INTERVIU1 / 2005: ketvirtinis leidinys. Pokalbiai apie menà

Dëmesio: Liutauro Pðibilskio interviu su Jonu Meku

Reportaþas: Josifas Bakðteinas apie Maskvos bienalæ

Lietuvoje: Austëjos Èepauskaitës interviu su ÐMC TV kûrëjais

Svetur: Laimos Kreivytës interviu su Mindaugu Lukoðaièiu

apie San Paulo bienalæ

Þmonës: Gabrielio Lesterio interviu su Pierre’u Bismuthu

Menininko projektas: Juozas Laivys

Ðiuolaikinio meno centras, Vilnius www.cac.lt

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ÐMC INTERVIU / CAC INTERVIU

Redaktoriai / Editors: Linara Dovydaitytë, Simon ReesDizainas / Design: Daiva KiðûnaitëVertimas / Translation: Aleksandra Fomina,Edgaras Klivis, Birutë PankûnaitëSpauda / Printer: Sapnø sala

© Ðiuolaikinio meno centras, menininkai ir tekstø autoriai / Contemporary Art Centre,Vilnius, the artists and writers, 2005.

Leidinys ar jo dalis negali bûti dauginama iratgaminama komerciniais tikslais be leidëjosutikimo.No part of this publication may be reproducedwithout prior permission of the publisher compatible with fair practice.

ISSN 1822-2064

Leidþia Ðiuolaikinio meno centras 4 kartus per metus.Produced four times a year by the Contemporary Art Centre, Vilnius.

INTERVIU skelbiamos mintys nebûtinai atitinkaleidëjo ar redakcijos nuomonæ.The views expressed in INTERVIU are not necessarily those of the Publishers or Editors.

Ðiuolaikinio meno centras [ÐMC]Contemporary Art Centre [CAC]Vokieèiø 2, LT-01130 VilniusLithuaniaT: +370-5-262 3476F: +370-5-262 3954E: interviu@cac.lt

INTERVIU bièiuliai / INTERVIU friendsAnn Demeester, AmsterdamChristoph Tannert, BerlinGordon Dalton, CardiffVanessa Joan Müller, FrankfurtMichael Stumpf, GlasgowIrina Gorlova, MoscowJens Hoffman, LondonSofia Hernaÿndez Chong Cuy, New YorkAlexis Vaillant, ParisSolvita Krese, RigaNiklas Östholm, StockholmHanno Soans, TallinnMagda Kardasz, Warsaw

Virðelyje – Juozo Laivio Auksinis akcentas, 2005On the cover: Juozas Laivys Golden Accent 2005

Direktoriaus þodis

Sveiki, atsivertæ pirmàjá ÐMC INTERVIUnumerá. Tai naujausias iððûkis, kurá patssau iðsikëlë Ðiuolaikinio meno centrasVilniuje.

Pirmasis numeris pasirodo kultûraiLietuvoje iðgyvenant didelius ir staigiuspokyèius. Ðiandien padëtis panaði ásituacijà po nepriklausomybës paskelbi-mo 1990-aisias, tik nebelikæ anuome-tinio nuostabos jausmo ir poþiûris á vyk-stanèias permainas kur kas maþiau pozi-tyvus. Atrodo, iðkilo poreikis stabtelëtiir susimàstyti, ypaè tokiai institucijaikaip ÐMC, kuri, viena vertus, atsidûrëðiø pokyèiø epicentre, kita vertus, patiyra atsakinga uþ kai kuriuos ið jø.

INTERVIU ir yra tokiø apmàstymø plat-forma. Ðis leidinys neiðvengiamai susijæssu ÐMC programa, taèiau kartu èiasiekiama plësti akiratá ir átraukti plates-ná ðiuolaikinio Lietuvos meno ir kultûrostemø laukà. Svarbu pabrëþti, kad lei-dinys tarptautinis ir ypatingà dëmesáskirs Baltijos regionui, tad Lietuvos rea-lijas galima bus iðvysti platesniame kon-tekste. INTERVIU leidþiamas dviemkalbom, lietuviðkai ir angliðkai, siekiantplësti skaitytojø ratà ir skatinti kontek-stualizacijà.

Raðyti kviesime naujus þmones ir skatin-sime nuomoniø ávairovæ, taip pat ragin-sime menininkus priimti teksto iððûkius.Leidinio turiná sudaro interviu, o nestraipsniø rinkinys, todël jo formataslaisvesnis ir maþiau oficialus nei stan-dartiniø meno þurnalø ar katalogø.Interviu rezultatas daþnai yra nenuspë-jamas: niekada ið anksto neþinai, kasgali bûti pasakyta. Visai ámanoma, kadpats ÐMC gali sulaukti pelnytos kritikos.

INTERVIU redaktoriai – ÐMC kuratoriaiLinara Dovydaitytë ir neseniai priekomandos prisijungæs Simonas Reesas.Reesas, kuris prieð tai dirbo Govett-Brewster galerijoje NaujojojeZelandijoje, turi nemaþai leidybinëspatirties ir ágûdþiø, reikalingø ðiamrizikingam naujam sumanymui ágyven-dinti. Tarptautiniu leidinio platinimu irkarðèiausiomis pasaulio naujienomisrûpinasi redaktoriø kolegija „Interviubièiuliai“, kuriems ir noriu padëkoti uþjø pastangas: tik tokiø ryðiø dëka naujisumanymai, tokie kaip INTERVIU, galirealizuotis. Laukiu jø nuomoniø bûsi-muose leidinio numeriuose.

Kvieèiu visus pasidþiaugti pirmuojuINTERVIU numeriu ir tikëkimës, kad tai,kas ðiandien tëra viso labo kuklus lei-dinys, ilgainiui virs á keturis kartus permetus pasirodantá þurnalà su puikiaateitimi. Sekite, kas vyksta.

Direktorius Kæstutis Kuizinas

Redakcijos pultas

INTERVIU startuoja turëdamas aiðkø tik-slà: uþpildyti spragà. Nei Lietuvoje, neivisame Baltijos regione ðiandien nëraspecialaus ðiuolaikiniam menui skirtoþurnalo. Antra vertus, pasigendama„smagiai-rimtos“ kultûrinës apþvalgos.Sàvokà „smagiai-rimta“ siedami suSusan Sontag Notes on camp (1964)arba Anatolio Broyard’o tekstaisrenkamës jà sàmoningai, kaip nuorodà áðmaikðèià ir lanksèià kritikà, turinèiàlengvumo pojûtá. Smagus rimtumasbûdingas nuolat kintanèiai kritikos for-mai, o ar tokia forma nëra pati tinka-miausia kalbant ðiuolaikinio menoklausimais?

Reguliarus kultûrinës institucijos lei-dinys turi bûti ðiek kiek lengvabûdiðkas,antraip jam gresia tapti perdëm didak-tiðku ar dogmatiðku. Be to, toks leidinysvisuomet gali bûti lengvai palaikytassavireklamos priemone. Ðiø spàstøtikimës iðvengti, pasitelkdami refleksyvøhumorà [smagaus rimtumo principas] irneapsiribodami vien ÐMC parodinës pro-gramos apþvalga – ypaè daug dëmesioskirsime Lietuvos menininkø projektamskitose ðalyse. Ðákart tai interviu su JonuMeku Niujorke ir pokalbis su MindauguLukoðaièiu apie 2004-øjø San Paulobienalæ.

INTERVIU taip pat bus pristatomos svar-biausios tarptautinës parodos ir ávykiai,turintys átakos ðiuolaikiniams Lietuvosmenininkams. Ðiame numeryje galiterasti interviu su 1-osios Maskvos ðiuo-laikinio meno bienalës steigëju ir kura-toriumi. Tikimës pakankamai dëmesioskirti parodoms, apie kurias visi kalbaarba kurios turi ypatingà reikðmæ ðiameregione, bet nëra iðsamiau reflektuotos.

Siekiant praplësti meniniø praktikø irmeno eksponavimo formø ribas beisuteikti galimybæ pasireikðti Lietuvosmenininkams, kiekviename numeryjebus skirta vietos taip vadinamam„menininko puslapiui“. Pirmasis savoidëjà ágyvendino kylantis menininkasJuozas Laivys, atmetæs áprastàmenininko puslapio modelá ir pasiûlæsspalvotà detalæ pirmojo INTERVIUnumerio virðeliui. Auksinës spalvosdetalë primena smeigtukà, kuriuo lei-dinys galëtø bûti prisegtas prie skel-bimø lentos arba sienos. Tipiðka Laiviokûrybai, ði nedidelë gudrybë pasirodëpatraukli: leidinys virto suvenyru-atmintine. Galbût ir po metø kitø busgalima iðvysti INTERVIU egzemplioriø,blunkantá ant dailës akademijos sienos.

Þinoma, ignoruoti ÐMC programà bûtøpaprasèiausiai kvaila, tad kiekvienamenumeryje bus bent vienas su ja susijæsinterviu. Èia stengsimës pateikti ávairiasskirtingø þmoniø nuomones, áþiebtigilesnæ paties ÐMC (savi)refleksijà ir

sukurti erdvæ diskusijai bei atvirai kritikai.Pirmajame numeryje publikuojamasinterviu apie ÐMC TV iniciatyvas, kuriosyra vienas ið bûdø plësti ÐMC veiklos ribasir taip pat siekia uþpildyti spragà.

Deja, minëta spraga nebëra vien„besivystanèiø“ tarptautinës meno siste-mos dalyviø – Lietuvos ar Baltijosregiono – problema. Pastaruoju metuspecialûs menui ir kultûrai skirti leidi-niai nyksta visame pasaulyje, dël konukenèia tarpkultûrinis diskursas irmenininkø bei raðytojø veikla.Skausmingiausiai tai atsiliepiakultûroms, nutolusioms nuo centrø, irleidiniams, kuriems rûpi regioniniaiprocesai. Ypaè ryðkiai ðiuos pokyèiusiliustruoja þurnalø NU Nordic ArtReview, L. A. Art Issues ir art/text iðnyki-mas. Tokia kultûros tendencija yradestruktyvi, ir jà reikia keisti.

Leisdami INTERVIU tikimës áveiktitakoskyras ir prisidëti kuriant parodinësbei leidybinës veiklos Lietuvoje kontek-stà, atverti platesnes perspektyvas irtapti dar viena jungtimi tarp Ðiuo-laikinio meno centro, ðiuolaikiniøLietuvos menininkø ir tarptautiniomeno pasaulio.

Linara Dovydaitytë, Simonas Reesas

Su Jonu Meku susitikome Filmøantologijos archyve Niujorke 2005 m.vasario 4 d. Kalbëjomës ilgiau neivalandà. Visas pokalbio tekstas bus pub-likuotas kataloge, lydësianèiame JonoMeko prezentacijà Lietuvos paviljone2005-øjø Venecijos bienalëje.

Liutauras Pðibilskis: Pirmasis klausi-mas apie Lietuvà: kaip daþnai ten vyk-state?

Jonas Mekas: Ne taip ir daþnai. Po1990-øjø, po iðsilaisvinimo lankiausi tenketuris kartus, taigi, kas du, trys metai.Paskutiná kartà – prieð tris metus. Nesukeliautojas, nemëgstu keliauti, esu labaiuþsiëmæs èia, todël kartais keliauti manneleidþia darbai. Iðvykstu tik tada, kaitai neiðvengiama: kai yra kas nors, koniekas kitas be manæs padaryti negali,tuomet vykstu að. Paskutinë kelionëbuvo susijusi su mano poezijos rinktinësleidimu, be to, taip pat turëjau nuvykti áParyþiø, taigi, bandþiau suderinti abikeliones. Paprastai vienos prieþastiesiðvykti man neuþtenka.

LP: Kalbant apie jûsø veiklà Lietuvoje,ten jûs pirmiausia þinomas kaip poetas.Ir kaip autorius, raðantis á Valstieèiølaikraðtá.

JM: Taip, savo pirmàjá eilëraðèiø rinkiná

ten publikavau berods 1970 metais. Irtikrai vienus metus turëjau kultûrinæskiltá tokiame ûkininkø savaitraðtyje.Mano skiltis neturëjo nieko bendra suþemës ûkiu. Tai buvo daugiau ben-driems kultûros klausimams skirtaskiltis. Praëjus metams jie kaþkodël nu-sprendë, kad tai, kà raðau, ûkininkamsneádomu. Jie kaþkaip pagalvojo, tarsitebegyventume pokario metais, kad esusocialistas ar komunistas. Þinoma, taibuvo visiðkas absurdas. Tie þmonës netnebuvo matæ mano filmø. Sklido visokiekeisti gandai. Bet ið esmës þmonësnebenorëjo, kad toliau raðyèiau á tàlaikraðtá.

LP: Prisiminkime jûsø pirmuosius vizitusLietuvoje [1971 ir 1977], kai ten fil-mavote savo filmus. Kaþkada esatesakæs, kad tuomet lankëtës beveik nere-aliose vietose. Ar prisimenate tai?

JM: Taip, taip, að lankiausi ir filmavausavo senelës namuose, kurie tam tikraprasme ir buvo nereali vieta, ir todëlsovietams tai nepatiko. Jiems reikëjopravdos, ðiuolaikinio filmo, filmo apieLietuvos progresà. Bet apie tai að niekoneþinojau; að þinojau tiktai savo vaikys-tæ. Filmas buvo mano prisiminimai apieLietuvà.

LP: Bet koks buvo jûsø susitikimas su tarealybe?

JM: Tai matyti mano filme, pavyzdþiui,ta palapinë ir kiti dalykaiir, þinoma, mano brolisyra ten ir motina yra ten.Viskas buvo labai grieþtaikontroliuojama. Ten visàlaikà buvo malûnsparnis.Jie þinojo kiekvienàmûsø þingsná. Ir visadauþ kokios mylios, uþkokio kilometro stovëda-vo sunkveþimis su moder-nia pasiklausymoaparatûra. Visada kurnors netoliese. Taigi, aðniekada neþinodavau, kàjie girdi arba kà jie mato,bet þinojau, kad negaliubûti visiðkai laisvas. Beto, visada aplinkui sukio-davosi moteris ið partijos,ji dalyvaudavo, kai mesvalgydavom ar kalbë-davomës, todël tik labairetais atvejais galëjompasiðnekëti ið tikrøjø lais-vai. Labai retai galëjaulaisvai ðnekëtis su savobroliais ar motina. Paprastai jie niekamneleisdavo nieko fil-muoti. Man paskambinoir pasakë, kad manomotinai teks atvaþiuoti á

Vilniø. Bet að pasakiau – ne, að patsnoriu ten nuvaþiuoti. Tai jie paskambinoá Maskvà pasiklausti. Jie turbût manë,kad esu ne tik kino reþisierius, bet irkaþkaip susijæs su Maskva, nes ten turë-jau gerà vardà. Ðtai kaip nutiko: buvauMaskvoje, mane pakvietë á Maskvoskino festivalá, ir bûdamas ten pasakiauLietuvos atstovams – nepamenu, kas tieatstovai buvo, – kad noriu nueiti áPravdà ir aplankyti Jurijø Drukovà.Pravdos redaktoriø. Pagrindiná. Nes kaijis buvo Niujorke ir raðë knygà apieradikalø judëjimus ir pats ðiek tiek jiemsprijautë, kaþkas jam pasakë: eik pasJonà, jis tau padës, pristatys taveAllenui Ginsbergui ir kitiems. Tai að jamdaug padëjau. Ir knygoje yra pokalbiøsu manimi skyrius. Tai jis pasakë: jei bûsiMaskvoje, bûtinai uþsuk. Situacija buvolabai juokinga, nes Lietuvos delegatainesuprato, ið kur að galiu turëti tokiusryðius. Mane palydëjo operatorius irmatë, kaip mes su Drukovu fojë gërëmearbatà, juokavome ir linksmai leidomelaikà. Vëliau á Niujorkà atvyko Serebriakovasið filmø eksporto skyriaus, norëjopamatyti mano filmà ir að sutikau. Beto, buvo atvykæs Banionis su Soliariokopija, tai, sakau, ateikite abu irpamatysite filmà. Taigi Serebriakovas irBanionis þiûrëjo mano filmà apie vaikys-tës prisiminimus ið Lietuvos.Serebriakovas supyko, sako „Turi tuojaupat sunaikinti tà filmà“. Bet Banionisfilmà gynë, nes jam patiko. Dël to vos

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LP: Koks, jûsø nuomone, buvo skirtumastarp tos komunizmo sampratos, kurituomet gyvavo [èia] Amerikoje, ir to,kas dëjosi Rusijoje?

JM: Manau, kad tai buvo tikraijuokinga. Amerikos komunistø partija irsocialistø partija paprasèiausiai niekoneþinojo. Tas pats Paryþiuje, visi tieraðytojai ir poetai, ir pats Sartre’as: jie iðtikrøjø nieko neþinojo, kas dëjosiSovietø Sàjungoje. Jie vadovavosi litera-tûra ir teorijomis, turëjo savo kultus irtas ákvepianèias teorijas, raðtus ir mani-festus. Bet tai neturëjo nieko bendra surealybe. Jie buvo visiðkai ið kitopasaulio, kaip italas Gramsci, jie buvovisiðkai kas kita. Þinoma, að nemaþai jøpaþinojau. Beje, jie daugiausia buvotrockistai. Kas vëlgi buvo kita kryptis(kuri Sovietø Sàjungai buvo nepriimtina).

LP: Mane domina atsitiktinumo ir klai-dos vaidmuo jûsø kûryboje.

JM: Að juos naudoju. Að juos átraukiu.Jie atveria kitas galimybes, apie kuriastavo protas nepagalvoja. Atsitiktinumaiir klaidos yra labai, labai, labai svarbu.Bûna, dirbi pagal tam tikrus savo protoðablonus ir staiga padarai klaidà irmatai: o, o, o kodël apie tai nepagalvo-jau? Tai kita nata. Tai kaip paliesta kitastyga. Kaip muzikos instrumente. Taigiað daþnai taip dirbu. Esu atviras galimy-bëms ir jas gaudau. Ir kartais net neþi-nau, ar kas nors ten yra, bet vis tiek taipalieku. Manau, tai daugiau nei estetika, kitosemeno ðakose taip pat daþnai naudoja-masi atsitiktinumu. Jis nutinka, tuometimi su juo þaisti. Manau, kad tai svar-biausia visø menø taisyklë. Èia kaip strë-lyèiø svaidymas. Daþniausiai, kai pradedu filmuoti.Sakykim, pavyzdþiui, yra medþio vaizdasir að galvoju, kas dera su medþiu. Irgalvoju, gerai, obuolys arba upë, arbaupelis, ir viskas tampa kontroliuojama.O kai pasiþiûri, viskas atrodo nuobodu.Taigi, að darau ir esu daræs daugybækartø ðtai kà – nufilmuoju kà nors,pavyzdþiui, medá, ir tada laukiu, koluþmirðiu kà nufilmavau, nelieèiu tosmedþiagos. Tada praeina dvi ar trysdienos ir að nufilmuoju kà nors visiðkaikito, kas neturi jokio ryðio. Tai visiðkasatsitiktinumas. Ir tada nebelieka jokiø„turiu medá, tai dabar filmuosiu upæ“.Að nebeatsimenu, kas tai buvo, tada fil-muoju koká nors vandens laðà arba skry-bëlæ. Ir pamatai, kad jau darosi ádo-miau. Nutinka nenuspëjami dalykai. Ðitomano filmuose daug. Kartais naudojuosidviem Bolexais ir vieno nelieèiu dvisavaites, kol ið tikrøjø uþmirðtu, kasjame yra.

