Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 26 Tachwedd 2008Wednesday, 26 November 2008

26/11/2008

CynnwysContents

3Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ

Questions to the Counsel General and Leader of the House

6 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

26 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai Questions for the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

44 Atal Rheolau Sefydlog Suspension of Standing Orders

44 Sefydlu ac Ethol y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Cyntaf Establishment and Election of the First Legislative Committee

45 Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ar Ganiatâd Tybiedig i Roi OrganauThe Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s Report on Presumed Consent for Organ Donation

69 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Trais yn erbyn Staff y GIGWelsh Conservatives Debate: Violence Against NHS Staff

95 Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Adeiladau YsgolionWelsh Liberal Democrats Debate: School Buildings

119 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y TŷQuestions to the Counsel General and Leader of the House

Crown Court Means Testing Profion Modd Llys y Goron

Q1 Bethan Jenkins: Does the Counsel General intend to respond to the consultation document on Crown Court means testing, launched by the Ministry of Justice and the Legal Services Commissioner? OAQ(3)0111(CGE)

C1 Bethan Jenkins: A yw’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn bwriadu ymateb i’r ddogfen ymgynghori ar brofion modd Llys y Goron, a lansiwyd gan y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder a’r Comisiynydd Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol? OAQ(3)0111(CGE)

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I am in the process of considering the consultation document. I have yet to determine which aspects of the document, if any, merit a response. I will consult with my Cabinet colleagues before issuing any response on behalf of the Assembly Government.

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Yr wyf wrthi’n ystyried y ddogfen ymgynghori. Nid wyf wedi penderfynu eto pa agweddau ar y ddogfen, os o gwbl, sy’n haeddu ymateb. Byddaf yn ymgynghori â’m cyd-Weinidogion yn y Cabinet cyn cyhoeddi unrhyw ymateb ar ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.

Bethan Jenkins: One proposal is that everyone tried at a Crown Court will be offered legal aid but those found guilty will have to repay the taxpayer the cost of their defence, which is £2,500 on average. I am concerned that that could lead many defendants to confess to allegations at an early stage, even if they are not guilty, to avoid incurring a hefty debt. Does the Counsel General agree that that is a possible outcome of these proposals?

Bethan Jenkins: Un cynnig yw darparu cymorth cyfreithiol i bawb a fydd yn sefyll eu prawf yn Llys y Goron, ond y bydd yn rhaid i’r rheini a geir yn euog ad-dalu cost yr amddiffyniad i’r trethdalwyr, sy’n £2,500 ar gyfartaledd. Yr wyf yn pryderu y gallai hynny beri i lawer o ddiffynyddion gyfaddef i honiadau yn fuan yn y broses, hyd yn oed os ydynt yn ddieuog, er mwyn osgoi mynd i ddyled drom. A yw’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn cytuno bod hynny’n ganlyniad posibl i’r cynigion hyn?

Carwyn Jones: In many ways, it is not much of a change from the situation that has always existed, in the sense that legal aid has always been means tested. It has always been the case that, should someone be successful at defending themselves in court, they would get the money back via a defendant’s costs order in the Crown Court. If I find, upon considering the document, that there are concerns over a possible limitation on the availability of legal representation to members of the public, I will make those views known when I respond to the document, and also to the Assembly.

Carwyn Jones: Ar lawer ystyr nid yw’n wahanol iawn i’r hyn a fu erioed, yn yr ystyr bod cymorth cyfreithiol wastad yn destun profion modd. Petai rhywun yn llwyddiannus wrth amddiffyn eu hunain yn y llys, caent yr arian yn ôl drwy gyfrwng gorchymyn costau diffynnydd yn Llys y Goron—dyna fu’r sefyllfa erioed. Os byddaf, ar ôl ystyried y ddogfen, yn canfod y ceir pryderon ynghylch posibilrwydd o gyfyngu’r gynrychiolaeth gyfreithiol a fydd ar gael i’r cyhoedd, byddaf yn datgan fy marn pan fyddaf yn ymateb i’r ddogfen, ac yn gwneud hynny i’r Cynulliad hefyd.

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Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 2, OAQ(3)0114(CGE), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 2, OAQ(3)0114(CGE), withdrawn.

The Administration of Justice Gweinyddu Cyfiawnder

Q3 Bethan Jenkins: What discussions has the Counsel General held with law officers elsewhere regarding the establishment of a single administration of justice in Wales? OAQ(3)0112(CGE)

C3 Bethan Jenkins: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi’u cynnal gyda swyddogion cyfraith mewn mannau eraill ynghylch sefydlu un weinyddiaeth gyfiawnder yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0112(CGE)

Carwyn Jones: I have not held any discussions with anyone on this issue. In my view, it would arise following a referendum.

Carwyn Jones: Nid wyf wedi cynnal dim trafodaethau gyda neb ynghylch y mater hwn. Yn fy marn i, byddai’r mater yn codi ar ôl refferendwm.

Bethan Jenkins: ‘One Wales’ stipulates a commitment to consider the evidence for the devolution of powers over the criminal justice system within the context of the devolution of funding, and move towards the establishment of a single administration of justice in Wales. Can you inform us of any plans for the creation of a single administration of justice, and can you also inform us of who in the Assembly Government is responsible for exploring that context?

Bethan Jenkins: Mae ‘Cymru’n Un’ yn nodi ymrwymiad i ystyried y dystiolaeth ynghylch datganoli pwerau dros y system cyfiawnder troseddol yng nghyd-destun datganoli maes cyllid, a symud at sefydlu un weinyddiaeth gyfiawnder yng Nghymru. A allwch roi gwybod inni am unrhyw gynlluniau i greu un weinyddiaeth gyfiawnder, ac a allwch hefyd roi gwybod inni pwy yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol am ymchwilio i’r cyd-destun hwnnw?

Carwyn Jones: Consideration is being given as per the commitment in ‘One Wales’, and the Minister who has prime responsibility to consider this is Brian Gibbons.

Carwyn Jones: Yr ydym yn ystyried y mater yn unol â’r ymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’, a Brian Gibbons yw’r Gweinidog sy’n bennaf gyfrifol am ystyried hyn.

Senior Legal Adviser Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol

Q4 Alun Davies: Will the Counsel General make a statement on his role as senior legal adviser to the Welsh Assembly Government? OAQ(3)0115(CGE)

C4 Alun Davies: A wnaiff y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ddatganiad am ei swyddogaeth fel uwch-gynghorydd cyfreithiol i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru? OAQ(3)0115(CGE)

Carwyn Jones: According to the Government of Wales Act 2006, I am the final and authoritative legal adviser to the Welsh Assembly Government, and I may be consulted on any legal matter.

Carwyn Jones: Yn ôl Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, fi yw cynghorydd cyfreithiol terfynol ac awdurdodedig Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, a gellir ymgynghori â mi am unrhyw fater cyfreithiol.

Alun Davies: That is marvellous. [Laughter.] I would not seek any detail on the advice that you give, but have you provided advice to any Welsh Minister on the issue of Llanbedr airfield? If so, I would be grateful if you

Alun Davies: Gwych. [Chwerthin.] Ni fyddwn yn gofyn am unrhyw fanylion am y cyngor a roddwch, ond a ydych wedi rhoi cyngor i unrhyw un o Weinidogion Cymru ynghylch maes awyr Llanbedr? Os felly,

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could give us an indication of when you expect that issue to be resolved.

byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech roi rhyw syniad inni pryd yr ydych yn disgwyl i’r mater hwnnw gael ei ddatrys.

Carwyn Jones: As Members will know, I cannot confirm whether I have given advice on any legal matter. Nevertheless, it is for the appropriate portfolio Minister to deal with any questions regarding the possible timetable for Llanbedr airfield.

Carwyn Jones: Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, ni allaf gadarnhau a ydwyf wedi rhoi cyngor ar unrhyw fater cyfreithiol. Fodd bynnag, mater i’r Gweinidog â’r portffolio priodol yw delio ag unrhyw gwestiynau ynghylch yr amserlen bosibl ar gyfer maes awyr Llanbedr.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 5, OAQ(3)0113(CGE), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 5, OAQ(3)0113(CGE), withdrawn.

Rôl Ddrafftio Drafting Role

C6 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Cwnsler Cyffredinol amlinellu ei swyddogaeth yng nghyswllt drafftio Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru? OAQ(3)0116(CGE)

Q6 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Counsel General outline his role in relation to the drafting of Welsh Assembly Government LCOs? OAQ(3)0116(CGE)

Carwyn Jones: A minnau’n Gwnsler Cyffredinol, yr wyf yn gweld yr holl Orchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a gynigir gan y Llywodraeth, ac yr wyf yn gallu rhoi cyngor ar eu cynnwys.

Carwyn Jones: As Counsel General, I see all the Government’s suggested legislative competence Orders, and I am able to offer advice on their content.

Eleanor Burnham: Ryw bythefnos yn ôl, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog fod ei Lywodraeth am sicrhau bod cyrff fel Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn cael eu cynnwys yn y Gorchymyn ar y Gymraeg, ond nad oedd angen i’r siop tsips leol gael ei chynnwys. Fel cynghorydd cyfreithiol penodedig y Llywodraeth, pa fath o eiriau y bu ichi eu defnyddio i amlygu’r gwahaniaeth hwn rhwng canolfan y mileniwm a’r siop tsips leol? Os na allwch fy ateb yn awr, efallai y gallech anfon yr ateb ataf cyn diwedd y tymor.

Eleanor Burnham: A fortnight or so ago, the First Minister said that the Government wanted to ensure that bodies such as the Wales Millennium Centre could be included in the scope of the LCO on the Welsh language, but that the local chip shop would not need to be included. As the Government’s appointed legal adviser, what form of words did you use to highlight that difference between the millennium centre and the local chip shop? If you are unable to answer me know, perhaps you could send me a response before the end of term.

Carwyn Jones: Nid oes problem gyfreithiol ynglŷn â hyn. Mae’n bosibl sicrhau bod y Gorchymyn yn cynnwys rhai cyrff ac yn eithrio cyrff eraill. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw bod y drafftio yn glir. Yr wyf yn hyderus bod hyn yn wir ynghylch y Gorchymyn hwnnw.

Carwyn Jones: There is no legal problem in that regard. It is possible to ensure that the LCO includes some bodies and excludes others. What is important is that the drafting is clear. I am confident that that is true of that particular legislative competence Order.

Scrutiny Craffu

Q7 Peter Black: Has the Counsel General had any discussions with law officers elsewhere regarding the legal factors that the UK Parliament takes into account when

C7 Peter Black: A yw’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau gyda swyddogion y gyfraith mewn mannau eraill ynghylch y ffactorau cyfreithiol y mae

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scrutinising legislative competence Orders? OAQ(3)0117(CGE)

Senedd y DU yn eu hystyried wrth graffu ar Orchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol? OAQ(3)0117(CGE)

Carwyn Jones: It is not my role to advise neither the UK Government nor the UK Parliament regarding LCOs. However, as I have said, I meet law officers from other parts of the UK from time to time.

Carwyn Jones: Nid yw rhoi cyngor i Lywodraeth y DU na Senedd y DU ynghylch Gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn rhan o’m swyddogaeth i. Fodd bynnag, fel yr wyf wedi’i ddweud, byddaf yn cwrdd â swyddogion y gyfraith o rannau eraill o’r DU o dro i dro.

Peter Black: Thank you for that reply. According to internal guidance issued by Parliament, the only factors that should be taken into account when the UK Parliament considers an LCO are whether the powers requested fall foul of the Government of Wales Act 2006 or any other law, whether they extend beyond Wales, and whether the powers threaten the UK constitution or the workings of the England and Wales legal system. The Welsh Affairs Committee recently refused the Assembly its request for full powers over the right to buy. Do you believe that that was for one of those reasons, or was it based solely on policy?

Peter Black: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw. Yn ôl cyfarwyddyd mewnol a gyhoeddwyd gan Senedd y DU, dyma’r unig ffactorau y dylid eu hystyried pan fydd Llywodraeth y DU yn pwyso a mesur Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol; a yw’r pwerau a geisir yn mynd yn groes i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, neu i unrhyw ddeddf arall; a yw’n ymestyn y tu hwnt i Gymru; ac a yw’r pwerau yn fygythiad i gyfansoddiad y DU neu’r modd y mae system gyfreithiol Cymru a Lloegr yn gweithio. Gwrthododd y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig gais y Cynulliad yn ddiweddar am bwerau llawn dros yr hawl i brynu. A ydych yn credu y gwnaethpwyd hynny ar sail un o’r rhesymau hynny, ynteu ar sail polisi yn unig?

Carwyn Jones: The Welsh Affairs Select Committee does not have the power to refuse any powers to the Assembly. It is a matter for the Welsh Affairs Select Committee and any LCO committee here to provide advice to both administrations regarding what the final LCO should look like. Ultimately, it is a matter for both administrations to produce the final LCO pending a final vote here and in both Houses of Parliament.

Carwyn Jones: Nid oes gan y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig y pŵer i wrthod unrhyw bwerau i’r Cynulliad. Mater i’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig ac i unrhyw bwyllgor Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yma yw rhoi cyngor i’r ddwy weinyddiaeth ynghylch gwedd derfynol Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol. Yn y pen draw, mae’r ddwy weinyddiaeth yn gyfrifol am lunio’r Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol terfynol, yn dilyn pleidlais derfynol yma ac yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi a’r Tŷ Cyffredin.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol am ei atebion doeth.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Counsel General for his judicious answers.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion GwledigQuestions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

Outstanding Payments to Farmers Taliadau sy’n Ddyledus i Ffermwyr

Q1 Mick Bates: Will the Minister give an update on outstanding payments to farmers

C1 Mick Bates: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am daliadau sy’n

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under Welsh agricultural schemes? OAQ(3)0526(RAF)

ddyledus i ffermwyr dan gynlluniau amaethyddol Cymru? OAQ(3)0526(RAF)

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): Around 854 receipted payment claims are currently outstanding in respect of all European common agricultural policy direct payment and rural development area-based schemes. This is only 2.2 per cent of all the claims received under these schemes each year. Some claims cannot be paid pending the resolution of queries with applicants.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Mae oddeutu 854 o hawliadau am dâl yn ddyledus ar hyn o bryd yng nghyswllt holl gynlluniau datblygu gwledig sy’n seiliedig ar arwynebedd a thaliadau uniongyrchol polisi amaethyddol cyffredin Ewrop. Dim ond 2.2 y cant yw hyn o’r holl hawliadau a geir dan y cynlluniau hyn bob blwyddyn. Ni ellir talu rhai hawliadau nes ceir atebion gan ymgeiswyr i’r ymholiadau.

Mick Bates: Thank you for that global figure. I assume that the 435 Tir Gofal payments, which was the figure that I last received from you, are still outstanding. One of my constituents has asked me why needed Tir Gofal environmental payments are being delayed, because the delay is costing at least £400 a month. Despite the fact that the Government promotes agri-environment schemes, there is a loss of confidence in them because the payments are not coming forward. What do you propose to do to restore that confidence and to make sure that the 854 payments that you referred to are paid urgently?

Mick Bates: Diolch ichi am y ffigur cyffredinol hwnnw. Tybiaf fod y 435 o daliadau Tir Gofal, sef y ffigur diwethaf a gefais gennych, yn dal yn ddyledus. Mae un o’m hetholwyr wedi gofyn imi pam y ceir oedi gyda thaliadau amgylcheddol angenrheidiol Tir Gofal, oherwydd mae’r oedi’n costio o leiaf £400 y mis. Er gwaethaf y ffaith bod y Llywodraeth yn hyrwyddo cynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol, mae pobl yn colli ffydd ynddynt gan nad ydynt yn cael y taliadau. Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud i adfer eu ffydd yn y cynlluniau ac i sicrhau y caiff yr 854 o daliadau y cyfeiriasoch atynt eu talu ar unwaith?

Elin Jones: Tir Gofal is not paid on need; it is paid once claims are validated and meet the European auditing procedures and regulations that we, as the paying authority, have to adhere to. The most recent figure that I have of outstanding Tir Gofal claims is now down to 407.

Elin Jones: Ni thelir Tir Gofal yn ôl yr angen amdano; fe’i telir ar ôl i hawliadau gael eu dilysu a’u bod yn bodloni’r rheoliadau a’r gweithdrefnau archwilio Ewropeaidd yr ydym, fel yr awdurdod sy’n talu, yn gorfod glynu wrthynt. Mae’r ffigur diweddaraf sydd gennyf ar gyfer yr hawliadau Tir Gofal sy’n ddyledus wedi gostwng i 407 erbyn hyn.

Mick Bates: Minister, that is some progress, but not much. You refer to the process of validation. Along with many of my constituents who are waiting to receive these payments, which used to paid annually on the date of the commencement of the scheme, I cannot understand why the process of validation takes so long, given that all the information is collected on various forms. Surely having one database would overcome many of the validation problems that you refer to. When will you make sure that data can be cross-checked so that payments can be made promptly?

Mick Bates: Mae hynny’n rhywfaint o gynnydd, Weinidog, ond nid yw’n llawer. Cyfeiriasoch at y broses ddilysu. Yr wyf fi, ynghyd â nifer o’m hetholwyr sy’n aros i gael y taliadau hyn yr arferid eu talu’n flynyddol ar ddyddiad cychwyn y cynllun, yn methu deall pam mae’r broses ddilysu yn cymryd cyhyd, ac ystyried y caiff yr holl wybodaeth ei chasglu ar amrywiol ffurflenni. Oni fyddai cael un gronfa ddata yn goresgyn amryw o’r problemau dilysu y cyfeiriwch atynt? Pryd y byddwch yn sicrhau y gellir croeswirio data fel y gellir gwneud taliadau yn ddiymdroi?

1.40 p.m.

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Elin Jones: The regulation that now governs Tir Gofal payments came into force last year. Therefore, there has been a change in the process of making Tir Gofal payments. That regulation insists on the validation and the cross-checking of single farm payment applications, submitted annually in May, and the Tir Gofal application. Outstanding claims arise because my officers have to raise queries with farmers on the exact cross-checking and mapping that needs to be in place, to ensure that the payment meets the criteria under the EU regulation.

Elin Jones: Daeth y rheoliad sy’n rheoli taliadau Tir Gofal yn awr i rym y llynedd. Felly, mae proses gwneud taliadau Tir Gofal wedi newid. Mae’r rheoliad hwnnw yn mynnu bod ceisiadau am y taliad sengl—a gyflwynir ym mis Mai bob blwyddyn—a cheisiadau Tir Gofal, yn cael eu dilysu a’u croeswirio. Mae hawliadau nas talwyd yn deillio o’r ffaith ei bod yn rhaid i’m swyddogion wneud ymholiadau gyda ffermwyr ar yr union groeswirio a mapio sydd angen ei wneud, er mwyn sicrhau bod y taliad yn bodloni’r meini prawf dan reoliadau’r UE.

Lesley Griffiths: As the recent negotiations in Brussels demonstrated, the acceleration of reducing direct subsidies to farmers is not just a good thing to promote rural development, improve food quality, and increase environmental protection in Wales, but also for Welsh farmers, ultimately. What steps will the Welsh Assembly Government take to help Welsh farmers through the transition phase, to reach a system of support that benefits not just farmers but rural Wales, too?

Lesley Griffiths: Fel y dangosodd y cyd-drafod diweddar ym Mrwsel, mae cyflymu proses lleihau cymorthdaliadau uniongyrchol i ffermwyr yn beth da yng nghyd-destun hyrwyddo datblygiad gwledig, gwella ansawdd bwyd a chynyddu’r warchodaeth amgylchedd yng Nghymru, ond hefyd mae’n fanteisiol i ffermwyr Cymru yn y pen draw. Pa gamau y gwnaiff Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eu cymryd i helpu ffermwyr Cymru drwy’r cyfnod pontio, er mwyn cael system gymorth a fydd o fudd i ffermwyr yn ogystal â chefn gwlad Cymru?

Elin Jones: Under the common agricultural policy, we now have a rural development programme that is worth £795 million over the seven years of its existence, which goes to support rural development programmes in addition to agri-environment schemes and land management schemes for farmers. This morning, I was in Merthyr Tydfil launching the rural development programmes in the four rural wards in that county borough, which have been successful for the first time at accessing rural development funding. I know that your area of Wrexham, Lesley, has also been successful at securing rural development funds. They provide a balance of support directly for farming and for the wider support base that is required by the farming industry and rural communities in the wider perspective, which ensures that we strengthen the rural economy in its entirety and make it diverse enough to be sustainable for the future.

Elin Jones: Dan y polisi amaethyddol cyffredin, mae gennym bellach raglen datblygu gwledig sydd werth £795 miliwn ers ei sefydlu saith mlynedd yn ôl, sy’n mynd at gefnogi rhaglenni datblygu gwledig yn ychwanegol at gynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol a chynlluniau rheoli tir i ffermwyr. Yr oeddwn ym Merthyr Tudful y bore yma yn lansio rhaglenni datblygu gwledig ym mhedair ward wledig y fwrdeistref sirol honno, sydd wedi llwyddo i gael gafael ar gyllid datblygu gwledig am y tro cyntaf. Gwn bod Wrecsam, eich ardal chi Lesley, hefyd wedi llwyddo i sicrhau cyllid datblygu gwledig. Maent yn darparu cydbwysedd o gymorth uniongyrchol i ffermio ac i’r sylfaen gefnogi ehangach sy’n ofynnol gan y diwydiant ffermio a chan gymunedau gwledig yn y safbwynt ehangach, sy’n sicrhau ein bod yn cryfhau’r economi wledig drwyddi draw, ac yn ei gwneud yn ddigon amrywiol i fod yn gynaliadwy i’r dyfodol.

Brynle Williams: Gan ddychwelyd at Brynle Williams: Returning to the first

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gwestiwn cyntaf fy nghyfaill, Mick Bates, am daliadau Tir Gofal, teimlaf yn drist iawn, oherwydd cefais rhyw bedwar ffermwr ar y ffôn y bore yma yn cwyno bod eu taliadau Tir Gofal heb gyrraedd. Ni wn a yw hyn yn wir ai peidio, ac efallai y gallech ystyried y mater, ond y rheswm a gafodd un ffermwr oedd bod yr awdurdodau yn brysur yn ceisio talu’r taliad sengl, sy’n dra phwysig wrth gwrs, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny, ond mae braidd yn gryf pan welwn y Llywodraeth yn rhoi’r pwyslais ar dalu busnesau bychain yn gyfan gwbl ac yn gyflym. Mae £2,000 a mwy wedi’i dalu ar brosiect cyfalaf ar ffensio, ac mae un pâr ifanc yng ngogledd Cymru yn disgwyl yr arian. Beth fedrwch chi ei wneud am y mater, Weinidog? Mae ar bobl wir angen yr arian hwn, yn enwedig ar yr adeg hon.

question asked by my colleague, Mick Bates, about Tir Gofal payments, I feel very sad because I had about four farmers on the telephone this morning complaining that they had not received their Tir Gofal payments. I do not know whether this is true or not, and perhaps you could consider the matter, but the reason given to one farmer was that the authorities were busy trying to process the single farm payment, which is very important, and of course I am grateful for that. However, it is a bit much when we see the Government emphasising paying small businesses swiftly and in full. More than £2,000 has been paid to a capital project on fencing, and one young couple in north Wales are waiting for the money. What can you do about this, Minister? People really need this money, particularly at this time.

Elin Jones: Ni fedraf ymateb am achos unigol o’r fath, ond os hoffech godi’r mater yn ffurfiol ac yn ysgrifenedig gyda mi, ar ran eich etholwyr, buaswn yn hapus i edrych ar y sefyllfa honno. Fel y dywedais, mae 407 o daliadau Tir Gofal heb eu talu ar hyn o bryd ac mae hynny’n rhannol am fod angen trafodaeth bellach gyda ffermwyr i holi cwestiynau penodol. Fel y dywedasoch, mae’r swyddogion sy’n ymdrin â hyn yn ymdrin â rhyw 38,000 o daliadau unigol i ffermwyr. Cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth hon, o dan y gyfraith, yw sicrhau bod y taliadau hynny’n cael eu gwneud yn unol â’r rheoliadau. Gwn y gall hynny fod yn anodd i ffermwyr unigol ei ddeall weithiau, pan welant eu cymdogion yn cael eu talu a hwythau heb eu talu, efallai, ond, yn y pen draw, rhaid inni weinyddu’r arian cyhoeddus hwn yn gyfrifol.

Elin Jones: I cannot respond to individual cases like this, but if you would like to raise the issue with me formally and in writing, on behalf of your constituents, I would be happy to look at that situation. As I said, 407 Tir Gofal payments have not yet been paid and that is partly because further discussion is needed with farmers to ask them specific questions. As you mentioned, the officials who deal with this have to deal with around 38,000 individual payments to farmers. By law, it is the responsibility of this Government to ensure that those payments are made in accordance with the regulations. I know that that can be difficult for individual farmers to understand sometimes, when they see their neighbours being paid and perhaps they have not been, but, at the end of the day, we must administer this public money responsibly.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Dydd Llun nesaf fydd y dyddiad cyntaf i’r taliad sengl gael ei dalu i ffermwyr. Llynedd, yn 2007, llwyddasoch i dalu 80 y cant o’r taliadau hyn cyn y Nadolig, sydd yn safon uchel iawn. A ydych yn hyderus y gallwch wneud yr un fath eleni?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Next Monday will be the first time for the single payment to be paid to farmers. Last year, in 2007, you managed to make 80 per cent of these payments before Christmas, which is a very high standard to achieve. Are you confident that you can do the same this year?

Elin Jones: Hyderaf y gallwn wneud yn well eleni.

Elin Jones: I am confident that we can do even better this year.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 2, OAQ(3)0512(RAF), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 2, OAQ(3)0512(RAF), is withdrawn.

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Development of Young Farmers Datblygu Ffermwyr Ifanc

Q3 Angela Burns: What steps is the Minister taking to encourage the development of young farmers in Wales? OAQ(3)0524(RAF)

C3 Angela Burns: Pa gamau mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i hybu datblygu ffermwyr ifanc yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0524(RAF)

Elin Jones: Training, knowledge transfer and group initiatives will be available to young entrants through the Farming Connect service from 2009. The consultation on support for young entrants to farming has now closed, and the stakeholder group will be analysing the responses and advising on a new support scheme with a £2 million budget to be launched in 2010.

Elin Jones: Bydd hyfforddiant, cyfleoedd i drosglwyddo gwybodaeth a chynlluniau grŵp ar gael i newydd-ddyfodiaid ifanc drwy’r gwasanaeth Cyswllt Ffermio o 2009 ymlaen. Mae’r ymgynghoriad ar gefnogi newydd-ddyfodiaid ifanc i ffermio bellach wedi dod i ben, a bydd y grŵp rhanddeiliaid yn dadansoddi’r ymatebion ac yn cynghori ar gynllun cefnogaeth newydd gyda chyllideb o £2 miliwn a gaiff ei lansio yn 2010.

Angela Burns: I wonder what else you might do in the meantime. Farming Connect has eligibility criteria and will therefore only accept certain farmers. The initiative on getting young people into farming will take effect from 2010. However, that leaves a fairly large gap in the meantime. Young farmers in my constituency and people who are keen to get into farming and farming-related industries desperately need help now. Are there any short-term measures that you can bring to bear?

Angela Burns: Ys gwn i beth arall y gallech ei wneud yn y cyfamser. Mae meini prawf cymhwysedd ynghlwm wrth Cyswllt Ffermio ac felly rhai ffermwyr yn unig a gaiff eu derbyn. Bydd y cynllun i ddenu pobl ifanc i ffermio yn dod i rym o 2010 ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n gadael bwlch weddol fawr yn y cyfamser. Mae angen dybryd am gymorth ar ffermwyr ifanc yn fy etholaeth yn ogystal â phobl sy’n awyddus i ddechrau ffermio a mynd i mewn i ddiwydiannau cysylltiedig. A oes unrhyw fesurau tymor byr y gallwch eu cyflwyno?

Elin Jones: I am not in a position to respond to that question today. I have not yet looked at the consultation responses on support for young entrants. However, as you say, although Farming Connect has a particular role to play, it might be the case that young farmers or young people who are interested in becoming farmers are not eligible for that. I would hope that interested parties have submitted ideas as part of the consultation, so that, in the interim before the budget becomes available, we can consider whether there is any way in which the Assembly Government can provide a degree of support from existing programmes and budgets. I would be keen to investigate that possibility following the consultation process.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw heddiw. Nid wyf wedi edrych eto ar yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad ar gefnogi newydd-ddyfodiaid ifanc. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedwch, er bod gan Cyswllt Ffermio swyddogaeth benodol i’w chwarae, efallai na fydd ffermwyr ifanc neu bobl ifanc sydd â diddordeb mewn bod yn ffermwyr yn gymwys. Byddwn yn gobeithio fod y rheini sydd â diddordeb wedi cyflwyno syniadau fel rhan o’r ymgynghoriad, fel ein bod, yn y cyfamser cyn y bydd y gyllideb ar gael, yn gallu ystyried a oes rhywbeth y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei wneud i roi rhywfaint o gefnogaeth o’r rhaglenni a’r cyllidebau sydd eisoes yn bodoli. Byddwn yn awyddus i ymchwilio i’r posibilrwydd hwnnw yn dilyn y broses ymgynghori.

Mohammad Asghar: I wish to refer to the valuable work done by the Wales Young Farmers Club. Earlier this year, the Minister announced an Assembly Government grant

Mohammad Asghar: Hoffwn gyfeirio at y gwaith gwerthfawr a wneir gan Glybiau Ffermwyr Ifanc Cymru. Yn gynharach eleni, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog grant gwerth

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of £50,000 to support its work. May I have a progress report with regard to what effect that has had on its staffing levels and events this year?

£50,000 gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gefnogi eu gwaith. A gaf adroddiad ar y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd o ran pa effaith y mae hwnnw wedi’i gael ar eu lefelau staffio a’u digwyddiadau eleni?

Elin Jones: The commitment of £50,000 was the result of a one-off application by the YFC. I agree that this organisation is an important one in rural communities and beyond for young people in Wales. The one-off commitment was to meet a particular financial difficulty that the young farmers clubs found themselves in as a result of a dip in income following the Royal Welsh Show in 2007. The funding enabled them to retain their staffing levels and to have a particularly successful Royal Welsh Show this year. The show is important from the point of view of the young farmers not just as a social event, but primarily as an income-generating event for the YFC, enabling it to continue its good work throughout the year.

Elin Jones: Yr oedd ymrwymo’r £50,000 yn ganlyniad i gais untro gan y Clybiau Ffermwyr Ifanc. Cytunaf fod y mudiad hwn yn un pwysig i bobl ifanc mewn cymunedau gwledig a thu hwnt yng Nghymru. Diben yr ymrwymiad untro oedd ymateb i anhawster ariannol penodol yr oedd y clybiau ffermwyr ifanc yn ei wynebu o ganlyniad i ostyngiad mewn incwm ar ôl Sioe Frenhinol Cymru yn 2007. Yr oedd y cyllid wedi’u galluogi i gynnal eu lefelau staffio ac i gael Sioe Frenhinol Cymru hynod o lwyddiannus eleni. Mae’r sioe yn bwysig o safbwynt y ffermwyr ifanc, nid fel digwyddiad cymdeithasol yn unig, ond yn bennaf fel digwyddiad sy’n cynhyrchu incwm i’r Clybiau Ffermwyr Ifanc, sy’n galluogi’r mudiad i barhau â’i waith da drwy gydol y flwyddyn.

Impact of the CAP Health Check Effaith Archwiliad Iechyd PAC

Q4 Michael German: What recent discussions has the Minister had regarding the impact of the CAP health check on Wales? OAQ(3)0528(RAF)

C4 Michael German: Pa drafodaethau mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael yn ddiweddar ynghylch effaith archwiliad iechyd PAC ar Gymru? OAQ(3)0528(RAF)

Elin Jones: I have worked closely with Welsh stakeholders to shape the Assembly Government’s negotiating position at UK and EU levels towards conclusion of the health check on 20 November. I attended the Council of Ministers meeting to ensure that the needs of Wales and Welsh farming were safeguarded.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf wedi gweithio’n agos â rhanddeiliaid o Gymru i sefydlu safbwynt Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wrth gyd-drafod ar lefel y DU ac ar lefel yr UE tuag at ddiwedd y trafodaethau ar yr archwiliad iechyd ar 20 Tachwedd. Mynychais gyfarfod Cyngor y Gweinidogion i sicrhau bod anghenion Cymru a’r diwydiant ffermio yng Nghymru yn cael eu diogelu.

Michael German: I notice from your statement that you are now moving towards an area-based single payments scheme, with a transition period of two to three years. Can you outline the advantages that you see of such a scheme for small-scale Welsh farmers?

Michael German: Sylwais o’ch datganiad eich bod nawr yn symud tuag at gynllun taliadau sengl yn seiliedig ar arwynebedd, gyda chyfnod pontio a fydd yn para rhyw ddwy neu dair blynedd. A allwch amlinellu manteision cynllun o’r fath i ffermwyr bach Cymru yn eich barn chi?

Elin Jones: We had confirmation last week that, as a result of the health check political agreement, we will not need to move to an area-based payments scheme until 2013 in Wales. Therefore, we have a degree of

Elin Jones: Cawsom gadarnhad yr wythnos diwethaf, o ganlyniad i’r cytundeb gwleidyddol ar yr archwiliad iechyd, na fydd angen inni newid i gynllun taliadau yn seiliedig ar arwynebedd tan 2013 yng

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stability and some time for the Government to begin the process of designing the change that will be required of us post-2013. As I said yesterday in response to questions on my statement, a historic-reference-period-based system, with a reference period of 2000 to 2002, has a shelf-life and a relevance for a particular period, and as we get closer to 2020, that historic-reference-period-based system’s shelf-life will run out.

Nghymru. Felly, mae gennym rywfaint o sefydlogrwydd ac amser er mwyn i’r Llywodraeth ddechrau ar y broses o lunio’r newid gofynnol ar ôl 2013. Fel y dywedais ddoe wrth ateb cwestiynau ar fy natganiad, mae system yn seiliedig ar gyfnod cyfeirnod hanesyddol, sy’n cyfeirio at gyfnod rhwng 2000 a 2002, yn mynd yn hen a bydd yn berthnasol i gyfnod penodol yn unig, ac wrth inni ddynesu at 2020, bydd system sy’n seiliedig ar gyfnod cyfeirnod hanesyddol yn mynd yn ddiwerth.

1.50 p.m.

Gareth Jones: Gan ddilyn yr un trywydd, Weinidog, cysylltodd Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru â mi yn ddiweddar. Mae’n dymuno’n fawr i’r taliad sengl barhau i gael ei dalu ar sail hanesyddol. Pe bai’r system yn newid i fod yn system gyfradd unffurf, teimla’r undeb yn gryf iawn y dylid cael cyfnod estynedig o chwe mis, o leiaf, i esmwytho’r newid o un system i’r llall. A wnewch chi amlinellu i ba raddau yr ydych yn trafod y materion hyn gyda’r undebau, a pha sylw yr ydych yn ei roi i’w pryderon?

Gareth Jones: In the same vein, Minister, the Farmers Union of Wales contacted me recently. It expressed its strong desire to see the single farm payment continue to be paid on an historical basis. If the system changed to be a flat-rate system, it is strongly felt that an extended period of at least six months would be needed to facilitate the transition from one system to another. Will you outline the extent to which you are discussing these issues with the unions, and what attention you are paying to their concerns?

Elin Jones: Gan ein bod wedi diogelu cyfnod o sefydlogrwydd dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, bydd gan fy adran gyfle i drafod gydag undebau amaethyddol ac eraill a chychwyn ar y gwaith o ddylunio cynllun y taliad sengl ar ôl 2013, gan ei bod yn bwysig inni roi digon o rybudd i ffermwyr o’r newidiadau posibl sydd ar y gweill. Cefais drafodaeth â’r comisiynydd amaeth am y trosi hwn ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, ac yr oedd hi’n glir y byddai angen cyfnod trosglwyddo, fel y bu ichi ei awgrymu, Gareth. Gallai’r cyfnod trosglwyddo fod yn ddwy neu’n dair blynedd o hyd.

Elin Jones: Given that we have safeguarded a period of stability for the next few years, my department will have an opportunity to discuss with agricultural unions and others, and to start to draw up a single farm payment scheme for post 2013, as it is important that we give farmers enough warning of the possible changes in the pipeline. I had a discussion with the agriculture commissioner regarding this transition some months ago, and she was clear that a transition period would be required, as you suggested, Gareth. The transition period could be for two or three years.

William Graham: Wherever they are in the European Union, farmers want a straightforward common agricultural policy that helps them to deal with market fluctuations and rewards them for their efforts in the delivery of vital product. They do not want to become hostages to paperwork and they do not want further combat with the retail sector. Do you believe that this CAP health check will enable farmers to play on a level playing field?

William Graham: Waeth ble maent yn byw yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, mae ffermwyr am gael polisi amaethyddol cyffredin syml sy’n eu helpu i ddelio â chodiadau neu ostyngiadau yn y farchnad ac sy’n eu gwobrwyo am eu hymdrechion i ddarparu cynnyrch hanfodol. Nid ydynt am fod yn gaeth i waith papur ac nid ydynt am frwydro rhagor â’r sector adwerthu. A ydych yn credu y bydd yr archwiliad iechyd PAC hwn yn rhoi chwarae teg i ffermwyr?

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Elin Jones: Aspects of the decision made last week will ensure that there is a more level playing field. The decision on compulsory modulation and the top-slicing of the single farm payment means that the top-slicing of the single farm payment in the rest of Europe will more closely align itself with the top-slicing that is voluntarily instigated in Wales. Farmers especially will find that a contributory factor in terms of getting a more level playing field.

Elin Jones: Bydd agweddau o’r penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd yr wythnos diwethaf yn sicrhau bod mwy o chwarae teg. Mae’r penderfyniad ar fodiwleiddio gorfodol a brigdorri’r taliad fferm sengl yn golygu y bydd y brigdorri a wneir i’r taliad fferm sengl yng ngweddill Ewrop yn cyfateb yn agosach â’r brigdorri a wneir yn wirfoddol yng Nghymru. Bydd ffermwyr yn arbennig yn gweld hwnnw’n ffactor a fydd yn cyfrannu at gael mwy o chwarae teg.

One of the objectives of the CAP health check was to get simplification. Different commission officials, commissioners, member states and farmers will have different views as to what simplification will have been achieved from this. As I said yesterday, the commission is yet to produce the legislative detail on the political agreement made last week. The devil is often in the detail, and it is about how that detail is implemented in the regulations that follow on from this place. I am keen to ensure, as part of my red-tape review, that the regulation that is put in place in Wales meets the European Union’s auditing requirements and that it is no more burdensome on Welsh farmers or bureaucratic than it needs to be.

Un o amcanion yr archwiliad iechyd PAC oedd symleiddio pethau. Bydd gan swyddogion y comisiwn, comisiynwyr, aelod wladwriaethau a ffermwyr gwahanol safbwyntiau gwahanol o ran faint o symleiddio a gyflawnwyd drwy hyn. Fel y dywedais ddoe, nid yw’r comisiwn wedi cyflwyno’r manylion deddfwriaethol ar y cytundeb gwleidyddol a wnaethpwyd yr wythnos diwethaf. Yn aml, yn y manylion y mae’r rhwystrau, ac mae’n fater o sut caiff y manylion hynny eu gweithredu yn y rheoliadau a fydd yn deillio o’r fan hon. Yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau, fel rhan o’m hadolygiad o fiwrocratiaeth, bod y rheoliadau a gaiff eu gweithredu yng Nghymru yn bodloni gofynion archwilio’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ac nad yw’n fwy o fwrn ar ffermwyr Cymru nac yn fwy biwrocrataidd nag y mae angen iddo fod.

Rheolau Maint a Siapiau Llysiau Rules on the Size and Shape of Vegetables

C5 David Lloyd: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y goblygiadau i ffermwyr yng Nghymru yn sgîl cynigion yr UE i gael gwared ar y rheolau sy’n diffinio maint a siapiau gofynnol y llysiau y caniateir eu gwerthu yn ein siopau a’n harchfarchnadoedd? OAQ(3)0492(RAF)

Q5 David Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the implications to farmers in Wales of the EU’s proposals to scrap the rules currently defining the minimum size and shapes of vegetables allowed for sale in our shops and supermarkets? OAQ(3)0492(RAF)

Elin Jones: Ar hyn o bryd, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gweithio gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig er mwyn datblygu papur ymgynghori sy’n cynnwys dewisiadau ar gyfer cyflwyno’r rheoliad newydd a’i roi ar waith.

Elin Jones: The Welsh Assembly Government is currently working with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to develop a consultation paper containing options for the implementation and delivery of the new regulation.

David Lloyd: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. Gwir yw dweud bod y ddeddfwriaeth a oedd yn bod ar y mater hwn yn golygu y gwastraffwyd llawer o fwyd yn ddiangen, a chafwyd effaith ar incwm ffermwyr o

David Lloyd: Thank you for that response. It is true to say that the legislation that existed on this issue meant that a great deal of food was wasted unnecessarily, and, as a result, it had an impact on farmers’ incomes.

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ganlyniad. Felly, Weinidog, a wnewch ymuno â mi i groesawu’r mesurau newydd hyn ac a wnewch barhau i annog siopau ac archfarchnadoedd i brynu bwyd lleol, pa siâp bynnag y bo?

Therefore, Minister, will you join me in welcoming these new measures, and will you continue to encourage shops and supermarkets to purchase local food, whatever its shape may be?

Elin Jones: Mae’r penderfyniad hwn ar lefel Ewropeaidd i’w groesawu, a rhaid inni ei roi ar waith erbyn 1 Gorffennaf 2009. Bydd yn bosibl i archfarchnadoedd, yn eu cytundebau unigol â chyflenwyr bwyd, barhau i osod gofynion unigol ar y cyflenwyr. Cytunaf yn llwyr ei bod yn bwysig lleihau gwastraff bwyd ac yn gwneud hynny er lles ein ffermwyr, ein pobl, a’n hamgylchedd.

Elin Jones: This decision on the European level is to be welcomed, and we will have to implement it by 1 July 2009. It will be possible for supermarkets, in their individual agreements with food suppliers, to continue to make individual requirements of suppliers. I totally agree that it is important that we reduce food waste and do so for the benefit of our farmers, our people and our environment.

Nick Ramsay: I welcome the Minister’s comments and the question posed by Dai Lloyd. This is an important area. The EU’s agriculture commissioner has called it,

Nick Ramsay: Croesawaf sylwadau’r Gweinidog a’r cwestiwn a ofynnwyd gan Dai Lloyd. Mae hwn yn faes pwysig. Mae comisiynydd amaethyddiaeth yr UE wedi ei alw,

‘a new dawn for the curvy cucumber and the knobbly carrot’.

yn ddechrau newydd i’r ciwcymbr cam ac i’r foronen geinciog.

I am sure that the Minister will agree that, at this time of pressing economic difficulties, it is important that we keep the prices of food down as much as possible. I hope that she will do all that she can in liaising with her colleagues in Brussels to ensure that these regulations are repealed and that similarly ridiculous regulations are not brought in in the future. Minister, as only 20 per cent of farm produce is covered by this area, a large amount of produce has been left out. Will you assure us that you will do what you can to ensure that the consumer gets the best deal possible and that our farmers are supported in this way?

Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno, yn ystod y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn, ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn cadw prisiau bwyd mor isel â phosibl. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff bopeth o fewn ei gallu i gysylltu â’i chyd-Aelodau ym Mrwsel er mwyn sicrhau y caiff y rheoliadau hyn eu diddymu ac na chaiff rheoliadau yr un mor hurt eu cyflwyno yn y dyfodol. Weinidog, gan mai dim ond 20 y cant o gynnyrch fferm a gaiff ei gwmpasu yn y maes hwn, mae llawer o’r cynnyrch wedi’i hepgor. A wnewch ein sicrhau y byddwch yn gwneud popeth o fewn eich gallu er mwyn sicrhau bod y defnyddiwr yn cael y fargen orau bosibl ac y caiff ein ffermwyr eu cefnogi fel hyn?

Elin Jones: I agree with you entirely that we need to ensure that we keep the level of food waste down to a minimum. Any regulation that enables food waste to persist is not a regulation that meets the requirements of this day and age. My work and that of others here will continue to ensure that we decrease food waste. One company in my constituency was a major retainer of the right to advocate the knobbly carrot. The Knobbly Carrot Food Company in Lampeter has been a major advocate of knobbly carrots for a number of years.

Elin Jones: Cytunaf yn llwyr â chi fod angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn cadw lefel gwastraff bwyd mor isel â phosibl. Nid yw rheoliad sy’n arwain at greu gwastraff bwyd yn rheoliad sy’n bodloni gofynion yr oes hon. Bydd fy ngwaith a gwaith pobl eraill yma yn parhau i sicrhau ein bod yn lleihau gwastraff bwyd. Yr oedd un cwmni yn fy etholaeth yn gwmni pwysig o ran cadw’r hawl i hyrwyddo’r foronen geinciog. Mae’r Knobbly Carrot Food Company yn Llambed wedi bod yn hyrwyddo moron ceinciog am flynyddoedd lawer.

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Jenny Randerson: Minister, I strongly welcome this move by the European Union. On my visits abroad on holiday, I have noted that French supermarkets, for example, have always stocked knobbly carrots and slightly imperfect lettuces, and I do not see why we in Britain, very typically, have adhered to this regulation much more strictly than most other EU countries have. However, I have a serious point to make. What work you intend to do to ensure that supermarkets in Wales stock not only knobbly Welsh carrots, but Welsh products in general? Despite this regulation being rescinded, the produce that supermarkets stock will be in their own hands. Educating the supermarket managers and those who order the products is the most important issue.

Jenny Randerson: Weinidog, yr wyf yn croesawu’r cam hwn gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn fawr iawn. Ar wyliau tramor, yr wyf wedi sylwi bod marchnadoedd yn Ffrainc, er enghraifft, wedi parhau i stocio moron ceinciog a letys amherffaith, ac ni ddeallaf pam ein bod ni ym Mhrydain, er ei fod yn nodweddiadol iawn, wedi glynu wrth y rheoliad hwn yn llawer mwy llym na’r rhan fwyaf o wledydd eraill yr UE. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf bwynt difrifol i’w wneud. Pa waith yr ydych yn bwriadu ei wneud er mwyn sicrhau bod archfarchnadoedd yng Nghymru yn stocio nid yn unig moron ceinciog o Gymru, ond cynhyrchion o Gymru yn gyffredinol? Er bod y rheoliad hwn wedi’i ddiddymu, yr archfarchnadoedd fydd yn gyfrifol am y cynnyrch y byddant yn ei stocio. Addysgu rheolwyr yr archfarchnadoedd a’r rheini sy’n archebu cynhyrchion yw’r mater pwysicaf.

Elin Jones: As you say, the supermarkets can retain their own individual contracts with their suppliers that contain their own demands. It is important to work with supermarkets to get them into the spirit of this new regulation, but also with customers. As customers, a number of us have become too used to having nice, linear, orange carrots, and we need to educate ourselves as much as the supermarkets do.

Elin Jones: Fel y dywedasoch, gall yr archfarchnadoedd gadw eu cytundebau unigol gyda’u cyflenwyr sy’n cynnwys eu gofynion eu hunain. Mae’n bwysig gweithio gydag archfarchnadoedd i’w hannog i arddel meddylfryd y rheoliad newydd hwn, ond y mae’n bwysig gwneud hyn gyda’r cwsmeriaid hefyd. Fel cwsmeriaid, mae llawer ohonom wedi dod yn rhy gyfarwydd â chael moron syth, oren, hyfryd, ac y mae angen inni addysgu ein hunain yn yr un modd â’r archfarchnadoedd.

Siopau mewn Cymunedau Gwledig Shops in Rural Communities

C6 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gefnogaeth ar gyfer siopau mewn cymunedau gwledig? OAQ(3)0522(RAF)

Q6 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Minister make a statement on support for shops in rural communities? OAQ(3)0522(RAF)

Elin Jones: Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod ein cymunedau gwledig yn parhau’n gynaliadwy, ac mae mynediad da at wasanaethau fel siopau lleol yn hanfodol i gyflawni hynny. Dyna pam mae siop sy’n gwerthu bwyd yn unig yn cael ei hystyried yn wasanaeth allweddol yng nghyd-destun yr astudiaeth o ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell y soniais amdani yn fy natganiad ar 11 Tachwedd.

Elin Jones: We are committed to ensuring that our rural communities remain sustainable, and good access to services like local shops is essential to achieving that. That is why a food-only shop is regarded as a key service in the context of the deep rural study that I spoke about in my statement on 11 November.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn falch o Eleanor Burnham: I am pleased to hear that

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glywed eich bod yn cefnogi cefn gwlad. Gwn eich bod yn dod o gefn gwlad. Fodd bynnag, yng nghyd-destun siopau sydd wedi gorfod cau a chwtogi nifer y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan swyddfeydd post, er enghraifft—ac mae rhai o’r rhain ynghlwm wrth siopau bychain—beth yn union ydych chi wedi’i wneud a pha drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael er mwyn sicrhau na fydd mwy yn cau a bod cefnogaeth well iddynt? Gyda phwysau ariannol a phwysau’r archfarchnadoedd ac ati, mae’n sefyllfa anodd. Felly, hoffwn glywed eich ymateb i hynny, os gwelwch yn dda.

you support rural Wales. I know that you come from a rural area yourself. However, in the context of shops that have had to close or cut back on the number of services that are offered by our post offices, for instance—and some of them are connected to small shops—what exactly have you done and what discussions have you had to ensure that no more will close and that there is better support for them? With financial pressure and the pressure of the supermarkets and so on, it is a difficult situation. Therefore, I would like to hear your response to that, please.

2.00 p.m.

Elin Jones: Eleanor, fe wyddoch fod y Llywodraeth hon yn gefnogol o rwydwaith y swyddfeydd post, a’n bod yn amlinellu hynny mewn sawl ffordd—yn gyntaf, drwy’r gostyngiadau sylweddol yn y dreth fusnes ar gyfer swyddfeydd post ac, yn ail, drwy’r ymgynghoriad diweddar gan y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros y maes hwn ar gronfa datblygu swyddfeydd post. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod chi, fel minnau, yn croesawu penderfyniad Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn ddiweddar i gadw’r cytundeb ar gyfer cyfrif cerdyn swyddfa post.

Elin Jones: You will be aware, Eleanor, that this Government supports the post office network and that we outline that in a number of ways—first of all, through the substantial reductions in business rates for post offices and, secondly, through the recent consultation conducted by the Minister with responsibility for this area on the post office development fund. I am confident that you, like me, welcome the United Kingdom Government’s recent decision to keep the contract for the post office card account.

Alun Davies: Minister, will you join me in wishing well the group of people who are trying to sustain and support Dryslwyn village shop in Carmarthenshire, following the closure of the post office earlier this year? They have created a co-operative group to maintain the shop in the village, which has been there for 156 years. Do you agree that it should be the role of Government—of your department, perhaps working with the Department for Social Justice and Local Government—to support people who want to maintain shops in communities and to create the sort of social enterprises and co-operatives that will enable them to do so?

Alun Davies: Weinidog, a wnewch ymuno â mi i ddymuno’n dda i’r grŵp o bobl sy’n ceisio cynnal a chefnogi siop y pentref yn y Dryslwyn yn sir Gaerfyrddin, ar ôl cau swyddfa’r post yn gynharach eleni? Maent wedi creu grŵp cydweithredol i gadw’r siop yn y pentref, siop sydd wedi bod yno er 156 o flynyddoedd. A gytunwch y dylai fod yn rôl i Lywodraeth—ac i’ch adran chi, gan weithio efallai gyda’r Adran dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol—gefnogi pobl sy’n dymuno cadw siopau mewn cymunedau a chreu’r math o fentrau cymdeithasol a chydweithredol a fydd yn eu galluogi i wneud hynny?

Elin Jones: I wish Dryslwyn village shop enterprise well in its efforts to retain the village store, following the withdrawal of the post office. I know from my experience in west Wales that some village shops have been unable to continue after the withdrawal of the post office service, while others are endeavouring to carry on. The rural retail

Elin Jones: Dymunaf yn dda i fenter siop y pentref yn y Dryslwyn yn ei hymdrechion i’w chadw, ar ôl cau swyddfa’r post. Gwn, yn sgil fy mhrofiad yn y gorllewin, fod rhai siopau pentref wedi gorfod rhoi’r gorau iddi ar ôl cau gwasanaeth swyddfa’r post, er bod eraill yn ymdrechu i fwrw ymlaen. Mae’r cynllun manwerthu gwledig, y mae’r

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scheme, for which this Assembly Government is responsible, does offer some financial support for community groups and social enterprises that are looking to develop a co-operative model to retain a village shop and I hope that your constituents are looking at that particular scheme to see whether it can be of support to them.

Llywodraeth hon yn gyfrifol amdano, yn cynnig rhywfaint o gymorth ariannol i grwpiau cymunedol ac i fentrau cymdeithasol sy’n awyddus i ddatblygu model cydweithredol er mwyn cadw siop mewn pentref a gobeithiaf fod eich etholwyr yn edrych ar y cynllun penodol hwnnw i weld a all fod o gymorth iddynt.

Angela Burns: Minister, Gordon Brown’s claim this week to be providing relief for businesses is totally derisory. Small businesses in my constituency are encountering increased transport costs, face costs of up to £2,500 for implementing the changes to VAT now and when VAT is changed back, which is on top of the current economic situation. What will you do to ensure that small shops and businesses are protected, particularly in rural Wales, and what assistance will the Government be giving?

Angela Burns: Weinidog, mae honiad Gordon Brown yr wythnos hon ei fod yn rhoi cymorth i fusnesau’n gwbl sarhaus. Mae busnesau bach yn fy etholaeth yn wynebu costau cludiant uwch, yn wynebu costau hyd at £2,500 i roi’r newidiadau TAW ar waith yn awr a phan gaiff ei newid yn ôl, ac mae hynny ar ben y sefyllfa economaidd bresennol. Beth a wnewch i sicrhau bod siopau a busnesau bychain yn cael eu gwarchod, yn enwedig yn y Gymru wledig, a pha gymorth y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei roi?

On Alun Davies’s point about community shops, may I suggest a way forward? I suggest that the Government consider giving small farm shops and small businesses in rural areas a grant to enable them to employ a young entrant into the agricultural industry, particularly when, in rural farm shops, skills such as butchery are taught? That would aid you in your aim to bring more people into the agricultural industry and would show that the Government can be proactive. I trust that you will consider my suggestion carefully.

Ynglŷn â phwynt Alun Davies am siopau cymunedol, a gaf gynnig ffordd ymlaen? Awgrymaf fod y Llywodraeth yn ystyried rhoi grant i siopau fferm bychain ac i fusnesau bychain mewn ardaloedd gwledig i’w galluogi i gyflogi newydd-ddyfodiad i’r diwydiant amaethyddol, yn enwedig pan ddysgir medrau megis trin cig mewn siopau fferm yng nghefn gwlad? Byddai hynny’n gymorth ichi yn eich nod o ddenu mwy o bobl i’r diwydiant amaethyddol a byddai’n dangos y gall y Llywodraeth fod yn rhagweithiol. Hyderaf yr ystyriwch fy awgrym yn ofalus.

Elin Jones: That is an interesting suggestion. The Assembly Government does support farm shops through our rural development plan work, and farm shops in Pembrokeshire, for example, have been supported through those mechanisms. The rural retail scheme also provides some degree of support for rural shop enterprises. I am keen to develop local food initiatives, and the role of local farm shops is particularly important in that regard. I will take away your suggestion. You have missed the closing date of the consultation on new entrants to farming, but I will ensure that the idea is there in front of me for my consideration of that consultation.

Elin Jones: Dyna awgrym diddorol. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cefnogi siopau fferm drwy gyfrwng ein gwaith ar y cynllun datblygu gwledig ac mae siopau fferm yn sir Benfro, er enghraifft, wedi cael cymorth drwy gyfrwng y mecanweithiau hynny. Mae’r cynllun manwerthu gwledig hefyd yn rhoi rhywfaint o gymorth i fentrau siopau gwledig, Yr wyf yn awyddus i ddatblygu mentrau bwyd lleol ac mae rôl siopau fferm lleol yn arbennig o bwysig yn y cyswllt hwnnw. Ystyriaf eich awgrym. Mae dyddiad cau’r ymgynghori ynglŷn â newydd-ddyfodiaid i ffermio wedi mynd heibio, ond sicrhaf fod y syniad yno o’m blaen wrth imi ystyried yr ymgynghori hwnnw.

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Chris Franks: I welcome the Welsh Assembly Government’s £7 million non-domestic rate relief scheme that rural shops can access. What discussions have you had regarding the clustering of services as occurs in Ireland, where, say, a pub, a grocery store and a butchers’ shop share one building? What further support can be given to small stores through the rural retail programme grant?

