deur kaffers gewerk. Ek weet van een boer wat kaffers het wat meer as 200 beeste op sy land het.

Die boere wil meer woon kaffers op hul plase he ?- Ja.Nou omtr nt die P^akkers Wet* Die Majjcistra. t het

vir my gese dat boere vir hom gese het dat Paul Kruger die V.et nie kan uitvoer het nie. Milner het die nie kan uitvoer nie, en hy het gevra "Hoe kan julle dit nou uitvoer?" Wat is die houding van die boera hier in verband met die Plakkers Wet,Sou U die Magistraat en die Regering ondersteun in dieuitvoering van die Wet ? - (MENKER JOHANNES LSROUX): Ja, seker. (MSNSER HOFmEYR): Ek het gemeen dat die kwessie deur middel van belasting gerSel kan word.

Ja, maar meen U dat die boere daardie sisteem sou ondefsteun, die sisteem van die Plakkers Vet ? - Ek het so gemeen. as dit dear middel van belasting sou kan gedoen word, om werkvoik te kry vir die boer; die boer sou dan werkvolk vir homself kan kry sonder dat die wer'Volk op sy plaas sou moet woon. Die belasting sou so opgeset kan word, dat as die lcaffer nie 'n sertifikaat sou kan toon nie dat hy so veel maande werk gedoen het, dan sou hy meer belasting moet betaal as die man wat die bepaalde tyd gewerk het. Die gevolg sou dan wees dat mense wat nou nie werkvolk kan kry nie dit s ou dan kan 1-cry.

Ja, maar dit is nou 'n ander sisteem; die kwessie is of die boere hul ondersteun ig sal gee vir die uitvoering van die Wet ? - Op watter manier het die boere die Wet nie ondersteun nie? Die boere in ons distrik het altyd vir die uitvoering van die Vet gevra, ma^r dit lyk vir ons dat die Outoriteite altyd gese het dat dit onmoontlik was om die et uit te voer. Die amptenaars was altyd magteloos gewees om die V*et en die regulasies uit te voer.

Die belanghebbende mense het nie beswaar gemaak nie.

Die boere kan self bewyse voor die Hof bring as die Wet ver- breek word. Sou U dink dat die boere oor die algemeen sou opkom as d&ar ’n sat k teen iemand gebring sou word vir oor- treding van die Plakkers Wet. Meen U dat hul getuienis sou gee ? - Ek kan nie sien waarom hul dit nie sou doen nie.

In verband met die voorstel wat Meneer Le Roux gemaak het dat kaffers wat nie drie maande werk £5 boete sou moet betaal; 3ou die gevolg daarvan nie wees om die kaffers in di ■ lokasies in te Jang nie ? - (MENEER JOHANNES LE ROUX) : Ja, maar die lokasies sou ook onder die Wet inval.

U meen dat elke kaffer onder die . et sou kom ? - Ja. Die wetsonderwerp sluit nie vir hull® in nie * -

, HOFMSYR): Meneer Pirow se wetsonderwerp sluit dit niein nie.

U wil voorstel dat elke kaffer, dit kom daar nie op aannie waar hy woon, dit sou moet betaal. Hy moet bewys dat hydrie maande vir iemand gewerk het en anders moet hy daardie boete betaal ? - Ja,

En kafferhoofde ? - Nee, hul moet uitgesluit word.En die kaffer wat welaf genoeg is dat hy kan seA "Ek

kan goed leef sonder te werk" - die kaffers wat inkomste belastmn; betarl; sou U hom ook insluit ? - (MENEER HQFMEXR):Hy sou natuurlik sy boete betaal. Hy sal nie werk nie. Daar rr'oet natuurlik ook uitsonderings wees. Die enigste moeil\kheid sou dit wees, daar sou kaffers wees wat honderde ander kaffers b 7 . . .11 S' ; kry, en die ander kaffers sou se dat hul vir daardie een kaffer gewerk het vir meer as drie maande.