LP: Bet jûsø filmuose vis tiek yra struk-

tûra. Man ádomu, kaip atsirado ðitadienoraðèiø kalba?

JM: Ið pradþiø tai buvo raðytiniai dieno-raðèiai. Bet, matai, kai filmuoji, esi tentà paèià akimirkà, bûni ten, nes kai kànors pamatai, jei nesugauni to per trissekundes, po keturiø ar penkiøsekundþiø tai jau virsta kaþkuo kitu.Turiu tam tikrà technikà, kad taipagauèiau. Að èiumpu ir filmuoju. Nërakada bandyti ar susikaupti, nes galiprarasti objektà, kaip ir ruoðdamas geràapðvietimà. Kamera bûna paruoðtakiekvienai progai ir ima ið karto veikti,nes Bolexà tereikia ájungti ir jis veikia,prarandi vienà ar dvi sekundes, bet spëjipagauti esmæ. Su video ðito nepadarysi,video yra kas kita, turi laukti, kol ási-jungs maitinimas, ir prarandi maþiausiaiketurias penkias sekundes prieð uþfik-suodamas vaizdà. Prarandi esmæ.Pagauni tik tai, kas ávyksta vëliau. Kainuspaudi mygtukà, objektas dingsta,todël turi tik paskui einantá veiksmà,bet neuþfiksuoji tikro veiksmo, nebentjis tæstøsi ilgà laiko tarpà. Su Bolexu aðatradau bûdà pagauti akimirksná.Filmuodamas gali koreguoti, bet visvien pagauni. Bet tada kyla klausimas,kà að ið tikrøjø gaunu, kai paprasèiausiaifilmuoju? Paspaudæs mygtukà, gauni 24kadrus per sekundæ, tai realistinis,natûralistinis filmavimo bûdas. Man taiatrodo nuobodu. Taigi turëjau keisti fil-mavimo procesà, naudodamas atskiruskadrus, keisdamas ðviesos laipsná ir grei-tá, filmuodamas pagreitintai arba sulë-tintai. Viskas, kas atsiranda filme, visastruktûra sukuriama filmavimo metu, one montaþinëje. Montuodamas tonepadarysi. Að daþnai pabrëþiu, kad tai dienoraðtis,tai realybë, bet tai taip pat ir fikcija, aðperkuriu, perkonstruoju, að átraukiu á ðáprocesà pats save. Lygiai taip pat, kairaðai dienoraðtá, tai niekada nebûnatikras dienoraðtis. Raðai praëjus dienaiar deðimèiai valandø, ar penkiomsvalandoms, vëliau vakare, kai tau jaubûna nutikæ daugybë skirtingø dalykø.Bûni pavargæs, apsipykæs, poþiûris á tai,kas nutiko per dienà, bûna jaupasikeitæs. Turëdamas kamerà viskà galifiksuoti tà paèià akimirkà. Raðydamasimi fantazuoti, o að greitai tam pasiduo-du, tiesiog nesinori þinoti, kà tà dienàveikei. Niekas nebëra tikra.

LP: Sakykite, kaip susijæ stebëjimas irdalyvavimas kuriant filmus?

JM: Að keièiu realybæ, tai tas pats, kaipkvantinëje fizikoje negali stebëti atomonekeisdamas jo. Neámanoma atskirti ste-bëtojo nuo to, kas stebima. Fizikojenëra tokio dalyko kaip objektyvumas,visame kame svarbu dalyvavimas. Taip irsu manimi. Taigi, negali atskirti manæsnuo tø vaizdø, að esu dalyvis. Negaliklausti, kam tai daroma ir kaip tai daro-ma, ir kodël tai daroma, ir kam visa tai

filmuoti? Tai dalyvavimas.

LP: Jûsø filmuose pasirodo daugelis jûsødraugø, ir man ádomu, kokià átakà jiedarë? Ar tai buvo abipusë átaka?

JM: Mes bendravome, mes kartudirbome, bet jie mano filmams átakosnedarë. Paþinojome vienas kità, betátakas darëme tiktai patys sau.Dþiaugdavomës, kai kà nors nuveik-davom kartu, bet tai kas kita. Tainereiðkia, kad jie realiai átakodavopaèius filmus. Bet nutiko taip, kaddabar mes þvelgiame ið laiko perspek-tyvos ir mano filmuose matome visustuos garsius þmones, dabar jie garsûs,nors, taip, að juos visus paþinojau. Bettada tai buvo kas kita. Tuomet jie darnebuvo garsûs. Jie buvo tik draugai. Jiebuvo tik þmonës.

Liutauras Pðibilskis yra vienas ið Lietuvospaviljono 2005-øjø Venecijos bienalëje

komisarø.

Su 1-osios Maskvos ðiuolaikinio menobienalës (2005) iniciatoriumi JosifuBakðteinu kalbasi Simonas Reesas.Parodà kartu su Bakðteinu kuravoDanielis Birnbaumas, Iara Boubnova,Nicolas Bourriaud, Rosa Martinez irHansas Ulrichas Obristas.

Su Josifu Bakðteinu gërëme arbatà supachlava elegantiðkoje Metropoliovieðbuèio kavinëje, uþ keliø þingsniønuo buvusio Lenino muziejaus –pagrindinës bienalës ekspozicijos vietos.

ÐMC: Vedamajame katalogo straipsnyjejûs, þvelgdamas ið kuratoriaus pozicijø,kalbate apie 1-osios Maskvos bienalëspublikà. Að priklausau tarptautineimeno auditorijai, kuri per pastaruosiuskeletà metø, galima sakyti, pernelygdaþnai susidûrë su grupës Blue Noseskûryba. Ar jie èia eksponuojami todël,kad Maskvoje atsirado jø dar nemaèiusipublika, ar tiesiog todël, kad jie popu-liarûs?

Josifas Bakðteinas: Taip, jie popu-liarûs. Bet ir labai patinka vienam manokolegai kuratoriui – negaliu pasakytikuriam, – o visi sprendimai dëlmenininkø buvo priiminëjami bendrusutarimu.

ÐMC: Ar „bendru sutarimu“ reiðkia, kadjûs nuolat bendravote su uþsienio kura-toriais?

JB: Teko susitikti keletà kartø.

ÐMC: Èia, Maskvoje?

JB: Pirmiausia susitikome èia. Paskui

Paryþiuje, du kartus Londone, tada SanSebastiane, o paskui dar kaþkur.

ÐMC: Kiek kartø bendraujant su kole-gomis kuratoriais jums teko neigtiromantinius Rusijos dabarties irpraeities ávaizdþius?

JB: Jiems Rusija ne itin rûpëjo. Jø dar-bas ir nebuvo rûpintis Rusija. Jie rengiatarptautinæ parodà – toks buvo jø vaid-muo. O að rûpinausi Rusija, specialiaprograma ir kaip paversti tai dideliuávykiu. Tai buvo mano darbas. Juokinga,kad tokiu bûdu nusistovëjo tam tikrastruktûra: pagrindinis projektas, spe-cialûs projektai ir periferinës pro-gramos. Ir jiems teko tai suprasti.

ÐMC: Kalbant apie èia dalyvaujanèiusAzijos menininkus matyti, kad yra daugmenininkø ið Kinijos LiaudiesRespublikos. Ar tai atspindi istoriniusryðius?

JB: Ne, tai nebuvo numatyta. Tai atsitik-tinumas. Tai susijæ su mano kolegøkuratoriø pasirinktais menininkais – kàjie þino, kuo pasitiki. Dalyvaujantuþsienio kuratoriams galime atsikratytiper didelio dëmesio seniems Rusijos irAmerikos santykiams. Tai labiau susijæsu menininkø tipais. Pavyzdþiui, argen-tinietis Tomas Saraceno tapo lyg mode-liu. Jis jaunas, visiðkai pasiðventæsmenui, galëjo atvykti pats, kaþkànuveikti ir ið tikrøjø pasinerti á renginá.Buvo labai linksma. Ruoðdamas medþia-gà ir CV katalogui, klausë, kokià ðalááraðyti – esà pats kilæs ið Argentinos, betgyvenàs Italijoje – paklausë, ar negalë-tume áraðyti „Jungtinis Dangus“. Ðtai iðkur jis. Lyg ir Jungtinë Karalystë, bet iðtikrøjø – Jungtinis Dangus. Labai graþu.

ÐMC: Gal dar per anksti klausti, bet arjau numatytas finansavimas 2007-iesiems?

JB: Pirmiausia leiskite pasakyti, kad netir dël ðiø metø pagrindinës programosrûpesèiø turëjau iki dabar. Antràjà bie-nalæ ketinome surengti su ta paèiakomanda. Nors [Kultûros] Ministerija irpasakë „taip“, finansinë situacija buvokebli. Kita problema iðkilo dël Lenino muzie-jaus; kaip ekspozicijos vieta jis buvolabai problematiðkas. Bet èia Rusija,todël tai buvo nuotykis nuo patpradþiø. Kalbant apie programà turë-èiau pasakyti, kad galutinis sprendimasdël Lenino muziejaus buvo priimtasgruodþio 2-àjà. Tai reiðkia, likus maþiaunei dviems mënesiams. Tai – Rusija.

ÐMC: Turëdamas tai omenyje, turiupasakyti, kad kai kurie instaliavimomomentai, regis, prieðtarauja patiems

eksponuojamiems kûriniams. Ar dël to ðibienalë tampa þymiai konceptualesnënei daugelis kitø, nes èia neakcentuoja-mi muziejuose ar galerijose áprastiinstaliavimo bûdai: èia menas traktuoja-mas kaip koncepcija?

JB: Pirmiausia, èia ne muziejus, èia –Bienalë! Be to, mes dirbame su jaunes-niais menininkais, daugelá jø rodomepirmà kartà. Svarbiausia, kad áatidarymà atvykusiam tarptautiniammeno istebliðmentui viskas patiko, ypaèinstaliacijos Lenino muziejuje. Patikovisiems kuratoriams, o jie – labai svar-bûs þmonës. Toks buvo mûsø triukas:pakviesti svarbiausius pasaulio þmones,kad jie padëtø legitimuoti ðiuolaikinækultûrà ðioje ðalyje. Tai gryna politika.Jiems patiko, todël visi patenkinti. Kiek

þinau, menininkai irgi patenkinti. Su jaisbuvo gana graþiai elgiamasi. Þinoma,buvo kritiniø situacijø, iðkilo keletasproblemø, bet to pasitaiko kiekvienojebienalëje. Kaip sako Rosa Martinez, dël aukðto kaikuriø kûriniø lygio neatitikimai virstaprivalumu: atsiranda lyg kokia poringaenergija, dialogas, platforma, manifes-tas. Sunku patikëti, kad Maskvoje galiaptarinëti tuos áspûdþius su daugybeþmoniø, kad atsirado kaþkas nauja, tai –istorinis momentas. Tai visiðkai naujaera.

ÐMC: Kita vertus, su legitimacijos pro-cesu susijæ þmonës daugelá ðiø kûriniøjau buvo matæ anksèiau, o tarptauti-niam þiûrovui, koks esu að, darbaipagrindinëje ekspozicijoje atrodo„padëvëti“ – ar jums taip neatrodo?

JB: Pavyzdþiui? Turite omenyje Leninomuziejø? Tikriausiai Hatsushibà?

ÐMC: Taip, Hatsushibà, nes paèiam yratekæ rodyti jo kûrinius.

JB: Taip, o dar kas?

ÐMC: Turiu atsiversti savo uþraðus...Minutëlæ. Johanna Billing, JeremyDelleris ið Kalifornijos Ðiuolaikinio menocentro rezidencijos, Mao statulos, naujigrupës Blue Noses darbai, bet visa tai jauþinoma.

JB: Na gerai, bet jûs ne maskvietis.

ÐMC: Tai kas gi yra ta naujoji Maskvospublika, ir ar manote, kad ji taps ðiuo-laikinio meno gerbëja?

JB: Jauni þmonës. Bienalë sukûrë naujàauditorijà. Staiga visa karta suprato,kad kaþkas egzistuoja, egzistuoja naujasmenas, kuriam ji jauèiasi artima. Kaþkaskeisto, ko jie negali suprasti, tarsi naujarevoliucinë dvasia, skirta jø kartai. Ir taiatliepia ðios kartos poreikius.

ÐMC: O èia bus senas dalykas...Pavadinæ parodà Vilties dialektikanegalite iðvengti susidûrimo suTheodoru Adorno.

JB: Taip, Adorno ir Ernstas Blochas. Yratokia knyga, Vakaruose pirmà kartàiðleista 1980 metais, ir garsi vieno rusøintelektualo Boriso Kagarlickio citata.Uþ tà knygà já net nuteisë dvejus metuskalëti. Buvo ryðki asmenybë. Tiesàsakant, prieð metus perskaièiau knygà,kurioje buvo nuoroda á ðià knygà, irpamaniau: „oho, tai ádomu“. Sudominoði tema, nes Rusija yra vilties ðalis. Mantai buvo svarbi asociacija.

ÐMC: Beje, Blochas, kaip ir KarlasPopperis, buvo rytø vokietis...

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Josifas Bakðteinas apie Maskvos bienalæ

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JB: Þydas, jis buvo Vokietijos þydas.

ÐMC: Taip, norëjau pasakyti, kadBlochui ir jo draugui [Popperiui] patikogyventi Rytø Vokietijoje. Jie buvo gerisovietiniai vokieèiai. Ar ðita prasmeesate geras rusas? Ar jauèiatës panaðus ájuos?

JB: Taip – net negalvojant. Net negalvo-jant, nors man pasirodë, kad sukote tamtikros liguistos konotacijos link. Taèiau –taip, manau, galima sakyti, jog man tai– tarsi pagrindinë melodija ar motyvas.

ÐMC: Jei prisimintume Aktualiøjø menømultimedijos komplekse eksponuojamoPonomariovo kûrinio pavadinimà, argalëtume sakyti, kad minëtas bendru-mas reprezentuoja Absoliutaus nuliotopologijà?

JB: Ne, að nekuravau tos parodos dalies,kur rodomas Ponomariovo darbas.Suprantu, kà norite pasakyti, kalbë-damas apie tà bendrumà. Ið tikrøjø ðim-tus kartø aiðkinau atskirø projektø kura-toriams, net dël Mapplethorpe’o irArchipovo darbø, kad parodos turi bûtibent konceptualiai susijusios supagrindine mûsø veikla.

ÐMC: Ar Rovner Architektûros muzieju-je yra jûsø ekspozicijos dalis?

JB: Taip, visi video ið Venecijos bienalës.Bet Rovner darbai yra specialus projek-tas, kaip ir Boltanskio – pagrindinëinstaliacija; Christianas Boltanskis daly-vauja kaip ypatingas sveèias. Veikia tamtikra hierarchija.

ÐMC: Na, Boltanskis tikrai nuostabus,neátikëtinas.

JB: Viena geriausiø ekspozicijø, kokias

man yra tekæ matyti. Tai kaþkas absoliu-èiai unikalaus, neámanomo; jis tikrai yravienas mëgiamiausiø mano menininkø.Aptarinëdami jo pasirodymà sugalvo-jome bûtent tokià formà ir nebesilei-dome á jokius kompromisus. Maèiaudaugybæ jo parodø ir katalogø – jisnedaro klaidø, jo atvejis ypatingas. Netjei pasitaiko, kad rodomi panaðûsdalykai. Bet tai, kaip jis instaliavo tuoskûrinius, – labai stipru.

ÐMC: Gal tai jau mano romantiniøRusijos ávaizdþiø problema, bet, maty-

damas Michel Rovner kûrinius ðiojeaplinkoje, niekaip negalëjau liautisgalvojæs apie vienà kadrà ið Tarkovskiofilmo Andrejus Rubliovas: filmuota nuokalvos virðûnës, kur liejamas varpas – tascena primena du Breughelio nutapytusþiemos peizaþus. Ar ðiame kontekstetinka taip interpretuoti Rovner kûriná(ar tai – mano problema)?

JB: Graþus dialogas. Èia jos darbai mannet primena Shirin Neshat kûrybà, norsNeshat labiau domisi etninëmis kliðëmis.Tuo tarpu Rovner kûryba susijusi ne tieksu etninëmis kliðëmis, kiek su grynaisgestais. Þinoma, èia kalbama apie þydøIzraelá, taèiau ne tik. Kadangi esu þydas,man tai pagrásta istoriðkai ásiðaknijusiaestetine vizija: kaip viskas cikliðkai juda.

ÐMC: Galvojant apie Vilties dialektikà,dialektikà ir negatyvià kritikà, kuri yradialektinës analizës pagrindas, atrodo,jog parodoje esama pozityvios dvasios,susijusios su kolektyvine veikla. Rovnerman kaip tik tai ir reprezentuoja.

JB: Taip, viena pagrindiniø viso projektoparodø eksponuojama ValstybinëjeTretjakovo galerijoje – ar matëte? Jisvarbi, nes èia pateikiamas istorinis kon-tekstas. Andrejus Jerofejevas, kuravæs ðá

projektà, pristatë visà rusø, Maskvos iralternatyviø grupiø medþiagà, sukurtàpo Antrojo pasaulinio karo. Tai tamtikras menotyrinis papildymas. Problemata, kad ne rusui suprasti sunku, nes nëraangliðkø apraðymø. Bet ið esmës galitepajusti, kad tai – ádomi medþiaga.Centriniuose menininkø namuoserodoma dar viena kontekstà atsklei-dþianti paroda.

ÐMC: Bienalë yra didþiulis renginys,kuriam apeiti reikia daug laiko.

