion fel cyfranogydd a symbylydd economaidd hanfodol, yn cael eu hariannu’n unol â hynny am eu cyfraniad economaidd i’n gwlad.

Alun Davies: Thank you for giving way. You spoke at length about the funding gap and the importance of higher education, but you have not explained where the money will come from. You talk about being long on rhetoric, but is that not the Liberal Democrats’ trick time and time again—you are long on rhetoric, but short on funding ideas?

Alun Davies: Diolch ichi am ildio. Soniech yn faith am y bwlch cyllid ac am bwysigrwydd addysg uwch, ond nid ydych wedi esbonio o ble y daw’r arian. Soniwch am haelioni rhethregol, ond onid hwnnw yw tric y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol dro ar ôl tro—yr ydych yn hael eich rhethreg ond yn gynnil eich syniadau am gyllid?

Jenny Randerson: Absolutely not, Alun, and I wish to be clear about this. In the event of Liberal Democrat influence on the UK Government, following the general election, we would benefit, via the Barnett formula, from an extra £60 million, which neatly fills the funding gap. In the event of there not being Liberal Democrat influence on the UK Government, then I unashamedly see the universities as being part of the economy of our country and that is where we will look for the money. You can be assured that by the time of the next Assembly election, our manifesto will be fully costed and we will stick to the principle of making higher education available to all.

Jenny Randerson: Nac ydwyf yn bendant, Alun, a hoffwn fod yn glir ynghylch hyn. Os caiff y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddylanwad ar Lywodraeth y DU, yn dilyn yr etholiad cyffredinol, byddem yn elwa, drwy gyfrwng fformiwla Barnett, o £60 miliwn yn ychwanegol, a byddai hynny’n llenwi’r bwlch cyllid yn daclus. Os na chaiff y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddylanwad ar Lywodraeth y DU, yna yr wyf yn ddiedifar yn gweld y prifysgolion fel rhan o economi ein gwlad a dyna lle byddwn yn edrych am yr arian. Gallwch fod yn hyderus y bydd ein maniffesto, erbyn etholiad nesaf y Cynulliad, yn cynnwys costau llawn ac y byddwn yn cadw at yr egwyddor o sicrhau bod addysg uwch ar gael i bawb.

If the economy and such matters really are a priority for the Government, then it must demonstrate that by funding the higher education sector properly. The cost of education should not be borne by students. We remain committed to the belief that education is a right and not a privilege and that it should remain free for all. The Labour Party abandoned that principle in 1998, soon after returning to power. After two years of being in power, I regret to say that Plaid Cymru’s leaders have done the same.

Os yw’r economi a materion o’r fath yn wirioneddol yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth, yna rhaid iddi ddangos hynny drwy ariannu’r sector addysg uwch yn briodol. Nid myfyrwyr a ddylai dalu cost addysg. Yr ydym yn dal wedi ymrwymo i’r gred mai hawl nid braint yw addysg ac y dylai barhau’n rhad ac am ddim i bawb. Rhoddodd y Blaid Lafur y gorau i’r egwyddor honno yn 1998, yn fuan ar ôl dychwelyd i rym. Ar ôl dwy flynedd mewn grym, mae’n resyn gennyf ddweud bod arweinyddion Plaid Cymru wedi gwneud yr un peth.

While the new regime may offer support for people from poorer backgrounds, that will not be enough. I remind you of the

Er y gall y gyfundrefn newydd gynnig cefnogaeth i bobl o gefndiroedd tlotach, ni fydd hynny’n ddigon. Yr wyf yn eich atgoffa

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information in the Rees report that made it clear that people from poorer backgrounds are equally deterred from going to university by the concept of tuition fees, whether or not they are eligible for additional financial support.

o’r wybodaeth yn adroddiad Rees a oedd yn dweud yn glir fod pobl o gefndiroedd tlotach yn cael eu rhwystro i’r un graddau rhag mynd i brifysgol oherwydd ffioedd dysgu fel cysyniad, p’un a ydynt yn gymwys i gael cymorth ariannol ychwanegol ai peidio.

4.40 p.m.

It is important that we remember that fact. Tuition fees, of all sorts, are a deterrent. Unfortunately, it deters those from less well off backgrounds in exactly the same way as it deters those who will have to pay the fees.

Mae’n bwysig inni gofio’r ffaith honno. Mae ffioedd dysgu, o bob math, yn rhwystr. Yn anffodus, mae’n rhwystro’r rheiny sy’n dod o gefndiroedd llai cefnog yn union fel y mae’n rhwystro’r rheiny y bydd yn rhaid iddynt dalu’r ffioedd.

The Minister’s package contains some good ideas, but they would be good ideas in addition to the tuition fees grant, not instead of it. It has the big disadvantage of being a complex package and it is therefore very likely that many people who would be eligible for that funding will not apply for it or will not realise that they are eligible. That is always the case when you introduce a complex means-tested benefit or funding.

Mae pecyn y Gweinidog yn cynnwys rhai syniadau da, ond byddent yn syniadau da yn ychwanegol at y grant ffioedd dysgu, nid yn ei le. Mae iddo anfantais fawr o fod yn becyn cymhleth, ac mae’n debygol iawn, felly, na fydd llawer o bobl, a fyddai’n gymwys i gael yr arian hwnnw, yn ymgeisio amdano neu heb sylweddoli eu bod yn gymwys. Mae hynny bob amser yn wir pan gyflwynwch fudd-dal neu gyllid cymhleth drwy brawf modd.

We heard recently about the sadly rising levels of child poverty in this country. When will the Welsh Assembly Government realise that we need a fundamental step change to our funding of education, if we are to educate ourselves out of poverty? An educated nation is never a poor nation. This decision on the tuition fees grant is perverse and will do enormous damage to our young people. I urge AMs of all parties to stand by the principle of free education being available to all.

Clywsom yn ddiweddar am lefelau tlodi cynyddol ymhlith plant yn y wlad hon yn anffodus. Pryd y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn sylweddoli bod arnom angen newid sylweddol sylfaenol yn ein system ariannu addysg, os ydym i’n haddysgu ein hunain allan o dlodi? Nid yw gwlad addysgedig byth yn wlad dlawd. Mae’r penderfyniad hwn am y grant ffioedd dysgu yn wyrdroëdig a bydd yn gwneud niwed aruthrol i’n pobl ifanc. Anogaf ACau pob plaid i gefnogi’r egwyddor o addysg am ddim sydd ar gael i bawb.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): I move amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete all and replace with:

Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu’r cyfan ac yn ei le rhoi:

1. recognises the budgetary constraints under which the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy on student tuition fees has been developed and has to operate;

1. yn cydnabod y cyfyngiadau ar y gyllideb a ddefnyddiwyd wrth ddatblygu polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar ffioedd dysgu myfyrwyr ac yn gorfod gweithredu oddi tani;

2. welcomes new proposals to alleviate student debt, to improve support to least

2. yn croesawu cynigion newydd i leddfu dyled myfyrwyr, gwella’r cymorth i’r

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well-off students, to increase the number of graduates in the Welsh economy, and to increase the level of resources available to higher education institutions in Wales.

myfyrwyr lleiaf cyfoethog, cynyddu nifer y graddedigion yn economi Cymru, a chynyddu faint o adnoddau sydd ar gael i sefydliadau addysg uwch yng Nghymru.

Paul Davies: I move amendment 2 in the name of Alun Cairns. Add a new point at the end of the motion:

Paul Davies: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Alun Cairns. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

notes with concern the potential impact the scrapping of the tuition fees grant will have on Welsh students and their studies.

yn nodi â phryder yr effaith bosibl y bydd dileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu yn ei chael ar fyfyrwyr o Gymru ac ar eu hastudiaethau.

I would like to thank the Liberal Democrats for bringing this debate to the Chamber today. The Assembly Government’s decision to scrap the tuition fees grant has very serious implications. While the Labour-Plaid Government and the Minister may argue that scrapping the tuition fees grant in favour of the new measures outlined in March will create a level playing field for all Welsh students, wherever they study, I am deeply concerned that the move may act as a barrier to students fulfilling their potential.

Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am ddod â’r ddadl hon i’r Siambr heddiw. Mae i benderfyniad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu oblygiadau difrifol iawn. Er y gall y Llywodraeth Lafur-Plaid a’r Gweinidog ddadlau y bydd dileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu er mwyn y mesurau newydd a amlinellwyd ym mis Mawrth yn rhoi tegwch i holl fyfyrwyr Cymru, ble bynnag yr astudiant, yr wyf yn pryderu’n aruthrol y gallai’r symudiad fod yn rhwystr i fyfyrwyr rhag cyflawni eu potensial.

In our manifesto for the 2007 Assembly elections, the Welsh Conservatives pledged not to introduce top-up fees before 2011. I want to make it clear today that we stand by that commitment as a matter of principle. We are not in the habit of breaking our manifesto commitments.

Yn ein maniffesto ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad yn 2007 addawodd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig beidio â chyflwyno ffioedd atodol cyn 2011. Mae arnaf eisiau dweud yn glir heddiw ein bod yn cadw at yr addewid hwnnw o ran egwyddor. Nid yw’n arferiad gennym dorri addewidion ein maniffesto.

Nerys Evans: Does that mean that you disagree with David Cameron who supports top-up fees?

Nerys Evans: A yw hynny’n golygu eich bod yn anghytuno â David Cameron sy’n cefnogi ffioedd atodol?

Paul Davies: That is what devolution is all about—we can develop different policies here in Wales from those in the rest of the United Kingdom. Giving our young people access to higher education is vital to help them to achieve their potential. They deserve to have access to education and we must ensure that the cost does not prevent any Welsh student, of any background, from furthering their studies. Ensuring access to higher education is also fundamentally important in ensuring our economic development. Putting barriers in the way of young people and their ongoing learning will not help us out of the current recession. We are all aware that, at one time, Members from

Paul Davies: Dyna’n union y mae datganoli’n ei olygu—gallwn lunio polisïau gwahanol yma yng Nghymru i’r rheiny yng ngweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae galluogi ein pobl ifanc i gael addysg uwch yn hanfodol i’w helpu i gyflawni eu potensial. Maent yn haeddu gallu cael addysg, a rhaid inni sicrhau nad yw’r gost yn rhwystro’r un myfyriwr o Gymru, o unrhyw gefndir, rhag gwella’i astudiaethau. Mae sicrhau mynediad i addysg uwch hefyd yn sylfaenol bwysig wrth sicrhau ein datblygiad economaidd. Ni fydd gosod rhwystrau o flaen pobl ifanc a’u dysgu parhaus yn ein helpu i ddod allan o’r dirwasgiad presennol. Yr ydym i gyd yn gwbl ymwybodol fod Aelodau o bob plaid, ar

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all parties were against top-up fees. Indeed, it was a Welsh Conservatives’ motion that the Assembly voted on in 2005, to not introduce top-up fees in Wales. Even though the then Labour administration voted against our motion, the First Minister had said in 2002:

un adeg, yn gwrthwynebu ffioedd atodol. Yn wir, cynnig gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig y pleidleisiodd y Cynulliad arno yn 2005, i beidio â chyflwyno ffioedd atodol yng Nghymru. Er bod y weinyddiaeth Lafur ar y pryd wedi pleidleisio yn erbyn ein cynnig, yr oedd y Prif Weinidog ar y pryd wedi dweud yn 2002:

‘I have made it clear since 1997 that I am not in favour of student tuition fees.’

Yr wyf wedi dweud yn glir er 1997 nad wyf o blaid ffioedd dysgu i fyfyrwyr.

During the debate in May 2005, we heard Members expressing strong sentiments against the introduction of top-up fees. I will also quote Janet Ryder, the then Plaid education spokesperson, who said:

Yn ystod y ddadl ym Mai 2005, clywsom Aelodau’n mynegi teimladau cryf yn erbyn cyflwyno ffioedd atodol. Dyfynnaf Janet Ryder hefyd, llefarydd addysg y Blaid ar y pryd, a ddywedodd:

‘The position of Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales is clear…We say ‘no’ to funding higher education through the use of fees.’

Mae sefyllfa Plaid Cymru yn glir...Yr ydym yn dweud ‘na’ i ariannu addysg uwch drwy ddefnyddio ffioedd.

I hope that she continues to believe in that principle, unlike her party, which now apparently believes it in principle, but not in practice. Of course, I accept that funding our higher education system is immensely challenging, but it is vital that it is funded effectively, and it is up to the Assembly Government to make the right decisions on higher education funding. It needs to put higher education in Wales on a firm financial footing to sustain the highest-quality learning environment for students. Politics is about priorities; governing is about making the right decisions, and it is up to the Assembly Government to prioritise ensuring that Welsh students are not disadvantaged.

Gobeithio’i bod yn dal i gredu yn yr egwyddor honno, yn wahanol i’w phlaid, sy’n awr i bob golwg yn ei chredu mewn egwyddor ond nid yn ymarferol. Wrth gwrs, yr wyf yn derbyn bod cyllido ein cyfundrefn addysg uwch yn her enfawr, ond mae’n hanfodol iddi gael chyllido’n effeithiol, a chyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw gwneud y penderfyniadau iawn ar gyllido addysg uwch. Mae angen iddi roi addysg uwch yng Nghymru ar dir cadarn yn ariannol er mwyn cynnal amgylchedd dysgu o’r safon uchaf i fyfyrwyr. Mae a wnelo gwleidyddiaeth â blaenoriaethau; mae a wnelo llywodraeth â gwneud y penderfyniadau iawn, a chyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw blaenoriaethu i sicrhau nad yw myfyrwyr Cymru dan anfantais.

Bethan Jenkins: The Conservatives will probably be in power in Westminster following the next elections. Would you have a red line? Should there be cuts from Westminster if the Conservatives were in Government with David Cameron at the helm, would you cut provision in this area or would you retain the tuition fees grant?

Bethan Jenkins: Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn debygol o fod mewn grym yn San Steffan ar ôl yr etholiadau nesaf. A fyddai gennych chi linell goch? Pe byddai toriadau o San Steffan pe câi’r Ceidwadwyr eu hethol yn Llywodraeth gyda David Cameron wrth y llyw, a fyddech yn torri’r ddarpariaeth yn y maes hwn, ynteu a fyddech yn cadw’r grant ffioedd dysgu?

Paul Davies: I do not know how many times Paul Davies: Ni wn sawl gwaith y mae’n

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I have to say this, but we have committed to not introducing top-up fees before 2011. How much clearer do I have to be?

rhaid imi ddweud hyn, ond yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i beidio â chyflwyno ffioedd atodol cyn 2011. Faint yn gliriach sy’n rhaid imi fod?

Leanne Wood: Will you give way? Leanne Wood: A wnewch chi ildio?

Paul Davies: I do not have enough time left. Paul Davies: Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser ar ôl.

The situation must be addressed so that students in Wales can access the best possible education.

Rhaid rhoi sylw i’r sefyllfa fel y gall myfyrwyr yng Nghymru gael yr addysg orau posibl.

I want to raise the issue of whether enough funding is being set aside for the student debt write-off scheme. The increasing debt burden will inevitably put more pressure on students, and it could result in deterring people from entering into higher education. If the Government wants to encourage as many people as possible into higher education—and it has proved that it wants to do that by setting targets—surely introducing fees will deter those students who just fail to qualify for the Assembly learning grant from going to university? We cannot afford for that to happen if we want to ensure that Wales’s economic and social development flourishes.

Yr wyf am godi’r cwestiwn a oes digon o gyllid yn cael ei neilltuo ar gyfer y cynllun i ddileu dyledion myfyrwyr. Mae’n anochel y bydd baich y ddyled gynyddol yn rhoi mwy o bwysau ar fyfyrwyr, a gallai arwain at rwystro pobl rhag mynd i addysg uwch. Os yw’r Llywodraeth am annog cynifer â phosibl o bobl i fynd i addysg uwch—ac mae wedi profi ei bod am wneud hynny drwy osod targedau—oni fydd cyflwyno ffioedd yn rhwystro’r myfyrwyr hynny nad ydynt, o drwch blewyn, yn gymwys i gael grant dysgu’r Cynulliad, rhag mynd i brifysgol? Ni allwn fforddio gadael i hynny ddigwydd os ydym am sicrhau bod datblygiad economaidd a chymdeithasol Cymru yn ffynnu.

Leanne Wood: Will you give way? Leanne Wood: A wnewch chi ildio?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. He cannot, as he is running over time. Please wind up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Ni all, oherwydd mae wedi mynd dros ei amser. Dylech ddirwyn i ben.

Paul Davies: I urge the Assembly Government to fully consider the implications of its new measures and to properly address the issues surrounding the funding of the higher education sector.

Paul Davies: Anogaf Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i ystyried yn llwyr oblygiadau ei mesurau newydd ac i roi sylw priodol i’r problemau’n ymwneud â chyllido’r sector addysg uwch.

Peter Black: We have already heard from Jenny Randerson about the various manifesto commitments that we are dealing with today. Labour, in 2001, pledged that it would not introduce top-up fees and has legislated to prevent them, but we know that that pledge has been broken already. The Plaid Cymru manifesto of 2007 stated that top-up fees would continue to be ruled out, and Plaid Cymru is now breaking that manifesto promise. I put that breaking of promise at the same level as the previous Labour

Peter Black: Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed gan Jenny Randerson am yr amrywiol ymrwymiadau maniffesto yr ydym yn delio â hwy heddiw. Yn 2001 addunedodd Llafur na fyddai’n cyflwyno ffioedd atodol ac mae wedi deddfu i’w hatal, ond gwyddom fod yr adduned honno eisoes wedi ei thorri. Dywedai maniffesto Plaid Cymru yn 2007 y byddai ffioedd atodol yn dal i gael eu gwrthod, ac mae Plaid Cymru yn awr yn torri’r addewid maniffesto hwnnw. Ystyriaf fod torri’r addewid hwnnw ar yr un lefel â’r

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Government’s breaking of its promise on free care for the disabled, except that, in this case, we have not had an apology—students in Wales have not had an apology for the breaking of that promise. It seems to me that is the least that we can expect from Plaid Cymru.

torri addewid ynglŷn â gofal am ddim i’r anabl gan y Llywodraeth Lafur flaenorol, ar wahân nad ydym, yn yr achos hwn, wedi cael ymddiheuriad—nid yw myfyrwyr yng Nghymru wedi cael ymddiheuriad am dorri’r addewid hwnnw. Mae’n ymddangos i mi mai dyna’r lleiaf y gallwn ei ddisgwyl gan Blaid Cymru.

David Lloyd: Will you give way? David Lloyd: A wnewch chi ildio?

Peter Black: Are you going to apologise, Dai?

Peter Black: A ydych yn mynd i ymddiheuro, Dai?

David Lloyd: Let me take you to Scotland. When the Liberal Democrats were in Government there, the first thing that they did was to ditch the no tuition fees policy.

David Lloyd: Gadewch imi fynd â chi i’r Alban. Pan oedd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn Llywodraeth yno, y peth cyntaf a wnaethant oedd cefnu ar y polisi o ddim ffioedd hyfforddi.

Peter Black: There were no tuition fees in Scotland. As you well know, a graduate tax was introduced in Scotland, which was used entirely to fund support for poorer students. That is not the same thing as tuition fees by any stretch of the imagination. You are grasping at straws to suggest that that is comparable with the u-turn that you have performed on this issue.

Peter Black: Nid oedd ffioedd hyfforddi yn yr Alban. Fel y gwyddoch yn iawn, cyflwynwyd treth graddedigion, a ddefnyddiwyd yn llwyr i gyllido cymorth i fyfyrwyr tlotach. Nid yw hynny’r un fath â ffioedd dysgu o bell ffordd. Yr ydych yn crafangu am welltyn i awgrymu bod hynny’n cymharu â’r tro pedol yr ydych chi wedi’i wneud ar y mater hwn.

Helen Mary Jones: Will you give way? Helen Mary Jones: A wnewch chi ildio?

Peter Black: I want to make my next point, Helen.

Peter Black: Yr wyf am wneud fy mhwynt nesaf, Helen.

We talked earlier about the funding of this issue, and Jenny Randerson clearly set out what would happen if the Liberal Democrats had influence in the UK Government, and how we would get Barnett consequentials, and our commitment as a party not to have tuition fees in England and Wales. That would help the Government to do that. However, if we do not have that influence, as Jenny said, we will put into our manifesto for the next Assembly election a fully costed commitment to making money available to ensure that the tuition fee grant is restored.