Chris Franks: Croesawaf gynllun rhyddhad ardrethi busnes gwerth £7 miliwn Lywodraeth y Cynulliad sydd ar gael i siopau gwledig. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael ynglŷn â chlystyru gwasanaethau fel sy’n digwydd yn Iwerddon, lle bydd, dyweder, tafarn, siop fwyd a siop y cigydd yn rhannu un adeilad? Pa gymorth ychwanegol y gellir ei roi i siopau bychain drwy gyfrwng grant y rhaglen manwerthu gwledig.

Elin Jones: I do not recall having any particular discussions on the clustering of services in villages. It is very much the case that clustering is no longer an option in a number of villages in rural Wales because there are not enough services left to be clustered. In those villages that have enough services to do that, it would certainly be common sense, cost-efficiency wise, to look at the clustering of services. There are some such examples in Wales. I know that a number of organisations that deal with rural development have been working on these ideas for several years and if there are villages and communities out there that are keen to undertake a project of this nature, I would like to hear from them.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf yn cofio imi gael trafodaethau penodol ynglŷn â chlystyru gwasanaethau mewn pentrefi. Mae’n sicr yn wir nad yw clystyru’n ddewis rhagor mewn nifer o bentrefi yn y Gymru wledig oherwydd nad oes digon o wasanaethau ar ôl yno i’w clystyru. Yn y pentrefi hynny lle mae digon o wasanaethau i wneud hynny, byddai’n sicr yn synnwyr cyffredin, o safbwynt cost-effeithlonrwydd, ystyried clystyru gwasanaethau. Ceir ambell enghraifft o hynny yng Nghymru. Gwn fod nifer o sefydliadau sy’n gweithio ym maes datblygu gwledig wedi bod yn gweithio ar y syniadau hyn ers nifer o flynyddoedd ac os oes pentrefi a chymunedau sy’n awyddus i ymgymryd â phrosiect o’r fath, hoffwn glywed ganddynt.

Ffermio’r Bryniau Hill Farming

C7 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddyfodol ffermio’r bryniau yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0521(RAF)

Q7 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Minister make a statement on the future of hill farming in Wales? OAQ(3)0521(RAF)

Elin Jones: Nod y strategaeth newydd ar gyfer ffermio, bwyd a chefn gwlad yw sicrhau dyfodol proffidiol a chynaliadwy i’r diwydiant cyfan. Byddaf yn gweithio gyda chynrychiolwyr y diwydiant i lunio’r strategaeth derfynol ddechrau 2009. Ffermwyr mynydd sy’n ffermio 80 y cant o’r tir amaethyddol yng Nghymru, a bydd y strategaeth yn ymdrin â’r hyn sydd o bwys iddynt, yn ogystal â’r adolygiad ar newidiadau i gynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol o dan echel 2.

Elin Jones: The new strategy for farming, food and countryside aims to secure a profitable and sustainable future for the industry as a whole. I will be working with industry representatives to finalise the strategy early in 2009. Hill and upland farmers farm 80 per cent of the agricultural land area, and the strategy will address the issues that are of concern to them, as well as the review of the changes to agri-environment schemes under axis 2.

Eleanor Burnham: Mae’n debyg eich bod chi’n gwybod, yn fwy na neb, fod llawer o ffermwyr yn cael eu gorfodi i adael ffermio oherwydd pwysau ariannol a’i fod yn bwysig bod y sgiliau hyn yn cael eu cadw. A allwch roi diweddariad i mi o ran nifer y bobl sydd wedi ymuno â’r cynllun newydd ddyfodiaid

Eleanor Burnham: In all likelihood, you are more aware than anyone else that many farmers are being forced to leave farming because of the financial pressure and that it is important that those skills be retained. Could you give me an update on how many people have taken up the new entrants’ scheme

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yn ddiweddar? recently?

Elin Jones: Nid yw’r cynllun newydd ddyfodiaid ar gyfer ffermwyr ifanc wedi cychwyn eto, felly nid oes neb wedi ymuno. Cymeraf y cyfle hwn i ddweud bod y ffigurau ar incwm ffermydd wedi eu rhyddhau heddiw ac maent yn fwy calonogol nag a fuont ers sawl blwyddyn. Bu cynnydd yn incwm ffermydd dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf o 23 y cant, sy’n gynnydd sylweddol. Wrth gwrs, fel y mae’n debyg y byddai ffermwyr yn barod iawn i bwyntio allan i mi, yr oedd yr incwm sylfaenol yn isel i gychwyn, ond mae’n bosibl bod y duedd ar i fyny yn awr.

Elin Jones: The new entrants scheme has not yet started and therefore the take-up stands at zero at the moment. I will take this opportunity to state that the figures on farm incomes have been released today, and they are more encouraging than they have been for a number of years. There has been an increase of 23 per cent in farm income over the past year, which is a significant increase. Of course, as I am sure farmers would be very willing to point out to me, the basic income was very low to begin with, but it is possible that the trend is going upwards now.

Janet Ryder: Minister, a number of industries are springing up that use produce from Welsh hill farms. Black Mountain Insulation Ltd is one such company. What is your Government doing to support diversification in the use of produce from hill farms in this way?

Janet Ryder: Weinidog, mae nifer o ddiwydiannau’n egino sy’n defnyddio cynnyrch ffermydd mynydd Cymru. Un cwmni o’r fath yw Black Mountain Insulation Ltd. Beth mae eich Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i gefnogi arallgyfeirio wrth ddefnyddio cynnyrch y ffermydd mynydd fel hyn?

Elin Jones: The rural development plan is a £795 million programme that is primarily funded by the Assembly Government, although there is also some funding from Europe. The basis of that programme is to ensure diversification of the rural economic base and it includes direct support for farmers in their endeavours to diversify. It also looks at the food-producing industries and the other industries that are related to agricultural products to ensure that we can increase the value that is added by those industries, to spread value from within the farm base out to the wider industrial arena, and to therefore spread the economic opportunities in rural areas.

Elin Jones: Rhaglen gwerth £795 miliwn yw’r cynllun datblygu gwledig ac fe’i noddir yn bennaf gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, er bod rhywfaint o arian yn dod gan Ewrop hefyd. Hanfod y rhaglen honno yw sicrhau arallgyfeirio’r sylfaen economaidd wledig ac mae’n cynnwys cymorth uniongyrchol i ffermwyr yn eu hymdrechion i arallgyfeirio. Mae’n edrych hefyd ar y diwydiannau cynhyrchu bwyd a’r diwydiannau eraill sy’n gysylltiedig â chynnyrch amaethyddol er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gallu cynyddu’r gwerth ychwanegol a gynigir gan y diwydiannau hynny, lledaenu’r gwerth o’r tu mewn i sylfaen y fferm allan i’r maes diwydiannol ehangach, ac felly, ledaenu’r cyfleoedd economaidd mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

Brynle Williams: Minister, we are already seeing the national flock declining because of difficulties with farming in the uplands. It is pleasing that we have seen a slight movement in the income figures today, however, that is before your Government introduces electronic identification for sheep. The retention of historic-model payments under the common agricultural policy is to be welcomed, but, as I said yesterday in reply to your statement, the introduction of the

Brynle Williams: Weinidog, yr ydym eisoes yn gweld y ddiadell genedlaethol yn dirywio oherwydd anawsterau ffermio ar yr ucheldir. Mae’n dda ein bod wedi gweld mymryn o symud yn ffigurau’r incwm heddiw. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny cyn i’ch Llywodraeth gyflwyno tagio electronig ar gyfer defaid. Mae cadw taliadau’r model hanesyddol dan y polisi amaethyddol cyffredin i’w groesawu, ond, fel y dywedais ddoe, wrth ymateb i’ch datganiad, bydd cyflwyno’r gyfradd unffurf

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simpler area-based flat rate post 2013 will lead to larger ranch-style farms and will not deliver agri-environment benefits. Do you not agree, Minister, that it is essential to keep small family farms on the hills, as they will deliver the greatest public good?

symlach seiliedig ar ardaloedd ar ôl 2013 yn arwain at ffermydd mwy, rhai tebyg i ranshis, ac ni ddaw manteision amaeth-amgylcheddol yn sgil y rheini. Oni chytunwch, Weinidog, ei bod yn hanfodol cadw ffermydd teulu bach ar y mynyddoedd, gan mai’r rhain fydd yn dwyn y lles pennaf i’r cyhoedd?

2.10 p.m.

Elin Jones: I agree completely that our model of farming in Wales, which is still based upon small, family farms, is important socially, economically and environmentally. The decline in sheep numbers in Wales is primarily the result of the decoupling of payments from production, and the move to the historically based system of payments that we currently use. The encouraging aspect of today’s farm income statistics is that, although the numbers of sheep are declining, the income for these farms is increasing. That means that farmers are looking at their costs base as well as market prices and numbers of sheep. These days, it is not so much a numbers game as a value game.

Elin Jones: Cytunaf yn llwyr bod y model ffermio sydd gennym yng Nghymru, model sydd wedi’i seilio o hyd ar ffermydd teulu bychain, yn bwysig o safbwynt cymdeithasol, economaidd ac amgylcheddol. Mae’r dirywiad yn nifer y defaid yng Nghymru’n digwydd yn bennaf yn sgil datgysylltu’r taliadau oddi wrth y cynhyrchu a’r symudiad tuag at y system taliadau hanesyddol a ddefnyddiwn ar hyn o bryd. Agwedd galonogol ystadegau incwm ffermydd heddiw yw, er bod nifer y defaid yn gostwng, bod incwm y ffermydd hyn ar gynnydd. Mae hynny’n golygu bod ffermwyr yn edrych ar eu sylfaen gostau, yn ogystal ag ar brisiau’r farchnad a nifer y defaid. Yn yr oes hon, nid gêm rhifau ond gêm gwerth yw hi.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 8, OAQ(3)0503(RAF), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 8, OAQ(3)0503(RAF), is withdrawn.

Food Security Diogelwch Bwyd

Q9 Joyce Watson: Will the Minister make a statement outlining the Welsh Assembly Government’s priorities for food security? OAQ(3)0530(RAF)

C9 Joyce Watson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad yn amlinellu blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer diogelwch bwyd? OAQ(3)0530(RAF)

Q12 Brynle Williams: Will the Minister outline the Welsh Assembly Government’s priorities for food security? OAQ(3)0511(RAF)

C12 Brynle Williams: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer diogelwch bwyd? OAQ(3)0511(RAF)

Elin Jones: I am keen to see Wales produce more of the food that we eat, particularly fruit and vegetables. Through the Assembly Government’s Farming Connect scheme support is available for farmers to diversify into horticulture, and there are other programmes available to help the industry to supply more produce locally.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn awyddus i weld Cymru yn cynhyrchu mwy o’r bwyd yr ydym yn ei fwyta, yn arbennig ffrwythau a llysiau. Drwy gynllun Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cyswllt Ffermio, mae cefnogaeth ar gael i ffermwyr arallgyfeirio i faes garddwriaeth, ac mae rhaglenni eraill ar gael i helpu’r diwydiant i gyflenwi mwy o gynnyrch yn lleol.

Joyce Watson: Issues around balancing the need for productive agriculture and food

Joyce Watson: Mae cryn sylw wedi’i roi’n ddiweddar i sicrhau bod cydbwysedd rhwng

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supply with the long-term need for sustainable land management have been much in focus recently. The planned strike by meat hygiene inspectors threatens meat supply in the run-up to Christmas. Could you give a brief update on any discussions that you have had with the Meat Hygiene Service and Unison on the planned strike?

yr angen i amaethyddiaeth fod yn gynhyrchiol a chyflenwi bwyd â’r angen tymor hir i reoli tir mewn modd cynaliadwy. Mae’r streic sydd yn yr arfaeth gan archwilwyr hylendid cig, yn bygwth y cyflenwad cig ar drothwy’r Nadolig. A allech roi diweddariad cryno inni ynglŷn ag unrhyw drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda’r Gwasanaeth Hylendid Gig ac Unsain ynglŷn â’r cynllun i streicio?

Elin Jones: I am aware of the intention of the Meat Hygiene Service to strike—for three days, if memory serves. My colleague Gwenda Thomas, who leads on issues around the Meat Hygiene Service and the Food Standards Agency, intends to meet the FSA in the near future, if she has not already done so—I may not have heard about it—to discuss this very issue.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn gwybod am fwriad y Gwasanaeth Hylendid Cig i streicio—am dridiau, os cofiaf yn iawn. Mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Gwenda Thomas, sy’n arwain ym maes materion sy’n ymwneud â’r Gwasanaeth Hylendid Cig a’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd, yn bwriadu cyfarfod â’r Asiantaeth yn y dyfodol agos, os nad yw wedi gwneud hynny eisoes—efallai nad wyf wedi clywed amdano—i drafod yr union beth hwn.

Brynle Williams: Minister, I am sure that you support the Welsh dairy industry and recognise the importance of maintaining production at sustainable levels to ensure security of supplies for the future. However, the market for Welsh milk can be undermined when its provenance is called into question. You were quoted in the Western Mail yesterday as saying that Cymru Dairy’s produce was

Brynle Williams: Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn cefnogi diwydiant llaeth Cymru ac yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd cynnal y cynhyrchu ar lefelau cynaliadwy er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch cyflenwadau at y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, os nad oes sicrwydd ynglŷn â tharddiad llaeth Cymru, gallai hynny danseilio’r farchnad. Fe’ch dyfynnwyd yn y Western Mail ddoe yn dweud bod cynnyrch Cymru Dairy:

‘produced, processed and packaged in Wales’.

‘yn cael ei gynhyrchu, ei brosesu a’i becynnu yng Nghymru’.

Just this morning I have, regrettably, had several complaints saying that this appears not to be the case. Could you comment on that? Do you stand by your statement? Has any Assembly Government money been put into this particular company?

Dim ond y bore yma, yn anffodus, yr wyf wedi cael nifer o gwynion yn dweud nad yw hyn yn wir i bob golwg. A allech ddweud rhywbeth am hynny? A ydych yn glynu wrth eich datganiad? A yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi rhoi unrhyw arian i’r cwmni penodol hwn?

Elin Jones: You have obviously been busy on the phone this morning, because you are quoting lots of communications to me this afternoon. Yes, I support the dairy industry in Wales, and yes, I attended the launch of the rebranding of the Cymru Dairy company in west Cardiff last week. I am not responsible for the exact wording of the article in the Western Mail. I support the rebranding of this company as Cymru Dairy. I have met the

Elin Jones: Mae’n amlwg eich bod wedi bod yn brysur ar y ffôn y bore yma, oherwydd yr ydych yn dyfynnu llu o sgyrsiau wrthyf y prynhawn yma. Ydwyf, yr wyf yn cefnogi’r diwydiant llaeth yng Nghymru, a do, bûm yn ail-lansio cwmni Cymru Dairy yng ngorllewin Caerdydd yr wythnos diwethaf. Nid wyf yn gyfrifol am union eiriad yr erthygl yn y Western Mail. Cefnogaf ailfrandio’r cwmni hwn dan yr enw Cymru

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company’s owners to discuss their plans for the future. I do not think that anyone is under any misapprehension that all the milk produced in Wales is processed in Wales, or that all milk processed in Wales was produced in Wales. The basis upon which this company currently operates was clear to me, and I hope to work with the company as it develops its work in Wales.

Dairy. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â pherchnogion y cwmni i drafod eu cynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ni chredaf fod neb dan unrhyw gamargraff fod yr holl laeth a gynhyrchir yng Nghymru cael ei brosesu yng Nghymru, na bod yr holl laeth a brosesir yng Nghymru wedi’i gynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Yr oedd yn glir imi ar ba sail y mae’r cwmni hwn yn gweithredu ar hyn o bryd, a gobeithiaf weithio gyda’r cwmni wrth iddo ddatblygu ei waith yng Nghymru.

The Presiding Officer: Order. None of us are responsible for the Western Mail, Minister. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid oes dim un ohonom yn gyfrifol am y Western Mail, Weinidog. [Chwerthin.]

Leanne Wood: What discussions have you had, Minister, with other European Union partners and organisations regarding food security? I am sure that you will be aware that Plaid Cymru Member of the European Parliament, Jill Evans, has tabled an amendment to the Rosskowski report, calling for more investment in farmers’ markets in order to increase food security. What is the One Wales Government’s position on the common agricultural policy reform? Do you agree that any reform must ensure the security of food and must also fully take into account the climate crisis?

Leanne Wood: Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael, Weinidog, gyda sefydliadau a phartneriaid eraill o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ynghylch diogelwch bwyd? Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn ymwybodol bod Jill Evans, Aelod Plaid Cymru o Senedd Ewrop, wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i adroddiad Rosskowski, gan alw am fwy o fuddsoddi mewn marchnadoedd ffermwyr er mwyn cynyddu diogelwch bwyd. Beth yw safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un ar ddiwygio’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin? A gytunwch ei bod yn rhaid i unrhyw ddiwygiad sicrhau diogelwch bwyd a’i bod yn rhaid iddo hefyd ystyried yn llawn yr hinsawdd argyfyngus sydd ohoni?

Elin Jones: During my involvement in the CAP health check and the Council of Ministers, I have seen the term ‘food security’ become very fashionable. Many politicians use it as a supplement to support protectionism. Countries have a responsibility to secure future food supplies for their people, and, in order to do that, our priority is to increase the use of local supply chains, linking production and processing more closely with local consumption. In that way, we can strengthen food supply chains locally, nationally and in neighbouring markets. As a Government, we have a commitment to supporting farmers’ markets. I have recently gone through a tendering exercise to provide support to a network that will develop and strengthen farmers’ markets into the future.

Elin Jones: Yn yr amser yr wyf wedi bod yn ymwneud ag archwiliad iechyd y PAC a Chyngor y Gweinidogion, yr wyf wedi gweld y term ‘diogelwch bwyd’ yn dod yn ffasiynol iawn. Mae llawer o wleidyddion yn ei ddefnyddio fel arf ychwanegol i gefnogi diffyndollaeth. Mae gan wledydd gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau cyflenwadau bwyd i’w pobl i’r dyfodol, ac, er mwyn gwneud hynny, ein blaenoriaeth yw sicrhau y defnyddir mwy ar gadwyni cyflenwi lleol, gan greu gwell cyswllt rhwng y cam cynhyrchu a’r cam prosesu a defnydd lleol. Yn y ffordd honno, gallwn gryfhau’r cadwyni cyflenwi bwyd yn lleol, yn genedlaethol ac mewn marchnadoedd cyfagos. Mae gennym, fel Llywodraeth, ymrwymiad i gefnogi marchnadoedd ffermwyr. Yn ddiweddar, yr wyf wedi cynnal proses dendro i ddarparu cymorth i rwydwaith a fydd yn datblygu ac yn cryfhau marchnadoedd ffermwyr i’r dyfodol.

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Kirsty Williams: In the challenging economic conditions that we currently face, the food industry will see consumers prioritising expenditure on food. With foreign imports and the supermarkets being as dominant as they are, what guarantees can we have that that expenditure will trickle down to Welsh producers? It is not about protectionism or limiting free trade; it is about promoting fair trade and the ability for Welsh farmers to sell their produce. Could you give us an update on when you intend to bring forward your local sourcing action plan, and when will we see some action emanating from it?

Kirsty Williams: Yn yr amodau economaidd heriol a wynebwn ar hyn o bryd, bydd y diwydiant bwyd yn gweld defnyddwyr yn blaenoriaethu wrth wario ar fwyd. Ac ystyried y mewnforion o dramor a’r modd y mae archfarchnadoedd yn dominyddu, pa sicrwydd a gawn y bydd y gwariant hwnnw’n cyrraedd cynhyrchwyr Cymru? Nid oes a wnelo hyn â diffyndollaeth na chyfyngu masnach rydd; mae a wnelo â hyrwyddo masnach deg a rhoi’r gallu i ffermwyr Cymru werthu eu cynnyrch. A allech roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni ynghylch pryd y bwriadwch ddwyn ymlaen eich cynllun gweithredu cyrch lleol, a phryd y byddwn yn gweld rhywfaint o weithredu yn deillio ohono?

Elin Jones: I hope to be able to publish the local sourcing action plan early in the new year; I have spoken of it on several occasions, and I am keen to see it put into operation. The Government is already undertaking a lot of work with local authorities on the procurement of food produce in the public sector, and our commitment is to increase that effort for the benefit of local food supply chains, and for the producers and processors ultimately.

Elin Jones: Gobeithiaf y gallaf gyhoeddi’r cynllun gweithredu cyrch lleol yn fuan yn y flwyddyn newydd; yr wyf wedi sôn amdano droeon, ac yr wyf yn awyddus i’w weld yn cael ei roi ar waith. Mae’r Llywodraeth eisoes yn cynnal llawer o waith gydag awdurdodau lleol yng nghyd-destun caffael cynnyrch bwyd yn y sector cyhoeddus, a’n hymrwymiad yw ychwanegu at yr ymdrech honno er budd cadwyni cyflenwi bwyd lleol, ac er budd y cynhyrchwyr a’r prosesyddion yn y pen draw.

Electronic Identification of Sheep Adnabod Defaid yn Electronig

Q10 Sandy Mewies: What progress has the Minister made in ensuring that the Welsh Assembly Government’s position on the electronic identification of sheep is clearly articulated in Europe? OAQ(3)0515(RAF)

C10 Sandy Mewies: Pa gynnydd mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud o ran sicrhau bod safbwynt Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ynghylch adnabod defaid yn electronig yn cael ei gyfleu yn glir yn Ewrop? OAQ(3)0515(RAF)

Elin Jones: I am still awaiting a formal response to my letter to Commissioner Vassiliou. However, I am pleased to confirm that the commissioner has indicated that she is willing to meet, and that arrangements are in hand. The commissioner has offered to visit the UK to see the practical difficulties of implementing the EID. The Welsh Assembly Government is working with the industry and with the other UK administrations to agree a visit programme.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn dal i aros am ateb ffurfiol i’m llythyr at Gomisiynydd Vassiliou. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bleser gennyf gadarnhau bod y comisiynydd wedi dweud ei bod yn fodlon cyfarfod, a bod trefniadau ar y gweill. Mae’r comisiynydd wedi cynnig ymweld â’r DU i weld yr anawsterau ymarferol sy’n gysylltiedig â sefydlu’r system tagio electronig. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gweithio gyda’r diwydiant a chyda gweinyddiaethau eraill y DU i gytuno ar raglen ar gyfer yr ymweliad.

Sandy Mewies: Can you assure me that, as a Sandy Mewies: A allwch fy sicrhau, yn sgil

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result of concerns that have been raised not just by people in my constituency, but Wales-wide, our position will be clearly stated, and will hopefully be accepted sometime in the future?

pryderon a godwyd nid yn unig gan bobl yn fy etholaeth, ond drwy Gymru gyfan, y bydd ein safbwynt yn cael ei ddatgan yn glir, ac yn cael ei dderbyn gobeithio rywdro yn y dyfodol?

Elin Jones: The Welsh Assembly Government’s position is clear—we would not voluntarily introduce electronic ID; that is also the position of the UK Government. The UK Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Hilary Benn, has had a meeting with Commissioner Vassiliou in the last few weeks, when that position was reiterated. However, the commission retains its position that it wants to see the mandatory introduction of this regulation in January 2010.

Elin Jones: Mae safbwynt Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn glir—ni fyddem yn cyflwyno tagio electronig o’n gwirfodd; dyna safbwynt Llywodraeth y DU hefyd. Mae Ysgrifennydd Gwladol y DU dros yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig, Hilary Benn, wedi cael cyfarfod â Chomisiynydd Vassiliou yn yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, ac ategwyd y safbwynt hwnnw bryd hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae safbwynt y comisiwn yn ddi-syfl—mae am weld y rheoliad hwn yn cael ei gyflwyno’n orfodol ym mis Ionawr 2010.

2.20 p.m.

Helen Mary Jones: In the many discussions that you have to have with the European Union on farming matters in Wales, does it remain a difficulty that you have to negotiate through the UK Government when it comes to the Council of Ministers? Does that lead to frustrations in your role? Do you agree that we would be able to deal with the needs of Welsh agriculture more effectively in the EU if you were given the seat around the ministerial table that you so richly deserve?

Helen Mary Jones: Yn y trafodaethau niferus y mae’n rhaid ichi eu cael gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ynghylch ffermio yng Nghymru, wrth ystyried Cyngor y Gweinidogion, a yw’n dal yn peri anhawster ei bod yn rhaid ichi negodi drwy Lywodraeth y DU? A yw hynny’n arwain at rwystredigaeth yn eich rôl? A gytunwch y gallasem ddelio ag anghenion amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru yn fwy effeithiol yn yr UE pe rhoddwyd y sedd haeddiannol honno ichi o amgylch bwrdd y gweinidogion?

Elin Jones: You will not be surprised to hear that I would love to have a seat around the Council of Ministers’ table. However, as I am not currently in that position, I see my role as being heavily involved in negotiating the UK position with colleagues from Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, agreeing the UK position for the Secretary of State to articulate on our behalf. Negotiations on the CAP health check, with which I have been involved this year, did not, on the whole, lead to any major difficulties between the four countries, and we were able to reach a compromise position quite easily. However, that will not necessarily always be the case.

Elin Jones: Ni fydd yn syndod ichi glywed y buaswn wrth fy modd yn cael sedd o amgylch bwrdd Cyngor y Gweinidogion. Fodd bynnag, gan nad wyf yn y sefyllfa honno ar hyn o bryd, mae fy rôl, yn fy nhyb i, yn ymwneud yn fawr â negodi safbwyntiau’r DU gyda chyd-Aelodau o’r Alban, Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon, gan gytuno ar safbwyntiau’r DU fel y gall yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol eu mynegi ar ein rhan. Ar y cyfan, nid arweiniodd y cyd-drafod yr wyf wedi bod yn ymwneud ag ef eleni yng nghyswllt archwiliad iechyd y PAC at ddim anawsterau mawr rhwng y pedair gwlad, a llwyddasom i ddod i sefyllfa gyfaddawd yn bur rhwydd. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd hyn yn digwydd o anghenraid bob tro.

Welsh Cheese Production Cynhyrchu Caws yng Nghymru

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Q11 David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh cheese production? OAQ(3)0501(RAF)

C11 David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gynhyrchu caws yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0501(RAF)

Elin Jones: In Wales, we have over 2,000 dairy farmers producing approximately 1.5 billion litres of milk per annum, 80 per cent of which goes into cheese production. Cheeses produced in Wales are among the best, winning awards at prestigious events such as the True Taste Awards and the British Cheese Awards, recently held in Cardiff.

Elin Jones: Yng Nghymru, mae gennym dros 2,000 o ffermwyr llaeth, a’r rheini’n cynhyrchu oddeutu 1.5 biliwn litr o laeth bob blwyddyn. Bydd 80 y cant ohono’n mynd i wneud caws. Mae’r cawsiau a gynhyrchir yng Nghymru ymhlith y gorau, yn ennill gwobrau mewn digwyddiadau mawreddog megis Gwobrau Gwir Flas a Gwobrau Caws Prydain, a gynhaliwyd yn ddiweddar yng Nghaerdydd.

David Melding: I have said this before, but it it is worth repeating: I think that you are a splendid big cheese; I am a mere cheese aficionado. [Laughter.] Cheese producers are often small enterprises and marketing is difficult when you have many producers at the real quality end. The Welsh Assembly Government was right to attract the British Cheese Awards to Cardiff earlier in the autumn. What further ventures along that line will you propose?

David Melding: Yr wyf wedi dweud hyn o’r blaen, ond mae’n werth ei ailadrodd: Yr wyf yn meddwl eich bod yn dipyn o arbenigwr ar gawsiau, a dim ond eu bwyta ydw i. [Chwerthin.]. Yn aml iawn, mentrau bychan yw cynhyrchwyr caws ac mae marchnata yn anodd pan fo gennych lawer o gynhyrchwyr yn cynhyrchu caws o’r ansawdd gorau. Yr oedd yn briodol iawn i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ddenu Gwobrau Caws Prydain i Gaerdydd yn gynharach yn yr hydref. Pa fentrau eraill tebyg i hynny a gynigwch?

I will just remind you of what the judges said about Pont Gar, which was the Welsh cheese of the year:

Fe’ch atgoffaf o beth ddywedodd y beirniaid am Pont Gar, sef caws Cymreig y flwyddyn:

‘a large deep wheel covered with a thick, firm fitting, soft white mould. It has a soft, custard texture and the interior is deliciously smooth and creamy and feels wickedly rich and the garlic and herbs are wonderfully subtle.’

olwyn fawr ddwfn wedi’i gorchuddio mewn mowld gwyn meddal, a hwnnw’n drwchus ac yn gadarn o amgylch y caws. Mae ei ansawdd yn debyg i gwstard ac mae’r tu mewn yn flasus hufennog ac yn llyfn. Mae’n gyfoethog ei flas, ac mae’r garlleg a’r perlysiau’n fendigedig o gynnil.

Do you not want to eat pounds of the stuff? That is the sort of publicity that we need.

Oni fyddech yn hoffi bwyta llwyth ohono? Dyna’r math o gyhoeddusrwydd y mae ei angen arnom.

Elin Jones: Unfortunately, sometimes I do eat pounds of the stuff. On a serious note, Welsh cheeses are among the best in the world: both the smaller artisan cheeses that are sold in places all around the world, including Harrods and other major retailers, and the bulk cheeses produced by some of our larger co-operatives in Wales. We need to ensure that we retain and develop our entire cheese sector, because there is nothing

Elin Jones: Yn anffodus, byddaf weithiau’n bwyta llwyth o’r stwff. Ar nodyn difrifol, mae cawsiau o Gymru ymhlith cawsiau gorau’r byd: y cawsiau bach crefftus a werthir o amgylch y byd, gan gynnwys yn Harrods ac mewn siopau mawr eraill, a’r swmp cawsiau a gynhyrchir gan rai o’n cwmnïau cydweithredol yng Nghymru. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn cynnal ac yn datblygu ein sector caws yn ei gyfanrwydd,

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better than a bit of cheese and bread. oherwydd nid oes dim yn fwy blasus nag ychydig o gaws a bara.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a ThaiQuestions for the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y 12 Mis Nesaf Priorities for the Next 12 Months

Q1 Paul Davies: Will the Minister outline her priorities for the next 12 months? OAQ(3)0592(ESH)

C1 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y 12 mis nesaf? OAQ(3)0592(ESH)

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): My priorities for the next 12 months are to deliver the ‘One Wales’ commitments that fall to my portfolio and specifically to confirm our new approach to sustainable development, to take action to address climate change, waste, sustainable energy generation and use, and access to the coast and countryside.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Fy mlaenoriaethau ar gyfer y 12 mis nesaf yw cyflawni’r ymrwymiadau yn nogfen ‘Cymru’n Un’ sy’n rhan o fy mhortffolio. Yn benodol, mae hyn yn golygu cadarnhau ein dull newydd o gyflawni datblygu cynaliadwy, cymryd camau i ymdrin â’r newid yn yr hinsawdd, gwastraff, cynhyrchu a defnyddio ynni cynaliadwy, a mynediad i’r arfordir a chefn gwlad.

Paul Davies: I understand that creating green jobs is also central to the Assembly Government’s sustainability strategy, and recycling initiatives also create meaningful employment. Some recycling initiatives need substantial amounts of energy to operate machinery to deal with recycled material. In some cases, the existing power source is unable to supply adequate energy to operate the machinery. A recycling company in my constituency, which I understand the Minister has already visited, has experienced this problem. It has been told by the utility company that it will cost a vast sum of money to provide the additional energy required. What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to ensure that companies such as the one in my constituency are able to access a relatively affordable power supply?

Paul Davies: Deallaf fod creu swyddi gwyrdd hefyd yn ganolog i strategaeth cynaliadwyedd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, ac mae cynlluniau ailgylchu hefyd yn creu cyflogaeth ystyrlon. Mae ar rai cynlluniau ailgylchu angen llawer o ynni i weithio peiriannau i ymdrin â deunydd a ailgylchir. Mewn rhai achosion, nid yw’r ffynhonnell bŵer bresennol yn gallu cyflenwi digon o ynni i weithio’r peiriannau. Mae cwmni ailgylchu yn fy etholaeth, a deallaf fod y Gweinidog eisoes wedi ymweld ag ef, wedi cael y broblem hon. Mae’r cwmni cyfleustodau wedi dweud wrtho y bydd yn costio llawer iawn o arian i gyflenwi’r ynni ychwanegol y mae ei angen arno. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n ei wneud i sicrhau y gall cwmnïau megis yr un yn fy etholaeth gael gafael ar gyflenwad pŵer eithaf fforddiadwy?

Jane Davidson: The green jobs strategy, which I jointly launched with the Deputy First Minister, is a key ‘One Wales’ commitment. We were pleased to launch the strategy alongside the sustainable development scheme, so that is within the organising principle of sustainable development.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r strategaeth swyddi gwyrdd, a lansiais ar y cyd â’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, yn un o brif ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’. Yr oedd yn bleser gennym lansio strategaeth ochr yn ochr â’r cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy, felly mae hynny o fewn yr egwyddor bennaf o ddatblygu cynaliadwy.

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If you write to me about the particular circumstances of the case that you raised, I would be happy to look into it. Certainly, we are already engaged in robust discussions with companies and the National Grid about issues of power generation and connectivity.

Os ysgrifennwch ataf ynghylch amgylchiadau penodol yr achos a godwyd gennych, byddwn yn fodlon edrych arno. Yn sicr, yr ydym eisoes yn rhan o drafodaethau brwd â chwmnïau a’r Grid Cenedlaethol ynghylch materion yn ymwneud â chynhyrchu pŵer a chysylltedd.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yn eich rhaglen blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y 12 mis nesaf, fe nodwch yr angen i ddatblygu ynni adnewyddadwy. A wnewch gadarnhau bod pob opsiwn yn cael ei hystyried o ran sicrhau bod cyfleoedd i greu ynni’n adnewyddadwy? A wnewch hefyd gadarnhau bod Llywodraeth Cymru’n parhau i wrthwynebu unrhyw fwriad i leoli atomfa newydd yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: In your programme of priorities for the next 12 months, you included the need to develop renewable energy. Will you confirm that all options are being considered in terms of opportunities to create renewable energy? Will you also confirm that the Government of Wales opposes any plan to locate a new nuclear generating plant in Wales?

Jane Davidson: We laid out our commitments on renewable energy in the renewable energy route-map earlier in the year. I will be producing a marine strategic action plan to look at particular targets in marine-based renewable energy production, which offers some of the greatest opportunities for us. My intention is to do that early next year.

Jane Davidson: Cyflwynasom ein hymrwymiadau o ran ynni adnewyddadwy yn y trywydd ynni adnewyddadwy yn gynharach eleni. Byddaf yn cynhyrchu cynllun gweithredu strategol morol i edrych ar dargedau penodol yng nghyd-destun cynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy yn y môr, sy’n cynnig rhai o’r cyfleoedd mwyaf inni. Fy mwriad yw gwneud hynny’n fuan yn y flwyddyn nesaf.

With regard to new nuclear power, the Government of Wales has always said that, as we have some £6.5 billion worth of opportunities in renewable energy, that is where our priority lies. We therefore do not see the need for a new nuclear power plant in Wales alongside that major priority for renewable energy.

O ran ynni niwclear, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dweud erioed, gan fod gennym werth oddeutu £6.5 biliwn o gyfleoedd ym maes ynni adnewyddadwy, mai yn y fan honno y mae ein blaenoriaeth. Felly, nid ydym yn gweld yr angen am bwerdy niwclear newydd yng Nghymru ochr yn ochr â’r flaenoriaeth fawr honno ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy.

Mick Bates: I note your priorities, and I am sure that they would receive universal support. However, priorities are fine, provided the cash is there to implement them. I draw your attention to your statement to the Sustainability Committee about three bids for funding from the strategic capital investment fund. The first of those bids was to alleviate fuel poverty by using low-carbon building programme funds. You said that you could well hear after a meeting on 24 November whether the bid was successful or not. Is it possible for you to state on the record today whether it was successful or not? Also, if the bid was unsuccessful, where will you find the

Mick Bates: Nodaf eich blaenoriaethau, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y caent gefnogaeth gyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, mae blaenoriaethau’n iawn, cyn belled â bod arian ar gael i’w gwireddu. Tynnaf eich sylw at eich datganiad i’r Pwyllgor Cynaliadwyedd am dri chais am gyllid gan y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol. Yr oedd y cais cyntaf o blith y rheini’n ymwneud â lliniaru tlodi tanwydd drwy ddefnyddio cronfeydd rhaglenni adeiladu carbon isel. Dywedasoch y byddech yn bur sicr o gael clywed ar ôl cyfarfod 24 Tachwedd a oedd y cais yn llwyddiannus ai peidio. A yw’n bosibl ichi ddweud ar goedd heddiw a oedd yn

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capital to implement that priority to make homes more energy efficient?

llwyddiannus ai peidio? Hefyd, os nad oedd y cais yn llwyddiannus, o lle y dewch o hyd i’r cyfalaf i roi’r flaenoriaeth honno ar waith er mwyn gwneud cartrefi’n fwy effeithlon?

Jane Davidson: The strategic capital investment board, which is made up of independent advisers to the Assembly Government, met on Monday. Its considerations will be brought to Cabinet in due course, and a public announcement will be made on SCIB proposals after that.

Jane Davidson: Cyfarfu’r bwrdd buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, sy’n cynnwys cynghorwyr annibynnol i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, ddydd Llun. Bydd ei ystyriaethau’n cael eu dwyn gerbron y Cabinet mewn da bryd, a gwneir cyhoeddiad i’r cyhoedd ar gynigion y bwrdd buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol ar ôl hynny.

Mick Bates: I note that you did not answer the second part of my question about the contingency arrangements should the bid prove unsuccessful. In good budgetary planning, one would assume that you have some plan. I look forward to the announcement on the bid to the strategic capital investment fund.

Mick Bates: Nodaf na wnaethoch ateb ail ran fy nghwestiwn ynghylch trefniadau wrth gefn pe na byddai’r cais yn llwyddiannus. Mewn enghreifftiau da o gynllunio cyllidebol, byddai rhywun yn tybio bod gennych ryw gynllun. Edrychaf ymlaen at y cyhoeddiad ar y cais a wnaethpwyd i’r bwrdd buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol.

Taking things a step further, we heard from Westminster this week that a considerable amount of money is to come to Wales to help achieve public infrastructural works. Have you made any bids for money from this source, or have you discussed it with the Cabinet? Within your priorities, there are many urgent issues, not least of which is to alleviate fuel poverty. Currently, some 340,000 households in Wales are in fuel poverty.

A mynd â phethau gam ymhellach, clywsom gan San Steffan yr wythnos hon y bydd swm sylweddol o arian yn dod i Gymru i helpu i gyflawni gwaith seilwaith cyhoeddus. A ydych wedi gwneud unrhyw gais am arian o’r ffynhonnell hon, neu a ydych wedi’i drafod gyda’r Cabinet? Yn ein blaenoriaethau, ceir nifer o faterion brys, ac mae lliniaru tlodi tanwydd yn un o’r rhai pwysicaf. Ar hyn o bryd, mae 340,000 o aelwydydd yn dioddef tlodi tanwydd yng Nghymru.

Jane Davidson: As I said in committee and, regularly, in Plenary since energy prices started to rise, fuel poverty is a major priority for the Assembly Government, which is why we will be producing our national energy and efficiency savings plan in the new year.

Jane Davidson: Fel y dywedais yn y pwyllgor, ac yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yn rheolaidd, ers i brisiau ynni ddechrau codi, mae tlodi tanwydd yn flaenoriaeth o bwys i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a dyma pam y byddwn yn cynhyrchu ein cynllun cenedlaethol ar gyfer effeithlonrwydd ac arbedion ynni yn y flwyddyn newydd.

2.30 p.m.

Although most of the factors that contribute to fuel poverty are not in the control of the Assembly Government, we are looking to exercise our influence, and looking at how we can make sure that our investment gets the best return, alongside that of the energy companies. I am meeting representatives of all the energy companies to discuss this matter is in the round on 2 December. I will continue to prioritise fuel priority and energy

Er nad yw’r rhan fwyaf o’r ffactorau sy’n cyfrannu at dlodi tanwydd o dan reolaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yr ydym yn ceisio defnyddio ein dylanwad, ac edrych ar sut y gallwn wneud yn siŵr fod ein buddsoddiad yn rhoi’r enillion gorau, ochr yn ochr â buddsoddiad y cwmnïau ynni. Yr wyf yn cwrdd â chynrychiolwyr yr holl gwmnïau ynni i drafod y mater hwn yn ei gyfanrwydd ar 2 Rhagfyr. Byddaf yn parhau i

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efficiency, as the economic summit has done with the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress. So, the Government is looking at all the ways to maximise energy efficiency and to support the fuel poverty agenda, but I am afraid that you will have to curb your impatience over the outcomes and wait to hear about it in the normal course of business.

flaenoriaethu tlodi tanwydd ac effeithlonrwydd ynni, fel y mae’r uwchgynhadledd economaidd wedi’i wneud gyda Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain a Chyngres yr Undebau Llafur. Felly, mae’r Llywodraeth yn edrych ar bob ffordd o gynyddu effeithlonrwydd ynni i’r eithaf ac i gefnogi’r agenda tlodi tanwydd, ond mae arnaf ofn y bydd yn rhaid ichi fod yn fwy amyneddgar ynglŷn â’r canlyniadau a disgwyl i glywed am hynny yn ôl y drefn arferol.

Affordable Housing Tai Fforddiadwy

Q2 Lesley Griffiths: Will the Minister make a statement about affordable housing in Wrexham? OAQ(3)0621(ESH)

C2 Lesley Griffiths: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am dai fforddiadwy yn Wrecsam? OAQ(3)0621(ESH)

The Deputy Minister for Housing (Jocelyn Davies): ‘One Wales’ gives a firm commitment to affordable housing in Wales. Wrexham has improved its allocation of the social housing grant recently, with an investment target amounting to £2.31 million for 2009-10. In addition, a social housing grant of £4.4 million was approved for Wrexham’s first ever extra care scheme.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Dai (Jocelyn Davies): Mae ‘Cymru’n Un’ yn ymrwymo’n bendant i dai fforddiadwy yng Nghymru. Mae Wrecsam wedi gwella ei ddyrniad grant tai cymdeithasol yn ddiweddar, gyda tharged buddsoddi o £2.31 miliwn ar gyfer 2009-10. Yn ogystal, cymeradwywyd grant tai cymdeithasol o £4.4 miliwn ar gyfer cynllun gofal ychwanegol cyntaf erioed Wrecsam.

Lesley Griffiths: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. The Welsh Assembly Government recently announced that precisely because of what is happening in the wider economy, it will be working even closer with housing associations and lenders to press on with its plans to increase the number of affordable houses available to 6,500 by 2011. Through discussions with your ministerial colleagues and the Welsh Local Government Association, will you do everything in your power to ensure that sufficient land, whether in Welsh Assembly Government or local government ownership, is made available to get homes built in Wales, and quickly?

Lesley Griffiths: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad hynny’n ddiweddar yn union oherwydd yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn yr economi ehangach; bydd yn gweithio’n agosach fyth gyda chymdeithasau tai a benthycwyr i brysuro ymlaen â’i chynlluniau i gynyddu nifer y tai fforddiadwy sydd ar gael i 6,500 erbyn 2011. Drwy drafodaethau gyda’ch cyd-Weinidogion a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, a wnewch chi bopeth yn eich gallu i sicrhau bod digon o dir, boed hwnnw yn eiddo i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru neu lywodraeth leol, yn cael ei ddarparu fel y bydd cartrefi’n cael eu codi yng Nghymru, a hynny’n gyflym?

Jocelyn Davies: You will know that the Assembly Government has a land disposal protocol, which has recently been strengthened, and so we are looking across the land holdings to see whether any land that is surplus to requirements and suitable for affordable housing can be released. There are eight priority sites under consideration, and we are working with local authorities and

Jocelyn Davies: Byddwch yn gwybod bod gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad brotocol gwaredu tir, sydd wedi cael ei gryfhau yn ddiweddar, ac felly yr ydym yn edrych ar draws y daliadau tir i weld a oes modd rhyddhau unrhyw dir nad oes ei angen ac sy’n addas ar gyfer tai fforddiadwy. Mae wyth safle blaenoriaeth yn cael eu hystyried, ac yr ydym yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau

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housing associations towards transferring that land possibly before the end of the financial year. We hope that that will encourage local authorities and other public bodies to consider using their surplus land for the purposes of building affordable housing.

lleol a chymdeithasau tai tuag at drosglwyddo tir, cyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol o bosibl. Gobeithiwn y bydd hynny’n annog awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill i ystyried defnyddio’r tir sydd ganddynt hwy dros ben i’r diben o godi tai fforddiadwy

Mark Isherwood: As you will know, Deputy Minister, Wrexham has identified a likely shortfall of 1,078 affordable houses in its stock by 2021. Given that each local authority submits its affordable housing delivery plan to you, it is likely that similar gaps and shortages will be identified after a decade in which the supply of new and affordable housing has been cut by 75 per cent. To close that gap, how would you respond to proposals for local authorities to use arm’s-length companies to develop new affordable housing in their counties, although not to achieve the Welsh housing quality standard, which you concluded would not be cost-effective in Wales?

Mark Isherwood: Fel y byddwch yn gwybod, Ddirprwy Weinidog, mae Wrecsam wedi nodi diffyg o 1,078 o dai fforddiadwy yn ei stoc erbyn 2021. Ac ystyried bod pob awdurdod lleol yn cyflwyno ei gynllun cyflenwi tai fforddiadwy i chi, mae’n debygol y bydd bylchau a diffygion tebyg yn cael eu nodi ar ôl degawd lle mae’r cyflenwad o dai newydd a thai fforddiadwy wedi cael ei dorri 75 y cant. I gau’r bwlch hwnnw, sut byddech chi’n ymateb i gynigion i awdurdodau lleol ddefnyddio cwmnïau hyd braich i ddatblygu tai fforddiadwy newydd yn eu siroedd, er nid i gyrraedd safon ansawdd tai Cymru, y daethoch i’r casgliad na fyddai’n gost-effeithiol yng Nghymru?

Jocelyn Davies: You are quite right that, in 2006, when Wrexham had its housing needs assessment carried out, a shortfall of 2,205 houses was envisaged by 2021. From the figures that you quoted, there has been some closure of that gap, but there is an overwhelming need for two-bedroomed properties in Wrexham. I would be happy to discuss with local government any practical measures that it would consider appropriate to secure more affordable housing for communities.

Jocelyn Davies: Yr ydych yn hollol iawn fod Wrecsam, yn 2006, pan gyflawnwyd ei asesiad anghenion tai, yn rhagweld diffyg o 2,205 o dai erbyn 2021. O’r ffigurau yr ydych wedi’u dyfynnu, mae’r bwlch hwnnw wedi cau rhywfaint, ond mae angen enfawr am dai dwy lofft yn Wrecsam. Byddwn yn hapus i drafod gyda llywodraeth leol unrhyw fesurau ymarferol y byddai’n eu hystyried yn briodol er mwyn sicrhau rhagor o dai fforddiadwy i gymunedau.

Janet Ryder: Deputy Minister, as has already been highlighted, Wrexham is having a problem meeting the demand for affordable housing, mainly due to previous councils just not building enough. Do you welcome the stance that Plaid Cymru councillors in Wrexham County Borough Council are taking, in requesting that 50 per cent of future housing developments providing affordable housing be included in the forthcoming local development plan? When you are looking at land that can be made available to Wrexham, will you also look at the Bridge street site, which would prove to be profitable and much needed?

Janet Ryder: Ddirprwy Weinidog, fel yr amlygwyd eisoes, mae Wrecsam yn cael problem i ateb y galw am dai fforddiadwy, yn bennaf am na wnaeth y cynghorau blaenorol adeiladu digon. A ydych yn croesawu’r safiad y mae cynghorwyr Plaid Cymru ar Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam yn ei gymryd, yn gofyn am gynnwys yn y cynllun datblygu lleol sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu y bydd 50 y cant o ddatblygiadau tai’r dyfodol yn darparu tai fforddiadwy? Pan fyddwch yn edrych ar y tir y gellir ei ddarparu yn Wrecsam, a wnewch chi hefyd edrych ar y safle yn Stryd y Bont, a fyddai’n broffidiol ac y mae mawr ei angen?

Jocelyn Davies: Previously in Wrexham, a new development had to have more than 30

Jocelyn Davies: Cyn hyn yn Wrecsam, yr oedd yn rhaid i ddatblygiad newydd fod â

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dwellings before it was required to include affordable housing, so I suppose that moving to a percentage is a step forward. Thank you for giving me advance notice that you would mention the specific site at Bridge street, as I have asked officials to look into the matter. I am told that, when planning permission was renewed earlier this year, a new condition was included, insisting on a percentage of affordable housing being included in any development on that site.

mwy na 30 o anheddau cyn yr oedd gofyn iddo gynnwys tai fforddiadwy, felly mae’n debyg fod symud i ganran yn gam ymlaen. Diolch ichi am roi rhybudd imi ymlaen llaw y byddech yn crybwyll y safle penodol yn Stryd y Bont, gan fy mod wedi gofyn i’r swyddogion ymchwilio i’r mater. Dywedir wrthyf, pan adnewyddwyd y caniatâd cynllunio yn gynharach eleni, fod amod newydd wedi cael ei gynnwys, yn mynnu bod canran o dai fforddiadwy yn cael eu cynnwys mewn unrhyw ddatblygiad ar y safle hwnnw.

Recycling Ailgylchu

Q3 Leanne Wood: Will the Minister give an update on recycling levels across Wales? OAQ(3)0617(ESH)

C3 Leanne Wood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am lefelau ailgylchu ledled Cymru? OAQ(3)0617(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Local authorities in Wales exceeded the 25 per cent recycling target in 2006-07 by almost 3 per cent. The provisional first-quarter data for 2008-09 show recycling at 36 per cent, and demonstrate the commitment of local authorities to hit 40 per cent in 2009-10. Business in Wales is recycling nearly two thirds of its waste.

Jane Davidson: Yn ystod 2006-07, cyrhaeddodd awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru bron i 3 y cant uwchlaw’r targed ailgylchu o 25 y cant. Mae data dros dro ar gyfer chwarter cyntaf 2008-09 yn dangos bod 36 y cant o wastraff yn cael ei ailgylchu, ac yn dangos ymrwymiad awdurdodau lleol i gyrraedd 40 y cant yn 2009-10. Mae busnesau yng Nghymru yn ailgylchu dwy ran o dair, bron, o’u gwastraff.

Leanne Wood: Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you are aware, recycled rubbish collected from commercial companies and individuals can end up in landfill sites if it is considered to be contaminated. Will you comment on that practice?

Leanne Wood: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Fel y byddwch yn gwybod, mae sbwriel wedi’i ailgylchu sy’n cael ei gasglu oddi wrth gwmnïau masnachol ac unigolion yn gallu mynd i safleoedd tirlenwi yn y pen draw os ystyrir ei fod wedi’i halogi. A gynigiwch chi sylwadau ar yr arfer hwnnw?

Secondly, an opinion poll published by the BBC today finds that 79 per cent of women and 70 per cent of men believe that they should be rewarded financially if they generate less landfill waste and recycle more. What discussions has the One Wales Government had regarding pay-as-you-throw pilot schemes?

Yn ail, mae pôl piniwn a gyhoeddwyd gan y BBC heddiw yn canfod bod 79 y cant o fenywod a 70 y cant o ddynion yn credu y dylent gael eu gwobrwyo’n ariannol os ydynt yn cynhyrchu llai o wastraff tirlenwi ac yn ailgylchu mwy. Pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un wedi’u cael ynglŷn â chynlluniau peilot talu wrth daflu?

Jane Davidson: You are right to say that mixed waste from commercial companies is often sent to landfill. If those materials arrive in the same skip, it is expensive and energy-intensive to ‘un-sort’ the waste into useable materials. The Wales waste strategy seeks the best way of sustainably resolving this

Jane Davidson: Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod gwastraff cymysg o gwmnïau masnachol yn aml yn cael ei anfon i safleoedd tirlenwi. Os yw’r defnyddiau hynny’n cyrraedd yn yr un sgip, mae’n gostus ac yn defnyddio llawer o ynni i ddidoli’r gwastraff yn ddefnyddiau y mae modd eu defnyddio. Mae strategaeth

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problem, not least by looking at having a 70 per cent target for the industrial and commercial sector similar to the target that we aim to set for the municipal sector.

wastraff Cymru yn ceisio’r ffordd orau o ddatrys y broblem hon yn gynaliadwy, i raddau drwy ystyried cael targed o 70 y cant i’r sector diwydiannol a masnachol yn debyg i’r targed yr ydym yn anelu ato ar gyfer y sector trefol.

We will be considering issues of rewards in next year’s consultation on ‘Wise About Waste’ part 2.

Byddwn yn ystyried materion yn ymwneud â gwobrwyo yn yr ymgynghoriad y flwyddyn nesaf ynglŷn ag ‘Yn Gall gyda Gwastraff’ rhan 2.

Jonathan Morgan: Minister, you have already said that local authorities are working towards meeting that 40 per cent target and are looking at ways to improve the rate of recycling municipal waste. I have been informed that many local authorities in some mainland European countries are already recycling two thirds of their waste. What lessons can we learn from what is happening on the continent? Perhaps we could import some ideas here to see an improvement in our recycling rates.

Jonathan Morgan: Weinidog, yr ydych eisoes wedi dweud bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn gweithio at gyrraedd y targed hwnnw o 40 y cant a’u bod yn ystyried ffyrdd o wella’r gyfradd ailgylchu gwastraff trefol. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod llawer o awdurdodau lleol mewn rhai gwledydd ar dir mawr Ewrop eisoes yn ailgylchu dwy ran o dair o’u gwastraff. Pa wersi allwn ni eu dysgu o’r hyn sy’n digwydd ar y cyfandir? Efallai y gallem fewnforio rhai syniadau yma er mwyn gweld gwelliant yn ein cyfraddau ailgylchu.

Jane Davidson: We are doing exactly that. Among the main lessons from the continent on how waste is collected are: having small community incineration plants; ensuring anaerobic digestion, where waste can be recycled and transformed into energy; and sorting recyclable waste at the kerbside. We have commissioned separate work to look at the different outcomes of kerbside sorting as opposed to the co-mingled mechanism. We have to be clear on whether one method is substantially better than another, so I have commissioned further independent research on that to see whether we can reach a definitive view. My broad suggestion now, particularly when processors are starting to focus much more on the quality of the recycled material, is that material has a greater chance of going to market if it is of high quality. Indeed, the higher the quality, the greater its chance of going to market.

Jane Davidson: Yr ydym yn gwneud yn union hynny. Ymysg y prif wersi o’r cyfandir o ran sut y caiff gwastraff ei gasglu mae: cael llosgyddion cymunedol bach; sicrhau treulio anaerobig, lle gellir ailgylchu gwastraff a’i drawsnewid yn ynni; a didoli gwastraff ailgylchadwy wrth ymyl y palmant. Yr ydym wedi comisiynu gwaith ar wahân i edrych ar ganlyniadau gwahanol didoli wrth ymyl y palmant o’i gyferbynnu â’r mecanwaith cydgymysgu. Rhaid inni ddeall yn glir a oes un dull yn sylweddol well na’r llall, felly yr wyf wedi comisiynu ymchwil annibynnol pellach i hynny i weld a allwn gyrraedd barn ddiffiniol. Fy awgrym bras ar hyn o bryd, yn enwedig gan fod proseswyr yn dechrau canolbwyntio llawer mwy ar ansawdd defnydd wedi’i ailgylchu, yw bod gan ddefnydd fwy o siawns o fynd i’r farchnad os yw o ansawdd uchel. Yn wir, gorau oll yw’r ansawdd, y mwyaf yw ei siawns o fynd i’r farchnad.

Jenny Randerson: You just talked about small-scale projects, but I am sure that you are aware that several local authorities in Wales are looking at combining resources to build large-scale waste recycling plant. What is your policy on those large-scale plants proposed? Are you prepared in principle to

Jenny Randerson: Yr ydych newydd sôn am brosiectau ar raddfa fach, ond yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol fod nifer o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru yn ystyried cyfuno adnoddau i adeiladu gwaith ailgylchu gwastraff ar raddfa fawr. Beth yw eich polisi o ran y gweithfeydd hynny ar raddfa fawr

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offer financial support to local authorities, which are considering taking the larger scale approach? Would any such financial support come from your own budget or from the strategic capital investment fund if you were to make a successful bid?

sy’n cael eu hawgrymu? A ydych yn barod mewn egwyddor i gynnig cymorth ariannol i awdurdodau lleol, sy’n ystyried gweithredu ar raddfa fawr? A fyddai unrhyw gymorth ariannol o’r fath yn dod o’ch cyllideb chi ynteu o’r gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol petaech yn gwneud cais llwyddiannus?