U voorstel is dat al die kaffers, met seker uitsonder- ings wat nie drie maande in die jaar vir iemand anders ,pcw srk het die boete van £5 sou moet betaal ? - (MENEER JOHANNES LE ROUX): Ja, dit is my voorstel.

U het geprast van Regeringsplase en van onbewoonde orivate olase en U het gese dat dit die oorsaak vas van gebrek aan wer cvolk? - Ja, dit is so. Sk kan een konkreet geval vir U opneem. Daar is ' n plaas hier naby, die naam is Rietfontein. Die plaas behoor aan Meneer Brink en nog ' n paar ander mense wat in Pretoria woon. Sewe of ag jaar gelede het ek self met ander mense na daardie plaas gegaan om betaling te kry van die kaffers wat op daardie plaas gewoon het - dit was huur wat hul moet betaal het. Hul betaal £2 per man; daar was 150 groot kaffers en elk van hul het £2 betaal, wat alles saam £300 maak. Dit was 1 n onbewerkte plaas en die eienaar was in Pretoria gewees. Omtrent twee jaar gelede het 'n ander man daar gekom en hy het met die eienaars ooreen gekom om die plaas te huur. Daar is bale saailande daar en die man wat die plaas gehuur het, het baie met die lande kan doen. Maar toe die volgende winter gekoiri het was al die werkvolk, die laaste f?en van hul, weg. Eland was die Ka tein van die 1'affers wat daar was en hul is nou almal agter die berg. Hul is nou op 'n Regeringsplaas. Die plaas waar hul eers was in hierdie distrik het aan orivate mense behoor. Ons posisie is dat ons boere wat hier in die distrik boer nie werkvolk kan kry nie terwyl al die kaffers daar vry op die plase sit, of maar net klein huur betaal.

Hoe betaal daardie kaffers hul belastings? Van waar kry hul die geld om te betaal ? - Hul saai en hul hou vee aan. Daar is oor 4,000 iorge. Daar saai hul en hul het honderde sakke kaffer koring.

Hul is kaffers wat boer en hul produseer baie ? - Ja, hul werk o die plaas en hul het »n baie lekkor lewe.

Is dit dan nie onbillik ni om te se' dat fn man wat

genoeg verdien om hul eie bestaan te mask nie, kan aangaan om dit te doen, Is dit billik om te se, "Nee, jul sal nie jul besta&n maak op daardie manier nie." Sou U dit op U self wil toepas ? - Nee, ek sou dit nie laat doen nie. (MEN ER VISSER): Ja, maar ons beswaar is dat die kaffers wat daar werk deur die Regering gehelp is om na ' n ander pla*s te trek. it -ans kan dit nie kry nie. Ek het dik-els gese dat •n kaffer meer bevoorreg is as 'n wit an. Ek sou baie beter af wees as ek 'n kaffer sou wees. 'n Kaffer kan net soveel vee aanhou as hy wil en hy kan net soveel land oloeg as hy wil en al wat hy betaal is £1 per jaar.

VOORSITTER I U beswaar is dat hul opGoewernments plage kan gaan woon en net alleen huur betaal ? - (MEN ;ER HCF /IEYR) : Neo, hul betaal nie huur aan die Regering nie.( INKER tfOHANITSS LEROUX): Hul woon daar vry, sonder betaling. Hul betael net allenig hoof oelasting.

I4ENEER bUCAS: Ma-r hul betaal huur op Regeringsplase? - hul betaal nie huur nie; glad nie.

-TEN'1’ £R LE ROTJX VAN NI RK: Ja, maar hul betaal belasting wanneer hul op Regeringspl.' se woon, sodat hul werklik nie vir niks daer woon nie ? - (M N :ER V1SS R): Daar is ver- skriklik baie land daar. Daar was 'n kaffer kaptein gewees wat daardie plars wil koop het, maar die Regering het eers by die boere gekom en het vir hul gevra of hul ten gunste dearvan was o^ die kaffers die land te la? t koop; ons het beswaar gemaak en die Regering het die plaas toe nie vir hul verkoop nie. Die plaas was erring gewees deur witmense wet dasr geboer het, en as dit nie geval was nie dan sou d1 kaffers da-rdie plars gekoop het. Dit gebeur diir els ternswoordig dat kaffers plase koop. (M NEER HOPiEYR): Da?r was een man gewees wat !n pla .s gehad het en hy

het bale kaffers op sy plaas gehad. D* ar was 'n verband met die Landbank op daardie plaas gewees an toe die eienaar die verband nie kon betaal nie, het die plaas aan die Reger- ing verval. Dia kaffers woon nou op die plaas en al wat hul betaal is £1 belasting per jaar. Dit is al.