Buom yn siarad yn gynharach am gyllido’r mater hwn, a dywedodd Jenny Randerson yn glir beth fyddai’n digwydd petai gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddylanwad yn Llywodraeth y DU, a’r ffordd y cawn symiau canlyniadol Barnett, a’n hymrwymiad fel plaid i beidio â chael ffioedd dysgu yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Byddai hynny’n helpu’r Llywodraeth i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, os nad oes gennym y dylanwad hwnnw, fel y dywedodd Jenny, byddwn yn rhoi ymrwymiad wedi’i gostio’n llawn yn ein maniffesto ar gyfer yr etholiad Cynulliad nesaf i ddarparu arian i sicrhau adfer y grant ffioedd dysgu.

4.50 p.m.

It is all very well for the Plaid Members sitting opposite to say that they do not have

Mae’n iawn i Aelodau Plaid sy’n eistedd gyferbyn ddweud nad oes ganddynt ddim

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any money and cannot do it. However, let us face it, you have made a political choice with regard to the funding that you already have available. There is £61 million in the current budget to fund the tuition fees grant, and you have made the choice to use some of that money to fund bursaries and some to fund the university sector. So it is not a matter of your not having the money, but a matter of your having made a choice about how you will spend the money that you already have. It is all very well your bleating, ‘We haven’t got the money’, but the fact is that you do have it; you have chosen to spend it differently. That is what we are objecting to, and that is why we have brought forward this motion to reverse that decision.

arian ac na allant ei wneud. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni wynebu hyn: yr ydych wedi gwneud dewis gwleidyddol ynglŷn â’r cyllid sydd ar gael ichi eisoes. Mae £61 miliwn yn y gyllideb gyfredol i ariannu’r grant ffioedd dysgu, ac yr ydych wedi dewis defnyddio rhywfaint o’r arian hwnnw i gyllido bwrsarïau a rhywfaint i gyllido’r sector prifysgolion. Felly, nid mater ydyw nad oes gennych yr arian, ond mater o fod wedi dewis sut y byddwch yn gwario’r arian sydd gennych yn barod. Mae’n iawn ichi gwyno ‘Nid oes gennym yr arian’, ond y ffaith yw fod yr arian gennych; yr ydych wedi dewis ei wario’n wahanol. Dyna’r ydym yn ei wrthwynebu, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi dod â’r cynnig hwn gerbron i wrthdroi’r penderfyniad hwnnw.

Bethan Jenkins: I will ask the same question of you as I asked the Conservatives. If your party were to form a coalition after 2011, would you consider reintroducing the tuition fees grant?

Bethan Jenkins: Gofynnaf yr un cwestiwn i chi ag a ofynnais i’r Ceidwadwyr. Petai eich plaid chi’n ffurfio clymblaid ar ôl 2011, a fyddech yn ystyried ailgyflwyno’r grant ffioedd dysgu?

Peter Black: Absolutely. It is a red line for us, Bethan, as I am sure it is for you as an individual. I have already made that clear in my exposition of Liberal Democrat policy.

Peter Black: Yn sicr. Mae’n llinell goch i ni, Bethan, fel yr wyf yn siŵr y mae i chithau fel unigolyn. Yr wyf eisoes wedi gwneud hynny’n glir wrth esbonio polisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

There is a clear connection between social and economic inequalities and educational inequalities. Poverty and social class have a direct impact on learning achievement, and levels of learning achievement impact in turn on living standards, health, employment and income, creating a vicious circle that is difficult to break. Those with low qualifications or none are more likely than those who have higher qualifications to be unemployed, to live in temporary or rented accommodation, and to have poor health.

Mae cysylltiad clir rhwng anghydraddoldebau cymdeithasol ac economaidd ac anghydraddoldebau addysgol. Mae tlodi a dosbarth cymdeithasol yn cael effaith uniongyrchol ar gyflawniadau dysgu, ac mae lefelau cyflawniadau dysgu yn effeithio yn eu tro ar safonau byw, iechyd, cyflogaeth ac incwm, gan greu cylch dieflig sy’n anodd ei dorri. Mae’r rheiny sydd â chymwysterau isel neu heb gymwysterau yn fwy tebygol na’r rheiny sydd â chymwysterau uwch o fod yn ddi-waith, o fyw mewn llety dros dro neu lety ar rent, ac i fod ag iechyd gwael.

The overall number of adult learners, especially those in the most educationally disadvantaged categories, has not grown significantly since 1996. In our view, the One Wales Government is being misled if it thinks that introducing higher fees is the answer to addressing inequalities in higher education. A study conducted by the Sutton Trust last year concluded that, as many of us

Drwyddi draw, nid yw nifer y dysgwyr sy’n oedolion, yn enwedig y rheiny yn y categorïau sydd dan yr anfantais fwyaf yn addysgol, wedi tyfu’n sylweddol er 1996. Yn ein barn ni mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn cael ei chamarwain os yw’n credu mai cyflwyno ffioedd uwch yw’r ateb i fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau mewn addysg uwch. Daeth astudiaeth gan Ymddiriedolaeth

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feared, tuition fees favour those from wealthier backgrounds. Nearly two thirds of those pupils who decided not to go on to higher education cited anxieties about money as the main reason for not applying.

Sutton y llynedd i’r casgliad fod ffioedd hyfforddi, fel yr ofnai nifer ohonom, yn ffafrio’r rheiny sy’n dod o gefndiroedd mwy cyfoethog. Dywedodd bron i ddwy ran o dair o’r disgyblion hynny a benderfynodd beidio â mynd i addysg uwch mai pryder ynglŷn ag arian oedd y prif reswm dros beidio â gwneud cais.

It is the fact that fees exist at all that puts people off. Most people do not understand the complex system of bursaries and grants that could be available to them—only around 18 per cent understand the system, according to research published by Staffordshire University. Unfortunately, it is usually those from poorer backgrounds who are put off. Those from wealthier backgrounds are not put off, as they are able to receive more financial support from their families, and are confident that they will be earning a comfortable salary in future. This measure to abolish the tuition fees grant will actively discriminate against poorer students in Wales, and you should be ashamed that you are going ahead with it.

Y ffaith fod ffioedd yn bodoli o gwbl sy’n codi ofn ar bobl. Nid yw’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn deall y system gymhleth o fwrsarïau a grantiau a allai fod ar gael iddynt—tua 18 y cant yn unig sy’n deall y system, yn ôl ymchwil a gyhoeddwyd gan Brifysgol Staffordshire. Yn anffodus, y rheiny o gefndiroedd tlotach sy’n cael ofn fel rheol. Ni chodir ofn ar y rheiny o gefndiroedd mwy cyfoethog, gan eu bod yn gallu cael mwy o gymorth ariannol gan eu teuluoedd, ac y maent yn hyderus y byddant yn ennill cyflog gyfforddus yn y dyfodol. Bydd y mesur hwn i ddileu’r grant ffioedd hyfforddi yn gwahaniaethu’n fwy yn erbyn myfyrwyr tlotach yng Nghymru, a dylai fod arnoch gywilydd eich bod yn bwrw ymlaen ag ef.

Jeff Cuthbert: I welcome this opportunity to speak on what is no doubt an emotive issue, as the speeches and interventions so far have shown. This issue is at the heart of the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to equality and opportunity through access to higher education. In that regard, I support the Government’s amendment, which I believe is pragmatic and progressive, in that it recognises the budgetary constraints under which we are operating in the present economic climate and sensibly seeks to overhaul the student finance system and improve support for the least well-off students in Wales. Indeed, it is worth remembering that both the HE sector and the National Union of Students have backed our proposals, creating a broad consensus for this.

Jeff Cuthbert: Croesawaf y cyfle hwn i siarad am yr hyn sy’n sicr yn fater emosiynol, fel y mae’r areithiau a’r ymyriadau hyd yma wedi ei ddangos. Mae’r mater hwn wrth galon ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gydraddoldeb a chyfle drwy fynediad i addysg uwch. Yn y cyswllt hwnnw, cefnogaf welliant y Llywodraeth, sydd yn fy marn i yn bragmatig ac yn flaengar, oherwydd mae’n cydnabod y cyfyngiadau cyllidebol yr ydym yn gweithredu danynt yn yr hinsawdd economaidd bresennol ac yn ceisio adolygu’r system cyllid myfyrwyr mewn ffordd synhwyrol a gwella’r cymorth i’r myfyrwyr lleiaf cefnog yng Nghymru. Yn wir, mae’n werth cofio bod y sector AU ac Undeb Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr wedi cefnogi ein cynigion, gan greu consensws eang o blaid hyn.

By phasing out the tuition fees grant, the Welsh Assembly Government will be investing nearly £45 million in the student finance system in order to enhance the existing Assembly learning grant. The fact that the latter will be increased to £5,000 in the 2010-11 academic year will surely act as

Drwy ddileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu yn raddol, bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn buddsoddi gwerth bron i £45 miliwn yn y system cyllid myfyrwyr er mwyn gwella grant dysgu presennol y Cynulliad. Mae’n sicr y bydd y ffaith y bydd yr olaf yn codi i £5,000 yn y flwyddyn academaidd 2010-11

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a greater encouragement to students from families with the lowest incomes to enter higher education.

yn fwy o anogaeth i fyfyrwyr o deuluoedd sydd â’r incymau isaf i fynd i addysg uwch.

Alun Cairns: Even if someone were to buy the argument that you are presenting about supporting some of the most disadvantaged people who would not normally attend university, where do you stand personally on having broken an election pledge?

Alun Cairns: Hyd yn oed petai rhywun yn derbyn y ddadl yr ydych yn ei chyflwyno am gynorthwyo rhai o’r bobl dan yr anfantais fwyaf na fyddent fel rheol yn mynd i brifysgol, ble’r ydych chi’n bersonol yn sefyll ar y ffaith eich bod wedi torri adduned etholiad?

Jeff Cuthbert: I have always taken the view that one of the greatest barriers to quality of life has been a lack of access, particularly through disadvantage and poverty, to higher education. I believe passionately that the measures that are being proposed will go a long way towards removing that inequality—that is where I stand as an individual on this matter. ‘To each according to his or her needs’ is a true socialist principle, and I am proud that we are basing our student finance support strategy on that principle, delivering on our commitments to social justice and fairness. That is the progressive part of the package.

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf wedi credu erioed mai un o’r rhwystrau mwyaf rhag ansawdd bywyd yw diffyg mynediad i addysg uwch, yn enwedig oherwydd anfantais a thlodi. Credaf yn angerddol y bydd y mesurau sy’n cael eu cynnig yn mynd ymhell i ddileu’r anghydraddoldeb hwnnw—dyna fy safbwynt fel unigolyn ar y mater hwn. Mae ‘i bawb yn ôl ei angen’ yn wir yn egwyddor sosialaidd, ac yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn seilio’n strategaeth gymorth o ran cyllid myfyrwyr ar yr egwyddor honno, gan wireddu ein hymrwymiadau i gyfiawnder cymdeithasol a thegwch. Dyna yw rhan flaengar y pecyn.

However, there is an also an element of pragmatism. To ensure a smooth transition to the new financial support regime, those students currently entitled to the existing tuition fees grant for the duration of their course of study will not have the rug pulled from under their feet. In fact, the changes will not come into effect until 2010-11, so that prospective students that are set to enter higher education in Wales this September will not find themselves at a disadvantage.

Fodd bynnag, mae yna elfen hefyd o bragmatiaeth. I sicrhau pontio esmwyth i’r gyfundrefn cymorth ariannol newydd, ni fydd y tir yn cael ei dynnu o dan draed y myfyrwyr hynny sydd â hawl ar hyn o bryd i’r grant ffioedd dysgu presennol gydol eu cwrs astudio. Yn wir, ni fydd y newidiadau’n dod i rym tan 2010-11, fel na fydd darpar fyfyrwyr a fydd yn dechrau mewn addysg uwch yng Nghymru y mis Medi hwn yn gweld eu bod dan anfantais.

Bethan Jenkins: You say that you support getting rid of the tuition fees grant, but what do you say to these statistics? In 2004, 65 per cent of people Welsh students benefited from studying in Wales, and that grew to 70.8 per cent under the current system. Do you not see that as positive for Wales?

Bethan Jenkins: Dywedwch eich bod o blaid dileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu, ond beth a ddywedwch am yr ystadegau hyn? Yn 2004, elwodd 65 y cant o fyfyrwyr Cymru o astudio yng Nghymru, a chynyddodd hynny i 70.8 y cant dan y system bresennol. Onid ydych yn gweld hynny fel rhywbeth positif i Gymru?

Jeff Cuthbert: It is positive for Wales, but it is also interesting that there is no evidence to show that students from more disadvantaged families took advantage of the grant. I want to see the link between deprivation and poverty broken through the education system, which is the best vehicle for us to do that. To

Jeff Cuthbert: Mae’n bositif i Gymru, ond mae’n ddiddorol hefyd nad oes dim tystiolaeth i ddangos bod myfyrwyr o deuluoedd sydd dan fwy o anfantais wedi manteisio ar y grant. Yr wyf am weld y cysylltiad rhwng amddifadedd a thlodi yn cael ei dorri drwy’r gyfundrefn addysg, sef y

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me, this makes sense—making the necessary changes to ensure that resources are targeted towards those with the greatest need, but also ensuring that those who benefit from the present arrangements are not left out in the cold.

cyfrwng gorau inni wneud hynny. I mi, mae hyn yn gwneud synnwyr—mae’n gwneud y newidiadau angenrheidiol i sicrhau bod adnoddau’n cael eu targedu at y rheiny y mae mwyaf eu hangen arnynt, ond mae hefyd yn sicrhau na fydd y rheiny sy’n elwa o’r trefniadau presennol yn cael eu hanwybyddu.

In education, whether primary, secondary, further or higher education, finance should not be a barrier to participation. It is why I will be supporting the Government’s amendment to the motion, as the provision of an element of debt relief will help the least well-off students to overcome the pressures that they can experience in taking up study in higher education, and upon their graduation and in future employment.

Mewn addysg, boed yn addysg gynradd, uwchradd, bellach ynteu uwch, ni ddylai cyllid fod yn rhwystr rhag cyfranogi. Dyna pam y byddaf yn cefnogi’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth i’r cynnig, gan y bydd darparu elfen o ryddhad rhag dyledion yn helpu’r myfyrwyr lleiaf cefnog i oresgyn y pwysau a all fod arnynt wrth ddechrau astudio mewn addysg uwch, ac wrth raddio ac mewn cyflogaeth yn y dyfodol.

I realise that this is an emotive and sensitive issue that is of enormous importance. The restructuring of any type of financial support during a recession is bound to be difficult at times. However, we must look beyond the short-term headlines and realise that targeting support to those in greatest need is not only a financial imperative, but also a moral imperative in these current climes.

Sylweddolaf fod hwn yn fater emosiynol a sensitif sydd o bwys enfawr. Mae ailstrwythuro unrhyw fath o gymorth ariannol yn ystod dirwasgiad yn siŵr o fod yn anodd ar adegau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni edrych y tu hwnt i benawdau tymor byr a sylweddoli bod targedu cymorth at y rheiny sydd â’r angen mwyaf nid yn unig yn rheidrwydd ariannol, ond hefyd yn rheidrwydd moesol yn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni.

Eleanor Burnham: I find that to be a bit of humbug, quite frankly, and an enormous amount of rhetoric. You are saying one thing, but the reality for most people is the complete opposite. While the criteria for people who want support are so tight, most people cannot go on in this way. I have recently read quite a lot of statistics that suggest that fewer and fewer numbers of people are choosing to go to university.

Eleanor Burnham: Rhagrith yw hynny, a bod yn gwbl onest, ynghyd â llawer iawn o rethreg. Yr ydych yn dweud un peth, ond y realiti i’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yw’r gwrthwyneb yn llwyr. Tra mae’r meini prawf i bobl sydd am gael cymorth mor dynn, ni all y rhan fwyaf o bobl barhau fel hyn. Yr wyf wedi darllen llawer o ystadegau’n ddiweddar sy’n awgrymu bod llai a llai o bobl yn dewis mynd i brifysgol.

Helen Mary Jones: Your party is on record as saying that one of this Government’s universal benefits, free prescriptions, is a shocking waste of money. Therefore, if you follow that logic through, is it also not a shocking waste of money to subsidise middle-class students to go to university?

Helen Mary Jones: Mae eich plaid ar glawr a chadw yn dweud bod un o fuddion cyffredinol y Llywodraeth hon, sef presgripsiynau am ddim i bawb, yn wastraff affwysol o arian. Felly, os dilynwch y rhesymeg honno i’r pen, onid yw hefyd yn wastraff affwysol o arian i noddi myfyrwyr dosbarth canol i fynd i brifysgol?

Eleanor Burnham: I am sorry that we have upset Plaid Cymru, because I do not like upsetting anyone—we are a little family of 60 Members. However, you have been

Eleanor Burnham: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fy mod wedi cynhyrfu Plaid Cymru, oherwydd nid wyf yn hoffi cynhyrfu neb—yr ydym yn deulu bach o 60 o Aelodau. Fodd bynnag, yr

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jumping up and down quite a lot this afternoon—clearly you are rattled. Your mismanagement of this issue is scandalous. So, that is the end of that.

ydych wedi bod yn neidio i fyny ac i lawr gryn dipyn y prynhawn yma—yn amlwg, yr ydych wedi’ch cynhyrfu. Mae eich camreoli o’r mater hwn yn waradwyddus. Felly, dyna ddiwedd arni.

In discussing university education, it is also important to consider what the Government—Plaid and Labour—is doing to decimate further education at the moment. Further education plays an important part in this, as many people use it as a bridge between school and higher education, which we are discussing at the moment. One of the main issues for me is the difficulties faced by the average 18 to 20-year-old part-time student.

Wrth drafod addysg prifysgol, mae’n bwysig hefyd ystyried yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth—Plaid a Llafur—yn ei wneud i ddifetha addysg bellach ar hyn o bryd. Mae addysg bellach yn rhan bwysig o hyn, gan fod llawer o bobl yn ei defnyddio fel pont rhwng yr ysgol ac addysg uwch, sef yr hyn yr ydym yn ei drafod ar y funud. Un o’r prif ystyriaethau i mi yw’r anawsterau sy’n wynebu’r myfyriwr rhan-amser cyffredin 18 i 20 oed.

5.00 p.m.

The Leitch and Webb reviews called for the Government to upskill the workforce. Although the number of part-time learners is set to increase, we are clearly not preparing for it, and we are not encouraging people to enter part-time higher education. The Open University is part of this, and there are many gaps in provision in Wales. Part-time students, particularly adults, are penalised by an unfair system that disproportionately favours full-time students. Many part-time students receive no support at all for their studies, and face huge financial difficulties during the course of their degree and afterwards.

Yr oedd adolygiadau Leitch a Webb yn galw ar y Llywodraeth i uwchsgilio’r gweithlu. Er bod disgwyl y bydd nifer y dysgwyr rhan amser yn codi, mae’n amlwg nad ydym yn paratoi ar gyfer hynny, ac nid ydym yn annog pobl i fynd i addysg uwch ran amser. Mae’r Brifysgol Agored yn rhan o hyn, ac mae llawer o fylchau yn y ddarpariaeth yng Nghymru. Caiff myfyrwyr rhan amser, yn enwedig oedolion, eu cosbi gan system annheg sy’n ffafrio myfyrwyr amser llawn yn ormodol. Mae nifer o fyfyrwyr rhan amser nad ydynt yn cael cymorth o gwbl ar gyfer eu hastudiaethau ac sy’n wynebu trafferthion ariannol aruthrol wrth astudio ar gyfer eu gradd ac wedyn.

Nick Bourne: I had not intended to speak in this debate, but I must say that Eleanor is absolutely right about part-time students, and about the importance of this issue. Bethan Jenkins is also right: it deters people from poorer, humbler, less advantaged backgrounds and there is no doubt about that. That is why this was included in the ‘The All-Wales Accord’, which Plaid Cymru signed up to. That is why the Plaid leader was fervent about this issue when we had negotiations—and he was fervent, as Mike German and I both know.

