Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mawrth, 30 Mehefin 2009Tuesday, 30 June 2009

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CynnwysContents

4Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog

Questions to the First Minister

34 Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes Business Statement and Announcement

44 Datganiad Deddfwriaethol: Y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Codi Ffioedd am Wasanaethau Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymru) Legislative Statement: The Proposed Social Care Charges (Wales) Measure

58 Y Polisi Trawsnewid (Trawsnewid Darparwyr Addysg a Hyfforddiant) Transformation Policy (Transforming Education and Training Providers)

84 Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar Egwyddorion Cyffredinol y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru) Stage 1 Debate on General Principles of the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure

107 Penderfyniad Ariannol ynghylch y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru) Financial Resolution for the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure

108 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

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In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif WeinidogQuestions to the First Minister

Addysg Education

C1 Nerys Evans: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ynglŷn ag addysg gynradd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? OAQ(3)2112(FM)

Q1 Nerys Evans: Will the First Minister make a statement about Welsh-medium primary education in Mid and West Wales? OAQ(3)2112(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog (Rhodri Morgan): Mae ein strategaeth ddrafft ar y pwnc hwn yn destun ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’n nodi’r trywydd yr ydym yn bwriadu ei ddilyn er mwyn sicrhau bod y systemau addysg cynradd ac uwchradd a’r system hyfforddi yn gallu ateb y diben mewn ffordd sy’n dilyn cynlluniau ac mewn ffordd gadarnhaol, i ateb y galw cynyddol am addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

The First Minister (Rhodri Morgan): Our draft strategy on this subject is out to consultation at the moment, and it identifies the routes that we intend to follow in order to ensure that the primary and secondary education systems and the training systems will be able to meet the needs in a way which follows the plans in a positive manner, to meet the increasing demand for Welsh-medium education.

Nerys Evans: Yr wyf wedi codi droeon gyda chi y diffyg cynllunio presennol ar gyfer addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ledled Cymru, yn ogystal â’r canolbarth a’r gorllewin. Yr wyf wedi sôn o’r blaen am y problemau yn sir Gaerfyrddin, a daeth problem debyg i’r amlwg yr wythnos diwethaf yn sir Benfro gydag Ysgol Glan Cleddau, lle mae plant yn colli’r cyfle i gael addysg Gymraeg. Yn amlwg, yr wyf yn croesawu’n fawr y strategaeth ddrafft yr ydych wedi sôn amdani, ond hoffwn eich holi ynglŷn â’r cynllunio a sut y bydd yn gweithio yn ymarferol. Beth fydd fframwaith monitro perfformiad yr awdurdodau addysg? Ai cyfrifoldeb awdurdodau addysg lleol fydd pennu targedau a dulliau gweithredu, ac, os felly, beth fydd rôl Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn y broses honno? Beth os bydd awdurdod addysg lleol yn ymateb yn negyddol ac yn gwrthod cynllunio yn ôl y galw, fel y digwyddodd yn sir Gaerfyrddin yn ddiweddar? Sut y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymateb i hynny? Mae’r strategaeth yn seiliedig ar ymgais i fonitro awdurdodau lleol yn fwy caeth, felly sut y bydd Llywodraeth

Nerys Evans: I have, on many occasions, raised with you the current lack of planning for Welsh-medium education across Wales, as well as in mid and west Wales. I have previously mentioned the problems in Carmarthenshire, and similar problems were seen last week in Pembrokeshire, with Ysgol Glan Cleddau, where children are to lose the opportunity to study through the medium of Welsh. Clearly, I warmly welcome the draft strategy that you have mentioned, but I would like to ask you about the planning and about how it will work on a practical level. What framework will be used to monitor the performance of local authorities? Will it be the responsibility of local education authorities to set targets and implementation methods, and, if so, what role will the Assembly Government play in that process? What if a local education authority responds negatively and refuses to plan according to demand, as happened in Carmarthenshire recently? How would the Welsh Government respond to that? The strategy is based on closer monitoring of local authorities, so how will the Welsh Assembly Government do

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Cynulliad Cymru yn gwneud hyn? that?

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn dilyn y llythyr a anfonwyd at bob awdurdod lleol yn sgîl lansio’r strategaeth ar 13 Mai yn Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun, Rhondda Cynon Taf, anfonwyd llythyr arall yn gynharach y mis hwn, ar 15 Mehefin, at bob un sy’n cymryd rhan yn yr ymgynghoriad, gan gynnwys awdurdodau lleol, yn sôn am y posibilrwydd o sefydlu dyletswydd statudol arnynt i gynnal arolwg o rieni â phlant blwydd neu ddwyflwydd oed, cyn iddynt ddechrau’r ysgol, i weld a ydynt yn awyddus i ddilyn y trywydd addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar gyfer eu plant. Felly, gofynnwn i’r awdurdodau lleol ymateb yn gadarnhaol i’r syniad hwnnw ac i unrhyw ganlyniadau wrth fesur y galw am addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn dilyn yr arolwg o rieni â phlant dwyflwydd oed.