VOORSITTER: Maar is dit nie -ie geval nie dat die plaas nou die eiendom is van die Landoank ? - i)it is tog maar Regeringsland; dit kom op dieselfde neer.

MrCNETER LE ROUX VAN NI ;KERK: U vader was !n sendaling gaweas n hierdie dele van die land ? - Ja, dit is so.

fin U het in die distrik opgegroei ? - Ja.Hat U ooit van U vader gehoor dat toe ons mense hier

die landa ingatrek het dat hul slawe mat hul gebring het ? - Ons ou mense ... Na die kaffer oorloS het hul seker raeide by hul gehad, en die meide het met hul opgegroei, maar nie as slav;e nie; toe hul opgegroei het, het die meide getrou, maar daar is nog meide hier wat nie van die witmense wil '"eggaan nie. Hul bly by hul en hul bly by die kinders en kyk agter hul. Dit was nie slawe nie.

DR. POURIil Hul is Kristens ? - Ja.

DIE K0MMI3SIE HET TOT 2 UUR V h.’RDA AG-.

MEMBER LE ROUX VAN NIEK. RK: las dit vroBer die gewoonte hier gewees dat kaffers op die ghelftes geboer het ? - (MENEER JOHANNES LE ROUX): Nee, nie dit weat ek nie.

Hoe lang woon U al hier ? - 23 jaar lang.Ons hat getuienis dat die Vet van 1913 ingevoer

was en dat onder die V et witmans nie geregtig was om kaffers op helftes te laat ploeg nie. Daar is gese dat dit die algemene gewoonte was en dat as gevolg van daardie Wet baie kaffers van die plase afgeja is en na die

lokasies gedryf het ? - Ek het 12 jaar lang in die :>uurt van Haenertsburg gewoon, daarna was ek jare op Spelonke gewees en nou is ek al tien jaar lang hier, maar ek is nie bekend met sulke gevalle waar U van geprait het. So ver as ek weet het ons nooit so iets hier gehad nie.

Nou omtrent bier; hier is 'n groot ioeili-kheid vir die boere; die kaffers maak bier op Sondae; glo U dat as die polisie op Sondae uitgestuur word in private klere dat dit 'n einde sal maak aan daardie moeilikheid; die polisie kan nie na elke plaas gaan nia ? - Hul kan een Sondag een klompie vang en as hul een Sondag een klompie vang, dan sal al die kaffers in die buurt baie versigtig word, uln dan kan hul die volgende Sondag *n ander klomp vang, ensovoort, en dit sal seker 1 l einde daar aan "iaak.

Dit is 'n ingewortelde gewoonte van die kaffer om bier te maak en tot op *n seker hoogte moet ons die kaffer tegemoet kom, is dit nie so nie ? - Ja, ons het nie beswaar nie.As die meide bier wil maak, as hul ’n klein bietjie bier wil maak en dit oo Sondag wil drink, dan het ons nie beswaar nie; maar dit is die moeilikheid; daar is honderde kaffers wat van Oos en Vves kom en hul maak lavaai en baklei en op Maandag le hul en hul kom nie by hul werk nie. Ons het nie beswaar dat hul bier sal maak vir hul eie gebruik nie, masr ons het groot beswaar teen die gewoontes wat hul het om te brou en om dan te verkoop en oin die groot bier partye te hou. Dit is waar die groot moeilikheid inkom, en dit is waar die boer skade het. Daar is nog net e ;n punt wat ek wens op te bring. On-s het !n groot lot van die ou v/oonkaffers op onsplase; die kaffers werk hul drie maande. Nadat hul hul drie maande gewerk het, tre> hul en hul kry !n pas van die baas om