Nick Bourne: Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu siarad yn y ddadl hon, ond rhaid imi ddweud bod Eleanor yn llygad ei lle ynghylch myfyrwyr rhan amser, ac am bwysigrwydd y mater hwn. Mae Bethan Jenkins yn iawn hefyd: mae’n atal pobl o gefndiroedd tlotach, llai cefnog a llai breintiedig ac nid oes amheuaeth am hynny. Dyna pam y cynhwyswyd hyn yn ‘Cytundeb Cymru Gyfan’, a lofnodwyd gan Blaid Cymru. Dyna pam yr oedd arweinydd Plaid yn teimlo’n angerddol am y mater hwn pan gawsom drafodaethau—yr oedd yn angerddol, fel y gŵyr Mike German a minnau.

Eleanor Burnham: We have to look at this in light of the present economic position, because a tremendous number of parents are losing their jobs and are therefore unable to

Eleanor Burnham: Rhaid inni edrych ar hyn yng ngoleuni’r sefyllfa economaidd bresennol, gan fod nifer enfawr o rieni’n colli eu swyddi ac felly’n analluog i roi cymorth

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help their children financially as they were formerly. The majority of part-timers are studying for skills-related reasons—job progression, professional updating, career change—and the economy as it stands is putting enormous pressure on people to be extremely flexible. I do not believe that the Plaid/Labour coalition is being as flexible as it needs to be.

ariannol i’w plant fel yr oeddent o’r blaen. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o ddysgwyr rhan amser yn dysgu am resymau’n gysylltiedig â sgiliau—symud ymlaen yn eu swydd, diweddaru proffesiynol, newid gyrfa—ac y mae’r economi fel y mae yn rhoi pwysau aruthrol ar bobl i fod yn hyblyg dros ben. Ni chredaf fod y glymblaid Plaid/Llafur mor hyblyg ag y mae angen iddi fod.

Part-time learning supports people by enhancing their employability and building their key soft skills. By enabling people to continue to work and earn while they develop their skills, the flexibility of part-time learning can help people of all ages and backgrounds. Let us be frank: the UK Government wants us to continue working until we are 70. With all due respect to Rhodri, he is lucky, because he is in good health, he is compos mentis, and he is doing a very good job. [Laughter.]

Mae dysgu rhan amser yn helpu pobl drwy eu gwneud yn fwy cyflogadwy a thrwy ddatblygu eu sgiliau meddal allweddol. Drwy alluogi pobl i ddal i weithio ac ennill cyflog wrth iddynt ddatblygu eu sgiliau, mae hyblygrwydd dysgu rhan amser yn gallu helpu pobl o bob oed a chefndir. Gadewch inni fod yn blwmp ac yn blaen: mae Llywodraeth y DU am inni ddal i weithio nes inni gyrraedd 70 oed. Gyda phob dyledus barch i Rhodri, mae’n ffodus, oherwydd mae ei iechyd yn dda, mae yn ei lawn bwyll, ac mae’n gwneud gwaith da iawn. [Chwerthin.]

Jeff Cuthbert rose— Jeff Cuthbert a gododd—

Eleanor Burnham: Sorry, I do not have time.

Eleanor Burnham: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser.

Not everyone is able to work beyond the age of 65 and up to 70. I meant no disrespect to Rhodri when I said that he was compos mentis, as you all know.

Nid pawb sy’n gallu gweithio ar ôl cyrraedd 65 oed a hyd at 70 oed. Nid oeddwn yn golygu dim amarch at Rhodri pan ddywedais ei fod yn ei lawn bwyll, fel y gwyddoch i gyd.

Part-time study places additional pressures that full-time students do not have to face. Part-time students have to balance work with study while not having sufficient time to commit to either. The financial pressures can be extreme at the best of times, so the increase in fees, in our opinion, will act as a bigger deterrent to part-time students than it will to full-time students. However, the Government does not seem to recognise or appreciate their value and essential role, although they make up nearly half of all students in Wales. They cannot be sidelined in this way. The only reference to part-time students in the Minister’s statement in March was when she spoke of her concern about hidden costs such as course materials. It seems to us as Welsh Liberal Democrats that the non-hidden costs are more worrying, and it is these that will put potential part-time

Mae addysg ran amser yn rhoi pwysau ychwanegol nad oes yn rhaid i fyfyrwyr amser llawn eu hwynebu. Rhaid i fyfyrwyr rhan amser gadw’r ddysgl yn wastad rhwng gwaith ac astudio heb fod ganddynt ddigon o amser i ymroi i’r naill na’r llall. Gall y pwysau ariannol fod yn eithafol ar y gorau, felly bydd y cynnydd mewn ffioedd, yn ein barn ni, yn fwy o atalfa i fyfyrwyr rhan amser nag i fyfyrwyr amser llawn. Er hynny, nid yw’n ymddangos bod y Llywodraeth yn cydnabod nac yn sylweddoli eu gwerth a’u rôl hanfodol, er mai hwy yw bron hanner y myfyrwyr yng Nghymru. Ni ellir eu diystyru fel hyn. Yr unig gyfeiriad at fyfyrwyr rhan amser yn natganiad y Gweinidog ym mis Mawrth oedd sôn am ei phryder am gostau cudd fel defnyddiau cwrs. Mae’n ymddangos i ni fel Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru fod y costau amlwg yn achosi mwy o bryder, a’r

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students off studying. rhain a fydd yn troi darpar fyfyrwyr rhan amser oddi ar addysg.

Mark Isherwood: I attended university on a full grant because my father lost his job in 1978. A Welsh Conservatives’ motion in May 2005, to which I was pleased to speak, supported by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, defeated the minority Labour Welsh Government at the time and stopped it from introducing top-up fees for Welsh-domiciled students at Welsh universities. That was not driven by opportunism, rather by an opportunity to right a wrong and honour a promise broken by Labour Governments in London and Cardiff. As we have heard, Labour’s 2001 general election manifesto stated that:

Mark Isherwood: Cefais i grant llawn i fynd i’r brifysgol oherwydd i’m tad golli ei waith yn 1978. Yn sgil cynnig gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ym Mai 2005, yr oeddwn yn falch siarad o’i blaid ac a gefnogwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Phlaid Cymru, trechwyd Llywodraeth Cymru Lafur leiafrifol ar y pryd a’i hatal rhag cyflwyno ffioedd atodol ar gyfer myfyrwyr sydd â’u cartref yng Nghymru mewn prifysgolion yng Nghymru. Nid cyflegarwch a ysgogodd hynny, ond yn hytrach cyfle i unioni cam a chadw addewid a dorrwyd gan Lywodraethau Llafur yn Llundain a Chaerdydd. Fel y clywsom, dywedwyd ym maniffesto Llafur ar gyfer yr etholiad cyffredinol yn 2001:

‘we will not introduce top-up fees and have legislated against them’.

ni fyddwn yn cyflwyno ffioedd atodol ac yr ydym wedi deddfu yn eu herbyn.

In 2002, Rhodri Morgan told Assembly Members:

Yn 2002, dywedodd Rhodri Morgan wrth Aelodau’r Cynulliad:

‘I have made it clear since 1997 that I am not in favour of student tuition fees’.

Yr wyf wedi gwneud yn glir er 1997 nad wyf o blaid ffioedd dysgu i fyfyrwyr.

However, as in so many other areas, Labour’s duplicitous promises evaporated as hot air. No nation can nurture the best possible prospects of its people without strong, entrepreneurial and successful higher education institutions playing a major role in the development of the knowledge economy. However, Labour’s Higher Education Act 2004 was not about the evidence-based needs of young people or employers, but about broken manifesto promises and a dogmatic numbers game.

Er hynny, fel y gwelwyd mewn cynifer o feysydd eraill, aeth addewidion twyllodrus Llafur i’r gwynt. Ni all yr un genedl feithrin y rhagolygon gorau posibl i’w phobl heb fod sefydliadau addysg uwch cryf, entrepreneuraidd a llwyddiannus yn bwysig yn natblygiad yr economi wybodaeth. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd Deddf Addysg Uwch 2004 gan Lafur yn ymwneud ag anghenion pobl ifanc neu gyflogwyr ar sail tystiolaeth, ond addewidion maniffesto a dorrwyd a gêm rifau ddogmataidd.

The Labour Government expects young graduates, most of whom will be on average incomes, to mortgage their futures, burdening them with the dead weight of debt into their middle years.

Mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn disgwyl i raddedigion ifanc, y bydd y rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn cael incwm canolig, forgeisio’u dyfodol gan eu rhoi dan bwysau dyledion nes byddant yn ganol oed.

Jeff Cuthbert: I have listened carefully to what you were saying, and of course I agree that we need a strong HE sector—no-one would disagree with that. However, why is it that our proposals are supported by the HE sector and by the National Union of Students? Why is that? [Interruption.]

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf wedi gwrando’n astud ar yr hyn yr oeddech yn ei ddweud, a chytunaf, wrth gwrs, fod arnom angen sector addysg uwch cadarn—byddai pawb yn derbyn hynny. Fodd bynnag, pam y mae ein cynigion yn cael eu cefnogi gan y sector addysg uwch ac Undeb Cenedlaethol y

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‘Labour’s lackeys’, Kirsty? [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]

Myfyrwyr? Pam hynny? [Torri ar draws.] ‘Gweision bach Llafur’, Kirsty? [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

Mark Isherwood: You asked why, Jeff. It is because you have got them in financial handcuffs and because the gap in funding between Wales and England and Scotland has grown into the hundreds of millions of pounds, and so they cannot see any other way of closing that gap.

Mark Isherwood: Gofynnech pam, Jeff. Mae hynny am eich bod yn eu dal mewn cyffion ariannol ac am fod y bwlch cyllido rhwng Cymru a Lloegr a’r Alban wedi tyfu’n gannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd, ac felly ni allant weld dim un ffordd arall i gau’r bwlch hwnnw.

Today’s motion calls on the Welsh Government to reverse its decision to scrap the tuition fees grant. The repayment of tuition fees remains, only deferred until after graduation, and it is now the top-up fee that is in peril and which we mean to debate today. Labour’s amendment 1, welcoming proposals to alleviate student debt and to increase the level of resources available to higher education institutions, is a shameful sham. In reality, it is about allocating the same pot of money differently, with dogma and prejudice triumphing. It can never be fair or equitable for a higher-income graduate from a lower-income background to have less to repay than a lower-income graduate from an average-income background. I thought that all parties supported the principle that the graduate pays.

Mae’r cynnig heddiw yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wrthdroi ei phenderfyniad i ddileu’r grant ffioedd dysgu. Mae ad-dalu ffioedd dysgu yn aros, ond yn cael ei ohirio tan ar ôl graddio, a bellach y ffi atodol sydd mewn perygl ac y bwriadwn gael dadl arni heddiw. Mae gwelliant 1 gan Lafur, sy’n croesawu cynigion i liniaru dyled myfyrwyr a chodi lefel yr adnoddau sydd ar gael i sefydliadau addysg uwch, yn dwyll cywilyddus. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n ymwneud â dyrannu’r un swm o arian yn wahanol, gan roi rhwydd hynt i ddogma a rhagfarn. Ni all byth fod yn iawn neu’n deg i ŵr gradd ag incwm uwch o gefndir incwm is fod â llai i’w ad-dalu na gŵr gradd ag incwm is o gefndir incwm canolig. Yr oeddwn yn credu bod yr holl bleidiau o blaid yr egwyddor y dylai graddedigion dalu.

Independent research by Phil Brown, from Cardiff University, and Anthony Hesketh, from Lancaster University Management School found that the number of knowledge jobs will not keep pace with the number of graduates. It stated that plans for university expansion threaten to flood the labour market with hundreds of thousands of graduates who will not find jobs to repay their investment in higher education. Research by Dr Nigel O’Leary of Swansea University found that the level of increased earnings that graduates can expect over a lifetime has fallen sharply. CBI research last year found that more than 1 million UK graduates are in jobs for which they are overqualified.

Dangosodd ymchwil annibynnol gan Phil Brown, o Brifysgol Caerdydd, ac Anthony Hesketh, o Ysgol Reoli Prifysgol Caerhirfryn na fydd nifer y swyddi gwybodaeth yn cadw’n wastad â nifer y graddedigion. Dywedai fod perygl y bydd cynlluniau i ehangu prifysgolion yn gorlenwi’r farchnad lafur â channoedd o filoedd o raddedigion na fyddant yn gallu cael swyddi i ad-dalu eu buddsoddiad mewn addysg uwch. Darganfu ymchwil gan Dr Nigel O’Leary o Brifysgol Abertawe fod lefel yr enillion uwch y gall graddedigion ddisgwyl eu cael yn ystod eu hoes wedi disgyn yn sylweddol. Mewn ymchwil gan CBI y llynedd cafwyd bod mwy nag 1 filiwn o raddedigion y DU mewn swyddi y mae ganddynt ormod o gymwysterau ar eu cyfer.

We must have parity of esteem and equality of opportunity that ensures that vocational,

Rhaid inni gael parch cyfartal a chyfle cyfartal sy’n sicrhau’r un statws i addysg a

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technical and academic education and training have equal status, based on the needs of individual learners and the employment marketplace, but the further education sector is suffering cuts and a funding crisis of its own. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales identified a funding gap between higher education institutions in England and Wales of £190 million, which has emerged entirely since 2001-02, under a Labour-led Welsh Government. That gap therefore pre-dated the abolition of top-up fees for Welsh-domiciled students at Welsh universities, and it is scandalous that Labour wants to increase student debt to help it to plug that gap.

hyfforddiant galwedigaethol, technegol ac academaidd, wedi’i seilio ar anghenion dysgwyr unigol a’r farchnad swyddi, ond mae’r sector addysg bellach yn dioddef ei doriadau a’i argyfwng ariannu ei hun. Dywedodd Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru fod bwlch cyllido rhwng sefydliadau addysg uwch yng Nghymru a Lloegr o £190 miliwn sydd wedi datblygu’n llwyr er 2001-02, dan Lywodraeth Cymru sy’n cael ei harwain gan Lafur. Felly, datblygodd y bwlch hwnnw cyn dileu ffioedd atodol ar gyfer myfyrwyr sydd â’u cartref yng Nghymru ac sydd mewn prifysgolion yng Nghymru, ac mae’n warthus bod Llafur am gynyddu dyledion myfyrwyr i’w helpu i gau’r bwlch hwnnw.

The UK Government pledged to review the cap on top-up fees in 2009. If that rises, current budget cuts will frustrate any attempt to raise the top-up fee grant proportionately in Wales. That does not mean that it cannot be maintained at current levels, on a level playing field, as a universal benefit to all students. A time of recession and record debt is precisely the wrong time to be reducing the financial incentives available to students in Wales.

Addawodd Llywodraeth y DU adolygu’r cap ar ffioedd atodol yn 2009. Os bydd hwnnw’n codi, bydd y toriadau presennol yn y gyllideb yn atal unrhyw ymgais i gynyddu’r grant ffioedd atodol yn gymesur yng Nghymru. Nid yw hynny’n golygu na ellir ei gadw ar y lefelau presennol, gan drin pawb yn gyfartal, fel budd-dal cyffredinol i’r holl fyfyrwyr. Cyfnod o ddirwasgiad ac o’r dyledion mwyaf erioed yw’r union adeg pan na ddylid lleihau’r cymhellion ariannol sydd ar gael i fyfyrwyr yng Nghymru.

As is so often the way with its policies, Labour has taken a simple, meritocratic system and transformed it into a complicated and unjust mess.

Fel y gwelir yn aml yn ei pholisïau, mae Llafur wedi cymryd system feritocrataidd, syml a’i throi’n llanastr cymhleth ac anghyfiawn.

Leanne Wood: Will you take an intervention?

Leanne Wood: A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Mark Isherwood: I have no time. Mark Isherwood: Nid oes gennyf amser.

As Ieuan Wyn Jones said in November 2006, Fel y dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones ym mis Tachwedd 2006,

‘Wales is being short changed and Welsh schools and colleges are not being given the same help as their counterparts in England’.

‘Mae Cymru’n cael ei thrin yn sâl ac nid yw ysgolion a cholegau Cymru yn cael yr un help â’u cymheiriaid yn Lloegr’.

Before the last election, he also said that he would not prop up a failing Labour Government. Plaid Cymru must look to its conscience today.

Cyn yr etholiad diwethaf, dywedodd hefyd na fyddai’n cynnal Llywodraeth Lafur sy’n methu. Rhaid i Blaid Cymru archwilio ei chydwybod heddiw.

Nerys Evans: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o Aelodau yn cytuno na ddylai

Nerys Evans: I am sure most Members would agree that no-one should have to pay

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neb dalu am addysg mewn byd delfrydol. Yr ydym yn awr yn edrych ar sut y gallwn weithio tuag at gyrraedd y nod hwnnw yng Nghymru. Os edrychwn ar bolisïau Llywodraeth Cymru ar ariannu addysg uwch, gwelwn ei bod wedi cydnabod am y tro cyntaf erioed y bwlch cyllido rhwng prifysgolion Cymru a Lloegr. Er mwyn cynnal sector addysg uwch hyfyw, mae’n bwysig ariannu’r sector yn ddigonol, ac yr ydym wedi gweld y gydnabyddiaeth honno yng ngweithredoedd Llywodraeth Cymru, ac, am y tro cyntaf erioed, yn ei pholisi clir i ariannu ein sefydliadau i lefel uwch.

for an education in an ideal world. We are now looking at how we in Wales can work towards achieving that aim. If we look at the higher education funding policies of the Government of Wales, we see that it has acknowledged for the first time ever the funding gap between universities in Wales and those in England. In order to maintain a viable higher education sector, it is vital that the sector is adequately funded, and we have seen a recognition of that in the actions of the Government of Wales, and for the first time ever in its clear policy to fund our institutions to a higher level.

Mae elfennau eraill o becyn ariannu addysg uwch Llywodraeth Cymru yr ydym hefyd yn eu croesawu’n fawr. Gwyddom fod Cymru’n dioddef yn waeth na gwledydd eraill y Deyrnas Unedig o ran denu graddedigion i aros yma neu i ddychwelyd i Gymru wedi graddio. Felly, mae’r arian ychwanegol yn hanfodol iddynt. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed mwy am fanylion y cynllun hwnnw gan y Gweinidog yn y dyfodol agos.

There are other elements in the Government of Wales’s higher education funding package which we warmly welcome. We know that Wales suffers more than other nations in the United Kingdom when it comes to attracting graduates to stay here or to return to Wales after graduation. Therefore, the additional funding is essential to them. I look forward to hearing further details about that scheme from the Minister in the near future.

Gwyddom hefyd fod dyled myfyrwyr yn broblem fawr, ac mae sawl Aelod wedi crybwyll hynny eisoes. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n cyflwyno tâl lliniaru dyled o £1,500 i bob myfyriwr sy’n byw yng Nghymru, pa le bynnag y maent yn astudio. Bydd y Llywodraeth hefyd yn cynyddu grant dysgu’r Cynulliad ac yn codi’r trothwy pan fydd gofyn i gyn-fyfyrwyr ddechrau ad-dalu eu benthyciadau. Bydd hefyd yn cyflwyno cynllun bwrsari cenedlaethol, sef prif alwad Undeb Myfyrwyr Cymru.

We also know that student debt is a huge problem, and several Members have already made reference to it. The Government of Wales is introducing a debt alleviation payment of £1,500 for every student living in Wales, wherever they study. The Government is also to increase the Assembly learning grant and raise the threshold at which students will need to start repaying their loans. It will also introduce a national bursary scheme, the main demand by the National Union of Students Wales.

5.10 p.m.

Nick Bourne: I want to pick Nerys Evans up on a point that she made fairly early on in her speech about the acknowledgement of the funding gap for the first time. That is simply not true. There was an acknowledgement of the funding gap when we introduced the policy. It was well known then that there was a funding gap and it was accepted by all concerned.

Nick Bourne: Yr wyf am fynd ar ôl pwynt a wnaeth Nerys Evans tua dechrau ei haraith am gydnabod y bwlch cyllido am y tro cyntaf. Nid yw hynny’n wir o gwbl. Cydnabuwyd y bwlch cyllido pan gyflwynwyd y polisi gennym. Yr oedd yn hysbys iawn bryd hynny fod yna fwlch cyllido ac yr oedd pawb a oedd yn gysylltiedig yn derbyn hynny.