Jane Davidson: The collaborative approach taken by local authorities to ensure that they can deliver the target of recycling 40 per cent of municipal waste by 2009-10 and 70 per cent by 2025, as well as in fulfilling the Beecham principles, means that those discussions have been ongoing for a number of years, and they are in accordance with our regional waste management plan proposals that were led by local authorities. We very much wanted to see those local authorities bring forward regional proposals.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r dull cydweithrediadol a gymerwyd gan awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau y gallant gyrraedd y targed o ailgylchu 40 y cant o wastraff trefol erbyn 2009-10 a 70 y cant erbyn 2025, yn ogystal â gwireddu egwyddorion Beecham, yn golygu bod y trafodaethau hynny wedi bod ar y gweill ers nifer o flynyddoedd, a’u bod yn unol â’n cynigion o dan y cynllun rheoli gwastraff rhanbarthol a arweiniwyd gan awdurdodau lleol. Yr oeddem yn awyddus iawn i weld yr awdurdodau lleol hynny yn dod â chynigion rhanbarthol gerbron.

2.40 p.m.

The issues about the level of the support that will be given in the context of delivery will depend on the appropriate financial and procurement arguments stacking up. We are in detailed discussions on those at the moment.

Bydd y materion ynglŷn â lefel y cymorth a roddir yn nghyd-destun cyflenwi yn ddibynnol ar i’r dadleuon ariannol a chaffael priodol wneud synnwyr. Yr ydym yn cynnal trafodaethau manwl ynglŷn â’r rheini ar hyn o bryd.

New Affordable Homes Cartrefi Fforddiadwy Newydd

Q4 Eleanor Burnham: What evaluation has the Minister made of the likelihood of the Welsh Assembly Government’s meeting its target of 6,500 new affordable homes by 2011? OAQ(3)0625(ESH)

C4 Eleanor Burnham: Pa werthusiad y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud o debygolrwydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cyrraedd ei tharged o 6,500 o gartrefi fforddiadwy newydd erbyn 2011? OAQ(3)0625(ESH)

Jocelyn Davies: We remain committed to providing an extra 6,500 affordable homes over the four-year term of the third Assembly. There are clearly great difficulties in obtaining properties through the planning system at present, so we are looking at the targeted purchase of unsold private sector houses and sites to boost supply, along with other measures.

Jocelyn Davies: Yr ydym yn dal i ymrwymo i ddarparu 6,500 o dai fforddiadwy ychwanegol dros dymor pedair blynedd y trydydd Cynulliad. Yn sicr, mae anawsterau mawr o ran sicrhau eiddo drwy’r gyfundrefn gynllunio ar hyn o bryd, felly yr ydym, ochr yn ochr â mesurau eraill, yn ystyried prynu tai a safleoedd sector preifat nas gwerthwyd, gan dargedu hynny, er mwyn hybu’r cyflenwad.

Eleanor Burnham: I realise that this is a long-term and historical problem that cannot be laid at the door of anyone in particular. It is a collective mess, in many respects, for so

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod hon yn broblem hanesyddol, tymor hir, na ellir ei beio ar unrhyw un yn arbennig. Mae’n llanastr drwyddi draw, mewn llawer

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many people, and we are talking about families who are waiting to be housed. First, could you define ‘affordable housing’, because many people watching these proceedings—and many people do—might be confused as to what is meant by it? In the light of the current economic crisis and Cardiff Business School’s recent report, how do you honestly believe that your ambitious target of 6,500 new affordable homes will be achieved by 2011? How exactly will we achieve that?

ffordd, i gynifer o bobl, ac yr ydym yn siarad am bobl sy’n aros i gael eu cartrefu. Yn gyntaf, a allech ddiffinio ‘tai fforddiadwy’, oherwydd efallai fod llawer o bobl sy’n gwylio’r trafodion hyn—ac mae llawer o bobl yn gwneud hynny—yn ddryslyd ynglŷn â’r hyn y mae’n ei olygu? Yng ngoleuni’r argyfwng economaidd presennol a’r adroddiad gan Ysgol Fusnes Caerdydd yn ddiweddar, sut mewn difrif ydych chi’n credu y caiff eich targed uchelgeisiol o 6,500 o dai fforddiadwy newydd ei wireddu erbyn 2011? Sut yn union y gwnawn ni wireddu hynny?

Jocelyn Davies: The definition of affordability is laid out and we will send you the guidance on that. There is an issue of local interpretation, however. I know that, as a group, you are disappointed that we have managed to be on target up until now, according to Cardiff Business School’s Welsh Economy Research Unit report. You started by claiming that 6,500 was not enough, and then you say that it is too ambitious and we will not be able to do it. However, we are sticking with the target. As you rightly said, it is important that we stick to it. The planning system will not provide us with the number of affordable homes that we would like, but I can assure you that the downturn in the market will not last forever, and it is important that local authorities use this time to negotiate well for future developments. We are looking at other matters, and, as you know, I have made a bid for extra funding. We are looking at releasing publicly owned land so that grant aid can go further, and I am hopeful that we will be able to meet that target.

Jocelyn Davies: Mae’r diffiniad o fforddioldeb wedi cael ei bennu ac anfonwn arweiniad ar hynny atoch. Mae mater o ddehongli lleol, fodd bynnag. Gwn eich bod, fel grŵp, yn siomedig ein bod wedi llwyddo i gyrraedd y targed hyd yma, yn ôl adroddiad Uned Ymchwil Economi Cymru Ysgol Fusnes Caerdydd. Dechreuasoch drwy honni nad oedd 6,500 yn ddigon, ac yna dywedwch ei fod yn rhy uchelgeisiol ac na allwn ei gyflawni. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn cadw at y targed. Fel y dywedasoch yn hollol gywir, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cadw ato. Ni fydd y gyfundrefn gynllunio yn rhoi inni nifer y tai fforddiadwy y byddem yn eu dymuno, ond gallaf eich sicrhau na wnaiff y dirywiad yn y farchnad bara am byth, ac mae’n bwysig fod awdurdodau lleol yn defnyddio’r amser hwn i negodi’n dda ynglŷn â datblygiadau’r dyfodol. Yr ydym yn edrych ar faterion eraill, ac, fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf wedi gwneud cais am gyllid ychwanegol. Yr ydym yn ystyried rhyddhau tir sydd mewn perchenogaeth gyhoeddus fel y gall cymorth grant fynd ymhellach, ac yr wyf yn obeithio y gallwn gyrraedd y targed hwnnw.

Bethan Jenkins: Work on affordable housing, in response to the Essex report, has identified surplus land across the Assembly Government estate, including in the health service, offering the potential to support an increase in the development of affordable homes. Are there any immediate plans to use land available for the purpose of reaching the Government’s affordable housing target, which would also act as a stimulus to the construction industry?

Bethan Jenkins: Mae gwaith ar dai fforddiadwy, mewn ymateb i adroddiad Essex, wedi nodi tir dros ben ar draws ystâd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yn cynnwys y gwasanaeth iechyd, sy’n cynnig potensial i gefnogi cynnydd yn y tai fforddiadwy sy’n cael eu datblygu. A oes unrhyw gynlluniau diymdroi i ddefnyddio’r tir sydd ar gael i’r diben o gyrraedd targed tai fforddiadwy’r Llywodraeth, a fyddai’n gweithredu hefyd fel ysgogiad i’r diwydiant adeiladu?

Jocelyn Davies: As I mentioned, we are looking across our land holdings for sites that

Jocelyn Davies: Fel y crybwyllais, yr ydym yn edrych ar draws ein daliadau tir am

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are surplus to requirement that could be used for affordable housing. We are encouraging other public sector bodies to do the same, such as the Forestry Commission, Welsh Health Estates, NHS trust estates, ambulance trusts, and other Assembly Government-sponsored bodies. I know that local authorities are also looking to release land for affordable housing because grant aid could then go much further. Even if land were identified today, it would not be available to build on immediately, so it is not an immediate hit. If we can also look at those properties that have been built but cannot be sold, I am sure that the cash flow problems of private developers could be solved, and we would gain extra houses.

safleoedd nad oes eu hangen, y gellir eu defnyddio ar gyfer tai fforddiadwy. Yr ydym yn annog cyrff sector cyhoeddus eraill, megis y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth, Ystadau Iechyd Cymru, ystadau ymddiriedolaethau GIG, ymddiriedolaethau ambiwlans, a chyrff eraill a noddir gan y Cynulliad i wneud yr un fath. Gwn fod awdurdodau lleol hefyd yn gobeithio rhyddhau tir ar gyfer tai fforddiadwy oherwydd gallai’r cymorth grant fynd ymhellach wedyn. Hyd yn oed pe câi tir ei ddynodi heddiw, ni fyddai ar gael i adeiladu arno’n syth, felly ni fyddai’n rhoi atebion inni ar unwaith. Os gallwn ni edrych hefyd ar yr unedau hynny sydd wedi cael eu codi ond na ellir eu gwerthu, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai modd datrys problemau llif arian datblygwyr preifat, a byddem ni’n cael tai ychwanegol.

The Presiding Officer: I call Nick Ramsay. I see that he does not wish to speak. Therefore, I call Alun Davies.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf ar Nick Ramsay. Gwelaf nad yw am siarad. Felly, galwaf ar Alun Davies.

Alun Davies rose— Alun Davies a gododd—

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): I think that it is my turn first, actually.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Credaf mai fy nhro i yw hi yn gyntaf, a dweud y gwir.

The Presiding Officer: I do not have you on my list here. Never mind. I call the leader of the opposition.

Y Llywydd: Nid ydych chi ar fy rhestr yma. Na phoener. Galwaf ar arweinydd yr wrthblaid.

Nick Bourne: I am grateful for the build-up, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Nick Bourne: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyflwyniad, Lywydd. [Chwerthin.]

Deputy Minister, I think that we will all be relieved to hear that you have put in a bid to the Strategic Capital Investment Board for extra funding. That is very good news. I do not think that the figure is ambitious, particularly in the present circumstances.

Ddirprwy Weinidog, credaf y bydd yn rhyddhad i bawb ohonom glywed eich bod wedi gwneud cais i’r Bwrdd Buddsoddi Cyfalaf Strategol am gyllid ychwanegol. Mae hynny’n newyddion da iawn. Ni chredaf fod y ffigur yn uchelgeisiol, yn enwedig o dan yr amgylchiadau presennol.

I know that you are concerned, as we all are, about the repossessions that are happening, the job losses that are leading to negative equity problems, and the number of people who are going to need affordable homes, which is far greater than was the case when the ‘One Wales’ document was drawn up. How much extra funding has she requested, and what is she proposing to do with it if that bid is successful?

Gwn eich bod, fel pob un ohonom, yn bryderus ynglŷn â’r adfeddiannu sy’n digwydd, y colli swyddi sy’n arwain at broblemau ecwiti negatif, a nifer y bobl y bydd arnynt angen cartrefi fforddiadwy, sy’n llawer mwy na phan luniwyd y ddogfen ‘Cymru’n Un’. Faint o arian ychwanegol y mae wedi gofyn amdano, a beth y mae’n bwriadu ei wneud gydag ef os bydd y cais hwnnw’n llwyddiannus?

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Jocelyn Davies: One of the things that we are considering is bringing forward money from the social housing grant programme. If we can bring spending forward, we will be able to stimulate development now. I have made a bid for extra funding, which has been considered. You say that the target is not ambitious enough, but it is worth comparing the level of social housing grant that was being allocated in 2004, which was £59 million, with the level allocated now, which is £107 million. I think that that demonstrates that this has increasingly been a priority for the Assembly Government. I assure you that any extra resources that we are able to obtain will be spent well, in very close co-operation with local authorities, because we need to ensure that any properties purchased that have been built for private development represent a strategic priority for the local authority and are the right sort of housing in the right place.

Jocelyn Davies: Un o’r pethau yr ydym yn ei ystyried yw dod ag arian ymlaen o’r rhaglen grant tai cymdeithasol. Os gallwn ddod â gwariant ymlaen, byddwn yn gallu ysgogi datblygiad yn awr. Yr wyf wedi gwneud cais am arian ychwanegol, sydd wedi cael ei ystyried. Yr ydych yn dweud nad yw’r targed yn ddigon uchelgeisiol, ond mae’n werth cymharu’r grant tai cymdeithasol a oedd yn cael ei ddyrannu yn 2004, sef £59 miliwn, â’r grant sydd wedi’i ddyrannu yn awr, sef £107 miliwn. Credaf fod hynny’n dangos bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi bod yn rhoi mwy o flaenoriaeth i hyn. Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau y bydd unrhyw adnoddau ychwanegol y gallwn eu cael yn cael eu gwario’n dda, mewn cydweithrediad agos iawn ag awdurdodau lleol, oherwydd mae angen inni sicrhau bod unrhyw dai a brynir, sydd wedi’u hadeiladu ar gyfer datblygiad preifat, yn flaenoriaeth strategol i’r awdurdod lleol a bod y tai hyn o’r math priodol ac yn y man priodol.

Alun Davies: I agree very much with the points you have made in answer to questions, Minister. The Sue Essex report certainly makes it clear that, if we are to deliver on the key housing commitments in the ‘One Wales’ document, we will have to make urgent and radical changes to the way in which we provide affordable housing, and to how it is regulated, funded, assessed and delivered in Wales. Sometimes, there is a real danger that each of us will stand up in turn and identify sites in our regions and constituencies where you might be able to deliver affordable housing. I certainly want to make the case for places such as Bronllys and St Davids, where there are hospital sites with substantial available land holdings that could be used to provide affordable housing for people in areas of great need. I hope that you agree that there is a need for the Government to be creative in the way in which it seeks to use existing public buildings and public land holdings to deliver affordable housing in areas where it is needed.

Alun Davies: Yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr â’r pwyntiau yr ydych wedi’u gwneud wrth ateb cwestiynau, Weinidog. Mae adroddiad Sue Essex yn sicr yn nodi’n glir, os ydym am gyflawni’r ymrwymiadau allweddol sy’n ymwneud â thai yn y ddogfen ‘Cymru’n Un’, y bydd yn rhaid inni wneud newidiadau sylfaenol ar unwaith i’r ffordd yr ydym yn darparu tai fforddiadwy, ac i’r broses reoleiddio, ariannu, asesu a darparu yng Nghymru. Mae perygl gwirioneddol ambell waith y bydd pob un ohonom yn sefyll yn ei dro ac yn nodi safleoedd yn ein rhanbarthau a’n hetholaethau lle gallech ddarparu tai fforddiadwy. Yr wyf yn sicr yn awyddus i bledio achos lleoedd fel Bronllys a Dewi Sant, lle mae safleoedd ysbytai â daliadau tir sylweddol y gellid eu defnyddio i ddarparu tai fforddiadwy i bobl mewn ardaloedd lle mae angen mawr. Yr wyf yn gobeithio eich bod yn cytuno bod angen i’r Llywodraeth fod yn greadigol o ran y ffordd y mae’n ceisio defnyddio adeiladau cyhoeddus sy’n bodoli’n barod a daliadau tir cyhoeddus er mwyn darparu tai fforddiadwy mewn ardaloedd lle mae eu hangen.

Jocelyn Davies: I do not disagree with any of that, Alun. I am pleased that the Minister for Health and Social Services has said that,

Jocelyn Davies: Nid wyf yn anghytuno â hynny, Alun. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau

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if any Assembly Member can identify land held in the health estate, she will be happy to look at it in order to ensure that it will be made available for affordable housing provision where possible.

Cymdeithasol wedi dweud, os gall unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad nodi tir sy’n rhan o’r ystâd iechyd, y bydd yn fodlon edrych arno er mwyn sicrhau y bydd yn cael ei ryddhau ar gyfer darpariaeth tai fforddiadwy lle bo modd.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 5, OAQ(3)0608(ESH), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 5, OAQ(3)0608(ESH), has been withdrawn.

Fly-tipping Tipio Anghyfreithlon

Q6 Nick Ramsay: Will the Minister provide an update on initiatives to combat fly-tipping in Wales? OAQ(3)0619(ESH)

C6 Nick Ramsay: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am fentrau i fynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0619(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Initiatives being adopted by the Assembly Government for tackling fly-tipping in Wales primarily involve partnership working via Pride in Our Communities and Tidy Towns. Ongoing initiatives include the provision of guidance to enforcement bodies and financial support for the training of local authorities to facilitate successful prosecutions against fly-tippers.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r mentrau sy’n cael eu mabwysiadu gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad er mwyn mynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon yng Nghymru, yn bennaf, yn cynnwys gweithio mewn partneriaeth drwy Ymfalchïo yn ein Cymunedau a Threfi Taclus. Mae’r mentrau sy’n cael eu gweithredu ar hyn o bryd yn cynnwys darparu cyfarwyddyd i gyrff gorfodi a chymorth ariannol er mwyn hyfforddi awdurdodau lleol i hwyluso erlyniadau llwyddiannus yn erbyn tipwyr anghyfreithlon.

Nick Ramsay: Thank you, Minister—I think that it is definitely my turn to speak this time. I am sure that you will share my concern that there was a 13 per cent rise in fly-tipping incidents across Wales last year. These figures have risen yet again, and I am particularly concerned about the cost of clearing this waste to local authorities. I think that that has been estimated at around £3 million. I am grateful for your comments on the initiatives that are being undertaken. Will you give us an assurance that you will work with local authorities to ensure that they are best placed to deal with the problem and that, over the year to come and years ahead, we will see a fall in the number of incidents?

Nick Ramsay: Diolch, Weinidog—credaf mai fy nhro i yw hi i siarad y tro hwn yn bendant. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn pryderu, fel finnau, ynglŷn â’r cynnydd o 13 y cant a welwyd mewn achosion o dipio anghyfreithlon ledled Cymru y llynedd. Mae’r ffigurau hyn wedi codi eto, ac yr wyf yn bryderus iawn ynglŷn â chost clirio’r gwastraff hwn i awdurdodau lleol. Amcangyfrifwyd bod y gost honno yn £3 miliwn fwy neu lai. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am eich sylwadau ynglŷn â’r mentrau sy’n cael eu gweithredu. A wnewch ein sicrhau y byddwch yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn y sefyllfa orau bosibl i ymdrin â’r broblem ac y byddwn, yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf a’r blynyddoedd dilynol, yn gweld gostyngiad yn nifer yr achosion?

Jane Davidson: It is a very important issue. Looking back to 2006, when the Assembly Government published its fly-tipping strategy, the aim was to achieve better prevention, detection and enforcement, to

Jane Davidson: Mae’n bwnc pwysig iawn. Gan edrych yn ôl i 2006, pan gyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei strategaeth ar dipio anghyfreithlon, y nod oedd sicrhau gwell trefniadau atal, canfod a gorfodi, er

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improve the data and knowledge base with regard to the problem, to act more effectively, and to help to ensure that the Environment Agency and local authorities carried out their regulatory roles effectively—because it was felt that that just was not happening at the time. Therefore, as a result of much more robust recording of data, we have seen a pretty dramatic increase in the figures. All 22 local authorities recorded more robust numbers for fly-tipping incidents. As you will know, last month, I published a public analysis of the data to help to shape future policy.

mwyn gwella’r data a’r wybodaeth sylfaenol ynglŷn â’r broblem, gweithredu’n fwy effeithiol, a helpu i sicrhau bod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ac awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu rolau rheoliadol yn effeithiol—oherwydd teimlid nad oedd hynny’n digwydd ar y pryd. Felly, o ganlyniad i drefniadau cofnodi data llawer mwy pendant, yr ydym wedi gweld cynnydd go ddramatig yn y ffigurau. Cofnododd pob un o’r 22 awdurdod lleol niferoedd mwy pendant ar gyfer achosion o dipio anghyfreithlon. Fel y gwyddoch, y mis diwethaf, cyhoeddais ddadansoddiad cyhoeddus o’r data er mwyn helpu i lunio polisi ar gyfer y dyfodol.

2.50 p.m.

What is interesting is that the report by Pride In Our Communities, an initiative that crosses a large number of countryside and enforcement agencies, stated that the template for tackling fly-tipping is being successfully implemented across Wales and produces numerous examples of effective enforcement, business engagement, education, community action and publicity measures. That is not least because we provided extra money to local authorities to provide specialist training in enforcement action against fly-tippers, which then equipped local authorities to take effective enforcement action, which is also recorded. There will be a tipping point, as it were, and we want to reach that as soon as possible, so that we can test whether this strategy is effective at getting all those partners to work together to record incidents and take action. There are also far greater fines for these actions than there have been previously.

Yr hyn sy’n ddiddorol yw bod yr adroddiad gan Ymfalchïo yn ein Cymunedau, menter sy’n ymwneud â nifer fawr o asiantaethau cefn gwlad a gorfodaeth, yn dweud bod y templed ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon yn cael ei weithredu’n llwyddiannus ledled Cymru a’i fod yn cynhyrchu nifer o enghreifftiau o orfodaeth effeithiol, ymgysylltu â busnesau, addysg, gweithredu cymunedol a chamau cyhoeddusrwydd. Mae hynny’n rhannol gan ein bod wedi darparu arian ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol er mwyn darparu hyfforddiant arbenigol mewn camau gorfodi yn erbyn tipwyr anghyfreithlon, ac mae hynny yn ei dro wedi galluogi awdurdodau lleol i gymryd camau gorfodi effeithiol, sydd hefyd yn cael eu cofnodi. Bydd pinacl, fel petai, ac yr ydym yn awyddus i gyrraedd y pinacl cyn gynted ag y bo modd, fel y gallwn brofi a yw’r strategaeth hon yn llwyddo i gael pob un o’r partneriaid hynny i weithio gyda’i gilydd i gofnodi digwyddiadau a gweithredu. Mae dirwyon llawer mwy ar gyfer y gweithredoedd hyn nag a welwyd yn y gorffennol hefyd.

Joyce Watson: Will you join me, Minister, in congratulating Carmarthenshire County Council on its work to tackle fly-tipping in its county? Last year, the council, with support from the 1 fund, appointed a second policy officer to tackle fly-tipping. Thanks to funding from Carmarthenshire council, the Assembly Government and Europe, in the last year, 55 voluntary groups have been established as part of the Keep Wales Tidy

Joyce Watson: A wnewch chi ymuno â mi, Weinidog, i longyfarch Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin ar y gwaith y mae wedi’i wneud er mwyn mynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon yn ei sir? Y llynedd, â chymorth ariannol gan 1 Gronfa, penododd y cyngor ail swyddog polisi i fynd i’r afael â thipio anghyfreithlon. Diolch i arian gan Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddin, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac Ewrop, sefydlwyd 55 grŵp

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project, and nearly 1,000 volunteers have helped to clear up 194 tonnes of rubbish from their streets. Do you agree that keeping our countryside clear of rubbish protects wildlife and gives people a much better standard of living?

gwirfoddol y llynedd fel rhan o brosiect Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus, ac mae bron i 1,000 o wirfoddolwyr wedi helpu i glirio hyd at 194 tunnell o sbwriel o’u strydoedd. A ydych yn cytuno bod cadw’n hardaloedd gwledig yn glir o sbwriel yn diogelu bywyd gwyllt ac yn rhoi safon byw lawer gwell i bobl?

Jane Davidson: The Keep Wales Tidy initiative is a partnership. Additional funding goes to Keep Wales Tidy and to local authorities for the Tidy Towns initiative. That is an important new initiative. We are seeing many thousands of people volunteering across Wales, and I commend those in Carmarthenshire and elsewhere who are taking this agenda forward. I am keen to know from Keep Wales Tidy how much has been collected by volunteers across Wales in terms of tonnage, because, in Keep Wales Tidy week, we literally had thousands of volunteers out across Wales doing a job that greatly helps local authorities to deliver their responsibilities in terms of the local environmental quality of life.

Jane Davidson: Partneriaeth yw Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus. Mae arian ychwanegol yn mynd i fenter Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus ac i awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer y fenter Trefi Taclus. Mae honno’n fenter newydd bwysig. Yr ydym yn gweld miloedd o bobl yn gwirfoddoli ledled Cymru, ac yr wyf yn canmol y rhai hynny yn sir Gaerfyrddin ac mewn mannau eraill sy’n symud yr agenda hon yn ei blaen. Hoffwn petai Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus yn gallu dweud wrthym sawl tunnell o sbwriel a gasglwyd gan wirfoddolwyr ledled Cymru, oherwydd, yn ystod wythnos Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus, yr oedd miloedd yn llythrennol o wirfoddolwyr allan ym mhob cwr o Gymru yn gwneud gwaith sydd o gymorth mawr i awdurdodau lleol, drwy eu helpu i gyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau yng nghyswllt ansawdd bywyd amgylcheddol lleol.

Fuel Poverty Tlodi Tanwydd

Q7 Irene James: Will the Minister make a statement on fuel poverty in Wales? OAQ(3)0632(ESH)

C7 Irene James: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am dlodi tanwydd yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0632(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Rises in energy prices over the last year have meant that more people are experiencing fuel poverty. We are reviewing our fuel poverty strategy as part of the work on the national energy efficiency and savings plan to ensure that we maximise the assistance to households affected by fuel poverty.

Jane Davidson: Mae cynnydd ym mhrisiau ynni y llynedd wedi golygu bod mwy o bobl yn profi tlodi tanwydd. Yr ydym yn adolygu’n strategaeth ar dlodi tanwydd fel rhan o’r gwaith ar y cynllun cenedlaethol ar gyfer effeithlonrwydd ac arbedion ynni er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gallu rhoi cymaint o gymorth ag sy’n bosibl i aelwydydd y mae tlodi tanwydd yn effeithio arnynt.

Irene James: What conversations have you had with energy companies with regard to passing on the current decreases in global energy prices to consumers now, during the winter months, when they are most needed, rather than making people wait until some undefined future date for them?

Irene James: Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda chwmnïau ynni ynglŷn â phasio’r gostyngiadau presennol ym mhrisiau ynni drwy’r byd i gyd ymlaen i ddefnyddwyr yn awr, yn ystod misoedd y gaeaf, pan mae arnynt eu hangen fwyaf, yn hytrach na gwneud i bobl aros tan ddyddiad amhenodol rywbryd yn y dyfodol?

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Jane Davidson: As I said in answer to a previous question, I am meeting the energy companies on 2 December in a round-table meeting that will focus on fuel poverty. I have already raised concerns around pre-payment meters, social tariffs and other issues. Only yesterday, we saw the other side of the equation, namely concern around the use of direct debits. The energy companies are fully in the spotlight, and any actions that they take will be scrutinised well by the public, Consumer Focus, in its Energywatch function, and by Assembly Members and other democratically elected politicians. I have already had a dialogue with Ofgem and individual energy companies, and, only last week, I had a dialogue with the Energy Retail Association about the fact that we will only get back public confidence in the energy companies and the liberalised market if they demonstrate that they can reduce prices in relation to the market, just as they can increase them in relation to the market.

Jane Davidson: Fel y dywedais wrth ateb cwestiwn blaenorol, byddaf yn cyfarfod y cwmnïau ynni ar 2 Rhagfyr mewn cyfarfod o amgylch y bwrdd a fydd yn canolbwyntio ar dlodi tanwydd. Yr wyf eisoes wedi mynegi pryderon ynglŷn â mesuryddion talu ymlaen llaw, tariffau cymdeithasol a materion eraill. Ddoe ddiwethaf, gwelsom ochr arall y geiniog, sef pryder ynglŷn â’r modd y defnyddir debydau uniongyrchol. Mae’r cwmnïau ynni dan y chwyddwydr, a bydd y cyhoedd, Llais Defnyddwyr, drwy Golwg ar Ynni, Aelodau Cynulliad a gwleidyddion eraill sydd wedi’u hethol yn ddemocrataidd yn craffu’n fanwl ar unrhyw gamau a gymerir ganddynt. Yr wyf eisoes wedi bod yn cynnal trafodaethau gydag Ofgem a chwmnïau ynni unigol, a’r wythnos diwethaf, bûm yn siarad gyda’r Gymdeithas Manwerthu Ynni ynglŷn â’r ffaith na allwn adennill hyder y cyhoedd yn y cwmnïau ynni na’r farchnad ystwythach oni bai eu bod yn dangos y gallant ostwng prisiau yng nghyswllt y farchnad, yn yr un modd ag y gallant eu cynyddu yng nghyswllt y farchnad.

Angela Burns: You have talked about families and vulnerable people in fuel poverty, Minister, but I ask you to look at utility poverty as a whole. I have a number of constituency cases on this, but one pensioner is spearheading this campaign. This particular person is paying £2,000 a year to have his septic tank emptied, because he is in an area where he cannot put in the right kind of septic tank because of Environment Agency rules. The sum of £2,000 a year is a huge amount of money for anyone in fuel poverty and for a pensioner with a low income. Will you consider broadening this out, so that you do not look at fuel poverty in isolation, but at utility poverty for those in need?

Angela Burns: Yr ydych wedi siarad am deuluoedd a phobl agored i niwed sydd mewn tlodi tanwydd, Weinidog, ond gofynnaf ichi edrych ar dlodi cyfleustodau yn ei gyfanrwydd. Mae gennyf nifer o achosion yn ymwneud â hyn yn fy etholaeth, ond mae un pensiynwr yn arwain yr ymgyrch hon. Mae’r unigolyn penodol hwn yn talu £2,000 y flwyddyn i gael gwagu ei danc carthion, gan ei fod yn byw mewn ardal lle na all osod y math priodol o danc carthion oherwydd rheolau Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Mae £2,000 y flwyddyn yn swm mawr o arian i unrhyw un sydd mewn tlodi tanwydd ac i bensiynwr sydd ag incwm isel. A wnewch ystyried ehangu hyn, fel eich bod yn edrych nid yn unig ar dlodi tanwydd, ond hefyd ar dlodi cyfleustodau i’r rhai hynny sydd mewn angen?

Jane Davidson: You make a very important point, because, as people move into fuel poverty, we are acutely aware that the cost of fuel will displace other elements of their household budget. In most cases, we are most worried that it displaces the food budget of those on low incomes, particularly those with children who live in poverty. Our contribution, which is very small compared

Jane Davidson: Yr ydych yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn, oherwydd, wrth i bobl wynebu tlodi tanwydd, yr ydym yn ymwybodol iawn y bydd cost tanwydd yn disodli elfennau eraill o gyllideb yr aelwyd. Yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, yr ydym yn bryderus iawn y bydd yn disodli cyllideb fwyd y rhai hynny sydd ar incwm isel, yn enwedig y rhai hynny sydd â phlant sy’n byw mewn tlodi. Mae’n cyfraniad

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with the energy companies’ contribution, through our home energy efficiency scheme, currently runs at around £20 million per year. The extra that comes in from your bills and mine, to the energy companies, and which then goes into the carbon emission reduction targets, is some £60 million year. My primary function is to ensure that that money works as effectively as possible, in the most targeted way possible. If you want to write to me about the individual case, I will be happy to see whether there are any mechanisms to assist in a particular circumstance. However, the fuel poverty agenda will not pick up septic tank issues.

ni, sy’n fach iawn o’i gymharu â chyfraniad y cwmnïau ynni, drwy ein cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref, yn £20 miliwn y flwyddyn fwy neu lai ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r swm ychwanegol sy’n dod i mewn o’ch biliau chi a minnau, i’r cwmnïau ynni, ac sy’n mynd wedyn at y targedau lleihau allyriadau carbon, yn £60 miliwn y flwyddyn fwy neu lai. Fy mhrif dasg yw sicrhau bod yr arian hwnnw’n gweithio mor effeithiol ag sy’n bosibl, yn y ffordd sydd wedi’i thargedu orau. Os hoffech ysgrifennu ataf ynglŷn â’r achos unigol, yr wyf yn fodlon edrych a oes unrhyw fecanweithiau er mwyn cynnig cymorth mewn amgylchiadau penodol. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd yr agenda tlodi tanwydd yn ymdrin â materion tanciau carthion.

Mohammad Asghar: It is unfair that energy companies charge people who use pre-payment meters more than other customers. The average annual bill for those customers is over £118 higher than that for those who pay by direct debit. Will the Minister join me in urging gas and electricity companies to accept the Ofgem report, which tells them to stop charging customers with pre-payment meters higher rates?

Mohammad Asghar: Mae’n annheg bod cwmnïau ynni’n codi mwy ar bobl sy’n defnyddio mesuryddion talu ymlaen llaw nag ar gwsmeriaid eraill. Mae’r bil blynyddol cyfartalog ar gyfer y cwsmeriaid hynny dros £118 yn fwy na’r bil ar gyfer y rhai hynny sy’n talu drwy ddebyd uniongyrchol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymuno â mi i annog cwmnïau nwy a thrydan i dderbyn adroddiad Ofgem, sy’n dweud wrthynt y dylent roi’r gorau i godi cyfraddau uwch ar gwsmeriaid sydd â mesuryddion talu ymlaen llaw?

Jane Davidson: I am happy to join you on this. We asked Ofgem, in its price probe, to look at the specific issues of prices in Wales, which led to its report. We are extremely concerned that it was found that pre-payment meter customers in north and south Wales pay more for both electricity and gas than consumers in England, with the difference being slightly greater in south Wales. In fact, the arrangements differ according to different mechanisms, because, in terms of standard credit, customers in south Wales pay slightly less for electricity and less for gas than customers in England. However, customers in north Wales pay less for electricity than customers in England, but more for gas. Therefore, there is a mixed picture. However, for those on pre-payment meters—and we already know that the pre-payment meter is often an inappropriate and very expensive mechanism—it is worse in Wales. That is simply not acceptable. It is a major issue, and it is one that I will raise with the energy companies when I meet them on 2 December.

Jane Davidson: Yr wyf yn fodlon ymuno â chi i wneud hyn. Gofynasom i Ofgem, wrth ymchwilio i’r prisiau, edrych ar broblemau penodol prisiau yng Nghymru, a arweiniodd at ei adroddiad. Yr ydym yn bryderus iawn ynglŷn â’r canfyddiad bod cwsmeriaid sy’n defnyddio mesuryddion talu ymlaen llaw yn y gogledd a’r de’n talu mwy am drydan a nwy na chwsmeriaid yn Lloegr, gyda’r gwahaniaeth ychydig yn fwy yn y de. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r trefniadau’n amrywio yn ôl y mecanweithiau, oherwydd, o ran credyd arferol, mae cwsmeriaid yn y de’n talu ychydig yn llai am drydan a llai am nwy na chwsmeriaid yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, mae cwsmeriaid yn y gogledd yn talu llai am drydan na chwsmeriaid yn Lloegr, ond yn talu mwy am nwy. Felly, mae’r darlun yn un cymysg. Fodd bynnag, yn achos y rhai hynny sydd â mesuryddion talu ymlaen llaw—a gwyddom yn barod bod y mesurydd talu ymlaen llaw yn aml yn fecanwaith amhriodol a chostus iawn—mae’n waeth yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n gwbl annerbyniol. Mae’n

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broblem fawr, ac yn un y byddaf yn ei dwyn i sylw’r cwmnïau ynni pan fyddaf yn eu cyfarfod ar 2 Rhagfyr.

Reducing Carbon Emissions Lleihau Allyriadau Carbon

Q8 Kirsty Williams: What support has the Minister given to local authorities to help them reduce carbon emissions? OAQ(3)0613(ESH)

C8 Kirsty Williams: Pa gefnogaeth y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i rhoi i awdurdodau lleol i’w helpu i leihau allyriadau carbon? OAQ(3)0613(ESH)

Jane Davidson: We are currently developing a climate change strategy for Wales, and the work is considering what action is needed to support local authorities in tackling climate change. That will build on existing activity including the support that we fund through the Carbon Trust and the Energy Saving Trust.

Jane Davidson: Yr ydym wrthi ar hyn o bryd yn datblygu strategaeth ar newid yn yr hinsawdd ar gyfer Cymru, ac mae’r gwaith yn ystyried pa gamau y mae angen eu cymryd er mwyn cynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol i fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd. Bydd hynny’n adeiladu ar y gweithgareddau presennol, gan gynnwys y cymorth yr ydym yn ei ariannu drwy’r Ymddiriedolaeth Garbon a’r Ymddiriedolaeth Arbed Ynni.

Kirsty Williams: Local authorities can play a key role in tackling climate change. Under new frameworks, the carbon reduction in their area will be assessed on a per capita basis, and carbon dioxide reductions from their operations will be assessed, as will their efforts to tackle fuel poverty. How will your Government’s local government settlement assist local authorities in, for example, investing in public transport services and microgeneration projects on their own buildings when that settlement has been so low?

Kirsty Williams: Gall awdurdodau lleol chwarae rhan allweddol yn y gwaith o fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd. Dan fframweithiau newydd, bydd y lleihad mewn carbon yn eu hardal yn cael ei asesu ar sail lleihad y pen, a bydd lleihad mewn carbon deuocsid o’u gweithrediadau’n cael ei asesu, yn ogystal â’u hymdrechion i fynd i’r afael â thlodi tanwydd. Sut y bydd setliad llywodraeth leol eich Llywodraeth chi’n cynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft, i fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cludiant cyhoeddus a phrosiectau microgynhyrchu yn eu hadeiladau eu hunain, a’r setliad hwnnw wedi bod cyn lleied?

Jane Davidson: The declaration on climate change, which was agreed by the Welsh Local Government Association in 2006, had all local authorities in Wales agreeing to reduce carbon dioxide and to act as a catalyst for others to do so. We also need to ensure that they deliver on their own declaration. Where they need assistance, we are helping via the Energy Saving Trust and the Carbon Trust, and we have also funded Salix to provide financial support to a number of local authorities to invest in energy efficiency measures, guidance on community strategies and the ways in which they can address climate change. We have supported the south-east Wales energy partnerships in undertaking a study to look at how they can

Jane Davidson: Yn dilyn y datganiad ar newid yn yr hinsawdd, y cytunwyd ag ef gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn 2006, cytunodd pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru i leihau carbon deuocsid ac i geisio sbarduno eraill i wneud hynny hefyd. Mae angen inni sicrhau hefyd eu bod yn gweithredu eu datganiadau eu hunain. Lle mae arnynt angen cymorth, yr ydym yn helpu drwy’r Ymddiriedolaeth Arbed Ynni a’r Ymddiriedolaeth Garbon, ac yr ydym hefyd wedi ariannu Salix i ddarparu cymorth ariannol er mwyn galluogi nifer o awdurdodau lleol i fuddsoddi mewn camau effeithlonrwydd ynni, cyfarwyddyd ar strategaethau cymunedol a’r ffyrdd y gallant roi sylw i newid yn yr hinsawdd. Yr ydym

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work together to deliver emission reduction objectives. Looking at the new local service board proposals, Gwynedd is developing a pilot project on carbon reduction. All of these elements are important and run alongside local authorities’ contributions, and our contribution, to meeting statutory targets.

wedi cefnogi partneriaethau ynni’r de-ddwyrain i wneud astudiaeth yn edrych sut y gallant weithio gyda’i gilydd i gyflawni amcanion lleihau allyriadau. Ac edrych ar gynigion y bwrdd gwasanaeth lleol newydd, mae Gwynedd yn datblygu prosiect peilot ar leihau carbon. Mae’r elfennau hyn i gyd yn bwysig ac yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â chyfraniadau awdurdodau lleol, a’n cyfraniad ni, er mwyn cyrraedd targedau statudol.

3.00 p.m.

David Lloyd: Further to your answer to the previous question, what encouragement is being given to local authorities across Wales to operate bike-to-work schemes for their staff, thereby reducing the number of cars on our roads and the level of carbon emissions?

David Lloyd: Yn dilyn eich ateb i’r cwestiwn blaenorol, pa anogaeth a roddir i awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru i weithredu cynlluniau seiclo i’r gwaith i’w staff, er mwyn lleihau nifer y ceir ar ein ffyrdd a lefel allyriadau carbon?

Jane Davidson: That is an issue close to my heart. The Assembly Government currently operates a scheme that provides interest-free loans for bicycles and associated safety equipment, and, in January, we are upgrading this scheme to a cycle-to-work scheme, which allows employees to make savings on the cost of a new bicycle and accessories for travel to work on a tax-free salary sacrifice basis. We also, as an Assembly Government, provide the Treasury-recommended 20p per mile for those who use a bike to undertake essential journeys. A new walking and cycling action plan will shortly be published. A key aim of the plan will be to encourage public sector employers to increase the number of staff travelling to work in a sustainable way, for example, through participation in the UK Government’s tax-free bike purchase scheme, and also, as employers, to provide the 20p expenses measure for legitimate journeys. We also sponsor the regional travel plan co-ordinators to prepare plans to encourage cycling to work. We are particularly keen that local authorities prepare their own travel plans in a way that includes increased cycling to work among staff. These philosophies need to operate, at the minimum, across the public sector, but I am delighted to say that I have also seen many examples in the private sector.

Jane Davidson: Dyna fater sy’n agos at fy nghalon. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhedeg cynllun ar hyn o bryd sy’n darparu benthyciadau di-log ar gyfer beiciau ac offer diogelwch cysylltiedig, ac, ym mis Ionawr, byddwn yn uwchraddio’r cynllun hwn i fod yn gynllun seiclo i’r gwaith, sy’n caniatáu i weithwyr wneud arbedion ar gost beic newydd ac offer ategol ar gyfer teithio i’r gwaith ar sail aberthu cyflog heb dalu treth. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad hefyd yn darparu’r 20c y filltir a argymhellir gan y Trysorlys i bobl sy’n defnyddio beic i wneud siwrneiau hanfodol. Cyn bo hir, cyhoeddir cynllun gweithredu newydd i hybu cerdded a seiclo. Un o amcanion allweddol y cynllun fydd annog cyflogwyr y sector cyhoeddus i gynyddu nifer eu staff sy’n teithio i’w gwaith mewn modd cynaliadwy, er enghraifft, drwy gymryd rhan yng nghynllun Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n caniatáu prynu beic yn ddi-dreth, a hefyd, fel cyflogwyr, i ddarparu’r mesur treuliau 20c ar gyfer siwrneiau cyfreithlon. Yr ydym hefyd yn noddi’r cydlynwyr cynlluniau teithio rhanbarthol i baratoi cynlluniau i annog seiclo i’r gwaith. Yr ydym yn arbennig o awyddus i awdurdodau lleol baratoi eu cynlluniau teithio eu hunain mewn modd a fydd yn cynnwys cynyddu seiclo i’r gwaith ymysg staff. Mae angen i’r athroniaethau hyn weithio, o leiaf ar draws y sector cyhoeddus, ond mae’n dda iawn gennyf ddweud fy mod wedi gweld enghraifft lu hefyd yn y sector preifat.

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Darren Millar: The Welsh Assembly Government has failed to ensure that local authorities meet their obligations under the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995. Do you agree that had more support been given to local authorities on that front, carbon emissions in Wales could have fallen in the past 12 months rather than risen, as has been reported to this Assembly, and that fewer families would have ended up in fuel poverty as a result? It is down to the inactivity of the Assembly Government in not ensuring that the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 was enforced.

Darren Millar: Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi methu sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu rhwymedigaethau dan Ddeddf Arbed Ynni yn y Cartref 1995. A ydych yn cytuno pe rhoesid mwy o gefnogaeth i awdurdodau lleol ar y ffrynt hwnnw, y gallasai allyriadau carbon yng Nghymru fod wedi disgyn yn y 12 mis diwethaf yn hytrach na chodi, fel yr adroddwyd wrth y Cynulliad hwn, ac y byddai llai o deuluoedd wedi’u cael eu hunain mewn tlodi tanwydd o ganlyniad? Dyma ganlyniad anweithgarwch Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn peidio â sicrhau gorfodi Deddf Arbed Ynni yn y Cartref 1995.

Jane Davidson: No, I do not agree with you on that.

Jane Davidson: Na, nid wyf yn cytuno â chi ynglŷn â hynny.

Atal Rheolau SefydlogSuspension of Standing Orders

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 35.6 a 35.8:

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Orders Nos. 35.6 and 35.8:

yn atal Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.18(i) a’r rhan honno o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10 sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol bod y cyhoeddiad wythnosol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.3 yn darparu’r amserlen ar gyfer busnes yn y cyfarfod llawn yr wythnos ganlynol, er mwyn caniatáu i’r cynnig o dan eitem 4 gael ei ystyried yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Mawrth 26 Tachwedd 2008. (NNDM4068)

suspends Standing Order No. 7.18(i) and that part of Standing Order No. 6.10 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order No. 6.3 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow the motion under item 4 to be considered in Plenary on Tuesday 26 November 2008. (NNDM4068)

Y Llywydd: Gwelaf nad oes gwrthwynebiad, felly, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, yr wyf yn datgan bod y cynnig wedi’i dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: I see that there is no objection, therefore, in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, I declare the motion carried.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion carried.

Sefydlu ac Ethol y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth CyntafEstablishment and Election of the First Legislative Committee

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I propose that

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Cynullliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 21.1, yn sefydlu pwyllgor i ystyried cynigion deddfwriaethol a gyfeirir ato gan y Pwyllgor Busnes.

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 21.1, establishes a committee to consider legislative proposals referred to it by the Business Committee.

Bydd y pwyllgor yn bodoli hyd ddiwedd y Trydydd Cynulliad. (NNDM4069)

The committee shall exist for the duration of the Third Assembly. (NNDM4069)

Cynigiaf fod I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol Rosemary Butler (Llafur), Ann Jones (Llafur), Jeff Cuthbert (Llafur), Janet Ryder (Plaid Cymru), Nick Ramsay (Ceidwadwyr), ac Eleanor Burnham (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth a sefydlwyd ar 26 Tachwedd. (NNDM4070)

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3, elects Rosemary Butler (Labour) Ann Jones (Labour), Jeff Cuthbert (Labour), Janet Ryder (Plaid Cymru), Nick Ramsay (Conservative) and Eleanor Burnham (Liberal Democrat) as members of the Legislation Committee established on 26 November. (NNDM4070)

Y Llywydd: A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu’r cynigion? Gwelaf nad oes gwrthwynebiad. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynigion eu derbyn.

The Presiding Officer: Does any Member object to the motions? I see that there are no objections. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motions are therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynigion.Motions carried.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 3.03 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 3.03 p.m.

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ar Ganiatâd Tybiedig i Roi Organau

The Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s Report on Presumed Consent for Organ Donation

Jonathan Morgan: I propose that Jonathan Morgan: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

notes the report of the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee on its inquiry into presumed consent for organ donation, which was laid in the Table Office [CR-LD7192] on 30 July 2008. (NDM4062)

yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ar ei ymchwiliad i ganiatâd tybiedig i roi organau, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno [CR-LD7192] ar 30 Gorffenaf 2008.

I am pleased to open this debate on the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s report on presumed consent for organ donation.

Yr wyf yn falch o agor y ddadl hon ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ynglŷn â chaniatâd tybiedig ar gyfer rhoi organau.

I want to place on record my thanks to each Hoffwn gofnodi fy niolch i bob aelod o’r

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committee member for how they approached this inquiry. The report sets out a majority and a minority view, but it is important to put this in context. Despite our differences, we agreed on most things, particularly on the benefits of organ donation and that steps need to be taken to ensure that more organs are made available for transplant. In framing our final conclusions, committee members showed considerable mutual respect for the views of other committee members and, after conducting a rigorous and thorough inquiry; we dealt with the disagreement between us in a way that reflected the mature way in which the whole inquiry was conducted. We could not agree unanimously on the inquiry’s central issue, which was whether to increase organ donation by introducing a change in the law to presumed consent in Wales. However, I do not believe that that is necessarily a failing in the report. There is no monopoly of wisdom on this issue and I think that we have, in some ways, reflected the public view, which is far from being a settled matter.

pwyllgor am y modd yr aethant ati gyda’r ymchwiliad hwn. Mae’r adroddiad yn cyflwyno barn fwyafrifol a lleiafrifol, ond mae’n bwysig rhoi hyn yn ei gyd-destun. Er gwaethaf ein gwahaniaethau, cytunasom ar y rhan fwyaf o bethau, yn enwedig ar fuddiannau rhoi organau a bod angen cymryd camau i sicrhau bod mwy o organau ar gael i’w trawsblannu. Wrth fframio ein casgliadau terfynol, dangosodd aelodau’r pwyllgor gryn barch at farn aelodau eraill o’r pwyllgor, ac ar ôl cynnal ymchwiliad llym a thrwyadl, deliwyd â’r anghytundeb rhyngom mewn modd a adlewyrchai’r modd aeddfed y cynhaliwyd yr ymchwiliad cyfan ynddo. Ni allem gytuno’n unfrydol ar bwnc canolog yr ymchwiliad, sef a ddylid cynyddu’r organau a gaiff eu rhoi drwy gyflwyno newid yn y ddeddf i ragdybio cydsyniad yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn credu bod hynny o reidrwydd yn fethiant yn yr adroddiad. Nid oes monopoli ar ddoethineb ar y mater hwn a chredaf ein bod, mewn rhai ffyrdd, wedi adlewyrchu’r farn gyhoeddus, sydd ymhell o fod yn fater sydd wedi’i setlo.

We were all agreed that transplants save lives, that there is a shortage of organs for transplantation and that we need to do much more to improve the donation rate. We all agreed with the initial report of the UK Organ Donation Taskforce that there are a range of steps that can help to improve donation rates, and we have recommended that these steps be implemented as a matter of urgency. Perhaps most important among these were significantly expanding the network of transplant co-ordinators and establishing a network of organ retrieval teams, making sure that discussions with loved ones about donation are a usual part of end-of-life care so that all those who might potentially donate do so, and providing more and better training for the professionals involved, so that they are equipped to have those difficult conversations with loved ones about the possibility of donation. We also agreed a range of other recommendations covering capacity and operational issues, and how public awareness of organ donation can be raised.

Yr oeddem i gyd yn gytûn fod trawsblaniadau’n achub bywydau, bod prinder organau i’w trawsblannu a bod angen inni wneud llawer mwy i gynyddu’r nifer sy’n rhoi eu horganau. Cytunodd pawb ohonom ag adroddiad cychwynnol Tasglu Rhoi Organau y Deyrnas Unedig fod nifer o gamau a all helpu i gynyddu cyfraddau rhoi, ac yr ydym wedi argymell y dylid gweithredu’r camau hyn yn ddiymdroi. Efallai mai’r mwyaf arwyddocaol o blith y rhain oedd ehangu’n sylweddol y rhwydwaith o gydlynwyr trawsblaniadau a sefydlu rhwydwaith o dimau casglu organau, gan wneud yn siŵr fod trafodaethau gydag anwyliaid ynglŷn â rhoi organau’n rhan arferol o ofal diwedd oes fel bod pawb a allai roi organ yn gwneud hynny, a darparu mwy a gwell hyfforddiant i’r bobl broffesiynol berthnasol, fel bod ganddynt y gallu i gael y sgyrsiau anodd hynny gydag anwyliaid am y posibilrwydd o roi organau. Cytunwyd hefyd ar nifer o argymhellion eraill yn ymwneud â chwestiynau gweithredol a chapasiti, a sut y gellir codi ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus o gwestiwn rhoi organau.

The central point of our inquiry was presumed consent and I intend to spend my

Pwynt canolog ein hymchwiliad oedd caniatâd tybiedig, a bwriadaf dreulio’r amser

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remaining time on that issue. The first question that we asked was whether, providing there was the political will and public support, it was legally possible for the Assembly to gain legislative competence on presumed consent. The advice that we received suggested that there were no fundamental legal reasons why the Assembly could not seek that competence. However, we were also advised that it is not a straightforward matter and that the legal complexities should not be underestimated and should be approached with some caution. On the question of whether separate legislation for Wales would be desirable and workable, we received mixed evidence: a number of witnesses preferred UK-wide legislation and voiced concerns that legislation in Wales could cause confusion to the public; others felt that Wales should take a lead in this area and argued that that would send out a positive message that would outweigh any practical difficulties. In the end, we agreed unanimously that the Assembly is perfectly capable of drawing up robust workable laws on presumed consent. However, whether we are capable of doing so is not the real question.

sy’n weddill gennyf ar y mater hwnnw. Y cwestiwn cyntaf a ofynnwyd gennym oedd a oedd yn gyfreithiol bosibl, a chymryd bod yr ewyllys gwleidyddol a chefnogaeth gyhoeddus yn bodoli, i’r Cynulliad gael cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol ar ganiatâd tybiedig. Awgrymai’r cyngor a gawsom nad oedd dim rhesymau cyfreithiol sylfaenol pam na allai’r Cynulliad geisio’r cymhwysedd hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, fe’n cynghorwyd hefyd nad mater syml mohono ac na ddylid dibrisio’r cymhlethdodau cyfreithiol ac y dylid eu trin gyda chryn ofal. Ar y cwestiwn a fyddai deddfwriaeth ar wahân i Gymru’n ddymunol ac yn ymarferol, cawsom dystiolaeth gymysg: yr oedd nifer o dystion yn ffafrio deddfwriaeth dros y Deyrnas Unedig yn gyfan, gan leisio pryderon y gallai deddfwriaeth yng Nghymru beri dryswch i’r cyhoedd; teimlai eraill y dylai Cymru roi arweiniad yn y maes hwn, gan ddadlau y byddai hynny’n anfon neges gadarnhaol allan a fyddai’n gwrthbwyso unrhyw anawsterau ymarferol. Yn y diwedd, cytunasom yn unfrydol fod y Cynulliad yn berffaith abl i lunio deddfau cadarn ymarferol ar ganiatâd tybiedig. Fodd bynnag, nid a ydym yn abl i wneud hynny yw’r cwestiwn mewn gwirionedd.

The real test and the key question is whether the evidence shows that presumed consent would make a substantial difference to the number of organs available for transplant, and that is the whole problem. The evidence is not as clear cut as we might all like it to be. The argument used by the proponents of presumed consent is that it leads to a significant increase in organ donations. They point to the fact that countries with the highest rates of organ donation tend to be ones that operate opt-out systems. However, it is also the case that some of the countries with the lowest donation rates have opt-out systems. Sweden, for example, operates a legal system of presumed consent, but has one of the lowest organ-donation rates in Europe. Countries such as Ireland and the United States of America, which have among the highest rates of donation, do not have presumed consent.

Y gwir brawf a’r cwestiwn allweddol yw a ydyw’r dystiolaeth yn dangos y byddai rhagdybio caniatâd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol i nifer yr organau a fyddai ar gael ar gyfer trawsblannu, a dyna’r holl broblem. Nid yw’r dystiolaeth mor eglur ag yr hoffem ni i gyd iddi fod. Y ddadl a ddefnyddir gan y rhai sydd o blaid rhagdybio caniatâd yw ei fod yn arwain at gynnydd sylweddol yn y niferoedd sy’n rhoi organau. Tynnant sylw at y ffaith bod gwledydd â’r cyfraddau uchaf o roi organau yn tueddu i fod yn rhai sy’n gweithredu systemau dewis peidio â rhoi. Fodd bynnag, mae’n wir hefyd fod systemau dewis peidio â rhoi gan rai o’r gwledydd lle ceir y cyfraddau rhoi isaf. Mae Sweden, er enghraifft, yn gweithredu system gyfreithiol o ragdybio caniatâd, ond mae ganddi un o’r cyfraddau rhoi organau isaf yn Ewrop. Nid oes caniatâd tybiedig mewn gwledydd fel Iwerddon ac Unol Daleithiau America, lle mae’r cyfraddau rhoi ymysg yr uchaf.

The academic evidence is not overwhelming. One study in particular by researchers at

Nid yw’r dystiolaeth academaidd yn llethol. Cafodd un astudiaeth arbennig gan

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Harvard University and the University of Chicago was often cited in support of a change in the law. That study suggested that presumed consent can improve organ-donation rates, but it concluded that comparisons between countries should be treated with considerable caution and that further research is needed before the impact of changes to the law are fully understood. Since our report, we have also had the UK Organ Donation Taskforce report on presumed consent. The taskforce commissioned the University of York to carry out a systematic review of academic studies in this area, so that it could assess the impact of opt-out legislation on donation rates. Again, the evidence for the introduction of opt-out legislation was not conclusive. Indeed, it pointed to some evidence that donor numbers could even go down.

ymchwilwyr ym Mhrifysgol Harvard a Phrifysgol Chicago ei dyfynnu’n aml i gefnogi newid y gyfraith. Awgrymai’r astudiaeth honno y gall rhagdybio caniatâd wella cyfraddau rhoi organau, ond daeth i’r casgliad y dylid bod yn hynod o ofalus wrth gymharu rhwng gwledydd a bod angen ymchwil pellach cyn deall yn llawn beth yw effaith newidiadau yn y gyfraith. Ers ein hadroddiad ni, yr ydym wedi cael adroddiad Tasglu Rhoi Organau’r Deyrnas Unedig ynglŷn â rhagdybio caniatâd. Yr oedd y tasglu wedi comisiynu Prifysgol Caerefrog i wneud adolygiad systematig o astudiaethau academaidd yn y maes hwn, er mwyn gallu asesu effaith deddfwriaeth dewis peidio â rhoi ar gyfraddau rhoi. Eto, nid oedd y dystiolaeth dros gyflwyno deddfwriaeth dewis peidio â rhoi yn derfynol. Yn wir, dangoswyd ychydig o dystiolaeth y gallai niferoedd rhoddwyr fynd i lawr, hyd yn oed.