The First Minister: Following the letter sent to all local authorities at the time of the launch of the strategy on 13 May at Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun, Rhondda Cynon Taf, another letter was sent out earlier this month, on 15 June, to all consultees, including local authorities, raising the possibility of establishing a statutory duty for them to review the wishes of parents of children aged one or two before they start school, to see whether they want their children to be educated through the medium of Welsh. Therefore, we ask all local authorities to respond positively to that idea and to the results of surveys of demand for Welsh-medium education from the parents of two-year-olds.

Paul Davies: Mae ysgolion cynradd bach yn chwarae rhan allweddol wrth hybu’r Gymraeg yn ein cymunedau. Maent yn sicrhau bod yr iaith yn parhau yn ein hardaloedd drwy addysg ein plant. Felly, pan fydd ysgol fach yn cau mewn cymuned Gymraeg ei hiaith, gall hyn gael effaith fawr ar y gymuned honno. A ydych yn cytuno, Brif Weinidog, ei bod yn hanfodol cynnal asesiad cymunedol cyn cau unrhyw ysgol gynradd, oherwydd yr effaith y gall hyn ei gael ar y gymuned gyfan?

Paul Davies: Small primary schools play a key role in promoting the Welsh language in our communities. They ensure that the language is alive in our areas as a result of children’s education. Therefore, when a small school closes in a Welsh-speaking community, it can have a big impact on that community. Do you agree, First Minister, that it is essential that we undertake a community assessment before closing any primary school, because of the effect that it can have on the whole community?

Y Prif Weinidog: Y rhesymau addysgol a ddylai ddod yn gyntaf. Credaf fod pawb, ym mhob cornel o’r Cynulliad hwn, yn derbyn, pan fydd y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau yn gwrando ar apêl yn erbyn penderfyniad gan unrhyw awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru i gau ysgol, mai’r rhesymau addysgol sydd flaenaf, ac nid y rhesymau ariannol nac—wn i ddim sut yn union y byddech yn eu diffinio—y rhesymau cymunedol. Lles addysgol y plant yw’r brif flaenoriaeth pan fydd y Gweinidog yn ystyried apêl yn erbyn penderfyniad i gau ysgol.

The First Minister: It is educational aspects that should come first. I believe that all Members, across the Assembly, accept that, when the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills hears an appeal against a decision by any local authority in Wales to close a school, education should be the main concern, rather than financial aspects or—and I do not know how this would be defined—community arguments. The main priority when the Minister considers an appeal against a decision to close a school is the educational welfare of the children.

Priorities Blaenoriaethau

Q2 Jenny Randerson: Will the First Minister give an update on any changes to the Welsh Assembly Government’s priorities

C2 Jenny Randerson: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am unrhyw newidiadau i flaenoriaethau

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in recent weeks? OAQ(3)2118(FM) Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru dros yr wythnosau diwethaf? OAQ(3)2118(FM)

The First Minister: Just as the recession has had an impact on our priorities in recent months, our priorities have also had to reflect the changing circumstances in recent weeks, such as the effort that is now going into dealing with the onset of swine flu and the measles and mumps outbreak, both of which have assumed a new priority as they have become more serious.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn union fel y mae’r dirwasgiad wedi effeithio ar ein blaenoriaethau yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf, bu’n rhaid i’n blaenoriaethau hefyd adlewyrchu’r amgylchiadau sydd wedi newid dros yr wythnosau diwethaf, megis yr ymdrech a wneir ar hyn o bryd i fynd i’r afael â’r ffliw moch a’r achosion o’r frech goch a chlwy’r pennau, sydd wedi cael blaenoriaeth newydd am eu bod wedi dod yn fwy difrifol.

Jenny Randerson: You mentioned the recession in your answer, First Minister. In the past, you have referred frequently to the importance of ProAct as a scheme to fight the recession and as a scheme from which further education could benefit. I have obtained the figures on the ProAct money given out and found that Coleg Sir Gâr received £1.2 million but that all the other universities and colleges that benefited received a total of only £462,000, with some colleges receiving as little as £350 or £501. First Minister, will you look again at the bureaucracy and complexity of that scheme? Last week, I came across yet another example of a company that has withdrawn from it because it was too complex and it took too long. Will you reconsider your suggestion earlier this term that it was part of the solution for further education funding? No FE college will survive with just an extra £350.