Nerys Evans: Mae’n iawn ichi ddweud hynny, ond dyma’r tro cyntaf i’r Llywodraeth weithredu ar hynny. Dyna’r pwynt. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi gweithredu ar y bwlch

Nerys Evans: It is fine for you to say that, but it is the first time the Government has taken action on that. That is the point. The Government has taken action on the funding

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cyllido ac yn rhoi arian i’r sector addysg uwch.

gap and is putting money into the higher education sector.

Mae’r holl elfennau yr wyf newydd eu crybwyll yn elfennau o bolisi Plaid Cymru. Yr wyf yn hapus eu bod bellach yn realiti gwleidyddol yn cael eu gweithredu yn y Llywodraeth. Yn dilyn y datganiad diweddar yn y Siambr, credaf fod cytundeb a chefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i’r elfennau hyn. Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus, mae’r Lib Dems heddiw wedi penderfynu canolbwyntio ar un elfen yn unig. Fel y gwelwn dro ar ôl tro, wythnos ar ôl wythnos yn y Siambr, mae’r gwrthbleidiau yn cyflwyno cynigion unllygeidiog, digyswllt, heb eu blaenoriaethu. Nid oes manylion o ran sut y byddent yn blaenoriaeth na thalu am y dyheadau. Fel y clywsom gan Alun Davies wrth iddo dorri ar draws Jenny Randerson, maent yn sôn am ariannu yn agosach at yr amser yn 2011. Beth fyddech chi’n ei wneud? Torri arian sefydliadau addysg uwch neu fwrw ymlaen a thorri arian o’r sector addysg yn gyffredinol?

All the elements which I have just mentioned are elements in Plaid Cymru policy. I am pleased that these are now a political reality, being implemented in Government. Following the recent announcement in the Chamber, I think there is cross-party agreement on, and support for, some of these elements. However, today, unfortunately, the Lib Dems have decided to concentrate on just one element. As we see time and again, week after week in the Chamber the opposition parties table motions that are short-sighted, disjointed and not prioritised. There is no detail of how you would prioritise or pay for your aspirations. As we heard in Alun Davies’s intervention to Jenny Randerson, you talk about funding closer to the time in 2011. What would you do? Cut funding for higher education institutions, or go ahead and cut money from the education budget generally?

Peter Black: Nerys, you have already heard from Jenny Randerson and me exactly how we would prioritise and pay for this. This is a choice for you, your party and the Labour Party to decide how you prioritise the money. You are using students’ money to fund the university funding gap. If you feel that way about us, how do you feel about Adam Price, who supports what we are saying?

Peter Black: Nerys, yr ydych eisoes wedi clywed gan Jenny Randerson a minnau sut yn union y byddem yn blaenoriaethu ac yn talu am hyn. Mae hyn yn ddewis i chi, i’ch plaid ac i’r Blaid Lafur i benderfynu sut y byddwch yn blaenoriaethu’r arian. Yr ydych yn defnyddio arian myfyrwyr i dalu am y bwlch cyllido rhwng prifysgolion. Os felly yr ydych yn teimlo amdanom, sut yr ydych yn teimlo am Adam Price, sydd o blaid yr hyn yr ydym yn ei ddweud?

Nerys Evans: You have said clearly that you would look at the funding in the run-up to the 2011 elections. We are talking about the here and now, and your motion, once again, is incoherent. It does not show any prioritisation, and that is why we are voting against it.

Nerys Evans: Yr ydych wedi dweud yn glir y byddech yn edrych ar y cyllid yn y cyfnod cyn etholiadau 2011. Yr ydym yn sôn am y presennol, ac mae’ch cynnig, unwaith eto, yn ddryslyd. Nid yw’n dangos dim blaenoriaethu, a dyna pam yr ydym yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn.

Nid oes ots. Mae nifer o bethau y gallai Plaid Cymru eu gwneud pe bai’n llywodraethu ar ei phen ei hunan, pe na baem ar ganol dirwasgiad ac yn wynebu toriadau yn y gyllideb o £0.5 biliwn, neu phe bai gennym senedd go iawn. Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus iawn, nid dyna’r realiti ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn gweithredu o fewn y cyfyngiadau presennol—yn ariannol ac yn gyfansoddiadol—sy’n bod am fod y

It does not matter. There are many things that Plaid Cymru would be able to do if it were in Government alone, if we were not in the middle of a recession and facing budgetary cuts of £0.5 billion, or if we had a real parliament. However, very unfortunately that is not the reality at present. The Government is acting within the current restrictions placed upon it—both financial and constitutional—which exist because the Conservatives

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Ceidwadwyr wedi cyflwyno cyfundrefn o orfod talu am addysg, ac am fod pleidleisiau Aelodau San Steffan Llafur o Gymru wedi cyflwyno ffioedd atodol yn Lloegr, sy’n effeithio ar y sector yng Nghymru. Nid ydym yn rhydd i ddilyn patrwm cyllido hollol wahanol yng Nghymru; mae cyfyngiadau arnom. Yr wyf eisiau gwneud un pwynt yn glir: gyda’r drafodaeth am gynyddu’r cap yn Lloegr, dylech chi, y Llywodraeth, fod yn gweithio tuag at roi addysg am ddim ac nid cynyddu’r gost oherwydd dyheadau prifysgolion Lloegr i godi hyd at £10,000 y flwyddyn am addysg.

introduced a system of having to pay for education, and because votes from Welsh Labour Members at Westminster introduced top-up fees in England, which affects the sector in Wales. We are not free to follow a completely different funding pattern in Wales; we are restricted. I want to make one point quite clear: with the discussion on increasing the cap in England, you, as a Government, should be working towards free education, not increasing the costs because of the aspirations of English universities to charge up to £10,000 a year for education.

On this issue, we are not going to take any lessons from the Lib Dems.

Ar y mater hwn, nid ydym am wrando ar ddim gwersi gan y Lib Dems.

Peter Black and Jenny Randerson rose— Peter Black a Jenny Randerson a gododd—

Nerys Evans: Your economic guru, Vince Cable, has said that this policy is unaffordable and many, including your leader, now advocate top-up fees. As Dai said earlier, as soon as you were in power in Scotland, you introduced top-up fees, a policy that the SNP is now trying to reverse. [Interruption.]

Nerys Evans: Mae eich gwrw economaidd, Vince Cable, wedi dweud bod y polisi hwn yn anfforddiadwy ac mae llawer, gan gynnwys eich arweinydd, yn dadlau bellach o blaid ffioedd atodol. Fel y dywedodd Dai yn gynharach, cyn gynted ag yr oeddech mewn grym yn yr Alban, cyflwynasoch ffioedd atodol, polisi y mae’r SNP yn awr yn ceisio’i wrthdroi. [Torri ar draws.]

Jenny Randerson: Will you give way? Jenny Randerson: A wnewch chi ildio?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

Nerys Evans: Most fundamentally, you had your chance to implement your policies by being—[Interruption.]

Nerys Evans: Yn y bôn, cawsoch gyfle i roi eich polisïau ar waith drwy fod—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Peter Black, I do not know what has got into you this afternoon. Sit down, please, all of you. Please do not stand and shout at people. Nerys, are you taking an intervention from anyone?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Peter Black, ni wn beth sy’n bod arnoch y prynhawn yma. Eisteddwch, os gwelwch yn dda, bob un ohonoch. Peidiwch â sefyll a gweiddi ar bobl, os gwelwch yn dda. Nerys, a ydych yn derbyn ymyriad gan unrhyw un?

Nerys Evans: I do not think that I have time. Nerys Evans: Ni chredaf fod gennyf ddigon o amser.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: You should bear in mind that your five minutes are up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Dylech gofio bod eich pum munud ar ben.

Nerys Evans: I do not have time. Most fundamentally, you had your chance to

Nerys Evans: Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser. Yn y bôn, cawsoch gyfle i roi eich

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implement your policies by being part of the Government, but you bottled it.

polisïau ar waith drwy fod yn rhan o’r Llywodraeth, ond collasoch eich hyder.

Jenny Randerson rose— Jenny Randerson a gododd—

Nerys Evans: Your policies mean nothing to the people of Wales. When you had the opportunity to implement them, you did not take it.

Nerys Evans: Nid yw eich polisïau’n golygu dim i bobl Cymru. Pan gawsoch gyfle i’w rhoi ar waith, ni wnaethoch achub arno.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Are you taking an intervention now? Your time is up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A ydych yn derbyn ymyriad yn awr? Mae eich amser ar ben.

Nerys Evans: No. Plaid policy remains the same: to help to retain graduates in Wales, to help higher education institutions, to help poorer students, and a belief in the principle that education should be free. Given the current situation, we cannot deliver on them all. Although I appreciate people who take a principled stand on the issue, the Tories’ amendment 2 flies in the face—

Nerys Evans: Nac ydwyf. Mae polisi Plaid yn dal yr un fath: helpu cadw graddedigion yng Nghymru, helpu sefydliadau addysg uwch, helpu myfyrwyr tlotach, a chred yn yr egwyddor y dylai addysg fod ar gael am ddim. O gofio’r sefyllfa bresennol, ni allwn fynd â’r maen i’r wal ar bob un ohonynt. Er fy mod yn edmygu pobl sy’n sefyll ar egwyddor ar y mater, mae gwelliant 2 y Torïaid yn groes—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You really must wind up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rhaid ichi gloi.

Nerys Evans: May I finish my last sentence? Nerys Evans: A gaf fi orffen fy mrawddeg olaf?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: No, your last sentence was three sentences ago.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Na chewch, yr oedd eich brawddeg olaf dair brawddeg yn ôl.

Jenny Randerson: In the Chamber, it is normal courtesy, is it not, when you make a statement that is actually totally wrong, to allow an intervention so that a correction can be made? I have seen Vince Cable and talked to him about this policy, and I can assure you that he has not said that it is not affordable; he has said that it is very affordable.

Jenny Randerson: Yn y Siambr, mater o gwrteisi fel arfer, onid e, pan fyddwch yn gwneud datganiad sy’n hollol anghywir, yw caniatáu ymyriad fel y gellir ei gywiro? Yr wyf wedi gweld Vince Cable ac wedi siarad ag ef am y polisi hwn, a gallaf eich sicrhau nad yw wedi dweud ei fod yn anfforddiadwy: mae wedi dweud ei fod yn fforddiadwy iawn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. It is up to individual Members to decide whether to take an intervention. No-one in the Chamber was mentioned personally. I think that you made your point very well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mater i’r Aelodau unigol yw penderfynu a gaiff rhywun ymyrryd. Ni chrybwyllwyd neb yn y Siambr yn bersonol. Credaf ichi wneud eich pwynt yn dda iawn.

Trish Law: I support this motion and I congratulate Liberal Democrat Assembly Members for their consistency in this matter. It is not out of loyalty that I support the stance of my late husband on this issue; it is out of a genuine belief that education—like

Trish Law: Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn, a llongyfarchaf Aelodau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad am eu cysondeb yn y mater hwn. Nid er mwyn bod yn driw yr wyf yn cefnogi safiad fy niweddar ŵr yn y mater hwn, ond am fy mod yn wir yn credu y

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health—should be free at the point of delivery.

dylai addysg—fel iechyd—fod ar gael am ddim yn y man darparu.

I am well aware that the vast majority of sixth-formers in my constituency do not go on to higher education, but I am a Member of the National Assembly and, as such, represent the interests of students across Wales. What we are discussing today is a matter of principle, which is why there is, according to press reports, unease among some Members on the Government backbenches.

Gwn yn iawn nad yw mwyafrif helaeth disgyblion chweched dosbarth fy etholaeth i’n mynd yn eu blaen i addysg uwch, ond yr wyf yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ac yn hynny o beth yr wyf yn cynrychioli myfyrwyr ledled Cymru. Mae’r hyn yr ydym yn ei drafod heddiw yn fater o egwyddor, a dyna pam, yn ôl adroddiadau yn y wasg, y mae anniddigrwydd ymhlith rhai Aelodau ar feinciau cefn y Llywodraeth.

In respect of grants towards tuition fees, I am opposed to means testing on the basis that there should be a universal right to free education. Let us face it, people are not means tested when it comes to prescriptions; everyone gets free prescriptions. The over 60s are not means tested when it comes to issuing passes enabling them to enjoy free bus travel. Therefore, why means-test students who want to better themselves by going on to higher education? In addition, I am not convinced that all of the significant proportion of funding referred to by the Minister will be redirected to helping students from lower income families from next year. There is, anyway, financial help available to students from low-income families.

O ran grantiau ar gyfer ffioedd dysgu, yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu prawf modd oherwydd dylai pawb gael yr hawl i gael addysg am ddim. Gadewch inni wynebu’r peth, nid yw pobl yn cael prawf modd i gael presgripsiwn; mae pawb yn cael presgripsiwn am ddim. Nid yw pobl dros 60 yn cael prawf modd i gael tocyn i deithio am ddim ar y bysiau. Felly, pam rhoi prawf modd i fyfyrwyr sydd am wella’u byd drwy fynd yn eu blaen i addysg uwch? At hynny, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi y caiff holl gyfran sylweddol y cyllid y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog ato ei ailgyfeirio i gynorthwyo myfyrwyr o deuluoedd is eu hincwm o’r flwyddyn nesaf ymlaen. Beth bynnag, mae cymorth ariannol ar gael i fyfyrwyr o deuluoedd isel eu hincwm.

I worry about the Assembly Government’s commitment to education, education, education.

Yr wyf yn poeni am ymrwymiad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i addysg, addysg, addysg.

Jeff Cuthbert rose— Jeff Cuthbert a gododd—

Trish Law: I will not give way, Jeff. I am sorry.

Trish Law: Nid wyf am ildio, Jeff, mae’n ddrwg gennyf.

Here we have the Welsh Assembly Government proposing to scrap the grant of up to £1,940 a year towards tuition fees, while earlier today I attended a meeting organised by the University and College Union, which is talking about balloting its members on industrial action if the principal of Coleg Gwent does not withdraw his threat of redundancies. What a terrible mess our further and higher education sectors are in.

Yma, mae gennym Lywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cynnig diddymu’r grant o hyd at £1,940 y flwyddyn ar gyfer ffioedd dysgu, ac eto’n gynharach heddiw euthum i gyfarfod wedi ei drefnu gan Undeb y Prifysgolion a’r Colegau, sy’n sôn am gynnal pleidlais ymhlith ei aelodau ynglŷn â gweithredu diwydiannol oni fydd pennaeth Coleg Gwent yn tynnu’n ôl ei fygythiad i ddiswyddo staff. Mae hyn yn llanastr ofnadwy yn ein sector addysg bellach a’n sector addysg uwch.

In the case of this non-means-tested subsidy, O ran y cymhorthdal hwn a roddir heb brawf

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which was historically agreed by this Assembly, albeit with a majority of one, on 24 May 2005, I urge you to retain the status quo and not go down the road of means-tested grants.

modd ac a basiwyd, er gyda mwyafrif o un, mewn pleidlais hanesyddol gan y Cynulliad hwn ar 24 Mai 2005, fe’ch anogaf i gynnal y statws quo a pheidio â mynd ar drywydd grantiau drwy brawf modd.

Alun Davies: Will you take an intervention? Alun Davies: A ganiatewch imi ymyrryd?

Trish Law: I am sorry, Alun; I have finished.

Trish Law: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Alun; yr wyf wedi gorffen.

Gareth Jones: Nid oes dwywaith bod y ddadl hon yn ymwneud ag egwyddorion sylfaenol go bwysig ym myd addysg uwch. Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed cyfeiriadau at addysg am ddim ac argaeledd addysg uwch. Mae’r gwrthbleidiau yn iawn i siarad am egwyddorion; eu problem yw cadw at yr egwyddorion hynny, wrth gwrs, fel y gwyddom.

Gareth Jones: There is no doubt that this debate is about important fundamental principles in higher education. We have already heard reference to free education and the availability of higher education. The opposition parties are right to talk of principles; as we know, their problem, of course, is keeping to those principles.

Rywsut, mae’r ddelfryd o fodel gyfun addysg uwch wedi’i dryllio; yn gyntaf, oherwydd bod y cysyniad o ffioedd dysgu bellach yn realiti ac wedi’i sefydlogi gan sefydliadau Prydain i’r fath raddau eu bod yn dibynnu arnynt am eu cynhaliaeth. Mae’n amlwg bod hyn wrth wraidd y gagendor ariannu sy’n bodoli rhwng Cymru a Lloegr, a bod hwnnw’n cynyddu. Mae benthyciadau myfyrwyr hefyd wedi eu hen sefydlu, gan ddwysáu dyled myfyrwyr. Canlyniad hyn oll yw bod addysg uwch yng Nghymru bellach yn debygol o wanychu o ran safonau a darpariaeth os derbynnir y ddadl honno o danariannu. Mae dyled myfyrwyr ar gynnydd ac yn llesteirio dyheadau i barhau ag addysg uwch i’r rhai a fyddai’n gymwys yn academaidd i wneud hynny. Mae myfyrwyr yn teimlo hyn i’r byw ac maent yn ei chael yn anodd ac yn ymwrthod ag addysg, sy’n rhywbeth trist.

Somehow, the ideal of a comprehensive higher education system has been destroyed; firstly because the concept of tuition fees is now a reality, which has been established to such a degree in British institutions that they now depend upon them. It is clear that that is at the heart of the growing funding gap that exists between England and Wales. Student loans are also well established, intensifying student debt. The result of all this is that higher education in Wales is likely to weaken in terms of standards and provision if the argument of underfunding is accepted. Student debt is increasing, stifling the aspirations of those who would be academically able to continue into higher education. Students keenly feel this, and they are turning away from education because of these difficulties, which is sad.

Beth bynnag fo’r siarad a’r sgorio gwleidyddol yma heddiw, yr hyn sydd ei angen arnom yng Nghymru, a’r hyn mae ar ein pobl ifanc ei angen, yw i’r Llywodraeth gyflwyno polisïau ariannu myfyrwyr sy’n ehangu mynediad a chyfleoedd ar adeg eithriadol o anodd yn economaidd. Nid yw hynny’n digwydd o dan yr amgylchiadau a’r amodau presennol.

Whatever is said, and whatever political point scoring goes on here today, what we need in Wales, and what our young people need, is for the Government to introduce student funding policies that widen access and opportunities at a very difficult time economically. That is not happening under current circumstances and conditions.

Mae adolygiad gan yr Athro Merfyn Jones yn argymell yn gryf y dylid newid y polisi grant

The review undertaken by Professor Merfyn Jones strongly recommends that the policy of

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ffioedd dysgu, sydd, er bod rhinwedd iddo, yn tanseilio’r nodau o ehangu mynediad a chau’r bwlch ariannu. Hefyd, mae’r polisi presennol yn dwysáu tlodi myfyrwyr—dyna’r geiriau a ddefnyddiwyd—yn enwedig ymhlith y myfyrwyr hynny o gartrefi incwm isel sy’n astudio y tu allan i Gymru.

tuition fee grants should be changed; although it has some virtue, the policy is undermining the aim of widening access while closing the funding gap. The current policy is also intensifying student poverty, especially among those students from low income households studying outside Wales.

5.20 p.m.

Er clod i Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un, mae wedi gwneud penderfyniad i fynd i’r afael â sefyllfa sydd yn amlwg i bawb yn gwaethygu’n ariannol. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi cymryd golwg trosiannol a chyfannol ar y mater hwn yn ei pholisïau a’r gwelliannau sydd gerbron. Un agwedd ar y broblem yw’r grant ffioedd dysgu—mae’n bwysig, ond un peth yn unig yw hynny. Dyna wendid dadl unochrog y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Dyna lle mae’r ddadl yn cael ei cholli. Yr ydych yn sôn am un peth ac yna’n sôn am ryw egwyddorion cyffredinol ac mae hynny’n anonest. Yr ydych wedi cael eich atgoffa o hyn drwy’r prynhawn a dyna wendid eich dadl. Byddwn i a sawl un arall yn fodlon gwrando ar y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’u cefnogi pe baent yn ddiffuant yn eu cynnig ac yn cyflwyno cynnig adeiladol sy’n ystyried dyled myfyrwyr ac yn cheisio’i datrys yn ei chyfanrwydd.