on ' n ander plek te ga;.n work soek. Ons gee hul die pas en ek weet nie van ' n enkel geval wa»r die baas ooit geweier heto di-* affor 'n pas te gee nie. ^k weet nie van !n enkel geleentheid wtiar fn kaffer g^kom het orn 'n pas te kry en waa* die baas dit nie vir ho'r: gegee het nie. Hy kry altyd sy pas en da sir is nie mo°ilikheid nie. Daardie kaffer loop en gaan werk soek; tniskien sal hy Johannesburg toe gaan om op die myne te gaan werk. Hy kry die pas van sy baas vir 9 ma;nde, en wanneer die 9 maande oor is moet hy op die plaas terug wees om weer sy drie maande te kom werk. Maar wat is die geval? Daar die kaffer is weg, hy is verlore; hy kom nie terug nie, en jy kan m ar doen wat jy wil, maar jy kry nie vir hom terug nie.' n Hele jaar gaan verby, maar hy kom nie terug nie; jy kan probeer, ma .r jy sal nie vir hom kry nie. Is dit nie moontlik om 'n Wet te maak sodat die kaffer 'n identifikasie kaartjie dra, sodat die polisie altyd vir hom kan opspoor en sodat ons hom terug kan kry. Intussea terwyl die kaffer v eg bly, bly sy vrou en sy familie op ons plaas; sy vrou of sy meide bly by ons op dia plaas; ons ploeg vir hul; ek gee my osse en my ploeg en tK/ ploeg vir hul. Die meide is daar en ons kan nie vir hul dwing om te werk nie. Hul het alles wat hul wil h^ en alles wat hul nodig het, maar die man is nie daar nie, en ons kan hom nie in die hande kry nie, wat ons ook mag maak.

MKIi'TiSiSR MOSTiSRT: In ander woor-de - hy boer U uit ? - Ja, hy boer my uit. Ek weet van kaffers wat baie beter af is as die boer self; ons se dat hy ’n pas behoor te h£ sodat ons vir hom kan herken en sodat ons hom kan dwing om terug te keer.

DR. POJRIE: Onderhou hul hul families dan nie ? - In sommige gevalle stuur hul geld, maar dit is nie dikwels nie.Die ^eid woon op die bass se plaas en hul leef lekker. Die

kinders neem toe en vermoerder of die kaffer daar is of me.MEMBER LB ROIIX VAN NIEKERK: Dit is deur die Magistraat

aan die hand gegee dat ons hierdie pas sisteem totaal moet af- skaf. Hy se dat dit die boer sal bevoordeel. Die kaffor salmeer vry wees en hy sal ultgaan om op die plase vir werk te soek* Vandag word die boer 'oelet on die kaffer in diens te neem omdat hy nie 1 n oas het nie. G-lo U dat die tyd aangebreek het on die oas sisteem af te skaf ? - Neo, e■ ■ is van oordeel dat die kaffer ‘n pas behoor te dra.

Watter voordeel i3 daarin vir U as hy *n pas het ? - Wei, hy kom om werk te soek en die eerste ding wat ek vie* horn vra iss "Waar is jou pas?" Ons ondervra die kaffer en ons weet oresies wio hy is. Nee, ek meer dat die kaffer >npas moet dra.

V> ORSITTERS Die Magistraat het aan die hand gegee dat elke kaffer 'n identifikasie portret behoor te hd ? - Ja,ek het sehoor wat hy gese het.

MSN ER Ll-, ROUX VAN NIEKERKj Dan kan hy by U kom en U kan vir hom herken van die portret ? - Ja, maar jy moet weet van wasr die kaffer kom, ma«r ek T>een dat die identif ikasie portret net so ??oed sou wees as *n pas.

M sNK :;R MOSTERT: As ’ n kaffer weggaan en U kan hom nie weer t rug kry nie, dan het U die reg om sy familie eg te ja: of ons kan die oosisie so vat; as U nie meer vir ’n kaffer wil hou nie, dan kan U vir hom dat hy moet trek; is dit nie so nie ? - Ja, ek k-an vir hom s£ dat hy moet trek.