JB: Þinau, veikia daugybë parodø. Taikelia pasididþiavimà. Jei paklaustumëte,kokia struktûrinë uþduotis man buvosunkiausia, atsakyèiau, kad kaip tik tai.Tokie þmonës kaip Kæstutis turëtøsuprasti. Nes að, bûdamas tarpininkutarp kuratoriø ir vietinio meno pasaulio,labai rizikavau. Ir visa ta baisi rusøbiurokratija – tai buvo koðmaras.Susidûrë du skirtingi pasauliai – ir bûtiatsakingu!

ÐMC: Ar Davido Ter-Organyano bombosparodoje yra grësmingos ar þaismingos?

JB: Turbût ir tokios, ir tokios. Manokolegos ið uþsienio sakë, kad jokiameEuropos muziejuje jø neleistø rodyti.Jokiu bûdu. Taèiau ðioje ðalyje taisuveiks. Bet èia jau Rusijos koloritas.Viena vertus, nieko neámanoma, kitavertus, viskas galima. Savotiðka laisvë.

ÐMC: Ar turite teisæ pasakyti, kurie dukûriniai jums labiausiai patinka?

JB: Ne. Uþimant tokias pareigas manosprendimus átakoja daugybë kriterijø irásipareigojimø. Galëèiau pasakyti, kadman patinka Christianas Boltanskis. Nesjis – garsus þmogus, didis menininkas, irtai nieko neáþeistø. Èia yra vienas ge-riausiø jo kûriniø, kokius man yra tekæmatyti. Be to, ir jis pats sakë, kad, jomanymu, tai yra vienas geriausiø jokûriniø. Toks mano atsakymas. Ir vëlgi,tai susijæ ne su vyresniàja karta armeniniais pasiekimais, o su praeitimi irpolitika. Man tai nebuvo tik progadirbti su juo ir ágyvendinti savo, kaipkuratoriaus, idëjas, tai buvo ir politinisdalykas. Ásipareigojimas menui mûsøðalyje. Tà reikëjo padaryti. Jis yra svar-bus.Ir tuomet, þinoma, atsitiktinai, ðis ávykistapo valstybës struktûros dalimi. O aðtapau atstovu, politiku, verslininku. Ðtaikaip buvo. Ðtai kodël reikëjo surinktitiek daug kuratoriø. Jø profesionalumasgarantavo tarptautinæ programà, todëlji man rûpëjo maþiau. Teko dël daug kodiskutuoti, man vieni menininkai patikolabiau nei kiti, bet ið esmës programaatsirado. Prisimenu mûsø susitikimà su KæstuèiuBazelyje. Plepëjome apie viskà. Ar taikada nors ávyks, nes to niekam nereikia?Bet tada, kai atidarymo metu stovë-

damas uþ podiumo su Kultûros ministropavaduotoju að vis dar abejojau, jispasakë: „Netikëjau, kad jums taipavyks“. Turiu pasakyti, kad man, kaip áparodiná gyvenimà ásitraukusiam kurato-riui, reikëjo padaryti tik tai, kas svarbu,bet màsèiau apie tai, kas ámanoma. Taibuvo neámanoma, bet að kaþkaippadariau. Ðtai jums istorija.

ÐMC: Taigi, paskutinis klausimas.Daugelis posovietiniø valstybiø ðiandieniðgyvena tà patá, kà ir Rusija. Stebiuosi,kad parodoje tiek nedaug menininkø iðplatesnës buvusios sovietinës erdvës.

JB: Taip, tai tiesa. Bet yra techniniaisuvarþymai. Net su kuratoriais negalimenumatyti apimties. Að pats neþinau, kasvyksta Latvijoje, Lietuvoje ir Estijoje.Maèiau keletà parodø Europoje, bet...Taip pat, tiesà sakant, gerai neþinau,kas vyksta. Kità kartà turësiu specialiaipasidomëti. Be to, yra ne tik Lietuva,yra ir Gruzija, Ukraina, Kazachstanas,Moldova, visos ðalys toje pusëje. Vilniujepaskutiná kartà buvau prieð penkeriusmetus – nemaþai laiko prabëgo. Taigituriu specialiai atvaþiuoti aplankyti visøsavo kolegø... pamatysime.

Simonas Reesas yra INTERVIU redaktorius, Maskvoje lankësi pirmà

kartà.

ÐMC TV transliuojama vienu iðkomerciniø Lietuvos televizijos kanaløTV1. 2004 m. spalio 20 d. startavusiosÐMC TV laidos pristatomos neáprastuanonsu: „Kiekviena laida – pilotinë,kiekviena laida – paskutinë“. Taèiau vistiktai kiekvienà treèiadienio vakarà vëlir vël demonstruojami menininkø filmai,diskutuojama ávairiomis temomis – apiepolitinës reklamos funkcionavimà,kultûrinio paveldo problematikà, varto-jimà ir geopolitikà, ir t.t. Kartu tai irlaida apie laidos kûrimà – realybësmetaðou.

Ðis interviu – tæsinys anksèiau darytointerviu savaitraðèiui 7 meno dienos. Tainëra antroji jo dalis: panaðiai kaip irkiekvienos ÐMC TV laidos, pasiekianèiosarba ne TV eterá, atveju, pasirinkti kitipradþios taðkai ir nueita kita kryptimi.Kai kurie dalykai abiejuose interviu kar-tojasi, tai nëra atsitiktinumas; „manodarbas yra kartoti“, kartojo RaimundasMalaðauskas Barto Simpsono þodþiusantrajame ÐMC TV realybës metaðouepizode. Apie tai irgi bus kalbama.

Austëja Èepauskaitë: Kà manote apietelevizijà? Aurelija Maknytë: Tai vienas puikiau-siø þmonijos iðradimø. Visiems, kas netik þiûri, bet ir mato.

Ignas Krunglevièius: Taèiau tai ir darvienas árankis manipuliuoti masëmis beigaminti pinigus. Taip pat, þinoma, irkasdieninës informacijos ðaltinis. Visgi,tai neatsiejama realybës dalis.Valentinas Klimaðauskas: Manomanymu, iki ðiol sociopolitinius televizi-jos tikslus geriausiai apibûdina 1973 m.Richardo Serra pareiðkimas, kad „tele-vizija tiekia þmones“ („TelevisionDeliver People“). Kitaip tariant, TVtiekia ne kultûrinio ar pramoninio var-tojimo produktus þiûrovams, betþiûrovus rinkodaros kompanijoms ir kor-poracijoms. Visos televizijos, net irvisuomeninës, kuria savo programø tin-klelius atsiþvelgdamos tik á ðá faktoriø.Ðiuolaikiniø medijø diskurse televizija,vartojant Marshalo McLuhano terminà,tampa vis „karðtesnë“, nepaliekantivietos þiûrovø dalyvavimui.

AÈ: Tuomet ÐMC televizija – ...?VK: Drásèiau manyti, kad ÐMC TV savolaidose elgiasi prieðingai. Ji pristatounikalius meninius produktus, kuriø ete-rio vertë lietuviðkoje TV tinklelio rinkojeneegzistuoja, ir bando „ákaitinti“þiûrovus, o ne televizoriø. Virginija Januðkevièiûtë: Tai Ðiuo-laikinio meno centro projektas televizijoseteriui – parodø salëms alternatyviekspozicijos ir ieðkojimø erdvë. Tai ir nau-jas argumentas sename paveikslo ir rëmodialoge, primenantis, kad rëmas buvoiðrastas vardan mobilumo ir sklaidos.

AÈ: Ar ÐMC TV turi kà nors bendro sutelevizijos principais (tarkime, tokiaismass medijø principais kaip sekso irprievartos eksploatavimas)?Raimundas Malaðauskas: Visa tai, kastiktø normaliai TV laidai, ÐMC TV liekauþ kadro.

Julija Fomina: ÐMC TV vadovaujasi pa-èiais bendriausiais televizijos kûrimo prin-cipais, o paraleliai tyrinëja ir iðranda sa-vo formatà ir konstruoja savo identitetà. AM: Atvirai pasakius, norisi kaþko chuli-ganiðko. Norëèiau padaryti laidà apiepornografijà arba pornografijos laidà.Beje, kaþkoks televizoriaus þiûrovas sykáyra pasakæs, kad televizija dulkinaprotà. Jis turëjo omeny, kad þiûrovastelevizija patiki, pasitiki, o galø galetelevizija giliai ásibrauna á màstymà irvaldo tave, tau paèiam to nelabaisuvokiant.

AÈ: Apie kà (kokios) niekada nebusÐMC TV laidos?RM: Pirmutinës.IK: ÐMC TV gali bûti viskas. Nors abejo-ju, ar kada nors bandysime ákalbinëtipublikà atiduoti savo turtus ir melstisJëzui...

AÈ: O kokià svajojate padaryti?AM: Svajojame padaryti atsarginæ laidà.Be to, norëèiau padaryti laidà, kuri bûtømeninio filmo, rodomo prieð ÐMC TV,tæsinys.RM: 1972 metø ÐMC TV laidostiesioginæ transliacijà. Arba paskutiniojoTV þiûrovo pasaulyje atsisveikinimokalbà – po jos visi taps TV kûrëjais ir TVtaps nebereikalinga kaip industrija.

AÈ: Laidà apie sveikatà?RM: Po virðuje paminëtø laidø – taip.

AÈ: Kà reiðkia teiginys, kad laida yra„pilotinë“? Man asmeniðkai (o greièiau-siai ir daugeliui popkultûros filmøiðugdytø nepriklausomos Lietuvosgyventojø) þodis „pilotinis“ asocijuojasisu lëktuvø pilotais, o dar tiksliau – suautopilotiniu valdymu, kai lakûnai jau

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apsinuodijæ þuvimi, o lëktuvas darskrenda savo iniciatyva. Ðiame kontek-ste pilotinë laida tampa kaþkokio ganastambaus tiesiogiai nekontroliuojamodarinio metafora. Kaip yra ið tiesø?RM: Laida pilotinë, nes: a) tai laida apie(laidà kaip) galimybæ, b) laida kaip gali-mybiø kûrimas ir dizainas. O pilotinëlaida – tai konceptas, leidþiantis galimy-biø kûrimà priimti kaip metodà irtikëjimà. Pilotizmas leidþia iðrasti,palaikyti ir nuolatos kvosti takià tapaty-bæ efemeriðkoje eterio tikrovëje. Kitavertus, kiekviena laida veikia kaip kitos,ateinanèios laidos pilotë, kurioje galibûti realizuoti prieð tai tik numatytiprincipai.VJ: Ið tiesø tai stambus beveik nekon-troliuojamas darinys – tokio TV kanaloatstovø dëmesio, kokio laida sulaukia,kontrole nepavadintume; taigi autopilo-tizmo joje daug, o iniciatyva – mûsøpusëje: laidoje jau esame citavæ þodþiusið Davido Cronenbergo filmo eXistenZ:„turi þaisti þaidimà, kad suþinotum,kodël já þaidi“.

AÈ: Ar gali atsitikti taip, kad pajusite,jog tam tikru metu kiekviena ÐMC TVlaida nustoja bûti „pilotinë“ ir„paskutinë“? Kadangi gyvename api-brëþtame diskurse, anapus kurio niekasneturi reikðmës, tai baigties grësmë,þinoma, reali.RM: Menininko autorinës laidos forma-to ávedimas apsaugo nuo tokios situaci-jos. Tokios laidos koncepcija panaði ámadø industrijos principà, kai dizaineriskuria rûbus kitiems madø namams,pavyzdþiui, Jeanas Paulis Gaultier, gami-nantis Hermes kolekcijà. Mûsø atveju taiskamba „Deimantas Narkevièius (arbaEvaldas Jansas, arba Eglë Rakauskaitë,arba arba arba...) ÐMC televizijai“.AM: Be to, gali bûti ir nepilotinë, irnepaskutinë laida – ir vëlgi tai bûtøkaþkas nauja. Bet kokia mutacija galitapti produktyvia evoliucijos varomàjajëga.

AÈ: Kaip sugalvojate, apie kà bus laida? AM: Plepëdami apie laidas ir apie betkà. Mëgstu stebëti ir krautis viskà ágalvà. Po to, kai kaþko reikia, tiesiog„iðprintinu“ kaip printeris.RM: Tai nëra fabrikinis, industrializuo-tas gaminimas. Laidos neatsiranda lini-jiðkai. Nebûna temos, prie kurios reiktøkaþkà prijungti, nëra konkretaus atvejo,kurá reiktø abstrahuoti – viskas vykstavienu metu paraleliai, tokiu bûdu gami-nasi laidos vizija ir konceptas. Jie visadatinkliðki. VJ: Ruoðdamiesi ðiam interviu kaip tiktarëmës, kad kiekvienos laidos ir projek-to kûrimà galima apibrëþti trimislogikomis: pokalbio, pilotizmo irkelionës (tripologijos). O ávertinus tai,kaip ir kur keliaujame, logikø ásipinakur kas daugiau. Esi klaususi, kodël lai-dose gaminama tiek daug maisto – gal-bût todël, kad tai dar viena

(metodo)loginë paralelë visam projektogamybos procesui; be kita ko, ji leidþiamanyti, kad sàvokai „apie“ procese gali-ma leisti nedalyvauti.

AÈ: Koks tuomet yra jûsø televizijos tikslas?RM: Kaip raðoma ÐMC TV log’e, „Ji sva-joja sujudinti savo þiûrovus, paverstijuos aktyvia publika, galbût netgi laidoskûrëjais. Ji svajoja paþadinti juos ir ási-brauti á bûdingà daugumai TV pro-gramø miegà sukelianèià nesàmonæ,kuri yra visuotinai vadinamapasilinksminimu. Paþadinti kritinesþiûrovo refleksijas bei kûrybiðkumà iriðlikti þiûrima laida.“ Dar galima bûtøteigti, kad tai – pliuralistinë kûrybingu-mo scena, skirtybiø ir kitybiø susitikimoerdvë. Arba kolaboratyviø iðradimø irvaidmenø keitimo servisas. Mylimaretorinë figûra – radikali kontradikcija,pripaþástamas metodas – anarchija,átariamas tikslas – kûrybingas gyvenimas.

AÈ: Ar ÐMC TV reikëtø laikyti politinetelevizija?RM: Ji tokia yra a) tiesiogiai: kità dienàpo JAV prezidento rinkimø rodëmeAntonio Muntadas ir Marshallo Reese’ofilmà Politinës reklamos (drauge suJono Valatkevièiaus ir VirginijausSavukyno komentarais), kuriame atsklei-dþiamos JAV rinkiminio spektaklio tech-nologijos, palaikanèios valdþioje tokiasfigûras kaip George’as W. Bushas; b)netiesiogiai – atviro kodo vizija ir kola-boracija grástas laidos kûrimo modelis –politinis gestas, pristatantis tai, kàAntonio Negri ir Michaelis Hardt’asávardija „multitude“ arba daugiu:„Daugis yra kylanti socialinës organi-zacijos forma. Tai skirtingi þmonës,veikiantys ir dirbantys kartu tokiu bûdu,kuris nepaneigia jø skirtumø, laisvës irautonomijos. Daugis yra aiðkiaidemokratinës prigimties“.Eglë Rakauskaitë: Kiekvienavisuomeninë veikla saugo tam tikrosklasës interesus. Winstonas Churchillis,sakydamas, jog „geriau plepëti negukariauti“, nepaminëjo, kokiom temomplepëti...

AÈ: ÐMC TV dekonstruoja tam tikràáprastà realybæ – bent jau toks atrodoesàs vienas ið jos tikslø. Taèiau kà jûskonstruojate?VJ: Konstruojame bendruomenæ. AM: Konstruojame taip, kad susikon-struotø naujos prasmës, kad parodytimenininkø filmai konstruotø naujus fil-mus, deklaruojamos idëjos – naujas idë-jas, senos laidos – naujas laidas ir pan.Norisi ne tik pateikti informacijà, bet irbûti naujos informacijos atsiradimoprieþastimi.

AÈ: Ar tai laida tam tikrai kultûrineibendruomenei?IK: Þinoma, visos TV laidos yra orien-

tuotos á tam tikras visuomenës grupes –ÐMC TV ne iðimtis.JF: Anot teoretiko Charleso Jenckso,vienas ið pagrindiniø postmodernizmopoþymiø ir strategijø – taip vadinamadvigubo kodavimo sistema, kuomet taspats darinys (ðiuo atveju – TV laida) yrakuriamas taip, kad já galëtø suvokti irávertinti tiek masinis þiûrovas, tiek irtam tikros siauros srities profesionalai.Tokia dvigubo kodavimo principo ikonayra filmas Matrica, vienodai vertinamasir koviniø filmø, ir specialiøjø efektømëgëjø, ir medijø teoretikø, irkultûrologø. ÐMC TV yra (stengiasi bûti)toks postmodernistinis produktas, betkadangi ne visi televizijos þiûrovaiLietuvoje yra postmodernistai, tam tikraauditorijos selekcija neiðvengiama. VJ: Be abejo, norëtøsi bûti Simpsonais irpatikti visiems. ER: Atsitiktiniu laidos þiûrovu gali taptiir maniakas, laukiantis po to einanèioslaidos Duðas, kad perskaitytø savoiðkrypëliðkà þinutæ TV ekrane...

AÈ: Syká laidos kûrimà patikëjotevaikams. Kaip tai atsitiko?RM: Jiems patinka Jeanas LucasGodard’as.AM: Nebûtina visà dëmesá skirti tiksuaugusiems.

AÈ: Kur ir kà daþniausiai filmuojate?RM: Daþniausiai á kadrà pakliûva vaiz-das. Filmuojame ÐMC TV studijoje, kurikeliauja, todël filmuojame visur. AM: Kiek atsimenu, pastaruoju metufilmuojame vien kalbanèias galvas.

AÈ: Kokia yra pagrindinë þinia, kuriàsiunèia ÐMC TV (ar ta „pagrindinë“ þiniayra / gal ji nuolat keièiasi / gal þiniosnëra jokios)?RM: Kiekvienam þiûrovui – po televizijà.Tai senas mûsø sloganas. VJ: Taèiau jis galioja. Mes nesame nau-jienø laida.

Austëja Èepauskaitë yra nepriklausomadailës kritikë

2004-øjø San Paulo bienalëje Lietuvàreprezentavo broliø Mindaugo irGintauto Lukoðaièiø projektasRezistencija.

Laima Kreivytë: Tavo meninë karjeraklostosi greitai ir sëkmingai: tu tarsiiðplaukei ant bangos, nes pieðinys iðpo-puliarëjo palyginti neseniai. Bet tu, kaipsuprantu, pieði nuo labai seniai. Kaiptavo pieðiniai atsiranda ir kas tau svarbupieðiant?