I will now turn to the evidence from the country with the highest organ-donation rate in the world—Spain. I am glad to say that, following the Organ Donation Taskforce’s initial recommendations, many of the essentials of the Spanish system are now to be adopted in the United Kingdom. It is estimated that that could lead to an increase of up to 50 per cent in the number of organs available for transplant. It is often claimed that Spain’s success is a consequence of its system of presumed consent. In fact, while Spain nominally operates an opt-out system, in practice, family consent is nearly always needed and the agreement of a judge is required before organs can be taken. We visited Madrid and met Dr Rafael Matesanz, the head of the Spanish National Transplant Organization, who is widely credited as the architect of Spain’s organ-donation system. His view was that presumed consent is not the reason for the success of the Spanish system. He told us that it was solid organisational changes in their health service, good training, and making organ donation the responsibility of everyone involved in end-of-life care that had led to Spain’s success. He made the very telling point that Spain introduced presumed consent legislation in 1979, but it was not until 10 years later, when it established the National Transplant Organization, that it began to see improvements in donation rates.

Trof yn awr at y dystiolaeth o’r wlad â’r gyfradd roi organau uchaf yn y byd—Sbaen. Mae’n dda gennyf ddweud, yn sgil argymhellion cychwynnol y Tasglu Rhoi Organau, fod llawer o hanfodion y drefn yn Sbaen am gael eu mabwysiadu yn y Deyrnas Unedig bellach. Amcangyfrifir y gallai hynny arwain at gynnydd o hyd at 50 y cant yn nifer yr organau sydd ar gael i’w trawsblannu. Haerir yn aml fod llwyddiant Sbaen yn ganlyniad i’w threfn o ragdybio caniatâd. Mewn gwirionedd, er bod Sbaen yn gweithredu system dewis peidio â rhoi mewn enw, yn ymarferol, gofynnir am gydsyniad y teulu bron bob tro ac mae angen i farnwr gytuno cyn y gellir cymryd organau. Aethom i Fadrid a chwrdd â Dr Rafael Matesanz, pennaeth Sefydliad Trawsblannu Cenedlaethol Sbaen, a gydnabyddir yn gyffredinol fel pensaer system roi organau Sbaen. Ei farn ef oedd nad caniatâd tybiedig oedd y rheswm dros lwyddiant system Sbaen. Dywedodd wrthym mai newidiadau trefniadaethol cadarn yn eu gwasanaeth iechyd, hyfforddiant da, a sicrhau bod rhoi organau’n gyfrifoldeb pawb sy’n ymwneud â gofal diwedd oes a oedd wedi arwain at lwyddiant Sbaen. Gwnaeth y pwynt trawiadol iawn fod Sbaen wedi cyflwyno deddfwriaeth caniatâd tybiedig yn 1979, ond na ddechreuodd weld gwelliannau yn y cyfraddau rhoi tan 10 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, pan sefydlodd y Sefydliad

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Trawsblannu Cenedlaethol.

We also have to consider the attitudes of the public. There is no doubt that there is broad public support for organ donation. The committee surveyed almost 900 people, with almost 500 responses from young people aged between 14 and 16, and most respondents clearly supported organ donation. However, support was far less clear cut when it came to presumed consent.

Rhaid inni ystyried agweddau’r cyhoedd hefyd. Nid oes amheuaeth nad oes cefnogaeth gyhoeddus eang i roi organau. Holodd y pwyllgor bron 900 o bobl, gyda bron 500 o ymatebion gan bobl ifanc rhwng 14 ac 16 mlwydd oed, ac yr oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r rhai a atebodd yn glir o blaid rhoi organau. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y gefnogaeth yn llawer llai eglur yn achos caniatâd tybiedig.

3.10 p.m.

Slightly less than half of those surveyed, and fewer than one in three of the young people surveyed, were in favour of presumed consent. I make no claim that this survey is wholly representative of public opinion in Wales, but the views of a significant number of people were surveyed, and presumed consent was far from overwhelmingly endorsed.

Yr oedd ychydig yn llai na hanner y rhai a holwyd, a llai nag un o bob tri o’r bobl ifanc a holwyd, o blaid caniatâd tybiedig. Nid wyf yn honni bod yr arolwg hwn yn gwbl gynrychioliadol o’r farn gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ond holwyd barn nifer sylweddol o bobl, ac yr oedd caniatâd tybiedig ymhell o gael cymeradwyaeth y mwyafrif.

Public support is important and we must not take risks with it. If presumed consent is introduced without clear public backing, then it takes only one high-profile case to undo all of the considerable existing goodwill for organ donation.

Mae cefnogaeth y cyhoedd yn bwysig a rhaid inni beidio â mentro gyda hi. Os cyflwynir trefn o ragdybio caniatâd heb gefnogaeth gyhoeddus glir, yna ni fydd angen dim ond un achos amlwg i ddadwneud yr holl ewyllys da sylweddol sy’n bodoli tuag at roi organau.

Last, but by no means least, there are practicalities to consider. First, we all know that the process of gaining legislative competence will be extremely time-consuming. Thereafter, we would need to consult on, draft, debate and implement the necessary Assembly Measure. Again, that will be time-consuming. More importantly, time and energy will be diverted from making the other improvements that I have outlined, which have a proven track record of success.

Yn olaf, ond nid yn lleiaf o bell ffordd, rhaid ystyried y cwestiynau ymarferol. Yn gyntaf, gwyddom i gyd y bydd y broses o sicrhau cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn un a gymer lawer iawn o amser. Wedyn, byddai angen inni ymgynghori ar y Mesur Cynulliad angenrheidiol, ei ddrafftio, ei drafod a’i weithredu. Eto, bydd hynny’n cymryd amser. Yn bwysicach, tynnir amser ac egni i ffwrdd oddi wrth y gwaith o wneud y gwelliannau eraill yr wyf wedi’u hamlinellu, sydd â record brofedig o lwyddiant.

There are other practical issues to sort out that are far from straightforward, such as the establishment of an opt-out register. This is also likely to carry a hefty price tag. We would need a major public information campaign to inform people of the changes. The cost would be considerable; the Organ Donation Taskforce estimated that the set-up and communication costs would be around £45 million on a UK basis. It would obviously run into millions of pounds for

Mae materion ymarferol eraill i’w datrys sydd ymhell o fod yn syml, fel sefydlu cofrestr dewis peidio â rhoi. Mae’n debyg y bydd hyn yn gostus iawn hefyd. Byddai angen ymgyrch fawr i roi gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd am y newidiadau. Byddai’r gost yn sylweddol; amcangyfrifodd y Tasglu Rhoi Organau y byddai’r costau sefydlu a chyfathrebu oddeutu £45 miliwn i’r Deyrnas Unedig i gyd. Yn amlwg byddai’n filiynau o bunnoedd i Gymru, pe penderfynem dorri ein

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Wales, if we were to decide to go our own way. That money could be put to better use in improving transplant services and the necessary infrastructure in Wales.

cwys ein hunain. Gellid defnyddio’r arian hwnnw’n well wrth wella gwasanaethau trawsblannu a’r isadeiledd angenrheidiol yng Nghymru.

I will briefly mention the Minister’s response to the report. I am pleased that she has accepted all but two of our recommendations, at least in principle. On the two that she has rejected, I am disappointed that she will not look in more depth at increasing the number of intensive care unit beds, but I am glad that she has decided to look at whether we need to increase the number of critical care beds in Wales. Spain has 30 per cent more intensive care beds than we have in Britain, and that was cited as one reason why presumed consent works there, with higher donation rates.

Soniaf yn fyr am ymateb y Gweinidog i’r adroddiad. Yr wyf yn falch ei bod wedi derbyn pob un ond dau o’n hargymhellion, o leiaf mewn egwyddor. O ran y ddau a wrthododd, yr wyf yn siomedig na wnaiff hi edrych mewn mwy o ddyfnder ar gynyddu nifer y gwelyau mewn unedau gofal dwys, ond yr wyf yn falch ei bod wedi penderfynu edrych a oes angen inni gynyddu nifer y gwelyau gofal critigol yng Nghymru. Mae gan Sbaen 30 y cant yn fwy o welyau gofal dwys nag sydd gennym ni ym Mhrydain, a dyfynnwyd hynny fel un rheswm pam y mae rhagdybio caniatâd yn gweithio yn y fan honno, gyda chyfraddau rhoi uwch.

On our central recommendation that we should not at this stage seek the competence to introduce presumed consent in Wales, I would like to press the Minister for greater clarity on the Assembly Government’s position. In a recent reply to me in Plenary, the First Minister indicated that it was now Assembly Government policy to introduce presumed consent legislation in Wales. It seems to me that the First Minister’s comments went some way beyond the official response of the Minister to the committee report. I therefore ask the Minister to clarify in this debate whether it is now the policy of the Assembly Government to introduce presumed consent in Wales.

Ynglŷn â’n hargymhelliad canolog na ddylem ar hyn o bryd geisio’r cymhwysedd i gyflwyno caniatâd tybiedig yng Nghymru, hoffwn bwyso ar y Gweinidog am fwy o eglurder ynghylch safbwynt Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mewn ymateb diweddar i mi mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog mai polisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad bellach oedd cyflwyno deddfwriaeth caniatâd tybiedig yng Nghymru. Mae’n ymddangos i mi fod sylwadau’r Prif Weinidog wedi mynd gryn dipyn ymhellach nag ymateb swyddogol y Gweinidog i adroddiad y pwyllgor. Gofynnaf felly i’r Gweinidog egluro yn y ddadl hon a ydyw bellach yn bolisi gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gyflwyno caniatâd tybiedig yng Nghymru.

In conclusion, presumed consent should only be introduced on the basis that there is clear public understanding of the issues involved and clear public support for the change, that there is clear and strong evidence that it will lead to real improvements in organ donation rates, and that the time, effort and resources needed to bring the change about would not be better spent making other improvements that would work more quickly and be more long lasting. In my view, and the view of the majority of the committee, the case has not yet been proved in any of these areas for the introduction of presumed consent. More than that, we should not allow the effort of

I gloi, ni ddylid ond cyflwyno caniatâd tybiedig ar y sail fod dealltwriaeth gyhoeddus glir o’r materion perthnasol a chefnogaeth gyhoeddus glir i’r newid, bod tystiolaeth glir a chryf y bydd yn arwain at welliannau gwirioneddol yng nghyfraddau rhoi organau, ac na fyddai’r amser, yr ymdrech a’r adnoddau a fyddai’n angenrheidiol i gyflwyno’r newid ddim yn well o gael eu gwario ar wneud gwelliannau eraill a fyddai’n gweithio’n gynt ac a fyddai’n fwy hirhoedlog. Yn fy marn i, a barn mwyafrif y pwyllgor, nid yw’r achos wedi’i brofi eto yn unrhyw un o’r meysydd hyn dros gyflwyno caniatâd tybiedig. Yn fwy na hynny, ni

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introducing presumed consent to get in the way of making other improvements that are more likely to produce better results sooner. In short, it is not the silver bullet that its proponents hope that it is.

ddylem adael i’r ymdrech o gyflwyno caniatâd tybiedig lesteirio gwneud gwelliannau eraill sydd yn fwy tebygol o roi canlyniadau gwell yn fwy buan. Yn fyr, nid dyma’r fwled arian y mae ei phleidwyr yn gobeithio amdani.

Finally, I would like to thank all of those who gave evidence to the committee, and the staff who helped to produce our report. I would particularly like to thank Kidney Wales Foundation, which was instrumental in convincing us to look at this issue, and gave helpful evidence. I know that the organisation is disappointed by our main recommendation, but I hope that it recognises that this was not the result of any lack of support for organ donation on our part—quite the reverse, in fact. I also thank all of the professionals working in the field, who help to transform lives through their work, often in traumatic circumstances. Most particularly, I want to place on record all of our thanks to organ donors for the gift of life that they give to others.

Yn olaf, hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor, ac i’r staff a helpodd lunio ein hadroddiad. Hoffwn ddiolch yn arbennig i Sefydliad Aren Cymru, a fu’n gyfrwng i’n darbwyllo i edrych ar y mater hwn, gan roi tystiolaeth fuddiol. Gwn fod y sefydliad yn siomedig yn ein prif argymhelliad, ond gobeithio y sylweddola nad canlyniad unrhyw ddiffyg cefnogaeth i roi organau ar ein rhan oedd hyn—i’r gwrthwyneb, yn wir. Diolch hefyd i’r holl weithwyr proffesiynol yn y maes, sy’n helpu trawsnewid bywydau drwy eu gwaith, a hynny’n aml mewn amgylchiadau trawmatig. Yn fwyaf arbennig, hoffwn gofnodi ein diolch ni i gyd i roddwyr organau am y rhodd o fywyd a roddant i eraill.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Minister has indicated that she only wishes to speak once in this debate, and that is before the Chair winds up at the end. I therefore call Val Lloyd.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae’r Gweinidog wedi nodi mai dim ond unwaith y mae hi’n dymuno siarad yn y ddadl hon, a hynny cyn i’r Cadeirydd ddirwyn y ddadl i ben ar y diwedd. Galwaf felly ar Val Lloyd.

Val Lloyd: The figures are quite stark: every year 1,000 people in the UK die waiting for an organ transplant. As we speak, an estimated 8,000 patients desperately need a transplant, yet just 3,000 operations are completed each year. In Wales alone, more than 500 people are now in need of a kidney transplant, a number that grows annually as the organ deficit increases. That we need to increase the number of organ donors is not in question—it is a necessity.

Val Lloyd: Mae’r ffigurau’n llwm iawn: bob blwyddyn mae 1,000 o bobl yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn marw wrth aros am drawsblaniad organau. Wrth inni siarad, mae oddeutu 8,000 o gleifion mewn angen dybryd am drawsblaniad, eto dim ond 3,000 o lawdriniaethau a gwblheir bob blwyddyn. Yng Nghymru yn unig, mae angen trawsblaniad aren ar fwy na 500 o bobl yn awr, ac mae’r nifer yn tyfu bob blwyddyn wrth i’r diffyg organau gynyddu. Yn ddiau, mae angen cynyddu nifer y rhoddwyr organau—mae’n anghenraid.

Having some knowledge of the scale of the problem and, even more poignantly, of the personal and family anguish of those waiting for a transplant, I began the committee’s inquiry into presumed consent for organ donation with my mind firmly made up. That may not be the way to do it, but my mind was firmly made up. I believed that presumed consent was to be welcomed and that it

Gan fy mod yn gyfarwydd i ryw raddau â maint y broblem ac, yn fwy teimladwy byth, â gofid personol a theuluol y rheini sy’n aros am drawsblaniad, yr oedd gennyf farn bendant wrth ddechrau ar ymchwiliad y pwyllgor i ganiatâd tybiedig ar gyfer rhoddi organau. Efallai nad felly y dylid bod, ond yr oedd gennyf farn bendant. Credais fod caniatâd tybiedig yn beth i’w groesawu ac y

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should be progressed as soon as possible. However, as the committee’s inquiry proceeded, I began to have doubts, which culminated in my final opinion being that of the majority committee report, which advised that now was not the time to seek legislation for presumed consent. I remain convinced, however, that we must take steps to move towards that end.

dylid symud ymlaen arno cyn gynted ag yr oedd modd. Fodd bynnag, wrth i ymchwiliad y pwyllgor fynd rhagddo, dechreuodd fy amheuon, gan fy arwain yn y diwedd i gyd-fynd ag adroddiad mwyafrifol y pwyllgor, a’i gyngor nad hon oedd yr adeg briodol i geisio deddfwriaeth ar gyfer caniatâd tybiedig. Yr wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi o hyd, fodd bynnag, ei bod yn rhaid inni gymryd camau at y nod hwnnw.

We do not currently have the infrastructure in place to make presumed consent an effective option. We need an increase in suitably prepared health service personnel and facilities. I remain unconvinced that public opinion is such that a system of presumed consent would be universally understood. Many professional organisations responded to our call for evidence but, despite our best efforts—including meeting at locations outside the Assembly—there was little response from the average citizen, apart from through the survey that Jonathan mentioned.

Nid oes gennym seilwaith digonol ar hyn o bryd i beri i ganiatâd tybiedig fod yn ddewis effeithiol. Mae arnom angen mwy o staff a chyfleusterau sydd wedi’u paratoi’n briodol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi eto fod y farn gyhoeddus yn gyfryw fel y byddai pawb yn deall system o ganiatâd tybiedig. Ymatebodd llawer o gyrff proffesiynol i’n galwad am dystiolaeth ond, er gwaethaf pob ymdrech ar ein rhan—gan gynnwys cwrdd mewn lleoliadau y tu allan i’r Cynulliad—prin oedd yr ymateb gan y dinesydd cyffredin, ar wahân i hynny a gafwyd drwy’r arolwg y soniodd Jonathan amdano.

The continued promotion of public debate is important; indeed, it is imperative. To date, the Assembly has embarked on a public consultation process across Wales, for which the Minister must be commended. However, this has demonstrated the need to increase national awareness of organ donation, which is not wholly understood. Our committee report praised Kidney Wales Foundation’s Tell a Loved One campaign, which is a widespread initiative designed to spark conversation about organ donation. While the Human Tissue Act 2004 gives precedence to the wishes of family members, they often refuse to donate the organs of a loved one because they were simply unaware that the deceased wanted to donate. In many cases, people do not carry donor cards, or inform those closest to them that they have joined the register. The Tell a Loved One campaign centralised this idea, with resounding success—the number of donors on the organ donor register rose by 20 per cent across Wales in just one year.

Mae’n bwysig dal i hyrwyddo dadl gyhoeddus; yn wir, mae’n hollbwysig. Hyd yn hyn, mae’r Cynulliad wedi cychwyn ar broses ymgynghori gyhoeddus ledled Cymru, y mae’n rhaid canmol y Gweinidog arni. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn wedi dangos yr angen i hybu ymwybyddiaeth genedlaethol ynghylch rhoddi organau, gan nad yw wedi’i lawn ddeall. Yn adroddiad ein pwyllgor, canmolwyd ymgyrch Dywed wrth Rywun Agos Sefydliad Aren Cymru, sy’n fenter eang sydd â’r amcan o gychwyn sgwrs am roddi organau. Er bod Deddf Meinweoedd Dynol 2004 yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i ddymuniadau aelodau o’r teulu, byddant yn aml yn gwrthod rhoddi organau rhywun annwyl am eu bod yn anymwybodol bod yr ymadawedig yn dymuno eu rhoddi. Mewn llawer achos, ni fydd pobl yn cario cardiau rhoddwr, neu’n rhoi gwybod i’r rheini sy’n agosaf iddynt eu bod wedi ymuno â’r gofrestr. Rhoddodd ymgyrch Dywed wrth Rywun Agos le canolog i’r syniad hwn, gyda llwyddiant mawr—cododd nifer y rhoddwyr ar y gofrestr rhoddwyr organau 20 y cant ledled Cymru mewn un flwyddyn yn unig.

We can build on those results. If one Gallwn adeiladu ar sail y canlyniadau hynny.

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campaign has been so fruitful, we need to look towards developing a consistent programme of public-awareness-raising schemes before promoting legislation. Knowledge has traditionally been the key to empowerment, and if educating people about the benefits of organ donation is likely to be productive, that is where our priorities should first and foremost lie. This, allied to an improved infrastructure, should produce the results that we all wish for.

Gan fod un ymgyrch wedi bod mor gynhyrchiol, mae angen inni ystyried datblygu rhaglen gyson o gynlluniau i hybu ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd cyn hyrwyddo deddfwriaeth. Yn draddodiadol, gwybodaeth fu’r allwedd ar gyfer grymuso, ac os yw addysgu pobl ynghylch manteision rhoddi organau’n debygol o fod yn gynhyrchiol, i hynny y dylem roi blaenoriaeth. Dylai hyn, ynghyd â seilwaith gwell, arwain at y canlyniadau yr ydym oll yn eu dymuno.

Angela Burns: I am grateful for the opportunity to comment on this inquiry into presumed consent for organ donation. I appreciate that this is a difficult situation. I wish to make two points.

Angela Burns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i wneud sylw am yr ymchwiliad hwn i ganiatâd tybiedig ar gyfer rhoddi organau. Sylweddolaf fod hon yn sefyllfa anodd. Dymunaf wneud dau bwynt.

First, I will give a brief report of some salient points arising from a consultation exercise that was held in my constituency. Many of those present were already registered on the organ donor register, or were in favour of organ donation. Many of those who had registered were cross that relatives could subsequently go against their wishes, and that area needs to be considered. However, the majority of those present, even those who were donors themselves, were not in favour of presumed consent. Almost everyone felt that not enough time was being given to publicise the need for organs, and to have discussions about the possibility of being a living donor. Most felt that that option should be explored first, with opportunities to raise the question and encourage those who seemed to be in favour. They wanted to be able to talk about their situation at doctors’ clinics and at well woman clinics.

Yn gyntaf, rhoddaf adroddiad byr am rai pwyntiau perthnasol a gododd o ymarferiad ymgynghori a gynhaliwyd yn fy etholaeth. Yr oedd llawer o’r rheini a oedd yn bresennol wedi’u cofrestru eisoes ar y gofrestr rhoddwyr organau, neu yr oeddent o blaid rhoddi organau. Yr oedd llawer o’r rheini a oedd wedi cofrestru’n ddig bod perthnasau’n gallu mynd yn groes i’w dymuniadau wedyn, ac mae angen ystyried y maes hwnnw. Serch hynny, nid oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r rheini a oedd yn bresennol, hyd yn oed y rheini a oedd yn rhoddwyr eu hunain, yn bleidiol i ganiatâd tybiedig. Teimlai bron bawb nad oedd digon o amser yn cael ei roi at hysbysebu’r angen am organau, a chael trafodaethau am y posibilrwydd o fod yn rhoddwr byw. Teimlai’r rhan fwyaf y dylid ymchwilio i’r dewis hwnnw’n gyntaf, gyda chyfleoedd i godi’r cwestiwn ac annog y rheini a oedd yn ymddangos eu bod o blaid. Yr oeddent am allu siarad am eu sefyllfa yng nghlinigau meddygon ac mewn clinigau menyw iach.

There was a lot of discussion around simplifying the opportunity to register for organ donation, namely putting it on the electoral register or on the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency forms. However, they also had concerns that people should have the opportunity to easily update that information, should they change faith, or change their views, or whatever. Incidentally, medics who were present to talk about organ donation were not in favour of this, as they felt that the public should have accurate

Yr oedd llawer o drafod am symleiddio’r cyfle i gofrestru ar gyfer rhoddi organau, sef ei roi ar y gofrestr etholwyr neu ar ffurflenni’r Asiantaeth Trwyddedu Gyrwyr a Cherbydau. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn bwysig ganddynt hefyd y dylai pobl gael cyfle i ddiweddaru’r wybodaeth honno’n rhwydd, petaent yn newid eu crefydd, neu’n newid eu barn, neu ba beth bynnag. Gyda llaw, nid oedd meddygon a oedd yno i sôn am roddi organau o blaid hyn, gan eu bod yn teimlo y dylai’r cyhoedd gael gwybodaeth gywir er

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information in order to make that informed choice.

mwyn gallu dewis ar sail y wybodaeth honno.

There was a real issue about whether children should be allowed to carry organ donation cards, and at what point they should be deemed able to make their own decision. That was also an issue regarding those who are mentally incapable.

Yr oedd dadl wirioneddol ynghylch a ddylid caniatáu i blant gario cardiau rhoddwr organau, ac ar ba bwynt y dylid barnu eu bod yn gallu penderfynu drostynt hwy eu hunain. Yr oedd dadl hefyd ynghylch y rheini sy’n feddyliol analluog.

3.20 p.m.

Quite a few people said that they would donate all of their organs apart from their ovaries—those were obviously women, not men—because there is a sense that you are giving away something that continues, and that raised a completely different set of ethical issues. However, it was an interesting and well-attended discussion and I urge the Government to look at this further.

Dywedodd cryn nifer o bobl y byddent yn rhoddi eu holl organau heblaw am eu hofarïau—menywod oedd y rheini, wrth reswm, nid dynion—am fod ymdeimlad bod rhywun yn rhoi rhywbeth sy’n parhau, a chodai hynny set o ystyriaethau moesegol cwbl wahanol. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn drafodaeth ddiddorol a nifer da’n bresennol ac anogaf y Llywodraeth i edrych ar hyn ymhellach.

My personal view is that we should not presume consent, but that we should work towards the situation where organ donation becomes a social norm. I believe that people are fed up with being regulated, bullied and coerced. Empirical evidence shows that one of the most important influences on people’s behaviour is what others do. People want to belong and most of us want to be one of the good guys. Evidence shows that if you give people decent information and a gentle nudge in the right direction, they tend to change behaviour of their own accord. Behavioural economists point out that, although we are mainly sane, rational beings, we can and do behave illogically and that inertia sets in. The death of a loved one is probably one time, more than any other, when we will behave illogically. So, rather than legislate or, as my consultation group felt, interfere with an individual sovereign right, might we not consider reviewing the whole question of mandated choice?

Fy marn i yw na ddylem ragdybio bod caniatâd, ond y dylem geisio cyrraedd y sefyllfa lle mae rhoddi organau’n dod yn norm cymdeithasol. Credaf fod pobl wedi blino ar gael eu rheoleiddio, eu bwlio a’u gorfodi. Mae tystiolaeth empeiraidd yn dangos mai un o’r dylanwadau pwysicaf ar ymddygiad pobl yw’r hyn a wnaiff pobl eraill. Mae pobl am berthyn ac mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom am fod yn un o’r bobl dda. Mae tystiolaeth yn dangos, os rhoddwch wybodaeth ddigonol i bobl a phwniad bach i’r cyfeiriad iawn, eu bod yn tueddu i newid ymddygiad o’u gwirfodd. Mae economegwyr ymddygiadol yn nodi, er ein bod yn fodau call, rhesymegol gan mwyaf, ein bod yn gallu ymddwyn yn afresymegol, a’n bod yn gwneud hynny, a’n bod yn mynd yn ddifater. Mae’n debyg bod adeg marwolaeth rhywun annwyl yn un adeg, yn anad yr un arall, pan fyddwn yn ymddwyn yn afresymegol. Felly, yn hytrach na deddfu neu, fel y teimlai fy ngrŵp ymgynghori, ymyrryd â hawl sofran unigol, oni allem ystyried adolygu holl fater dewis mandadol?

In the report, a comment is made that mandated choice:

Yn yr adroddiad, gwneir sylw bod dewis mandadol:

‘is worthy of examination, but it is not yet at the stage at which it should be accepted. However, at the moment, it has not been

yn werth ymchwilio iddo, ond nid yw eto wedi cyrraedd man lle y dylid ei dderbyn. Fodd bynnag, hyd yn hyn, nid yw wedi’i

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explored, and I think that that is highly reprehensible. It would be reprehensible if it were not explored.’

ystyried, a chredaf fod hynny’n resynus iawn. Byddai’n resynus pe na ymchwilid iddo.

In the United States, there has been much work on this. A recent study of social norms by Wes Schultz at California State University shows that, although people may say that they do not care about the opinion of others, their actions belie their words. An experiment was held in San Marcos, California, in which a smiley face was put on the energy bills of those who used less energy than average and a sad face on the energy bill of those who used more than the average. The results were astonishing; they found that high users reduced their consumption significantly and that low users kept their consumption low. So, I ask the Minister to consider investigating mandated choice further and to review all the evidence available, particularly the evidence from abroad. This may be a good, middle way forward, using a carrot rather than a stick on what is a very difficult subject.

Yn yr Unol Daleithiau, gwnaethpwyd llawer iawn o waith ar hyn. Mae astudiaeth ddiweddar o normau cymdeithasol gan Wes Schultz ym Mhrifysgol Talaith Califfornia yn dangos, er y gallai pobl ddweud nad ydynt yn poeni am farn pobl eraill, fod eu gweithredoedd yn gwrth-ddweud eu geiriau. Cynhaliwyd arbrawf yn San Marcos, Califfornia, lle y rhoddwyd llun wyneb hapus ar filiau ynni’r rheini a ddefnyddiai lai o ynni na’r cyfartaledd a llun wyneb trist ar fil ynni’r rheini a ddefnyddiai fwy na’r cyfartaledd. Yr oedd y canlyniadau’n syfrdanol; cawsant fod y rhai a ddefnyddiai lawer o ynni’n defnyddio llai o lawer o ynni a bod y rhai a ddefnyddiai ychydig o ynni’n dal i ddefnyddio ychydig. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog ystyried ymchwilio ymhellach i ddewis mandadol ac adolygu’r holl dystiolaeth sydd ar gael, yn enwedig y dystiolaeth o wledydd tramor. Gallai hyn fod yn ffordd dda, gymedrol ymlaen, gan ddefnyddio abwyd yn hytrach na ffon ar bwnc sy’n un anodd iawn.

David Lloyd: Mae’n bleser gennyf gyfrannu at y ddadl hon. Pwrpas y ddadl yw nodi’r adroddiad, a chytunaf â hynny, er nad wyf yn cytuno â’r prif argymhelliad i wrthwynebu caniatâd tybiedig ar hyn o bryd. Wrth basio, mae angen darpariaeth llawer gwell yn y Gymraeg ym maes trawsblannu organau yn gyffredinol, fel y clywsom mewn tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor.

David Lloyd: It is a pleasure for me to contribute to this debate. The aim of this debate is to note the report, and I agree with it, although I do not agree with the main recommendation of opposing presumed consent at this point. In passing, much better Welsh-language provision is required in organ transplantation generally, as we heard in evidence to the committee.

Yr wyf yn gredwr cryf mewn system o ganiatâd tybiedig meddal fel sydd i’w chael yn Sbaen. Yr wyf yn siomedig nad yw adroddiad y pwyllgor yn cytuno, ac yr wyf hefyd yn siomedig nad yw adroddiad Tasglu ar Roi Organau y DU yn cytuno ychwaith. Mae cyfle euraid wedi ei golli.

I am a strong believer in a system of soft presumed consent, as is operated in Spain. I am disappointed that the committee’s report does not agree, and I am also disappointed that the report of the UK Organ Donation Taskforce does not agree either. A golden opportunity has been lost.

Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn llongyfarch y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Edwina Hart, ac yn cymeradwyo ei safbwynt wrth symud ymlaen gydag ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus, sy’n cynnig gwir obaith i drigolion Cymru y gellir cyflwyno system o ganiatâd tybiedig meddal yma.

However, I congratulate the Minister for Health and Social Services, Edwina Hart, and applaud her viewpoint in moving forward with a public consultation, which offers genuine hope for the residents of Wales that a soft system of presumed consent could be introduced here.

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I am one of the ‘PC3’ on the committee—’PC’ meaning presumed consent rather then Plaid Cymru. We, as a country, face increasing levels of kidney disease, with more than 10,000 people in Wales—and the figure is rising—suffering from kidney disease, with an increasing propensity to develop kidney failure. That means increasing numbers on the waiting list for kidney transplant. The numbers have increased from 300 in 2001 to 500 now. One person dies every day in the UK waiting for a new kidney, which translates to around 30 people every year in Wales who die while on the waiting list for a new kidney. A transplant truly can be life transforming. Possible transplants include two corneas, heart, lungs, two kidneys and a pancreas: one donor, therefore, can transform the life of seven people, if you tot up the organs.

Yr wyf yn un o’r ‘PC3’ ar y pwyllgor—a ‘PC’ yn golygu ‘presumed consent’ yn hytrach na Phlaid Cymru. Yr ydym ni, fel gwlad, yn wynebu lefelau cynyddol o glefyd yr arennau, gan fod mwy na 10,000 o bobl yng Nghymru—ac mae’r ffigur yn codi—yn dioddef gan glefyd yr arennau, gyda thuedd gynyddol i gael pall ar yr arennau. Mae hynny’n golygu bod niferoedd cynyddol ar y rhestr aros i gael trawsblannu arennau. Mae’r niferoedd wedi codi o 300 yn 2001 i 500 yn awr. Bydd un person yn marw bob diwrnod yn y DU wrth aros am aren newydd, sy’n cyfateb i tua 30 o bobl bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru sy’n marw tra byddant ar y rhestr aros i gael aren newydd. Mae trawsblaniad yn gallu gweddnewid bywyd. Ymhlith y trawsblaniadau posibl y mae’r ddwy gornbilen, y galon, yr ysgyfaint, y ddwy aren a’r pancreas: felly mae un rhoddwr yn gallu gweddnewid bywyd saith o bobl, os cyfrifwch yr organau.

A transplant waiting list is not like an ordinary waiting list. Like others, it needs surgeons, nurses, beds and the rest, but it also needs the raw materials: organs. You need both to tackle the ever-increasing disparity between demand for organs and the transplants that need to be carried out. There is a lethal shortfall at present, because UK donation rates are the second lowest in Europe—only Greece has worse rates. We need to treble current organ donation rates to meet the increasing demand. I cannot accept the central pillar of the argument used by opponents of soft presumed consent that improved rates of donation will be achieved by improving infrastructure alone. We need more organs, too.

Nid yw rhestr aros am drawsblaniad yn debyg i restr aros gyffredin. Yn debyg i rai eraill, mae’n galw am lawfeddygon, nyrsys, gwelyau a phob dim arall, ond mae hefyd yn galw am y defnyddiau crai: organau. Mae arnoch angen y ddau i ddelio â’r gwahaniaeth cynyddol rhwng y galw am organau a’r trawsblaniadau y mae angen eu gwneud. Mae diffyg angheuol ar hyn o bryd, am mai cyfraddau rhoddi’r DU yw’r ail isaf yn Ewrop—dim ond Gwlad Groeg sydd â chyfraddau gwaeth. Mae angen inni dreblu’r cyfraddau presennol ar gyfer rhoddi organau er mwyn ateb y galw cynyddol. Ni allaf dderbyn prif sail y ddadl a ddefnyddir gan y rhai sy’n gwrthwynebu caniatâd tybiedig meddal y sicrheir cyfraddau rhoddi gwell drwy wella’r seilwaith yn unig. Mae arnom angen mwy o organau hefyd.

Soft presumed consent is central to Spain’s success with donation rates. We met Dr Rafael Matesanz, and he agrees with that point, about which I asked him specifically. He believes in soft presumed consent because it provides the all-important context for the conversation with the family of a potential donor after a sudden death. Against a backcloth of soft presumed consent, it is far easier for medics and nurses to maintain the sensitive conversation with families when

Mae caniatâd tybiedig meddal yn elfen ganolog yn llwyddiant Sbaen ar gyfraddau rhoddi. Cyfarfuom â Dr Rafael Matesanz, ac mae’n derbyn y pwynt hwnnw, yr holais ef amdano’n benodol. Mae’n credu mewn caniatâd tybiedig meddal am ei fod yn cynnig y cyd-destun hollbwysig i’r sgwrs â theulu rhoddwr posibl ar ôl marwolaeth sydyn. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw o ganiatâd tybiedig meddal, mae’n haws o lawer i feddygon a nyrsys gynnal y sgwrs sensitif â theuluoedd,

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everybody knows that that is the settled will of the country outside the hospital ward. In Spain, therefore, only 15 per cent of families refuse organ donation. Here in the UK, the refusal rate is 40 per cent. Yes, the infrastructure is better in Spain, but it is not poor here. The difference in refusal rates is down to the backcloth of soft presumed consent. It makes the conversation between doctor and family so much easier.

a phawb yn gwybod mai hwnnw yw ewyllys diysgog y wlad y tu allan i ward yr ysbyty. Yn Sbaen, felly, dim ond 15 y cant o deuluoedd sy’n gwrthod rhoddi organau. Yma yn y DU, mae’r gyfradd gwrthod yn 40 y cant. Ydyw, mae’r seilwaith yn well yn Sbaen, ond nid yw’n wael yn y fan hon. Mae’r gwahaniaeth o ran cyfraddau gwrthod yn ganlyniad i gyd-destun y caniatâd tybiedig meddal. Mae’n gwneud y sgwrs rhwng y meddyg a’r teulu’n haws o lawer.

Presumed consent is already widespread, as it already happens in 22 countries around the globe. Organ donation rates in such countries are between 25 and 35 per cent higher than the donation rate in countries that do not have presumed consent. Much has been said about trust, and trust in doctors, yet the British Medical Association—the doctors’ trade union, if you like—strongly agrees with the principle of presumed consent and it cannot understand how the health committee came to its conclusion. After all, 90 per cent of people agree with organ donation, but with our current opt-in system, only around 22 per cent of people have registered as organ donors. Soft presumed consent merely crystallises the current wishes of the people. If you do not agree, then opt out. If you feel that strongly about it, opt out at the time. Tell you family that you want to opt out if it bothers you that much.

Mae caniatâd tybiedig yn gyffredin eisoes, gan ei fod yn digwydd yn barod mewn 22 o wledydd o gwmpas y byd. Mae cyfraddau rhoddi organau mewn gwledydd o’r fath rhwng 25 a 35 y cant yn uwch na’r gyfradd rhoddi mewn gwledydd sydd heb ganiatâd tybiedig. Dywedwyd llawer am ymddiried, ac ymddiried mewn meddygon, ac eto mae Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain—undeb llafur y meddygon, os caf ei roi felly—yn cytuno’n gryf ag egwyddor caniatâd tybiedig ac ni all ddeall sut y daeth y pwyllgor iechyd i’w gasgliad. Wedi’r cwbl, mae 90 y cant o bobl yn derbyn y dylid rhoddi organau, ond gan fod gennym system yn awr lle y dewisir ymuno, dim ond tua 22 y cant o bobl sydd wedi cofrestru’n rhoddwyr organau. Nid yw caniatâd tybiedig meddal ond yn crisialu dymuniadau presennol y bobl. Os nad ydych yn cytuno, ymeithriwch. Os ydych yn teimlo mor gryf â hynny amdano, ymeithriwch bryd hynny. Dywedwch wrth eich teulu’ch bod am ymeithrio os yw’n eich poeni gymaint â hynny.

Faced with lengthening waiting lists for kidney transplants specifically, and faced with an increase in the number of people who die while waiting for a kidney transplant, we must be brave and show leadership. We have the opportunity to do just that.

Yn wyneb rhestrau aros cynyddol am drawsblannu arennau’n benodol, ac yn wyneb cynnydd yn nifer y bobl sy’n marw tra ydynt yn aros am drawsblannu aren, rhaid inni fod yn eofn a dangos arweiniad. Mae gennym gyfle i wneud yr union beth hwnnw.

Jenny Randerson: I cannot think of a more important debate that we have held here in the Chamber.

Jenny Randerson: Ni allaf feddwl am ddadl bwysicach inni ei chynnal yma yn y Siambr.

I preface my comments by noting the fact that yesterday, Jonathan Morgan resigned as chair of the cross-party kidney group. I express my appreciation for his work in that position in putting this issue high on our agenda. It is an important issue indeed, and the work that we in the health committee did

Cyn dod at fy sylwadau, nodaf y ffaith bod Jonathan Morgan wedi ymddiswyddo ddoe fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar arennau. Mynegaf fy ngwerthfawrogiad o’i waith yn y swydd honno o ran rhoi’r mater hwn yn uchel ar ein hagenda. Mae’n fater pwysig dros ben, ac yr oedd y gwaith a

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was as a direct result of the work of the cross-party group.

wnaethom yn y pwyllgor iechyd yn ganlyniad uniongyrchol i waith y grŵp trawsbleidiol.

I am one of the gang of three that opposed the committee’s main recommendations, along with Dai and Helen Mary. We had a piece inserted in the report to make it clear that we do not agree with the decision of the majority of the committee. Having taken evidence over a period of many weeks, and having visited Spain, I believe that the evidence was misinterpreted. Although you can find exceptions, as Jonathan pointed out, if you look at the trend of evidence across the world, it shows an undoubted connection between having a soft system, or a hard system even, of presumed consent and higher rates of organ donation.

Yr wyf yn un o’r tri a wrthwynebodd brif argymhellion y pwyllgor, gyda Dai a Helen Mary. Gwnaethom beri mewnosod darn yn yr adroddiad i egluro nad ydym yn cytuno â phenderfyniad mwyafrif y pwyllgor. Ar ôl cymryd tystiolaeth dros gyfnod o wythnosau lawer, ac wedi ymweld â Sbaen, credaf fod y dystiolaeth wedi’i chamddehongli. Er y gallwch ddod o hyd i eithriadau, fel y nododd Jonathan, os edrychwch ar duedd y dystiolaeth ar draws y byd, mae’n dangos cysylltiad sicr rhwng bod â system feddal o ganiatâd tybiedig, neu un galed hyd yn oed, a chyfraddau uwch ar gyfer rhoddi organau.

We have a unique opportunity in this country to save lives. I am delighted that the minority view of the three members of the committee is supported by the BMA and by charities such as Kidney Foundation Wales and the People Like Us Council, by the Royal College of Nursing.

Mae gennym gyfle unigryw yn y wlad hon i achub bywydau. Yr wyf yn falch bod barn leiafrifol tri aelod o’r pwyllgor wedi’i hategu gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain a chan elusennau megis Sefydliad Aren Cymru, Cyngor Pobl Fel Ni, a Choleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys.

Other organisations and royal colleges also follow that lead, and more are joining all the time to support a soft system of presumed consent. However, more importantly, donors’ families, patients, carers and a large part of the medical profession support presumed consent.

Mae cyrff a cholegau brenhinol eraill yn dilyn yr arweiniad hwnnw hefyd, ac mae mwy ohonynt yn ymuno gydol yr amser i gefnogi system feddal o ganiatâd tybiedig. Fodd bynnag, yn bwysicach, mae teuluoedd rhoddwyr, cleifion, gofalwyr a chyfran fawr o’r proffesiwn meddygol yn cefnogi caniatâd tybiedig.

3.30 p.m.

I want to clear about what we mean by ‘presumed consent’, because we should not underestimate the scaremongering that accompanied the publication of the UK Organ Donation Taskforce’s report last week—although I must say that its 400 pages produced the most limp recommendations I have ever come across. Fortunately, we are having a proper debate in Wales, and I want to place on record my support for the strong stance that the Minister has taken on the issue. We are having a real debate about it in Wales, and the Minister has taken a strong lead on it.

Mae arnaf eisiau bod yn eglur o ran yr hyn yr ydym yn ei olygu wrth ddweud ‘caniatâd tybiedig’, oherwydd ni ddylem anwybyddu effaith y codi bwganod a gafwyd yn sgil cyhoeddi adroddiad Tasglu Rhoi Organau’r DU yr wythnos diwethaf—er ei bod yn rhaid imi ddweud bod ei 400 tudalen wedi esgor ar yr argymhellion mwyaf llipa imi eu gweld erioed. Yn ffodus, yr ydym yn cael trafodaeth go iawn yng Nghymru, a hoffwn gofnodi fy nghefnogaeth i’r safiad cryf y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i gymryd ar y mater hwn. Yr ydym yn cael trafodaeth o ddifrif arno yng Nghymru, ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi rhoi arweiniad cryf arno.

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What does the soft system of presumed consent mean? It means that you can formally opt out of it. If you die and you or your next of kin cannot be identified, your organs will not be taken. In addition, if your relatives object, you organs cannot be taken, which is a key safeguard, as it means that no-one will be railroaded into anything that they do not want to do.

Beth y mae’r system feddal o ganiatâd tybiedig yn ei olygu? Mae’n golygu y gallwch wneud dewis ffurfiol i beidio â bod yn rhan o’r system. Os byddwch yn marw ac os na ellir canfod pwy ydych chi neu eich perthynas agosaf, ni chymerir eich organau. At hynny, os bydd eich perthnasau’n gwrthwynebu, ni ellir cymryd eich organau, ac mae hyn yn fesur diogelu allweddol, gan ei fod yn golygu na fydd neb yn cael eu gorfodi i wneud dim nad oes arnynt eisiau’i wneud.

Spain has been quoted as an example, but let me quote Belgium. In Belgium, there was a large increase in organ donation figures after the introduction of presumed consent in 1986. At that time, staff at the Antwerp organ donation centre were opposed to the law, and continued with an opt-out system, relying on public education. In contrast, staff at the Leuven organ donation centre adopted the system of presumed consent. Over three years, the Antwerp centre’s organ donation rates remained static, while the Leuven centre’s rates rose from 15 donors to 40 donors a year. Belgium’s national rate of organ donation rose by 55 per cent in five years. That was the impact of a soft system of organ donation in that country. Therefore, we should not rely just on Spain. Spain is a wonderful example of an extremely good infrastructure combined with a soft system of presumed consent, but other countries can show us a similar picture. We should also bear in mind that we must have a strong public education programme, because when I hear comments from some people who say that they are opposed to presumed consent, they reveal only the longstanding and serious gap in public understanding of what it means.

Cyfeiriwyd at Sbaen fel enghraifft, ond gadewch imi gyfeirio at Wlad Belg. Yng Ngwlad Belg, gwelwyd cynnydd mawr yn y ffigurau rhoi organau wedi i ganiatâd tybiedig gael ei gyflwyno yn 1986. Bryd hynny, yr oedd staff canolfan rhoi organau Antwerp yn gwrthwynebu’r ddeddf, a bu iddynt barhau â system o ddewis peidio â rhoi, gan ddibynnu ar addysgu’r cyhoedd. Ar y llaw arall, bu i staff canolfan rhoi organau Leuven fabwysiadu’r system caniatâd tybiedig. Dros dair blynedd, arhosodd cyfraddau rhoi organau canolfan Antwerp yr un fath, ond gwelwyd cynnydd yng nghyfraddau canolfan Leuven o 15 rhoddwr i 40 rhoddwr y flwyddyn. Bu cynnydd o 55 y cant yng nghyfradd genedlaethol rhoi organau Gwlad Belg mewn pum mlynedd. Dyna oedd effaith system feddal o roi organau yn y wlad honno. Nid ar Sbaen yn unig y dylem ddibynnu, felly. Mae Sbaen yn enghraifft ragorol o seilwaith arbennig o dda wedi’i gyfuno â system feddal o ganiatâd tybiedig, ond gall gwledydd eraill ddangos darlun tebyg inni. Dylem hefyd gofio ei bod yn rhaid inni gael rhaglen gref o addysgu’r cyhoedd, oherwydd pan glywaf sylwadau gan rai pobl sy’n dweud eu bod yn gwrthwynebu caniatâd tybiedig, yr unig beth y maent yn ei ddatgelu yw’r bwlch difrifol sy’n bod ers tro byd yn nealltwriaeth y cyhoedd o’r hyn y mae’n ei olygu.

David Melding: It has been fascinating to listen to this debate, and, although I am not a member of the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee, I commend its report. I believe that the report has been based on firm evidence and has anticipated the findings of the Organ Donation Taskforce. That report was accompanied by many illustrations and examples of people

David Melding: Bu’n hynod o ddifyr gwrando ar y ddadl hon ac, er nad wyf yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol, yr wyf yn cymeradwyo ei adroddiad. Credaf fod yr adroddiad wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth gadarn a’i fod wedi rhagweld canfyddiadau’r Tasglu Rhoi Organau. Cafwyd ynghyd â’r adroddiad hwnnw lawer o enghreifftiau o bobl oedd

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who had been in these difficult situations, and it is clear that public opinion is quite divided on how to proceed, not on the fact that we need more donors but on the best infrastructure to have to ensure that we can use organs that are fit for donation. So far, there have been quite strong views on both sides but they have remained within the boundary of being tasteful and respecting the other view. I hope that this debate will continue in that fashion.

wedi bod yn y sefyllfaoedd anodd hyn, ac mae’n amlwg bod barn y cyhoedd yn eithaf rhanedig ynghylch sut y dylid symud ymlaen, nid o ran bod arnom angen mwy o roddwyr ond o ran y seilwaith gorau i’w gael i sicrhau y gallwn ddefnyddio organau sy’n addas i’w rhoi. Hyd yn hyn, cafwyd safbwyntiau eithaf cryf ar y ddwy ochr ond maent wedi aros o fewn ffiniau bod yn chwaethus a pharchu’r farn arall. Gobeithiaf y bydd y ddadl hon yn parhau yn yr un modd.

The recommendations in the report urge a soft system of presumed consent, and, with custom and practice, it seems to me that relatives could be approached if we had widespread publicity campaigns, which could simply state that if you are in the unfortunate situation of having a loved one come towards the end of life or be in a serious accident, a member of the medical staff may speak to you about the issue. There is no law saying that you have to carry a donor card to have your organs donated. We need to investigate some of these issues before we say that we need a shift in the law and what should trigger it. In Spain, the evidence is ambiguous. Some say that they have firmly identified better practice and preparation rather than the law.

Mae’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad yn annog system feddal o ganiatâd tybiedig, a, chydag arfer, ymddengys imi y gellid holi perthnasau petai gennym ymgyrchoedd cyhoeddusrwydd eang, a allai, yn syml, ddatgan os ydych yn y sefyllfa anffodus lle mae un o’ch anwyliaid yn dod i ddiwedd ei oes neu’n cael damwain ddifrifol, efallai y bydd aelod o’r staff meddygol yn trafod y mater gyda chi. Nid oes deddf yn dweud ei bod yn rhaid ichi gario cerdyn rhoddwr er mwyn gallu rhoi eich organau. Mae angen inni ymchwilio i rai o’r materion hyn cyn inni ddweud bod arnom angen newid yn y gyfraith a beth ddylai ei ysgogi. Yn Sbaen, mae’r dystiolaeth yn amwys. Dywed rhai eu bod wedi canfod yn bendant mai gwell arferion gwaith a pharatoi sy’n tycio, yn hytrach na’r ddeddf.

Jenny has given a very interesting example in Belgium. I do not know it very well, but I think that she has mentioned one very Protestant area and one very Catholic area. Therefore, you have to be careful about cultural backgrounds when looking for examples that can be transferred instantly to another system.

Mae Jenny wedi rhoi enghraifft hynod o ddiddorol yng Ngwlad Belg. Nid wyf yn adnabod y wlad yn dda iawn, ond credaf iddi grybwyll un ardal hynod o Brotestannaidd ac un ardal hynod o Gatholig. Mae’n rhaid ichi fod yn ofalus, felly, ynghylch cefndiroedd diwylliannol wrth chwilio am enghreifftiau y gellir eu trosglwyddo’n uniongyrchol i system arall.

Therefore, the balance of this report is appropriate. I do not think that legislation is the best way to proceed at this stage, certainly if it is for Wales only. We should be part of the UK debate. I commend the practical nature of much of this report, in dealing with the need for more capacity. I do not want to go into the details, but you need expert care to ensure that organs from people very close to death are fit for use.

Felly, mae cydbwysedd yr adroddiad hwn yn addas. Nid wyf yn credu mai deddfwriaeth yw’r ffordd orau o symud ymlaen ar hyn o bryd, yn sicr os dim ond i Gymru y mae. Dylem fod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth ar lefel y DU. Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo natur ymarferol rhannau helaeth o’r adroddiad hwn, o ran ymdrin â’r angen am fwy o gapasiti. Nid oes arnaf eisiau trafod manylion, ond mae arnoch angen gofal arbenigol er mwyn sicrhau bod organau pobl sy’n agos iawn at farw yn addas i’w defnyddio.

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We need better public awareness of its being a reasonable thing to ask. I think that it was Dai Lloyd who said that more than 90 per cent of people think it an appropriate thing to do. I would certainly have no objections if any of my organs were to be used, although I would want my body treated with respect, and buried. That is my personal choice. We have to be tender and sensitive when dealing with relatives. Training national health service staff is a key issue. How many of us would be comfortable talking about these issues with our relatives, far less with doctors and nurses? Perhaps that is the way to begin to take this agenda further.

Mae arnom angen gwell ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith y cyhoedd o’r ffaith ei fod yn beth rhesymol i’w ofyn. Credaf mai Dai Lloyd a ddywedodd fod mwy na 90 y cant o bobl yn meddwl ei fod yn beth addas i’w wneud. Ni fyddai gennyf fi, yn sicr, ddim gwrthwynebiadau pe defnyddid unrhyw rai o’m horganau i, er y byddai arnaf eisiau i’m corff gael ei drin yn barchus, a’i gladdu. Fy newis personol i yw hynny. Mae’n rhaid inni fod yn dyner ac yn sensitif wrth ymdrin â pherthnasau. Mae hyfforddi staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn fater allweddol. Faint ohonom a fyddai’n gyfforddus yn trafod y materion hyn gyda’n perthnasau, heb sôn am eu trafod gyda doctoriaid a nyrsys? Efallai mai dyna sut y dylid dechrau datblygu’r agenda hon.

At this stage, it is paramount that we unite on the need for more donors. Dai Lloyd so ably described the advances in medicine and we all agree that lives can be transformed by this. However, at the moment, opinion is still divided and it is really important that we respect everyone’s view as we advance and take this debate further.

Ar y cam hwn, mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn gytûn ar yr angen am ragor o roddwyr. Disgrifiodd Dai Lloyd y datblygiadau ym maes meddygaeth yn hynod fedrus, ac mae pob un ohonom yn cytuno y gall hyn drawsnewid bywydau. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, mae’r farn yn rhanedig o hyd ac mae’n hynod o bwysig ein bod yn parchu barn pawb wrth inni fwrw ymlaen a datblygu’r drafodaeth hon.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): Today’s debate has outlined the diversity of opinion on this as well as the common issues of how we need more people to donate their organs to assist others. I will start by addressing the practical issues that arise from the report.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Mae dadl heddiw wedi amlinellu’r amrywiaeth o safbwyntiau a geir ar hyn, ynghyd â’r materion sydd gennym yn gyffredin, megis y ffaith bod arnom angen i ragor o bobl roi eu horganau er mwyn cynorthwyo eraill. Cychwynnaf drwy ymdrin â’r materion ymarferol sy’n codi yn sgil yr adroddiad.

Originally, we had the recommendations of the Organ Donation Taskforce, and I appointed Dr George Findlay, an intensive care consultant from Cardiff, to chair our group in Wales. The group will enable Wales to have more of an input into the work of UK Transplant and will ensure a greater focus on Welsh organ donation issues. It will also ensure that a comprehensive training programme is developed, which picks up nicely David Melding’s point about making improvements to the training for healthcare professionals, to ensure that the recommendations are implemented properly. The group will be meeting shortly and will

Yn wreiddiol, yr oedd gennym argymhellion y Tasglu Rhoi Organau, a phenodais Dr George Findlay, ymgynghorydd gofal dwys o Gaerdydd, i gadeirio ein grŵp yng Nghymru. Bydd y grŵp yn galluogi Cymru i gael mwy o fewnbwn i waith UK Transplant a bydd yn sicrhau mwy o bwyslais ar faterion rhoi organau yng Nghymru. Bydd hefyd yn sicrhau bod rhaglen hyfforddi gynhwysfawr yn cael ei datblygu, ac mae hynny’n dilyn yn daclus bwynt David Melding ynghylch gwella’r hyfforddiant i weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes gofal iechyd er mwyn sicrhau bod yr argymhellion yn cael eu cyflwyno’n gywir. Bydd y grŵp yn cwrdd yn fuan a bydd

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need to press ahead with its deliberations, as it should have met sooner and got on with it a little quicker, in my opinion.

angen iddo fwrw ymlaen â’i drafodaethau, oherwydd dylai fod wedi cwrdd yn gynt ac wedi bwrw iddi ychydig yn fwy chwim, yn fy marn i.

Another practical issue is the funding of dedicated transplant units. The new renal transplant unit in Cardiff will offer much-needed capacity, as Dai said, and will deliver an increased number of renal transplants to patients in south Wales. The scope of the scheme is to provide a renal transplant infrastructure for the population of south Wales. It is not predicated on repatriating transplant patients from north Wales, who will continue to receive transplants in Liverpool and Manchester. The north Wales renal network is undertaking a review of renal transplant services in north Wales to identify areas of improvement for that part of Wales.

Mater ymarferol arall yw ariannu unedau trawsblannu penodedig. Bydd yr uned trawsblannu arennau newydd yng Nghaerdydd yn cynnig capasiti y mae taer angen amdano, fel y dywedodd Dai, a bydd yn sicrhau nifer uwch o drawsblaniadau arennol i gleifion yn y de. Bwriad y cynllun yw darparu seilwaith trawsblannu arennau ar gyfer poblogaeth y de. Nid yw’n seiliedig ar ailgyfeirio cleifion trawsblannu o’r gogledd, a fydd yn parhau i gael eu trawsblaniadau yn Lerpwl a Manceinion. Mae rhwydwaith arennol y gogledd yn cynnal adolygiad o wasanaethau trawsblannu arennau yn y gogledd i ganfod meysydd lle y gellid gwneud gwelliannau ar gyfer y rhan honno o Gymru.

Revenue funding has been allocated to the renal transplant unit scheme in Cardiff, and capital costs have been prioritised in the all-Wales capital programme. I am sure that people will be delighted to know that the design of the new transplant ward and the outpatients’ area has been agreed, and the building of the tower block is progressing well. There have been a few delays because of technical issues. As part of the new transplant unit scheme, a fifth transplant surgeon is being recruited, as well as an additional transplant specialist nurse and a specialist nurse to deal with blood incompatibility in live donors. That shows the improvements that we are undertaking in Wales on the infrastructure side.