Jenny Randerson: Cyfeiriasoch at y dirwasgiad yn eich ateb, Brif Weinidog. Yn y gorffennol, yr ydych wedi cyfeirio’n aml at bwysigrwydd ProAct fel cynllun i fynd i’r afael â’r dirwasgiad ac fel cynllun y gallai addysg bellach elwa ohono. Yr wyf wedi cael y ffigurau ynghylch yr arian ProAct a ddosbarthwyd ac wedi gweld fod Coleg Sir Gâr wedi cael £1.2 miliwn ond bod yr holl brifysgolion a cholegau eraill a elwodd wedi cael cyfanswm o £462,000 yn unig, gyda rhai colegau’n cael cyn lleied â £350 neu £501. Brif Weinidog, a wnewch edrych eto ar fiwrocratiaeth a chymhlethdod y cynllun hwnnw? Yr wythnos diwethaf, gwelais enghraifft arall o gwmni sydd wedi tynnu’n ôl ohono am ei fod yn rhy gymhleth ac yn cymryd gormod o amser. A wnewch ailystyried eich awgrym yn gynharach y tymor hwn ei fod yn rhan o’r ateb ar gyfer cyllido addysg bellach? Ni fydd yr un coleg addysg bellach yn goroesi gyda dim ond £350 yn ychwanegol.

The First Minister: I do not think that I have ever claimed that. What we did say was that some colleges in areas where there are clusters of companies had taken early advantage of ProAct, with Coleg Sir Gâr being a notable example. Several companies from Carmarthenshire were among the early recipients of ProAct funding. They saw an opportunity, they got involved, and they benefited from it. I am pleased that you gave those figures, as I was not aware that the figure for Coleg Sir Gâr was as high as the one that you listed. Companies in other parts of Wales have been catching up more recently, as ProAct has become better understood. We now have 215 applications on the books to consider. It will be up to

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni chredaf fy mod wedi honni hynny erioed. Yr hyn a ddywedwyd gennym oedd bod rhai colegau mewn ardaloedd lle ceir clystyrau o gwmnïau sydd wedi manteisio ar ProAct yn gynnar, a bod Coleg Sir Gâr yn enghraifft amlwg o hynny. Yr oedd nifer o gwmnïau o Sir Gaerfyrddin ymhlith y rheini a gafodd arian ProAct yn gynnar. Gwelsant gyfle, aethant ati i ymuno â’r cynllun, ac maent wedi elwa ohono. Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi rhoi’r ffigurau hynny, oherwydd nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod y ffigur ar gyfer Coleg Sir Gâr mor uchel â’r un a restrwyd gennych. Mae cwmnïau mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru wedi bod yn dal i fyny yn fwy diweddar, wrth iddynt ddeall ProAct yn well. Erbyn hyn, mae 215 o

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other colleges to show the same energy and urgency as Coleg Sir Gâr has shown. You cannot guarantee funding, as it is clearly a matter of making bids, but the scheme will be of benefit, alongside the £20 million that we have given to sustain the foundation apprenticeship schemes. ProAct is not on its own; it stands alongside ReAct, JEREMIE, joint European resources for micro to medium enterprises, and the apprenticeship scheme, all of which are anti-recession weapons.

geisiadau wedi dod i law inni eu hystyried. Bydd angen i’r colegau eraill ddangos yr un egni a brys a ddangosodd Coleg Sir Gâr. Ni allwch warantu cyllid, oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae angen gwneud ceisiadau, ond bydd y cynllun yn fuddiol, ynghyd â’r £20 miliwn a roddwyd gennym i gynnal y cynlluniau prentisiaethau sylfaenol. Nid yw ProAct ar ei ben ei hun; mae’n gweithio ochr yn ochr â ReAct, JEREMIE, sef y cyd-adnoddau Ewropeaidd ar gyfer busnesau micro i ganolig, a’r cynllun prentisiaethau, sydd i gyd yn arfau gwrth-ddirwasgiad.

David Lloyd: Brif Weinidog, yn dilyn cyhoeddi canlyniadau comisiwn Holtham cyn bo hir—yr wythnos nesaf neu’r wythnos ar ôl hynny—a ydych yn disgwyl gweld newid yn fformiwla annigonol Barnett?

David Lloyd: First Minister, following the upcoming publication of the conclusions of the Holtham commission—they will be published next week or the following week—do you expect to see a change in the inadequate Barnett formula?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n ceisio rhagweld y dyfodol a’r hyn sydd ar y gorwel—er nad y gorwel pell. Cawn weld beth fydd yn digwydd yn yr Alban yn sgîl adroddiad comisiwn Calman, a gafodd ei gyhoeddi yn yr wythnosau diwethaf. Y bwriad yw cyhoeddi canlyniadau arolwg comisiwn Holtham ar ddiwedd yr wythnos nesaf. Gwyddom fod y Trysorlys a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi dweud y byddant yn ystyried argymhellion comisiwn Calman ymhlith lefelau uchaf y gyfundrefn lywodraethol, a disgwylir iddynt ystyried gyda’r un parch ganlyniadau comisiwn Holtham ar yr un pryd.