To the credit of the One Wales Government, it has resolved to tackle a financial situation that is obviously getting worse. The Government has taken a holistic overview of the situation in its policies and in today’s amendments. The tuition fee grant is one aspect of this—it is important, but it is only one element. That is the weakness in the Liberal Democrats’ one-sided argument. That is where the argument is lost. You talk of one thing before turning to some general principles, and that is dishonest. You have been reminded of this all afternoon, and that is the weakness of your argument. I, and many others, would be willing to listen to the Liberal Democrats and to support them if they were sincere in their motion, and if they put forward constructive ideas that looked at trying to deal with the issue of student debt in the round.

Peter Black rose— Peter Black a gododd—

Gareth Jones: Yr wyf ar fin gorffen, Peter. Mae gwelliannau’r Llywodraeth yn ein hatgoffa o hyn ac yn ceisio ei wneud, yn hytrach nag yn ceisio gwneud elw gwleidyddol o sefyllfa sy’n peri gofid a phryder ariannol ac addysgiadol i fyfyrwyr a’u teuluoedd.

Gareth Jones: I am about to finish, Peter. The Government amendments are a reminder of this, and are an attempt to do just that, as opposed to an attempt to make political gains from a situation which is causing financial and educational concerns for students and their families.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Before I proceed to the next speaker, I would like to remind people to be careful in the language that they use this afternoon. Think very carefully about any comments that you make.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Cyn imi fynd ymlaen at y siaradwr nesaf, hoffwn atgoffa pobl i fod yn ofalus gyda’r iaith a ddefnyddiant y prynhawn yma. Meddyliwch yn ofalus iawn am unrhyw sylwadau a wnewch.

Alun Davies: Thank you for that, Deputy Presiding Officer. [Laughter.]

Alun Davies: Diolch yn fawr ichi am hynny, Ddirprwy Lywydd. [Chwerthin.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I did not think that that was particularly funny. I was being very serious. There is no need for

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Nid oeddwn yn meddwl bod hynny’n arbennig o ddoniol. Yr oeddwn o ddifrif. Peidiwch â chwerthin dim

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you to giggle just because I called you after I made that statement.

ond oherwydd imi eich galw ar ôl imi wneud y datganiad hwnnw.

Alun Davies: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that all Members recognise what you are saying.

Alun Davies: Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Credaf fod pob Aelod yn sylweddoli’r hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud.

In many ways, this is a typical Liberal Democrat motion. It is jam today, jam tomorrow and jam the day after, with the costs borne in an unlikely and bizarre series of circumstances, ranging from a Liberal Democrat Chancellor of the Exchequer to a Liberal Democrat Government here, sometime after 2011, whereby the budget would be reordered and the money found to pay for all these things without closing a single school or hospital. Then we find halfway through the debate—

Mewn llawer ffordd, mae’r cynnig hwn yn nodweddiadol o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Jam heddiw, jam yfory a jam drennydd yw hi, a’r costau’n cael eu hysgwyddo mewn cyfres annhebygol a rhyfedd o amgylchiadau. Mae’r rheiny’n amrywio o gael Canghellor Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Trysorlys i gael Llywodraeth y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yma, rywbryd ar ôl 2011, lle byddai’r gyllideb yn cael ei had-drefnu a’r arian yn cael ei ddarganfod i dalu am yr holl bethau hyn, heb gau’r un ysgol na’r un ysbyty. Yna, gwelwn hanner ffordd drwy’r ddadl—

Alun Cairns rose— Alun Cairns a gododd—

Alun Davies: I will give way in a moment; give me a chance. Then we find that the Liberal Democrats are also conducting some sort of coalition negotiations in the middle of a debate. It is not economics and it is not serious; it is a confidence trick. That is the reality of this motion and the Liberal Democrats’ policy in relation to this issue.

Alun Davies: Ildiaf mewn munud; rhowch gyfle imi. Yna, gwelwn fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol hefyd yn cynnal rhyw fath o drafodaethau clymbleidiol yng nghanol dadl. Nid economeg yw hyn ac nid yw o ddifrif; twyll ydyw. Dyna wirionedd y cynnig hwn a pholisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng nghyswllt y mater hwn.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to Alun Davies for giving way. Far be it from me to defend the Liberal Democrats, but I do not think that they, we or anyone else need to take lectures from the Labour Party on budgeting, which got us into this mess.

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Alun Davies am ildio. Nid fy lle i yw amddiffyn y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ond ni chredaf fod angen iddynt hwy, i ni, nac i neb arall gael darlith gan y Blaid Lafur am gyllidebu, gan mai dyna sydd wedi’n rhoi yn y llanastr hwn.

Alun Davies: This Government is seeking to balance two competing, and sometimes conflicting, policy objectives—I can understand why the Tories do not understand the first objective, because they do not care about it—in order to ensure basic social justice to enable poor people to go to college and university and to benefit from an education. I can understand that you do not appreciate that, because you do not care about it. The reality is that—

Alun Davies: Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn ceisio mantoli dau amcan polisi sy’n cystadlu â’i gilydd ac sydd weithiau’n gwrthdaro—gallaf ddeall pam nad yw’r Torïaid yn deall yr amcan cyntaf, oherwydd nid ydynt yn malio amdano—er mwyn sicrhau cyfiawnder cymdeithasol sylfaenol i alluogi pobl dlawd i fynd i’r coleg ac i’r brifysgol ac i elwa o addysg. Gallaf ddeall nad ydych yn gwerthfawrogi hynny oherwydd nid ydych yn malio amdano. Y gwir yw—

Leanne Wood rose— Leanne Wood a gododd—

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Alun Davies: Please allow me another moment.

Alun Davies: Gadewch imi gael munud arall, os gwelwch yn dda.

We have to balance that objective with a second objective, which is to ensure that higher education institutions in Wales are funded to a level that will enable them to provide world-class education. The days when higher education institutions competed simply within the borders of the United Kingdom are over. You should know this. I understand that the Liberal Democrats do not understand or appreciate this. The reality is that higher education exists in an international context and if you cannot provide sufficient funding for higher education to meet the demands of the future, you are letting down not only the students whom you are talking about today but every future generation. You have to find the funding to do that, which is not easy; it is very difficult. Tough decisions have to be taken. The reality is that the Liberal Democrats are not prepared to take any of those tough decisions.

Rhaid inni fantoli’r amcan hwnnw ag ail amcan, sef sicrhau bod sefydliadau addysg uwch Cymru yn cael digon o gyllid i’w galluogi i ddarparu addysg o safon fyd-eang. Mae’r dyddiau pan fyddai sefydliadau addysg uwch yn cystadlu o fewn ffiniau’r Deyrnas Unedig yn unig ar ben. Dylech wybod hyn. Deallaf nad yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn deall nac yn gwerthfawrogi hyn. Y gwirionedd yw bod addysg uwch yn bodoli mewn cyd-destun rhyngwladol, ac oni allwch ddarparu digon o gyllid ar gyfer addysg uwch i ddiwallu gofynion y dyfodol, yr ydych yn gwneud cam nid yn unig â’r myfyrwyr yr ydych yn sôn amdanynt heddiw, ond â phob cenhedlaeth yn y dyfodol. Rhaid ichi ddod o hyd i’r arian i wneud hynny, ac nid yw’n hawdd; mae’n anodd iawn. Rhaid gwneud penderfyniadau anodd. Y gwirionedd yw nad yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn barod i wneud dim o’r penderfyniadau anodd hynny.

Leanne Wood rose— Leanne Wood a gododd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Are you taking an intervention from Leanne Wood?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi ganiatáu i Leanne Wood ymyrryd?

Alun Davies: No, I will not take an intervention.

Alun Davies: Na wnaf. Nid wyf am ganiatáu ymyriad.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: You did indicate that you would.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Awgrymasoch y byddech.

Alun Davies: Okay. Alun Davies: Iawn.

Leanne Wood: You will be aware, Alun, that Mark Drakeford, Rhodri Morgan’s special adviser, is on record as saying that progressive universalism is one aspect that characterises devolution. You are now in favour of the means test, but I know that you used to oppose it test many years ago. Could you clarify for us whether the Welsh Labour Party still sees progressive universalism as a characteristic of devolution?

Leanne Wood: Gwyddoch, Alun, fod Mark Drakeford, cynghorydd arbennig Rhodri Morgan, wedi’i gofnodi yn dweud mai un o’r agweddau sy’n nodweddu datganoli yw’r symud cynyddol at roi’r un manteision i bawb. Yr ydych yn awr o blaid y prawf modd, ond gwn eich bod yn ei wrthwynebu flynyddoedd lawer yn ôl. A allech egluro inni a yw Plaid Lafur Cymru’n dal i weld symud yn gynyddol at roi’r un manteision i bawb yn nodwedd o ddatganoli?

Alun Davies: I supported the reintroduction of the full grant when I was the president of the NUS Wales, when only 15 per cent of the

Alun Davies: Cefnogais ailgyflwyno’r grant llawn pan oeddwn yn llywydd NUS Cymru, pan nad oedd ond 15 y cant o’r boblogaeth yn

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population went to college. At the moment, that figure is more than doubling. The situation today is not comparable and, in those days, we did not have internationalisation of higher education at the same time. You are comparing two entirely different beasts. If you believe that the higher education system that exists in this country today, which will need to be funded over the next decade, is the same higher education system that existed in the 1980s, you simply do not understand higher education, and you do not understand what is happening to the economy of this country.

mynd i’r coleg. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r ffigur hwnnw’n dyblu a mwy. Nid oes modd cymharu’r sefyllfa heddiw â hynny, ac yn y dyddiau hynny nid oedd addysg uwch yn cael ei rhyngwladoli ar yr un pryd. Yr ydych yn cymharu dau greadur cwbl wahanol. Os credwch mai’r un system addysg uwch yw honno sydd gennym yn y wlad hon heddiw, system y bydd angen ei chyllido dros y degawd nesaf, â’r system addysg uwch a oedd gennym yn yr 1980au, nid ydych yn deall addysg uwch o gwbl, ac nid ydych yn deall yr hyn sy’n digwydd i economi’r wlad hon.

What I want to see the Government doing—I hope that the Minister addresses these issues when she responds to the debate—is to ensure that social justice remains at the heart of our policy and that guaranteeing access for all to higher education remains at the heart of this policy. I support the statement she made to the Assembly in November, because I saw it as a way of achieving our social policy objectives and also our education objectives, while ensuring, at the same time, that higher education can play its role in wider Welsh society. We need a higher education system that provides an engine-room for economic growth, that provides the opportunity for people to access the education that we all want to see at any time in their lives, that is for everyone, irrespective of ability to pay, and that is comparable with any international system in the future. That is why I support this policy and why I believe that the motion before us is tokenism of the worst sort.

Yr hyn yr wyf am weld y Llywodraeth yn ei wneud—gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi sylw i’r materion hyn wrth ymateb i’r ddadl—yw sicrhau bod cyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn dal wrth wraidd ein polisi a bod gwarantu bod addysg uwch ar agor i bawb yn dal wrth wraidd y polisi hwn. Cefnogaf y datganiad a wnaeth i’r Cynulliad ym mis Tachwedd, oherwydd yr oeddwn yn ei weld fel ffordd i wireddu ein hamcanion polisi cymdeithasol a’n hamcanion addysg hefyd, gan sicrhau, ar yr un pryd, y gall addysg uwch wneud ei rhan yng nghymdeithas ehangach Cymru. Mae arnom angen system addysg uwch sy’n tanio twf economaidd, ac sy’n darparu’r cyfle i bobl allu cael yr addysg yr ydym i gyd am ei gweld ar unrhyw adeg yn ystod eu hoes, sef i bawb, ni waeth am eu gallu i dalu, a system y gellir ei chymharu ag unrhyw system ryngwladol yn y dyfodol. Dyna pam yr wyf yn cefnogi’r polisi hwn, a pham yr wyf yn credu mai siarad gwag o’r math gwaethaf yw’r cynnig ger ein bron heddiw.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): The remodelled system for student finance in Wales that I set out in March is equitable, sustainable, and it meets ‘One Wales’ commitments. It is acceptable to students, the higher education sector and to the wider Welsh public. As Gareth and other Members have said, and as they know, the new scheme followed on from the recommendations of phase 1 of the higher education review, led by Professor Merfyn Jones. It is based on our ‘One Wales’ commitments to provide extra assistance for student debt, to improve support to the least well-off students, to

Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Mae’r system newydd ar gyfer cyllid myfyrwyr yng Nghymru a eglurais ym mis Mawrth yn system deg a chynaliadwy, ac mae’n cyflawni ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’. Mae’n dderbyniol i fyfyrwyr, i’r sector addysg uwch ac i’r cyhoedd ehangach yng Nghymru. Fel y mae Gareth ac Aelodau eraill wedi’i ddweud, ac fel y gwyddant, daeth y cynllun newydd yn sgil argymhellion cam 1 yn yr adolygiad o addysg uwch dan arweiniad yr Athro Merfyn Jones. Mae’n seiliedig ar ein hymrwymiadau yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ i ddarparu cymorth ychwanegol ar gyfer

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increase the number of graduates in the Welsh economy, and to provide investment in the higher education sector. We can do all of that with our new scheme.

dyledion myfyrwyr, i wella’r cymorth i’r myfyrwyr lleiaf cefnog, i gynyddu nifer y graddedigion yn economi Cymru, ac i fuddsoddi yn y sector addysg uwch. Gallwn wneud hynny i gyd gyda’n cynllun newydd.

Most importantly, these changes have been made to make the student support system more sustainable in Wales, recognising the financial context in which we are operating. Our scheme achieves so much more for Wales, bringing new investment into higher education and investment to widen participation in order to raise skill levels. The skills level is an important point for you Trish; in 2007, around 27 per cent of working-age adults were qualified to level 4 or above, but that varied from 17 per cent in Blaenau Gwent to 39 per cent in Monmouthshire, just a few miles up the road. That is an inequity that a socially responsible Government should not tolerate, and we do not intend to do so. That is why we are investing in the Heads of the Valleys university initiative, from Ebbw Vale to Merthyr Tydfil, and in their wider communities.

Yn anad dim, mae’r newidiadau hyn wedi’u gwneud er mwyn i’r system cefnogi myfyrwyr fod yn fwy cynaliadwy yng Nghymru, gan gydnabod y cyd-destun ariannol yr ydym yn gweithredu ynddo. Mae ein cynllun yn cyflawni cymaint mwy dros Gymru, gan ddod â buddsoddiad newydd i addysg uwch a buddsoddi i ehangu cyfranogiad er mwyn codi lefelau sgiliau. Mae’r lefel sgiliau’n bwynt pwysig i chi Trish; yn 2007, yr oedd gan ryw 27 y cant o oedolion o oed gweithio gymhwyster lefel 4 neu uwch, ond yr oedd hwnnw’n amrywio o 17 y cant ym Mlaenau Gwent i 39 y cant yn sir Fynwy, nad yw ond ychydig filltiroedd i ffwrdd. Mae’r annhegwch hwnnw’n un na ddylai Llywodraeth sy’n gymdeithasol gyfrifol ei oddef, ac ni fwriadwn wneud hynny. Dyna pam yr ydym yn buddsoddi yng nghynllun prifysgol Blaenau’r Cymoedd, o Lynebwy i Ferthyr Tudful, ac yn eu cymunedau ehangach.

As Jeff and Alun said, the new higher education student finance scheme is at the heart of our commitment to equality of opportunity. Trish, if you look at the figures, there is no evidence to suggest that the tuition fee grant has made a significant difference in encouraging students from lower-income households to enter higher education. In fact, 40 per cent of those who receive the tuition fee grant are not eligible for Assembly learning grants; they are not in the bracket to benefit.

Fel y dywedodd Jeff ac Alun, mae’r cynllun cyllid newydd i fyfyrwyr addysg uwch wrth wraidd ein hymrwymiad i gyfle cyfartal. Trish, os edrychwch ar y ffigurau, nid oes tystiolaeth i awgrymu bod y grant ffioedd dysgu wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol o ran annog myfyrwyr o aelwydydd is eu hincwm i fynd i addysg uwch. A dweud y gwir, nid yw 40 y cant o’r rheiny sy’n cael y grant ffioedd dysgu yn gymwys i gael grant dysgu’r Cynulliad; nid ydynt yn y grŵp a all elwa ohono.

Bethan Jenkins: I am sorry, Minister, but that is misleading. Universities UK admitted the success of the tuition fee grant, and said that that trend would be expected to continue because of the rise in those studying in Wales who were from Wales, due to that policy.

Bethan Jenkins: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Weinidog, ond mae hynny’n gamarweiniol. Cyfaddefodd Prifysgolion y DU fod y grant ffioedd dysgu yn llwyddiant, a dywedodd y disgwylid i’r duedd honno barhau oherwydd bod nifer y myfyrwyr o Gymru sy’n astudio yng Nghymru yn cynyddu, oherwydd y polisi hwnnw.

Jane Hutt: I am sure that you would agree that, as a responsible, socially just Government, we have to redress that inequity inequity in the skills levels. We can do that

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddech yn cytuno, a ninnau’n Llywodraeth gyfrifol, a chymdeithasol gyfiawn, ei bod yn rhaid inni wneud iawn am yr annhegwch hwnnw yn y

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only by ensuring that we target the finance at those who most need it.

lefel sgiliau. Dim ond drwy sicrhau ein bod yn targedu’r arian at y rhai y mae mwyaf ei angen arnynt y gallwn sicrhau hynny.

5.30 p.m.

Eleanor, I recognise that part-time higher education is critically important to widening access. The tuition fees grant has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting those in part-time higher education, but, of course, Professor Merfyn Jones is looking at this issue in phase 2.

Eleanor, yr wyf yn cydnabod bod addysg uwch ran amser yn allweddol bwysig i ehangu mynediad. Nid oes a wnelo’r grant ffioedd dysgu ddim oll â chefnogi’r rhai sydd mewn addysg uwch ran amser. Ond wrth gwrs, y mae’r Athro Merfyn Jones yn ystyried y mater hwn yng nghyfnod 2.

Peter Black: Do you not accept the independent evidence that shows that the introduction of means-tested tuition fees discriminates against poorer students because they are put off from applying?

Peter Black: Onid ydych yn derbyn y dystiolaeth annibynnol sy’n dangos bod cyflwyno ffioedd dysgu sy’n amodol ar brawf modd yn gwahaniaethu yn erbyn myfyrwyr tlotach drwy achosi iddynt beidio ag ymgeisio.

Jane Hutt: We will address the situation through our new scheme, which will enable £44 million to be reinvested in the student finance scheme. It will enhance the Assembly learning grant. I am sure that you would agree, Peter, that raising the level of the full Assembly learning grant from £2,906—as Jeff said—to £5,000 will have a particular impact on students from families with the lowest incomes. We will also raise the household income threshold by about £10,000. It is important that we recognise what you want to scrap in trying to turn this around. What does this mean for our full-time undergraduate students? We will not change the eligibility of existing grants and loans for any students who are currently entitled to the tuition fees grant, nor will the new system impact on entitlement for students entering higher education this September, for example. Change would be phased in for students from the start of the 2010-11 academic year.

Jane Hutt: Byddwn yn mynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa drwy ein cynllun newydd, a fydd yn caniatáu buddsoddi £44 miliwn yn y cynllun cyllid myfyrwyr. Bydd yn cryfhau grant dysgu’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddech yn cytuno, Peter, y bydd codi lefel grant dysgu llawn y Cynulliad o £2,906—fel y dywedodd Jeff—i £5,000 yn cael effaith arbennig ar fyfyrwyr o deuluoedd ar yr incwm isaf. Byddwn hefyd yn codi trothwy incwm aelwydydd o ryw £10,000. Mae’n bwysig inni gydnabod yr hyn yr ydych am ei ddileu wrth geisio datrys hyn. Beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu i’n hisraddedigion amser llawn? Ni fyddwn yn newid cymhwysedd grantiau a benthyciadau presennol ar gyfer unrhyw fyfyrwyr sydd â hawl i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu, ac ni fydd y system newydd yn effeithio ychwaith ar hawliau myfyrwyr sy’n dechrau mewn addysg uwch ym mis Medi eleni, er enghraifft. Byddai newid yn cael ei gyflwyno ar gyfer myfyrwyr o ddechrau blwyddyn academaidd 2010-11.