Mindaugas Lukoðaitis: Pieðiu jau nuotrejø metø. Niekada net nemàsèiau, arnoriu pieðti – visada pieðiau. Pats paiðy-

mas yra labai malonus uþsiëmimas – tuatsisëdi patogiai, pasismailini pieðtukà irdirbi. Tai toks lengvas atpalaiduojantisuþsiëmimas.

LK: Taèiau tavo darbø temos – labairimtos: Lietuvos istorija, partizanai. Kaiprenkiesi temas – spontaniðkai ar iðanksto numatydamas þinià, kurià noripraneðti?

ML: Èia panaðiai kaip su minëtuiðplaukimu ant bangos. Aplink vykstan-tys karai – Èeèënijoje, Irake – tai taippat banga, tik þiaurumo. Mano tiesiogbuvo laiku reflektuota. Tai ne atsitikti-numas, o natûrali reakcija á ðiuolaikinágyvenimà. Partizanø tema taip ir atsira-do – reaguojant á tarptautinæ situacijà,galvojant ir diskutuojant, – juk ir mestokià patirtá turëjom.

LK: Gyvai reaguoji á ávykius pasaulyje, átai, kas ið tikrøjø aktualu ir jaudina. Betrenkiesi ne video ar fotografijà, o imipaprastà pieðtukà ir paiðai savo istorijas...

ML: Galiu papasakoti, kaip atsiradoRezistencijos pieðiniø serija. Pirmiausiapristaèiau temà, kuri tiko ir patiko, tadapradëjau dirbti su paèia idëja. Pieðiaueskizus neþinodamas, kokio formato taibus darbas. Laikas bëgo ir sprendimàpadiktavo iðaugusi pieðiniø krûva. Manir paèiam buvo netikëta – pasirodo,rezistencijà jau nupaiðiau, nors iðpradþiø galvojau apie instaliacijà.

LK: Pakalbëkime apie svarbiausius ávy-kius, kurie þymi tavo karjerà. Pradëtiturbût reikëtø nuo tavo veiklos grupëjeBlizgë ir jûsø parodos Meno projektøstudijos galerijoje 2002-aisiais. Kitaismetais jau dalyvavote jaunimo menofestivalyje Maskvoje, po to sekë lietuviøir latviø menininkø paroda 2 Show Ðiuo-laikinio meno centre ir galiausiai –praeitø metø San Paulo bienalë.

ML: Vienas ið grupës Blizgë credo buvosiekis maksimaliai iðsilaikyti under-groundo lygyje, grupë veikë kaip kûry-binis poligonas. Ilgainiui idëjosiðsikvëpë, viskas ëjo á pabaigà, todëlnusprendëm iðtraukti darbus ir parodyti.Po parodos Meno projektø studijosgalerijoje kuratoriai mus ásidëmëjo,buvom tarp tø jaunøjø, kuriuos pakvietëá 2 Show parodà. Bet su Rezistencijapajudëjau jau visiðkai atskirai. Grupëiðsiskirstë, ir að nuëjau savu keliu. Opasiûlymas dalyvauti San Paulo bienalë-je buvo netikëtas – juokavom, kadskrendam á mënulá.

LK: San Paulas – tai skrydis á mënulá?Kita vertus, tai pietø pusrutulis. Ar taipstipriai viskas apsivertë?

ML: Man paèiam niekas neapsivertë.Rasti kà nors naujo sunku, nes globali-zacija daug „nuveikë“ vienodindamaskirtingø þemynø kultûras. Bienalëjepastebëjau, kad meno kalboje daug„reglamentuoto vaizdavimo“, kaip ani-macijoje – judesys sukuriamas tam tikruapibrëþtu bûdu. Nauja ið tiesø yra patysistoriniai pasaulio ávykiai, kataklizmai,ðiandienos apokaliptiðkumas. Mane ðiojekelionëje labiausiai jaudino tai, kad esunetoli þemës plauèiø – Amazoniø! Ir dar– ant ðono kaip laivelis danguje gulintismënulis, kai ne pilnatis...

LK: Kaip atrodë tavo darbai bienalëskontekste? Ar sulaukei kokiø norsatsiliepimø?

ML: Prie mûsø su broliu darbø peratidarymà bûriavosi daug þmoniø, ðaliabuvæs paviljonas tokio dëmesio nesu-laukë. Nors sunku pasakyti, ko þmonësbûriuojasi. Dar kabindamas darbuspastebëjau, kaip reaguoja eiliniaidarbininkai. Þiûrëjo susidomëjæ, norsiðkabinta buvo tik pusë darbø, paskuipraeidami tapðnojo per petá. Tai buvonatûraliausia reakcija ir ji mane þavëjo.

LK: Tavo pieðiniai labai gerai ásitaisæ antribos tarp meno ir gyvenimo, nes, kaipminëjai, ir paprastiems þmonëms yrasuvokiami, ir meno pasaulyje archajiðkosformos ágauna visiðkai naujas galias,savità vietà tarp visø kitø naratyvø. Manatrodo, kad tai labai stiprus bruoþas,nes ðiuolaikinis menas neretai virstavisiðkai elitiniu, o dabar gráþtama prieto, kas yra gyvenimas. Ar pastebëjaidaugiau panaðiø darbø San Paulo bie-nalëje?

ML: Þiûrint bienalæ vis uþkliûdavo, kadkoncepcija ir pats darbas daþnai yra du

skirtingi dalykai. Daug grynø formø,savitiksliø idëjø. Didþioji dalis bienalësdarbø neturëjo jokio ryðio su pasauliu irsupanèiomis problemomis, jie labiaupriminë saloniná paðnekesá apie malo-nius dalykus. Nors panaðiø á mano dar-bus taip pat buvo, nes patys kuratoriailabiau orientavosi ne tiek á video, kiek á„rankø darbo“ kûrinius. Keista, betneatsimenu, kad kokie nors darbai bûtøsuþavëjæ.

LK: Kà tau paèiam reiðkia rankø darbas,kiek svarbi medþiaga, kiek svarbussumanymas? Jei mëgintum apibrëþtisavo kûrybos receptà, kokios bûtø josudedamosios dalys?

ML: Be abejo, materijos ávaldymas –popierius, pieðtukas, kuris visiðkai taupaklûsta. O kitas dalykas – bûsenadirbant, gaivalas. Emocija, kurià turiiðlaikyti, kol pabaigi darbà.

LK: Nevadini to ákvëpimu?

ML: Tai nëra ákvëpimas, tai greièiaumaksimalus jëgø átempimas, panaðiai,kaip norint perðokti kokià nors kliûtá.Tai ðuolis, o ne ákvëpimas. Darbas savemobilizuojant – tiek vaizduotæ, kurinuolat turi bûti atðvieþinta ir dirbti visupajëgumu, tiek rankà, kuri negalisudrebëti. Viskas turi veikti vienu metuir visu pajëgumu.

LK: Kiek laiko gali tokià bûsenàiðlaikyti? Kiek trunka pieðinio sukûri-mas?

ML: Rezistencijà pieðiau visà mënesá,nuo ðeðiø vakaro iki aðtuoniø ryto neat-sitraukdamas, tik su pertraukomis kavaiir cigaretei. Bûna, kad pieðinys atsirandaper 15 sekundþiø, bet po to jautiesi kaip

8 9

Laimos Kreivytës interviu su Mindaugu Lukoðaièiu

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LK: Studijuoji skulptûrà. Kiek tau svarbilietuviðkos skulptûros mokykla arbaatskiri dëstytojai? Ar veikia tavo kaipskulptoriaus patirtis kuriant darbus?

ML: Yra svarbiø skulptoriø, tokiø kaipMindaugas Navakas, kuris uþkreèia savoenergija. O á skulptûrà stojau ne dël to,kad labai mëgèiau dirbti su metalu armedþiu. Þinojau, kad gausiu erdviniomàstymo ágûdþiø. Ir ðiaip skulptûrameno pasaulyje diktuoja madas, vadi-nasi, yra daugiausiai energijos turintisritis.

LK: Galbût tai labiau tinka kalbant apievieðàsias erdves. Bet þiûrint plaèiau,dominuoja kaip tik ekraninës meno for-mos, kurios pajëgia konkuruoti su kitaisið ekranø plûstanèiais dalykais...

ML: Nustelbia turbût ekraninio menokiekis. Audiovizualiniai menai turi ypa-tingà psichologiná poveiká, jie pasiekiaklausà ir regà be tavo valios. O skulp-tûrinis objektas, kuris yra tûrinis,reikalauja pastangø. Skulptûrinis objek-tas yra tûrinis ir realus, realus paèiusavo buvimo principu, taip kaip ir tu esitûrinis. Skulptûriná objektà patiri tiesio-giai, ne per psichikà, èia veikia trauka,panaðiai kaip tarp mënulio ir þemës.

LK: Á San Paulà vaþiavai kartu su broliu.Tavo brolis taip pat skulptorius, studijasbaigæs anksèiau uþ tave, sukûræs pamin-klà Þemaièiui. Broliø kûrybos fenomenas– tai dirbtinis, bienalei sukurtas darinys,ar jûs vienas kità papildote?

ML: Bienalës darbo be brolio dalyvavi-mo að net nelabai ásivaizduoju. Ið tikrøjøvyko lygiavertiðkas bendradarbiavimas,ir jis buvo sëkmingas, nes rezistencijostemà mes suprantame panaðiai. Ðiaipesame labai skirtingi, bet sutariamegerai. Aiðku, darbas nebûtø pavykæs, jeiviskà bûtume pradëjæ nuo nulio. Tuojbûtø iðryðkëjæ vizijø skirtumai. Ið esmësað esu prieð kolektyvinius darbus, nesesu iðëjæs tokio darbo mokyklà kartu suBlizge. Supratau, kad menininkas turibûti vienas ir kurti jis taip pat turi vienas.

LK: Koks pastarojo meto ávykis tavelabiausiai sukrëtë?

ML: Kiekvienà dienà kas nors sukreèia.Blogio formos skirtingos, ir sunku iðskir-ti vienà, o nekreipti dëmesio á kità...Man ádomu viskas, kas vyksta su þmogu-mi, riba, kada tampama þmogumi irkada jis jau nebe þmogus. Trumpai ta-riant, moralumo problema.

LK: Galima sakyti, kad menininkas yraribø tyrinëtojas?

ML: Kiekvienas þmogus, nebûtinaimenininkas, yra tyrinëtojas. Yra þmoniø,kurie nepriklauso nei meno, nei jokiaikitai humanitarinei srièiai, bet yratyrinëtojai. Tik tà sunku nustatyti, nesjie nepateikia produkto.

Laima Kreivytë yra dailës kritikë,savaitraðèio 7 meno dienos dailës

skyriaus redaktorë

Vasario 27-àjà, sekmadiená Charlie’sKaufmanas, Michelis Gondry ir Pierre’asBismuthas laimëjo 2005 metøAkademijos apdovanojimà uþ geriausiàscenarijø. Varþësi filmai Aviatorius,Viešbutis Ruanda, Nerealieji ir VeraDrake, Oskaras atiteko Jausmø galiai(Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind),o Pierre’as Bismuthas buvo vainikuotaspirmuoju Oskarà laimëjusiu ðiuolaikiniovizualiojo meno atstovu. Uþtarnautasvieno ðviesiausiø ðiuolaikinio menoprotø, konceptualiojo ir vizualiojo menopajëgumo pripaþinimas!

Jausmø galia – tai pasakojimas apieporà (Jimas Carrey ir Kate Winslet),kurie santykiams apkartus bando iðtrintivienas kità ið savo atminties, taèiau tikper netektá suvokia, nuo ko vël reikëtøpradëti.

Ceremonijos metu aptikau save besi-meldþiantá Holivudui, kad tik Pierre’aslaimëtø ir turëtø ðokti ant scenos,laikyti iðkëlæs garsiàjà statulëlæ ir ðyp-sotøsi milijonams viso pasaulio þiûrovø.Mano malda buvo iðklausyta.

Kelios dienos po jo pergalës mudu suPierre’u susitikome Niujorke,nedideliame prancûziðkame restoranëly-

je Houston gatvëje. Mëgavomësprieðpieèiais, juokavome apie gyvenimàir aptarinëjome Oskaro reikalus.

Gabrielis Lesteris: Taigi, tu laimëjai!

Pierre’as Bismuthas: Statulëlë, stovin-ti ant þidinio atbrailos Briuselyje, kas-dien lyg ir primena man, jog laimëjau.Kartais tarsi primirðtu.

GL: Tikëjaisi laimëti?

PB: Negalëjau në ásivaizduoti, kadgalëèiau bûti netgi nominuotas, ma-niau, kad nominuos vieninteláKaufmanà. Bet suþinojæs apie nominaci-jà, iðkart supratau, kad laimësime. Tikdalyvaudamas ten, ceremonijoje,bûdamas vienoje patalpoje su SydneyLumet, Al Pacino, Clintu Eastwoodu...stebëdamas juos scenoje, pamaniau:„Tai neámanoma!“

GL: Kada buvai nominuotas? Kadapirmà kartà iðgirdai, kad gali laimëtiOskarà?

PB: Gavau vienà kità laiðkà ið draugø,kurie sveikino su Jausmø galios nomi-nacija, taèiau nesupratau, kad tai apiemane asmeniðkai. Tiesà sakant, buvauásiutæs, nes praëjus ðeðiems mënesiamsvis dar nebuvau gavæs filmo DVD kopi-jos. Galvojau sau: „Puiku! Filmas nomi-nuotas, o að vis dar neturiu në vienos jokopijos.“ Pirmà kartà ið tiesø supratauesàs nominuotas, kai gavau laiðkà iðFocus Features [gamybos kompanija,išleidusi Jausmø galià - red.] apie tai,kad esu nominuotas ir netrukus gausiuþiniø ið Kino meno ir mokslo akademijosdël pakvietimo ir kelionës.

GL: Ar tai jau suþadino koká ypatingà

susidomëjimà tavo kûryba? Straipsniai,parodos?

PB: Kiek per anksti kalbëti, kaip taipaveiks poþiûrá á mano kûrybà, bet,þinoma, susidomëjimas yra. Daug menopasaulio þmoniø apie tai kalba ir teisë-tai mano, kad apdovanojimas skirtas irmeno bendruomenei apskritai. Manau,tai nuostabu. Beje, viena scenos deko-racijø dalis labai priminë AngelosBullock darbus.

GL: Ar tai privertë kitaip vertinti savokûrybà?

PB: Ne.

GL: Papasakok apie pirminæ idëjà, kaipji atsirado?

PB: Kaip daþnai bûna, nerûpestingaikalbantis telefonu su draugu apie meilæir seksà.

GL: Kaip seki idëjø eigà ir kaip atsirenkinaudingas?

PB: Esu labai netvarkingas ir nenuosek-lus; tik kilus idëjai, iðkart stengiuosipririðti jà prie ko nors tikro. Tai gali bûtibet kas: maþas pieðinukas, paveikslas arsakinys. Nemëgstu laikyti idëjø gryno-sios koncepcijos lygmenyje. Tiesàsakant, netikiu idëjomis. Sugalvoji kànors iðvirti, o po to kyla klausimas, kàiðvirti, kaip iðvirti ir kam išvirti? Ir taiptoliau.

GL: Ar Michelis tuoj pat pagavo idëjà?

PB: Taip, kas man Michelyje ir patinka,jis, kaip ir mudu, labai nekantrus ir, tikiðkilus idëjai, iðkart siekia jà kuo grei-èiau ágyvendinti. Kartais norëèiau, kadmeno þmonës daþniau bûtø tokie. Kaikurie tokie ir yra, aiðku. Kai susitikau suHaroldu Szeemannu dël Venecijos bie-nalës, jis nebuvo apsisprendæs, ar tinkujo parodai, ir tuomet að parodþiaunedidelá popieriaus lapà su þodþiøþaidimëliu, pokðtà pavadinimo Þmonijosplato tema, ir jis tepasakë: „tai puiku,daryk“. Kità kartà að sutikau já jau tikinstaliuodamas darbà.

GL: Kaip vyko jûsø su Micheliu san-doris?

PB: Paraðiau pusæ puslapio apiepagrindinæ siuþeto linijà ir po dviejøsavaièiø gavau kontraktà dël siuþetoteisiø pardavimo.

GL: Kà manai apie Charlie’io atliktàidëjos adaptacijà?

PB: Ji labai gera. Tiesà sakant, sunkupasakyti, kas ten jo ir kas Michelio. Esutikras, kad jie dirbo labai glaudþiai ben-

dradarbiaudami. Bet pirminë manoidëja visiðkai iðsaugota.

GL: Kuo tau paèiam svarbi ta idëja?

PB: Manau, visad kritiðkai ir galbûtciniðkai vertinau tai, kaip esame linkætikëti technologija ir mokslu ir emocinesproblemas spræsti techniniu ar pragma-tiniu bûdu. Antra svarbi mintis buvo ta,kad kà bedarytume, turime didá talentàsusikurti problemas greièiau nei suge-bame jas iðspræsti. Tai man ypaè patinka– tai, kaip mûsø smegenys gali viskàkaip nors netikëtai pakreipti.

GL: Kokie buvo tavo santykiai suMicheliu? Papasakok, kaip jam perduo-davai idëjas. Ir kaip savo darbe jisperteikë tavo poþiûrá?

PB: Jis tiesiog prasitarë, kad neturijokio jam patinkanèio scenarijaus, bet aðnemaniau galás jam padëti. Jis tiesiogkaip visada daug kalbëjo ir, matyt, manpasakë kà nors, kas paskatino manesugalvoti ðità idëjà. Ir viskas! Michelisvisad domëjosi mano darbais ar, tiksliau,mano darbø logika. Ðiaip ar taip aðsuprantu, kad daugumai manpatinkanèiø menininkø ið esmës nerûpirezultatas. Jei kûrinys turi gerà motyvàatsirasti, tai jau pakankamai gerai.

GL: Šiuo metu bendradarbiauji su juorengdamas parodà. Apie kà ji?

PB: Mes bandome kartu daryti parodàjau daug metø. Tai sudëtinga, nes màs-tome panaðiai, bet turime ne tas paèiasreferencijas ir, kas dar svarbiau, ne tàpaèià estetikà. Taèiau galiausiaiatradome procesà (mes abu màstomeproceso kategorijomis), kuris patiko, irnusprendëme já atlikti. Jis vël yra apieiðtrynimà.