Dyrannwyd cyllid refeniw i gynllun yr uned trawsblannu arennau yng Nghaerdydd, ac mae’r costau cyfalaf wedi cael blaenoriaeth yn rhaglen gyfalaf Cymru gyfan. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pobl wrth eu bodd o glywed bod cynllun y ward drawsblannu newydd ac ardal y cleifion allanol wedi’i gytuno, a bod y gwaith adeiladu ar y tŵr yn mynd rhagddo’n dda. Cafwyd rhywfaint o oedi yn sgil materion technegol. Yn rhan o gynllun yr uned drawsblannu newydd, mae pumed llawfeddyg trawsblannu yn cael ei recriwtio, yn ogystal â nyrs ychwanegol sy’n arbenigo mewn trawsblaniadau a nyrs arbenigol i ymdrin ag anghymarusrwydd gwaed mewn rhoddwyr byw. Dengys hynny’r gwelliannau yr ydym yn eu cyflwyno yng Nghymru o ran y seilwaith.

3.40 p.m.

The critical care infrastructure forms part of the discussion on presumed consent and the wider issues, and I agree that there is a link between critical care facilities and the ability to run more effective transplant services, but clinical advice does not entirely support the view that having more intensive treatment unit beds equates to more donors. The committee highlighted ITU bed numbers in Spain but did not take account of the designation of those ITU beds and how many were for lower dependency levels, such as

Mae’r seilwaith gofal critigol yn rhan o’r drafodaeth ar ganiatâd tybiedig a’r materion ehangach, ac yr wyf yn cytuno bod cysylltiad rhwng cyfleusterau gofal critigol a’r gallu i redeg gwasanaethau trawsblannu mwy effeithiol, ond nid yw’r cyngor clinigol yn cefnogi gant y cant y safbwynt bod cael mwy o welyau uned triniaeth ddwys gyfystyr â mwy o roddwyr. Tynnodd y pwyllgor sylw at niferoedd gwelyau uned triniaeth ddwys yn Sbaen ond ni wnaethant ystyried sut y defnyddir y gwelyau uned triniaeth ddwys

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high dependency unit beds. The situation in Spain will be due to multiple factors and there are other issues to consider, such as Spain having some of the highest numbers of road traffic accidents in the European Union, and the local organisation of organ donation and transplant services. That said, clinical advisers agree that we need more critical care beds in Wales, and we will pursue that.

hynny a faint ohonynt oedd ar gyfer lefelau dibyniaeth is, megis gwelyau unedau dibyniaeth fawr. Bydd y sefyllfa yn Sbaen yn dibynnu ar lawer o ffactorau ac mae angen ystyried materion eraill, megis y ffaith bod gan Sbaen rai o’r niferoedd damweiniau ffyrdd uchaf yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, a threfniant lleol y gwasanaethau rhoi organau a thrawsblannu. Er hynny, mae cynghorwyr clinigol yn cytuno bod arnom angen rhagor o welyau gofal critigol yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn mynd ar drywydd hynny.

I recognise these issues and I am taking steps to improve critical care in Wales. For example, I have established regional critical care networks. I have published quality requirements and strategic frameworks to direct action. I have set up networks to look at delayed transfers of care from critical care units to maximise the existing capacity, and I have reviewed critical care capacity in each of the regions. Plans will be submitted to me by the end of the year. Therefore, that deals with some of the practical issues.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod y materion hyn ac yr wyf yn cymryd camau i wella gofal critigol yng Nghymru. Er enghraifft, yr wyf wedi sefydlu rhwydweithiau gofal critigol rhanbarthol. Yr wyf wedi cyhoeddi gofynion ansawdd a fframweithiau strategol i gyfeirio unrhyw gamau a gymerir. Yr wyf wedi sefydlu rhwydweithiau i ystyried oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal o unedau gofal critigol i wneud yn fawr o’r capasiti sydd ar gael eisoes, ac yr wyf wedi adolygu’r capasiti gofal critigol ym mhob un o’r rhanbarthau. Cyflwynir cynlluniau imi erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Mae hynny, felly, yn ymdrin â rhai o’r materion ymarferol.

On presumed consent, the Government’s position on this is as outlined in my written response to the committee. In the discussions that we have had so far, I have looked at the whole issue of holding a public debate. Public meetings have been organised by community health councils, supported by clinicians with an expertise in organ donation, and the presentations and questions answered have proved important. I was particularly interested in Angela Burns’s contribution on this, describing how the debate had developed locally for her and the issues that had emerged. When I review today’s discussions, I will take them on board as part of my public consultation on presumed consent. Those attending the meetings have given positive feedback about the approach adopted, and rich and useful data have already been collected.

O ran caniatâd tybiedig, mae safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar hyn yn unol â’r hyn a amlinellir yn fy ymateb ysgrifenedig i’r pwyllgor. Yn y trafodaethau a gawsom hyd yn hyn, yr wyf wedi ystyried holl fater cynnal trafodaeth gyhoeddus. Mae cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus wedi’u trefnu gan gynghorau iechyd cymuned, gyda chefnogaeth clinigwyr sydd yn arbenigo mewn rhoi organau, ac mae’r cyflwyniadau a’r cwestiynau a atebwyd wedi bod yn bwysig. Yr oedd gennyf ddiddordeb penodol yng nghyfraniad Angela Burns ar hyn, a hithau’n disgrifio sut yr oedd y drafodaeth wedi datblygu’n lleol iddi hi a’r materion a oedd wedi codi. Pan fyddaf yn adolygu trafodaethau heddiw, byddaf yn eu hystyried yn rhan o’m hymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar ganiatâd tybiedig. Mae’r rheini sydd wedi bod yn bresennol yn y cyfarfodydd wedi rhoi adborth cadarnhaol ynglŷn â’r dull gweithredu a ddefnyddiwyd, ac mae data cyfoethog a defnyddiol eisoes wedi’u casglu.

In addition to public meetings, members of the public have been encouraged to write or

Yn ogystal â chyfarfodydd cyhoeddus, mae aelodau o’r cyhoedd wedi’u hannog i anfon

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e-mail their views, which will also feed into the report. We have also written to a wide range of public and voluntary sector organisations to encourage them to become involved. A website is being created with an online poll, allowing the public to indicate its preference, and officials are in the process of collating that evidence. I have also received quite a lot of representation from individuals asking whether more meetings could be held on this, and I will give further consideration to that as I think that it is important that we maximise the discussions that are taking place. The discussions on presumed consent make people think about whether they should register and carry a donor card. That, in itself, is useful to increase the number of potential donors. We have also questioned a representative sample of the population as a piece of telephone research, and that is ongoing.

eu sylwadau yn ysgrifenedig neu ar e-bost, a bydd y rhain hefyd yn cyfrannu at yr adroddiad. Yr ydym hefyd wedi ysgrifennu at amrywiaeth eang o gyrff yn y sector cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol i’w hannog i gymryd rhan. Mae gwefan yn cael ei chreu sy’n cynnwys pleidlais ar-lein, a fydd yn caniatáu i aelodau’r cyhoedd ddangos beth y maent yn ei ffafrio, ac y mae swyddogion wrthi’n casglu’r dystiolaeth honno. Yr wyf hefyd wedi cael cryn dipyn o sylwadau gan unigolion yn gofyn a ellid cynnal rhagor o gyfarfodydd ar hyn, a byddaf yn ystyried hynny ymhellach gan fy mod yn credu ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn cynnal cynifer o drafodaethau â phosibl. Mae’r trafodaethau ar ganiatâd tybiedig yn gwneud i bobl feddwl a ddylent gofrestru a chario cerdyn rhoddwr. Mae hynny, yn ei hun, yn ddefnyddiol o ran cynyddu nifer y rhoddwyr posibl. Yr ydym hefyd wedi holi sampl gynrychioliadol o’r boblogaeth yn rhan o ymchwil ar y ffôn, ac mae’r gwaith hwnnw’n parhau.

David Melding’s comments reminded us of the importance of religious differences, given the differences between the Protestant and Catholic parts of Belgium. Through the good offices of the Archbishop of Wales, I will be meeting faith leaders in Wales in January to understand better the views of the faith groups on presumed consent. It will be important for me to have that discussion in light of the comments coming from the public.

Bu i sylwadau David Melding ein hatgoffa o bwysigrwydd gwahaniaethau crefyddol, ac ystyried y gwahaniaethau rhwng rhannau Protestannaidd a Chatholig o Wlad Belg. Drwy gymwynasgarwch Archesgob Cymru, byddaf yn cwrdd arweinwyr ffydd yng Nghymru ym mis Ionawr i gael gwell dealltwriaeth o safbwyntiau’r grwpiau ffydd ar ganiatâd tybiedig. Bydd yn bwysig imi gael y drafodaeth honno yn sgil y sylwadau sy’n dod gan y cyhoedd.

Each party in the Chamber has articulated very well the issues of presumed consent in this debate. I have made the Government’s position clear in that I do not intend to rule out legislation. However, I understand the points that Jonathan made about the difficulties with how that could be perceived. I want to reassure Members that there is less rather than more that divides us in this report, if anything, because we are all committed to ensuring more organ donation.

Mae pob plaid yn y Siambr wedi disgrifio’r materion sydd ynghlwm â chaniatâd tybiedig yn hynod o dda yn y ddadl hon. Yr wyf wedi egluro safbwynt y Llywodraeth, sef nad wyf yn bwriadu diystyru deddfwriaeth. Yr wyf, fodd bynnag, yn deall y pwyntiau a wnaeth Jonathan ynghylch yr anawsterau o ran y canfyddiad posibl o hynny. Hoffwn sicrhau’r Aelodau mai dim ond ar ychydig faterion yr ydym yn rhanedig yn yr adroddiad hwn, a dweud y gwir, oherwydd mae pob un ohonom wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod mwy o organau’n cael eu rhoi.

I will finish on that point. Our campaign has been exceptionally successful. The Tell a Loved One campaign has worked very well. The public identifies with the campaign and with the individuals involved in promoting it.

Yr wyf am gloi ar y pwynt hwnnw. Mae ein hymgyrch wedi bod yn eithriadol o lwyddiannus. Mae’r ymgyrch Dywed wrth Rywun Agos wedi gweithio’n hynod o dda. Mae’r cyhoedd yn uniaethu â’r ymgyrch ac

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The campaign has made a significant difference to the numbers of people registering as potential organ donors. However, it cannot stop there. Whatever happens, we have to keep up the campaign with individuals, changing it slightly to target our audiences. I have been working quite closely with the Kidney Wales Foundation, which takes the lead on this on behalf of all of the charities, to see what further campaigns we can run. We might run work-based campaigns with the agreement of the trade unions, and we will also be looking at more campaigns aimed at young people. We have been particularly successful with campaigns during freshers’ weeks, discussing the importance of students carrying donor cards. We must now look at the further education sector. We also have ‘Give and Let Live’ education packs for schools, which are particularly important.

â’r unigolion sy’n ei hyrwyddo. Mae’r ymgyrch wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol i nifer y bobl sy’n cofrestru fel rhoddwyr organau posibl. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna’i diwedd hi. Beth bynnag sy’n digwydd, mae’n rhaid inni barhau â’r ymgyrch gydag unigolion, a newid mymryn arni er mwyn targedu ein cynulleidfaoedd. Yr wyf wedi bod yn gweithio’n eithaf agos gyda Sefydliad Aren Cymru, sy’n arwain ar hyn ar ran yr holl elusennau, i weld pa ymgyrchoedd eraill y gallwn eu cynnal. Efallai y byddwn yn cynnal ymgyrchoedd sy’n seiliedig ar waith, gyda chytundeb yr undebau llafur, a byddwn hefyd yn ystyried rhagor o ymgyrchoedd sydd wedi’u hanelu at bobl ifanc. Yr ydym wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus gydag ymgyrchoedd yn ystod wythnosau’r glas, gan drafod pwysigrwydd myfyrwyr yn cario cardiau rhoddwyr. Rhaid inni’n awr edrych ar y sector addysg bellach. Mae gennym hefyd becynnau addysg ‘Give and Let Live’ i ysgolion, sy’n hynod o bwysig.

Helen Mary Jones: Minister, would you also consider looking at campaigns targeted at particular ethnic groups? The committee took evidence that some minority ethnic groups were under-represented in terms of people coming forward for donation and that there was not any religious reason why that should be so. It may be that we need to target certain groups of people, and perhaps that is something that you can discuss with faith leaders. Certain groups may have lower levels of awareness of this than others.

Helen Mary Jones: Weinidog, a fyddech chi hefyd yn ystyried rhoi sylw i ymgyrchoedd wedi’u targedu at grwpiau ethnig penodol? Cymerodd y pwyllgor dystiolaeth a ddangosai fod rhai grwpiau ethnig lleiafrifol yn cael eu tangynrychioli yn nhermau pobl yn eu cyflwyno’u hunain ar gyfer rhoi organau ac nad oedd unrhyw reswm crefyddol dros hynny. Efallai fod arnom angen targedu rhai grwpiau o bobl, ac efallai fod hynny’n rhywbeth y gallwch ei drafod gydag arweinwyr ffydd. Efallai fod lefelau ymwybyddiaeth rhai grwpiau ynghylch hyn yn is nag eraill.

Edwina Hart: I think that UK Transplant already has schemes targeted specifically at ethnic groups and young people. I want to know what I could do in Wales to enhance that with regard to this agenda. I am more than happy to take that forward.

Edwina Hart: Credaf fod gan UK Transplant rai cynlluniau eisoes wedi’u targedu’n benodol at grwpiau ethnig a phobl ifanc. Mae arnaf eisiau gwybod beth y gallwn i ei wneud yng Nghymru i wella hynny yng nghyswllt yr agenda hon. Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i fwrw ymlaen â hynny.

The committee’s report began an exceptionally useful debate across Wales, which the Government has followed on from in its discussions. The important thing is to remember that the endgame is to ensure that more organs are donated to save lives. Following the discussions on presumed consent, we might decide to go for

O ganlyniad i adroddiad y pwyllgor, dechreuwyd trafodaeth eithriadol o ddefnyddiol ledled Cymru, ac o hynny y datblygodd trafodaethau’r Llywodraeth. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw cofio mai pen draw’r daith yw sicrhau bod mwy o organau’n cael eu rhoi i achub bywydau. Yn sgil y trafodaethau ar ganiatâd tybiedig, mae’n

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legislation. I wish to make it clear to the Chamber today that I will take into account what comes out of the consultation process and my discussions with faith leaders. It is on that basis that I will make recommendations to the Chamber.

bosibl y byddwn yn penderfynu anelu am ddeddfwriaeth. Dymunaf egluro i’r Siambr heddiw y byddaf yn cymryd i ystyriaeth yr hyn a ddaw allan o’r broses ymgynghori a’m trafodaethau gydag arweinwyr ffydd. Ar y sail honno y byddaf yn gwneud argymhellion i’r Siambr.

I thank the committee for all of its hard work and deliberations. I also thank people for the way in which they have responded to the debate. It is important that, in Wales, we have chosen to have such a wide-ranging public debate, that we are not frightened to talk to people and take on board their views, and that we are not frightened to disagree with each other here—because what we are disagreeing about is the issue of presumed consent, not the endgame of saving lives.

Diolchaf i’r pwyllgor am ei holl waith caled a’i drafodaethau. Diolchaf hefyd i bobl am y modd y maent wedi ymateb i’r drafodaeth. Mae’n bwysig ein bod, yng Nghymru, wedi dewis cael y fath drafodaeth gyhoeddus eang iawn, nad oes arnom ofn siarad â phobl ac ystyried eu safbwyntiau, ac nad oes arnom ofn anghytuno â’n gilydd yma—oherwydd yr hyn yr ydym yn anghytuno yn ei gylch yw mater caniatâd tybiedig, nid achub bywydau fel pen draw’r daith.

Jonathan Morgan: I thank Val Lloyd, Angela Burns, Dai Lloyd, Jenny Randerson, David Melding and, of course, the Minister for their remarks today. This was a hugely sensitive issue for the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee to deal with. No-one imagined at the outset how difficult and complex the subject would be, and Members came at it with very principled opinions as to whether the law in Wales should change. I would like to start by thanking Val Lloyd for the way in which she approached the issue. Many of us went into the debate on one side or the other, and many of us had our views somewhat altered.

Jonathan Morgan: Diolchaf i Val Lloyd, Angela Burns, Dai Lloyd, Jenny Randerson, David Melding ac, wrth gwrs, y Gweinidog ei hun am eu sylwadau heddiw. Yr oedd hwn yn fater sensitif dros ben i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ddelio ag ef. Nid oedd neb yn dychmygu ar y dechrau pa mor anodd a chymhleth y byddai’r pwnc, a daeth Aelodau ato gyda barn egwyddorol iawn ynghylch a ddylid newid y ddeddf yng Nghymru. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i Val Lloyd am y modd yr ymagweddodd at y mater. Aeth nifer ohonom i mewn i’r ddadl ar y naill ochr neu’r llall, a newidiwyd rhywfaint ar safbwyntiau nifer ohonom.

I find it quite astonishing that, in this country, we have a refusal rate from families of some 40 per cent and that 10 per cent of those refusals are made by families of individuals who carried an organ donor card or who are on the register. I find it astonishing that we do not have the culture within our hospital environment that allows medics to have the confidence to have that very difficult conversation with families. The evidence before us now from the Organ Donation Taskforce is that we need to change the culture in Britain and that we should do that through the training of medics who, at the moment, are quite frankly too scared to approach families to talk about organ donation.

Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu bod gennym raddfa gwrthod o du teuluoedd o tua 40 y cant a bod 10 y cant o’r gwrthodiadau hynny’n cael eu gwneud gan deuluoedd unigolion oedd â cherdyn rhoddwr organau neu sydd ar y gofrestr. Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu nad oes gennym y diwylliant yn amgylchedd ein hysbytai sy’n caniatáu i feddygon fod â’r hyder i gynnal y sgwrs anodd iawn honno gyda theuluoedd. Y dystiolaeth ger ein bron yn awr o’r Tasglu Rhoi Organau yw bod angen inni newid y diwylliant ym Mhrydain ac y dylem wneud hynny drwy hyfforddi meddygon sydd ar hyn o bryd, a siarad yn blaen, yn rhy ofnus i fynd at deuluoedd i siarad am roi organau.

I thank Angela Burns and David Melding for Diolchaf i Angela Burns a David Melding am

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their contributions. It is good to get contributions from people who do not sit on the committee, who are therefore able to bring in a different perspective. Angela is absolutely right about the way in which people approach certain parts of their bodies. I was interested to learn that many women who attended the consultation meetings said that they did not want their ovaries to be taken. Many other people do not like the idea of their eyes being taken. However, I absolutely agree with Angela that we need to make organ donation a social norm. The question for us is whether we think that a change in the law is the way to change culture and make organ donation a social norm or whether it is all of the other things that I outlined in my introduction that would lead to that outcome.

eu cyfraniadau. Buddiol yw cael cyfraniadau gan bobl nad ydynt yn rhan o’r pwyllgor, ac sydd o ganlyniad yn gallu cyflwyno persbectif gwahanol. Mae Angela yn gwbl gywir ynghylch y modd y mae pobl yn ymagweddu at rai rhannau o’u cyrff. Diddorol i mi oedd clywed bod nifer o’r menywod a aeth i’r cyfarfodydd ymgynghorol wedi dweud nad oedd arnynt eisiau i’w ofarïau gael eu cymryd. Nid yw nifer o bobl eraill yn hoffi’r syniad o adael i’w llygaid gael eu cymryd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr ag Angela bod angen inni sicrhau bod rhoi organau yn arfer cymdeithasol. Y cwestiwn i ni yw a gredwn mai newid yn y gyfraith yw’r ffordd i newid diwylliant a pheri bod rhoi organau yn arfer cymdeithasol neu ai’r holl bethau eraill a amlinellais yn fy nghyflwyniad a fyddai’n arwain at y canlyniad hwnnw.

The committee received evidence about mandated choice. We spent some time looking at that, and it may be that the Government will want to consider that as an alternative. However, we looked more specifically at presumed consent simply because there is a system of presumed or positive consent in most European countries. With regard to proponents of presumed consent, many people have cited Spain as the prime example of where a legislative change has brought about a significant improvement in donation rates. I know how frustrating it must be for those who see Spain as the model to hear the comments of Dr Matesanz, the head of the Spanish system, who said to the organ donor taskforce that presumed consent is not the reason for the success of the Spanish system. He said:

Cafodd y pwyllgor dystiolaeth ynghylch dewis mandedig. Treuliasom gryn amser yn ystyried hynny, ac mae’n bosibl y bydd y Llywodraeth am ystyried hynny fel dewis amgen. Fodd bynnag, rhoesom sylw mwy penodol i ganiatâd tybiedig yn syml am fod system o ganiatâd tybiedig neu gadarnhaol yn y rhan fwyaf o wledydd Ewrop. Yng nghyswllt pobl sydd o blaid caniatâd tybiedig, mae nifer o bobl wedi nodi mai Sbaen yw’r brif enghraifft o fan lle mae newid deddfwriaethol wedi sicrhau gwelliant mawr yn y graddfeydd rhoi. I’r rhai sydd o’r farn mai Sbaen yw’r model, gwn mor rhwystredig ydyw iddynt glywed sylwadau Dr Matesanz, pennaeth y system Sbaenaidd, a ddywedodd wrth y tasglu rhoi organau nad caniatâd tybiedig yw’r rheswm dros lwyddiant system Sbaen. Meddai:

‘Is it because of the law? Not likely.’ ‘Ai oherwydd y gyfraith? Go brin.’

3.50 p.m.

Jonathan Morgan: We must take that on board, as well as they fact that many other European companies with systems of presumed consent have lower donation rates than Britain. I have mentioned Sweden. The Slovak Republic has presumed consent, but a lower rate of organ donation, as does Luxembourg, Greece, Estonia, Cyprus and Turkey. They all have lower rates of organ donation, but they have a different legal

Jonathan Morgan: Rhaid inni ystyried hynny, ynghyd â’r ffaith bod gan nifer o gwmnïau Ewropeaidd eraill sydd â systemau caniatâd tybiedig raddfeydd rhoi sy’n is na rhai Prydain. Crybwyllais Sweden. Mae gan Weriniaeth Slofacia ganiatâd tybiedig, ond graddfa is o roi organau, a’r un modd Lwcsembwrg, Groeg, Estonia, Cyprus a Thwrci. Mae ganddynt i gyd raddfeydd is o roi organau, ond mae ganddynt fframwaith

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framework. The point that I am making is that we must accept that the picture is a very mixed one, and we cannot assume that a change in the law is a silver bullet.

cyfreithiol gwahanol. Y pwynt yr wyf yn ei wneud yw ei bod yn rhaid inni dderbyn bod y darlun yn un cymysg iawn, ac ni allwn dybio bod newid yn y gyfraith yn fwled arian.

Helen Mary Jones: Do you accept that no-one on our side of the debate is saying that a change to presumed consent on its own will make a difference? I think that we have all said that you need to have the infrastructure in place, and that the only question is whether you then need presumed consent. I do not believe that presumed consent on its own would make a difference if you did not have the doctors, nurses and all the other facilities that are outlined in the report as necessary.

Helen Mary Jones: A ydych yn derbyn nad oes neb ar ein hochr ni i’r ddadl yn dweud y bydd newid i ganiatâd tybiedig yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ynddo’i hun? Credaf ein bod i gyd wedi dweud bod angen ichi gael y seilwaith ar waith, ac mai’r unig gwestiwn yw pa un a oes angen caniatâd tybiedig arnoch wedyn. Ni chredaf y byddai caniatâd tybiedig ar ei ben ei hun yn gwneud gwahaniaeth pe na bai gennych y meddygon, y nyrsys a’r holl gyfleusterau eraill sy’n angenrheidiol yn ôl amlinelliad yr adroddiad.

Jonathan Morgan: I thank Helen Mary for that intervention. I am not sure whether she was here for the start of this debate, but, in my opening speech, I pointed out that there were plenty of other things in terms of capacity that the Assembly could usefully do.

Jonathan Morgan: Diolchaf i Helen Mary am yr ymyriad yna. Nid wyf yn sicr pa un a oedd hi yma ar gyfer dechrau’r ddadl hon ond, yn fy araith agoriadol, tynnais sylw at y ffaith bod nifer o bethau eraill, yn nhermau capasiti, y byddai’n fuddiol i’r Cynulliad eu gwneud.

I thank Jenny Randerson for her kind remarks about the work that I have done with the all-party kidney group. It is now important for the all-party kidney group to have a chair who is signed up to this particular agenda. It would be unfair on the group to have me as chair, when my view is different to its official view, although I will continue to be supportive in the range of work that it does.

Diolchaf i Jenny Randerson am ei sylwadau caredig am y gwaith yr wyf wedi’i wneud â grŵp hollbleidiol yr arennau. Mae’n bwysig yn awr i grŵp hollbleidiol yr arennau gael cadeirydd sy’n cydsynio â’r agenda benodol hon. Byddai’n annheg i’r grŵp fy nghael i yn gadeirydd, gan fod fy marn yn wahanol i’w farn swyddogol, er y byddaf yn parhau i gefnogi’r amrediad o waith a wna.

David Melding talked about the need to change the culture in which families are approached. That is absolutely central to changing this in the future. It is astonishing that the Human Tissue Act 2004 allows medics the legal right to take the organs of a dead individual who had an organ donor card but that, in 10 per cent of cases, families refuse and the clinician backs down. You can understand why the clinician does that—they are in the most awkward situation. We know that the present situation does not work well, and it is about the level of training and confidence that clinicians have.

Siaradodd David Melding am yr angen i newid y diwylliant sy’n gyd-destun i’r modd y cysylltir â theuluoedd. Mae hynny’n gwbl ganolog i newid hyn yn y dyfodol. Mae’n rhyfeddol bod Deddf Meinweoedd Dynol 2004 yn caniatáu i feddygon gael yr hawl cyfreithiol i gymryd organau unigolyn marw oedd â cherdyn rhoddwr organau ond bod teuluoedd yn gwrthod mewn 10 y cant o achosion, a bod y clinigydd yn ildio. Gallwch ddeall pam y mae’r clinigydd yn gwneud hynny—maent mewn sefyllfa letchwith iawn. Gwyddom nad yw’r sefyllfa bresennol yn gweithio’n dda, ac mae’n ymwneud â lefel yr hyfforddiant a gaiff clinigwyr ac â’u hyder.

Finally, you talked about the areas of training and infrastructure where work has already been done, such as on the new transplant

Yn olaf, soniasoch, Weinidog, am y meysydd hyfforddiant a seilwaith lle y gwnaethpwyd gwaith eisoes, megis y gwaith a wnaethpwyd

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unit, Minister. We welcome that. In terms of the Government’s policy on presumed consent, I hope that you will be able to inform the First Minister that it is not Government policy to pursue presumed consent. You have said this afternoon that Government policy is as you outlined in your response to our report. In that response, you said that you will not rule anything in or out but that you are willing to consult further. That is perfectly sensible, and I welcome it. It is a perfectly sensible way for the Minister for health to proceed, but the First Minister gave an assurance to the Chamber that presumed consent was the policy of the Government. We accept that the debate is developing; it is focusing on organ donation, and it is making people talk about organ donation as something that is viable at the end of life. We have seen an increase in the number of people on the organ donor register, which we welcome, as we welcome the fact that the debate will continue. We all know that organ donation is the gift of life, and we should be attempting to improve organ donation rates.

ar yr uned drawsblannu newydd. Yr ydym yn croesawu hynny. Yn nhermau polisi’r Llywodraeth ar ganiatâd tybiedig, gobeithiaf y byddwch yn gallu hysbysu’r Prif Weinidog nad polisi’r Llywodraeth yw mynd ar drywydd caniatâd tybiedig. Dywedasoch y prynhawn yma mai polisi’r Llywodraeth yw’r un a amlinellwyd gennych yn eich ymateb i’n hadroddiad. Yn yr ymateb hwnnw, dywedasoch na fyddwch o blaid nac yn erbyn unrhyw beth ond eich bod yn fodlon ymgynghori ymhellach. Mae hynny’n gwbl synhwyrol, ac yr wyf yn ei groesawu. Mae’n ffordd gwbl synhwyrol i’r Gweinidog dros iechyd fwrw ymlaen, ond rhoddodd y Prif Weinidog sicrwydd i’r Siambr mai caniatâd tybiedig oedd polisi’r Llywodraeth. Derbyniwn fod y ddadl yn datblygu; mae’n canolbwyntio ar roi organau, ac mae’n peri bod pobl yn siarad am roi organau fel rhywbeth dichonadwy ar derfyn bywyd. Gwelsom gynnydd yn nifer y bobl sydd ar y gofrestr rhoddwyr organau, a chroesawn hynny, fel y croesawn y ffaith y bydd y ddadl yn parhau. Gwyddom oll mai rhodd bywyd yw rhoi organau, a dylem fod yn ceisio gwella graddfeydd rhoi organau.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposed motion is to note the report of the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In that case, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig a gynigir yw nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, cytunir ar y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion carried.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr CymreigWelsh Conservatives Debate

Trais yn erbyn Staff y GIGViolence Against NHS Staff

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Carwyn Jones and amendment 3 in the name of Kirsty Williams.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Carwyn Jones a gwelliant 3 yn enw Kirsty Williams.

Jonathan Morgan: I propose that Jonathan Morgan: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. continues to express grave concern about 1. yn parhau i fynegi pryder difrifol am y

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the levels of violence against NHS staff and that the responsibility for pursuing such crimes are still on the individual worker; and

lefelau trais yn erbyn staff y GIG a bod y cyfrifoldeb dros fynd ar drywydd troseddau o’r fath yn dal ar ysgwyddau’r gweithiwr unigol; ac

2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to create its own national service unit dedicated to raising the number of successful prosecutions against those who are violent to NHS staff, which will ensure parity with NHS workers in England. (NDM4065)

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i greu ei huned gwasanaeth gwladol ei hun sy’n ymroddedig i gynyddu nifer yr erlyniadau llwyddiannus yn erbyn y rheini sy’n ymddwyn yn dreisgar tuag at staff y GIG, a fydd yn sicrhau cydraddoldeb â gweithwyr y GIG yn Lloegr. (NDM4065)

We have chosen this topic for debate this afternoon because, while we accept that the Minister for Health and Social Services takes seriously the safety and security of all the people working in the National Health Service, and that she is taking a number of steps to improve the level of safety that NHS staff can expect, we also believe, as a party, that there are things that we are not doing currently that we could do to give NHS staff greater confidence when dealing with the difficult situations that they often face, particularly in our acute care hospitals, especially when patients, sadly, resort to violence or abuse.

Yr ydym wedi dewis y testun hwn i’w drafod y prynhawn yma oherwydd, er ein bod yn derbyn bod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ystyried o ddifrif ddiogelwch a sicrwydd pawb sy’n gweithio yn y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol, a’i bod yn cymryd nifer o gamau i wella lefel y diogelwch y gall staff y GIG ei disgwyl, credwn hefyd, fel plaid, bod pethau nad ydym yn eu gwneud ar hyn o bryd y gallem eu gwneud i roi mwy o hyder i staff y GIG wrth iddynt ymdrin â’r sefyllfaoedd anodd a wynebant yn aml, yn enwedig yn ein hysbytai gofal acíwt, yn arbennig pan fydd cleifion, yn anffodus, yn troi at drais neu gam-drin.

The National Health Service, as we all know, has a legal obligation to protect its staff, and we are concerned that the responsibility for pursuing a prosecution in such cases still lies with the individual worker in Wales, and that there is no emphasis at all on the employer’s taking that into account and pursuing the matter alongside the individual NHS worker. In contrast, the NHS in England established a national legal protection unit in 2003. That unit is dedicated to supporting hospital workers who wish to pursue a case in which a patient has been violent. We are calling on the Assembly Government to look urgently at this and to look at establishing a unit in Wales that will provide workers in Wales with the same access to legal help and advice as that available to their colleagues in England.

Mae gan y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol, fel y mae pob un ohonom yn gwybod, ymrwymiad cyfreithiol i amddiffyn ei staff, a phryderwn mai’r gweithiwr unigol yng Nghymru sy’n gyfrifol o hyd dros ddwyn i erlyniad mewn achosion o’r fath, ac nad oes pwyslais o gwbl ar fod y cyflogwr yn cymryd hynny i ystyriaeth ac yn dwyn y mater i erlyniad ochr yn ochr â’r gweithiwr GIG unigol. Mewn cyferbyniad, sefydlodd y GIG yn Lloegr uned amddiffyn gyfreithiol yn 2003. Mae’r uned honno’n ymroddedig i gefnogi gweithwyr ysbytai sy’n dymuno mynd ar drywydd achosion lle bu claf yn dreisgar. Yr ydym yn galw ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i ystyried hyn ar frys ac ystyried sefydlu uned yng Nghymru fydd yn rhoi i weithwyr yng Nghymru yr un mynediad at gymorth a chyngor cyfreithiol â’r hyn sydd ar gael i’w cydweithwyr yn Lloegr.

The problems regarding the number of vacancies in the Welsh NHS are well documented, and violence against staff—both physical and mental—is adding to the

Mae’r problemau o ran nifer y swyddi gwag yn y GIG yng Nghymru wedi’u cofnodi, ac mae trais yn erbyn staff—yn gorfforol a meddyliol—yn ychwanegu at y pwysau yn

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pressure in terms of the general recruitment and retention of staff. As a party, we believe that maintaining a highly motivated workforce is key to delivering a first-class, world-class NHS in Wales. We call on the Assembly Government to take additional steps to address these issues when tackling vacancies that are hard to fill.

nhermau recriwtio a chadw staff yn gyffredinol. Fel plaid, credwn fod cynnal gweithlu llawn cymhelliant yn allweddol i ddarparu GIG dosbarth cyntaf, o safon y byd yng Nghymru. Galwn ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gymryd camau ychwanegol i ymdrin â’r materion hyn wrth fynd i’r afael â swyddi gwag sy’n anodd eu llenwi.

We remain worried about the levels of violence in our accident and emergency departments. We are also concerned about the many attacks in our hospitals that are unreported. We believe that a campaign to raise awareness would help with the reporting and prosecution of incidents. We call on the Minister to look at a cross-party campaign to highlight the issues. The Assembly and the Assembly Government cannot sit back and assume that things are getting better on their own in our hospitals.

Parhawn i ofidio am lefelau’r trais yn ein hadrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys. Pryderwn hefyd am yr ymosodiadau niferus yn ein hysbytai nad adroddir amdanynt. Credwn y byddai ymgyrch i godi ymwybyddiaeth yn gymorth o ran adrodd am ddigwyddiadau a’u dwyn i erlyniad. Galwn ar y Gweinidog i ystyried ymgyrch drawsbleidiol i amlygu’r materion dan sylw. Ni all y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad eistedd yn ôl a thybio bod pethau’n gwella ar eu pennau eu hunain yn ein hysbytai.

It is appalling that NHS staff in Wales are victims of such high levels of verbal and physical abuse. According to the Crown Prosecution Service, there was a seventeenfold increase in criminal sanctions across the United Kingdom between 2002-03 and 2006-07. Those figures highlight the real concern that exists and the level of violence that we have seen in Welsh hospitals. All workers have the right to feel safe and secure at work, and there is a huge requirement for us to ensure that workers in our hospitals are not threatened with abuse or violent attack. We should not expect violence, patient outbursts, and the involvement of family members who might be getting to the end of their tether, to be a part of the job of being a nurse, a hospital porter, a doctor, or a consultant. They give their working lives in a vocation to care for the treatment of vulnerable people. They deserve not only our utmost respect and admiration, but protection and support too. Violence and aggression not only has a detrimental effect on the lives and careers of NHS staff, but it costs the NHS millions of pounds each year in training, security, legal costs and staff absences. These crimes—and that is exactly what they are—are costing all of us dearly. As a nation, we should not tolerate any attack on healthcare workers.

Mae’n ofnadwy bod staff y GIG yng Nghymru yn dioddef lefelau uchel o gam-drin geiriol a chorfforol o’r fath. Yn ôl Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron, bu cynnydd o 17 gwaith mewn sancsiynau troseddol ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig rhwng 2002-03 a 2006-07. Mae’r ffigurau hynny’n amlygu’r gwir bryder sy’n bodoli a lefel y trais yr ydym wedi’i weld yn ysbytai Cymru. Mae gan bob gweithiwr yr hawl i deimlo’n ddiogel a sicr yn y gweithle, ac mae’r angen yn enfawr i sicrhau nad yw gweithwyr yn ein hysbytai’n cael eu bygwth â chamdriniaeth neu ymosodiad treisgar. Ni ddylem ddisgwyl i drais, cleifion yn gadael i’w teimladau ffrwydro, ac ymgysylltu ag aelodau teuluoedd a allai fod ar ben eu tennyn, fod yn rhan o swydd nyrs, porthor ysbyty, meddyg neu ymgynghorydd. Cysegrant eu bywydau gwaith i alwedigaeth i ofalu am drin pobl agored i niwed. Maent yn haeddu nid yn unig ein parch a’n hedmygedd pennaf, ond amddiffyniad a chefnogaeth hefyd. Nid yn unig y mae trais ac ymddygiad ymosodol yn cael effaith niweidiol ar fywydau a gyrfaoedd staff y GIG, mae hefyd yn costio miliynau o bunnoedd i’r GIG bob blwyddyn mewn hyfforddiant, diogelwch, costau cyfreithiol ac absenoldebau staff. Mae’r troseddau hyn—a dyna’n union ydynt—yn costio’n ddrud i bob un ohonom. Fel cenedl, ni ddylem oddef unrhyw ymosodiad ar weithwyr iechyd.

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Over the last week, we have been examining the national unit in the Department of Health in London. The NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service has been championing the rights of NHS staff in England for some time, and the creation of a National Health Service legal protection unit has been a vital initiative. It was established in December 2003, and it works closely with the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, local authorities and health bodies to safeguard NHS staff and assets from violent and disruptive individuals. It does so by providing advice and assistance on a wide variety of issues and, in appropriate cases, commencing legal proceedings.

Dros yr wythnos diwethaf, buom yn archwilio’r uned genedlaethol yn yr Adran Iechyd yn Llundain. Mae Gwasanaeth Gwrth-dwyll a Rheoli Diogelwch y GIG wedi bod yn hyrwyddo hawliau staff y GIG yn Lloegr ers tro, ac mae creu uned amddiffyn gyfreithiol ar ran y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol wedi bod yn fenter hanfodol. Cafodd ei sefydlu ym mis Rhagfyr 2003, ac mae’n gweithio’n agos at yr heddlu, Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron, awdurdodau lleol a chyrff iechyd i amddiffyn staff y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol a’i asedau rhag unigolion treisgar ac aflonyddgar. Gwna hynny drwy roi cyngor a chymorth ar nifer eang o faterion ac, mewn achosion priodol, drwy ddechrau achosion cyfreithiol.

The legal protection unit has assisted health bodies with legal advice on issues such as withholding treatment, the most appropriate sanctions available for specific cases, the most appropriate redress available for specific cases, and legal advice in cases of physical and non-physical assault. Where appropriate, the legal protection unit in England, in conjunction with various health bodies, will prosecute individuals who have assaulted or abused NHS staff in cases that have not been progressed by the police or the Crown Prosecution Service, and it has successfully prosecuted—and this is the key point—a number of individuals who would otherwise have escaped justice.

Mae’r uned amddiffyn gyfreithiol wedi cynorthwyo cyrff iechyd gyda chyngor cyfreithiol megis peidio â rhoi triniaethau, y sancsiynau mwyaf priodol sydd ar gael ar gyfer achosion penodol, y ffyrdd mwyaf priodol o wneud iawn mewn achosion penodol, a chyngor cyfreithiol mewn achosion o ymosod corfforol ac anghorfforol. Pan fo’n briodol, bydd yr uned amddiffyn gyfreithiol yn Lloegr, ar y cyd â gwahanol gyrff iechyd, yn erlyn unigolion sydd wedi ymosod ar staff y GIG neu eu cam-drin mewn achosion nad yw’r heddlu na Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron wedi sicrhau cynnydd arnynt, ac y mae wedi erlyn yn llwyddiannus—a dyma’r pwynt allweddol—nifer o unigolion a fyddai fel arall wedi dianc rhag cyfiawnder.

Action can also be taken by the legal protection unit in the civil courts to obtain injunctions and advice, and assistance can be given to health bodies working with the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and local authorities to seek anti-social behaviour orders. I am concerned, Minister, as I am sure many of our colleagues will be, that workers within the Welsh National Health Service do not have access to the same level of legal protection and assistance and do not have the same opportunity to pursue cases against people who are violent and abuse staff in the NHS as those working in England. It sends the wrong signal to the people whom we wish to retain in the National Health Service and to those whom we wish to recruit to the NHS. That is something that you should

Gall yr uned amddiffyn gyfreithiol gymryd camau hefyd yn y llysoedd sifil i dderbyn gwaharddebau a chyngor, a gellir rhoi cymorth i gyrff iechyd sy’n gweithio gyda’r heddlu, Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron ac awdurdodau lleol wrth geisio gorchymyn ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol. Yr wyf yn pryderu, Weinidog, fel y bydd nifer o’n cyd-Aelodau yr wyf yn sicr, nad yw gweithwyr o fewn y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol yng Nghymru yn cael mynediad at yr un lefel o amddiffyniad cyfreithiol a chymorth ac nad ydynt, o’u gymharu â’r rhai sy’n gweithio yn Lloegr, yn cael yr un cyfle i fynd ar drywydd achosion yn erbyn pobl sy’n dreisgar ac yn cam-drin staff yn y GIG. Mae’n rhoi’r neges anghywir i’r rhai y dymunwn eu cadw yn y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol ac i’r rhai y

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consider when making recommendations and as part of the taskforce work that you and your colleagues are doing.

dymunwn eu recriwtio i’r GIG. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y dylech ei ystyried wrth wneud argymhellion ac fel rhan o waith y tasglu a wneir gennych chi a’ch cyd-Aelodau.

4.00 p.m.

There was also real concern, although it has now been addressed, that the Assembly Government’s opt-out of the Criminal Justice Bill showed a level of complacency about the protection of NHS staff in Wales. We raised that issue, along with Baroness Finlay of Llandaff, and I must pay credit to her for forcing the UK Government into reversing the position whereby Wales was left out of the provisions of the Bill. I am delighted that you, too, Minister, were vocal in saying that Wales ought to be part of the UK framework legislation.

Yr oedd pryder gwirioneddol hefyd, er ei fod bellach wedi’i ddatrys, bod penderfyniad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i eithrio o’r Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol yn dangos agwedd hunanfodlon ynghylch diogelu staff y GIG yng Nghymru. Codasom y mater hwnnw, ynghyd â’r Farwnes Finlay o Landaf, a rhaid imi ei chanmol am orfodi Llywodraeth y DU i wyrdroi’r sefyllfa lle yr oedd Cymru wedi’i heithrio o ddarpariaethau’r Mesur. Yr wyf yn falch iawn eich bod chithau, hefyd, Weinidog, yn uchel eich cloch gan ddweud y dylai Cymru fod yn rhan o ddeddfwriaeth fframwaith y DU.

I firmly believe that we have much to do to give further protection to staff in Wales. I fully accept that the Minister has already started looking at progress on this issue, with the ministerial taskforce, and the appointment of David Francis, former chief executive of Cwm Taf NHS Trust and a former deputy chief constable of South Wales Police. You are drawing on the right level of expertise and advice, Minister, and I am sure that that will point the Government in the right direction. However, one crucial difference between Wales and England is the involvement of the legal protection unit in England. We ought to be able to access that unit, or, at the very least, consider establishing a unit here in Wales. I do not believe that it is right for nurses working in Cardiff to have a lower level of protection and access to help and support than nurses working in Croydon.

Credaf yn gryf fod gennym lawer i’w wneud i ddiogelu staff yng Nghymru ymhellach. Derbyniaf yn llwyr fod y Gweinidog eisoes wedi dechrau edrych ar gynnydd ar y mater hwn, gyda’r tasglu gweinidogol, a drwy benodi David Francis, cyn brif weithredwr Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Cwm Taf a chyn ddirprwy brif gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru. Yr ydych yn defnyddio’r lefel gywir o arbenigedd a chyngor, Weinidog, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hynny’n tywys y Llywodraeth i’r cyfeiriad cywir. Fodd bynnag, un gwahaniaeth pwysig rhwng Cymru a Lloegr yw’r uned amddiffyniad cyfreithiol yn Lloegr. Dylem allu cael mynediad i’r uned honno, neu, o leiaf ystyried sefydlu uned yma yng Nghymru. Ni chredaf ei bod yn iawn i nyrsys sy’n gweithio yng Nghaerdydd gael llai o warchodaeth a llai o fynediad at help a chymorth na nyrsys sy’n gweithio yn Croydon.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I propose the following amendments in the name of Carwyn Jones. Amendment 1: in point 1 delete all after ‘and’ and replace with:

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Carwyn Jones. Gwelliant 1: ym mhwynt 1 dileu popeth ar ôl ‘GIG’ a rhoi yn ei le:

welcomes the Minister for Health and Social Services` commitment to the provision of full legal support to staff in such circumstances.

ac yn croesawu ymrwymiad y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i ddarparu cymorth cyfreithiol llawn i staff o dan amgylchiadau o’r fath.

Amendment 2: delete point 2 and replace Gwelliant 2: dileu pwynt 2 a rhoi yn ei le:

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with:

2. endorses the recommendation of the ministerial taskforce on violence and aggression that further research be conducted into effective assistance for staff in pursuing prosecutions when violence takes place.

2. yn cymeradwyo argymhelliad y tasglu gweinidogol ar drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol ynghylch gwneud mwy o ymchwil i gymorth effeithiol i staff wrth iddynt erlyn o ganlyniad i achosion o drais.

Jenny Randerson: I propose amendment 3 in the name of Kirsty Williams. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf welliant 3 yn enw Kirsty Williams. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to create a culture of safety and security within the NHS in order to reduce the number of incidents of violence occurring.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i greu diwylliant o ddiogelwch yn y GIG er mwyn lleihau nifer y digwyddiadau o drais a geir.

We agree with the points that the Conservatives made in their debate. However, we tabled this amendment because we believe that we must look more fundamentally at the causes of the problem. We need not only to prosecute people once a problem has occurred, but to change the culture within the organisation and how it operates to prevent incidents from happening in the first place.

Cytunwn â’r pwyntiau a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr yn eu dadl. Fodd bynnag, cyflwynasom y gwelliant hwn oherwydd credwn ei bod yn rhaid inni edrych yn fwy sylfaenol ar achosion yn broblem. Nid dim ond erlyn pobl ar ôl i broblem godi y mae angen inni ei wneud, ond newid diwylliant y sefydliad a sut y mae’n gweithredu i atal digwyddiadau yn y lle cyntaf.

Our NHS staff, who dedicate their lives to others, often working unpaid overtime, ought not to be rewarded by harassment and violence. A survey conducted in 2007 found that 18 per cent of NHS staff were harassed at work and almost a quarter of NHS staff have reported being victims of physical abuse at work. However, the key statistic is that only 67 per cent reported the incident.

Ni ddylai ein staff yn y GIG, sy’n cysegru’u bywydau i eraill, sy’n aml yn gweithio goramser heb gael eu talu, gael eu gwobrwyo gydag aflonyddwch a thrais. Canfu arolwg a gynhaliwyd yn 2007 yr aflonyddwyd ar 18 y cant o staff y GIG yn y gwaith a bod bron chwarter staff y GIG wedi cael eu cam-drin yn gorfforol yn y gwaith. Fodd bynnag, yr ystadegyn allweddol yw mai dim ond 67 y cant a gofnododd digwyddiad.

In Wales, the average number of attacks on NHS employees is around 20 per day. There were 8,746 cases of violence reported against Welsh NHS staff in 2007. That is one for each square mile of Welsh NHS soil. The key fact is that NHS staff are more likely to be attacked at work than to be involved in a road accident on the way to work, because there are more incidents of violence than there are road traffic accidents. That is an appalling situation, and while studies give us causes and statistics that we can use to monitor progress, what we need is action, because no amount of studies will bring about change. That is why we will not vote for the Labour

Yng Nghymru, cyfartaledd nifer yr ymosodiadau ar gyflogeion y GIG yw 20 ymosodiad y dydd. Cofnodwyd 8,746 o achosion o drais yn erbyn staff y GIG yng Nghymru yn 2007. Mae hynny’n un am bob milltir sgwâr o dir GIG Cymru. Y ffaith allweddol yw bod staff y GIG yn fwy tebygol o ddioddef ymosodiad yn y gwaith nag o fod mewn damwain ffordd ar y ffordd i’r gwaith, oherwydd mae mwy o ddigwyddiadau treisgar nag o ddamweiniau ffordd. Mae honno’n sefyllfa warthus, ac er bod astudiaethau’n rhoi achosion ac ystadegau inni y gallwn eu defnyddio i fonitro cynnydd, yr hyn y mae ei angen arnom yw camau,

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amendment, because we believe that although studies are useful, there needs to be a purpose in conducting a study.

oherwydd ni fydd unrhyw astudiaeth yn sicrhau newid. Dyna pam na fyddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid gwelliant y blaid Lafur, oherwydd er bod astudiaethau’n ddefnyddiol, credwn fod angen cynnal astudiaeth at ddiben.

You should conduct studies only to monitor progress, because violence does not wait while we monitor the statistics, and the causes of violence are largely an issue of speculation. The usual causes suggested are drugs, alcohol, inadequate services, overcrowding and what the staff call a ‘rights culture’. We can speculate forever on this, but the priority must be removing the burden of complaint from the individual doctor, nurse, or member of NHS staff. We want to ensure that violence against NHS staff is tackled, that prosecutions are sought and that there is a real deterrent to committing such acts in the future. We also need to drastically increase the rate of reporting up from 67 per cent, as well as the rate of prosecution. We have to have a systematic and comprehensive approach to prosecution and I believe that a national service unit could be an effective way of doing that.

Dim ond er mwyn monitro cynnydd y dylech gynnal astudiaethau, oherwydd nid yw trais yn aros tra byddwn yn monitro’r ystadegau, a materion y damcanieithir yn eu cylch yw achosion trais yn gyffredinol. Yr achosion arferol a awgrymir yw cyffuriau, alcohol, gwasanaethau annigonol, ysbytai gorlawn a’r hyn y mae’r staff yn ei alw’n ‘ddiwylliant hawliau’. Gallwn ddamcaniaethu am byth ynglŷn â hyn, ond rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i ddiddymu baich cwynion oddi ar feddyg neu nyrs unigol neu aelod unigol o staff y GIG. Yr ydym am sicrhau yr eir i’r afael â thrais yn erbyn staff y GIG, yr eir ar drywydd erlyniadau a bod mesurau ataliol gwirioneddol rhag cyflawni gweithredoedd o’r fath yn y dyfodol. Mae angen inni hefyd gynyddu’r gyfradd gofnodi yn sylweddol o 67 y cant, yn ogystal â’r gyfradd erlyn. Rhaid inni gael ymagwedd systematig a chynhwysfawr at erlyn a chredaf y gallai uned wasanaeth genedlaethol fod yn ffordd effeithiol o wneud hynny.

The measures that are in place clearly do not work—there is far too much variability from one trust to another. When you get down beneath the surface of this all-Wales statistic, there are worrying differences in the ways in which trusts deal with reported incidents and the number of incidents reported, which cannot be accounted for by the different sizes and demographics of the trusts. I hope that you will put this high up on the agenda of the new health bodies when they are formed. We have to have a more systematic, comprehensive approach to this in the new bodies.

Mae’n amlwg nad yw’r mesurau sydd ar waith yn gweithio—mae llawer gormod o amrywiaeth rhwng un ymddiriedolaeth a’r llall. Pan edrychwch o dan wyneb yr ystadegyn hwn ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, mae gwahaniaethau yn y ffordd y mae ymddiriedolaethau’n ymdrin â digwyddiadau a gofnodir, na ellir eu priodoli i wahanol feintiau a demograffeg yr ymddiriedolaethau, ac mae hynny’n destun pryder. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn rhoi hyn ar frig agenda’r cyrff iechyd newydd pan gânt eu sefydlu. Rhaid inni gael ymagwedd fwy systematig a chynhwysfawr at hyn yn y cyrff newydd.

It is not good enough for the Assembly to sit back and collect statistics while, year on year, the number of incidents rises and more and more staff are deterred from working for the NHS by the violence and abuse that they suffer every day. Verbal abuse, day in, day out, can be more difficult to deal with than the occasional incident of violence. It lowers morale, it makes your job unacceptable and it

Nid yw’n ddigon da i’r Cynulliad eistedd yn ôl a chasglu ystadegau tra mae nifer y digwyddiadau’n codi, o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, a thra mae mwy a mwy o staff yn cael eu hatal rhag gweithio i’r GIG oherwydd y trais a’r gamdriniaeth y maent yn eu dioddef bob dydd. Gall fod yn anos ymdrin â cham-drin geiriol, ddydd ar ôl dydd, nag ambell ddigwyddiad treisgar. Mae’n gostwng

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leads people to leave the NHS. We have to send out the message that we value NHS staff and I thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today to shed light on this important issue.

morâl, yn gwneud eich swydd yn annerbyniol ac yn peri i bobl adael y GIG. Rhaid inni gyfleu’r neges ein bod yn gwerthfawrogi staff y GIG a diolchaf i’r Ceidwadwyr am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw er mwyn bwrw goleuni ar y mater pwysig hwn.

Darren Millar: I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. The reasons why we have brought it forward have been ably articulated by my colleague, Jonathan Morgan. The level of attacks against NHS staff continues to be of serious concern and it is worrying that people in a profession that seeks to improve health and wellbeing find themselves increasingly subjected to situations that challenge their safety. I was saddened to read, in one report, the thoughts of a paramedic, who said, ‘I used to think of my uniform as a kind of protection; now, it’s a target’. It is very sad to hear statements such as that from NHS personnel. The number of violent incidents against NHS staff has far-reaching consequences that ultimately affect the level of service that is being offered to patients.

Darren Millar: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i gyfrannu tuag at y ddadl bwysig hon. Cafodd y rhesymau pam y’i cyflwynasom eu mynegi’n huawdl gan fy nghyd-Aelod, Jonathan Morgan. Mae nifer yr ymosodiadau yn erbyn staff y GIG yn parhau’n bryder difrifol ac mae’n bryder bod pobl mewn proffesiwn sy’n ceisio gwella iechyd a lles yn cael eu rhoi mewn sefyllfaoedd sy’n bygwth eu diogelwch. Fe’m tristawyd o ddarllen, mewn un adroddiad, sylwadau parafeddyg, a ddywedodd, ‘Arferwn ystyried fy lifrai fel math o amddiffyniad; bellach mae’n darged’. Mae’n drist iawn clywed datganiadau fel hynny gan bersonél y GIG. Mae nifer y digwyddiadau treisgar yn erbyn staff y GIG yn arwain at ganlyniadau pellgyrhaeddol sydd, yn y pen draw, yn effeithio ar lefel y gwasanaeth a gynigir i gleifion.

I had the privilege of visiting the accident-and-emergency department at my local hospital in Bodelwyddan, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, recently and it was inspiring to see, at first hand, the excellent work of staff and the dedication shown by them. Their ongoing care and commitment to everyone who came through the doors was tremendous. However, I was appalled to hear about some of the behaviour that staff have to put up with—violence, verbal abuse and intimidation are manifested far too frequently to front-line NHS staff, whether those staff are in GP practices or hospitals, or ambulance staff. You may be aware of an incident in Rhos-on-Sea in my constituency this time last year, which hit the national headlines: a paramedic was bitten through the arm by the person that she was trying to assist. That case was successfully prosecuted, I am happy to say, but, unfortunately, there are many other such incidents that are not. There were over 200 incidents involving ambulance staff, for example, in 2006-07 and I cannot think of many cases that ended in prosecution.

Cefais y fraint o ymweld ag adran damweiniau ac achosion brys fy ysbyty lleol ym Modelwyddan, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, yn ddiweddar ac yr oedd yn ysbrydoledig gweld, yn uniongyrchol, waith rhagorol y staff a’u hymroddiad. Yr oedd eu gofal a’u hymrwymiad i bawb a ddaeth drwy’r drysau yn wych. Fodd bynnag, cefais fy arswydo o glywed am yr ymddygiad y mae’n rhaid i staff ymdopi ag ef—mae trais, cam-drin geiriol a bygythiadau yn cael eu defnyddio lawer yn rhy aml tuag at staff rheng flaen y GIG, p’un a yw’r staff hynny mewn practisau meddygon teulu neu ysbytai, neu’n staff ambiwlans. Efallai y gwyddoch am ddigwyddiad yn Llandrillo-yn-Rhos yn fy etholaeth i yr adeg hon y llynedd, a fu yn y penawdau yn genedlaethol: brathwyd drwy fraich parafeddyg gan yr unigolyn yr oedd yn ceisio ei gynorthwyo. Cafwyd erlyniad llwyddiannus yn yr achos hwnnw, yr wyf yn falch o ddweud, ond, yn anffodus, mae nifer o ddigwyddiadau eraill na chânt eu herlyn yn llwyddiannus. Yr oedd dros 200 o ddigwyddiadau yn ymwneud â staff ambiwlans, er enghraifft, yn 2006-07 ac ni allaf feddwl am lawer o achosion a arweiniodd at erlyniad.