En wat as hul nie wil gaan nie ? - Die -et sal virhom. dwing om te gaan.

Weet TJ dat daer sulke gevalle gewees "as ? - Nee, ekweet nie.

MBNEER LE ROUX VAN NIEKERK: En TJ kan nie alt yd die familie van kaffers op die plaas hou as die kaffer self weg is s’-

Dit hang af. As daar klein kaffertjies is, dan kan ek natuur-lik vir hulle gebruik.

DR. FOURIE: U is s;oed bekend ’>et die diatrik ? - <Ja.Is dit »n gewoonte in die distrik o,u jong kaffertjies

te gebruik om in die kombuis te werk, of gebruik hul allenigdie meide vir kombuis werk ? - «Ja; ek weet dat kaffers gebruikis om in die kombuis te werk.

Hot dit dikwels gebeur ? - Ja, taamlik.Kan U s§ dat die helfte van die huiswerk op die plase

deur mannelike kaffers gedoen word ? - Nee, nie die huiswerk nie; wa*;r daar meide is om die werk te doen, word hul daarvoor gebruik. Dit is net waar daar nie meide is nie dat hul diejomr kaffert jies gebruik.

Ons wil weet of dit voorkom dat kaffers gebruik word0 1 huiswerk te doen ? - Ja, dit kom voov.

Is dit iets wat dikweiTs gebeur 1 - Nee, nie dikwels niemaar waar daar nie «n meid is nie, daar word die kaffer gebruik.Die vrou van die boer wil liewer 'n meid he om vir haar in diehuis te werk as ' n kaffer.

Die algemene gebruik is om 'n meid te he ? - Ja, jy kansA dat dit die algemene gebruik is. Dit is net as nooashulp dat 'n kaffer gebruik word.

.il- '.A’ J)UZYN, ca l led and < m i ln M :

THE CHAlRt AK: You are ar Attorney ? - Yes, I am an attorney, practising at Pietersburg.

I understand that recently your firm have been Inter­ested in a proposal to sell certain stands in the derelict township of the unlcipallty to natives 7 - Yes, that is so.

That point has been referred to this Commission and we would very much like to hear your point of view ? - First of all the sale of these stands is purely a business matter. That is point one. Secondly, the Land Act by ectlon 8 (g) of 1913 exempted land within the Municipal area from the operation of that Act, arid Section 5» (2a) of Act 21 of 1923, as amended by Act 25 of 1930, perpetuated that exemption by allowing natives who are registered owners of properties of a rateable value of £75 or more to remain in possession of such land on condition that they are also occupiers. Kow, that lection is also subject to the pro­clamation of any municipal land under the Urban Areas Act.If no proclamation has taken place, the Urbar Areas Act does not operate. There is certain machinery of course whereby the Municipal Authorities can remove or expel natives from the urban areas, undesirable natives, but where they are regis­tered orners such r atIves cannot be so expelled. As far aa the expropriation of property of that description is con­cerned, the Act, as I read it, would mean in effect that the natives must be compensated should the area be proclaimed, and should they be forced to retire to locations, native villages, or watever proclaimed area if oet aside for them* ait If a native is the registered owner of a property of £75 or more he cannot be expelled despite the proclamation, because he is specially exempted. The desirability

SMHSFPI think It Is perhaps the aim of the Commission to arrive at the desirability of allowing natives so to occupy land within a municipal area. The view I take is this. First of all, In the towns throughout the Union we have a vast amount of what are termed generally detriballsed natives, who have no fixed domicile and who are living In notit# locations or In native areas, ar t. a you have natives who move from town to town in search of employment* They have become town natives* rerhaps they are not all detrl- ballsed, but there are thousands of natives who live In the towns and who Intend to remain there. They have cut themselves adrift from their tribal lives and they are now assuming the lives of domesticated natives In the towns.For these natives I t^lnk the Legislature has enacted this law, to cope withnatlves who live In towns and who have no Intention of going back to any native area or farm, and I think It was necessary to control natives of that des­cription. fie have locations In many of our towns in which these natives are congregated. The conditions under which