GL: Kaip patiko Oskaro ceremonija? Irsekundës nuo „Oskaras atitenka“ ikiperskaitant tavo vardà?

PB: Kaip ir gali ásivaizduoti, viskas buvokartu ir neátikëtina, ir labai banalu.Suvoki, kad visiems ten susirinkusiemsþmonëms visa tai yra, sakyèiau, nor-malu. Jie visi paþásta vienas kità, jienuolat rengia tokias ceremonijas.Galëjau stebëti, kaip þmonës nuobo-dþiavo ar buvo nusiminæ, ar nelaimingi,tam tikras detales. Nedidelius tokiopobûdþio kasdieninius dalykus. Buvaulyg paskendæs tame. Stebëdamas juosto-je, patyriau þymiai didesná áspûdá.Pamaniau, kad atrodo þymiai ástabiau,nei man bûnant ten. Dël paskelbimo: taibuvo tiesiog neátikëtina. Tik màsèiau: artai ámanoma?

GL: Gal papasakotum plaèiau, kàtuomet màstei?

PB: Galvojau: „Visa tai praëjau ne tam,kad pralaimëèiau“; ir kartu negalëjaupatikëti, kad tai tiesa. Labai keistamatyti Clintà Eastwoodà, MorganàFreemanà, Dustinà Hofmanà þiûrint átave; paprastai bûna atvirkðèiai.

GL: Kaip þmonës reagavo á tai, kadlaimëjai?

PB: Mano galva, Amerikoje, jei þmonësir neþino tiksliai, kodël laimëjai, jie þinoturá apie tai pasvarstyti. Visi buvo malo-nûs man ir laimingi. Amerikoje sëkmæpatiri visiškai kitaip nei Europoje.Manau, Europoje sëkmë visad yratruputá átartina.

GL: Ar galvoji apie antrà flirtà suHolivudu?

PB: Kaip þinai, að mëgstu dirbti irsusidurti su naujais dalykais, visad einuten, kur, þmoniø nuomone, gerai dirbu,bet að myliu menà ir myliu uþ tai, kasyra labai tolima pagrindinëms Holivudotaisyklëms. Matysim.

GL: Kokie bus 2005-ieji?

PB: Ketinu vesti nepaprastà moterá, odël visa kita – tikiuosi labai daug dirbtidrauge su ádomiais þmonëmis.

GL: Paskutinis klausimas – kà galipasakyti savo gerbëjams Lietuvoje?

PB: Vilniø myliu ypatingai ir iki ðiolsakau, kad geriausias prisiminimas iðmano darytø parodø – tai drauge suJonathanu Monku surengta Ðiuolaikiniomeno centre, kuruota RaimundoMalaðausko. Tai tiesiog buvo geriausiakûrybinë patirtis, mano turëta darantparodà.

Pierre’as Bismuthas yra Oskaro laureatas, gyvena ir dirba Briuselyje.

Gabrielis Lesteris yra olandømenininkas, gyvena ir dirba Briuselyje irNiujorke. Jis yra lankæsis Vilniuje keletà

kartø ir eksponavo savo darbus Ðiuolaikinio meno centro projekteOlandø biuras: ðiuolaikinio meno

projektai ið Nyderlandø(2004 lapkritis–2005 sausis).

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ydam

a ki

tas

dem

okra

tijo

s kr

ypti

s.

Popu

lizm

o pa

rodo

se p

rist

atom

i nau

ji 40

men

inin

kø ir

men

inin

kø g

rupi

ø da

rbai

ir p

roje

ktai

, ágy

vend

inti

pasi

telk

us áv

airi

as m

enin

es s

trat

egija

s. P

arod

as ly

di d

vi ð

iate

ma

iðle

isto

s kn

ygos

, lai

krað

tis-

paro

dø g

idas

bei

pas

kait

øpr

ogra

ma.

Kur

ator

iai:

Lars

as B

anga

s La

rsen

as, C

rist

ina

Ricu

pero

irN

icol

aus

Scha

fhau

sena

s.Pa

naši

u m

etu

Popu

lizm

opa

rodo

s vy

ksta

ir š

iose

vie

tose

:N

acio

nalin

is m

eno,

arc

hite

ktûr

os ir

diz

aino

muz

ieju

s,O

slas

, 15/

04/2

005–

02/0

9/20

05St

edel

ijk M

useu

m, A

mst

erda

mas

, 29/

04/2

005–

04/0

9/20

05

Fran

kfur

ter

Kun

stve

rein

, Fra

nkfu

rtas

pri

e M

aino

,10

/05/

2005

–04/

09/2

005

EMIS

SIO

N 2

005:

AU

DRI

US

NO

VIC

KA

S: P

ASS

WO

RKS

07/0

4/20

05–0

8/06

/200

5

Sinc

e 20

04 a

ser

ies

of p

erso

nal e

xhib

itio

ns E

MIS

SIO

N in

trod

uces

the

mos

t im

port

ant

Lith

uani

an a

rtis

ts w

ho d

urin

g th

e pr

evio

usde

cade

hav

e co

nsti

tute

d a

new

lang

uage

of

cont

empo

rary

Lith

uani

an a

rt. T

hese

art

ists

hav

e re

ceiv

ed a

ric

h at

tent

ion

from

the

crit

ics;

the

y ha

ve p

arti

cipa

ted

in t

he im

port

ant

loca

l con

-te

mpo

rary

art

exh

ibit

ions

and

hav

e re

pres

ente

d Li

thua

nia

abro

ad o

n nu

mer

ous

occa

sion

s. A

long

wit

h th

e ac

tivi

ties

of

the

Cont

empo

rary

Art

Cen

tre,

the

y ha

ve c

reat

ed a

sol

id p

latf

orm

for

the

deve

lopm

ent

of t

he n

ew g

ener

atio

ns o

f ar

tist

s.

In t

he t

wo

inst

alla

tion

s an

d a

vide

o w

ork

Nov

icka

s ex

amin

esth

e na

ture

of

conn

ecti

ons

betw

een

frag

men

tary

per

sona

l, cu

l-tu

ral,

soci

al, a

nd n

atio

nal i

dent

itie

s; a

s w

ell a

s th

e fr

agm

ente

dqu

alit

y of

the

sym

bolic

con

stru

ctio

ns u

sed

to r

epre

sent

the

m.

Mor

eove

r, th

e w

orks

que

stio

n th

e le

giti

mac

y of

sys

tem

s th

atcr

eate

the

se id

enti

ties

Tota

l eva

cuat

ion?

2005

(Em

erge

ncy

evac

uati

on s

chem

es o

fLi

thua

nian

inst

itut

ions

for

cul

ture

and

edu

cati

on, t

unne

l 5.5

mlo

ng)

Tric

olou

r se

ts20

05 1

0 fl

ags

(of

Beni

n, B

oliv

ia, B

urki

na F

aso,

Cam

eroo

n, C

ongo

, Eth

iopi

a, G

uine

a, L

ithu

ania

, Mal

i, Se

nega

l).

ID20

04 D

VD

5’

POPU

LISM

08/0

4/20

05–0

8/06

/200

5

In s

prin

g 20

05 N

IFCA

, the

Nor

dic

Inst

itut

e fo

r Co

ntem

pora

ryA

rt, o

rgan

ises

Pop

ulis

m, a

n ex

hibi

tion

pro

ject

in f

our

Euro

pean

citi

es e

xplo

ring

the

rel

atio

nshi

ps b

etw

een

cont

empo

rary

art

and

curr

ent

popu

list

cult

ural

and

pol

itic

al t

rend

s.

The

Popu

lism

proj

ect

trie

s to

for

mul

ate

conc

rete

spa

ces

for

expe

rien

ce, r

efle

ctio

n, a

nd d

iscu

ssio

n lin

ked

to a

con

tem

pora

rypo

litic

al a

nd c

ultu

ral p

heno

men

on t

hat

is a

s co

mpl

ex a

s it

isw

ides

prea

d. T

here

is li

ttle

dou

bt t

hat

popu

list

mov

emen

ts g

ain

larg

e pa

rts

of t

heir

per

suas

ive

pow

er f

rom

the

ir a

bilit

y to

pla

yon

aff

ects

and

des

ires

tha

t ar

e su

ppos

edly

exe

mpt

fro

m t

hepr

oced

ures

tha

t m

ark

offi

cial

dem

ocra

tic

polit

ics.

At

this

leve

lan

art

exh

ibit

ion

can

prov

ide

a sp

ace

that

dif

fers

fro

m t

hat

ofot

her

publ

ic f

orum

s. T

he p

oint

of

depa

rtur

e is

the

idea

tha

t th

eaf

fect

s an

d de

sire

s th

at c

hara

cter

ise

popu

list

polit

ics

are

not

nece

ssar

ily s

epar

ate

from

the

one

s th

at f

ind

expr

essi

on in

the

sphe

re o

f ar

t. K

ey q

uest

ions

are

how

for

ms

of p

opul

ism

–w

heth

er le

ft w

ing

or r

ight

win

g, p

rogr

essi

ve o

r re

acti

onar

y –

prom

ote

them

selv

es a

nd t

heir

que

st f

or m

ass

appe

al t

hrou

gh a

styl

isti

c an

d ae

sthe

tic

cons

ciou

snes

s. T

he p

olit

ical

imag

inat

ion

of v

isua

l art

can

get

invo

lved

in t

hese

eco

nom

ies

of s

igns

and

desi

res,

and

add

ress

cur

rent

cul

tura

l dis

cuss

ions

thr

ough

pro

-po

sals

for

oth

er d

irec

tion

s fo

r de

moc

racy

.

Popu

lism

incl

udes

new

wor

ks a

nd p

roje

cts

by 4

0 in

tern

atio

nal

arti

sts

and

arti

st g

roup

s, b

ring

ing

toge

ther

cha

lleng

ing

wor

ksin

a m

ulti

tude

of

arti

stic

str

ateg

ies.

The

Pop

ulis

mex

hibi

tion

sar

e ac

com

pani

ed b

y tw

o bo

oks,

a t

ablo

id e

xhib

itio

n gu

ide

and

lect

ure

prog

ram

s on

pop

ulis

m.

Cura

tors

: Lar

s Ba

ng L

arse

n, C

rist

ina

Ricu

pero

and

Nic

olau

sSc

hafh

ause

n.Th

e ex

hibi

tion

s ta

ke p

lace

in p

aral

lel a

t th

e fo

llow

ing

venu

es:

Nat

iona

l Mus

eum

of

Art

, Arc

hite

ctur

e an

d D

esig

n, O

slo,

15

/04/

2005

–02/

09/2

005

Sted

elijk

Mus

eum

, Am

ster

dam

, 29/

04/2

005–

04/0

9/20

05Fr

ankf

urte

r K

unst

vere

in, F

rank

furt

A.M

.,10/

05/2

005–

04/0

9/20

05

ÐMC/

poka

lbia

i kav

inëj

e

Bala

ndþi

o m

ënes

á ŠM

C pr

aded

a po

kalb

iø s

u ga

rsia

is t

arpt

au-

tini

o ly

gio

inte

lekt

uala

is c

iklà

. Kie

kvie

no m

ënes

io p

irm

à tr

eèia

-di

ená k

vieè

iam

e at

eiti

á ŠM

C ka

vinæ

ir ás

ijung

ti á

disk

usijà

sva

r-bi

ausi

ais

kult

ûros

, eko

nom

ikos

ir p

olit

ikos

kla

usim

ais,

sus

ijusi

ais

su š

iuol

aiki

nio

men

o kû

ryba

, pre

zent

acija

ir r

ecep

cija

.ŠM

C/Po

kalb

iai k

avin

ëje

yra

galim

ybë

susi

paþi

nti s

u pl

ates

niai

sši

uola

ikin

ës k

ultû

ros

kont

ekst

ais,

kur

iuos

e ve

ikia

Šiu

olai

kini

om

eno

cent

ras.

ŠMC/

Poka

lbia

i kav

inëj

e –

patr

aukl

iaus

ia e

duka

cijo

s vi

eta

Viln

iuje

, kur

tuo

pat

met

u ga

lite

pava

lgyt

i, iš

gert

i ir

padi

sku-

tuot

i api

e m

enà.

Reng

iniø

cik

là o

rgan

izuo

ja Š

MC

ir Š

MC

kavi

në.

Bala

ndþi

o 6,

tre

èiad

ieni

s, 1

8.00

Die

teri

s Le

sage

’as

– dë

sto

ir v

adov

auja

mok

slin

iam

s ty

rim

ams

Aud

iovi

zual

iniø

ir p

erfo

rman

so m

enø

kate

droj

e RI

TS(E

rasm

usho

gesc

hool

, Bri

usel

is)

bei y

ra v

izit

uoja

ntis

pro

feso

rius

Pict

Zw

art

inst

itut

e, W

illem

o de

Koo

ning

aka

dem

ijoje

Rote

rdam

e. R

ašo

kult

ûros

filo

sofi

jos

ir p

olit

inës

filo

sofi

jos

klau

sim

ais.

Yra

išle

idæs

kny

gas:

Dis

cour

se o

n Re

sist

ance

: Pol

itic

sin

tim

es o

f gl

obal

izat

ion,

Am

ster

dam

/Ant

wer

p,M

eule

nhof

f/M

ante

au, 2

004;

Blac

k Th

ough

ts o

n Be

lgiu

m,

Ant

wer

p, D

edal

us, 1

998.

Vie

nas

iš s

udar

ytoj

ø: P

opul

ism

e,Be

rche

m, E

PO, 2

004;

The

Nat

ion

as a

Mus

eum

: fro

m C

olon

ialis

mto

Glo

balis

atio

n, B

russ

els,

Yve

s G

evae

rt, 1

999.

Geg

uþës

4, t

reèi

adie

nis,

18.0

0Va

ness

a Jo

an M

ülle

r –

Fran

kfur

to K

unst

vere

inku

rato

rë. V

iena

išPo

puliz

mo

paro

dos

kura

-to

riø,

The

Pop

ulis

m R

eade

rre

dakc

inës

kol

egijo

s na

rë ir

stra

ipsn

iø a

utor

ë. K

uruo

tos

paro

dos:

The

refo

reBe

auti

ful,

2005

; Ado

rno:

The

Poss

ibili

ty o

f th

eIm

poss

ible

,200

3; n

on-

plac

es,2

002.

Pub

likuo

jast

raip

sniu

s pe

riod

inëj

esp

audo

je ir

kat

alog

uose

.

Birþ

elio

1, t

reèi

adie

nis,

18.0

0D

r. N

iels

as W

erbe

ris

– so

cial

inës

isto

rijo

s ir

kul

tûro

s pr

ofes

oriu

sG

erm

anis

tiko

s in

stit

ute,

Ruh

ro u

nive

rsit

ete

Boch

ume.

Mok

slin

iøty

rinë

jimø

srit

is –

XV

II-X

X a

. vok

ieèi

ø ir

Eur

opos

lite

ratû

ros

isto

rija

, XV

II ir

XV

III a

. poe

zija

, XV

III-X

IX a

. san

dûro

s es

teti

ka.

Nau

jaus

i tyr

inëj

imai

api

ma

liter

atûr

à na

ujøj

ø m

edijø

(ki

no, t

ele-

vizi

jos,

hip

erte

kstø

) ko

ntek

ste

ir v

okie

èiø

geop

olit

inio

iden

tite

-to

dis

kurs

à pr

aded

ant

XIX

a. v

idur

iu. N

auja

usio

s pu

blik

acijo

s:Lo

ve a

s a

Nov

el,F

ink,

Mün

chen

, 200

3;Co

mm

unic

atio

n/M

edia

/Pow

er, S

uhrk

amp,

Fra

nkfu

rt, 2

002.

CAC/

Café

Tal

ks

Com

men

cing

in A

pril,

the

CA

C is

laun

chin

g a

seri

es o

fta

lks

by le

adin

g in

tern

atio

nal i

ntel

lect

uals

. On

the

firs

tW

edne

sday

of

ever

y m

onth

com

e to

the

CA

C Ca

fé a

ndjo

in t

he d

iscu

ssio

n ab

out

topi

cal i

nter

nati

onal

issu

es in

cult

ure,

eco

nom

ics,

and

pol

itic

s im

pact

ing

on t

he p

ro-

duct

ion,

pre

sent

atio

n, a

nd r

ecep

tion

of

cont

empo

rary

art.

CA

C/Ca

fé T

alks

are

an

oppo

rtun

ity

to f

ind

out

mor

eab

out

the

expa

nded

fie

ld o

f co

ntem

pora

ry c

ultu

re in

whi

ch t

he C

AC

oper

ates

.

CAC/

Café

Tal

ks a

re V

ilniu

s’ c

oole

st c

lass

room

in w

hich

you

can

eat,

dri

nk, l

iste

n, a

nd a

rgue

abo

ut a

rt.

CAC/

Café

Tal

ks is

a p

artn

ersh

ip b

etw

een

the

CAC

and

the

CAC

Café

.

18.0

0 W

edne

sday

6 A

pril

Die

ter

Lesa

geis

a le

ctur

er a

nd r

esea

rch

coor

dina

tor

atth

e D

epar

tmen

t fo

r A

udio

visu

al a

nd P

erfo

rmin

g A

rts

RITS

(Er

asm

usho

gesc

hool

Bru

ssel

s) a

nd v

isit

ing

prof

esso

rat

the

Pie

t Zw

art

Inst

itut

e of

the

Will

em D

e K

ooni

ng A

cade

mie

in R

otte

rdam

. Les

age

publ

ishe

s m

ainl

y w

ithi

n th

e fi

elds

of

phi-

loso

phy

of c

ultu

re a

nd p

olit

ical

phi

loso

phy.

He

is t

he a

utho

r of

seve

ral b

ooks

incl

udin

g: D

isco

urse

on

Resi

stan

ce: P

olit

ics

inti

mes

of

glob

aliz

atio

n, A

mst

erda

m/A

ntw

erp,

Meu

lenh

off/

Man

teau

, 200

4;Bl

ack

Thou

ghts

On

Belg

ium

,A

ntw

erp,

Ded

alus

, 199

8; a

nd w

as c

o-ed

itor

of

Popu

lism

e,Be

rche

m, E

PO, 2

004;

and

The

Nat

ion

as a

Mus

eum

: fro

mCo

loni

alis

m t

oG

loba

lisat

ion,

Bru

ssel

s,Yv

es G

evae

rt, 1

999

18.0

0 W

edne

sday

4

May

Vane

ssa

Joan

Mül

ler

iscu

rato

r at

Fra

nkfu

rter

Kun

stve

rein

. She

is o

nth

e cu

rato

rial

boa

rdof

the

Pop

ulis

mex

hi-

biti

on a

nd t

he e

dito

ri-

al c

omm

itte

e of

The

Popu

lism

Rea

der

tow

hich

she

con

trib

uted

an e

ssay

. Mül

ler

cura

t-ed

exh

ibit

ions

suc

h as

Ther

efor

e Be

auti

ful

2005

, Ado

rno:

The

Pos

sibi

lity

of t

he Im

poss

ible

2003

, and

non

-pl

aces

2002

. She

pub

lishe

s re

gula

rly

for

pres

s an

d ca

talo

gues

.