As a result of these changes, from 2010, £44 million will be reinvested in the student finance system to ensure that we can then meet the needs of those students who are currently studying outside Wales who are not entitled to the tuition fees grant. I have received letters from Conservative Assembly Members in this Chamber, who have written to me to tell me how upset some of their constituents are because they are studying in

O ganlyniad i’r newidiadau hyn, o 2010 bydd £44 miliwn yn cael ei ail-fuddsoddi yn y system cyllid myfyrwyr i sicrhau y byddwn wedyn yn gallu diwallu anghenion y myfyrwyr hynny sydd ar hyn o bryd yn astudio y tu allan i Gymru a heb hawl i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu. Yr wyf wedi cael llythyrau gan Aelodau Cynulliad Ceidwadol yn y Siambr hon, a ysgrifennodd ataf i ddweud mor ofidus yw rhai o’u hetholwyr

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England and are not entitled to the tuition fees grant. In fact, I received a letter from Nick Ramsay dated 12 March, which says that his constituent feels that his son is being penalised, particularly because it was his wish to study in Wales.

oherwydd eu bod yn astudio yn Lloegr a heb hawl i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu. Mewn gwirionedd, cefais lythyr, dyddiedig 12 Mawrth, oddi wrth Nick Ramsay yn dweud bod ei etholwr yn teimlo bod ei fab yn cael ei gosbi, yn arbennig oherwydd ei fod yn dymuno astudio yng Nghymru.

Jonathan Morgan: I would like to raise a point of order. Deputy Presiding Officer, I would like you to offer some guidance as to whether it is appropriate for an Assembly Minister to make reference to private correspondence between an Assembly Member and her office in her capacity as a Minister where that Member has raised specific concerns about his or her constituent. It is inappropriate.

Jonathan Morgan: Hoffwn godi pwynt o drefn. Ddirprwy Lywydd, hoffwn ichi gynnig arweiniad a dweud a yw’n briodol i Weinidog y Cynulliad gyfeirio at ohebiaeth breifat rhwng Aelod Cynulliad a’i swyddfa yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel Gweinidog pan fo’r Aelod hwnnw wedi mynegi pryderon penodol ynglŷn â’i etholwr ef neu hi. Mae’n amhriodol.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: We would prefer you not to do that, Minister.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Byddai’n well gennym ichi beidio â gwneud hynny, Weinidog.

Jane Hutt: May I just remind you of the distortions of the current system?

Jane Hutt: A gaf eich atgoffa am anghysondebau’r system bresennol?

Nick Bourne rose— Nick Bourne a gododd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, are you giving way?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Weinidog, a ydych yn ildio?

Jane Hutt: I will give way in a minute. Jane Hutt: Byddaf yn ildio mewn munud.

In 2007-08, there were over 22,000 awards of tuition fees grants to Welsh and EU-domiciled students. With the inclusion of non-EU students, it rose to £2.7 million in 2008-09. It goes back to the point that I have just made: Welsh students studying outside Wales were not entitled to the tuition fees grant. Do you think that it is fair that over 17,000 Welsh students studying outside Wales are not entitled to the tuition fees grant? Of these, 200 were studying veterinary science, which they cannot study in Wales, 1,400 were studying medicine and dentistry and 1,700 were studying subjects allied to medicine. None of them was eligible for the tuition fees grant.

Yn 2007-08, yr oedd dros 22,000 o ddyfarniadau ffioedd dysgu i fyfyrwyr sy’n hanu o Gymru a’r UE. Gan gynnwys myfyrwyr nad ydynt o’r UE, cododd i £2.7 miliwn yn 2008-09. Mae’n mynd yn ôl at y pwynt a wneuthum gynnau: nid oedd gan fyfyrwyr o Gymru a oedd yn astudio y tu allan i Gymru hawl i gael y grantiau ffioedd dysgu. A ydych yn credu ei bod yn deg nad oes gan dros 17,000 o fyfyrwyr o Gymru sy’n astudio y tu allan i Gymru hawl i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu? O blith y rhain, yr oedd 200 yn astudio gwyddoniaeth filfeddygol, na allant ei hastudio yng Nghymru, yr oedd 1,400 yn astudio meddygaeth a deintyddiaeth ac yr oedd 1,700 yn astudio pynciau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth. Nid oedd yr un ohonynt yn gymwys i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu.

Nick Bourne: On that very point, the Minister has discussed this in some detail

Nick Bourne: Ar yr union bwynt hwnnw, mae’r Gweinidog wedi trafod hyn yn weddol

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with the First Minister and with other party leaders because we wanted to do something about it but were unable to do so for legal reasons. However, it is no fairer to scrap the grant for the Welsh students studying in Wales on courses that they perhaps could study in England and who are studying in Wales because they do not have to pay top-up fees. Therefore, do not give us that because it does not hold water.

fanwl gyda’r Prif Weinidog ac arweinwyr pleidiau eraill oherwydd yr oeddem am wneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â’r mater, ond ni allem am resymau cyfreithiol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw ronyn yn decach diddymu’r grant i’r myfyrwyr o Gymru sy’n astudio yng Nghymru ar gyrsiau y gallent efallai eu hastudio yn Lloegr ac sy’n astudio yng Nghymru am nad yw’n rhaid iddynt dalu’r ffioedd atodol. Felly, peidiwch â sôn am hynny oherwydd nid yw’n dal dŵr.

Jane Hutt: That is a very weak response to those 17,000 students who are currently studying in England and who are not entitled to the tuition fees grant, including those lower income students who get only half of the enhanced learning grant.

Jane Hutt: Mae hynny’n ymateb gwan iawn i’r 17,000 o fyfyrwyr sy’n astudio yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd ac sydd heb hawl i gael y grant ffioedd dysgu, gan gynnwys y myfyrwyr incwm is hynny sy’n cael dim ond hanner y grant dysgu estynedig.

Alun Cairns rose— Alun Cairns a gododd—

Jane Hutt: I will give way in a minute. Jane Hutt: Byddaf yn ildio mewn munud.

Do you also want to scrap the opportunity—which Jenny, Gareth and Paul welcomed—to have a student debt-relief scheme? This is a uniquely Welsh element in our system of student support. Do you want to scrap this new, innovative scheme and do you want to scrap the £1 million that we wish to put aside for a new graduate recruitment scheme? We can do all of this and you know that your arguments do not stack up. Our new system will release £31 million each year for the higher education sector. As Nerys said, we are tackling the funding needs of our higher education sector. The opposition just likes to talk about it. They will not deliver the higher education investment. They love to talk about it because it is opportunistic and tokenistic. They do not want to fund the national bursary framework, which the NUS wants nor do they want to fund the coleg ffederal or the Heads of the Valleys university initiative.

A ydych hefyd am ddileu’r cyfle—a groesawyd gan Jenny, Gareth a Paul—i gael cynllun rhyddhau dyledion myfyrwyr? Mae hon yn elfen Gymreig unigryw yn ein system o gefnogi myfyrwyr. A ydych am ddileu’r cynllun newydd, arloesol hwn ac a ydych am ddileu’r £1 filiwn yr ydym am ei roi o’r neilltu ar gyfer cynllun newydd i recriwtio myfyrwyr? Gallwn wneud hyn i gyd, a gwyddoch nad yw eich dadleuon yn dal dŵr. Bydd ein system newydd yn rhyddhau £31 miliwn bob blwyddyn ar gyfer y sector addysg uwch. Fel y dywedodd Nerys, yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael ag anghenion ariannu ein sector addysg uwch. Dim ond hoffi siarad am hynny y mae’r wrthblaid. Ni fyddant yn darparu’r buddsoddiad addysg uwch. Maent yn hoffi siarad amdano am fod hynny’n fanteisgar ac yn symbolaidd. Nid ydynt am gyllido’r fframwaith bwrsariaeth cenedlaethol y mae’r UCM am ei weld, ac nid ydynt am ariannu’r coleg ffederal na menter prifysgol Blaenau’r Cymoedd.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to you for giving way. I wish to make two points. First, I have written to you about a constituent who wanted to study veterinary science. The commitment at the time was that the Welsh Assembly Government would fund courses that were not available in Wales. There may

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ildio. Dymunaf wneud dau bwynt. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu atoch ynglŷn ag etholwr sydd am astudio gwyddoniaeth filfeddygol. Yr ymrwymiad ar y pryd oedd y byddai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ariannu cyrsiau nad oeddent ar gael yng Nghymru.

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have been legal issues since then, but that was recognised on a cross-party basis. Secondly, after the rhetorical lecture that we have just heard, where does your manifesto pledge feature in your speech?

Gall fod materion cyfreithiol wedi codi ers hynny, ond cydnabuwyd hynny ar draws y pleidiau. Yn ail, wedi’r ddarlith rethregol yr ydym newydd ei chlywed, ym mhle yn eich araith y rhoddir sylw i adduned eich maniffesto?

Jane Hutt: We promised to find a way to support those students who cannot study the subjects of their choice in Wales, but you will not seek to do so. You will certainly not support those lower income sector students. I believe that socialism is the language of priorities and we know what our priorities are. The only alternative to the approach that I have outlined—which also reduces the impact of student fees, addressed in your amendment, while retaining the level of funding per capita—would require a significant cut in student numbers. That is what the opposition parties have not been prepared to face up to today—they would have to cut student numbers at a time when the Welsh economy needs those higher skills. If that is what the Liberal Democrats and Welsh Conservatives want, perhaps they would like to join Mr Tony Little, headmaster of Eton, who was happy to state in The Daily Telegraph on Saturday that too many people go to university, but that he was content with a quarter of his boys—around 28,500—going to Oxbridge universities and the rest going to leading universities around the world. That is what the Welsh Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats want.

Jane Hutt: Addawsom ddod o hyd i ffordd i gefnogi’r myfyrwyr hynny na allant astudio’u dewis bynciau yng Nghymru, ond ni fyddwch yn ceisio gwneud hynny. Yn sicr ni fyddwch yn cefnogi’r myfyrwyr hynny o’r sector incwm is. Credaf mai iaith blaenoriaethau yw sosialaeth, a gwyddom beth yw ein blaenoriaethau. Byddai’r unig ddewis arall yn lle’r dull a amlinellais—sydd hefyd yn lleihau effaith ffioedd myfyrwyr yr aed i’r afael â hwy yn eich gwelliant, gan gadw lefel yr ariannu y pen—yn gofyn am ostyngiad sylweddol mewn niferoedd myfyrwyr. Dyna’r hyn nad yw’r gwrthbleidiau wedi bod yn fodlon ei wynebu heddiw—byddai’n rhaid iddynt ostwng niferoedd myfyrwyr ar adeg pan fydd angen y sgiliau uwch hynny ar economi Cymru. Os dyna y mae ar y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ei eisiau, efallai yr hoffent ymuno â Mr Tony Little, pennaeth Eton, a oedd yn fodlon dweud yn The Daily Telegraph ddydd Sadwrn fod gormod o bobl yn mynd i’r brifysgol, ond ei fod yn fodlon bod chwarter ei fechgyn—tua 28,500—yn mynd i brifysgolion Oxbridge a bod y gweddill yn mynd i brifysgolion blaenllaw o gwmpas y byd. Dyna y maea ar y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ei eisiau.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Could you wind up please, Minister?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A allech ddirwyn i ben, Weinidog?

Jane Hutt: I urge you to support the amendment tabled by the Government today. Be responsible, representative and, above all, be fair. Clearly, the opposition is not in favour of those objectives.

Jane Hutt: Yr wyf yn eich annog i gefnogi’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth heddiw. Byddwch yn gyfrifol, yn gynrychioliadol, ac uwchlaw popeth byddwch yn deg. Yn amlwg, nid yw’r wrthblaid o blaid yr amcanion hynny.

Kirsty Williams: I begin by thanking all colleagues who participated in this afternoon’s debate. Jenny Randerson and those who are supporting the motion this afternoon explained the history of the decision that got us to the place where we tried our best to mitigate the harmful effects of tuition fees in Wales. We heard about the

Kirsty Williams: Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i’m holl gyd-Aelodau a gymerodd ran yn y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Esboniodd Jenny Randerson a’r rhai sy’n cefnogi’r cynnig y prynhawn yma hanes y penderfyniad a’n harweiniodd i’r fan lle’r oeddem yn gwneud ein gorau i liniaru effeithiau niweidiol ffioedd dysgu yng Nghymru. Clywsom am

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effect of those tuition fees on students, particularly those from the poorest backgrounds who are put off from applying for higher education. Graduate debt has grown hugely since the Labour Party came to power. We are aware of the important contribution that higher education plays in the economic development of our country and if we have the aspiration to make Wales a truly learning country, then we need people from all walks of life to go into higher education.

effaith y ffioedd dysgu hynny ar fyfyrwyr, yn arbennig y rheiny o’r cefndiroedd tlotaf y terfir arnynt rhag ymgeisio am addysg uwch. Mae dyledion graddedigion wedi tyfu’n aruthrol ers i’r Blaid Lafur ddod i rym. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r cyfraniad pwysig a wneir gan addysg uwch yn natblygiad economaidd ein gwlad, ac os yw’r dyhead gennym i wneud Cymru’n wlad sy’n dysgu yn wirioneddol, yna mae arnom angen pobl o bob cefndir i fynd i mewn i addysg uwch.

Behind those statistics and the argy-bargy that we have had this afternoon, I will share with you an e-mail, not from a constituent of mine, but from a lady who resides in Newport. She says,

Y tu ôl i’r ystadegau hynny a’r taeru a gawsom y prynhawn yma, fe rannaf e-bost â chi, nid gan un o’m hetholwyr, ond gan wraig sy’n byw yng Nghasnewydd. Meddai,

‘Dear Kirsty, I have just discovered that Jane Hutt has announced an end to the Welsh university tuition fees grant. I am devastated. This grant was the foundation of our family plan. We managed to move back home to Wales two years ago, which was a huge upheaval, long wanted, but difficult to do. A big part of our plan was the Assembly grant that meant that my son can go to university.’

Annwyl Kirsty, Yr wyf newydd glywed bod Jane Hutt wedi datgan bod grant ffioedd dysgu prifysgol Cymru yn dod i ben. Yr wyf yn wynebu trallod. Y grant hwn oedd sylfaen ein cynllun teuluol. Llwyddasom i symud yn ôl i Gymru ddwy flynedd yn ôl, symudiad a fu’n gyffro mawr, wedi’i ddymuno ers tro, ond yn anodd ei wneud. Rhan fawr o’n cynllun oedd grant y Cynulliad, a olygai y gallai fy mab fynd i brifysgol.

She says that a degree was ‘vital’ to him, and that he

Dywed fod gradd yn ‘hanfodol’ iddo, a bod arno

5.40 p.m.

‘wants to continue the family business and look after me later on…We’ve been kicked in the teeth. I’ve been saving carefully and by 2011 when he’ll start I would have had his fees ready under the current system. Now we’re in a frightening state of uncertainty…This is not helping a careful provident family like us…If my reaction of distress can help you in publicly condemning this stupid move, please use it.’

eisiau parhau â busnes y teulu a gofalu amdanaf ymhellach ymlaen... Cawsom ein sarhau. Bûm yn cynilo’n ofalus ac erbyn 2011 pan fydd yn dechrau byddwn wedi cael ei ffioedd yn barod dan y system bresennol. Yn awr yr ydym mewn stad ddychrynllyd o ansicrwydd…Nid yw hyn yn helpu teulu gofalus, darbodus fel ni…Os gall fy ymateb trallodus eich helpu i gondemnio’n gyhoeddus y symudiad twp hwn, defnyddiwch ef.

The contributions from the Labour Members today were to be expected, of course, because the Labour Party was dragged, kicking and screaming, to this situation in the first place. Therefore, the contributions of Jeff and Alun were unexceptionable and unremarkable, but oh so predictable. However, it is the attitude—

Yr oedd cyfraniadau’r Aelodau Llafur heddiw i’w disgwyl, wrth gwrs, oherwydd i’r Blaid Lafur gael ei llusgo, yn cicio a sgrechian, i’r sefyllfa hon yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, yr oedd cyfraniadau Jeff ac Alun yn ddigon diniwed a chwbl ddi-nod, ond o mor rhagweladwy. Fodd bynnag, dyna yw agwedd—

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Jeff Cuthbert: Kirsty, when I intervened earlier on Mark Isherwood, asking him why the HE sector is supporting WAG’s proposals, I am fairly sure that I heard you say, ‘Labour’s lackeys’. I am sure that you did. Would you like to explain what you meant by that?

Jeff Cuthbert: Kirsty, yn fy ymyriad cynharach ar Mark Isherwood, yn gofyn iddo pam y mae’r sector addysg uwch yn cefnogi cynigion Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yr wyf yn weddol sicr imi eich clywed yn dweud, ‘Gweision bach i’r Blaid Lafur’. Yr wyf yn sicr ichi ddweud hynny. A hoffech egluro beth yr oeddech yn ei olygu?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Before you respond to that, that was said from a sedentary position and therefore it will not have been recorded in the Record of Proceedings.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Cyn ichi ymateb i hynny, dywedwyd hynny gan Aelod o’i sedd ac felly ni fydd wedi’i gofnodi yng Nghofnod y Trafodion.

Jeff Cuthbert: I am asking for clarity. Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf yn gofyn am eglurder.

Kirsty Williams: Jeff, it is quite clear why the HE sector supports your plans: it is desperate to see the funding gap that you have presided over being filled up. Of course, it is going to support it; it is not going to turn away extra money.

Kirsty Williams: Jeff, mae’n ddigon eglur pam y mae’r sector addysg uwch yn cefnogi’ch cynlluniau: mae’n daer am weld y bwlch cyllido yr oeddech yn llywyddu drosto yn cael ei lenwi. Wrth gwrs, y mae’n mynd i’w gefnogi; nid yw’n mynd i wrthod arian ychwanegol.

I would like to turn my attention to Plaid Cymru. It is the attitude of Plaid Cymru in this debate that amazes me. After all, you would have thought that it was Plaid Cymru policy to adopt tuition fees because that is what they have been arguing all afternoon, but that is obviously not the case—Plaid Cymru policy is actually to oppose tuition fees. Surely, we could have expected more robust arguments from them than, ‘We don’t have the Minister’, ‘We can’t control the agenda’, ‘The money can’t be found’, ‘It’s London’s fault’, or, ‘It’s the recession’. In the case of Nerys Evans, for whom I usually have a great deal of respect, they were complete untruths. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: Oh.] It seems to me that Nerys’s promotion to the front bench has knocked every bit of independent thought out of her contribution this afternoon. Let us remember that this decision was not a necessary compromise as part of entering the coalition—it was not part of the deal that they signed up to. The decision to abandon their commitments and principles on this policy was entered into voluntarily, and it seems, enthusiastically. Rhodri Morgan said, ‘Jump’, and Ieuan Wyn asked, ‘How high?’. Let us face it; he has had

Hoffwn droi fy sylw at Blaid Cymru. Agwedd Plaid Cymru yn y ddadl hon sy’n fy rhyfeddu. Wedi’r cyfan, byddech wedi meddwl mai polisi Plaid Cymru fyddai mabwysiadu ffioedd dysgu gan mai hynny fu eu dadl drwy’r prynhawn, ond mae’n amlwg nad yw hynny’n wir—polisi Plaid Cymru mewn gwirionedd yw gwrthwynebu ffioedd dysgu. Yn sicr ddigon, gallem fod wedi disgwyl dadleuon cadarnach ganddynt na ‘Nid yw’r Gweinidog gennym’, ‘Ni allwn reoli’r agenda’, ‘Ni ellir dod o hyd i’r arian’, ‘Bai Llundain yw hyn’, neu ‘Y dirwasgiad yw hyn’. Yn achos Nerys Evans, y mae gennyf barch mawr ati fel rheol, yr oeddent yn anwireddau llwyr. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: O.] Ymddengys imi fod dyrchafiad Nerys i’r fainc flaen wedi bwrw pob mymryn o feddwl annibynnol allan o’i chyfraniad y prynhawn yma. Gadewch inni gofio nad cyfaddawd angenrheidiol oedd y penderfyniad hwn fel rhan o fynd i mewn i’r glymblaid—nid oedd yn rhan o’r fargen a gytunwyd ganddynt. Yr oedd y penderfyniad i ymadael â’u hymrwymiadau a’u hegwyddorion ar y polisi hwn yn weithred wirfoddol ganddynt, ac mae’n ymddangos yn frwdfrydig. Dywedodd Rhodri Morgan,

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plenty of practice in doing that during the last two years. Plaid Cymru once depicted Welsh Labour as the poodle of London politics. What a sorry scene we have here today: a Labour poodle with its Plaid poodle puppy, beautifully house-trained and obedient, but something of an ornament only. Look out, Crufts, we are sending you a winner.