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That is why any solution to this problem will require a concerted effort across different agencies, departments and Government departments. The reason why I say that it should be across Government departments is because I am aware of another case in my constituency that is not NHS related—an incident took place involving a teacher on a school bus. The man was attacked by a pupil on a bus, in front of all of the other pupils, and despite the evidence—the case was watertight—the Crown Prosecution Service refused to take the matter to court. That is totally unacceptable. In my opinion, the Crown Prosecution Service should be eager to send out a clear message that violence towards any public sector worker will not be tolerated.

Dyna pam y bydd gofyn am ymdrech fawr ar draws gwahanol asiantaethau, adrannau ac adrannau’r Llywodraeth ar gyfer unrhyw ateb i’r broblem hon. Y rheswm y dywedaf y dylai fod ar draws adrannau’r Llywodraeth yw oherwydd fy mod yn ymwybodol o achos arall yn fy etholaeth i nad yw’n ymwneud â’r GIG—bu digwyddiad yn ymwneud ag athro ar fws ysgol. Ymosodwyd ar y dyn gan ddisgybl ar fws, gerbron yr holl ddisgyblion eraill, ac er gwaethaf y dystiolaeth—yr oedd yn achos nad oedd modd ei wrthbrofi—gwrthododd Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron fynd â’r achos gerbron y llys. Mae hynny’n gwbl annerbyniol. Yn fy marn i, dylai Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron fod yn awyddus i anfon neges glir na chaiff trais tuag at unrhyw weithiwr yn y sector cyhoeddus ei oddef.

4.10 p.m.

The problem that I find is that the perpetrators of this kind of crime think that they can get away with it and, unfortunately, they probably can, in most cases. The public perception is that the law is too often on the side of the criminal. It seems ridiculous, for example, that NHS workers have to pursue their own prosecutions and, due to the bureaucracy involved and the time commitment necessary to develop their cases, many attacks are simply not reported.

Y broblem fel y gwelaf i yw bod y rhai sy’n cyflawni’r math hwn o drosedd yn meddwl y gallant osgoi cael eu cosbi ac, yn anffodus, mae hynny fwy na thebyg yn wir, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion. Canfyddiad y cyhoedd yw bod y gyfraith ar ochr y troseddwr yn rhy aml. Mae’n ymddangos yn wallgof, er enghraifft, ei bod yn rhaid i weithwyr y GIG fynd ar drywydd eu herlyniadau eu hunain ac, oherwydd y fiwrocratiaeth a’r amser y mae ei angen er mwyn datblygu eu hachosion, ni chaiff llawer o ymosodiadau eu cofnodi.

A large proportion of the anti-social behaviour directed towards hard-working NHS staff comes from people fuelled by alcohol or drugs. We know that individuals that regularly misuse these sorts of substances are among those who repeatedly present for treatment at accident-and-emergency departments across Wales, sapping NHS resources that could be used for the benefit of others. I cannot help but feel that, if some of these contributory factors were dealt with properly—for example, we must think about the consequences of the relaxation in licensing laws a few years ago—then the increasing demand on services, the impact on the morale of NHS staff, and the consequent difficulties with recruitment, would stand a better chance of being resolved.

Daw cyfran fawr o’r ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol a dargedir tuag at staff ymroddedig y GIG o du pobl sydd wedi eu hysgogi gan alcohol neu gyffuriau. Gwyddom fod unigolion sy’n camddefnyddio’r mathau hyn o sylweddau’n rheolaidd ymysg y rhai sy’n cael eu trin droeon mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ledled Cymru, ac maent yn dreth ar adnoddau’r GIG y gellid eu defnyddio er budd eraill. Ni allaf ond teimlo, pe ymdriniwyd yn briodol â rhai o’r ffactorau cyfrannol hyn—er enghraifft, rhaid inni feddwl am ganlyniadau llacio cyfreithiau trwyddedu ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl—byddai mwy o obaith o ddatrys y cynnydd yn y galw am wasanaethau, yr effaith ar forâl staff y GIG, a’r anawsterau gyda recriwtio yn sgil hynny.

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I understand, Minister, that you agree with the general sentiment behind the motion today, which is that we need to protect NHS workers. Your statement in Plenary earlier this year acknowledged the importance of the issue, and that you are seeking to resolve it. We accept that the taskforce has been helpful in moving things forward, but we do not feel that it goes far enough. That is why we are asking for your support today, and the support of other Members, to establish a unit to ensure that NHS workers in Wales get the support that they need when they are subjected to these unacceptable attacks.

Deallaf, Weinidog, eich bod yn cytuno â’r syniad cyffredinol sy’n sail i’r cynnig hwn heddiw, sef bod angen inni ddiogelu gweithwyr y GIG. Yn eich datganiad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yn gynharach eleni cydnabuoch bwysigrwydd y mater, a’ch bod yn ceisio ei ddatrys. Derbyniwn fod y tasglu wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol o ran symud pethau ymlaen, ond ni theimlwn ei fod yn mynd yn ddigon pell. Dyna pam y gofynnwn am eich cefnogaeth heddiw, a chefnogaeth Aelodau eraill, i sefydlu uned i sicrhau bod gweithwyr y GIG yng Nghymru yn cael y cymorth y mae ei angen arnynt pan fyddant yn dioddef yr ymosodiadau annerbyniol hyn.

Joyce Watson: Last autumn, I visited all the major hospitals in my area to investigate this issue and to see what was happening on the ground. I spoke to staff and to chief executive officers. What I found disturbing was that there are 22 new cases of violence or aggressive behaviour reported by NHS workers every day in Wales. What I found on the ground was that NHS staff expected to be verbally or physically abused, and did not report it because they saw it as being in their line of duty. It is shocking that we have a culture among NHS staff now where that is the expectation, particularly among those working in accident-and-emergency departments.

Joyce Watson: Yr hydref diwethaf, ymwelais â phob un o’r prif ysbytai yn fy ardal i i ymchwilio i’r mater hwn ac i weld beth oedd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad. Siaradais â staff a phrif weithredwyr. Yr hyn a’m brawychodd oedd bod 22 o achosion newydd o drais neu ymddygiad ymosodol yn cael eu cofnodi gan weithwyr y GIG bob dydd yng Nghymru. Yr hyn a ganfûm ar lawr gwlad oedd bod staff y GIG yn disgwyl cael eu cam-drin yn eiriol neu’n gorfforol, ac nid oeddent yn cofnodi hynny oherwydd eu bod yn ystyried ei fod yn rhan o’u dyletswydd. Mae’n warthus bod gennym ddiwylliant ymysg staff y GIG yn awr lle y mae hynny’n ddisgwyliad, yn arbennig ymysg y rhai sy’n gweithio mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys.

Since those meetings, the task and finish group that the Minister established to look at violence against NHS staff has reported back with findings and recommendations. I look forward to the action that the Government takes in light of those recommendations. It is important that, as well as working to reduce the number of attacks on NHS staff—which are perpetrated by a deplorable minority—we also work to make NHS staff feel safe in their working environment.

Ers y cyfarfodydd hynny, mae’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen a sefydlwyd gan y Gweinidog i edrych ar drais yn erbyn staff y GIG wedi cyflwyno adroddiad sy’n cynnwys canfyddiadau ac argymhellion. Edrychaf ymlaen at y camau a gymer y Llywodraeth yng ngoleuni’r argymhellion hynny. Yn ogystal â gweithio i leihau nifer yr ymosodiadau ar staff y GIG—sy’n cael eu cyflawni gan y lleiafrif alaethus—mae’n bwysig ein bod hefyd yn gweithio i wneud i staff y GIG deimlo’n ddiogel yn eu hamgylchedd gwaith.

To create that we not only have to implement practical preventative measures—many of which have already been discussed by previous speakers, and outlined by the Minister—but also ensure that staff know that emotional support and legal support is

Er mwyn creu hynny, yn ogystal â rhoi mesurau ataliol ymarferol ar waith—y mae llawer ohonynt eisoes wedi cael eu trafod gan siaradwyr blaenorol, ac wedi cael eu hamlinellu gan y Gweinidog—rhaid inni hefyd sicrhau bod staff yn gwybod bod

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available to them. That extends from an increase in basic security measures—such as the number of police officers in hospitals, particularly in accident and emergency units, where staff are on the front line—to introducing more CCTV cameras in hospitals, and giving more guidance to staff on the measures introduced. Raising awareness of the support available not only helps to protect NHS staff, but also reinforces the fact that the public and politicians greatly value their work. We should always send out a clear message to NHS staff that they are valued and held in high regard, and that we will not tolerate any violence towards them. To create confidence among the workforce, we must strive to create a supportive culture where staff feel protected against violence and supported at work.

cymorth emosiynol a chyfreithiol ar gael iddynt. Mae hynny’n ymestyn o gynnydd mewn mesurau diogelwch sylfaenol—fel nifer swyddogion yr heddlu mewn ysbytai, yn arbennig mewn unedau damweiniau ac achosion brys, lle mae staff ar y rheng flaen—i gyflwyno rhagor o gamerâu teledu cylch cyfyng mewn ysbytai, a rhoi mwy o arweiniad i staff ar y mesurau a gyflwynwyd. Mae codi ymwybyddiaeth o’r cymorth sydd ar gael nid yn unig yn helpu i ddiogelu staff y GIG, mae hefyd yn atgyfnerthu’r ffaith bod y cyhoedd a gwleidyddion yn gwerthfawrogi eu gwaith yn fawr. Dylem anfon neges glir i staff y GIG bob amser eu bod yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi a’u bod yn uchel eu parch, ac na fyddwn yn goddef trais tuag atynt. Er mwyn creu hyder ymysg y gweithlu, rhaid inni anelu at greu diwylliant cefnogol lle mae staff yn teimlo eu bod yn cael ei diogelu rhag trais ac yn cael eu cefnogi yn y gwaith.

Mark Isherwood: The Assembly Government’s decision initially to pursue a Wales-only option for protecting NHS staff from violence was unacceptable. Baroness Finlay deserves all credit for forcing a u-turn that will include Wales in UK laws, giving NHS staff in Wales the same legal protection against violent attacks as colleagues in England. However, we must still be concerned at the levels of violence against NHS staff, and the consequences that this has for individual workers seeking justice.

Mark Isherwood: Yr oedd penderfyniad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddechrau i fynd ar drywydd opsiwn Cymru yn unig i amddiffyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol rhag trais yn annerbyniol. Mae’r Farwnes Finlay yn haeddu pob clod am orfodi tro pedol a fydd yn cynnwys Cymru yn neddfau’r DU, gan roi i staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru’r un amddiffyniad cyfreithiol rhag ymosodiadau treisgar â’u cydweithwyr yn Lloegr. Er hynny, rhaid inni fod yn bryderus o hyd am y lefelau trais yn erbyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, a’r canlyniadau a gaiff hyn ar weithwyr unigol sy’n ceisio cyfiawnder.

As we have heard, according to official figures, 22 cases of violence or aggression are reported every day throughout the Welsh health service. The British Medical Association Cymru reports that one in three doctors was a victim of violence last year. Nursing and other healthcare staff working alone in the community are particularly vulnerable. The Royal College of Nursing reported that a third of nurses working alone in the community have been assaulted or harassed in the last two years. A survey early this year of 69 NHS trusts and private hospitals in England and Wales found that more than half of nurses on mental health wards have been physically attacked. The Healthcare Commission and the Royal

Fel y clywsom, yn ôl ffigurau swyddogol, cofnodir 22 achos o drais neu ymddygiad ymosodol bob dydd ledled gwasanaeth iechyd Cymru. Mae Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain Cymru’n adrodd bod un o bob tri meddyg wedi dioddef trais yn ei erbyn y llynedd. Mae staff nyrsio a gweithwyr gofal iechyd eraill sy’n gweithio ar eu pen eu hunain yn y gymuned yn agored iawn i niwed. Adroddodd y Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol fod traean o’r nyrsys sy’n gweithio ar eu pen eu hunain yn y gymuned wedi dioddef ymosodiad neu wedi cael eu poeni yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Canfu arolwg yn gynnar eleni o 69 o ysbytai preifat ac ysbytai ymddiriedolaethau’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yr ymosodwyd yn gorfforol ar dros

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College of Psychiatrists report also stated that nurses working with older people are the most likely to be assaulted, and that patients had also been attacked.

hanner y nyrsys ar wardiau iechyd meddwl. Yr oedd adroddiad Coleg Brenhinol y Seiciatryddion a’r Comisiwn Gofal Iechyd hefyd yn nodi mai nyrsys sy’n gweithio gyda phobl hŷn yw’r mwyaf tebygol o ddioddef ymosodiad, ac yr ymosodwyd ar gleifion hefyd.

A new £3 million centre for frail elderly patients—many with dementia—has been opened in Cardiff, providing long-term care for up to 45 patients with acute mental health problems. This contrasts with uncertainty over the Bodnant unit for elderly mentally infirm patients in Llandudno. Following a 2006 review of services for older people with memory-related problems, the preferred option of the then Conwy and Denbighshire NHS Trust was the closure of the Bodnant unit, with the transfer of in-patient facilities to Tawelfan in Glan Clwyd Hospital and Bryn Hesketh in Colwyn Bay, as well as some investment in community services. For the second time in two years, the Mental Health Act Commission has declared the unit not fit for purpose. New, specialist, fit-for-purpose provision will help to protect NHS staff. However, the date of closure has been extended to the new year.

Mae canolfan newydd gwerth £3 miliwn i gleifion oedrannus bregus—llawer â dementia—wedi’i hagor yng Nghaerdydd, gan ddarparu gofal hirdymor i hyd at 45 o gleifion â phroblemau iechyd meddwl aciwt. Mae hyn yn gwrthgyferbynnu â’r ansicrwydd ynghylch uned Bodnant i gleifion oedrannus eiddil eu meddwl yn Llandudno. Yn dilyn adolygiad o’r gwasanaethau i bobl oedrannus yn 2006 gyda phroblemau’n gysylltiedig â’r cof, yr opsiwn a ffafriwyd gan Ymddiriedolaeth Conwy a Sir Ddinbych ar y pryd oedd cau uned Bodnant, gan drosglwyddo cleifion mewnol i Dawelfan yn Ysbyty Glan Clwyd a Bryn Hesketh ym Mae Colwyn, ynghyd â buddsoddi rhyw gymaint mewn gwasanaethau cymunedol. Am yr ail dro mewn dwy flynedd, mae’r Comisiwn Iechyd Meddwl wedi datgan nad yw’r uned yn addas at y pwrpas. Bydd darpariaeth newydd, arbenigol, addas at y pwrpas yn helpu i amddiffyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Er hynny, mae’r dyddiad cau wedi’i ymestyn i’r flwyddyn newydd.

The staff in Bodnant were either going to be redeployed to other hospitals, or to work with the elderly mentally infirm in the community. However, the review of mental health services recommended that Conwy needed to retain assessment and respite beds. While social services there welcome extra resources going into the community, they also recognise the need for assessment and respite care beds in the west of Conwy. To counter the risk of violence in mental health care, we need proper care for patients, alongside proper provision for staff. The Llandudno Hospital project board will now be asked to include a replacement unit for Bodnant in the re-development of that hospital. Let us hope that the board agrees to this; the Minister’s public support on this would be welcomed. Furthermore, if the staff from Bodnant are to be redeployed elsewhere, additional money must be guaranteed to staff the replacement unit.

Yr oedd y staff ym Modnant naill ai’n mynd i gael eu hadleoli mewn ysbytai eraill, neu weithio gyda chleifion oedrannus bregus yn y gymuned. Er hynny, argymhellodd yr adolygiad o wasanaethau iechyd meddwl fod ar Gonwy angen cadw gwelyau seibiant a gwelyau asesu. Er bod y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yno’n croesawu’r adnoddau ychwanegol a fyddai’n mynd i’r gymuned, maent hefyd yn cydnabod yr angen am welyau seibiant a gwelyau asesu yng ngorllewin Conwy. I wrthsefyll y risg o drais mewn gofal iechyd meddwl, mae arnom angen gofal priodol i gleifion, ochr yn ochr â darpariaeth briodol i staff. Gofynnir i fwrdd prosiect Ysbyty Llandudno yn awr gynnwys uned i ddisodli Bodnant wrth ailddatblygu’r ysbyty hwnnw. Gobeithiwn yn wir fod y bwrdd yn cytuno â hyn; byddai cefnogaeth gyhoeddus y Gweinidog i hyn yn cael ei groesawu. At hynny, os adleolir staff o Fodnant i rywle arall, rhaid i arian

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ychwanegol gael ei sicrhau i staffio’r uned ddisodli.

NHS staff are also increasingly vulnerable to attacks from patients who have been drinking to excess. As the chief constable of South Wales Police said:

Mae staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol hefyd yn gynyddol agored i ymosodiadau oddi wrth gleifion a fu’n yfed yn ormodol. Fel y dywedodd prif gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru:

‘The aftermath of binge drinking can be clearly seen during the early hours of any Saturday and Sunday morning in A&E waiting rooms across the country. When people drink to excess they are far more likely to be involved in an accident or assault.’

Mae canlyniad goryfed mewn pyliau i’w weld yn amlwg yn ystod oriau mân unrhyw fore Sadwrn neu fore Sul yn ystafelloedd aros adrannau damweiniau ac argyfyngau ledled y wlad. Pan mae pobl yn yfed yn ormodol maent yn llawer mwy tebygol o fod yn gysylltiedig â damwain neu ymosodiad.’

Despite claims by Professor Jonathan Shepherd that around-the-clock drinking has not led to an increase in alcohol-fuelled violence, research led by the Royal Gwent Hospital found that: the number of patients needing emergency treatment for alcohol-related injuries has risen by 20 per cent in 10 years; that hospital workload is ever greater, and spread throughout the night, putting greater pressure on already overstretched accident and emergency departments; and that alcohol-related assaults had increased from 47 per cent in 1997 to 84 per cent now.

Er gwaethaf honiadau gan yr Athro Jonathan Shepherd nad yw yfed o amgylch y cloc wedi arwain at gynnydd mewn trais a gaiff ei fegino gan alcohol, canfu ymchwil gan Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent fod: nifer y cleifion yr oedd arnynt angen triniaeth frys am anafiadau alcohol-gysylltiedig wedi cynyddu 20 y cant mewn 10 mlynedd; bod llwyth gwaith ysbytai yn fwy fyth, ac wedi’i ledaenu gydol y nos, gan roi mwy o bwysau ar adrannau damweiniau ac argyfyngau sydd eisoes wedi’u gorymestyn; a bod ymosodiadau alcohol-gysylltiedig wedi cynyddu o 47 y cant yn 1997 i 84 y cant yn awr.

As the Home Affairs Select Committee found, the biggest problem faced by police forces is violence and disorder caused by excessive drinking. Furthermore, increased psychological problems, ranging from post-traumatic stress disorder to alcohol misuse, have been identified among forces and ex-forces personnel. The symptomatic and addictive behaviour of the most vulnerable group of PTSD sufferers can be a threat to NHS staff. However, their complex needs have not been met within the limited provision contracted for by the Ministry of Defence.

Fel y canfu’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cartref, y broblem fwyaf a wyneba heddluoedd yw’r trais a’r anrhefn a achosir gan yfed gormodol. At hynny, gwelwyd problemau seicolegol cynyddol, yn amrywio o anhwylder straen wedi trawma i gamddefnyddio alcohol, ymysg personél a chyn-bersonél heddluoedd. Gall ymddygiad symptomatig a chaethiwus y grŵp mwyaf agored i niwed ymysg dioddefwyr anhwylder straen wedi trawma fod yn fygythiad i staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Er hynny, nis bodlonwyd eu hanghenion dyrys gyda’r ddarpariaeth gyfyngedig y contractiwyd ar ei chyfer gan y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn.

I will conclude by emphasising a key point. We must tackle the causes as well as the symptoms of violence against NHS staff.

Yr wyf am gloi drwy bwysleisio un pwynt allweddol. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag achosion trais yn erbyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn ogystal â’r symptomau.

4.20 p.m.

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Helen Mary Jones: I am pleased that we are debating this important issue today. The timing is appropriate, because we have been focusing, in several aspects of the Assembly’s work this week, on campaigning against violence against women. Many of the NHS staff who are targeted and who are most vulnerable to violence—Darren Millar said that a female paramedic ended up getting assaulted although there were probably several other paramedics in attendance—in front-line accident and emergency services and as health visitors and community nurses who visit people in their own homes, are women. This debate, therefore, is a timely contribution to the clear message that the Assembly has been sending this week: that violence of any kind against women at home, in the street, in the workplace—anywhere—is not to be tolerated. I congratulate some of our fellow AMs, Nerys Evans and Joyce Watson in particular, on bringing these issues to our attention this week.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn trafod y mater pwysig hwn heddiw. Mae’r amseru’n briodol, oherwydd y buom yn canolbwyntio, mewn llawer agwedd ar waith y Cynulliad yr wythnos hon, ar ymgyrchu yn erbyn trais yn erbyn menywod. Menywod yw llawer o staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a dargedir ac sydd fwyaf agored i drais—dywedodd Darren Millar yr ymosodwyd ar un parafeddyg benywaidd er bod nifer o barafeddygon eraill yn bresennol hefyd mae’n debygol—yng ngwasanaethau damweiniau ac argyfyngau’r rheng flaen ac fel ymwelwyr iechyd a nyrsys cymunedol sy’n ymweld â phobl yn eu cartrefi’u hunain. Mae’r ddadl hon, felly, yn gyfraniad amserol i’r neges glir y bu’r Cynulliad yn ei datgan yr wythnos hon: ni chaiff trais o unrhyw fath yn erbyn menywod gartref, yn y stryd, yn y gweithle—yn unrhyw le—ei oddef. Llongyfarchaf rai o’n cyd ACau, Nerys Evans a Joyce Watson yn benodol, am ddwyn y materion hyn at ein sylw’r wythnos hon.

We should all be pleased with the commitment that the Minister has shown on these issues. I know that her willingness to engage with front-line staff and to act to address the concerns that they identify is much appreciated. I hear this from nursing staff, particularly in my own constituency. It is wrong to suggest that there is any element, on the Government’s part, of sitting back, collecting statistics and waiting for things to change. I do not think that we could argue that that is our Minister’s approach to anything; it is certainly not her approach when she sees that staff are vulnerable. However, I am sure that she will agree that there is still a huge amount to be done to address this issue.

Dylem oll fod yn falch o’r ymrwymiad y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddangos i’r materion hyn. Gwn fod ei pharodrwydd i ymgysylltu â staff y rheng flaen a gweithredu i roi sylw i’r pryderon a welant yn cael ei lwyr werthfawrogi. Clywaf hyn oddi wrth staff nyrsio, yn enwedig yn fy etholaeth fy hun. Mae’n anghywir awgrymu y ceir unrhyw elfen, ar ran y Llywodraeth, o eistedd yn ôl, gan gasglu ystadegau ac aros i bethau newid. Ni chredaf y gallem ddadlau mai dyma ddull gweithredu ein Gweinidog o safbwynt unrhyw beth; yn sicr nid dyma’i dull gweithredu pan wêl fod staff yn agored i niwed. Er hynny, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd yn cytuno bod llawer iawn i’w wneud o hyd i roi sylw i’r mater hwn.

I do not want to reiterate the points that have already been made—we need more research to identify the most effective methods of ensuring that perpetrators are prosecuted—but there is much that needs to be done here and now. We need to continue to work to change the culture that others have mentioned that tolerates certain levels of abuse and violence. I am pleased to support Jenny Randerson’s amendment in this regard. It is still true that, in some health settings—not only health, but also in social work, and other contributors have mentioned other public

Nid wyf eisiau ailadrodd y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd eisoes—mae arnom angen rhagor o ymchwil i ganfod y dulliau mwyaf effeithiol o sicrhau yr erlynir drwgweithredwyr—ond mae llawer y mae angen ei wneud y funud hon. Mae angen inni barhau i weithio i newid y diwylliant y mae eraill wedi’i grybwyll sy’n goddef lefelau penodol o gamdriniaeth a thrais. Mae’n bleser gennyf gefnogi gwelliant Jenny Randerson i’r perwyl hwn. Mae’n wir o hyd, mewn rhai sefydliadau iechyd—nid yn unig ym maes iechyd, ond hefyd ym maes gwaith

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servants—it is almost taken as par for the course that you will be subject to a level of abuse that I think constitutes verbal violence in itself, but that will also create an environment where physical violence is more easily tolerated.

cymdeithasol, ac mae cyfranogwyr eraill wedi crybwyll gweision cyhoeddus eraill—y’i derbynnir fel rhan o’r gwaith bron y byddwch yn ddarostyngedig i lefel o gamdriniaeth ac mae hynny, yr wyf yn credu, yn gyfystyr â thrais geiriol ynddo’i hun, ond bydd hynny hefyd yn creu amgylchedd lle caiff trais corfforol ei oddef yn rhwyddach.

There is a real issue in terms of management culture in this regard. There is a tendency to feel that, if you work in this field, you should be able to put up with it. We have to change that. An opportunity is provided by the development of the new single health bodies to challenge that management culture and to create a new culture of zero tolerance to violence and aggression of any kind. I think that we must talk about violence and aggression, because, in my experience as a social worker, you were expected to put up with a certain amount of shouting and abuse, and although no-one would say that violence was alright, I would argue that where you tolerate the shouting and verbal abuse, you will end up being subject to violence.

Ceir problem wirioneddol o safbwynt diwylliant rheoli i’r perwyl hwn. Ceir tueddiad i deimlo, os ydych yn gweithio yn y maes hwn, y dylech fod yn gallu dygymod â hyn. Rhaid inni newid hynny. Ceir cyfle yn sgil datblygiad y cyrff iechyd sengl newydd i herio’r diwylliant rheoli hwnnw a chreu diwylliant newydd o ddim goddefgarwch tuag at drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol o unrhyw fath. Yr wyf yn credu ei bod yn rhaid inni siarad am drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol, oherwydd, yn fy mhrofiad i fel gweithiwr cymdeithasol, disgwyliwyd ichi ddygymod â rhyw gymaint o weiddi a chamdriniaeth, ac er na fyddai neb wedi dweud bod trais yn iawn, byddwn yn dadlau os ydych yn goddef y gweiddi a’r cam-drin geiriol, y byddwch chi yn y pendraw yn ddarostyngedig i drais.

We have the opportunity to change that culture and to create a proactive culture that puts keeping staff safe at the heart of managers’ responsibilities. It should go without saying that any manager’s first job, in any job, is to keep people safe so that they can do their work. However, sadly, we know that that is not always the case.

Mae’r cyfle gennym i newid y diwylliant hwnnw a chreu diwylliant rhagweithiol sy’n rhoi cadw staff yn ddiogel wrth wraidd cyfrifoldebau rheolwyr. Dylid bod yn afraid dweud mai swydd gyntaf unrhyw reolwr, mewn unrhyw swydd, yw cadw pobl yn ddiogel fel y gallant wneud eu gwaith. Er hynny, yn anffodus, gwyddom nad yw hynny bob amser yn wir.

I trust that the Minister will take this opportunity to put that new management culture in place and to take all opportunities to keep our NHS staff safe. I urge the Assembly to support amendments 1, 2 and 3 and the motion. In doing so, we will send a clear message to those who think that they can treat any of our public servants with disrespect, let alone with violence, that we will not tolerate that kind of conduct in our country.

Hyderaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn achub ar y cyfle hwn i sefydlu’r diwylliant rheoli newydd hwnnw ac achub ar bob cyfle i gadw staff ein gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn ddiogel. Anogaf y Cynulliad i gefnogi gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 a’r cynnig. Drwy wneud hynny, anfonwn neges glir at y rheini sy’n meddwl y gallant drin unrhyw rai o’n gweision cyhoeddus ag amarch, heb sôn am â thrais, na wnawn oddef y math hwnnw o ymddygiad yn ein gwlad.

Angela Burns: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate. All speakers have said what an important debate it is, which is why I am all the more puzzled by the Government’s amendments to

Angela Burns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i siarad yn y ddadl bwysig hon. Mae pob siaradwr wedi dweud dadl mor bwysig yw hon, a dyna pam mae gwelliannau’r Llywodraeth i’n cynnig yn fy ngwneud yn

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our motion. fwy syfrdan fyth.

We remain concerned, along with all Members, about the levels of violence in accident and emergency departments and throughout the entire hospital system. As Joyce said, workers in Welsh hospitals report an average of 22 daily incidents. I cannot believe that that is not worth repeating—that was 22 daily incidents. That is a huge and frightening statistic relating to verbal and/or physical abuse. That level of abuse costs the NHS around £6 million a year. That money—I am sure that everyone here would agree— could be spent in a far better way. In fact, why not spend it on the formation of a legal protection unit? I accept that, in the first few years, you would be paying out £6 million on abuse and forking out for the legal protection unit, but once it kicks in and the level of abuse against NHS staff drops, we will see a massive cost saving and much better use of £6 million.

Yr ydym yn pryderu o hyd, ochr yn ochr â’r holl Aelodau, am y lefelau trais mewn adrannau damweiniau ac argyfyngau ledled y system ysbytai gyfan. Fel y dywedodd Joyce, mae gweithwyr yn ysbytai Cymru’n adrodd am 22 o ddigwyddiadau dyddiol ar gyfartaledd. Ni allaf gredu nad yw hynny’n werth ei ailadrodd—22 o ddigwyddiadau dyddiol oedd hynny. Mae hwnnw’n ystadegyn anferthol a dychrynllyd yn ymwneud â chamdriniaeth eiriol a/neu gorfforol. Mae lefel y gamdriniaeth yn costio oddeutu £6 miliwn y flwyddyn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Gallai’r arian hwnnw—yr wyf yn sicr y byddai pawb yma’n cytuno—gael ei wario mewn modd llawer gwell. Yn wir, pam na chaiff ei wario ar ffurfio uned amddiffyniad cyfreithiol? Yr wyf yn derbyn y byddech, yn y blynyddoedd cyntaf, yn talu £6 miliwn ar gamdriniaeth ac yn talu am yr uned amddiffyniad cyfreithiol, ond unwaith iddi ddechrau gweithio ac i lefel y gamdriniaeth yn erbyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol gwympo, gwelwn arbedion cost aruthrol a byddai £6 miliwn yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n llawer mwy effeithiol.

The problems of vacancies in the Welsh NHS are well documented, and violence against staff must be a contributory factor. We believe that a highly motivated workforce is key to the delivery of a successful health service, and we suggest that potential workers would gain real comfort in knowing that, should anything untoward happen to them, the hospital and the Government would step in to prosecute the miscreants.

Mae cryn dystiolaeth i broblemau swyddi gwag yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru, ac mae’n rhaid bod trais yn erbyn staff yn ffactor cyfranogol. Credwn fod gweithlu llawn cymhelliant yn allweddol i gyflenwi gwasanaeth iechyd llwyddiannus, ac awgrymwn y byddai darpar weithwyr yn cael cysur gwirioneddol o wybod, petai unrhyw beth anffodus yn digwydd iddynt, y byddai’r ysbyty a’r Llywodraeth yn camu i mewn i erlyn y dihirod.

A Welsh legal protection unit would be a good step forward. Legislation is already in place that requires employers to exercise a duty of care and to provide and maintain a safe and healthy workplace. However, we could and should go further. We should invest time and money in training hospital staff in violent risk management. Helen Mary talked about the culture, as did Jenny, but we really need to consult with staff to ensure that all the measures that we want to propose are effective. We should show staff that we—society, Government, the public—will not blink in pursuing those who carry out acts of

Byddai uned amddiffyniad cyfreithiol i Gymru’n gam da ymlaen. Mae deddfwriaeth eisoes wedi’i sefydlu sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i weithwyr gyflawni dyletswydd gofal a darparu a chynnal gweithlu diogel ac iach. Er hynny, gallem fynd ymhellach a dylem wneud hynny. Dylem fuddsoddi amser ac arian yn hyfforddi staff ysbytai i reoli risg trais. Siaradodd Helen Mary am y diwylliant, fel y gwnaeth Jenny, ond mae gwir angen inni ymgynghori â staff i sicrhau bod yr holl fesurau y mae arnom eisiau eu cynnig yn effeithiol. Dylem ddangos i staff na fyddwn ni—y gymdeithas, y Llywodraeth, y cyhoedd

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physical or verbal abuse against NHS staff, and that we will pursue them legally and rightfully through the courts.

—yn diystyru mynd ar drywydd y rheini sy’n cyflawni camdriniaeth gorfforol neu eiriol yn erbyn staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ac y gwnawn eu herlyn yn gyfreithiol ac yn gyfiawn drwy’r llysoedd.

Having been attacked, members of staff neither want nor need the stress of trying to take on the perpetrator on their own. If we remember that an awful lot of these attacks are highly personal, you do not want to have to eyeball that person without an enormous support network behind you. We should look to other countries to see how they have effectively handled violence against staff working in their health services. While I do not advocate China’s response, which in some areas has posted armed police at local hospitals, we can at least learn from countries such as Australia, which have developed a raft of support measures to protect medical and ancillary staff. Jenny made a strong point—it is in the Liberal Democrats’ amendment—about creating a culture of safety.

Ar ôl dioddef ymosodiad, nid yw aelodau staff naill ai eisiau nac angen straen ceisio erlyn y drwgweithredwr ar eu pen eu hunain. Os cofiwn fod llawer iawn o’r ymosodiadau hyn yn bersonol iawn, nid ydych eisiau gorfod wynebu’r unigolyn hwnnw heb rwydwaith cymorth aruthrol y tu ôl ichi. Dylem droi at wledydd eraill i weld sut y maent wedi delio’n effeithiol â thrais yn erbyn staff sy’n gweithio yn eu gwasanaeth iechyd. Er nad wyf yn eiriol dros ymateb Tsieina, sydd mewn rhai ardaloedd wedi lleoli heddlu arfog mewn ysbytai lleol, gallwn o leiaf ddysgu oddi wrth wledydd megis Awstralia, sydd wedi llunio pentwr o fesurau cymorth i amddiffyn staff meddygol a staff ategol. Gwnaeth Jenny bwynt cadarn—mae yng ngwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—am greu diwylliant diogelwch.

Best practice around the world, and here in Wales, includes risk identification, assessment, and risk control, and we should have a well-publicised zero-tolerance policy, and a complaint mechanism to enable problems to be addressed in a non-violent manner. We need to look at the physical environment—waiting rooms can be places that raise people’s stress levels enormously, and we can be creative about we handle situations in waiting rooms. It can be as simple as making sure that the lighting is sufficient in the hospital and its surroundings, so that people just feel altogether safer. We should ensure that hospitals are locked down at night, with access through manned areas. We should offer an escort if people require one to collect their cars from dark car parking spaces—a nurse coming off shift at 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. would feel much safer walking to her car if she knew that she could call on someone. We should offer personal alarm systems, and we should deploy video surveillance where possible and appropriate.

Mae’r arferion gorau o amgylch y byd, ac yma yng Nghymru, yn cynnwys canfod risg, asesu, a rheoli risg, a dylid bod gennym bolisi dim goddefgarwch cwbl hysbys, ynghyd â pheirianwaith cwynion i alluogi i broblemau gael eu datrys yn ddi-drais. Mae arnom angen edrych ar yr amgylchedd ffisegol—gall ystafelloedd aros fod yn lleoedd sy’n cynyddu lefelau straen pobl yn aruthrol, a gallwn fod yn greadigol yn y modd y deliwn â sefyllfaoedd mewn ystafelloedd aros. Gall fod mor syml â sicrhau bod y goleuadau’n ddigonol yn yr ysbyty ac o’i amgylch, fel y bydd pobl at ei gilydd yn teimlo’n fwy diogel. Dylem sicrhau bod ysbytai’n cael eu cloi yn ystod y nos, gyda mynediad drwy fannau sydd â gofalwyr arnynt. Dylem gynnig hebryngwr os bydd ar bobl ei angen i gasglu eu ceir o feysydd parcio tywyll—byddai nyrs sy’n gorffen sifft am 4 a.m. neu 5 a.m. yn teimlo’n llawer mwy diogel yn cerdded at ei char pe gwyddai y gallai alw ar rywun. Dylem gynnig systemau larwm personol, a dylem osod gwyliadwriaeth fideo lle bynnag y bo hynny’n bosibl ac yn briodol.

Above all, though, we should ensure that all NHS staff should know that they will be

Yn anad dim, serch hynny, dylem sicrhau y dylai holl staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol

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protected at work and that, if they suffer abuse, the abuser will be taken to task. I do not understand why we cannot do that, Minister. The NHS is a massive organisation. I once worked for a small company, and when a member of our staff was abused when they went out to mend a computer, the company took legal action against the other firm and we won—well, we did not have to go to court as it was so ashamed of its employee that it coughed up. If a small company can do it for an employee, I do not see why the NHS cannot do it for its employees.

fod yn gwybod y cânt eu hamddiffyn yn y gwaith ac, os dioddefant gamdriniaeth, y caiff y sawl sy’n cam-drin ei ddwyn i gyfrif. Nid wyf yn deall pam na allwn wneud hynny, Weinidog. Mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn gorff anferthol. Gweithiais unwaith i gwmni bychan, a phan gafodd un aelod o’n staff ei gam-drin pan oedd allan yn atgyweirio cyfrifiadur, cymerodd y cwmni gamau cyfreithiol yn erbyn y cwmni arall ac enillom—wel, ni fu’n rhaid inni fynd i’r llys oherwydd bod ganddo gymaint o gywilydd o’i weithiwr ei fod wedi talu. Os gall un cwmni bychan wneud hynny i weithiwr, ni allaf weld pam na all y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol wneud hynny i’w weithwyr ef.

We should ensure that every member of the public understands that if they cross the line between being agitated or panicky or scared and being abusive or threatening, then they will be prosecuted. I have listened to a worthwhile organisation that helps patients to get redress from the NHS if things go wrong for them. Minister, where is the redress for NHS staff against the general public?

Dylem sicrhau bod pob aelod o’r cyhoedd yn deall os ydynt yn croesi’r llinell rhwng bod wedi cynhyrfu, neu wedi dychryn neu’n ofnus a bod yn ymosodol neu’n fygythiol, yna y cânt eu herlyn. Yr wyf wedi gwrando ar sefydliad gwerth chweil sy’n helpu cleifion i gael iawndal oddi wrth y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol os bydd pethau’n mynd o’u lle iddynt. Weinidog, ble y mae’r iawndal i staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn erbyn y cyhoedd?

Eleanor Burnham: I feel as passionate as others about this issue, because the amount of bullying and harassment is totally unacceptable. Sadly, nurses are among the most prone to violence. Apparently, 68 per cent of violent behaviour toward staff is by patients and service users, but 34 per cent of the violence is by patients’ relatives, which is equally horrifying. According to a recent NHS report, the violence is triggered by too much activity on the ward, a denial of services, overcrowding, inadequate facilities, negative staff attitudes, as well as the drugs and alcohol issues that were previously mentioned.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn teimlo mor angerddol ag eraill am y mater hwn, oherwydd bod yr holl fwlio a’r aflonyddu’n gwbl annerbyniol. Yn anffodus, mae nyrsys ymysg y rhai mwyaf agored i drais. Yn ôl pob golwg, cleifion a defnyddwyr gwasanaethau sy’n gyfrifol am 68 y cant o’r ymddygiad treisgar tuag at staff, ond perthnasau cleifion sy’n gyfrifol am 34 y cant o’r trais, ac mae hyn yr un mor ddychrynllyd. Yn ôl adroddiad diweddar gan y GIG, gormod o fynd a dod yn y ward, gwrthod gwasanaethau, gorlenwi, cyfleusterau annigonol, agweddau negyddol ymhlith staff, yn ogystal â’r problemau o ran cyffuriau ac alcohol a grybwyllwyd o’r blaen, sy’n ysgogi’r trais.

4.30 p.m.

However, there is another matter about verbal abuse experienced by NHS staff that I find equally horrifying. While 18 per cent of survey respondents reported harassment, an overwhelming amount of people reported that such verbal abuse was not carried out by

Fodd bynnag, mae mater arall sy’n ymwneud â cham-drin geiriol a brofir gan staff y GIG yr wyf yn ei gael yr un mor frawychus. Er i 18 y cant o’r rhai a ymatebodd i’r arolwg roi gwybod am aflonyddu, dywedodd nifer llethol o bobl nad oedd cam-drin geiriol o’r

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patients or people accompanying patients, but rather by colleagues. In 32 per cent of cases, it was carried out by the line manager and supervisor, which I find deplorable. This is completely unacceptable, and I can see the Minister, who is a warm and humane human being, making a note of that, so I hope that these horrifying issues will be put right. As many others have said, this is the time to find a meaningful solution, and I thank the Conservatives for allowing us the opportunity to discuss these highly sensitive but extremely important issues. Like others, I look forward to seeing what the Minister can do through the new boards, because a change in attitude is long overdue.

fath yn cael ei achosi gan gleifion neu bobl a oedd gyda chleifion, ond yn hytrach gan gydweithwyr. Mewn 32 y cant o’r achosion, fe’i hachoswyd gan y rheolwr llinell a’r goruchwyliwr, a gresynaf at hynny. Mae hyn yn gwbl annerbyniol, a gallaf weld bod y Gweinidog, sy’n berson cynnes a charedig, yn nodi hynny, felly yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y materion ofnadwy hyn yn cael eu hunioni. Fel y mae llawer un arall wedi dweud, hon yw’r adeg i ddod o hyd i ateb ystyrlon, a diolchaf i’r Ceidwadwyr am ganiatáu cyfle inni drafod y materion hyn, sy’n dra sensitif ond yn bwysig dros ben. Fel rhai eraill, edrychaf ymlaen at weld beth y gall y Gweinidog ei wneud drwy’r byrddau newydd, gan ei bod yn hen bryd cael newid agwedd.

Helen Mary mentioned healthcare staff in the community. I used to work in social services, and, even in those days, it could sometimes be pretty hairy going out. When you think about the efforts of social workers in Haringey, you wonder how much they might have been helped if the attitude in the home has been slightly more positive. However, I hope that the Minister and the Welsh Assembly Government will take this matter on board, because it is long overdue.

Soniodd Helen Mary am staff gofal iechyd yn y gymuned. Arferwn weithio mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, a, hyd yn oed yn y dyddiau hynny, gallai fod yn eithaf brawychus mynd allan. Pan ystyriwch ymdrechion gweithwyr cymdeithasol yn Haringey, byddwch yn meddwl tybed faint o gymorth a gawsent pe buasai’r agwedd meddwl yn y cartref ychydig yn fwy cadarnhaol. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ystyried y mater hwn, gan ei bod yn hen bryd gwneud hynny.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): We began to take on board these issues on violence and aggression against NHS staff a long time ago, Eleanor. In fact, as Minister, it was me who established the first taskforce, which has seen through the ongoing work. I have been pleased to enjoy cross-party support on tackling violence and aggression against staff, and I am pleased that we have had another opportunity today to debate this important issue.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Dechreuasom ystyried y materion hyn sy’n ymwneud â thrais ac ymddygiad ymosodol yn erbyn staff y GIG amser maith yn ôl, Eleanor. Mewn gwirionedd, myfi, fel Gweinidog, a sefydlodd y tasglu cyntaf, sydd wedi gofalu am y gwaith cyfredol. Yr wyf wedi bod yn falch o fwynhau cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar ddelio â thrais ac ymddygiad ymosodol yn erbyn staff, ac yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi cael cyfle arall heddiw i gael dadl ar y mater pwysig hwn.

We are talking about cultural norms that seem to apply in society in relation to violence and aggression. I was pleased to attend an event organised by Janice Gregory a few weeks ago on the issues that affect shop workers, including the violence and aggression that is aimed at that group of workers. I was very much taken by Darren

Yr ydym yn sôn am normau diwylliannol sy’n gyffredin mewn cymdeithas, i bob golwg, o ran trais ac ymddygiad ymosodol. Yr oeddwn yn falch o fod yn bresennol mewn digwyddiad a drefnwyd gan Janice Gregory ychydig wythnosau’n ôl ar y materion sy’n effeithio ar weithwyr mewn siopau, gan gynnwys y trais a’r ymddygiad ymosodol a

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Millar’s comments that this group of workers in the health service is only there to help and assist people, and yet look at the level of abuse that they must put up with.

anelir at y grŵp hwnnw o weithwyr. Hoffais yn fawr y sylwadau gan Darren Millar i’r perwyl mai unig amcan y grŵp hwn o weithwyr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yw helpu pobl, ac eto edrychwch ar lefel y cam-drin y mae’n rhaid iddynt ei goddef.

When I visited an accident-and-emergency department last week, I spoke to staff about violence and aggression, and a key point that they made was that they ignore some of the verbal abuse directed at them, and take it as the norm. They see it as part and parcel of their daily job to put up with it. That is totally unacceptable, and we must encourage staff to start reporting such verbal abuse. Think about all the families and friends who attend accident-and-emergency departments on a Friday and Saturday night with patients and congregate around them. They make staff feel increasingly vulnerable, and when a group of people is surrounding an individual, it also makes the working conditions very difficult for staff. We are also looking at the issues that ambulance staff have to face when working on the front line, and these are genuine issues for staff working within the NHS.

Pan ymwelais ag adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yr wythnos diwethaf, siaredais â staff am drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol, ac un pwynt allweddol a wnaethant oedd eu bod yn anwybyddu rhywfaint o’r cam-drin geiriol a anelir atynt, ac yn ei dderbyn fel norm. Maent yn ystyried bod ei anwybyddu’n rhan annatod o’u gwaith pob dydd. Mae hynny’n hollol annerbyniol, a rhaid inni annog staff i ddechrau rhoi gwybod am gam-drin geiriol o’r fath. Meddyliwch am yr holl deuluoedd a ffrindiau sy’n dod i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ar nos Wener a nos Sadwrn gyda chleifion ac yn ymgynnull o’u cwmpas. Maent yn gwneud i staff deimlo’n fwyfwy agored i niwed, a phan fydd grŵp o bobl o gwmpas unigolyn, mae hefyd yn gwneud yr amodau gweithio’n anodd iawn i staff. Yr ydym hefyd yn ystyried y problemau y mae’n rhaid i staff ambiwlansau eu hwynebu wrth weithio yn y rheng flaen, ac mae’r rhain yn broblemau go-iawn i staff sy’n gweithio yn y GIG.

We are developing a robust action plan to deal with some of the violence and aggression issues. My officials have worked closely with Chris Woolley from the Crown Prosecution Service in Wales and David Morris representing the Welsh Association of Chief Police Officers on developing memoranda of understanding to achieve the common purpose of effectively prosecuting those involved in violence. The memoranda will further promote effective co-operation between the four Welsh police forces in the prevention, detection and investigation of offences, and will sanction applications in respect of security matters in the NHS. Their successful implementation will result in the improvement of staff protection, the strengthening of the prosecution process by improving the quality of the information gathered, and the improvement of victim and witness care. How we protect victims as they go through the process is a key issue, as is how we protect witnesses, who may have been party to quite public scenes in the health

Yr ydym yn datblygu cynllun gweithredu cadarn i ddelio â rhai o’r materion sy’n ymwneud â thrais ac ymddygiad ymosodol. Mae fy swyddogion wedi cydweithio’n agos â Chris Woolley o Wasanaeth Erlyn y Goron yng Nghymru a David Morris sy’n cynrychioli Cymdeithas Prif Swyddogion Heddlu Cymru ar ddatblygu memoranda cyd-ddealltwriaeth i gyrraedd y nod cyffredin o erlyn y rheini sy’n gysylltiedig â thrais yn llwyddiannus. Bydd y memoranda’n hyrwyddo ymhellach y cydweithredu effeithiol rhwng y pedwar heddlu yng Nghymru wrth atal, darganfod ac ymchwilio i droseddau, a byddant yn caniatáu ceisiadau mewn cysylltiad â materion diogelwch yn y GIG. Drwy eu rhoi ar waith yn llwyddiannus, caiff staff eu diogelu’n well, cryfheir y broses erlyn drwy wella ansawdd y wybodaeth a gesglir, a bydd gwelliant yn y gofal am ddioddefwyr a thystion. Mae’r modd yr ydym yn diogelu dioddefwyr wrth iddynt fynd drwy’r broses yn fater allweddol, fel y mae’r modd yr ydym yn diogelu tystion, a allasai

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establishments. Both memoranda build on the good work developed by the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service in England, so we have taken good examples and best practice from there.

fod â rhan mewn digwyddiadau eithaf cyhoeddus yn y sefydliadau iechyd. Mae’r ddau femorandwm yn adeiladu ar sail y gwaith da a ddatblygwyd gan Wasanaeth Gwrth-dwyll a Rheoli Diogelwch y GIG yn Lloegr, felly yr ydym wedi cymryd esiamplau da a’r arferion gorau o’r fan honno.

My appointment of David Francis as the chair of Cwm Taf NHS Trust has been a good appointment, given his past history as deputy chief constable of South Wales Police. He has taken the lead on developing local violence and aggression champions to promote and lead on violence and aggression matters at board level. That will be the key to the success of delivering these memoranda.

Gwneuthum yn dda wrth benodi David Francis yn gadeirydd Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Cwm Taf, gan gofio ei hanes yn ddirprwy brif gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru. Mae wedi arwain ar ddatblygu eiriolwyr lleol ar drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol i hyrwyddo ac arwain ar faterion sy’n ymwneud â thrais ac ymddygiad ymosodol ar lefel y byrddau. Hynny fydd yr allwedd i lwyddiant wrth roi’r memoranda hyn ar waith.

Jenny Randerson, Helen Mary Jones and others referred to the new boards that will be formed. It is key that the boards recognise where their responsibilities lie within this arena, and it is an issue that I will have to reinforce with them. They have a duty of care to their employees, which involves managing incidents of violent aggression against staff, and ensuring that proper counselling and support is available.

Cyfeiriodd Jenny Randerson, Helen Mary Jones ac eraill at y byrddau newydd a gaiff eu ffurfio. Mae’n allweddol bod y byrddau’n cydnabod lle mae eu cyfrifoldebau yn y maes hwn, ac mae’n fater y bydd yn rhaid imi ei bwysleisio wrthynt. Maent dan ddyletswydd gofal tuag at eu gweithwyr, sy’n golygu rheoli digwyddiadau lle y ceir ymddygiad ymosodol treisiol yn erbyn staff, a sicrhau bod cymorth a chynghori priodol ar gael.

In bringing together and taking forward the taskforce’s recommendations, it is a national priority to improve and extend the use of closed-circuit television cameras within the NHS. We are looking at current safety provisions in four accident-and-emergency departments, each in one of the four police force areas, and at the allocation of resources. That will lead to us having good local models that we can use. We will also be trialling CCTV with the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust, by equipping a selection of ambulances with them and providing head cameras to staff. When you see ambulance staff being attacked while out on duty, you realise that that is how far we have to take it.

Wrth grynhoi a hyrwyddo argymhellion y tasglu, mae’n flaenoriaeth genedlaethol gwella ac ymestyn y modd y defnyddir camerâu teledu cylch caeedig o fewn y GIG. Yr ydym yn edrych ar y darpariaethau diogelwch presennol mewn pedair adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys, un ym mhob un o ardaloedd y pedwar heddlu, ac ar y dyrannu ar adnoddau. O ganlyniad i hynny, cawn fodelau lleol da y gallwn eu defnyddio. Byddwn hefyd yn treialu teledu cylch caeedig gydag Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gwasanaethau Ambiwlans Cymru, drwy gyfarparu nifer o’i hambiwlansau a darparu pen-gamerâu i staff. Pan welwch ymosod ar staff ambiwlans pan fyddant allan ar ddyletswydd, byddwch yn sylweddoli ei bod yn rhaid inni fynd mor bell â hynny.

Discussions are also under way on some of the issues around primary care, given that these attacks are not restricted to hospital environments and can also happen in primary care settings. People get agitated if they

Mae trafodaethau’n mynd ymlaen hefyd ar rai o’r materion sy’n ymwneud â gofal sylfaenol, gan nad yw’r ymosodiadau hyn yn gyfyngedig i amgylcheddau ysbytai a gallant ddigwydd mewn lleoliadau gofal sylfaenol.

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cannot see their GP, and receptionists must endure verbal abuse if patients are not happy with what they are being told. Therefore, these issues apply across the board.

Bydd pobl yn gwylltio os na allant weld eu meddyg teulu, a rhaid i staff derbynfeydd oddef cam-drin geiriol os nad yw cleifion yn fodlon ar yr hyn a ddywedir wrthynt. Felly, mae’r ystyriaethau hyn yn codi ym mhob man.

We also need a communication and media campaign about the importance of these issues, directed at NHS staff and the citizens of Wales. That work is proceeding well.

Mae arnom angen ymgyrch drwy hysbysebu a’r cyfryngau ynghylch pwysigrwydd y materion hyn, wedi’i chyfeirio at staff y GIG a dinasyddion Cymru. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw’n mynd ymlaen yn dda.

Turning to the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service, which is dedicated—

Gan droi at Wasanaeth Gwrth-dwyll a Rheoli Diogelwch y GIG, sydd wedi ymroi—

Jonathan Morgan: Staff in England have access to a unit within the Department of Health that allows them to pursue a prosecution even if the Crown Prosecution Service or the police are not too keen to do so. Everything that you have outlined is excellent. However, that is the fundamental difference between England and Wales.

Jonathan Morgan: Mae staff yn Lloegr yn cael mynediad at uned yn yr Adran Iechyd sy’n caniatáu iddynt gychwyn erlyniad hyd yn oed os nad yw Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron neu’r heddlu’n awyddus iawn i wneud hynny. Mae popeth yr ydych wedi’i ddisgrifio’n ardderchog. Fodd bynnag, dyna’r gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr.

Edwina Hart: Now that I have drawn breath, I will return to that topic, Jonathan.

Edwina Hart: Gan fy mod wedi cymryd fy ngwynt, dychwelaf at y pwnc hwnnw, Jonathan.

Staff in England have legal protection through the unit. However, I am reminded of the discussion that I had with the Counsel General on the fact that the criminal law system applies in England and Wales. The same legal protection is enjoyed by staff in England as by those in Wales. England has that legal protection unit, and, in Wales, Welsh Legal Health Services works with healthcare bodies, the police and the CPS on prosecutions, providing cost-effective advice on the sanctions available against individuals who are violent and verbally abusive. On behalf of the NHS body, it may lawfully pursue private criminal prosecutions and civil litigation in relation to assaults and abuse. That power stems from directions under the National Health Service Act 1977. That is the direction in which we are travelling in Wales.

Mae gan staff yn Lloegr amddiffyniad cyfreithiol drwy’r uned. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yn dwyn i gof y drafodaeth a gefais gyda’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol am y ffaith bod y system cyfraith droseddol yn gymwys yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mwynheir yr un amddiffyniad cyfreithiol gan staff yn Lloegr â’r rheini yng Nghymru. Mae gan Loegr yr uned amddiffyniad cyfreithiol honno, ac, yng Nghymru, mae Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol Iechyd Cymru yn cydweithio â chyrff gofal iechyd, yr heddlu a Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron ar erlyniadau, gan roi cyngor cost-effeithiol ar y sancsiynau sydd ar gael yn erbyn unigolion sy’n dreisgar ac yn cam-drin yn eiriol. Ar ran y corff GIG, mae’n gyfreithlon iddo gychwyn erlyniadau troseddol preifat ac achosion cyfraith sifil mewn cysylltiad ag ymosod a cham-drin. Mae’r pŵer hwnnw’n deillio o gyfarwyddiadau dan Ddeddf y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol 1977. I’r cyfeiriad hwnnw yr ydym yn mynd yng Nghymru.

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My ministerial advisory taskforce has made it clear that NHS employers should provide any support necessary to victims of attacks to encourage and enable them to participate as witnesses, which would help to secure prosecutions. They should also provide staff with free access to solicitors. We are doing what is necessary in Wales, but there will be further work to do. I will review how the violence and aggression taskforce is developing policy, and whether any further action needs to be taken.

Mae fy nhasglu cynghorol gweinidogol wedi egluro y dylai cyflogwyr y GIG ddarparu unrhyw gymorth sy’n angenrheidiol i rai sy’n dioddef ymosodiadau i’w cymell a’u galluogi i gymryd rhan fel tystion, gan y byddai hynny o gymorth i sicrhau erlyniadau. Dylent hefyd ddarparu mynediad am ddim i staff at gyfreithwyr. Yr ydym yn gwneud yr hyn y mae ei angen yng Nghymru, ond bydd mwy o waith i’w wneud. Byddaf yn adolygu’r modd y mae’r tasglu trais ac ymddygiad ymosodol yn datblygu polisi, ac a oes angen cymryd unrhyw gamau pellach.

To pick up on a few other points that have been made, we have to recognise that alcohol and drugs have a significant impact on some of the issues in the health service, and we are currently monitoring that. We also need to encourage people to say that they have been subjected to verbal abuse or attack. The importance of having proper reporting mechanisms has to be reinforced.