.

these natives live In locations I think in many Instances leave much to be desired. The huts they erect, the sanit­ary arrangements, and ao on, I do not think arc at all what they should be. If, therefore, the natives were given an opportunity of living on a portion of the towr. lands where they could acquire In their own ramee land to be occupied In the spirit of the Land Act and guided by the Urban Areas Act, 1 think you would achieve something very valuable. Becau e first of all there Is the prior"possession. The native who wanders to-day from teaa to tjwn, always on the march, a iways In search of work, has now a fixed interest In a piece of land which Is his own.We know that the natives of the district are very keen, as tribes or otherwise, to pose-ess a portion of a farm.

I think the natives in the town would he Just as keen topossess their erf, because they need not at all futuretimes remain In the town - they would be able to goout to their own stands on the town lands. They intendto become citizens and to remain citizens of the town,and they would have a greater interest in the town if theyhad their own property’ they would become fixe citizensand they would become ratepayers In the Municipal area,and they would be controllable and would not alwayc goon the move from town to town, because their interests arewhere they have acquire their property, and I think thathaving once estai lishe-:: an area where natives car acquiretheir own grounds, the advancement of those natives willfollow as a result of their being constantly in touchwith the European advancement. If we look at the or inarynative locations we fin that they have erecte ; hovels,but on the other hand if you go to a native to*r.s ip likeNance field, ynberg, or Lady S< lfcome In iretoria, we findthat where a native is allowed to acquire his own propertyhe erects a very superior dwelling, he wants to be settled,

ieand that/what you want to see everywhere where you have natives beco: lng permanent residents of a town. A further argument in favour of having natives aoquiring their own property is that when they are in a location the lcea is tserely to congregate these people for the purpose of housing them, but if you give them ground, you will find that they will take a pride and that they will develop the ground itself. You rarely find that natives in the location will plant any trees round atout their houses, in fact everything it' cleared off. If you go to these other places which I have mentioned, you will see that t: ese natives who have acquired the ground are improving the property and ar? living on more Europeanised standards.

There may "be thia argument that one should not have native landowners within a Municipality, but is It not more advisable to have a contented section of your domestlo labourers concentrated In a fixed spot in your ^uniel*allty, with their own Interests in that particular spot, than

have them living in the way they are doing to day*If they live In locations, ae they are d$ng to-day, they have no further Interests, they go from one place to another, and the danger Is that they will fall Into crl:ae. Our locations as tfcu y are to-day are breeding places for crime, while if you have native villages In your Municipalities, under proper control, and controllable by your authorities, you will find that the better class of native will acquire his own land and wil take a pride In it. A mar. who lives in the towr. intends regaining there, he Intends settling, and as a result your population will be more easily controllable. H® will be an asset, and you will be able to get at hla* The spirit I think of the Legislature Is to force a native back to the lands, but I doubt whether we are ^uita fair in insisting on hie going back there. After all, if I feel tiiat I do not want to be a farioer, why should I be forced to farm or to work on a ferns ? ?/e have allowed for many hundreds of years a oertain section of the natives to gravitate to the towna, they have comethere and they have remained In the towns, and now you want to take them back to a sphere to which they are not accustomed. I do not think that we have any right to dictate to them how they should cjn uct their lives, we hsve no tght to tell then that they must ilve on farms If they do not feel themselves suitable for farming conditions.

S&f ‘.>r,:;|(;:.'V

THE CHAIRMAN: This township to which you are referring, has it a name ? * *es, it is called New ;letersburg. It Id a very old township, and it tias been in existence since 1903.