18.0

0 W

edne

sday

1 J

une

Dr.

Nie

ls W

erbe

r ho

lds

the

posi

tion

of

Prof

esso

r of

Soc

ial

His

tory

and

Cul

ture

at

the

Inst

itut

für

G

erm

anis

tik

of t

he U

nive

rsit

y of

Ruh

r in

Boc

hum

, G

erm

any.

His

are

as o

f sp

ecia

lisat

ion

incl

ude

hist

ory

of 1

7th

to20

th c

entu

ry G

erm

an a

nd E

urop

ean

liter

atur

e, 1

7th

and

18th

cent

ury

poet

ics,

and

aes

thet

ics

of t

he p

erio

d ar

ound

180

0.M

ore

rece

ntly

he

has

been

res

earc

hing

the

lite

ratu

re o

f ne

wm

edia

env

iron

men

ts (

film

, tel

evis

ion,

hyp

erte

xt),

and

the

dis

-co

urse

of

Ger

man

geo

polit

ics

in s

elf-

desc

ript

ions

sin

ce t

he m

id-

19th

cen

tury

. His

late

st p

ublic

atio

ns a

re: L

ove

as a

Nov

el,F

ink,

Mün

chen

, 200

3; a

nd C

omm

unic

atio

n/M

edia

/Pow

er, S

uhrk

amp,

Fran

kfur

t, 2

002.

Ávykiai

Popu

lism

at t

he C

AC

08/0

4/20

05–0

5/06

/200

5

The

CAC

pres

ents

at

the

Vie

nna

Art

Fai

r 19

/04/

2005

–24/

04/2

005

CAC,

Viln

ius

hom

e of

the

9th

Bal

tic

Trie

nnal

e of

Inte

rnat

iona

l Art

2005

Dieter Lesage

Listings

KA

VIN

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ML: It’s probably the quantity of screenart that outshine. Audiovisual arts havea specific psychological influence, asthey reach your ear and eye withoutyour will. While the sculptural object,which has bulk, requires some effort. A sculptural object has bulk and is real,it’s real by the very principle of being,in the same way a person is volumetric.You experience a sculptural objectdirectly, not via the psyche, it’s theattraction that works here, likebetween the moon and the earth.

LK: You went to Sao Paulo togetherwith your brother. Your brother is also a sculptor, who graduated earlier thanyou and created the monument toÞemaitis [the Lithuanian guerrilla gen-eral]. Is the phenomena of brothers’creative work an artificial thing, createdparticularly for the Biennale, or do youcomplement each other?

ML: I can hardly imagine working forthe Biennale without my brother’s par-ticipation. Really, it was an equal coop-eration, and it was successful, since thetopic of resistance was understood simi-larly by each of us. In general, we arevery different, but we come togetherwell. Naturally, the work would not bea success if we started everything froman empty place. The differencesbetween our visions would becomeprominent from the outset. Basically, Iam against collective works, as I havegone through this school of work withBlizgë. I have understood that an artisthas to be alone and create [his] worksalone as well.

LK: What recent event has shocked youmost of all?

ML: I get shocked by something everyday. The evil takes various forms, so it’shard to distinguish one and ignore theother... I am interested by all the thingsthat happen to a person, the borderwhen one becomes a human being andwhen one is not human anymore. Infew words, the problem of being moral.

LK: So can we say that an artist is aninvestigator of borders?

ML: Everyone – not just an artist – is aninvestigator. There are people whodon’t belong to the field of art or anyother humanities, but they are investi-gators. Even though it’s hard to figure,because they don’t produce anything.

Laimas Kreivytë is an art critic and theeditor of the art section in the

Lithuanian cultural weekly 7 menodienos.

On Sunday February 27th CharlieKaufman, Michel Gondry and PierreBismuth won the 2005 Academy Awardfor best original screenplay. In competi-tion with the films The Aviator, HotelRwanda, The Incredibles, and VeraDrakethe Oscar went to EternalSunshine of the Spotless MindcrowningPierre Bismuth as the first contemporaryvisual artist to win an Oscar. A welldeserved recognition of one of contem-porary art’s finest minds, and of thepower of conceptual art and of visualart in general!

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mindisthe story of a couple (Jim Carrey andKate Winslet) who undergo a procedureto erase each other from their memo-ries when their relationship turns sour,but it is only through the process of lossthat they discover what they had tobegin with.

During the ceremony I found myselfpraying to Hollywood that Pierre wouldwin and leap onto stage, holding upthe famous statue and smile at thosemillions of viewers around the world.My prayer was answered.

Some days after his victory, in New YorkCity, Pierre and I met in a small Frenchrestaurant on Houston Street. Weenjoyed lunch, joked about life andspoke about the Oscar affair.

Gabriel Lester: So, you won!

Pierre Bismuth: The statuette placedon my mantelpiece in Brussels seems toremind me everyday I did. Some times Ikind of forget.

GL: Did you expect to win?

PB: I couldn’t even imagine I wouldactually be nominated, I thoughtKaufman would be the only one to be.But as soon as I knew about the nomi-nation I thought we would win. It isonly while I was there, at the ceremony,being in the same room as SydneyLumet, Al Pacino, Clint Eastwood…looking at them on the stage, Ithought: “It can’t be possible!”

GL: When were you nominated? Whendid you first hear you might win anOscar?

PB: I received one or two mails fromfriends congratulating me for the nomi-nation of Eternal Sunshine, but I didn’tunderstand it was about me personally.I was actually furious because after sixmonths I still hadn’t succeeded obtain-ing a DVD copy of the film. I thought:“Great! The film is nominated and I stilldon’t have even one copy of the film”.

The first time I really understood I wasnominated too, was when I received amail from Focus Features [the produc-tion company that released EternalSunshine, Ed.]telling me I had beennominated and would soon receivenews from the Academy of MotionPicture Arts and Sciences about my invi-tation and travel.

GL: Has it generated any special inter-est in your work yet? Articles, shows, assuch?

PB: It is a bit too early to say how muchit is going to play in the reception ofmy work, but certainly yes there isinterest. A lot of people in the art sceneare talking about it and rightly theyoften see it as a prize given to the artcommunity as well. I think that’s verynice. By the way one piece of the decorof the stage looked so much like anAngela Bullock.

GL: Has it made you think about yourwork differently?

PB: No.

GL: Tell me about the initial idea, howdid it come up?

PB: As often, out of a casual telephoneconversation with a friend about loveand sex.

GL: How do you keep track of yourideas and how do you select the onesthat are useful?

PB: I am very messy and fragmented; Itry to do something as soon as I havean idea to somehow link it to some-thing factual. It can be anything, a littledrawing, a picture, or a sentence. Idon’t like to keep things at the level ofthe pure concept. I actually don’tbelieve in ideas. You can have the ideaof cooking something and then youhave the question of what to cook andhow to cook and when to cook and forwhom? And so on.

GL: Did Michel pick up the idea rightaway?

PB: Yes, that’s what I like with Michel,he is like you and me, very impatientand when he’s got an idea it has to bedone as fast as possible. Sometimes Iwish art people could be like that moreoften. Some are of course, when I metHarald Szeemann for the VeniceBiennale he didn’t know if I could fit inhis show and then I gave him a littlepiece of paper with a little word game Idid as a joke based on his title Plateauof mankind, and he just said, that’sgreat! Let’s do that. The next time I saw

him was in Venice to install the work.

GL: How did the transaction gobetween you and Michel?

PB: I wrote half a page with the basicline of the plot and two weeks later Ireceived a contract to sell the rights ofthe story.

GL: What do you think of Charlie’sadaptation of the idea?

PB: It is excellent. It is actually difficultto say what’s coming from him andwhat’s coming from Michel. I am surethey worked very closely. But in termsof my initial idea, everything is there.

GL: What is important about the idea,to you?

PB: I think I was being critical andmaybe cynical about the way we tendto believe in technology and scienceand how we could accept to resolve anaffective problem in a technical andpragmatic way. The second importantnotion was that what ever we do, wehave this great talent to create prob-lems faster than we have ability to solvethem. That’s something I really like, theway our brain is able to twist things insome unexpected ways.

GL: How about your relation withMichel? Tell me how you have beenpitching ideas to him. And how he haspicked up your perspective in his works?

PB: He just told me he couldn’t find anyscript he liked, but I didn’t think I couldhelp him. We just talked a lot as usualand he probably told me something

that made me think of this idea I had.That’s it! Michel had always been inter-ested in my work or let’s say in thelogic of my work. After all I realise thatmost of the artists I like are not reallyinterested in the result. If the work hasa good reason to exist, it’s goodenough.

GL: You are currently working in collab-oration with him, on an exhibition.What is it about?

PB: For years we have been trying to doa show together. It is difficult becausewe have very similar ideas but not thesame references and more importantthe same aesthetic. But eventually wefound a process (we both think in termof process) that we liked and decided todo it. It is again about erasure.

GL: How was the Oscar ceremony? Andthe seconds in between “the Oscar goesto...” and your name being read out?

PB: As you can imagine it was at thesame time incredible and very banal.You understand that for all these peo-ple there, it is something, let’s say, nor-mal. They all know each other they dosuch ceremonies all the time. I could seethat people were bored or upset orunhappy about some details. Littleeveryday life things like that. I kind ofabsorbed all that. When I watched it ontape, I was much more impressed. Ithough it seems much more incrediblethan when I was there. About theannouncement: it was just unbelievable.I was just thinking how is it possible?

GL: Can you tell me more of what wentthrough your mind?

PB: I was thinking: “I didn’t go throughall that to lose” and at the same time Icouldn’t believe it was possible. It isvery strange to see Clint Eastwood,Morgan Freeman, Dustin Hoffman look-ing at you; it is usually the other wayaround.

GL: How did people react to you winning?

PB: I think in America, even if peopledon’t really know why you won theyknow they have to have some consider-ation. Everybody was nice to me andhappy. There is a very different way todeal with success in America comparedto Europe. I think in Europe success isalways something a bit suspicious.

GL: Are you thinking about a secondflirt with Hollywood?

PB: As you know I love to work and beconfronted by new things, I always gowhere people think I am good, but Ilove art and for reasons that are faraway from the mainstream rules ofHollywood. We will see.

GL: What is 2005 going to look like?

PB: I am getting married to an amazingwoman and for the rest I just hope tobe very busy working with interestingpeople.

GL: Last question, can you say some-thing to your fans in Lithuania?

PB: I have a special love for Vilnius andI still mention today that my best mem-ory of all the exhibitions that I havedone, is from the one at the CAC withJonathan Monk curated by RaimundasMalašauskas. It was simply the best cre-ative experience I have ever had doinga show.

Pierre Bismuth is an Oscar winner wholives and works in Brussels.

Gabriel Lester is a Dutch artist who livesand works in Brussels and New York. Hehas visited Vilnius on several occasions,and exhibited work in the CAC project

Dutch Bureau: contemporary art projects from the Netherlands

(November 2004-January 2005).

1514

Gabrielis Lesteris ir Pierre’as Bism

uthas (su Oskaru)

Gabriel Lester talks to Pierre Bismuth Say what?:

Gabriel Lester &

Pierre Bismuth (w

ith Oscar)

travel (tripology). Though if we payattention to what places and what ways we travel, many more logics popin. You once asked in a conversationwhy there’s so much cooking in our pro-grams – probably because cooking isone of the (methodo)logical parallelsfor our way of TV production; it allowsus to assume, that making a program‘about’ something or certain subject isnot necessary for the process.

AÈ: What in that case is the objectiveof your program?RM: The CAC TV logo states: “It dreamsof turning audience members and spec-tators into an active public, possiblyeven producers. It dreams of inducingwakefulness and tapping into the inher-ent power of the multitude to counterthe sleep inducing nonsense that oftenpasses as entertainment. Activating thecreativity and critical skills of the viewerwhile still remaining watch-able.” Also,one can state that it is a pluralisticstage of creativity, the space where dif-ferences and varieties meet. Or it is aservice for exchanging collaborativeinventions and roles. Our favouriterhetorical figure is radical contradictionour recognised method is anarchy. Ourhypothetical objective – creative life.

AÈ: Should one regard the CAC TV as apolitical program?RM: It is political in two ways: a) direct-ly. The day after the US presidentialelection we aired the film by AntoniMuntadas and Marshall Reese PoliticalAds(accompanied by comments fromJonas Valatkevièius and VirginijusSavukynas) that uncovers the technolo-gies of US electoral program, and howpower is maintained by the likes ofGeorge W. Bush. And b) indirectly – theopen code vision and the collaborationbased model for development of theprogram – political gesture, introducingwhat Antonio Negri and Michael Hardtcall “multitude”, or even more:“Multitude is an emerging form ofsocial organisation. In which differentpeople act and work together in a waythat does not deny their differences,freedom and autonomy. The multitudedefinitely is of democratic nature”. Eglë Rakauskaitë: Every public activityprotects interests of a certain class.Winston Churchill, while saying that it isbetter to chatter than to fight, did notmention about what one has to chatter.

AÈ: CAC TV deconstructs certain con-ventional realities – at least this appearsto be one of its objectives. What, how-ever, are you constructing in its place?VJ: We are constructing a community.AM: We construct in a way in whichnew meanings might be constructed, sothat the artists’ films we program couldconstruct new films, the ideas we pres-ent could generate new ideas, the old

programs could generate new programs.We would like not only to presentinformation but also to be the reasonfor the emergence of new information.

AÈ: Is your program intended for a cer-tain cultural community?IK: Certainly, all TV programs are ori-ented to certain groups of society, andCAC TV is no exception. JF:According to theorist Charles Jencks,one of the main features and strategiesof postmodernism is the so-called sys-tem of double encoding, when thesame formation (in our case – the TVprogram) is produced in a way that itcan be understood and evaluated byboth the regular viewer and by profes-sionals in their narrow field of expert-ise. The icon of such a double encodingis the movie Matrix, which is equallyadored by fans of fight-movies and spe-cial effect lovers, as well as by mediatheorists and cultural scientists. CAC TVis (attempts to be) such a postmodernproduct, but due to fact that not all TVviewers in Lithuania are postmodernists,certain selectivity of audience isinevitable.VJ: No doubt about it, we would like tobe The Simpsonsand be liked by everybody.ER: Maniacs while awaiting the upcom-ing Showerprogram, on which they canread their perverse SMS on the televi-sion screen, might also become casualviewers of our program...

AÈ: Once you entrusted a group of kidsto produce the program. How did thathappen? Why?RM: They like Jean Luc Godard.AM: It is not necessary to pay all theattention to adults.

AÈ: Where and what are you most fre-quently shooting?RM: Most often our cameras capturesome view. We shoot in the CAC TV stu-dio that travels. Therefore we shooteverywhere.AM: It seems to me that recently wehave only been shooting talking heads.

AÈ: What is the main message that CACTV delivers? Is there any ‘main’ mes-sage? (Maybe it constantly changes?Maybe there isn’t any message?)RM: To every TV viewer – their own tel-evision. That is our old slogan.VJ: However, it is valid. We are not anews program.

Austëja Èepauskaitë is a freelance art critic.

Mindaugas Lukošaitis talks about his,and his brother Gintautas, Resistanceproject that was presented at the SaoPaulo Biennale 2004.

Laima Kreivytë: Your artistic careerhas been relatively short and successful:as if you’ve been riding on a wave,because drawing has become popularsince relatively short time. But as Iunderstand it, you’ve been drawingsince a very long time. How are yourdrawings born, and what is importantfor you when you’re drawing?

Mindaugas Lukoðaitis: I have beendrawing ever since I was three yearsold. I have never thought aboutwhether I want to draw: I’ve alwaysbeen drawing. Making drawings is avery pleasant thing: you sit down com-fortably, sharpen your pencil and work.It’s an easy and relaxing occupation.

LK: But the topics of your works arevery serious: the history of Lithuania,guerilla fighters. How do you chooseyour topics: do you do it spontaneouslyor knowing your message in advance?

ML: It’s like riding on a wave thatyou’ve mentioned. The wars that aregoing on around us – in Chechnya orIraq – is also a wave, but a wave offerocity. I just reflected on it at theright moment. It was not a haphazard,but my natural reaction to life today.This was how the topic of guerilla fight-ers was arrived at: as a reaction to theinternational situation, as thinking anddiscussion – after all, we’ve had thisexperience, too.

LK: You sharply react to events aroundthe world, to the things that are reallyrelevant and moving. However, youdon’t choose video or photography: youtake a graphite pencil and make draw-ings of your stories....

ML: I can tell you the story of theResistanceseries. First of all, I intro-duced the topic, it appeared suitableand attractive, and then I started work-ing with the idea itself. I was drawingthe sketches without knowing the for-mat of the future work. The time waspassing, so the decision was dictated bythe heap of pictures becoming greater.It was unexpected for me as well: itappeared that I had already depictedthe resistance, even though at the startI was thinking of an installation.

LK: Let’s talk about the most significantmoments in your career. Perhaps weshould start from your working in theBlizgëgroup and your exhibition at ArtProjects Studiogallery [Vilnius] in 2002.A year later, you participated in the fes-

tival of young art in Moscow, then fol-lowed the 2 Showexhibition ofLithuanian and Latvian artists at theCAC, and finally, the Biennale in SaoPaulo last year.

ML: One of the credos in Blizgëgroupwas the objective of remaining at theunderground level as much as possible,the group was functioning as a firingground for creative activities.Eventually, we ran out of ideas, andthings were coming to an end, so wedecided to take out our works and dis-play them. After the exhibition at ArtProjects Studiogallery [Vilnius], thecurators took notice of us, and we wereamong the young artists invited to par-ticipate in the 2 Showexhibition.However, with ResistanceI movedabsolutely independently. Our groupsplit up, and I went my own way. Butthe proposal to participate in the SaoPaulo Biennale was unexpected: wemade jokes about going to the moon.

LK: So Sao Paulo was a flight to themoon? After all, it’s the Southern hemi-sphere. Did everything turn head overheels so much?