Gan fynd ar ôl ychydig o’r pwyntiau eraill sydd wedi’u gwneud, rhaid inni dderbyn bod alcohol a chyffuriau’n cael effaith sylweddol ar rai o’r materion sy’n codi yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac yr ydym yn monitro hynny ar hyn o bryd. Mae angen hefyd inni annog pobl i roi gwybod bod cam-drin geiriol neu ymosodiad wedi digwydd yn eu herbyn. Rhaid pwysleisio mor bwysig yw cael dulliau hysbysu priodol.

Some security issues also need to be dealt with. We have encouraged health organisations to assess the risks all the way through the process to ensure that the opportunity of attacks on staff is minimised, and I am thinking particularly of Angela’s point about car parks. A good employer should be doing that anyway. This is a vast agenda on which there is general consensus. As a Government, we will support the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 3, as it goes to the heart of the issue. It is about tackling some of the cultural issues that need changing. Therefore, I welcome this discussion today.

Mae angen delio hefyd â rhai materion sy’n ymwneud â diogelwch. Yr ydym wedi annog cyrff iechyd i asesu’r risgiau drwy gydol y broses i sicrhau bod y cyfle i ymosod ar staff yn cael ei leihau, ac yr wyf yn meddwl yn benodol am y pwynt a wnaeth Angela am feysydd parcio. Dylai cyflogwr da wneud hynny beth bynnag. Mae hon yn agenda anferth y mae consensws cyffredinol arni. Fel Llywodraeth, byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 3 y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, gan ei fod yn mynd at wraidd y mater. Mae’n ymwneud â delio â rhai o’r materion diwylliannol y mae angen eu newid. Felly, croesawaf y drafodaeth hon heddiw.

4.40 p.m.

There is more to do and I would be more than happy to keep the Assembly regularly updated on the issues that arise from the implementation. I am now looking at the issues for lone workers, and at issuing them with alarms. I am also costing further work on this agenda. Staff organisations are keen to see developments in this area and to keep the Government on its toes. These issues are always being discussed by them.

Mae rhagor i’w wneud a byddwn yn fodlon iawn rhoi gwybod yn rheolaidd i’r Cynulliad am y materion sy’n codi wrth roi hyn ar waith. Yr wyf yn edrych yn awr ar y materion sy’n berthnasol i weithwyr ar eu pen eu hunain, ac yn ystyried rhoi larymau iddynt. Yr wyf hefyd yn prisio gwaith pellach ar yr agenda hon. Mae cyrff staff yn awyddus i weld datblygiadau yn y maes hwn ac i gadw’r Llywodraeth yn effro. Byddant yn trafod y materion hyn o hyd.

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David Melding: We have had an excellent wide-ranging debate. I will go through some of the comments, because I think that some important issues have been raised. The exchange that we saw, towards the end, between the Minister and my colleague, Jonathan Morgan, was interesting, as it reflected the essential points that Jonathan had made in introducing this debate. We need a shift of culture in the NHS in Wales so that we do not leave it to individuals to be responsible for pursuing prosecutions; it should be the employer doing that. To ensure that we get that shift, we need some central resource, perhaps analogous to the English unit. I do not think that the Minister gave a clear response to that point, although I feel that perhaps she is open to persuasion. I hope that she will reflect on the nature of this afternoon’s debate and look at that essential issue carefully. It is one of the main things that has been called for, by the Royal College of Nursing, for instance.

David Melding: Yr ydym wedi cael dadl gynhwysfawr ragorol. Af drwy rai o’r sylwadau, oherwydd credaf fod rhai materion pwysig wedi’u codi. Yr oedd y ffeirio geiriau a welsom, tua’r diwedd, rhwng y Gweinidog a’m cyd-Aelod, Jonathan Morgan, yn ddiddorol, gan ei fod yn adlewyrchu’r pwyntiau hanfodol yr oedd Jonathan wedi’u gwneud wrth gyflwyno’r ddadl hon. Mae arnom angen newid diwylliannol yn y GIG yng Nghymru fel na fyddwn yn ei gadael i unigolion fod yn gyfrifol am gychwyn erlyniadau; y cyflogwr a ddylai wneud hynny. Er mwyn sicrhau y cawn y newid hwnnw, mae arnom angen rhyw adnodd canolog, yn cyfateb efallai i’r uned yn Lloegr. Nid wyf yn credu i’r Gweinidog ymateb yn glir i’r pwynt hwnnw, er fy mod yn teimlo ei bod efallai’n agored i’w darbwyllo. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn myfyrio ynghylch natur y ddadl y prynhawn yma ac yn ystyried y mater hanfodol hwnnw’n ofalus. Mae’n un o’r prif bethau y galwyd amdanynt, gan Goleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys, er enghraifft.

Jenny Randerson started by saying that we need a change of culture because an awful lot of abuse goes unreported and it is almost accepted as par for the course. That is the first fence that we need to get over, because if we have those sorts of barriers in our way, we will not be fully sensitive to the problem. I do not know where you got that statistic, Jenny, but you said that NHS staff are more likely to be attacked at work than involved in a road accident while driving to work. That is a pretty sobering thought. I thought that that was a vivid illustration of the problem that we are faced with.

Dechreuodd Jenny Randerson drwy ddweud bod arnom angen newid diwylliannol am fod llawer iawn o gam-drin yn digwydd heb roi gwybod amdano a’i fod yn cael ei dderbyn bron fel rhywbeth i’w ddisgwyl. Hwnnw yw’r rhwystr cyntaf y bydd angen inni ei drechu, oherwydd os byddwn yn wynebu rhwystrau o’r fath, ni fyddwn yn gwbl effro i’r broblem. Ni wn o ble y cawsoch yr ystadegyn hwnnw, Jenny, ond dywedasoch fod staff y GIG yn fwy tebygol o gael ymosodiad yn eu herbyn yn y gwaith nag o fod mewn damwain ar y ffordd wrth yrru i’r gwaith. Mae honno’n ystyriaeth ddifrifol. Credais fod hynny’n enghraifft fyw o’r broblem yr ydym yn ei hwynebu.

Jenny also said—and I think that it was a point that Helen Mary endorsed—that we need more research into why there is more violence. Some people even talked about the environmental issues that can cause people to get stressed and overreact if they are in a space that they are not used to. There are all sorts of issues at play, as well as the more traditional one of too much alcohol or drug abuse.

Dywedodd Jenny hefyd—a chredaf ei fod yn bwynt a ategwyd gan Helen Mary—fod arnom angen mwy o ymchwil i’r rheswm pam y mae mwy o drais. Soniodd rhai hyd yn oed am y materion amgylcheddol sy’n gallu achosi straen i bobl a pheri iddynt orymateb os ydynt mewn lle anghyfarwydd. Mae pob math o faterion yn berthnasol, yn ogystal â’r un mwy traddodiadol, sef gormod o alcohol neu gamddefnyddio cyffuriau.

Darren gave another vivid illustration of part Rhoddodd Darren enghraifft fyw arall o ran

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of the problem that we are faced with, which involved a health worker who had said that her uniform was now a target. How awful for a member of staff to feel that way. Staff should be proud to wear their uniform. It is the badge of a caring profession, but they now see it, at times, as a target.

o’r broblem yr ydym yn ei hwynebu, a oedd yn ymwneud â gweithiwr iechyd a oedd wedi dweud bod ei gwisg swyddogol bellach yn darged. Dyna ofnadwy bod aelod staff yn teimlo felly. Dylai staff fod yn falch o roi eu gwisg swyddogol amdanynt. Mae’n nod amgen ar broffesiwn sy’n gofalu, ond fe’i gwelant yn awr, ar brydiau, yn darged.

Darren mentioned the need for a multi-agency response and, in fairness, the Minister picked up on that point and talked about her work with chief constables. Darren also returned to the issue of alcohol and drugs, and mentioned the research that we need to do to determine the causes of the increase in violence seen. I am sure that that would be an important indicator of the difficulties that we face.

Soniodd Darren am yr angen am ymateb amlasiantaethol ac, er mwyn bod yn deg, aeth y Gweinidog ar ôl y pwynt hwnnw a sôn am ei gwaith gyda phrif gwnstabliaid. Gwnaeth Darren hefyd ddychwelyd at fater alcohol a chyffuriau, a sôn am yr ymchwil y mae angen inni ei gwneud i bennu achosion y cynnydd mewn trais a welir. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai hynny’n bwysig o ran dangos yr anawsterau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu.

Joyce Watson talked about the hospital visits that she has been undertaking, saying that she had raised the issue of violence against staff and had found their responses quite disturbing. I thought that Joyce made a very important contribution, looking at how we tolerate violence as part of the job and at the bad impact that that has in general but particularly in accident-and-emergency departments, where very stressful situations and unpredictable behaviour are often in evidence. Joyce talked about closed-circuit television as a possible deterrent or as a source of evidence if there is an unfortunate event. The Minister responded to that point, and I endorse what she said. It is important to use these devices.

Soniodd Joyce Watson am ei hymweliadau ag ysbytai, gan ddweud ei bod wedi codi’r mater o drais yn erbyn staff a bod eu hymatebion wedi peri cryn bryder iddi. Credais fod Joyce wedi gwneud cyfraniad pwysig iawn, gan edrych ar y modd yr ydym yn goddef trais fel rhan o’r gwaith ac ar ei effaith ddrwg yn gyffredinol ond yn enwedig mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys, lle y gwelir yn aml sefyllfaoedd llawn straen ac ymddygiad na ellir ei ragweld. Soniodd Joyce am deledu cylch caeedig fel atalfa bosibl neu fel ffynhonnell dystiolaeth os ceir digwyddiad anffodus. Ymatebodd y Gweinidog i’r pwynt hwnnw, a chymeradwyaf yr hyn a ddywedodd. Mae’n bwysig defnyddio’r dyfeisiadiau hyn.

Mark gave us some statistics. When you reflect on them, you see the nature of the problem in its full force. The British Medical Association estimates that one third of doctors have been victims of some form of harassment or violence in the past year, many in a primary care setting. This problem is not just seen in hospitals at 2 a.m. when people have had a skinful and are behaving in a loutish fashion.

Rhoddodd Mark rai ystadegau i ni. Pan fyfyriwch yn eu cylch, gwelwch natur y broblem yn berffaith glir. Mae Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn amcangyfrif bod un rhan o dair o feddygon wedi dioddef rhyw fath o aflonyddu neu drais yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, lawer ohonynt mewn lleoliad gofal sylfaenol. Nid yw’r broblem hon yn un sy’n gyfyngedig i ysbytai am 2 a.m. pan fydd pobl wedi meddwi a hwythau’n ymddwyn yn llabystaidd.

It is a much more general problem than that. You concentrated on people who work in the mental health sector and with the elderly mentally ill as being at a particularly high risk. Again, this requires from us great

Mae’n broblem fwy cyffredinol o lawer na hynny. Gwnaethoch ganolbwyntio ar bobl sy’n gweithio yn y sector iechyd meddwl a chyda’r henoed sâl eu meddwl fel rhai sy’n wynebu risg arbennig o uchel. Eto, mae hyn

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sensitivity and proper research so that we can put in place mechanisms to help patients and staff alike. I think that you said that something like half of all mental health nurses have been attacked; this is a real problem that they face.

yn galw am sensitifrwydd mawr gennym ac ymchwil priodol fel y gallwn sefydlu mecanweithiau i helpu cleifion a staff fel ei gilydd. Credaf ichi ddweud bod rhywbeth fel hanner yr holl nyrsys iechyd meddwl wedi dioddef ymosodiad; dyma broblem wirioneddol sy’n eu hwynebu.

Helen reminded us that many of the staff we are talking about are women. She referred to the work that has been done this week, which I think all Members have supported, on raising awareness of domestic violence against women. It is perhaps part of a pattern in society that there is a group of people who feel that you can act in a violent way, particularly towards women. This is utterly outrageous and needs to be rooted out.

Atgoffodd Helen ni mai menywod yw llawer o’r staff yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt. Cyfeiriodd at y gwaith sydd wedi’i wneud yr wythnos hon, y credaf fod yr Aelodau i gyd wedi’i gefnogi, i godi ymwybyddiaeth o drais yn y cartref yn erbyn menywod. Efallai ei fod yn rhan o batrwm mewn cymdeithas y ceir grŵp o bobl sy’n teimlo y gellir ymddwyn mewn ffordd dreisiol, yn enwedig tuag at fenywod. Mae hyn yn hollol warthus ac mae angen ei dynnu o’r gwraidd.

You raised the issue of community health staff who go out to people’s homes. Eleanor also picked up on this issue. They are potentially highly vulnerable. If you have had a bad experience, it will affect your confidence, and you will feel that that terrible incident may be repeated with every door that you knock on.

Codasoch fater staff iechyd cymunedol sy’n mynd allan i gartrefi pobl. Cyfeiriodd Eleanor at y mater hwn hefyd. Gallant deimlo’n fregus dros ben. Os ydych wedi cael profiad gwael, bydd yn effeithio ar eich hyder, a byddwch yn teimlo y gallai’r digwyddiad ofnadwy hwnnw gael ei ailadrodd bob tro y curwch ar ddrws.

Angela focused on the particular demands in accident and emergency departments, the effect on staff morale, and the probable link to high vacancy rates in certain jobs, as well as the need to offer staff proper training. I am afraid that, given that the job that NHS staff do is often highly predictable—dealing with people who, even if it is their own fault, are in a very stressed state—we must anticipate that there will occasionally be problems even in the best-run system that tries to support staff completely, ensuring that people are prosecuted if they are violent and so on. Therefore, training is important, and that point was well made.

Canolbwyntiodd Angela ar y gofynion arbennig mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys, yr effaith ar ysbryd staff, a’r cysylltiad tebygol â’r cyfraddau uchel o swyddi sy’n wag mewn rhai swyddi, yn ogystal â’r angen i gynnig hyfforddiant iawn i staff. Mae arnaf ofn, gan fod y gwaith a wna staff y GIG yn aml yn hawdd iawn ei ragfynegi—delio â phobl sydd, hyd yn oed os ei bai hwy eu hunain ydyw, mewn cyflwr o fod wedi cynhyrfu’n lân—bod rhaid inni ddisgwyl y ceir problemau weithiau, hyd yn oed yn y system orau sy’n ceisio cynnal y staff yn llwyr, gan sicrhau y caiff pobl eu herlyn os byddant yn dreisgar, ac ati. Felly, mae hyfforddiant yn bwysig, a gwnaethpwyd y pwynt hwnnw’n dda iawn.

Eleanor raised a very telling point about the fact that, in a significant minority of incidents, the perpetrator is a relative of a patient. That is something to consider carefully.

Cododd Eleanor bwynt arwyddocaol iawn am y ffaith fod y treisiwr, mewn lleiafrif sylweddol o ddigwyddiadau, yn berthynas i’r claf. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth i’w ystyried yn ofalus.

We have had a good debate. We do not agree with both of the Government’s amendments,

Yr ydym wedi cael dadl dda. Nid ydym yn cytuno â dau welliant y Llywodraeth, ond

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but the Minister said that she was pleased that tackling this issue has received all-party support. I think that we all believe that to be highly appropriate.

dywedodd y Gweinidog ei bod yn falch bod y pleidiau i gyd wedi cefnogi’r angen i fynd i’r afael â hyn. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn credu bod hynny’n briodol dros ben.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Are there any objections? I see that there are. In that case, I shall defer voting until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno â gwelliant 1. A oes gwrthwynebiadau? Gwelaf fod. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais tan yr amser pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan yr amser pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol CymruWelsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Adeiladau YsgolionSchool Buildings

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Carwyn Jones.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Carwyn Jones.

Kirsty Williams: I propose that Kirsty Williams: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes that poor school buildings have a detrimental effect on students’ learning;

1. yn nodi bod adeiladau ysgol gwael yn cael effaith andwyol ar allu myfyrwyr i ddysgu;

2. notes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that estimates the backlog in school building repairs is £749 million;

2. yn nodi adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers sy’n amcangyfrif bod yr ôl-groniad o waith atgyweirio adeiladau ysgol yn £749 miliwn;

3. notes that the investment the Welsh Assembly Government has already put into improving school buildings has made little impact on the overall backlog; and

3. yn nodi nad yw’r buddsoddiad y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i wneud eisoes i wella adeiladau ysgol wedi cael llawer o effaith ar yr ôl-groniad yn gyffredinol; ac

4. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to use a significant amount of the strategic capital investment framework to invest in school building improvements. (NDM4063)

4. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ddefnyddio rhan sylweddol o’r fframwaith buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol i fuddsoddi mewn gwelliannau i adeiladau ysgol. (NDM4063)

The quality of school buildings has been a major issue for the Assembly for many years. There cannot be a Member in the Chamber who has not championed the cause of at least one new build. Nor can there be one Member here who is satisfied with the state of the schools in his or her constituency or region. So important is the issue that, in 2003, it

Mae ansawdd adeiladau ysgolion wedi bod yn bwnc mawr i’r Cynulliad ers blynyddoedd lawer. Ni all fod Aelod yn y Siambr sydd heb siarad o blaid adeiladu o leiaf un ysgol newydd. Ac ni all fod un Aelod yma ychwaith sydd yn fodlon ar gyflwr yr ysgolion yn ei etholaeth neu ei ranbarth ef neu hi. Mor bwysig yw’r mater nes iddo, yn

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became a headline manifesto commitment of the Labour Party in the second Assembly election. It proudly proclaimed that, if elected, it would ensure that all school buildings in Wales would be fit for purpose by 2010.

2003, ddod yn un o brif ymrwymiadau maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur yn ail etholiad y Cynulliad. Cyhoeddodd yn dalog y byddai, pe câi ei hethol, yn sicrhau y byddai pob adeilad ysgol yng Nghymru yn addas i’r diben erbyn 2010.

I would applaud that commitment because a decent learning environment is crucial to securing good educational outcomes for our children. The recent Estyn reports have identified tangible benefits that come with improved school buildings in the form of improved teaching quality, improved exam results for individual students, and a better range of subjects that are able to be taught—which is particularly important with the introduction of schemes such as the foundation phase. Often, improved school buildings mean that the teaching can be delivered in a much more engaging manner. We must acknowledge that many of the buildings that our children are still taught in were built more than a century ago when teaching techniques were very different. I can think of a least one Victorian school in my constituency where the pupils cannot see out of the windows because the windows were built at such a level as to prevent that. At the time that the building was built, that was seen to be a desirable thing so as not to distract pupils’ attention from their lessons. However, I am sure that we would all agree that we would not want to see such architecture in modern school buildings. It has also been reported that improved buildings have an impact in terms of improving pupil behaviour, and good buildings can go beyond providing facilities in traditional school hours; buildings of that kind can provide important after-school facilities and more general facilities for the community at large. They are flexible spaces where schools can truly become part of community life.

Cymeradwyaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw oherwydd mae amgylchedd dysgu da yn hollbwysig i sicrhau canlyniadau addysgol da i’n plant. Mae adroddiadau diweddar Estyn wedi nodi manteision pendant a ddaw yn sgil gwell adeiladau ysgolion, a hynny ar ffurf gwell ansawdd addysgu, gwell canlyniadau arholiad i fyfyrwyr unigol, a gwell amrediad o bynciau y gellir eu dysgu—sy’n arbennig o bwysig yn sgil cyflwyno cynlluniau fel y cyfnod sylfaen. Yn aml, bydd gwell adeiladau ysgol yn golygu y gellir cyflwyno’r addysgu mewn ffordd lawer mwy deniadol. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod llawer o’r adeiladau y mae ein plant yn dal i gael eu haddysgu ynddynt wedi’u hadeiladu dros ganrif yn ôl pan oedd technegau addysgu’n wahanol iawn. Gallaf feddwl am o leiaf un ysgol Fictoraidd yn fy etholaeth i lle na all y disgyblion weld allan drwy’r ffenestri oherwydd yr adeiladwyd y ffenestri ar y cyfryw lefel fel ag i rwystro hynny. Ar adeg codi’r adeilad hwnnw, gwelid hynny’n beth da i’w wneud er mwyn peidio tynnu sylw’r disgyblion oddi wrth eu gwersi. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunai pawb ohonom na fyddem yn awyddus i weld pensaernïaeth o’r fath mewn adeiladau ysgolion modern. Adroddwyd hefyd fod gwella adeiladau’n cael effaith o ran gwella ymddygiad disgyblion, a gall adeiladau da fynd y tu hwnt i ddarparu cyfleusterau yn yr oriau ysgol traddodiadol; gall adeiladau o’r fath ddarparu cyfleusterau pwysig ar ôl ysgol a chyfleusterau mwy cyffredinol i’r gymuned i gyd. Maent yn lleoedd hyblyg lle gall ysgolion fynd yn rhan go iawn o fywyd y gymuned.

4.50 p.m.

I do not deny that the previous Government made significant levels of resources available to try to tackle this problem. However, even the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills, who has an unyielding optimism about everything that she tackles, must admit that the targets that

Nid wyf yn gwadu i’r Llywodraeth flaenorol ddarparu lefelau sylweddol o adnoddau i geisio mynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i hyd yn oed y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau, sy’n meddu ar optimistiaeth ddi-ildio ynghylch popeth y mae hi’n mynd i’r afael ag

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that Government set itself will not be met by 2010. At least that Government had a target to work towards and be scrutinised by. The One Wales Government gives no such commitments. It talks of a vague continuation of investment, but it gives no guide as to how much money it will spend or how many schools it intends to help, refurbish or repair, to whatever level and by when. In fact, the budget for school buildings in the Minister for education’s settlement is to remain stagnant for the next three years.

ef, gyfaddef na chyrhaeddir y targedau a osododd y Llywodraeth iddi’i hun erbyn 2010. O leiaf yr oedd gan y Llywodraeth honno darged i weithio tuag ato a chael ei chraffu yn ei erbyn. Nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn rhoi unrhyw ymrwymiadau o’r fath. Sonia am barhad niwlog mewn buddsoddiad, ond nid yw’n rhoi unrhyw amcan ynghylch faint o arian y gwnaiff ei wario na sawl ysgol y bwriada ei helpu i ailwampio neu atgyweirio, i ba lefel nac erbyn pa bryd. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r gyllideb ar gyfer adeiladau ysgolion yn setliad y Gweinidog addysg am aros yn llonydd am y tair blynedd nesaf.

The size of the challenge that we face is not getting smaller; it is getting larger. The recent PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which was commissioned to establish how much capital investment was needed to bring assets up to scratch in the period leading up to 2013, found that some £2.4 billion of investment was needed to get our school buildings up to scratch by 2010. If you compare that figure with the figure that has notionally been committed by the Government for school buildings, that leaves us with a staggering gap of £749 million that is needed on top of resources already identified if we are to ensure that all our children are taught in school buildings of the quality that I am sure we would all want to see.

Nid yw maint yr her yr ydym yn ei hwynebu’n mynd yn llai; mae’n mynd yn fwy. Canfu adroddiad diweddar PricewaterhouseCoopers, a gomisiynwyd i sefydlu faint o fuddsoddiad cyfalaf yr oedd ei angen i godi asedau i gyflwr derbyniol yn y cyfnod hyd at 2013, fod angen buddsoddi rhyw £2.4 biliwn i godi ein hadeiladau ysgolion i’r safon erbyn 2010. Os cymharwch y ffigur hwnnw â’r swm sydd wedi’i rwymo’n dybiannol gan y Llywodraeth ar gyfer adeiladau ysgolion, mae hynny’n ein gadael â bwlch syfrdanol o £749 miliwn y mae ei angen ar ben adnoddau sydd eisoes wedi’u nodi os ydym am sicrhau y caiff ein plant i gyd eu haddysgu mewn adeiladau ysgol o’r ansawdd yr wyf yn siŵr y byddem i gyd yn awyddus i’w weld.

That report also stresses the importance of using non-traditional sources of funding. I note that the One Wale’ Government does not rule out the use of non-traditional sources of funding in the education sector in the same way that it does for the NHS. That inconsistency does not bear much scrutiny, and I cannot understand it. Ruling it out for the NHS has a knock-on effect on our ability to rebuild schools in Wales, because ruling it out for the NHS means that the NHS becomes more reliant on Government money for its capital budget, hindering the Government’s ability to invest in our school buildings.

Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd defnyddio ffynonellau cyllid anhraddodiadol. Sylwaf nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un yn gwrthod y syniad o ddefnyddio ffynonellau cyllid anhraddodiadol yn yr un modd ag y gwna gyda’r GIG. Ni ddeil yr anghysondeb hwnnw mo’i archwilio ryw lawer, ac ni allaf ei ddeall. Mae gwrthod y posibilrwydd ar gyfer y GIG yn cael effaith ddilynol ar ein gallu i ailadeiladu ysgolion yng Nghymru, oherwydd mae ei wrthod ar gyfer y GIG yn golygu bod y GIG yn mynd yn fwy dibynnol ar arian y Llywodraeth am ei gyllideb cyfalaf, gan lesteirio gallu’r Llywodraeth i fuddsoddi yn ein hadeiladau ysgol.

One source of help will be the strategic capital investment fund that has been established, and some £400 million is sitting

Un ffynhonnell cymorth fydd y gronfa fuddsoddi cyfalaf strategol sydd wedi’i sefydlu, ac mae rhyw £400 miliwn yn eistedd

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in the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery’s coffers. I think that Andrew Davies needs to heed the advice of Alistair Darling and start spending. The money does no good sitting in his treasure chest. I admit that, in recent months, the Minister for education has seemingly been adept at persuading Andrew Davies to part with some of his cash, therefore, she should go back and knock on his door and ask him to speed up the process of releasing the money that he has into school building projects.

yng nghoffrau’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus. Yr wyf yn meddwl fod angen i Andrew Davies ystyried cyngor Alistair Darling a dechrau gwario. Nid yw’r arian yn gwneud dim lles yn eistedd yn ei gist drysor. Cyfaddefaf fod y Gweinidog addysg, mewn misoedd diweddar, wedi ymddangos yn hen law ar berswadio Andrew Davies i ildio rhywfaint o’i bres, felly, dylai fynd yn ôl a churo ar ei ddrws a gofyn iddo gyflymu’r broses o ryddhau’r arian sydd ganddo i brosiectau adeiladau ysgolion.

I anticipate that the Minister will get up and say that this is not her fault and blame the fact that our buildings are as they are on the inability of local government to get itself into some kind of order. The fact is that many of our local councils have programmes in place, but they need a commitment on capital to take them forward. No doubt the Minister will also say that any capital investment programme needs to be linked with school reorganisation, in other words, school closures in constituencies such as mine. However, if we are to convince communities in Brecon and Radnorshire to give up their much-loved village schools, we need to demonstrate that their children and communities will have something much better in return. The only way to do that is to give local authorities the resources to build schools that will convince parents that their child’s educational opportunities will be increased by moving to them.

Rhagwelaf y cwyd y Gweinidog a dweud nad ei bai hi yw hyn a beio’r ffaith fod ein hadeiladau fel y maent ar anallu llywodraeth leol i roi rhyw fath o drefn arni’i hun. Y ffaith yw bod rhaglenni wedi’u paratoi gan lawer o’n cynghorau lleol, ond mae arnynt angen ymrwymiad ar gyfalaf i’w symud ymlaen. Diau y dywed y Gweinidog hefyd fod angen i unrhyw raglen fuddsoddi cyfalaf fod yn gysylltiedig ag ad-drefnu ysgolion, sef, mewn geiriau eraill, cau ysgolion mewn etholaethau fel f’un i. Fodd bynnag, os ydym am ddarbwyllo cymunedau ym Mrycheiniog a Maesyfed i ildio’u hysgolion pentref hoff, mae angen inni ddangos y caiff eu plant a’u cymunedau rywbeth llawer gwell yn eu lle. Yr unig ffordd i wneud hynny yw drwy roi i awdurdodau lleol yr adnoddau i adeiladu ysgolion a wnaiff ddarbwyllo rhieni y caiff cyfleon addysgol eu plant eu gwella wrth symud iddynt.

All children in Wales deserve the opportunity to fulfil their potential and to make the most of the educational opportunities that are before them. All of our teaching staff deserve to work in buildings that are fit for purpose and aid rather than hinder them in doing their job. If we are serious about valuing our children and their education, we need to get to grips with this problem, which has dogged the Assembly since it was established here in Cardiff bay. Our children deserve better, and I hope that the Minister will take up the challenge with renewed vigour.

Mae pob plentyn yng Nghymru’n haeddu’r cyfle i gyflawni eu potensial a gwneud y mwyaf o’r cyfleon addysgol a ddaw ger eu bron. Mae ein hathrawon i gyd yn haeddu gweithio mewn adeiladau sy’n addas i’r diben ac yn gymorth yn hytrach na rhwystr iddynt wneud eu gwaith. Os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch rhoi gwerth ar ein plant a’u haddysg, mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, sydd wedi pwyso ar y Cynulliad ers ei sefydlu yma ym mae Caerdydd. Mae ein plant yn haeddu gwell, a gobeithio y gwnaiff y Gweinidog wynebu’r her gydag egni o’r newydd.

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): I propose the following

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw

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amendments in the name of Carwyn Jones. Amendment 1: delete point 3 and replace with:

Carwyn Jones. Gwelliant 1: dileu pwynt 3 a rhoi yn ei le:

notes the investment the Welsh Assembly Government has already put into improving school buildings.

yn nodi’r buddsoddiad y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i wneud eisoes i wella adeiladau ysgol.

Amendment 2: insert as a new point 4 and renumber accordingly:

Gwelliant 2: cynnwys fel pwynt 4 newydd ac ailrifo fel y bo’n briodol:

endorses the ‘One Wales’ commitment to a continued major capital investment programme to upgrade school buildings, exceeding the sums provided over the previous Assembly term.

yn cefnogi ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i barhau â rhaglen fuddsoddi ar waith cyfalaf mawr er mwyn gwella adeiladau ysgolion gan neilltuo symiau uwchlaw’r hyn a ddarparwyd yn ystod tymor blaenorol y Cynulliad.

Amendment 3: in point 4 delete ‘use a’ and replace with ‘consider the use of a’.

Gwelliant3: ym mhwynt 4 dileu ‘ddefnyddio’ a rhoi yn ei le ‘ystyried defnyddio’.

Daeth William Graham i’r Gadair am 4.56 p.m.William Graham took the Chair at 4.56 p.m.

Alun Davies: It is appropriate that we are having this debate this afternoon. On Friday, I will be in Narberth with the First Minister at the opening of the new primary school in that town. The children have been using the school in Narberth since the summer. Anyone who knows the town will understand the difference that that new school is making not only to their experience of school, but to their entire educational experience.

Alun Davies: Mae’n briodol ein bod yn cael y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma. Ddydd Gwener, byddaf yn Arberth gyda’r Prif Weinidog ar gyfer agoriad yr ysgol gynradd newydd yn y dref honno. Mae’r plant wedi bod yn defnyddio’r ysgol yn Arberth ers yr haf. Bydd unrhyw un sy’n adnabod y dref yn deall y gwahaniaeth y mae’r ysgol newydd honno’n ei wneud nid yn unig i’w profiad o’r ysgol, ond i’w holl brofiad addysgol.

The Government’s commitment to increasing spend on the school building programme will provide more children than ever with the opportunity to learn in more comfortable surroundings. If you doubt that, as well as going to Narberth, you should go to the Amman valley to see Ysgol y Bedol, or to Crymych to see Ysgol y Frenni. We all know that not a single parent in any of those places would choose to go back to the old schools, the old buildings, or the old ways. We all know the benefits that children are seeing from improved school buildings, and we all know the impact that continued investment has had. We remember that, under the last Conservative Government, £237 million was spent on the school estate across the whole of Wales, and that should be compared with the £168 million that was spent in a single year under this Government.

Bydd ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i gynyddu gwariant ar y rhaglen adeiladu ysgolion yn rhoi’r cyfle i fwy o blant nag erioed i ddysgu mewn amgylchedd mwy cyfforddus. Os ydych yn amau hynny, yn ogystal â mynd i Arberth, dylech fynd i ddyffryn Aman i weld Ysgol y Bedol, neu i Grymych i weld Ysgol y Frenni. Gŵyr pawb ohonom na fyddai’r un rhiant yn unrhyw un o’r lleoedd hynny’n dewis mynd yn ôl i’r hen ysgolion, yr hen adeiladau, na’r hen ffyrdd. Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod pa fuddiannau y mae’r plant yn eu cael o well adeiladau ysgolion, ac yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod pa effaith y mae buddsoddiad parhaus wedi’i chael. Cofiwn, dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf, y gwariwyd £237 miliwn ar y stad ysgolion ar draws Cymru gyfan, a dylid cymharu hynny â’r £168 miliwn a wariwyd mewn un flwyddyn dan y Llywodraeth hon.

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Budgets are the language of priorities. This Government has invested more money than has been invested at any time in history in the school estate and school buildings. Before they stand up in the Chamber to criticise the Government for its spending on schools, Conservative Members should read the figures and look back at the history and at the amount of money that the Conservatives put into school funding when they had the opportunity while in Government. They spent a total of £54 million during their last year in Government; we spent £168 million in one year. That is three times the figure in a single year. The children of Wales are benefiting from that and will continue to do so in the future.

Iaith blaenoriaethau yw cyllidebau. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi buddsoddi mwy o arian nag a fuddsoddwyd ar unrhyw adeg mewn hanes yn y stad ysgolion ac mewn adeiladau ysgolion. Cyn sefyll yn y Siambr i feirniadu’r Llywodraeth am ei gwariant ar ysgolion, dylai Aelodau Ceidwadol ddarllen y ffigurau ac edrych yn ôl ar hanes ac ar y swm o arian a roddodd y Ceidwadwyr i mewn i gyllid ysgolion pan oedd y cyfle ganddynt a hwythau mewn Llywodraeth. Gwariasant gyfanswm o £54 miliwn yn ystod eu blwyddyn olaf mewn Llywodraeth; gwariasom ninnau £168 miliwn mewn un flwyddyn. Mae hynny’n dair gwaith y ffigur mewn un flwyddyn. Mae plant Cymru’n cael budd o hynny a byddant yn parhau i wneud yn y dyfodol.

I agree with much of what Kirsty Williams said in her opening speech about the benefits of having not just decent, but excellent buildings for the educational and learning experience of children. However, Kirsty did not say that the greatest impact is on the poorest children, those from the most deprived backgrounds. It is little wonder that the Tories spent so little; they simply do not care. That is why we are spending so much. We have to ensure that we continue to invest capital in schools to ensure that our children have a world-class education.

Cytunaf â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd Kirsty Williams yn ei haraith agoriadol ynghylch manteision cael adeiladau sydd nid yn unig yn dda, ond yn rhagorol, ar gyfer profiad addysgol a phrofiad dysgu plant. Fodd bynnag, ni ddywedodd Kirsty mai ar y plant tlotaf, y rhai o’r cefndiroedd mwyaf difreintiedig, y ceir yr effaith fwyaf. Nid oes ryfedd i’r Torïaid wario cyn lleied; yn syml, nid oes ots ganddynt. Dyna pam yr ydym ni’n gwario cymaint. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau y parhawn i fuddsoddi cyfalaf mewn ysgolion i sicrhau y caiff ein plant addysg o safon fyd-eang.

I agree with much of what has been said about the difficult choices that have to be made about where this money is invested and how the configuration of primary education will change in the future. We have to show leadership in those communities and demonstrate that we will argue the case for new investment in new sites where that will provide the best educational opportunity for the children there.

Cytunaf â llawer o’r hyn sydd wedi’i ddweud am y dewisiadau anodd y mae’n rhaid eu gwneud ynghylch ble i fuddsoddi’r arian hwn a sut y bydd patrwm addysg gynradd yn newid yn y dyfodol. Rhaid inni ddangos arweiniad yn y cymunedau hynny a dangos y gwnawn ddadlau’r achos dros fuddsoddi newydd mewn safleoedd newydd lle bydd hynny’n darparu’r cyfle addysgol gorau i’r plant yno.

Tomorrow, the Rural Development Sub-committee will hopefully publish a report on the future of small schools, which will demonstrate clearly the impact that new investment will have, has had, and will continue to have on the educational experience of children across Wales. One of the things that struck me while we were taking evidence for the report was the impact

Yfory, bydd yr Is-bwyllgor Datblygu Gwledig, gobeithio, yn cyhoeddi adroddiad ar ddyfodol ysgolion bach, a fydd yn dangos yn glir yr effaith y mae buddsoddi newydd wedi’i chael, ac y bydd yn parhau i’w chael, ar brofiad addysgol plant ledled Cymru. Un o’r pethau a’m trawodd pan oeddem yn derbyn tystiolaeth ar gyfer yr adroddiad oedd yr effaith a gâi cyflwr yr adeiladau ysgol ar

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of the condition of the school buildings on the educational experience of children and their ability to concentrate in class. That improves when they are no longer cold or walking around with buckets to catch water from leaking roofs.

brofiad addysgol plant a’u gallu i ganolbwyntio yn y dosbarth. Mae hynny’n gwella pan nad ydynt mwyach yn oer nac yn cerdded o gwmpas gyda bwcedi i ddal dŵr o doeau sy’n gollwng.

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That was the reality for too many children when the Conservatives governed this country. It is clear that when people have a choice, they will vote for the people and parties that can deliver this level of funding.

Dyna oedd y realiti i ormod o blant pan oedd y Ceidwadwyr yn llywodraethu’r wlad hon. Mae’n amlwg, pan fydd gan bobl ddewis, y byddant yn pleidleisio i’r bobl a’r pleidiau a all ddarparu’r lefel hon o gyllid.

In conclusion, I will echo some of what Kirsty mentioned in her speech about sources of funding and how we lever in investment, because we need to look for greater sources of investment and for greater investment in schools. The Finance Committee visited Sweden last week, and we saw for ourselves that there are different ways of levering funding into education and other public services. We will, I hope, publish a report after Christmas on how we can look for new, innovative and creative ways of funding public services. The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government and Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills are in the Chamber this afternoon, and I hope that the report will help them to look more creatively for additional sources of funding to ensure that the strategic capital investment fund that the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery has created can deliver the very best for Wales’s children.

I gloi, adleisiaf rywfaint o’r hyn a grybwyllodd Kirsty yn ei haraith am ffynonellau cyllid a sut mae ysgogi buddsoddiad, oherwydd mae angen inni chwilio am fwy o ffynonellau buddsoddi a mwy o fuddsoddiad mewn ysgolion. Ymwelodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid â Sweden yr wythnos diwethaf, a gwelsom drosom ein hunain fod ffyrdd gwahanol o ysgogi buddsoddiad mewn addysg a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill. Byddwn, gobeithiaf, yn cyhoeddi adroddiad ar ôl y Nadolig ar sut y gallwn chwilio am ffyrdd newydd, arloesol a chreadigol o gyllido gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol a’r Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma, a gobeithiaf y bydd yr adroddiad yn help iddynt i chwilio’n fwy creadigol am ffynonellau cyllid ychwanegol i sicrhau y bydd y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol y mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus wedi’i chreu yn gallu darparu’r gorau i blant Cymru.

Michael German: First, I thank Alun for his anti-Conservative party-political broadcast, but remind him that this is a Welsh Liberal Democrat debate. He may have missed that point.

Michael German: Yn gyntaf, diolchaf i Alun am ei ddarllediad gwleidyddol gwrth-Geidwadol, ond atgoffaf ef mai dadl gan Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yw hon. Efallai ei fod wedi methu’r pwynt hwnnw.

We are dealing with the here and now, and perhaps this debate ought to be titled the ‘mind the gap’ debate. Minding the gap is particularly important in education, in many respects. We now have a growing funding gap between Wales and England in higher education, which Plaid Cymru used to moan about consistently up until last year. We have

Yr ydym yn delio â’r sefyllfa sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd, ac efallai y dylid bod wedi enwi’r ddadl hon yn ‘gwyliwch y bwlch’. Mae gwylio’r bwlch yn neilltuol o bwysig ym maes addysg, mewn llawer o ffyrdd. Erbyn hyn mae gennym fwlch cyllido cynyddol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr mewn addysg uwch, yr arferai Plaid Cymru gwyno’n gyson

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a growing funding gap between Wales and England in further education and a growing funding gap between Wales and England in per pupil spend. In relation to school buildings, we have a gap between what was promised some years ago by the previous Government, which was to have school buildings fit for purpose by 2010, and where we are today. We need to address that issue. I agree with every word that Alun said about what a good, new school can provide. I want to see Narberth for all, not Narberth for some. It is so important that every pupil in Wales—and in Britain, but we are talking about Wales today—is given the opportunity of having a school building that is fit for purpose. That is what your party promised us, and that is what the issue is here today: the gap between that promise and the reality today.

amdano tan y llynedd. Mae gennym fwlch cyllido cynyddol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr mewn addysg bellach a bwlch cyllido cynyddol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr o ran y gwariant fesul disgybl. O safbwynt adeiladau ysgolion, mae gennym fwlch rhwng yr hyn a addawyd rai blynyddoedd yn ôl gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol, sef cael adeiladau addas i’w diben erbyn 2010, a’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi heddiw. Mae angen inni roi sylw i hynny. Cytunaf â phob gair a ddywedodd Alun am yr hyn y gall ysgol newydd, dda ei ddarparu. Yr wyf am gael Arberth i bawb, nid Arberth i rai. Mae mor bwysig fod pob disgybl yng Nghymru—ac ym Mhrydain, ond yr ydym yn siarad am Gymru heddiw—yn cael y cyfle i gael adeilad ysgol sy’n addas i’r diben. Dyna a addawodd eich plaid inni a dyna’r mater dan sylw yma heddiw: y bwlch rhwng yr addewid hwnnw a’r realiti heddiw.

We cannot support the Government’s amendments. Amendment 1 asks us to note the Government’s spend to date, which was already mentioned in our motion, and asks us to delete the words relating to the impact that it has had. I want Members to look at the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and at the reasoning behind its analysis of why Government funding is not leading to bigger spend on school buildings. It is because, once again, this Government is trying to tie the hands of local government. That is what the report states. The Government has too many strings and ribbons wrapped around the money and gives too many instructions, instead of allowing local government to deliver new and improved schools. The most important factor is that we still have a backlog in repair, refurbishment and rebuilds that needs to be tackled, and that is why we cannot support amendment 1.

Ni allwn gefnogi gwelliannau’r Llywodraeth. Mae gwelliant 1 yn gofyn inni nodi gwariant y Llywodraeth hyd yma, a oedd eisoes wedi cael ei grybwyll yn ein cynnig ni, ac yn gofyn inni ddileu’r geiriau sy’n cyfeirio at yr effaith a gafodd hynny. Yr wyf am i’r Aelodau edrych ar adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers ac ar yr ymresymu sydd wrth wraidd ei ddadansoddiad o pam nad yw cyllid y Llywodraeth yn arwain at fwy o wariant ar adeiladau ysgolion. Y rheswm, unwaith eto, yw oherwydd fod y Llywodraeth hon yn ceisio clymu dwylo llywodraeth leol. Dyna a ddywed yr adroddiad. Mae gan y Llywodraeth ormod o linynnau a rhubanau wedi’u lapio o amgylch yr arian ac mae’n rhoi gormod o gyfarwyddiadau, yn lle caniatáu i lywodraeth leol ddarparu ysgolion newydd, gwell. Y ffactor pwysicaf yw bod ôl-groniad o hyd o waith atgyweirio, ailwampio ac ailadeiladu y mae angen mynd i’r afael ag ef, a dyna pam na allwn gefnogi gwelliant 1.

Amendment 2 asks us to endorse what is, in fact, a very woolly ‘One Wales’ commitment to continue to invest in school buildings. Hurrah! I do not think that anyone in this Chamber would say that we should not invest in school buildings. It may be that the Labour Members have been seduced by Plaid Cymru Members not to go for the deal that Labour wanted to put in, which was to continue its promise in relation to 2010. Perhaps that is

Mae gwelliant 2 yn gofyn inni gefnogi’r hyn sydd, mewn gwirioneddol, yn ymrwymiad niwlog iawn yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ i barhau i fuddsoddi mewn adeiladau ysgolion. Hwrê! Ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw un yn y Siambr hon yn dweud na ddylem fuddsoddi mewn adeiladau ysgolion. Efallai fod yr Aelodau Llafur wedi cael eu hudo gan Aelodau Plaid Cymru i beidio â mynd am y ddêl yr oedd Llafur am ei chynnwys, sef parhau â’i

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the case, but we cannot sign up to something that vague. It is important, for the reasons that we have heard just now, that every child be offered that opportunity in Wales and that there is a timescale for it.

haddewid yng nghyswllt 2010. Efallai mai dyna’r sefyllfa, ond ni allwn ymrwymo i rywbeth mor amwys â hynny. Mae’n bwysig, am y rhesymau yr ydym newydd eu clywed, fod pob plentyn yng Nghymru yn cael cynnig y cyfle hwnnw a bod amserlen ar ei gyfer.

Amendment 3 implies that the Government is considering the use of the strategic capital investment fund. I have said it before, and I will say it again, that if you add together all the promises for funding to come out of the capital investment fund, it would be spent many times over. It was a skilful manoeuvre by the colleague who usually sits in front of us in the Chamber, but who is currently absent, to put all of that money into one pot and then invite everybody to bid for it. As long as he is holding on to the cash, as long as it is in his pocket, it will be perfectly reasonable for him to say, ‘Yes, but that is the fund that is going to fund everything that you want’. Of course, in the real world, we all know that the fund will not be able to pay for it all.

Mae gwelliant 3 yn awgrymu bod y Llywodraeth yn ystyried defnyddio’r gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol. Yr wyf wedi ei ddweud o’r blaen, ac fe’i dywedaf eto: os adiwch chi at ei gilydd yr holl addewidion am gyllid sydd i ddod o’r gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf, câi ei gwario lawer gwaith drosodd. Yr oedd yn symudiad celfydd gan gyd-Aelod sydd fel arfer yn eistedd o’n blaen ni yn y Siambr, ond sy’n absennol ar hyn o bryd, i roi’r holl arian hwnnw mewn un llestr ac yna gwahodd pawb i wneud cais amdano. Cyhyd ag y mae ef yn dal ei afael ar yr arian, cyhyd ag y mae yn ei boced ef, bydd yn berffaith resymol iddo ddweud, ‘Ie, ond dyna’r gronfa sy’n mynd i gyllido popeth yr ydych am ei gael’. Wrth gwrs, yn y byd real, yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod na fydd y gronfa’n gallu talu am y cyfan.

He has a bigger pocket now, because he has £140 million from the next but one year that he can pull into next year. So is the pot going to be £140 million bigger? Where will that money go? How is it going to be allocated? What effect will that have on the year afterwards? If you bring money forward by one year, does that mean that the following year’s money will be brought forward by one year? I doubt whether that we can yet hear a commitment on that from the Government. An early start needs to be made on committing this money.

Mae ganddo boced fwy yn awr, oherwydd mae ganddo £140 miliwn o’r flwyddyn nesaf ond un y gall ei dynnu i mewn i’r flwyddyn nesaf. Felly a fydd y llestr £140 miliwn yn fwy? I ble yr â’r arian hwnnw? Sut mae’n mynd i gael ei ddyrannu? Pa effaith a gaiff hynny ar y flwyddyn wedyn? Os ydych yn dod ag arian ymlaen flwyddyn, a yw hynny’n golygu y bydd arian y flwyddyn ddilynol yn cael ei symud ymlaen flwyddyn? Yr wyf yn amau na chlywn ni ymrwymiad ar hynny eto gan y Llywodraeth. Mae angen dechrau’n fuan i rwymo’r arian hwn.

I will say a few words about the First Minister’s commitment to refurbishment rather than to building new schools. I think that that is a short-sighted, single-line approach. It may well get more people into work in the short term, but we are selling our nation cheap and, in the longer term, we will not provide the new schools that our children deserve. For that reason, I believe that we need to put this commitment to the test here today and ask the Government to fill the gap, not mind the gap.

Dywedaf ychydig o eiriau am ymrwymiad y Prif Weinidog i ailwampio yn hytrach na chodi ysgolion newydd. Credaf fod hynny’n ffordd annoeth, gibddall o weithredu. Mae’n bosibl iawn y bydd yn tynnu mwy o bobl i mewn i waith yn y tymor byr, ond yr ydym yn dal i brisio’n cenedl yn rhy isel ac, yn y tymor hwy, ni fyddwn yn darparu’r ysgolion newydd y mae ein plant yn eu haeddu. Am y rheswm hwnnw, credaf fod angen inni brofi’r ymrwymiad hwn yma heddiw a gofyn i’r Llywodraeth gau’r bwlch, nid gwylio’r bwlch.

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Janet Ryder: It is interesting that the motion asks us to note

Janet Ryder: Mae’n ddiddorol fod y cynnig yn gofyn inni nodi

‘that poor school buildings have a detrimental effect on students’ learning’.

‘bod adeiladau ysgol gwael yn cael effaith andwyol ar allu myfyrwyr i ddysgu’.

As has already been underlined, we all know of the issues relating to school buildings that have received a great deal of publicity. Very often, those are about the poor condition of toilets, but, important as good cloakroom facilities are, the overall condition of the building can have a much greater adverse impact on a child. As has been said, and as we are all very much aware, in some smaller schools, children eat breakfast in the same room in which they also learn, play, exercise and eat lunch and, very often, if they stay for an after-school club, have their after-school club. That is not a healthy environment for a child to be in.

Fel sydd eisoes wedi cael ei danlinellu, gŵyr pawb ohonom am y materion yn ymwneud ag adeiladau ysgolion sydd wedi cael llawer iawn o gyhoeddusrwydd. Yn aml iawn, mae a wnelo’r rheini â chyflwr gwael toiledau, ond, er mor bwysig yw cael cyfleusterau da, gall cyflwr yr adeilad drwyddo draw gael effaith andwyol lawer mwy ar blentyn. Fel y dywedwyd, ac fel y mae pawb ohonom yn ymwybodol iawn, mewn rhai ysgolion llai, mae plant yn bwyta brecwast yn yr un ystafell ag y maent hefyd yn dysgu, chwarae, ymarfer a bwyta cinio ynddi ac, yn aml iawn, os ydynt yn aros ar gyfer clwb ar ôl yr ysgol, y cânt eu clwb ar ôl yr ysgol ynddi. Nid yw hynny’n amgylchedd iach i blentyn fod ynddo.

Those schools were built to suit a curriculum and a style of teaching of well over 150 years ago—many, many years ago. They are not capable of offering the facilities that we should now offer. They were built for a time when movement around the classroom was not encouraged for pupils of any age and when there was no concept of using computers, IT or whiteboards. They were built at a time when chalk-and-talk was the norm and pupils were expected to sit and listen. Today’s curriculum, particularly for younger pupils, has changed dramatically. We now want to see our children active and moving around, with space to develop physically, to develop social skills and to develop their educational skills. Therefore, there is the combined pressure of not only maintaining the existing buildings, but transforming the whole school estate to produce a school that will enable us to deliver today’s twenty-first century curriculum and the curricula beyond that. We are in an age when demands and expectations in education are rapidly changing. The buildings need to be able to change as curricula and demands change.

Cafodd yr ysgolion hynny eu codi i gyd-fynd â chwricwlwm ac arddull addysgu a oedd yn perthyn i ymhell dros 150 o flynyddoedd yn ôl—flynyddoedd maith, maith yn ôl. Ni allant gynnig y cyfleusterau y dylem eu cynnig yn awr. Fe’u codwyd ar adeg pan nad oedd disgyblion o unrhyw oedran yn cael eu hannog i symud o amgylch yr ystafell ddosbarth a phan nad oedd unrhyw syniad ynglŷn â defnyddio cyfrifiaduron, TG neu fyrddau gwyn. Fe’u codwyd ar adeg pan oedd sialc a siarad yn norm ac yr oedd disgwyl i ddisgyblion eistedd a gwrando. Mae cwricwlwm heddiw, yn enwedig i’r disgyblion iau, wedi newid yn ddramatig. Yn awr yr ydym am weld ein plant yn fywiog ac yn symud o gwmpas, gyda lle i ddatblygu’n gorfforol, i ddatblygu sgiliau cymdeithasol ac i ddatblygu eu sgiliau addysgol. Felly, mae’r pwysau cyfun nid yn unig o gynnal yr adeiladau presennol ond o drawsnewid holl ystâd yr ysgol i gynhyrchu ysgol a fydd yn ein galluogi i gyflwyno cwricwlwm unfed ganrif ar hugain ein hoes ni a chwricwla y tu hwnt i hynny. Yr ydym mewn oes lle mae’r galwadau a’r disgwyliadau ym myd addysg yn newid yn gyflym. Mae angen i’r adeiladau allu newid wrth i’r cwricwla a’r galwadau newid.

We are reminded in the motion that the Fe’n hatgoffir yn y gwelliant fod

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Welsh Assembly Government has already put considerable investment and resources into this. There is a commitment in amendment 2 to continue major capital investment, exceeding the sums provided over previous Assemblies. The motion also asks us to note the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that evaluates alternative forms of funding. We have heard a call for alternative forms of funding from many people in the Chamber today. The comparison in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report is with the Building Schools for the Future programme in England and much of the report evaluates how that programme is being delivered. In particular, it evaluates the attempts to draw in money via the private finance initiative. It notes various reports into PFI education programmes where concerns have, quite rightly, been raised. It states that contracts are relatively inflexible in relation to altering requirements and, given how the curriculum is changing at the moment, particularly in Wales, that needs to be borne in mind.

Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eisoes wedi buddsoddi a neilltuo adnoddau sylweddol i hyn. Mae ymrwymiad yng ngwelliant 2 i barhau â buddsoddiadau cyfalaf mawr, sy’n rhagori ar y symiau a ddarparwyd yn ystod Cynulliadau blaenorol. Mae’r cynnig hefyd yn gofyn inni nodi adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers sy’n gwerthuso dulliau cyllido amgen. Yr ydym wedi clywed llawer o bobl yn y Siambr heddiw yn galw am ddulliau cyllido amgen. Mae’r gymhariaeth yn adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers â’r rhaglen Building Schools for the Future yn Lloegr ac mae llawer o’r adroddiad yn gwerthuso sut mae’r rhaglen honno’n cael ei rhoi ar waith. Yn arbennig, mae’n gwerthuso’r ymdrechion i dynnu arian i mewn drwy’r fenter cyllid preifat. Mae’n nodi amryw o adroddiadau ar raglenni addysg PFI lle mae pryderon, yn gwbl briodol, wedi cael eu codi. Dywed fod contractau’n gymharol anhyblyg o ran newid y gofynion ac, o ystyried sut mae’r cwricwlwm yn newid ar y funud, yn enwedig yng Nghymru, mae angen cadw hynny mewn cof.

5.10 p.m.

It states that procurement costs are high, and an authority might typically expect to spend £700,000 to £1 million on advisers’ fees and internal resource costs. Questions are also raised about the quality of design and the deliverability of projects.

Dywed fod y costau caffael yn uchel, ac y gall awdurdod ddisgwyl fel arfer gwario £700,000 i £1 miliwn ar ffioedd cynghorwyr a chostau adnoddau mewnol. Codir cwestiynau hefyd ynglŷn ag ansawdd y dylunio a’r gallu i gyflawni prosiectau.

There are a number of major concerns about PFI, which are demonstrated by the examples in England, where many more such schools have been built. The former head of Highlands School in Enfield—the first school in England to be built through PFI—said that the process was ‘ineffective, bureaucratic and money-wasting’. She went on to say that the company that maintains the £24 million school used cheap building materials, overcharged for work, and failed to provide essential services for pupils. She said that it was naïve to think that a commercial company would have a social conscience, and that the school could only afford the bare essentials for pupils, because so much of its budget was going towards paying for the PFI scheme.

Mae nifer o bryderon mawr ynglŷn â PFI, a ddangosir gan yr enghreifftiau yn Lloegr, lle mae llawer mwy o ysgolion o’r fath wedi cael eu codi. Dywedodd cyn bennaeth Highlands School yn Enfield—yr ysgol gyntaf yn Lloegr i gael ei chodi drwy PFI—fod y broses yn ‘aneffeithiol a biwrocrataidd a’i bod yn gwastraffu arian’. Aeth ymlaen i ddweud bod y cwmni sy’n cynnal a chadw’r ysgol gwerth £24 miliwn wedi defnyddio defnyddiau adeiladu rhad, wedi codi gormod am y gwaith, ac wedi methu darparu gwasanaethau hanfodol i’r disgyblion. Dywedodd ei bod yn naïf meddwl y byddai gan gwmni masnachol gydwybod cymdeithasol, ac na allai’r ysgol ond fforddio’r hanfodion eithaf i’r disgyblion, gan fod cymaint o’i chyllideb yn mynd ar dalu am y cynllun PFI.

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She is not alone. Many other headteachers in England say the same. A headteacher in Sheffield has said, in relation to his school’s PFI contract, that the company is accountable to its shareholders, not to the school or to the city council. Schools feel that agreements that they had with PFI companies before handover have no value, and that there was no shared understanding between the school and the company delivering the project.