‘Neidiwch’, a gofynnodd Ieuan Wyn ‘Pa mor uchel?’ Gadewch inni wynebu hyn; mae wedi cael digon o ymarfer i wneud hynny yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Darluniodd Plaid Cymru Lafur Cymru un tro fel pwdl gwleidyddiaeth Llundain. Y fath olygfa druenus a welwn yma heddiw: pwdl Llafur gyda’i gi bach o bwdl Plaid, wedi’i hyfforddi i fod yn hyfryd lân yn y tŷ ac yn ufudd, ond yn dipyn o addurn yn unig. Gwyliwch Crufts, yr ydym yn anfon atoch ein henillydd.

This afternoon, we can turn our backs on students, we can turn our backs on the most deprived of our young people who will undoubtedly be put off from applying for higher education, we can turn our backs on Mrs Morgain and her son—

Y prynhawn yma, gallwn droi ein cefnau ar fyfyrwyr, gallwn droi ein cefnau ar ein pobl ifanc fwyaf difreintiedig y terfir arnynt yn ddiamau rhag ymgeisio am addysg uwch, gallwn droi ein cefnau ar Mrs Morgain a’i mab—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Can you wind up, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A allwch ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

Kirsty Williams: We can turn our backs on the election manifesto commitments and pledges that we made to the people of Wales or we can support a system that helped the vast majority of people in this room to get a degree.

Kirsty Williams: Gallwn droi ein cefnau ar ymrwymiadau ac addewidion y maniffesto etholiadol a wnaethom i bobl Cymru, neu gallwn gefnogi system a helpodd y mwyafrif llethol o bobl yn yr ystafell hon i gael gradd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Can you wind up, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A allwch ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

Kirsty Williams: We can pull the ladder up or we can afford that opportunity to people in Wales.

Kirsty Williams: Gallwn godi’r ysgol neu gallwn roi’r cyfle hwnnw i bobl yng Nghymru.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion without amendment be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is. Therefore, the votes will be deferred until voting time. It is now past 5 p.m. and therefore I will move straight to the voting.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. Felly, gohiriwn y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. Mae hi wedi troi 5 p.m. ac felly af yn syth i’r pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Cynnig NDM4210: O blaid 8, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 41.Motion NDM4210: For 8, Abstain 0, Against 41.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

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Bourne, NickCairns, AlunDavies, PaulIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanWilliams, Brynle

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4210: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 10.Amendment 1 to NDM4210: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 10.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, Chris

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Brynle

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German, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4210: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 34.Amendment 2 to NDM4210: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 34.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, Carl

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Thomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Motion NDM4210 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4210 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

supports clearer country of origin food labelling.

yn cefnogi dangos yn gliriach ar labeli y wlad lle tarddodd y bwyd.

Cynnig NDM4210 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 9.Motion NDM4210 as amended: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 9.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickWilliams, Brynle

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM4210 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4210 as amended agreed.

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Cynnig NDM4211: O blaid 17, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 33.Motion NDM4211: For 17, Abstain 0, Against 33.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelIsherwood, MarkJenkins, BethanMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4211: O blaid 31, Ymatal 2, Yn erbyn 16.Amendment 1 to NDM4211: For 31, Abstain 2, Against 16.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, Lesley

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, Jenny

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Hutt, JaneJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Williams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Jenkins, BethanWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment agreed.

Cafodd gwelliant 2 ei ddad-dethol.Amendment 2 deselected.

Motion NDM4211 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4211 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. recognises the budgetary constraints under which the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy on student tuition fees has been developed and has to operate;

1. yn cydnabod y cyfyngiadau ar y gyllideb a ddefnyddiwyd wrth ddatblygu polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar ffioedd dysgu myfyrwyr ac yn gorfod gweithredu oddi tani;

2. welcomes new proposals to alleviate student debt, to improve support to least well-off students, to increase the number of graduates in the Welsh economy, and to increase the level of resources available to higher education institutions in Wales.

2. yn croesawu cynigion newydd i leddfu dyled myfyrwyr, gwella’r cymorth i’r myfyrwyr lleiaf cyfoethog, cynyddu nifer y graddedigion yn economi Cymru, a chynyddu faint o adnoddau sydd ar gael i sefydliadau addysg uwch yng Nghymru.

Cynnig NDM4211 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 32, Ymatal 2, Yn erbyn 16.Motion NDM4211 as amended: For 32, Abstain 2, Against 16.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, Jane

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGerman, Michael

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Davies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Gibbons, BrianIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Jenkins, BethanWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM4211 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4211 as amended agreed.

Dadl FerShort Debate

Degawd o Ddatganoli—Sut y Byddai Wedi Gallu BodDevolution a Decade On—How It Could Have Been

Jenny Randerson: It gives me great pleasure to use the short debate this afternoon to discuss an issue that has come to our notice in quite a big way this week, and that is a reflection on a decade of devolution. If he wishes it, I am happy to give a minute of my time to Huw Lewis in which to speak.

Jenny Randerson: Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf ddefnyddio’r ddadl fer y prynhawn yma i drafod mater sydd wedi cael llawer iawn o sylw yr wythnos hon, sef pwyso a mesur degawd o ddatganoli. Os yw’n dymuno, yr wyf yn fodlon rhoi munud o’m hamser i Huw Lewis gael siarad.

As one of those who have been here since the beginning—a veteran—the last few weeks have provided me with ample opportunity to reflect on the last decade. Few among us would regret the principle of devolution now. It is clear that this place has made Wales a different country and, without doubt, a better country. My favourite period of devolution was, of course, that when the Liberal Democrats were in partnership Government—you would expect me to say that, would

Fel un o’r rhai hynny sydd wedi bod yma ers y dechrau—un o’r to hŷn—yr wyf wedi cael digon o gyfle yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf i bwyso a mesur y deng mlynedd diwethaf. Ychydig ohonom a fyddai’n gresynu at yr egwyddor o ddatganoli erbyn hyn. Mae’n amlwg bod y lle hwn wedi gwneud Cymru’n wlad wahanol, ac yn ddi-os yn wlad well. Fy hoff gyfnod ers datganoli, wrth gwrs, oedd pan oedd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn Llywodraeth bartneriaeth

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you not? However, if you are expecting my speech this afternoon to be all about the Welsh Liberal Democrats, or if you think that it will be a political attack on successive Governments and other parties, you will be disappointed. I apologise to Carwyn Jones if that means that he will have to hastily rewrite his response. For, this afternoon, I will take the opportunity to look at a different, parallel decade of devolution—an alternative decade, one which I think that many Members of this place, of all parties, would have welcomed and been proud of.

—byddech yn disgwyl imi ddweud hynny, oni fyddech? Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn disgwyl i’m haraith y prynhawn yma ymwneud yn gyfan gwbl â Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, neu os ydych yn credu y bydd yn ymosodiad gwleidyddol ar Lywodraethau olynol a phleidiau eraill, byddwch yn siomedig. Ymddiheuraf i Carwyn Jones os yw hynny’n golygu y bydd yn rhaid iddo ailysgrifennu ei ymateb ar frys. Yn hytrach, byddaf yn manteisio ar y cyfle, y prynhawn yma, i edrych ar ddegawd cyfochrog, gwahanol o ddatganoli—degawd amgen, un y tybiaf y byddai nifer o Aelodau’r lle hwn, o bob plaid, wedi ei groesawu ac wedi bod yn falch ohono.

In 1999, we were presented with a flawed system of devolution. Westminster told us clearly that we were less trustworthy to do the job than our Caledonian cousins. That has meant a decade of frustratingly slow progress, a system that saps the energy and passion of many involved in it, and above all, that limits this place’s ability to attack head-on the significant and numerous problems that Wales faces.

Yn 1999, cyflwynwyd cyfundrefn ddatganoli ddiffygiol inni. Dywedodd San Steffan yn glir wrthym na ellid ymddiried cymaint ynom ni i wneud y gwaith â’n cefndryd Albanaidd. Mae hynny wedi golygu degawd o rwystredigaeth oherwydd y cynnydd araf, cyfundrefn sy’n sugno egni ac angerdd llawer sy’n ymwneud â hi, ac yn bennaf oll, sy’n cyfyngu ar allu’r lle hwn i fynd i’r afael yn uniongyrchol â’r problemau sylweddol a niferus sy’n wynebu Cymru.

5.50 p.m.

There are, of course, some notable exceptions. The Assembly has achieved some things despite the baggage of the system. For a start, we have a fairer, outcome-driven education system. Secondly, we have free bus travel for older people. Those are but two examples. They are welcome achievements, but just think what we could have done had we had a full, law-making parliament.

Mae rhai eithriadau nodedig wrth gwrs. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi cyflawni rhai pethau er gwaethaf arferion beichus y gyfundrefn. I ddechrau, mae gennym system addysg decach, sy’n seiliedig ar ganlyniadau. Yn ail, mae pobl hŷn yn cael teithio am ddim ar fysiau. Dim ond dwy enghraifft yw’r rhain. Mae’r hyn a gyflawnwyd i’w groesawu, ond meddyliwch beth y gallem fod wedi ei wneud pe baem wedi cael senedd â phwerau deddfu llawn.

In the early years of devolution, when we were still very much finding our feet, we were always struggling with timidity, like a bunch of teenagers being allowed on holiday without adults for the first time. I remember the introduction of the concept of a children’s commissioner, and the frustration of how long it took to formally and legally create that post. Despite the fact that we all knew that there was an urgent need for such a role, after the Bryn Estyn and other scandals, we still had to wait for a Queen’s Speech,

Ym mlynyddoedd cynnar datganoli, pan oeddem yn dal i geisio cael ein traed danom, yr oedd pethau bob amser yn anodd am nad oedd gennym lawer o hyder. Yr oeddem fel criw o bobl ifanc yn eu harddegau’n cael mynd ar wyliau heb oedolion am y tro cyntaf. Cofiaf yr adeg y cyflwynwyd y cysyniad o gomisiynydd plant, a’r rhwystredigaeth a deimlem gan fod y gwaith o greu’r swydd honno’n ffurfiol ac yn gyfreithiol yn cymryd cymaint o amser. Er gwaetha’r ffaith ein bod i gyd yn gwybod bod gwir angen rôl o’r fath,

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following negotiations with Westminster, and for Westminster to introduce a Bill, and that was despite cross-party agreement and consensus here. When we sought to deal with top-up fees in 2007, we were only able to do so through a grant, rather than a change in the system, and that is something of considerable regret in current times. While there were some things for which we managed to find an alternative method of implementation, although they took longer, there are many more things that we have just never been able to do.

ar ôl sgandal Bryn Estyn ac eraill, yr oedd yn rhaid inni aros o hyd am Araith y Frenhines, yn dilyn trafodaethau gyda San Steffan, ac aros i San Steffan gyflwyno Mesur, a hynny er gwaethaf cytundeb a chonsensws trawsbleidiol yma. Pan geisiasom ymdrin â ffioedd atodol yn 2007, yr unig ffordd y gallem wneud hynny oedd drwy grant, yn hytrach na newid yn y gyfundrefn, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ydym yn gresynu’n fawr ato yn y dyddiau sydd ohoni. Yr ydym wedi llwyddo i ddarganfod dulliau amgen i roi rhai pethau ar waith, er eu bod wedi cymryd mwy o amser, ond mae llawer mwy o bethau nad ydym wedi gallu eu gwneud o hyd.

Take a moment to consider what each of our party manifestos would have looked like under a Scottish-style system, and what that would have meant for the policy programme. For me, there is little doubt that with at least two parties in support, we would have seen an end to the dreaded council tax by now. Had we been trusted with the powers, we would now see Welsh pensioners and working families freed from the tyranny of the current unfair system. We would almost certainly have seen far bolder achievements in energy policy. Despite the strong vision of some Ministers, there is little doubt that we have been frustrated in what we can do because of the system. It is very likely that full powers on planning would have allowed the Welsh Assembly Government to make Wales a nuclear-free country, and I believe that there has, in the past, been fairly strong consensus on that issue.

Ystyriwch am eiliad sut y byddai maniffesto pob un o’n pleidiau wedi edrych dan gyfundrefn fel yr un sydd yn yr Alban, a beth y byddai hynny wedi ei olygu i’r rhaglen bolisi. Yn bersonol, nid wyf yn credu bod llawer o amheuaeth, gyda chefnogaeth o leiaf ddwy blaid, y byddem wedi gweld diwedd y dreth gyngor fondigrybwyll erbyn hyn. Petaem wedi cael y pwerau, byddai pensiynwyr Cymru a theuluoedd sy’n gweithio bellach yn rhydd o hualau’r gyfundrefn annheg bresennol. Yr wyf bron yn sicr y byddem wedi cyflawni pethau llawer mwy beiddgar o ran polisi ynni. Er gwaetha’r weledigaeth gref sydd gan rai Gweinidogion, nid oes llawer o amheuaeth ein bod wedi teimlo’n rhwystredig oherwydd y ffordd y mae’r gyfundrefn yn cyfyngu ar yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud. Mae’n debygol iawn y byddai pwerau llawn ar faterion cynllunio wedi galluogi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i wneud Cymru’n wlad ddi-niwclear, a chredaf fod consensws lled gryf wedi bod ar y mater hwnnw yn y gorffennol.

The Assembly Government’s flagship anti-child-poverty pledges and policies are going to fail. It is with a heavy heart that I say that, but figures released just last week, which show that we have gone backwards in the last three years, demonstrate how much we are struggling. The latest, massive Assembly Government Measure, the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure, is, according to the Government, the key piece of legislation to help us to maybe pull back the child poverty targets. However, can you imagine how much easier it would be to put

Mae addewidion a pholisïau blaenllaw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddileu tlodi ymhlith plant yn mynd i fethu. Dywedaf hynny gyda chalon drom, ond mae ffigurau a ryddhawyd mor ddiweddar â’r wythnos diwethaf, sy’n dangos ein bod wedi camu’n ôl yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf, yn dangos mor anodd yw pethau. Y Mesur mawr diweddaraf gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru), yn ôl y Llywodraeth yw’r darn allweddol o ddeddfwriaeth a fydd yn ein helpu o bosibl i dynnu’r targedau tlodi

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into practice some of these tactics to alleviate child poverty had we had, over the years, the tools to do the job? If we could have made proper laws on poverty much earlier, and if we could have redirected our funding after making those laws, we could have had much stronger intervention in the early years of the Assembly. I am certain that we would have been much further along the way to meeting the honourable target of eradicating child poverty.

plant yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, a allwch ddychmygu gymaint haws fyddai gweithredu rhai o’r tactegau hyn er mwyn lliniaru tlodi plant petaem, dros y blynyddoedd, wedi cael yr offer i wneud y gwaith? Petaem wedi gallu gwneud deddfau priodol yn ymwneud â thlodi lawer yn gynharach, a phetaem wedi gallu ailgyfeirio’n cyllid ar ôl gwneud y deddfau hynny, byddem wedi gallu cael ymyriad llawer cryfach ym mlynyddoedd cynnar y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddem wedi bod lawer yn nes at gyrraedd y targed anrhydeddus o ddileu tlodi plant.

If we had proper powers, we would have had a Welsh language rights Measure in place by now, rather than finding ourselves bogged down in Westminster wrangles, and we would have had a housing Measure in place, with the suspension of the right to buy within our power in order to tackle our desperate housing crisis. Those things would have been possible much more quickly. Reform of our constitution to create a proud, fairer system, could also have taken place. I think that a majority here support fair votes, at least for local government, and I am confident that we would have achieved that. Other parties and other individuals will have other measures on their lists that we could have achieved had we had the powers, many of which would have received cross-party support here.

Petai gennym bwerau priodol, byddai gennym Fesur yn ymwneud â hawliau’r iaith Gymraeg erbyn hyn, ac ni fyddem yn teimlo ein bod yn cael ein dal yn ôl oherwydd ffraeo yn San Steffan. Byddai gennym hefyd Fesur tai, a byddai’r pŵer gennym i atal yr hawl i brynu er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng tai dychrynllyd sydd gennym. Byddai’r pethau hynny wedi bod yn bosibl lawer ynghynt. Byddem hefyd wedi gallu diwygio ein cyfansoddiad er mwyn creu cyfundrefn falch a thecach. Credaf fod y mwyafrif o’r rhai sydd yma’n cefnogi pleidleisiau teg, i lywodraeth leol o leiaf, ac yr wyf yn hyderus y byddem wedi cyflawni hynny. Bydd gan bleidiau eraill ac unigolion eraill fesurau eraill ar eu rhestrau y gallem fod wedi eu cyflawni pe baem wedi cael y pwerau, a byddai llawer ohonynt wedi cael cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yma.

As we look at this alternative Wales, we see a country that would be greener, with green energy, and have tougher targets and rules. We see a country that would be fairer, in which, hopefully, we would be on track with plans to beat child poverty, and more equitable, with education and health systems based on solid foundations, and with more rapid progress. That is what we could have had, and that is to remind us of how to frame the debate for the future.

Wrth inni edrych ar y Gymru amgen hon, gwelwn wlad a fyddai’n wyrddach, gydag ynni gwyrdd a thargedau a rheolau llymach. Gwelwn wlad a fyddai’n decach, lle byddem, gobeithio, yn gwneud cynnydd da gyda chynlluniau i drechu tlodi plant, ac a fyddai’n fwy cyfiawn, gyda systemau addysg ac iechyd yn seiliedig ar sylfeini cadarn, ac yn gweld cynnydd cyflymach. Dyna y gallem fod wedi ei gael, a dylai hynny ein hatgoffa sut i gyflwyno’r ddadl ar gyfer y dyfodol.

We have become so used to working with the complexities of our system, with its flaws, and to dealing with its sluggish processes, that our thinking has become blinkered and timid. The current system is not sustainable and it is not properly democratic because its complexity, by definition, means that it is not transparent and not accessible to the public,

Yr ydym wedi dod i arfer gymaint â gweithio gyda chymhlethdodau ein system, gyda’i diffygion, ac ymdrin â’i phrosesau araf, nes inni fynd yn gul ein meddyliau ac yn ddihyder. Nid yw’r system bresennol yn gynaliadwy ac nid yw’n ddemocrataidd yng ngwir ystyr y gair, oherwydd mae ei chymhlethdod, drwy ddiffiniad, yn golygu

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because the public does not understand it. The legislative competence Order process means that the situation will only get worse—it will become more complex and less understandable as bits and pieces of power are devolved to us on a one-by-one basis.

nad yw’n dryloyw nac o fewn cyrraedd y cyhoedd, gan nad yw’r cyhoedd yn ei deall. Mae proses y Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn golygu na all y sefyllfa ond gwaethygu—bydd yn mynd yn fwy cymhleth ac yn llai dealladwy wrth i dameidiau o bŵer gael eu datganoli inni fesul un.

At a recent four-way cross-party debate on the future of devolution for the Institute of Welsh Affairs, I was joined on the panel by Huw Lewis, among others. Huw made a salient point that all of us who are pro-devolution must urgently take in hand. Huw said that the problem with the way that we have argued for full powers is that we are arguing about the powers that we want, and not what we would do with them.

Mewn dadl drawsbleidiol bedair ffordd ynglŷn â dyfodol datganoli a gynhaliwyd yn ddiweddar ar gyfer y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig, ymunwyd â mi ar y panel gan Huw Lewis, ymhlith eraill. Cododd Huw bwynt pwysig iawn y mae’n rhaid i bob un ohonom sydd o blaid datganoli ei ystyried ar unwaith. Dywedodd Huw mai’r broblem gyda’r ffordd yr ydym wedi dadlau dros bwerau llawn yw ein bod yn dadlau ynglŷn â’r pwerau y mae arnom eu heisiau, yn hytrach na’r hyn a wnaem â hwy.