ML: For me personally, it didn’t gohead over heels. It’s hard to find some-thing new, since the globalisation has‘done’ so much by homogenising thecultures of different continents. At theBiennale I noticed a lot of ‘regulateddepicting’ in the language of art, like incartoons: the movement is created in acertain and defined way. What is new isreally the very historical events in theworld, the cataclysms, the apocalypticnature. During the journey, I was mostlyexcited by being so close to the lungs ofthe earth: the Amazon forests! And alsoby the moon laying flat in the sky, as ifa little ship, when it was not fullmoon…

LK: How did your works look in thecontext of the Biennale? Did you getany response?

ML: At the opening, me and my broth-er’s works were surrounded by crowdsof people, the nearest pavilion did notreceive so much attention. However, it’shard to say what makes people troopup together. Even when I was hangingmy works, I noticed the reaction of theassisting workers. They were watchingwith interest, even though there wasjust the half of all works, and then theywere passing by and tapping on myshoulder. This was the most naturalreaction, and I admired it.

LK: Your works fit perfectly at the bor-der between art and life, since, asyou’ve mentioned, they are comprehen-

sible to common people, and in the artworld, the archaic forms gain powersthat are totally new, their original placeamong all the other narratives. I thinkit’s a very prominent feature, as con-temporary art often turns into totallyelitist one, and now it comes back towhat life is. Did you notice any workslike yours at the Biennale?

ML: While looking at the pictures in theBiennale, I often saw that the conceptand the work were two differentthings. There were many pure formsand ideas aimed at themselves. Thelargest part of the works exposed at theBiennale were not related to the worldand the problems that surround us,rather they reminded conversationsabout pleasant things that you can hearin cafés. Even though there were workslike mine, because the curators them-selves were oriented towards ‘hand-made’ pieces rather than video. It maysound strange, but I don’t rememberany works that fascinated me.

LK: What does handiwork mean to you,what is the importance of the materialor the undertaking? If you tried tomake the recipe of your creative work,what would its components be?

ML: Certainly, the mastering of thematerial: the paper, the pencil that isalways submissive to you. And the otherthing: your state when you’re working,the element. Theemotion that youhave to be filledwith until you com-plete the work.

LK: Do you call itinspiration?

ML: It’s not inspira-tion, rather thehighest intensity ofefforts, like whenyou want to jumpover an obstruc-tion. It’s a jump, not inspiration. The work when youmobilise yourself, as much the imagi-nation, which mustalways be refresh-ened and work atfull potential, asmuch the hand that should notshake. Everythingshould work simul-taneously and at full potential.

LK: For how longcan you keep this

state? How long does it take to create adrawing?

ML: I was drawing Resistancefor awhole month, from 6 p.m. to 8 a.m.with no withdrawal, just making breaksfor a coffee or a cigarette. Sometimes adrawing can emerge in 15 seconds, butafterwards you feel like you’ve had anelectrical short, like you’ve lost all yourenergy. I am not mystifying, I just needthe concentration of attention andenergy. That’s my recipe.

LK: You are studying sculpture. Whatthe Lithuanian school of sculpture orcertain teachers mean to you? Howdoes your experience as a sculptor workwhen you are creating?

ML: There are important sculptors, forinstance Mindaugas Navakas, whoinfect you with their energy. But I choseto study sculpture not because I likeworking with metal or wood. I knewthat I would learn the skills of spatialthinking. And generally speaking, it issculpture that change fashions in theworld of art, which means it’s the fieldwith highest energy.

LK: Perhaps this is more true when wespeak of public spaces. But on the widerscale, it’s the screen arts that dominateand manage to compete with otherthings flowing from the screens...

1716

Gintautas &

Mindaugas Lukoðaitis Resistance

2004. 26th Sao Paulo Biennale. Photograph: Kæstutis K

uizinas

Laima Kreivytë talks to Mindaugas Lukoðaitis Away:

Gintautas ir M

indaugas Lukoðaièiai, Rezistencija, 2004. 26-oji San Paulo bienalë. Kæstuèio K

uizino fotografija

chances it’s more or less the same kindof stuff. But anyhow how he’s installedthese pieces: it’s very strong.

CAC: This is me dealing with my ownRussian romantic associations but whenseeing Michel Rovner’s work in this set-ting I can’t help but think of the shot inTarkovsky’s Andrei Rublevfrom the topof the hill where the bell is being castwhich refers to the two winter scenesby Breughel. Is this a positive reading ofRovner’s work in this context (or is it myproblem)?

JB: This is a fair dialogue. She evenreminds me here of the work of ShirinNeshat though Neshat deals more withethnic cliché. Rovner though is less eth-nic cliché it is pure gesture. It is ofcourse a kind of Jewish Israeli gesture:but it’s not. But for me, because as I amJewish, it is based on a very historicalaesthetical vision: in the way things goround.

CAC: To look at Dialectics of Hope,dialectics, and negative critique which isthe basis of dialectical analysis thereseems to be a positive spirit in the showrelated to collective activity so theRovner for me is representative of this.

JB: Yes, one of the key exhibitions inthe whole project is in the StateTretyakov Gallery, have you seen it? It isimportant as it gives you the historicalcontext. Andrei Yerofeyev who is thecurator of that project has presentedthe whole history of Russian post-WorldWar, Moscow, and underground groupstuff. It creates an art historical compli-ment. The problem is that it’s not sounderstandable for a non-Russian asthere is no English description. But gen-erally you can feel the interestingnature of the materials. And there isanother show in the Central House ofArtists that deals with that as well.

CAC: The biennale is a major enterpriseto get around.

JB: I know there’s many shows as well. Ithink that I am very proud. If you wereto ask what was the most difficult taskfor me, structurally? That was it. Peoplelike Kæstutis should understand.Because I have been like, in-betweencurators, as well as all the national artworld, it was very risky for me. And thisterrible Russian bureaucracy, it was anightmare. It’s like two differentworlds, and to be responsible!

CAC: Are David Ter-Organyan’s bombsin the show threatening or playful?

JB: Well, both. I was told, by my inter-national colleagues that these wouldnot be allowed in any European muse-um. No way. But in this country it will

work. But that’s the colour of Russia.On the one side nothing is possible andon the other side everything can hap-pen. That’s a kind of freedom.

CAC: Are you allowed to say what yourtwo favourite works are?

JB: No. Because in my position I have toconsider too many criteria and responsi-bilities to make that decision. I couldtell you that I like the ChristianBoltanski. Because he’s a famous per-son, he’s a great artist it wouldn’toffend anybody. This is one of the bestof his pieces I have ever seen. And also,he also told me he thinks it’s one of hisbest pieces. So that’s my answer. Again,it’s not about the older generation orjudging artistic achievements it’s aboutthe past, about politics. But for me itwasn’t just an opportunity to work withhim to make a curatorial statement butit’s a matter of politics. It’s a duty forart in our country. It had to be done.He’s important. And then, by chance of course, thisevent became part of a State structure.And I became a spokesman, a politician,and a businessman. That’s what it was.That’s why we had to organise so manycurators. I was not so concerned aboutthe international programme because itwas guaranteed by the level of theirprofessionalism, and while we had todiscuss this, and that, and I like some ofthe artists more than others but gener-ally it happened. I remember when I met Kæstutis inBasel. It was blah, blah, blah, blah. Willthis thing ever come out because it’ssomething that nobody needs? But thenat the opening standing with theDeputy Minister of Culture behind thepodium I still didn’t believe, and hesaid, “I didn’t believe you could do it”.For me, I have to tell you, for me as acurator for someone involved in curato-rial life I needed only to do somethingthat was important: but I thought interms of what was possible. This wasimpossible, but it was some how doneby me. There’s your story.

CAC: So a last question. There’s a num-ber of ex-Soviet states going throughwhat Russia is going through at themoment. I am surprised that therearen’t many artists from the broaderSoviet universe.

JB: Yes, that’s true. But there are tech-nical limits. Even with curators we can’tpredict the coverage. And for me, Idon’t know what’s going on in Latvia,Lithuania, and Estonia. There’s been afew shows I’ve been to in Europe withartists, but. Also, frankly I don’t knowwhat’s happening well enough. I knowfor next time I will have to make a spe-cial effort. And there’s not onlyLithuania there’s Georgia, the Ukraine,

Kazakhstan, Moldova, all the countriesin that direction. I was last in Vilniusfive years ago, quite a while. So I mustcome myself especially to visit all mycolleagues… we’ll see.

Simon Rees is the co-editor of INTERVIUand was a first-time visitor to Moscow.

Since October 20, 2004 the Lithuaniancommercial television channel TV1 hasaired a weekly art-television series pro-duced by the Contemporary Art Centre:CAC TV. The shows are introduced withan unconventional trailer that reads:Every program is a pilot. Every programis the final episode. Yet, Wednesdayin/Wednesday out the experimental artsshow hits the air with its discussionsabout a variety of subjects impactingupon contemporary culture such as thepeculiarities of political advertising,problems of cultural heritage, theexpansion of consumerism, and globalgeo-politics. The creative process ofeach episode is in plain view so CAC TVis also a show-about-a-show: it is ameta-reality show.

This interview revisits a conversationconducted for the Lithuanian culturalweekly 7 meno dienos.Returning to atopic (a deliberate production strategyof CAC TV) has allowed the text toevolve organically and new things havecome to light. Some points from theprevious interview have been cut-and-pasted here; which is no coincidence. AsRaimundas Malašauskas so eloquentlyput it in the second CAC TV episode,borrowing the words from BartSimpson: “my job is to repeat” and “myjob is to repeat”. A point that is alsodiscussed.

Austëja Èepauskaitë: What do youthink about television?Aurelija Maknytë: It is one ofmankind’s most terrific inventions. It’sfor everybody – not only for those whowatch, but also for those who see.Ignas Krungelevièius: However, it isone more instrument for manipulatingthe populace and producing money. Ofcourse, it also serves as a daily source ofinformation. Yet, that is an inseparablepart of the reality.Valentinas Klimašauskas: To mymind, Richard Serra best defined thesocio-political objectives of televisionback in 1973, when he said: “televisiondelivers people”. In other words, televi-sion delivers viewers to marketing com-panies and corporations, rather thanproducts for cultural or industrial con-sumption. All televisions, including thepublic ones, develop their programmingmatrix in relation to this factor. In con-

temporary media discourse televisionbecomes “hotter” to use MarshalMcLuhan’s term, which does not leavespace for viewers’ participation.

AÈ: In that case the CAC TV is...?VK: I dare to think that in its programsCAC TV behaves to the contrary. Itintroduces unique artistic products,which have no ‘air value’ in the matrixof the Lithuanian TV market, andattempts to ‘warm-up’ the viewers, notthe TV-set.Virginija Januðkevièiûtë: It is a proj-ect of the Contemporary Art Centre forthe airwaves – an alternative space tothe exhibition halls – which is a newspace for exposition and quest. This islike a new argument in the old dia-logue between ‘painting and theframe’, which reminds that the framewas invented in name of mobility anddissemination.

AÈ: Has CAC TV anything in commonwith the general ruling principles of TV(let’s say with such mass media princi-ples as exploitation of sex and vio-lence)?Raimundas Malašauskas: Everythingthat would be included in a regular TVprogram stays off screen in CAC TV. Julija Fomina: CAC TV follows thebroadly defined principles of what a TVprogram is, and simultaneously exploresand invents its own format and buildsits own identity.AM: Frankly speaking, it would be niceto do something hooliganic. I wouldlike to produce a program aboutpornography or a pornographic pro-gram. Somebody once said that TVscrews the mind. They had in mind thatthe viewer trusts the TV, relies on it,and eventually the TV penetrates deepinto their thinking, and manipulateswithout them realising it.

AÈ: What will a CAC TV episode neverbe?RM: There will never be the firstepisode.IK: The CAC TV can be anything.However, I doubt we will ever attemptto talk the viewers into giving awaytheir wealth and to worshipping Jesus…

AÈ: But what do you dream aboutdoing?AM: We dream about creating a back-up episode. Also, I would like to createa follow-up on a feature film that isbroadcast prior to the CAC TV program.RM: Live broadcast of the 1972 CAC TVprogram. Or the farewell speech of thelast TV viewer in the world after whicheverybody will become a TV maker andTV as an industry will become redundant.

AÈ: What about a program abouthealth?RM: After the aforementioned pro-grams – definitely, yes.

AÈ: What do you mean when you say‘pilot’? Personally (and I assume that tonumerous movie-viewers in independ-ent Lithuania who have been nurturedby mainstream movies) the word ‘pilot’is associated with airplane pilots, or tobe more precise – with autopilot, whenthe pilot is poisoned with fish and theplane is flying on its own. In this con-text the ‘pilot-program’ becomes ametaphor of some huge creature thatcannot be directly controlled. What isthe reality?RM: Every program is a ‘pilot-program’because a) it is a program (about a pro-gram) as possibility; b) it is a programas a means for creating and designingpossibilities. The pilot program is a con-cept that facilitates the creation of pos-sibilities both as a method and a faith.The pilot approach allows us to invent,to maintain and permanently questionthe fluid identity in an ephemeral TVair reality. On the other hand, each pro-gram becomes a pilot for the next pro-gram, in which the aforementionedprinciples can be implemented.VJ: In fact it is a huge, almost uncon-trollable creature. The attention thatwe get from channel representativescannot be defined as control. There is,therefore, a lot of autopilotism in it,even though the initiative is in ourhands. We have quoted in our programa sentence from David Cronenberg’sfilm eXistenZ: “you have to play a gameto know why are you playing it”.

AÈ:Could it happen that at some point

you realise that each CAC TV programhas ceased to be the ‘pilot’ and the ‘last’one? Since we live in defined discourseoutside which nothing has got a mean-ing, the threat of the end is rather likely.

RM: The introduction of artists’ pro-grams as a format protects from such asituation. The concept of such a pro-gram is similar to the principle in thefashion industry when the designerdevelops clothes for other fashion hous-es, e.g. Jean Paul Gaultier designing acollection for Hermes. Applicable to oursituation it sounds like “DeimantasNarkevièius (or Evaldas Jansas, or EglëRakauskaitë, or...) for CAC TV.”AM: Well, there can be the non-pilotand not-the-final program – and, again– that would be something new. Anymutation can turn into a productivedriving force of evolution.

AÈ: How do you decide the contents ofeach new episode?AM: While chatting about programsand about anything. I love to observeand to remember everything. Later on,when necessary, I just ‘print’ that out,like a printer.RM:It is not an industrialised produc-tion. The programs are not created in alinear way. There is no through-linethat needs something added to it, thereis no particular case which needs to beabstracted – everything takes placesimultaneously in parallel, and this isthe way the vision and concept of theprogram is developed. These processesare always web-like.VJ: While preparing for this interview,we just discussed that the developmentof every program and this project ingeneral can be defined via three logics,those of conversation, pilotism and

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Home:

Austëja Èepauskaitë talks to the CAC TV team

Vignette for CA

C TV 2005

ÐMC TV

skirtukas, 2005

which is of course a tree and then I waituntil I forgot what I filmed, I don’tprocess it. Then two or three days passand I film something completely elsethat has no connection. It is completelychance. And then there is no more ”Ihave a tree, I should have a river”. No Idon’t know any more what was, so thenI film and I get a water drop or I get ahat. And you see that becomes interest-ing. What happens was totals andunpredictable. You find a lot of that.Sometimes I have two Bolexes and Ikeep one for two weeks until I reallyforget what was in it.

LP: But there is still structure when youmake the films, and I was wonderinghow this diary language emerged?

JM: I started with the subject of thediary in general in the writing. But withthe film it is right there immediately,you see, it’s there because when youstand in front of something if you don’tcapture it in three seconds, with emo-tions, by four seconds or five seconds itis already something else. So I have sortof developed techniques for makingthis. I grab and I film. You don’t try andfocus you don’t, or you lose the subject,or checking the lighting. Whateveropening or the focus the camera is setit runs immediately because with Bolexyou push and it runs you lose one ortwo seconds but you get the essence.You can’t do that with a video, video isdifferent you have to wait for thepower and you lose at least four or fiveseconds before the red/the imageappears. You lose the essence. You onlyget what comes after. By the time youpress the button the subject is gone soyou only get the action of what comesafter, you never get the real actionunless its an extended act. With BolexI’ve developed techniques to get theimmediate. When filming you canadjust but you get it immediately. Butthen the question comes, what am Ireally getting when I am just filming? Ifyou just press, you get 24 images persecond, a realistic, naturalistic, kind offilming. It became boring for me. So Ihad to restructure the filming by meansof single-frames, and by changing lightvalues and speeds, you can film fastspeed and slow speed, all those thingscome in. That comes in the film thenthe whole structuring is in the filmingnot in the editing room. You can’t dothat.I keep stressing that it is a diary, andreality, but also it’s fiction, I’m a re-cre-ator, I’m a re-structurer, I’m computingmyself into it. Same as when you writea diary, you never really write a truediary. You write one day later or 10hours later, or five hours later in theevening, when many different thingshave happened to you. You’ve got ti-red, you had fights; you have changed

your perspective of what happened toyou during the day. With the camerayou get it right there. With the writing,and I’m a sucker, you go into fantasies,you don’t want to know what you didall day. Nothing is real anymore.

LP: Could you comment on the connec-tion of observation and participation inthe filmmaking.

JM: I change reality, it’s like in quan-tum physics you cannot observe anatom without changing it. You cannotseparate the observer and the observedthing. There is no such thing in physicsas the objective it is always about par-ticipation. And that is me. So you can-not separate from that image, I am theparticipator. You can’t ask where ittakes, and how it takes, and why ittakes, and why film that? It is participa-tion.

LP: You have many of your friends inyour films and I wonder how did theyinfluence? Was there a mutual influ-ence?

JM: We knew each other we workedtogether but they did not influence myfilms. Only we knew each other but weinfluenced ourselves, you know? Andwhat we did we got excited togetherabout this or that, but that’s a differentthing. But not that they influenced theactual films. But that’s a certain aspectthat now we look from a time perspec-tive and we see all those famous peoplein my films, famous now though wellyes I knew them all. But it was differentthen. They weren’t famous. They werejust friends. They were just people.

Liutauras Pšibilskis is the co-commisioner of the Lithuanian

Pavilion at the Venice Biennale 2005.

Simon Rees talks to Joseph Backsteinthe ‘brains-trust’ behind the inauguralMoscow Biennale of Contemporary Art2005. The exhibition was curated by acommittee comprising; [Backstein],Daniel Birnbaum, Iara Boubnova,Nicolas Bourriaud, Rosa Martinez, andHans Ulrich Obrist.