Nid yw ar ei phen ei hun. Mae llawer o benaethiaid eraill yn Lloegr yn dweud yr un fath. Mae pennaeth yn Sheffield wedi dweud, o ran contract PFI ei ysgol, mai i’w gyfranddalwyr y mae’r cwmni’n atebol, nid i’r ysgol nac i gyngor y ddinas. Mae ysgolion yn teimlo nad oes unrhyw werth i’r cytundebau a oedd ganddynt gyda’r cwmnïau PFI cyn y trosglwyddo, ac nad oes unrhyw gyd-ddealltwriaeth rhwng yr ysgol a’r cwmni a oedd yn cyflawni’r prosiect.

The Sheffield example is notable because the company that built the school—

Mae’r enghraifft yn Sheffield yn un arbennig oherwydd mae’r cwmni a gododd yr ysgol—

William Graham: Janet, please wind up. William Graham: Janet, a wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda.

Janet Ryder: That company changed its structure to become a facilities management company, and then denied any responsibility for the school buildings. PFI projects suck up revenue money that should be going into services. PFI is not a long-term solution, and it is not a sound solution. It amounts to spending money for tomorrow’s services on a quick fix, and does not work in the long run. That is why Plaid Cymru will maintain its opposition to it.

Janet Ryder: Newidiodd y cwmni hwnnw ei strwythur i ddod yn gwmni rheoli cyfleusterau, ac yna gwadodd unrhyw gyfrifoldeb am adeiladau’r ysgol. Mae prosiectau PFI yn llyncu arian a ddylai fod yn mynd ar wasanaethau. Nid yw PFI yn ateb tymor hir, ac nid yw’n ateb cadarn. Mae’n golygu gwario arian ar gyfer gwasanaethau yfory er mwyn cael ateb cyflym, ac nid yw hynny’n gweithio yn y tymor hir. Dyna pam y bydd Plaid Cymru yn parhau i’w wrthwynebu.

Eleanor Burnham: Follow that. Estyn’s recent report identified examples of tangible benefits—it is common sense, really—relating to performance in new or substantially refurbished school buildings and facilities. The first was improved teaching quality. In seven such schools that Estyn focused on, teaching standards improved dramatically. Schools that were mostly achieving Estyn grades 2, 3 and 4 saw their teaching quality move up to grades 1, 2 and 3.

Eleanor Burnham: Dilyner hynny. Nododd adroddiad diweddar Estyn enghreifftiau o fanteision pendant—synnwyr cyffredin ydyw, mewn gwirionedd—yn ymwneud â pherfformiad mewn adeiladau a chyfleusterau ysgolion newydd neu rai sydd wedi cael eu hailwampio’n sylweddol. Y gyntaf oedd gwell ansawdd addysgu. Mewn saith ysgol o’r fath y canolbwyntiodd Estyn arnynt, bu gwelliant dramatig yn y safonau addysgu. Gwelodd ysgolion a oedd yn cael graddau 2, 3 a 4 gan mwyaf gan Estyn ansawdd eu haddysgu yn symud i fyny i raddau 1, 2 a 3.

Estyn also found better examination results, both in relation to absolute improvement and in individuals’ performance relative to their ability.

Canfu Estyn hefyd well canlyniadau arholiad, o safbwynt gwelliant absoliwt ac ym mherfformiad unigolion o’i gymharu â’u gallu.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 5.13 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 5.13 p.m.

A better range of subjects can be taught, and Gellir addysgu gwell amrediad o bynciau, ac

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they can be taught in a more engaging fashion, using up-to-date techniques. Many of our schools were built over a century ago, as others have said, when teaching techniques were very different.

mae modd eu haddysgu mewn ffordd fwy diddorol, gan ddefnyddio technegau modern. Cafodd llawer o’n hysgolion eu codi dros ganrif yn ôl, fel y mae eraill wedi dweud, pan oedd technegau addysgu yn wahanol iawn.

Improved buildings also have a positive impact on behaviour. Some of us who have dealt with youngsters who were not so well behaved have had some experience of that. It is interesting that the Children’s Commissioner for Wales has mentioned the poor quality of lavatories in schools. On page 80 of his recent report he refers to the standards of cleanliness in school toilets, which continues to be a major concern—both to himself, as children’s commissioner, and to children and young people across Wales. The inquiry into the E. coli outbreak in south Wales heard that the Welsh Assembly Government had decided not to respond to the findings of the commissioner’s report, ‘Lifting the lid on the nation’s school toilets’, published in 2004. Estyn reported in May 2008 that aspects of school toilets are still unsatisfactory in half of secondary schools and a quarter of primary schools surveyed.

Mae gwell adeiladau yn cael effaith bositif ar ymddygiad hefyd. Mae rhai ohonom sydd wedi delio â phlant nad oeddent yn ymddwyn yn dda iawn wedi cael rhywfaint o brofiad o hynny. Mae’n ddiddorol fod Comisiynydd Plant Cymru wedi crybwyll ansawdd wael toiledau mewn ysgolion. Ar dudalen 80 o’i adroddiad diweddar mae’n cyfeirio at y safonau glendid mewn toiledau ysgolion, sy’n dal i beri pryder mawr—iddo ef, fel y comisiynydd plant, ac i blant a phobl ifanc ar draws Cymru. Clywodd yr ymchwiliad i’r achosion o E. coli yn y de fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi penderfynu peidio ag ymateb i ganfyddiadau adroddiad y comisiynydd, ‘Codi’r clawr ar doiledau ysgol y genedl’, a gyhoeddwyd yn 2004. Dywedodd Estyn ym mis Mai 2008 fod agweddau ar doiledau ysgol yn dal yn anfoddhaol yn hanner yr ysgolion uwchradd a chwarter yr ysgolion cynradd a arolygwyd.

I bring this to your attention because it is an important issue. There are many medical conditions that I am sure our doctor, Dai Lloyd, could tell you about. However lightweight the issue might appear, it is important. Not only are the school buildings themselves important, but the state of the lavatories are of great consequence, according to such august people as the children’s commissioner.

Dof â hyn i’ch sylw oherwydd mae’n fater pwysig. Mae llawer o gyflyrau meddygol yr wyf yn siŵr y gallai ein meddyg, Dai Lloyd, ddweud wrthych amdanynt. Pa mor ddibwys bynnag y mae’r mater yn ymddangos, mae’n bwysig. Nid yn unig y mae’r adeiladau ysgol eu hunain yn bwysig, ond mae cyflwr y toiledau yn hynod o bwysig, yn ôl pobl awdurdodol fel y comisiynydd plant.

I therefore hope that the Minister will give these matters some thought, and improve standards as soon as possible. The previous Minister constantly went on about how she was going to save the world by improving school facilities by 2010. It is nearly 2010. Are the schools improved? They are not. I therefore hope that Members will be of good heart, and remind themselves why this debate has been brought to the Chamber. I hope that you will vote in favour of the motion.

Gobeithiaf felly y gwnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried tipyn ar y materion hyn, a gwella safonau cyn gynted â phosibl. Yr oedd y Gweinidog blaenorol yn rhefru’n barhaus am sut yr oedd hi’n mynd i achub y byd drwy wella cyfleusterau ysgolion erbyn 2010. Mae bron yn 2010. A yw’r ysgolion wedi cael eu gwella? Nac ydynt. Gobeithiaf felly y bydd yr Aelodau yn codi’u calon, ac yn atgoffa eu hunain pam mae’r ddadl hon wedi cael ei chyflwyno yn y Siambr. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig.

Alun Cairns: I thank the Liberal Democrats for tabling this important motion. We have heard of many Members, particularly

Alun Cairns: Diolchaf i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am gyflwyno’r cynnig pwysig hwn. Yr ydym wedi clywed am lawer o

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Ministers, going around constituencies opening new schools, but let us not forget the bigger picture. The first and foremost thing to recognise is the target that the former Minister for education set, namely that all schools will be fit for purpose by 2010. This report from PricewaterhouseCoopers is pretty damning, and it is unequivocal in stating that not one local authority will have all schools fit for purpose by 2010.

Aelodau, a Gweinidogion yn enwedig, yn mynd o gwmpas etholaethau’n agor ysgolion newydd, ond gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio’r darlun mwy. Y peth cyntaf a’r prif beth i’w sylweddoli yw’r targed a bennwyd gan y cyn Weinidog dros addysg, sef y bydd pob ysgol yn addas i’w diben erbyn 2010. Mae’r adroddiad hwn gan PricewaterhouseCoopers yn eithaf damniol, ac mae’n gwbl ddiamwys wrth ddweud na fydd gan yr un awdurdod lleol bob un o’i hysgolion yn addas at y diben erbyn 2010.

Does the Minister recognise the shortfall of £749 million that is highlighted in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report? We hear a lot about the strategic capital investment fund. The point has already been made that, even if all the money that was in that fund was invested in school buildings, there is no way we would meet that target for 2010—we are far too close to be able to do that—nor would we probably achieve it by 2015, because the fund is insufficient.

A yw’r Gweinidog yn cydnabod y diffyg £749 miliwn y tynnir sylw ato yn adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers? Clywn lawer am y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol. Mae’r pwynt wedi’i wneud eisoes, hyd yn oed petai’r holl arian a oedd yn y gronfa honno’n cael ei fuddsoddi mewn adeiladau ysgolion, ni fyddai modd yn y byd inni gyrraedd y targed hwnnw ar gyfer 2010—mae’r flwyddyn honno’n rhy agos o lawer inni allu gwneud hynny—a go brin y byddem yn ei gyrraedd erbyn 2015, oherwydd nid yw’r gronfa’n ddigonol.

Alun Davies went on about the last Conservative Government; I can go on about 1979, and the times before that, but I do not want to waste your time. However, what Alun Davies said, which was extremely important, was that budgets are about setting priorities. We can tell from the last 11 years that, despite the former Prime Minister’s claim that budgets are about setting priorities, education was not a priority in Wales. If it was, why on earth, when we have experienced huge growth in public expenditure, are school buildings in such a state, as is underlined by this report, that we will not achieve the 2010 figure? Only 12 local authorities believe that they will achieve it by 2015, and six say that it will take until 2020. There are some that do not even have an idea of when they will do it. We can presume that some of that may down to not the most effective management in local authorities, but we cannot presume that about all.

Rhygnodd Alun Davies yn ei flaen am y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf; gallaf innau rygnu ymlaen am 1979, a’r cyfnodau cyn hynny, ond nid wyf am wastraffu’ch amser. Serch hynny, yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun Davies, a oedd yn eithriadol o bwysig, oedd bod a wnelo cyllidebau â phennu blaenoriaethau. Mae’n amlwg yn ystod yr 11 mlynedd diwethaf, er gwaethaf honiad cyn Brif Weinidog Prydain bod a wnelo cyllidebau â phennu blaenoriaethau, nad oedd addysg yn flaenoriaeth yng Nghymru. Petai’n flaenoriaeth, pam ar y ddaear, a ninnau wedi gweld gwariant cyhoeddus yn tyfu’n aruthrol, y mae cyflwr adeiladau ysgolion mor wael, fel y pwysleisir yn yr adroddiad hwn, fel na chyrhaeddwn ffigur 2010? Dim ond 12 o awdurdodau lleol sy’n credu y byddant yn ei gyrraedd erbyn 2015, a dywed chwech y bydd angen tan 2020 iddynt wneud hyn. Mae rhai nad oes ganddynt syniad hyd yn oed pa bryd y cyrhaeddant y targed. Gallwn dybio mai’r rhywfaint o’r rheswm dros hynny yw nad yw’r awdurdodau lleol yn cael eu rheoli yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol, ond ni allwn dybio hynny am y cyfan.

Alun Davies rose— Alun Davies a gododd—

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Alun Cairns: I am sorry; I do not have time to take an intervention.

Alun Cairns: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf; nid oes gennyf amser i ganiatáu ichi ymyrryd.

When the Finance Committee started to look into the private finance initiative, it visited Scotland, and spoke to Andy Kerr, the Labour MSP, who sat in the Liberal/Labour coalition. He said that, while he was Minister for Finance and Public Services, one new school a week was opened in Scotland—that is 200 new schools during the last Labour/Liberal Scottish Executive. I heard what Janet Ryder had to say about PFI; it is not the answer to everything, but it may well be part of the answer to some things. There were many inaccuracies in what Janet said. As a passionate UNISON member, Andy Kerr said that he could look his pupils and their parents in the eye when PFI-funded schools were being opened. There are various innovations around PFI. For example, there are the non-profit, development-making trusts, as well as some new innovations that have come forward.

Pan ddechreuodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid edrych ar y fenter cyllid preifat, ymwelodd â’r Alban, a siarad ag Andy Kerr, yr ASE Llafur, a fu’n aelod o glymblaid y Rhyddfrydwyr/Lafur. Dywedodd, ac yntau’n Weinidog dros Gyllid a Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus, fod un ysgol newydd wedi’i hagor bob wythnos yn yr Alban—sef 200 o ysgolion newydd yn ystod Gweithrediaeth Lafur/Rhyddfrydwyr ddiwethaf yr Alban. Clywais yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet Ryder am fentrau cyllid preifat; nid dyna’r ateb i bopeth, ond efallai’n wir mai dyna ran o’r ateb i rai pethau. Yr oedd llawer o wallau yn yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet. Ac yntau’n aelod tanbaid o UNSAIN, dywedodd Andy Kerr y gallai edrych i fyw llygaid ei ddisgyblion a’u rhieni pan agorid ysgolion dan nawdd menter cyllid preifat. Gall mentrau cyllid preifat fod ar amryw o ffurfiau arloesol. Er enghraifft, ceir yr ymddiriedolaethau heb fryd ar wneud elw sy’n creu datblygiadau, yn ogystal â rhai mathau arloesol newydd sydd wedi dod i’r fei.

What is the Government’s position on private investment in public services? We know what it is in relation to health—that is fair enough, but nonsensical, because GPs’ practices are run privately. Let us give you the benefit of the doubt on that, as it is an unequivocal statement. However, what is the Government’s position on private investment in the building of schools? We have heard what Janet Ryder thinks, and that is a respectable viewpoint; I do not accept it, and I do not believe that it is only answer, but it is part of the solution, particularly at this stage of an economic cycle. However, I want to know what the Minister thinks about private investment in public services.

Beth yw safbwynt y Llywodraeth at fuddsoddi arian preifat mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus? Gwyddom beth yw ei hagwedd at hynny ym maes iechyd—mae hynny’n ddigon teg, ond yn nonsens, oherwydd busnesau preifat yw practisiau meddygon teulu. Gadewch inni roi mantais yr amheuaeth ichi ynglŷn â hynny, gan ei fod yn ddatganiad diamwys. Fodd bynnag, beth yw safbwynt y Llywodraeth at fuddsoddi arian preifat mewn adeiladu ysgolion? Yr ydym wedi clywed barn Janet Ryder, ac mae’r safbwynt hwnnw’n un parchus; nid wyf yn ei dderbyn, ac ni chredaf mai dyna’r unig ateb, ond mae’n rhan o’r ateb, yn enwedig yn ystod y cyfod hwn mewn cylch economaidd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf am gael gwybod beth yw barn y Gweinidog am fuddsoddi arian preifat mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

Agreement has been reached on many schools over the last eight years in Wales with private money. I know of one school outside Maesteg that cost the private developer millions of pounds more than it ever envisaged. We would hear about that on

Llwyddwyd i gael cytundeb ynglŷn â llawer o ysgolion dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf gydag arian preifat. Gwn am un ysgol ar gyrion Maesteg a gostiodd filiynau o bunnoedd yn fwy i’r datblygwr preifat nag yr oedd erioed wedi’i ragweld. Byddem yn

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the front page of the Western Mail if it were the other way around. What about all the public-sector-procured schools that have been built that have not worked out? The one telling thing about meeting Andy Kerr was that it was clear that the last Scottish Executive had a plan—it knew how it was going to do it and it did it. The difference with this Minister and this Assembly Government is that they do not even have a plan.

clywed am hynny ar dudalen flaen y Western Mail petai fel arall. Beth am yr holl ysgolion sydd wedi’u codi gydag arian y sector cyhoeddus a’r rheini heb weithio? Yr un peth arwyddocaol am gyfarfod ag Andy Kerr oedd ei bod yn glir bod gan Weithrediaeth ddiwethaf yr Alban gynllun—yr oedd yn gwybod sut y bwriadai wneud pethau ac fe’u gwnaeth. Y gwahaniaeth gyda’r Gweinidog hwn a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad hwn yw nad oes ganddynt gynllun hyd yn oed.

5.20 p.m.

Mick Bates: I wish to inject a little bit of sanity into this debate. Across Wales, we are seeing the problem of falling pupil numbers, which is leading to more authorities having to look at some form of school restructuring through whatever plan their council adopts. We are seeing school amalgamations and, in some cases, school closures. However, in others, we are seeing new schools being opened or schools being refitted as their catchment areas are modified.

Mick Bates: Hoffwn ddod â mymryn o bwyll i’r ddadl hon. Ledled Cymru, yr ydym yn gweld problem niferoedd disgyblion yn gostwng, sy’n golygu bod mwy o awdurdodau’n gorfod ystyried rhyw fath o ailstrwythuro ysgolion drwy gyfrwng pa gynllun bynnag a fabwysiedir gan eu cyngor. Yr ydym yn gweld ysgolion yn uno, a, dan rai amgylchiadau, ysgolion yn cau. Fodd bynnag, mewn ardaloedd eraill, yr ydym yn gweld ysgolion newydd yn cael eu hagor neu ysgolion yn cael eu hailwampio yn sgil addasu eu dalgylchoedd.

I, along with my party, wish to ensure that all children are given the same opportunity to start their education in a quality school building. That generally means providing access to quality education. I firmly believe that the quality of the learning environment plays a huge role in the quality of education that a child receives. To me, this is a more urgent time than ever to ensure that older schools are up to standard. We need to make the case for capital investment now so that children do not get left behind. Many are still disadvantaged by having to be educated in school buildings that were built in the 1960s and 1970s.

Yr wyf fi, ynghyd â’m plaid, yn dymuno sicrhau bod pob plentyn yn cael yr un cyfle i ddechrau ei addysg mewn adeilad ysgol o safon. Fel rheol, bydd hynny’n golygu darparu llwybr at addysg o safon. Credaf yn gryf fod ansawdd yr amgylchedd dysgu’n chwarae rôl enfawr yn ansawdd yr addysg a gaiff plentyn. I mi, mae mwy o frys nag erioed yn awr inni sicrhau bod ysgolion hŷn o safon ddigon da. Mae angen inni ddadlau o blaid buddsoddi cyfalaf yn awr er mwyn i blant beidio â chael eu gadael ar eu hôl. Mae llawer yn dal dan anfantais am eu bod yn gorfod cael eu haddysg mewn adeiladau ysgolion a godwyd yn 60au a 70au’r ganrif ddiwethaf.

The other dimension that can present an opportunity during this period of school reorganisation is the increase in the demand for Welsh-language education. That is bucking the normal trend of vacant places in schools. It is particularly true of Cardiff, where the demand for Welsh-medium education increases at the same time as numbers fall in many other places. The same is true in my constituency in Newtown where

Y dimensiwn arall a all gynnig cyfle yn ystod y cyfnod hwn wrth ad-drefnu ysgolion yw’r cynnydd yn y galw am addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae hynny’n groes i’r duedd gyffredinol, sef bod lleoedd gwag mewn ysgolion. Mae’n arbennig o wir am Gaerdydd, lle mae’r galw am addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cynyddu wrth i’r niferoedd ostwng mewn llawer man arall. Mae’r un peth yn wir yn fy etholaeth i yn y Drenewydd

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there is a thriving and popular school, Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd, which does not have a school hall or any catering facilities. We have all visited schools where desks have to be moved in order to make room for lunch, which is brought from another school, with no covered walkway between schools. If pupils wish to do physical education in the hall, they have to go to another school. That is unacceptable in this modern age. Other speakers made reference to this type of Victorian school—they are fine buildings, but are not fit for purpose.

lle ceir ysgol boblogaidd sy’n ffynnu, Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd. Nid oes ganddi na neuadd ysgol na chyfleusterau arlwyo. Yr ydym i gyd wedi ymweld ag ysgolion lle mae’n rhaid symud desgiau er mwyn creu lle i’r plant gael cinio, a hwnnw’n cael ei gludo yno o ysgol arall, lle nad oes llwybr dan do rhwng yr ysgolion. Os bydd disgyblion yn dymuno gwneud addysg gorfforol yn y neuadd, rhaid iddynt fynd i ysgol arall. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol yn yr oes fodern hon. Cyfeiriodd siaradwyr eraill at y math hwn o ysgol Fictoraidd—maent yn adeiladau hardd, ond nid ydynt yn addas at y diben.

So, there is an opportunity to develop a much more robust approach to Welsh-medium education. I think that this Minister is missing that opportunity. I am sure that the Minister is aware of Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd in Newtown; that school is desperate for the facilities in which teachers can use their professionalism to fulfil a modern curriculum.

Felly, mae cyfle i ddatblygu ymagwedd gadarnach o lawer at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Credaf fod y Gweinidog hwn yn methu’r cyfle hwnnw. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y Gweinidog yn gwybod am Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd yn y Drenewydd. Mae’r ysgol honno’n gweiddi am y cyfleusterau lle gall athrawon ddefnyddio’u proffesiynoldeb i ddarparu cwricwlwm modern.

In conclusion, the changing demographics of Wales present us with opportunities to develop a school system that is fit for the future. We have already said that a high-quality learning environment is essential to delivering a high-quality education. We can use this opportunity to deliver that, but we need to ensure that we turn that into an opportunity for all and not just for the few.

I gloi, mae demograffeg Cymru’n newid ac mae hynny’n cynnig cyfleoedd inni ddatblygu system ysgolion sy’n addas at y dyfodol. Yr ydym eisoes wedi dweud bod amgylchedd dysgu o safon yn hanfodol er mwyn darparu addysg o safon. Gallwn ddefnyddio’r cyfle hwn i wireddu hynny, ond mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn troi hynny’n gyfle i bawb yn hytrach nag yn gyfle i rai’n unig.

The Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills (Jane Hutt): I will start with the ‘One Wales’ commitment to continue with the major building programme to upgrade school buildings, exceeding the sums provided over the past four years. Thank you, Kirsty, for promoting this important debate in a measured way. The contributions from across the Chamber have been valuable. I will respond with an assurance and a commitment, as your Minister, to address this important issue for our children and young people. All of us recognise the importance of safe and modern school facilities, if teaching and learning are to be fully effective and schools are to be enabled to deliver the curriculum. That is why the One Wales Government has pledged to continue with a major school buildings

Y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau (Jane Hutt): Dechreuaf gydag ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i barhau â’r rhaglen adeiladu fawr i uwchraddio adeiladau ysgol, y tu hwnt i’r symiau a ddarparwyd dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf. Diolch ichi, Kirsty, am hybu’r ddadl bwysig hon mewn ffordd bwyllog. Mae’r cyfraniadau ar draws y Siambr wedi bod yn werthfawr. Atebaf drwy’ch sicrhau a thrwy addo ichi, fel eich Gweinidog, yr af i’r afael â’r mater pwysig hwn er mwyn ein plant a’n pobl ifanc. Yr ydym i gyd yn sylweddoli pa mor bwysig yw cyfleusterau diogel a modern mewn ysgolion, er mwyn i’r addysgu a’r dysgu fod yn gwbl effeithiol ac er mwyn i ysgolion allu darparu’r cwricwlwm. Dyna pam mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un wedi addo bwrw ymlaen â rhaglen fawr i wella

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improvement programme, with increased investment, and to create schools fit for the twenty-first century; to provide environments that remove the barriers to learning, as Mick described, and to engage and inspire not only the learner, but also the teachers in the wider community. It is significant that the report by Estyn, which we commissioned, on the performance of schools before and after moving into new or significantly refurbished premises showed improvement in pupils’ attainment achievement. In some cases the improvement has been significant especially for schools in communities with high levels of social and economic deprivation. There has also been a beneficial effect on the quality of teaching and on staff morale.

adeiladau ysgolion, drwy fuddsoddi mwy, ac i greu ysgolion sy’n addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain; i ddarparu amgylcheddau sy’n chwalu’r rhwystrau rhag dysgu, fel y’u disgrifiwyd gan Mick, ac i ymrwymo ac ysbrydoli nid yn unig y dysgwr, ond hefyd yr athrawon yn y gymuned ehangach. Mae’n arwyddocaol bod yr adroddiad gan Estyn, a gomisiynwyd gennym, ar berfformiad ysgolion cyn iddynt symud i adeiladau newydd neu rai sydd wedi’u hailwampio’n sylweddol ac ar ôl iddynt wneud hynny’n dangos bod disgyblion yn cyflawni’n well. Mewn ambell achos, mae’r gwelliant wedi bod yn sylweddol, yn enwedig mewn ysgolion yn y cymunedau hynny sy’n wynebu amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd dybryd. Gwelwyd effaith lesol ar ansawdd yr addysgu ac ar ysbryd y staff hefyd.

While school buildings may present barriers to learning, education outcomes do not just depend on school buildings. They are influenced by a range of factors—this point was mentioned by Alun—including poverty, family circumstances, housing and health. Improving outcomes for learners is a key priority for this Government in the round. Of course, this takes us back to ‘The Learning Country: Vision into Action’, in which we made it clear that we want to build on existing knowledge of what makes effective learning settings so as to develop and improve our education system.

Er bod adeiladau ysgolion o bosibl yn creu rhwystrau rhag dysgu, nid yw canlyniadau addysg yn dibynnu ar adeilad yr ysgol yn unig. Mae amrywiaeth o ffactorau’n dylanwadu ar y canlyniadau hyn—cyfeiriwyd at y pwynt hwn gan Alun—gan gynnwys tlodi, amgylchiadau’r teulu, tai ac iechyd. Mae gwella’r canlyniadau i ddysgwyr yn flaenoriaeth allweddol i’r Llywodraeth hon drwyddi draw. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn ein harwain yn ôl at ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Gweledigaeth ar Waith’, lle’i gwnaethom yn glir ein bod yn awyddus i adeiladu ar sail y wybodaeth sydd ar gael ynglŷn â’r hyn sy’n creu lleoliadau dysgu effeithiol er mwyn datblygu a gwella’n system addysg.

I am grateful, Kirsty, that you recognise our commitment to, and our delivery in, improving school buildings. In 2003, we made a manifesto commitment to invest £560 million in improving school buildings during the lifetime of the second Assembly. We exceeded that commitment, as the total level of funding provided by the Assembly Government between 2004-05 and 2007-08 was actually £667 million, and that included the capital value of private finance initiatives and early years funding.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar, Kirsty, eich bod yn cydnabod ein hymrwymiad i wella adeiladau ysgolion, a gwireddu hynny. Yn 2003, gwnaethom ymrwymiad yn ein maniffesto i fuddsoddi £560 miliwn er mwyn gwella adeiladau ysgolion yn ystod oes yr ail Gynulliad. Rhagorwyd ar yr ymrwymiad hwnnw, gan mai gwir gyfanswm yr arian a ddarparwyd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad rhwng 2004-05 a 2007-08 oedd £667 miliwn, ac yr oedd hynny’n cynnwys gwerth cyfalaf mentrau cyllid preifat ac arian ar gyfer y blynyddoedd cynnar.

As Janet said, Welsh Assembly Government grant funding for schools capital has increased from £82 million in 2002-03 to

Fel y dywedodd Janet, mae cyllid grant Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer cyfalaf ysgolion wedi cynyddu o £82 miliwn yn

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£168 million in 2008-09. That is somewhat different to the annual provision of just £43 million investment that was generally made available to authorities before 1997 to tackle the problem of crumbling schools and to make improvements to buildings. We do not want to go backwards, but that is the fact of the low level of investment, which is why we introduced the new deal programme in 1997 and then, in 2002, the made-in-Wales school buildings improvement grant programme, which alone is providing £90 million of ring-fenced funding for schools this year.

2002-03 i £162 miliwn yn 2008-09. Mae hynny dipyn yn wahanol i’r hyn a oedd ar gael yn gyffredinol i awdurdodau cyn 1997 i fynd i’r afael ag ysgolion a oedd yn dadfeilio a gwella adeiladau, sef buddsoddiad blynyddol o brin £43 miliwn. Nid ydym am fynd am fynd tuag yn ôl, ond dyna yw ffaith lefel isel y buddsoddi, a dyna pam y cyflwynwyd rhaglen y fargen newydd gennym yn 1997 ac wedyn, yn 2002 y rhaglen grantiau gwella adeiladau ysgolion, rhaglen a luniwyd yng Nghymru. Mae honno ar ei phen ei hun yn darparu £90 miliwn o gyllid wedi’i neilltuo ar gyfer ysgolion eleni.

Let us look at what has been achieved. Since 2002, some 1,724 projects have received Assembly Government funding support through the school buildings improvement grant, 156 of which cost over £0.5 million, with 99 major projects from all 22 local education authorities costing £194 million already in progress or completed using the £9 million lump-sum shares of the school buildings improvement grant available over the last few years.

Gadewch inni edrych ar yr hyn sydd wedi’i gyflawni. Er 2002, mae oddeutu 1,724 wedi cael cymorth ariannol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad drwy gyfrwng y grant gwella adeiladau ysgolion. Costiodd 156 o’r rheini dros £0.5 miliwn, gyda 99 o brosiectau mawr o bob un o’r 22 awdurdod addysg lleol yn costio £194 miliwn eisoes ar y gweill neu wedi’u cwblhau, drwy ddefnyddio cyfrannau un-taliad o’r grant gwella adeiladau ysgolion gwerth £9 miliwn a fu ar gael dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf.

I have taken great pleasure in opening some of these schools, most recently Ysgol Clawdd Offa Primary in Prestatyn, Llanfoist Fawr Primary School in Monmouthshire—I think that Nick was there on that occasion—Ysgol Maes y Mynydd in Rhos near Wrexham, and with Alun and the First Minister, Narberth Primary School. I think that the First Minister will also open Prendergast Community Primary School in Pembrokeshire on Friday. In the last 10 years, over 382 capital projects have provided new schools, significant extensions or substantial refurbishments, at least 107 of which are brand new schools.

Mae wedi bod yn bleser mawr imi agor rhai o’r ysgolion hyn. Rhai o’r diweddaraf yw Ysgol Gynradd Clawdd Offa ym Mhrestatyn, Ysgol Gynradd Llan-ffwyst Fawr yn sir Fynwy—credaf fod Nick yno ar yr achlysur hwnnw—Ysgol Maes y Mynydd yn Rhos ger Wrecsam a gydag Alun a’r Prif Weinidog, Ysgol Gynradd Arberth. Credaf y bydd y Prif Weinidog hefyd yn agor Ysgol Gynradd Gymunedol Prendergast yn sir Benfro ddydd Gwener. Yn ystod y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, mae dros 382 o brosiectau cyfalaf wedi darparu ysgolion newydd, estyniadau sylweddol neu adnewyddiadau sylweddol, gydag o leiaf 107 o’r rheini’n ysgolion newydd sbon.

Eleanor mentioned toilets. In responding to the children’s commissioner’s report, the WLGA and I are undertaking a survey of toilet provision, which is most important for the health and wellbeing of our children and young people. I was impressed during my visit to a school in Swansea last week by the fact that the refurbishment of its toilets was its priority. Do you know why? It is because its schools council said, ‘This is the priority’.

Soniodd Eleanor am doiledau. Wrth ymateb i adroddiad y comisiynydd plant, mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a minnau’n cynnal arolwg o’r ddarpariaeth toiledau, sy’n bwysig iawn ar gyfer iechyd a lles ein plant a’n pobl ifanc. Gwnaeth fy ymweliad ag ysgol yn Abertawe argraff arnaf yr wythnos diwethaf, yn sgil y ffaith bod adnewyddu ei thoiledau’n flaenoriaeth iddi. A wyddoch pam? Oherwydd bod cyngor yr

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That shows the power of our young people—pupil power; that is where the resources went, on refurbishing the toilets to make a difference to those young people.

ysgol wedi dweud, ‘Dyma’r flaenoriaeth’. Mae hynny’n dangos grym ein pobl ifanc—grym disgyblion; i’r fan honno yr aeth yr adnoddau, ar adnewyddu’r toiledau i wneud gwahaniaeth i’r bobl ifanc hynny.

Also, we have to recognise the fact that we have a voluntary aided schools capital programme as well, supporting 35 major projects, including a new, replacement secondary school scheduled to be built in 2010-11. Of course there is a lot more to do, because we have to reverse years of underinvestment, and it takes time to plan, design and build new schools, but we are making progress.

Yn ogystal â hyn, rhaid inni gydnabod bod gennym raglen gyfalaf ar gyfer ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir hefyd, sy’n cefnogi 35 o brosiectau mawr, gan gynnwys ysgol uwchradd newydd, yn lle un sydd yno eisoes, y bwriedir ei chodi yn 2010-11. Wrth gwrs, mae llawer mwy i’w wneud, oherwydd ei bod yn rhaid inni ddadwneud blynyddoedd o danfuddsoddi, ac mae angen amser i gynllunio, dylunio a chodi adeiladau newydd, ond yr ydym yn camu ymlaen.

I want to move on to the important issue that you raised, Kirsty, when you asked where the local authorities are in all this. Actually, I have just come from the Welsh Local Government Association education cabinet members meeting, attended by John Griffiths and with representation from all authorities. We talked frankly and openly about this issue, not only at last night’s dinner, but this morning as well. They know that they have to address these issues, and they know that they have to have robust asset management plans. They know that this is linked to school reorganisation proposals to address falling rolls, and to ensure that schools are fit to deliver the curriculum.

Yr wyf am symud ymlaen at y mater pwysig a godwyd gennych, Kirsty, pan ofynasoch ymhle mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn hyn i gyd. A dweud y gwir, yr wyf newydd ddod o gyfarfod aelodau cabinet addysg Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Yr oedd John Griffiths yn bresennol yno a chynrychiolwyr o’r holl awdurdodau. Buom yn trafod y mater hwn yn ddi-flewyn-ar-dafod ac yn agored, nid dim ond yn y cinio neithiwr, ond y bore yma hefyd. Maent yn gwybod ei bod yn rhaid iddynt fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn, ac maent yn gwybod ei bod yn rhaid iddynt gael cynlluniau cadarn ar gyfer rheoli asedau. Maent yn gwybod bod hyn yn gysylltiedig â chynigion i ad-drefnu ysgolion er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r niferoedd sy’n gostwng, ac er mwyn sicrhau bod ysgolion yn addas ar gyfer darparu’r cwricwlwm.

5.30 p.m.

If you look at the figures, you will see that authorities are not keeping pace with the growth in numbers of surplus places. In January 2007, gross surplus capacity in primary schools totalled more than 50,000 places, and in secondary schools, there were more than 36,000. Therefore, we must take decisive action. We have talked about it openly, frankly, on a cross-party basis and across Wales for the past 24 hours. I committed myself today to a partnership to take this forward. We can only deliver the twenty-first century school buildings programme if we work together. It cannot just be us; it has to be our resources together

Os edrychwch ar y ffigurau, gwelwch nad yw awdurdodau’n gweithredu i ymateb i’r cynnydd yn nifer y lleoedd gwag. Yn Ionawr 2007, yr oedd dros 50,000 o leoedd gwag mewn ysgolion cynradd, a thros 36,000 mewn ysgolion uwchradd. Felly, rhaid inni gymryd camau pendant. Yr ydym wedi siarad amdano’n agored, yn ddi-flewyn-ar-dafod, ar sail drawsbleidiol a thrwy Gymru gyfan am y 24 awr diwethaf. Ymrwymais fy hun heddiw i bartneriaeth a fydd yn gweithredu ar y mater hwn. Yr unig ffordd y gallwn weithredu’r rhaglen adeiladau ysgolion ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain yw drwy weithio gyda’n gilydd. Ni allwn wneud hyn ar ein pen ein

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with their resources. We have to work together on this. We are now developing that strategy for delivering schools that are fit for the twenty-first century.

hunain; rhaid inni ddod â’n hadnoddau ni a’u hadnoddau hwy at ei gilydd. Rhaid inni weithio gyda’n gilydd. Yr ydym yn datblygu’r strategaeth honno yn awr er mwyn darparu ysgolion sy’n addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

For the future, Value Wales is working with a number of authorities to develop collaborative initiatives. We must look at innovation in procurement and in financial models to progress further the school capital programme. I look forward to seeing the Finance Committee’s report.

Ar gyfer y dyfodol, mae Gwerth Cymru’n gweithio gyda nifer o awdurdodau er mwyn datblygu mentrau cydweithredol. Rhaid inni edrych ar ffyrdd newydd o weithredu ym maes caffael a modelau ariannol er mwyn symud y rhaglen cyfalaf ysgolion ymhellach yn ei blaen. Edrychaf ymlaen i weld adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid.

Kirsty said that the strategic capital investment fund is important, and we have been developing capital investment proposals that span pre-16 and post-16 education for the use of that fund. I hope that we will be in a position to announce successful projects in the near future.

Dywedodd Kirsty fod y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol yn bwysig, ac yr ydym wedi bod yn datblygu cynigion buddsoddi cyfalaf sy’n rhychwantu addysg cyn-16 ac ôl-16 i ddefnyddio’r gronfa honno. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn gallu gwneud cyhoeddiad ynglŷn â phrosiectau llwyddiannus yn y dyfodol agos.

I am fully committed to the target of ensuring that all schools in Wales are in good physical shape and are properly maintained. I believe that I secured that commitment today, through a programme of renewal and reform, with our partners in local government. We have signed up, across the parties and across Wales, to a partnership of investment in the delivery of schools in Wales fit for the twenty-first century. I hope that Members will back me in those endeavours.

Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i’r targed o sicrhau bod pob ysgol yng Nghymru mewn cyflwr da a bod yr adeiladau’n cael eu cynnal a’u cadw’n briodol. Credaf fy mod wedi sicrhau’r ymrwymiad hwnnw heddiw, drwy raglen adnewyddu a diwygio, gyda’n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol. Yr ydym wedi cytuno i gefnogi partneriaeth, ar draws y pleidiau a thrwy Gymru gyfan, a fydd yn buddsoddi er mwyn darparu ysgolion addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Aelodau’n cefnogi’r ymdrechion hynny.

Peter Black: It has been an interesting debate. Everyone who has spoken has shown their commitment to improving our schools, albeit from different angles perhaps. I was interested to see that we had quite a few history lessons from the Government’s side today on how much money it spends, individual schools that have been improved, and a number of other aspects of the history of school building improvements since the Assembly came into being in 1999. I do not think that anyone doubts the Government’s sincerity in that regard, or even that some achievements have been made. Money has been invested in schools, which we acknowledge and accept. Some very good

Peter Black: Mae wedi bod yn ddadl ddiddorol. Mae pawb sydd wedi siarad wedi dangos ei ymrwymiad i wella’n hysgolion, er bod hynny mewn gwahanol ffyrdd o bosibl. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol gweld ein bod wedi cael ambell wers hanes gan ochr y Llywodraeth heddiw ynglŷn â faint o arian y mae’n ei wario, ysgolion unigol sydd wedi cael eu gwella, a nifer o agweddau eraill ar hanes gwelliannau i adeiladau ysgolion ers i’r Cynulliad ddod i rym yn 1999. Nid wyf yn credu bod neb yn amau didwylledd y Llywodraeth yn y cyswllt hwn, nac yn amau bod rhai gwelliannau wedi cael eu gwneud. Mae arian wedi cael ei fuddsoddi mewn ysgolion, ac yr ydym yn cydnabod ac yn

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new schools have been built, which are a credit to the area and to the local authority, and which benefit pupils tremendously by improving their education and the learning environment. At the same time, we must acknowledge that a huge amount has yet to be done. The 2010 target, which was set by the former Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills, and which has been re-stated by the current Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills approximately a year ago, has not been and will not be met simply because there is still such a huge job to be done.

derbyn hynny. Mae rhai ysgolion newydd da iawn wedi cael eu hadeiladu, sy’n glod i’r ardal ac i’r awdurdod lleol, ac sydd o fudd mawr i ddisgyblion gan eu bod yn gwella’u haddysg a’r amgylchedd dysgu. Yr un pryd, rhaid inni gydnabod bod llawer iawn o waith i’w wneud eto. Nid yw’r targed o 2010 a bennwyd gan y cyn Weinidog dros Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau, ac sydd wedi cael ei ailddatgan gan y Gweinidog presennol dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau tua blwyddyn yn ôl, wedi cael ei gyrraedd nac yn debygol o gael ei gyrraedd, a hynny’n syml iawn gan fod cymaint o waith i’w wneud eto.

The PricewaterhouseCoopers report identified how much had already been spent on school buildings and how much was being put in that budget for the future, and yet there was still a gap of £749 million. Local authorities will not be able to bridge that gap alone, and so we desperately need assistance from the Welsh Assembly Government. That is the issue, the whole point behind this debate, and the reason why we make reference to the strategic capital investment fund. We feel very strongly about this. If we have that commitment to school buildings, and if we are to invest in them as we have all discussed today, there needs to be a significant contribution from that fund. Every local government leader in Wales would echo what I say by saying that they want to do this. They have their plans in place. Many of them have carried out their asset management plans, and many have a plan to deliver improvement. If they do not get that additional money, it will take twice as long as envisaged and, in some cases, they may not even get the programme off the ground. That is the urgency of this debate and of the need to make some commitment with the fund.

Yr oedd adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers yn nodi faint a wariwyd yn barod ar adeiladau ysgolion a faint a oedd yn cael ei roi yn y gyllideb honno ar gyfer y dyfodol, ond yr oedd bwlch o £749 miliwn o hyd. Ni fydd awdurdodau lleol yn gallu pontio’r bwlch hwnnw ar eu pen eu hunain, felly mae gwir angen cymorth arnom gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Dyna’r pwynt, pwrpas y ddadl hon, a’r rheswm pam yr ydym yn cyfeirio at y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol. Yr ydym yn teimlo’n gryf iawn ynglŷn â hyn. Os oes gennym yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i adeiladau ysgolion, ac os ydym yn mynd i fuddsoddi ynddynt fel yr ydym i gyd wedi trafod heddiw, mae angen cyfraniad sylweddol o’r gronfa honno. Byddai pob arweinydd llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru’n ategu fy ngeiriau drwy ddweud eu bod yn dymuno gwneud hyn. Maent wedi gwneud eu cynlluniau. Mae llawer ohonynt wedi gweithredu eu cynlluniau rheoli asedau, ac mae’n bosibl bod ganddynt gynllun i sicrhau gwelliannau. Os na chânt yr arian ychwanegol hwnnw, bydd yn cymryd dwywaith cymaint o amser â’r disgwyl ac, mewn rhai achosion, mae’n bosibl na fyddant yn gallu dechrau rhoi’r rhaglen ar waith hyd yn oed. Dyna’r brys sy’n gysylltiedig â’r ddadl hon a’r angen i wneud rhyw ymrwymiad â’r gronfa.

Alun Davies talked about the new school in Narberth. I have not been inside it but I have passed it on a number of occasions. It looks very impressive. I visited a new school myself last week, the new Welsh-medium school in Swansea, Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Llwynderw. I thought that it was an

Siaradodd Alun Davies am yr ysgol newydd yn Arberth. Nid wyf wedi bod i mewn ynddi, ond yr wyf wedi mynd heibio fwy nag unwaith. Mae’n edrych yn drawiadol iawn. Ymwelais innau ag ysgol newydd yr wythnos diwethaf, yr ysgol Gymraeg newydd yn Abertawe, Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg

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exceedingly impressive school. The facilities there are fantastic, particularly when you consider that, for the past seven years, the school has been meeting in a series of prefabricated huts attached to Bishop Gore Comprehensive School. They are delighted with what they have got. Whenever we have a debate in Swansea about whether we need a new school because parents want to hold onto an existing school, I propose to put them on a bus and take them to Llwynderw to show them exactly what can be delivered with a new school.

Llwynderw. Credwn ei bod yn ysgol drawiadol iawn. Mae’r cyfleusterau yno’n wych, yn enwedig ac ystyried bod yr ysgol wedi bod yn cyfarfod, am y saith mlynedd diwethaf, mewn cabanau ar safle Ysgol Gyfun Esgob Gore. Maent wrth eu bodd â’r hyn y maent wedi’i gael. Pa bryd bynnag yr ydym yn cael dadl yn Abertawe ynglŷn â’r cwestiwn a oes arnom angen ysgol newydd gan fod rhieni’n dymuno dal eu gafael ar ysgol bresennol, byddaf yn cynnig eu rhoi ar fws a mynd â hwy i Lwynderw i ddangos iddynt beth yn union y gellir ei gynnig ag ysgol newydd.

The Minister talked about her visit to Swansea last week. I know that, between her visit to Clwyd Primary School and Pentrehafod School, of which I am a governor, she was taken past Manselton Primary School, my local school, which was built in the last century but one. It is so bad that there is scaffolding around it with plastic sheeting over it just to keep the rain out, because every time it rains the water goes straight through the pall stones and floods down the stairwells, effectively making the top floor of the three-storey school unusable for teaching. That is possibly the worst school in Swansea, but there are several other schools in the same category in Swansea and, I am sure, all over Wales. They need the sort of investment that Manselton and Cwmbwla need for building new schools. However, a new school will cost the local authority £7 million. It does not have that money and it desperately needs some sort of capital injection from the Assembly Government to deliver that. It is not isolated in that situation; every local authority in Wales is in a similar position.

Siaradodd y Gweinidog am ei hymweliad ag Abertawe yr wythnos diwethaf. Gwn ei bod wedi cael ei thywys, rhwng ei hymweliad ag Ysgol Gynradd Clwyd ac Ysgol Pentrehafod, yr wyf yn un o’i llywodraethwyr, heibio Ysgol Gynradd Manselton, fy ysgol leol, a adeiladwyd yn y ganrif ddiwethaf ond un. Mae cynddrwg fel bod sgaffaldiau o amgylch yr adeilad a gorchudd plastig drosto rhag bod y glaw’n dod i mewn, oherwydd bob tro y mae’n bwrw mae’r dŵr yn mynd drwy’r cerrig ac yn llifo i lawr y grisiau, gan wneud llawr uchaf yr ysgol dri llawr yn anaddas ar gyfer addysgu. Mae’n bosibl mai hon yw’r ysgol waethaf yn Abertawe, ond mae llawer o ysgolion eraill sydd yn yr un categori yn Abertawe ac, mae’n siŵr, ar hyd a lled Cymru. Mae arnynt angen y math o fuddsoddiad y mae ar Manselton a Chwmbwrla ei angen er mwyn adeiladu ysgolion newydd. Fodd bynnag, bydd ysgol newydd yn costio £7 miliwn i’r awdurdod lleol. Nid yw’r arian hwnnw ganddo ac mae arno wir angen rhyw fath o chwistrelliad o gyfalaf gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad er mwyn cyflawni hynny. Nid yw ar ei ben ei hun yn y sefyllfa honno; mae pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru mewn sefyllfa debyg.

Alun also said that this Government has invested more money in school buildings than any Government at any time in history—£168 million in one year, I think he said. However, the shortfall is still there, and we need more of that money if we are to make progress. We cannot just sit still with our existing budget; we need to add to it. As I said, Swansea has an investment backlog of £147 million; we have an asset management plan, a school improvement plan and we are

Dywedodd Alun hefyd fod y Llywodraeth hon wedi buddsoddi mwy o arian mewn adeiladau ysgolion nag unrhyw Lywodraeth erioed mewn hanes—credaf ei fod wedi cyfeirio at £168 miliwn mewn blwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r diffyg yno o hyd, ac mae arnom angen mwy o’r arian hwnnw os ydym am sicrhau cynnydd. Ni allwn eistedd yn llonydd gyda’n cyllideb bresennol; mae angen inni ychwanegu ati. Fel y dywedais, ceir ôl-groniad buddsoddi o £147 miliwn yn

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all ready to go, but the shortfall is still there. The council is showing leadership; the Assembly Government needs to show leadership, but above all the Assembly Government needs to show the colour of its money.

Abertawe; mae gennym gynllun rheoli asedau a chynllun gwella ysgolion, ac mae pawb yn barod i gychwyn, ond mae’r diffyg yno o hyd. Mae’r cyngor yn dangos arweiniad; mae angen i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad ddangos arweiniad, ond yn bennaf oll mae angen gweld rhyw arlliw o arian Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.

Janet Ryder argued against PFI and, as Alun Cairns said, there are other ways of doing this, but if the Welsh Assembly Government does not want to go down that route, it needs to offer more conventional funding. It is all very well to say that PFI is not for us because of all these problems, but if you do not put conventional funding or alternatives in place, it does not help much.

Dadleuodd Janet Ryder yn erbyn mentrau cyllid preifat ac, fel y dywedodd Alun Cairns, mae ffyrdd eraill o wneud hyn, ond os nad yw Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n dymuno dilyn y trywydd hwnnw, mae angen iddi gynnig mwy o arian confensiynol. Mae’n hawdd dweud nad yw mentrau cyllid preifat yn addas i ni oherwydd yr holl broblemau hyn, ond os nad ydych yn rhoi arian confensiynol neu’n cynnig dewisiadau eraill, nid ydym yn mynd i unlle.

Alun Davies: Alun Cairns has unfortunately left the Chamber now, but what he did not say after his meeting with Andy Kerr was that the funding that the Scottish Government put into schools in Strathclyde, I think it was, left those schools unable to obtain any further investment, and the total cost to the taxpayer was far more than the actual cost of building those schools.

Alun Davies: Nid yw Alun Cairns yn y Siambr ar hyn o bryd, yn anffodus, ond yr hyn na ddywedodd yn dilyn ei gyfarfod gydag Andy Kerr oedd bod yr arian a roddodd Llywodraeth yr Alban i ysgolion, yn Ystrad Clud os wyf yn iawn, wedi golygu bod yr ysgolion hynny’n methu â chael mwy o fuddsoddiad, a bod cyfanswm y gost i’r trethdalwyr yn llawer mwy na gwir gost adeiladu’r ysgolion hynny.

Peter Black: I was not making a specific point about Scotland. You referred to your trip to Sweden and the various alternative ways of getting private investment. There are alternatives, and we need to look at them. The Minister referred to the need for robust asset management plans. What I want to hear from the Minister is what the Government does once a robust asset management plan is in place. Will the Government give authorities some money as a reward for that to invest in schools?

Peter Black: Nid oeddwn yn gwneud pwynt penodol ynglŷn â’r Alban. Cyfeiriasoch at eich trip i Sweden a’r gwahanol ffyrdd eraill o gael buddsoddiad preifat. Mae dewisiadau eraill, ac mae angen inni edrych arnynt. Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at yr angen am gynlluniau rheoli asedau cadarn. Yr hyn yr hoffwn i ei glywed gan y Gweinidog yw beth y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei wneud ar ôl sefydlu cynllun rheoli asedau cadarn. A fydd y Llywodraeth yn rhoi arian i awdurdodau yn wobr am hynny er mwyn buddsoddi mewn ysgolion?

A school buildings programme could help to kick-start the construction industry and help people through the coming recession. Of course, it is not only about construction, but about fitting out the school, and all the new schools in Swansea, for example, are fitted out with furniture manufactured by Remploy, which is a cause dear to my heart and to the hearts of several other Members. You have to

Gallai rhaglen adeiladau ysgolion helpu i roi hwb i’r diwydiant adeiladu a helpu pobl yn ystod y dirwasgiad sydd o’n blaenau. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn ymwneud â mwy nag adeiladu yn unig. Mae’n ymwneud â dodrefnu’r ysgol, ac mae pob un o’r ysgolion newydd yn Abertawe, er enghraifft, wedi’u dodrefnu â dodrefn wedi’i gynhyrchu gan Remploy, sy’n agos iawn at fy nghalon i a

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fit out schools and buy equipment, both of which involve a huge input to the local economy. We need that as part of our strategy for dealing with the recession.

chalon llawer Aelod arall. Rhaid ichi ddodrefnu ysgolion a phrynu offer, sydd ill dau’n golygu mewnbwn aruthrol i’r economi leol. Mae arnom angen hynny fel rhan o’n strategaeth ar gyfer ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad.

The money in the strategic capital investment fund should be used for exactly these sorts of projects. In my view, that is the only way in which the Government can make all schools fit for purpose. I urge Members to support the Welsh Liberal Democrats’ motion.

Dylai’r arian sydd yn y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol gael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer y mathau hyn o brosiectau. Yn fy marn i, dyna’r unig ffordd y gall y Llywodraeth wneud pob ysgol yn addas i’r diben. Anogaf yr Aelodau i gefnogi cynnig Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Are there any objections? I see that there are. In that case, voting will be deferred until voting time. It is past 5 p.m., and so we could move straight to voting time, unless any Member wishes the bell to be rung. I see that no such request is being made, and so we will proceed.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno â gwelliant 1. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiadau. Gan hynny, bydd y pleidleisio’n cael ei ohirio tan amser pleidleisio. Mae wedi troi 5 p.m., felly gallem fynd yn syth i’r amser pleidleisio, oni bai bod unrhyw Aelod yn dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu. Gwelaf nad oes cais o’r fath yn cael ei wneud, felly awn yn ein blaenau.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4065: O blaid 32, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 15.Amendment 1 to NDM4065: For 32, Abstain 0, Against 15.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, Rhodri

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

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Ryder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

5.40 p.m.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4065: O blaid 32, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 15.Amendment 2 to NDM4065: For 32, Abstain 0, Against 15.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4065: O blaid 46, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Amendment 3 to NDM4065: For 46, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, Nick

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Burnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynDavies, PaulEvans, NerysGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneIsherwood, MarkJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMelding, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Motion NDM4065 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4065 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. continues to express grave concern about the levels of violence against NHS staff and welcomes the Minister for Health and Social Services` commitment to the provision of full legal support to staff in such circumstances;

1. yn parhau i fynegi pryder difrifol am y lefelau trais yn erbyn staff y GIG ac yn croesawu ymrwymiad y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i ddarparu cymorth cyfreithiol llawn i staff o dan amgylchiadau o’r fath;

2. endorses the recommendation of the ministerial taskforce on violence and aggression that further research be conducted into effective assistance for staff in pursuing prosecutions when violence takes place;

2. yn cymeradwyo argymhelliad y tasglu gweinidogol ar drais ac ymddygiad ymosodol ynghylch gwneud mwy o ymchwil i gymorth effeithiol i staff wrth iddynt erlyn o ganlyniad i achosion o drais;

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3. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to create a culture of safety and security within the NHS in order to reduce the number of incidents of violence occurring.

3. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i greu diwylliant o ddiogelwch yn y GIG er mwyn lleihau nifer y digwyddiadau o drais a geir.

Cynnig NDM4065 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 38, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 9.Motion NDM4065 as amended: For 38, Abstain 0, Against 9.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, Kirsty

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, Nick

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM4065 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4065 as amended carried.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4063: O blaid 32, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 15.Amendment 1 to NDM4063: For 32, Abstain 0, Against 15.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, Jane

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, Eleanor

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Davies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Burns, AngelaDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4063: O blaid 32, Ymatal 6, Yn erbyn 9.Amendment 2 to NDM4063: For 32, Abstain 6, Against 9.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, Janet

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, Nick

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Sargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorGerman, MichaelRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4063: O blaid 32, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 15.Amendment 3 to NDM4063: For 32, Abstain 0, Against 15.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Motion NDM4063 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4063 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

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1. notes that poor school buildings have a detrimental effect on students’ learning;

1. yn nodi bod adeiladau ysgol gwael yn cael effaith andwyol ar allu myfyrwyr i ddysgu;

2. notes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that estimates the backlog in school building repairs is £749 million;

2. yn nodi adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers sy’n amcangyfrif bod yr ôl-groniad o waith atgyweirio adeiladau ysgol yn £749 miliwn;

3. notes the investment the Welsh Assembly Government has already put into improving school buildings.

3. yn nodi’r buddsoddiad y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i wneud eisoes i wella adeiladau ysgol.

4. endorses the ‘One Wales’ commitment to a continued major capital investment programme to upgrade school buildings, exceeding the sums provided over the previous Assembly term;

4. yn cefnogi ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i barhau â rhaglen fuddsoddi ar waith cyfalaf mawr er mwyn gwella adeiladau ysgolion gan neilltuo symiau uwchlaw’r hyn a ddarparwyd yn ystod tymor blaenorol y Cynulliad;

5. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to consider the use of a significant amount of the strategic capital investment framework to invest in school building improvements.

5. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ystyried defnyddio rhan sylweddol o’r fframwaith buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol i fuddsoddi mewn gwelliannau i adeiladau ysgol.

Cynnig NDM4063 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 31, Ymatal 8, Yn erbyn 7.Motion NDM4063 as amended: For 31, Abstain 8, Against 7.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri Glyn

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorGerman, MichaelIsherwood, MarkRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

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Watson, Joyce

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bourne, NickBurns, AngelaDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, Nick

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM4063 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4063 as amended carried.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s business to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.42 p.m.The meeting ended at 5.42 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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