Huw is absolutely right: in order to make the case for more powers, we need to concentrate on what we would do, and not on what we could do. We should think of the measures that we would introduce, and not the powers themselves. There is a clear alternative universe of Welsh devolution, and I hope that I have illustrated to a small extent what it would have been like had we started with those powers. However, in a way, it does not matter in the slightest—what matters is that when we have the debate about those additional powers, we need to ensure that we use the opportunity to say what would do with them to give the people of Wales a vision of the future. When we get those tools, we need to ensure that in 10 years’ time, any shortcomings in this place are the result of political mistakes, and not because we never had the chance to put Wales right.

Mae Huw yn hollol gywir: er mwyn cyflwyno’r achos dros fwy o bwerau mae angen inni ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn y byddem yn ei wneud, ac nid ar yr hyn y gallem ei wneud. Dylem feddwl am y mesurau y byddem yn eu cyflwyno, nid am y pwerau eu hunain. Mae’n amlwg fod math cwbl wahanol o ddatganoli ar gyfer Cymru, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio fy mod wedi dangos i ryw raddau sut y byddai pethau’n edrych petaem wedi cael y pwerau hynny yn y lle cyntaf. Fodd bynnag, ar un ystyr nid yw’n gwneud dim gwahaniaeth—yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw bod angen inni sicrhau, pan fyddwn yn cael y ddadl ar y pwerau ychwanegol hynny, ein bod yn defnyddio’r cyfle i ddweud beth y byddem yn ei wneud er mwyn rhoi gweledigaeth o’r dyfodol i bobl Cymru. Pan gawn yr offer hynny, bydd angen inni sicrhau bod unrhyw ddiffygion yn y lle hwn ymhen 10 mlynedd yn deillio o gamgymeriadau gwleidyddol, nid o’r ffaith na chawsom erioed gyfle i wneud pethau’n iawn yng Nghymru.

Huw Lewis: Thank you for that thought-provoking contribution, Jenny. It was, in its essence, a contribution in hindsight. They say that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but that does not necessarily mean that it is devoid of merit and that there is nothing to learn from it.

Huw Lewis: Diolch ichi am y cyfraniad hwnnw. Yr oedd yn peri inni feddwl, Jenny. Cyfraniad drwy edrych yn ôl ydoedd, yn ei hanfod. Maent yn dweud bod gallu bod yn ddoeth drwy edrych yn ôl yn beth gwych, ond nid yw hynny’n golygu o reidrwydd nad oes iddo rinweddau ac nad oes dim i’w ddysgu ohono.

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Jenny mentioned the issue of powers and where we might have been had the powers been different, and perhaps there is merit in what she says. However, in my view, the accumulation of powers, necessary though it may be in certain circumstances, must be secondary to a vision for the future and a platform of social policy to make it real that engages people sufficiently to support it at the ballot box, and continue to support it while it is being implemented.

Cyfeiriodd Jenny at fater pwerau a’r sefyllfa y gallasem fod ynddi petai’r pwerau wedi bod yn wahanol, ac efallai fod rhinwedd yn yr hyn y mae’n ei ddweud. Serch hynny, yn fy marn i rhaid i gasglu pwerau, er bod hynny’n angenrheidiol mewn rhai amgylchiadau, ddod yn ail i weledigaeth ar gyfer y dyfodol, a llwyfan polisi cymdeithasol i wireddu’r weledigaeth honno sy’n ennyn digon o ddiddordeb mewn pobl i’w chefnogi yn y blwch pleidleisio, ac i ddal i’w chefnogi tra bydd ar waith.

Child poverty is a case in point; child poverty is not a legislative issue but a question of political priorities and of dialogue with the electorate about rigorously sticking to targets and the difficult decisions that sticking to targets would mean for public spending in Wales. You have provoked some thought in the Chamber this afternoon, Jenny, and I thank you for that, but I would not start with powers, necessarily; I would start with dreams.

Mae tlodi plant yn enghraifft nodedig; nid mater deddfwriaethol yw tlodi plant, ond mater o flaenoriaethau gwleidyddol a deialog gyda’r etholwyr ynglŷn â chadw at dargedau, beth bynnag sy’n digwydd, a’r penderfyniadau anodd y byddai cadw at dargedau yn ei olygu o ran gwariant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Yr ydych wedi ysgogi rhywfaint o feddwl yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma, Jenny, a diolch ichi am hynny. Ond ni fyddwn i yn dechrau gyda phwerau, o reidrwydd; byddwn i’n dechrau gyda breuddwydion.

6.00 p.m.

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I begin by assuring Jenny that I never stand up to respond to these short debates having prepared a speech beforehand. I usually find that the title of the debate is so broad that it is impossible to produce a speech beforehand. I therefore assure Jenny that what I am about to say is based on what I have heard her say.

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Dechreuaf drwy sicrhau Jenny na fyddaf byth yn codi ar fy nhraed i ymateb i’r dadleuon byr hyn gydag araith wedi’i pharatoi ymlaen llaw. Fel arfer, byddaf yn gweld bod pennawd y ddadl mor eang fel nad oes modd llunio araith ymlaen llaw. Felly, sicrhaf Jenny fod yr hyn yr wyf ar fin ei ddweud yn seiliedig ar yr hyn y clywais hi’n ei ddweud.

Shortly after I became a Minister, nine years ago, I met the permanent secretary of a Whitehall department who shall remain nameless, and he told me that devolution was an interesting experiment, because it meant that Whitehall would have to listen to Wales as well—as well as Scotland is what he meant. To me, that has been the greatest change as a result of devolution: we have far more clout at a UK level and far more of a presence at international level, which is so important in bringing investment and tourism to Wales. When we talk about upskilling our universities and ensuring that they become

Ychydig wedi imi ddod yn Weinidog, naw mlynedd yn ôl, cwrddais ag ysgrifennydd parhaol adran yn Whitehall a gaiff fod yn ddienw, a dywedodd yntau wrthyf fod datganoli’n arbrawf diddorol, oherwydd golygai y byddai’n rhaid i Whitehall wrando ar Gymru yn ogystal—sef yn ogystal â’r Alban. I mi, dyna’r newid mwyaf sydd wedi dod yn sgil datganoli: mae gennym lawer mwy o rym ar lefel y DU a llawer mwy o bresenoldeb ar lefel ryngwladol, sydd mor bwysig o ran dod â buddsoddiad a thwristiaeth i Gymru. Pan siaradwn am gynyddu sgiliau ein prifysgolion a sicrhau eu

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world-class institutions, we should remember that it is devolution that has ensured that people have heard of them in the first place. That has been a real change.

bod yn dod yn sefydliadau o safon fyd-eang, dylem gofio mai datganoli sydd wedi sicrhau bod pobl wedi clywed amdanynt yn y lle cyntaf. Mae hynny wedi bod yn newid go iawn.

Like Jenny, I have been here for 10 years, and I must say that this institution has changed almost beyond recognition in that time. It is fair to say that, back in 1999, we were an institution that moved money around and passed some small and relatively uncontroversial laws. We did not have a particularly profound legislative function. However, we have moved on greatly since then, and we now have 40 or more Measures and legislative competence Orders in the system, whether passed or proposed. In time, the Assembly will scrutinise those, if it has not done so already, and that is a tremendous change from 1999.

Fel Jenny, yr wyf yma ers 10 mlynedd, a rhaid imi ddweud bod y sefydliad hwn wedi newid bron y tu hwnt i adnabyddiaeth yn y cyfnod hwnnw. Mae’n deg dweud mai sefydliad oeddem, yn ôl yn 1999, a symudai arian o gwmpas a phasio ambell ddeddf fechan a chymharol annadleuol. Nid oedd gennym swyddogaeth ddeddfu arbennig o ddwys. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi cymryd camau breision ers hynny, a bellach mae gennym 40 neu ragor o Fesurau a Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn y system, un ai wedi’u pasio neu wedi’u cynnig. Ymhen amser bydd y Cynulliad yn craffu ar y rheiny, os nad yw eisoes wedi gwneud hynny, ac mae hynny’n newid aruthrol er 1999.

It could have been worse, of course, because at one time the suggestion was that the Assembly work on a committee basis and have committee Chairs instead of Ministers. That would have been extremely difficult, particularly during times of crisis. I hope that you will forgive me for mentioning the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak, but a committee could never have taken the decisions, for better or worse, at that time; we needed Ministers. We managed to deal with it despite having no powers at all in relation to the disease, as they were not devolved to us.

Gallasai fod yn waeth, wrth gwrs, oherwydd ar un adeg yr awgrym oedd y dylai’r Cynulliad weithio ar sail pwyllgorau a chael Cadeiryddion pwyllgorau yn lle Gweinidogion. Buasai hynny’n eithriadol o anodd, yn enwedig mewn adegau o argyfwng. Gobeithio y maddeuwch imi am grybwyll haint clwy’r traed a’r genau, ond ni fyddai pwyllgor byth wedi gallu gwneud y penderfyniadau, er gwell neu er gwaeth, bryd hynny; yr oedd angen Gweinidogion. Llwyddasom i ddelio â’r clefyd ef er nad oedd gennym ddim pwerau o gwbl mewn cysylltiad ag ef, gan nad oeddent wedi’u datganoli i ni.

It is also fair to say that, sometimes, the impression is given by others in the Chamber that Scotland is a land of milk and honey when it comes to legislation, and that all is right there. We know that that is not the case. We know that there are further debates in Scotland about devolution, and questions about where it has taken Scotland and what sort of legislation the Scottish Parliament should be passing with its powers. I listened carefully to Jenny on the policies that she would have liked to put in place. She mentioned an end to council tax, a different energy policy, and she said that we would already have a Welsh language rights

Mae’n deg dweud hefyd y rhoddir yr argraff weithiau gan eraill yn y Siambr fod yr Alban yn wlad o laeth a mêl pan ddaw’n fater o ddeddfu, a bod popeth yn iawn yno. Gwyddom nad felly y mae. Gwyddom fod dadleuon pellach yn yr Alban ynglŷn â datganoli, a chwestiynau i ble y mae’r broses wedi mynd â’r Alban, a pha fath o ddeddfwriaeth y dylai Senedd yr Alban fod yn ei phasio gyda’i phwerau. Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar Jenny yn sôn am y pwerau y byddai wedi hoffi eu sefydlu. Soniodd am roi diwedd ar y dreth gyngor, polisi ynni gwahanol, a dywedodd y byddai gennym eisoes Fesur hawliau’r Gymraeg, fel y’i

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Measure, as she put it, if we had primary powers. She talked about the abolition of the right to buy and about constitutional reform, as well as the progress that would have been made in health and education—although she did not define that progress—if we had primary powers. My response is that these are all policies of her party, and it is far from clear that we would have all these things in place because the other parties in the Chamber might not necessarily have agreed—on proportional representation for local government elections, for instance. It is far from clear that that would be in place now if we had had primary powers for the past 10 years.

galwodd, petai gennym bwerau sylfaenol. Soniodd am ddiddymu’r hawl i brynu ac am ddiwygio’r cyfansoddiad, yn ogystal â’r cynnydd a fyddai wedi digwydd mewn iechyd ac addysg—er na ddiffiniodd y cynnydd hwnnw—petai gennym bwerau sylfaenol. Fy ymateb i yw mai polisïau ei phlaid hi yw’r rhain i gyd, ac y mae ymhell o fod yn glir a fyddem wedi sefydlu’r holl bethau hyn, oherwydd efallai na fyddai’r pleidiau eraill yn y Siambr o reidrwydd wedi cytuno—ar gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol mewn etholiadau llywodraeth leol, er enghraifft. Mae ymhell o fod yn glir a fyddai hynny wedi’i sefydlu heddiw ai peidio petaem wedi cael pwerau sylfaenol am y 10 mlynedd diwethaf.

We have now had nearly two years of the present system of LCOs and Measures. I well remember in 2007 people within and without the Chamber saying that MPs would block any powers being transferred to us. That has not happened. Not a single LCO has been blocked. In fact, Members of Parliament have been far more willing to engage with us, far more willing to devolve powers, and far more able to do so than they were given credit for. The suggestion that they would somehow block the devolution of powers to this institution has been shown to be incorrect.

Erbyn hyn yr ydym wedi cael bron i ddwy flynedd o’r drefn bresennol o Orchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a Mesurau. Cofiaf yn iawn yn 2007 i bobl o fewn ac oddi allan i’r Siambr ddweud y byddai ASau yn rhwystro trosglwyddo unrhyw bwerau inni. Nid oes yr un LCO wedi’i rwystro. Yn wir, mae Aelodau Seneddol wedi bod lawer yn barotach i ymgysylltu â ni, yn llawer parotach i ddatganoli grym, ac yn llawer mwy abl i wneud hynny nag a farnwyd. Dangoswyd mai anghywir oedd yr awgrym y byddent rywsut yn rhwystro datganoli pwerau i’r sefydliad hwn.

Jenny Randerson: I was not implying that they would try to block the devolution of powers; I was attempting to say that, by its very nature, the process is lengthier. We have to do everything twice. We have to consult on an LCO, then we have to consult Westminster, then we have to consult on a Measure. With the best will in the world and with all speed behind us, it still takes longer.

Jenny Randerson: Nid oeddwn yn awgrymu y byddent yn ceisio rhwystro datganoli pwerau; ceisio dweud yr oeddwn fod y broses, oherwydd ei natur, yn hirach. Rhaid gwneud popeth ddwywaith. Rhaid ymgynghori ynghylch LCO, wedyn rhaid ymgynghori â San Steffan, wedyn rhaid ymgynghori ynghylch Mesur. Gyda’r ewyllys gorau yn y byd a chyda phob rhwydd hynt, mae’n dal i gymryd mwy o amser.

Carwyn Jones: It can be a lengthy process, but that provides the counter argument to what you said about there not being enough scrutiny in this place. If anything, LCOs are scrutinised to death, because they are scrutinised here and at Westminster.

Carwyn Jones: Gall fod yn broses faith, ond mae hynny’n cyflwyno’r wrthddadl i’ch haeriad nad oes digon o graffu yn y lle hwn. Os rhywbeth, creffir ar Orchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol i farwolaeth, oherwydd creffir arnynt yma ac yn San Steffan.

An important point needs to be made here. When the Scottish Parliament was set up, it built on the foundations of the Scottish

Mae angen gwneud pwynt pwysig yma. Pan sefydlwyd senedd yr Alban, fe’i hadeiladwyd ar sylfeini Swyddfa’r Alban, sefydliad a oedd

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Office, which was an institution used to drafting primary legislation. It had the people in place to do it and was well able to produce Bills of its own. In 1999, had we been presented with primary powers, my view is that we would have struggled to implement them. We would not have had the people in place to draft the legislation or to guide any Bills through the Assembly, and the people of Wales would have been disappointed with this institution from the very beginning. We are now at a halfway house, it is true, but it has meant that we were able to develop the expertise to draft sound legislation. It has meant that Members were able to develop the expertise to scrutinise legislation line by line. All that had to be built up from scratch in a short space of time. I have said many times on the record that I am ultimately in favour of primary powers being transferred to the Assembly, as we see in Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. However, it has been exceptionally useful for us to build up expertise over time, because the worst thing that could have happened to this institution was for it to take on powers that it could not implement. If it had taken on the power to draft primary legislation at too early a stage, that primary legislation would have been flawed when it was drafted, or not enough primary legislation would have been developed. It is right to say that the system that we have at the moment has offered a useful learning process for us in drafting quasi-primary legislation. That can only be good for this institution and, ultimately, for the people of Wales.

wedi arfer drafftio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Yr oedd ganddi’r bobl yn eu lle i wneud hynny ac yr oedd yn hollol alluog i lunio’i Mesurau ei hun. Yn 1999, petaem wedi cael pwerau sylfaenol, byddem wedi cael anhawster i’w gweithredu, yn fy marn i. Ni fuasai gennym y bobl yn eu lle i ddrafftio’r ddeddfwriaeth nac i dywys unrhyw Fesurau drwy’r Cynulliad, a buasai pobl Cymru’n siomedig iawn yn y sefydliad hwn o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Yr ydym bellach mewn tŷ hanner ffordd, mae’n wir, ond mae wedi golygu ein bod wedi gallu datblygu’r arbenigedd i ddrafftio deddfwriaeth gadarn. Mae wedi golygu bod Aelodau wedi gallu datblygu’r arbenigedd i graffu ar ddeddfwriaeth fesul llinell. Bu’n rhaid adeiladu hynny i gyd o ddim mewn cyfnod byr o amser. Yr wyf wedi dweud droeon ar goedd fy mod, yn y pen draw, o blaid trosglwyddo pwerau sylfaenol i’r Cynulliad, fel y gwelwn yn Atodlen 7 i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006. Fodd bynnag, bu’n hynod o ddefnyddiol inni greu arbenigedd dros gyfnod, oherwydd y peth gwaethaf a allasai ddigwydd i’r sefydliad hwn fyddai iddo ymgymryd â phwerau na allai eu gweithredu. Petai wedi ymgymryd â’r pŵer i ddrafftio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn rhy gynnar, byddai’r ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol honno wedi bod yn wallus ar ôl cael ei drafftio, neu ni fyddai digon o ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol wedi ei datblygu. Mae’n iawn dweud bod y system sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd wedi bod yn broses ddysgu ddefnyddiol inni mewn drafftio deddfwriaeth led-sylfaenol. Ni all hynny ond bod yn dda i’r sefydliad hwn ac, yn y pen draw, i bobl Cymru.

Finally, I join my colleague, Huw Lewis, who has now left the Chamber, and support what he said. There is no reason why political parties cannot say which powers they wish to see devolved. It is now possible to say, ‘We would like to see powers devolved in these areas’. In 2003, we were hamstrung and could not say anything about the areas that were not devolved. We could not put forward policies that would mean interfering with primary legislation or that we could not carry out because we needed primary legislation to do so. That has all changed. It is now possible for political parties to put in their manifestos the powers that they would like to see devolved and then to say what use they

Yn olaf, ymunaf â’m cyd-Aelod, Huw Lewis, sydd bellach wedi gadael y Siambr, a chefnogaf yr hyn a ddywedodd yntau. Nid oes dim rheswm pam na all pleidiau gwleidyddol ddweud pa bwerau y dymunant weld eu datganoli. Bellach mae’n bosibl dweud, ‘Hoffem weld trosglwyddo pwerau yn y meysydd hyn’. Yn 2003, yr oeddem wedi’n rhwystro ac ni allem ddweud dim ynglŷn â’r meysydd a oedd heb eu datganoli. Ni allem gynnig polisïau a fyddai’n golygu ymyrryd mewn deddfwriaeth sylfaenol neu rai na allem eu cyflawni oherwydd bod angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i wneud hynny. Mae hynny i gyd wedi newid. Mae modd bellach i bleidiau gwleidyddol gynnwys yn eu

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would like to make of those powers. Nothing is stopping every political party from explaining what its vision is for the people of Wales.

maniffestos y pwerau yr hoffent weld eu datganoli, ac wedyn i ddweud pa ddefnydd yr hoffent ei wneud o’r pwerau hynny. Nid oes dim i rwystro pob plaid wleidyddol rhag egluro beth yw ei gweledigaeth ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

We now have more powers in the Assembly than we have ever had. Those powers are developing and will continue to develop over the next few years. It is absolutely crucial that we as politicians do not say that we would like to do a lot of things but the powers are just not there. The powers are there. It is important that there is a vision in place now for the people of Wales. It is important for all political parties in this institution to understand this: there has never been a better time to look at the powers that we need to improve the lives of the people of Wales and to provide the vision that is needed to ensure that the lives of our people are improved.

Mae gennym fwy o bwerau yn y Cynulliad yn awr nag a fu gennym erioed. Mae’r pwerau hynny’n datblygu a byddant yn parhau i ddatblygu dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Mae’n gwbl hanfodol nad ydym ni wleidyddion yn dweud yr hoffem wneud llawer o bethau ond nad yw’r pwerau yno. Mae’r pwerau yno. Mae’n bwysig fod yna weledigaeth yn awr ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Mae’n bwysig i bob plaid wleidyddol yn y sefydliad hwn ddeall hyn: ni fu erioed cystal amser i edrych ar y pwerau y mae arnom eu hangen i wella bywydau pobl Cymru, ac i ddarparu’r weledigaeth y mae ei hangen i sicrhau y caiff bywydau ein pobl eu gwella.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s business to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 6.10 p.m.The meeting ended at 6.10 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)

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Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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