I took tea and baklava with JosephBackstein in the elegant café at theMetropole Hotel a stone’s throw awayfrom the Former Lenin Museum theprincipal venue of the Biennale.

CAC: You lead the biennale cataloguewith a curatorial statement about whocomprises the audience for the 1st bien-nale. I belong to an international artaudience who has seen the Blue Noses

Group, shall we say, too many times inrecent years. Are they there becausethere is a new audience for art inMoscow who hasn’t seen them or sim-ply because they are popular?

Joseph Backstein: Yes, they are popu-lar. But one of my co-curators likesthem a lot – I couldn’t tell whom – andall the decisions about artists weremade by consensus.

CAC: And by consensus does that meanyou were communicating regularly withthe international curators?

JB: We had to meet several times.

CAC: Here in Moscow?

JB: First we met here. Then in Paris,two times in London, then SanSebastian, then somewhere else.

CAC: To what extent did you have todisabuse your fellow curators of roman-tic notions about what Russia is andwhat Russia was?

JB: They didn’t care about Russia much.Their job was not to care about Russia.They are producing an internationalshow. That was their role. I was worriedabout Russia, about the special pro-gramme and about how to make it abig event. That was my job. Funnily, itsettled into a sort of structure: the mainproject, the special projects, and theperipheral programmes. And they gotto understand that too.

CAC: In terms of the artists includedfrom Asia there’s a high proportion ofartists from the P.R.C. Does this reflecthistorical relationships?

JB: No, that’s a chance. It’s accidental.It has to do with artists chosen by myfellow curators, who they know, whomthey have confidence in. By havinginternational curators we can get rid ofthis concentration on old Russian,American relations. It has more to dowith the artist type. If we think ofTomas Saraceno the Argentinean guy,for us, he’s been like a model. He’syoung, absolutely devoted, he couldcome, and he could do something andbe really obsessed by the event. Andthis is very funny. He asked us whenwriting the catalogue, when writing hisc.v. for the country he came from –because he’s from Argentina but lives inItaly – and he’s like this, he asked if wecould put United Sky. So that’s wherehe’s from. It’s like United Kingdom butit’s United Sky. It’s very nice.

CAC: It might be too early to ask but isyour money for 2007 settled?

JB: First of all let me say that beforenow I was quite nervous about eventhis main programme. The idea was tomake the second biennale with thesame team. Even though we got a yesfrom the Ministry [of Culture] themoney was very tricky. Then also the next difficulty was theLenin Museum, which as a venue itselfwas a great uncertainty. But this isRussia so it was an adventure from thevery beginning. In terms of the pro-gramme I should say that the last deci-sion about the Lenin Museum was madeon December 2nd. Which was with lessthan two months togo. That is Russia.

CAC: With that inmind, I have to saythat some of theinstallation of thework seems ambiva-lent to the workitself. Does that makethis a far more con-ceptual biennale than many othersbecause it doesn’tstress museum orgallery standards ofinstallation: it treatsthe art as concept?

JB: First of all, we arenot a museum we area Biennale! And weare working withyounger artists, show-ing many of them forthe first time. Themain thing to consid-er is that the interna-tional establishmentthat came to theopening, they allliked it; especially the installations inthe Lenin Museum. The curators they allliked it, and they are very importantpeople. This was part of the trick: toinvite the most important internationalpeople to help legitimise contemporaryculture in this country. It’s pure politics.They liked it, so everybody is satisfied.The artists are satisfied, as far as Iknow. They were quite well treated. Ofcourse there were a couple crises andproblems but that’s in every biennale. As Rosa Martinez says because of thequality of some of the pieces it’s anadvantage: it’s about a kind of porousenergy, it’s a dialogue, it’s a kind ofplatform – it’s a statement. What’sunbelievable is that you could talk tomany people in Moscow about theimpression that there’s something new,it’s a historical moment. It’s new, a new era.

CAC: On the other hand the people

involved in the legitimating processhave seen the majority of those worksbefore. And to an international visitor,like myself, the work in the main showseems second hand don’t you think?

JB: Like what? You mean in the LeninMuseum? Obviously the Hatsushiba?

CAC: Yes the Hatsushiba, as I’ve beeninvolved with showing it myself.

JB: Yes, what else?

CAC: I’ll to refer to my notes… A

moment. The Johanna Billing, theJeremy Deller from his CCAC residency,the Mao statues, the Blue Noseswho’vemade new work but it’s familiar.

JB: Okay, but you’re not from Moscow.

CAC: So who is the new Moscow audi-ence and do you think they’ll stick withcontemporary art?

JB: Young people. This Biennale hascreated a new audience. There is awhole generation who have suddenlyrealised that there is something, a newart, with which they can identify them-selves. Something strange that theycan’t understand, which is like a newrevolutionary spirit that is ready fortheir generation. And it’s kind of gener-ationaly fulfilling.

CAC: This will be an old one… Titleingthe show DialecticsofHopeyou can’t

help but run into Theodor Adorno.

JB: Yes, Adorno and Ernst Bloch. Thereis a book and a famous quotation byRussian intellectual Boris Kagarlitskythat was first published in 1980 in theWest. He was even sentenced to prisonfor two years for that publication. Hewas a very bright guy. Basically, I read abook one year ago that had a referenceto this book and I thought ‘huh’ this isinteresting. This was interesting to meas a theme because Russia is a countryof hope. This was an important associa-tion for me.

CAC: As a side bar Bloch, along withKarl Popper, was an East German…

JB: Jew, he was German Jewish.

CAC: Yes, what I mean to say that Blochin combination with his friend [Popper]liked living in East Germany. They weregood soviet Germans. Are you in thesame way a good Russian? Do you iden-tify with them?

JB: Automatically, yes. Automatically,but there was a certain sickness of con-notation I thought you were getting at.But yes, I think you can find this is likethe main melody, or motif for me.

CAC: To refer to the title of Ponomarevwork in the show at the MultimediaComplex of Actual Arts does this identi-fication represent A Topology ofAbsolute Zero?

JB: No, I didn’t curate that part of theshow, Ponomarev. Ah, yes I see whatyou mean the identification. But I didtalk to the curators of the separateprojects, a hundred times, even theMapplethorpe and the Arkhipov thatthe shows should relate to our mainactivity at least conceptually.

CAC: The Rovner in the Architecturemuseum is that part of your show?

JB: Yes, all the videos from the VeniceBiennale. But the Rovner is like a spe-cial project and the Boltanski, the majorinstallation; Christian Boltanski is like aspecial guest. There’s a kind of hierarchy.

CAC: Well the Boltanski was fabulous,unbelievable.

JB: One of the best that I have everseen. It was something absolutelyunique, incredible; he really is one ofmy beloved artists. When we discussedit we came up with that form and thatwe wouldn’t compromise. I have seenmany, many, of his shows and lots of hiscatalogues and this is very rare: but hedoesn’t make mistakes. Even with

2120

Monum

ent of Lenin on October Square. Photograph: the author

Report:

Joseph Backstein Simon Rees talks to

Paminklas Leninui Spalio aikðtëje. Sim

ono Reeso fotografija

trip. One reason is usually not enoughfor me to travel.

LP: Concerning your activity inLithuania, you are first known there asa poet. And also for writing forValstieèiø laikraštis(agricultural press).

JM: Yes, I published my first edition ofcollected poetry there in I think 1970.Yes, I wrote a cultural column for oneyear for [like] a farmers’ weekly. It hadnothing much to do with farming. Itwas more of a general cultural column.Then after one year they decided thatsomehow maybe what I was writingabout wasn’t interesting to the farmers.Somehow, they thought, the same afterthe War period that he’s a socialist, he’sa communist. Of course it was com-pletely absurd. And these were peoplethat hadn’t seen my films yet. Therewere strange rumours. But basically,people no longer wanted me to writefor that newspaper.

LP: So I want to go back to your earliervisits when you made your films [1971and 1977] because you have said thatyou visited some almost imaginary spa-ces at that time. Can you remember it?

JM: Yes, yes I went and I filmed at mygrandmother’s that is an imaginaryspace in a sense, which is why theSoviets didn’t like it. They wanted ‘prav-da’, contemporary film, film about theprogress of Lithuania. But I knew noth-ing about that; I only knew my child-hood. I was remembering Lithuania as Iwas filming.

LP: But how was your meeting withthat reality?

JM: You can see it in the film, I meanthat tent, in a number of ways, ofcourse my brother is there, my motheris there. It was done under great restric-tions. A helicopter was always there.They knew every move that we made.And there was also a mile away a kilo-meter away a truck with all the moderntechnology to listen to everything. Itwas always there. So I never knew whatthey’re hearing or what they’re seeingbut I knew I could never be very free.And there was, like a scent, a woman aParty woman who was present when wewere eating or speaking, so there werevery few moments when we could reallytalk freely. When I could talk freelywith my brothers or my mother. Usually they don’t let anyone film any-thing. They rang and told me that mymother would have to come to Vilnius.But I said, No, I want to go there. Sothey rang Moscow to ask. Because theythought I might not only be a directorbut that I was very connected to

Moscow, which is where the reputationcame from. Because that’s how it hap-pened, I was in Moscow invited to theMoscow Film Festival, and while inMoscow I said to the Lithuanian contin-gent there — whoever was representingthem there — I want to go to Pravdaand visit Yuri Drukov. The Editor ofPravda. The biggest. Because when hecame to New York, he was doing a bookon radical movements, and because hewas that kind a guy someone said tohim go to Jonas and he’ll help intro-duce you to Allen Ginsberg and thoseguys. So I helped a lot. And then thereis a chapter of a conversation with mein the book. So he said if you ever inMoscow come and visit. So there was avery funny situation because theLithuanian representatives didn’t knowhow this guy could have these connec-tions. So the cameraman took me thereand saw me in the foyer having teawith Drukov and making jokes, andhaving a good time. Later Serebryakov from the film exportoffice came to New York and wanted tosee the film so I said okay. And[Donatas] Banionis was in town with aprint of Solaris so I said why don’t youboth come and see the film together. Soboth Serebryakov and Banionis saw thefilm of childhood reminiscences aboutLithuania. Serebryakov was so mad hesaid “You have to destroy the film,immediately”. But Banionis liked thefilm, so he defended it. They got practi-

cally into a fistfight because Banioniswas defending the film. And… ofcourse I didn’t destroy the film.

LP: Could you give me an opinion onthe difference in the concepts of com-munism they had [here] in America andwhat was happening in Russia.

JM: I think it was all a joke. The

American communist party, the socialistparty, had no idea. The same in Paris,all those writers and poets includingSartre: they had no idea really whatwas happening in the Soviet Union.They were following literature and the-ories, and they are cults and all veryexciting some of those theories andwritings and manifestoes. But they hadnothing to do with reality. They werecompletely from a different world, likethe Italians Gramsci, they were a com-pletely different thing. Of course I knewquite many of them. Actually, they weremostly Trotskyites. Which was againanother computation (which wasn’taccepted in the Soviet Union).

LP: I am wondering about the role ofaccidents and mistakes in your work?

JM: I embrace them. I incorporatethem. They open other possibilities thatyour mind does not think about.Chances and mistakes are very, very,very important. You work within certainroutines in your mind and then sudden-ly there is a mistake and you see: ah,ah, ah why didn’t I think about it? It’s adifferent note. It’s a slip. Like on amusical instrument. So I work a lot likethat. I permit; I open myself, and catch-it. And sometimes I don’t know ifthere’s anything there but I keep it. I think it’s more that aesthetics thereare practices in other arts that embracechance a lot, I think. It happens and you

play with it. I think it is a fundamentallaw of all arts. It’s like throwing darts. Mostly, when I start filming. Like letssay there’s a tree in an image, and Ithink in my mind what goes with atree? And I think, okay, an apple or ariver or a brook there and it’s all con-trolled. And when I look at it it’s bor-ing. So what I do, and have done thismany many times, is I film something

Liutauras Pšibilskis talks to Jonas Mekas

22

A note from the director

Welcome to the first issue of CAC INTER-VIU the latest challenge we have set our-selves here at the Contemporary ArtCentre, Vilnius.

The first issue is published at a time whenculture in Lithuania is undergoing rapidand extensive transformation. This is littledifferent to the situation immediately fol-lowing independence in 1990 yet there isno longer a sense of wonder at the pro-cess and perhaps there is less positivismabout where the changes might lead. Assuch, there is a greater need for pauseand reflection especially within an institu-tion such as the CAC that is caught in theforge of these changes: and is in someway responsible for a number of them.

INTERVIU is a platform for such reflection.Inevitably the publication is connected tothe CAC programme yet it intends toextend these parameters to reflect broad-er issues of Lithuanian contemporary artand culture. Importantly, we are going tobe producing an international publica-tion, with a focus on the Baltic region, sothat the Lithuanian situation can be con-sidered in a broader context. INTERVIU isbeing produced in two languagesLithuanian and English to facilitate abroad readership and contextualisation.

We will be inviting new writers and newopinions into the fray as well as askingartists to face the textual challenge. Andas the publication is interview based,rather than a collection of essays, it islooser and more casual than a standardart journal [or catalogue]. The results ofinterviews are more random: you neverknow in advance what might be said.There is even a chance that the CACmight cop some criticism when it is due.

INTERVIU is being edited by CAC curatorsLinara Dovydaitytë and Simon Rees whois a recent addition to the team. Rees,who has joined us from the Govett-Brewster Art Gallery in New Zealand, hasa strong background in art publishingand brings editing skills necessary for thenew venture. International distributionand news about what’s hot around theworld is being supplied by an editorialboard of ‘Interviu Friends’ whom I wouldlike to thank for their efforts: it’s connec-tions like these that enable new venturessuch as INTERVIU to flourish. I look for-ward to reading their opinions in print infollowing issues.

Please enjoy the inaugural issue of INTER-VIU and share my hope that what for themoment is a modest and fledgling publi-cation can develop into a quarterly with abright and solid future. Watch this space.

Kæstutis Kuizinas, Director

Launching pad

INTERVIU launches with clear purpose:to fill a gap. Currently there is no flag-ship contemporary art magazine pub-lished in Lithuania or the Baltic region.And the scene similarly needs a ‘high-serious’ cultural review. We use theterm ‘high-serious’ advisedly – pertain-ing to the late Susan Sontag’s Notes oncamp 1964 or the writing of AnatoleBroyard – as it refers to critique imbuedwith a sense of flexibility, even levity.High-seriousness attends a mutableform of criticism and what could bemore appropriate when tackling issuesabout contemporary art?

A regular publication produced by aninstitution needs to be light-on-its-feetor run the risk of being didactic orreductively doctrinaire. Moreover itfaces the real risk of being typified asan organ of self-promotion. We hope toavoid these pitfalls by maintaining asense of reflexive humour [the principleof high seriousness] and taking a broad-er overview than simply the CAC exhibi-tion programme: with a particular focuson Lithuanian artists making projectselsewhere. For starters there is an inter-view conducted with Jonas Mekas inNew York and with MindaugasLukošaitis about his participation in theSao Paulo Biennale 2004.

Similarly, INTERVIU will be coveringimportant international exhibitions andevents that have some implication forcontemporary artists working inLithuania. For instance, in this issue youcan read an interview with the found-ing curator of the inaugural MoscowBiennale of Contemporary Art. We hopeto concentrate on exhibitions that havea particular significance regionally orare on everybody’s lips but haven’treceived much coverage.

In the spirit of extending the bound-aries of art practice, the form of exhibi-tions, and making working opportuni-ties for Lithuanian artists we will becommissioning an artist’s page work foreach issue of the publication. First up isan intervention by emerging artistJuozas Laivys that departs from the typ-ical design of an artist’s page – he pro-posed the colour detail on the cover ofINTERVIU number one. The gold embosslooks like a thumbtack with which thepublication can be attached to a noticeboard or wall. We like this small maneu-vre (representative of Laivys’ practice)as it suggests some of our readersmight even make a souvenir of hiswork: and with it our publication.Maybe in years to come there still be acopy or two fading on a corridor wall atan art academy near you.

Of course to ignore the CAC programme

would be tantamount to shooting-our-selves-in-the-foot and there will be atleast an interview per issue. It’s ourintention to mix the writers and writingup though and invite a deeper reflec-tion on the part of our staff and apotential for debate or direct criticism.For the first issue we publish on the CACTV initiative that is in itself another wayof extending the boundaries of the CAC:and also fills a gap.

Sadly, this lack is no longer particular toLithuania [and the Baltic] as a ‘develop-ing’ member of the international artsystem. Specialist art and culture publi-cations have been folding all over theworld in recent times to the detrimentof cross-cultural discourse and thediminishment of opportunities forartists and writers alike. This always hitshardest in cultures that face the chal-lenge of distance: and when the publi-cations have taken a regional responsi-bility. We can cite the folding of NUNordic Art Review, L.A. Art Issues, andart/textas particularly prevalent exam-ples of the process. It is an insidious cul-tural affect that needs be reversed.

By publishing INTERVIU we hope to sur-mount a divide and help in some smallway to build a context for exhibitionculture, and publishing, here inLithuania – with a view to a brighterfuture. And connect the ContemporaryArt Centre and contemporaryLithuanian artists with the internationalart world.

Linara Dovydaitytë, Simon Rees

I met Jonas Mekas at the AnthologyFilm Archives in New York on February4, 2005.Our conversationlasted formore than an hour. The full transcriptof our talkwill be published in the cat-alogue accompanying Jonas Mekas’presentationfor the LithuanianPavilionat the Venice Biennale 2005.

Liutauras Pðibilskis:The first questionis about Lithuania: how often do yougo there?

Jonas Mekas: Not that often since1990 since liberation. I have been therefour times, so every two or three years.The last time was three years ago. I amnot a traveler I don’t like to travel, andI am very busy where I am and some-times my work prevents me from travel-ing. I go when it is very necessary: whenthere is something that no one else cando, I go. Last time I went it was thepublication of my collected volume ofpoetry that coincided also with havingto be in Paris and I tried to combine a

Jonas Mekas, N

ew York 2005. Photograph: the author

Jonas Mekas, N

iujorkas, 2005. Liutauro Pðibilskio fotografija Focus:

1 / 2005: the quarterly conversation about art

Focus: Liutauras Pðibilskis talks to Jonas Mekas

Report: Joseph Backstein about the Moscow Biennale

Home: Austëja Èepauskaitë talks to the CAC TV team

Away: Laima Kreivytë talks to Mindaugas Lukoðaitis

about the Sao Paulo Biennale

Say what?: Gabriel Lester talks to Pierre Bismuth

Artist’s project: Juozas Laivys

Contemporary Art Centre, Vilnius www.cac.lt

INTERVIU