It was left by the previous European oceupai ts ? - No, there were no European occupants. It was laid out and I think it wap sold to a number of Pretoria men,like New Amsterdam, and like Sarabastad; a lot of plotswere sold to *>eople who had never been there. One stand passed recently from a ;ir. .'!alan in Pretoria, who had bought it in 1903 and he was quite pleased to get rid of it. He had been raying rates on it for yeara. It it i derelict townahlp*

How many erven have been sold to natives ? - Very few, I think in all about 30. The area of the ground which is sold to the ratives is about three times thesize of the stands in the location, measuring 50 * 100 or 120* That is in the new tornsaip.

Are the ratives occupying any of thoae stands now ? -I)

Two of them have rendered their plans to the local Funic- lpelity for approval and the matter is under consideration-v •• V'" ' "'v;VvV.-' 1 ' •• .piat present. As a matter of fact, I may say that it has already taken some time to consider.

Do you not think that dei*oping a township like■ , v ,f> , '"-faS ’li -4 ... *\ti •> 1 '"vW. . - ’ • ’

that is Utely to encourage detribalfcation of natives ? -I' (|o not know* I think that the native who lives In histribe or with his trfce is not likely to migrate simplybecause there are stands for sale. It is more the nativein the towr. who will purchase ground, particularly if it

\ •V\“S

is made clear to him that the only way in which he canreap the benefit Is to occupy the lan himself.

§ § C « ; - % •■■■■•:L- v 1 •’ vv. % v »,*- • • ” £* ; . vr v. 1

, I

DK. ROBERTS; You say that the policy of the Government Is that of "back to the land" ? - That Is how I understand the position. That Is how I read the Native cts.

You have not got any explicit statements whieh have made you cone to the conclusion that that is their policy ? - No, I cannot say that.

So you really cannot say that that is their policy, or may not be their policy ? - No, it may not.

It may rather be to get better conditions and better accommodation for natives ? - Yes.

SSU Z >aTERTf How many stands are there in this township ? - At the moment there are available about 1,35 » but apart from those there are still some European owner* who have never occupied their stands and are never likely to occupy them. Those people are in Pretoria. There are some p ople who owe rates and interest on them, and one of these fine days the Municipality will hold a sale in exec­ution.

Are there natives wanting these stands ? - Yes.How many years do you think it will take to fill all

the stands ? - fell, it is very difficult to say. A native’s mind is peculiar as far as the buying of land is concerned. It has only been p ro months now that we have taken this matter up and numbers of natives nave enquired but the local Native Commisstoner was of opinion that it was not permissible for the natte to acquire land there and he notified the natives that they had better beware.He set up a sort of caveat, but he has not been satisfied by his Department that the law does allow the purchase of land within a municipal boundary and they are actually purchasing now. How long it will take to dispose of those stands, t?uat

I can. ot Bay.Would It b» five year* ? - I am afraid I could not

give an opinion. We may have a batch of natives coming along any time to buy* 100 cane along to-day, and it r ay• * " >. ri'f'T-i, ■ * "r ' ' '-i I.- : ' ■ V

be another few months before we may get any sore.-ill thi» town be able to absorb all these natives ?

I think so*, because our location — this is uerely hearsay is not large enough to house all the natives of this town and ; understand that in the town itself there arc wc11 over 1*000 natives whoa they would like in the location but for whoa they have no Bcconm;odation« As far as this partic­ular town is c ncerned, the situation of New iletersburg is ideal for the purpose•

It is within the MunicJjal area ? - yes, if it werenot we should not be able to sell without the Governor- (kmeral's approval.

^ • ',M How far is it from the centre of thetown ? - About l£ miles.

HR. 14? UOUX VAN NI To whom does this township*

Wlong at present ? - The major portfen belongs to Mrs. Kirsten.

' ./•> ■ * - Y ri\ ‘ . •' • .V . % ; •; .

What is your connection ? - I am personally lnter- -#»ted In the sale together with some others,

3o the views you expressed are not altogether altruis tlcali ? As I said before, it is a business proposition in the first piece.

Have you visited some of the Municipal locations in Johannesburg and rretoria ? - yes, I have been through them.

And would you say that the natives are not living cleanly there and are not contented ? - Well, I can only Judge from the reports in the newspapers ae far as crime is

concerned. in© often reads tiiat Johannesburg magistrates have to contend with 00 many hundreds of cases every day.I put this dovn to location life, because I un- erst and that the Ufa in th se locations is a loose sort of a life.

They can he expelled fr® the location and put out. There is a large part of Johannesburg which has not been brought under the Urban Areas Act ? - Is that so?

KR. LUCAS: Generally in locations there is no security of tenure ? - Ho, that is so, and if a native could buy it would mean that he would have a pride of possession and it would also increase his status.

HR. U ROUX VAN KIBKEBKl On the other hand, no native is turned out from his dwelling in the location if he pays his rel.es ? - No, that is so; he hires from the Municipality.

You say that there is not sufficient accommodation here ? - That is so.

Under the Urban Areas Act the Government can .make a itunicipality provide additional accommodation ? - Yes, the Government can force the unicipality to proclaim further ground.

Now, if the natives bought land from the owners of that township would it be possible to sell to a ' hite aan again ? - Yea. The Native Lar* Act does not affect land under the control of any unicipality or Village Management Board.

Is there not the danger that these natives may be exploited in the towns? A low elass of Whit* people &ay come in among the natives and buy plots from them ? - It is hardly likely that the natives will sell for less than they have given.

But say that they are forced to sell and a poor class of Thite man comes in ? - Tell, it is hardly likely that

any .hlte man will buy in a native village. Ab a matter of feet, you could have It declared a native village, bo that no STilte man would be able to buy.

■ v - I . "■ ■ '*■ j ’.' -V ' i r ‘ .V V ju . v." . ' - f i i * ' i l u . * , c) 0 f e " 'THI CHAIRMAN* Assuming the local authority got power under the Act to prevent natives from living in a place like that, it would put the nativeB In a peculiar position - It would put them In the position of belnr, compulsory absentee landlords ? - No. If they are registered owners at the time when a particular area Is proclaimed under the Urban Areas Act they cannot be expelled from their property If such property Is of a rateable value of £75 or more, and they are In occupation. The sting of the matter comes here. They must be In actual occupation, bo that you would not have a native buying up a whole row of stands and letting them out. He must himself occupy, ar;d bo you get your desirable native living on hla own property.

Ab soon aa he does not occupy he la an absentee land­lord ? - He cannot be.

If he does not occupy ? - Ha can occupy hla o*n land.And If he can no longer occupy ? - Well then he must

be compensated. If you are going to expel the man from the land----

But say he goes away ? - The Act makee provision that he muat be compensated.

Say a man has land here and ht has to go to Johannes­burg for reasons of his own. He has land here- which he cannot occupy and which another native oannot occupy ? - Then he Is the owner of land which is unoccupied.

And which the local authority car expropriate. It cr atee a peculiar position ? - It Is private pro erty.It Is the same with the l uropean. If I have land in Pretoria and I reBide In Pietersburg, what harm is there ?

MF.. L K3UX VAN NI' KER: But you car. lease yoi r property and that man cannot? - That is so.

MR. MOST BTt How many stands have been sol*.2 in the towns ip ? - They were all sold by the owner in 1903.

Are ther many held by these people who bought them in 1903 ? - Sro. irsten is the largest owner* She virtually owns the lot.

Are there any other owners ? - Not in Platersburg. Ther are people who purchased but left their pro erty lying there.

All the owners to-day are • uropeans ? - Yes*MR.. LUCA J How much are these stands sold at ? -

£20 per stand.MA.O A DERSOIn : Ther© would be nothing to

prevent transfer ? - No, transfer has been effected to one of these natives who bought.

Could not t is place be bought for speculative purposes ? - There is nothing to prevent that.

MR. LIT A * What is the rateable value of the lard there ? - I have no idea.

Ti: rmdSION at 3.15 p.m. ADJ UNTILWEDNESDAY, AUO r :T 13th, at BARBERTON.

Collection Number: AD1438

NATIVE ECONOMIC COMMISSION 1930-1932, Evidence and Memoranda

PUBLISHER: Collection funder:- Atlantic Philanthropies Foundation

Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive

Location:- Johannesburg

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