The First Minister: That question attempts to foresee the future and what is on the horizon—even though it is not the far horizon. We will await what happens in Scotland as a result of the Calman commission report, published in the last few weeks. The intention is to publish the conclusions of the Holtham commission review at the end of next week. We know that the Treasury and the United Kingdom Government have said that they will consider the recommendations of the Calman commission at the highest levels of Government, and they will be expected to give the same respectful consideration to the Holtham commission.

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): Good afternoon, First Minister. I want to ask about the Government’s response to the Enterprise and Learning Committee’s report on the state of the economy. I want to ask specifically about the rejection of the recommendation to hold a review of the cross-portfolio working of different departments within the Government, but specifically the Department for the Economy and Transport and the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills. That all-party committee, chaired by a Plaid Cymru Assembly Member, of course, referred to fractured lines of responsibility at the heart of the Government. Why has that specific recommendation been rejected, given

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Prynhawn da, Brif Weinidog. Hoffwn holi ynglŷn ag ymateb y Llywodraeth i adroddiad y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu ynghylch cyflwr yr economi. Hoffwn holi yn benodol am y penderfyniad i wrthod yr argymhelliad i gynnal adolygiad o waith trawsbortffolio gwahanol adrannau o fewn y Llywodraeth, ond yn benodol Adran yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth a’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau. Cyfeiriodd y pwyllgor pob plaid hwnnw, a gadeirir gan un o Aelodau Cynulliad Plaid Cymru, wrth gwrs, at linellau cyfrifoldeb toredig wrth galon y Llywodraeth. Pam y gwrthodwyd yr argymhelliad penodol hwnnw, ac ystyried y pryder trawsbleidiol ynghylch hynny?

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the cross-party concern about that?

1.40 p.m.

The First Minister: If you have a department with responsibility for the supply side of the labour market, namely the skills available within the labour market, which is closely linked with education, and then you have another department that is responsible for the demand side, namely the Department for Economy and Transport, then you could argue that they should be put together in one gigantic department responsible for both the supply and demand side of the labour market. I understand that argument. The problem with it is that you then find that there are loose ends, and you would have to consider which bit of the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills you would take out. Would you take out post-16 education? Ten years ago, it was a separate department, as you will recall. However, people then always ask how you make a distinction between education up to the age of 16 and after the age of 16, so we decided to unify those aspects. There will always be loose ends. It is my job as First Minister to take the rap for any breakdown in communication between the two departments, but I do not believe that there are any.

Y Prif Weinidog: Os oes gennych adran sy’n gyfrifol am elfen gyflenwi’r farchnad lafur, sef y sgiliau sydd ar gael o fewn y farchnad lafur, sydd wedi’i chysylltu’n agos ag addysg, ac yna bod gennych adran arall sy’n gyfrifol am yr elfen alw, sef Adran yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, yna gallech ddadlau y dylid eu cyfuno’n un adran enfawr sy’n gyfrifol am elfennau cyflenwi a galw’r farchnad lafur. Yr wyf yn deall y ddadl honno. Y broblem gyda hynny yw y byddwch wedyn yn gweld bod rhai elfennau nad ydynt yn perthyn, a byddai’n rhaid ichi ystyried pa ran o’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau y byddech yn ei thynnu allan. A fyddech yn tynnu addysg ôl-16 allan? Fel y cofiwch, ddeng mlynedd yn ôl, yr oedd yn adran ar wahân. Fodd bynnag, bydd pobl wedyn bob amser yn gofyn sut y mae gwahaniaethu rhwng addysg hyd at 16 oed ac ar ôl 16 oed, felly penderfynasom uno’r ddwy agwedd honno. Ceir elfennau nad ydynt yn perthyn bob amser. Fy swydd fel Prif Weinidog yw ysgwyddo’r bai am unrhyw ddiffyg cyfathrebu rhwng y ddwy adran, ond ni chredaf fod diffyg cyfathrebu rhyngddynt.

Nick Bourne: You seem to have answered a question that I did not ask, about whether the departments should be merged. That was not the question. My question was about whether there should be better cross-portfolio working. The committee thought that that was falling down with regard to those departments. I wish to move on to two other specific points in the Government response to the committee report. One is the manufacturing strategy. We locked horns when we last discussed this, but it is now the Government’s position that there will be a manufacturing strategy. That has been accepted. However, there is still no timetable and no sense of urgency within the Government’s response, given that the committee asked for the work to begin in the second half of 2009, which starts tomorrow, I think. We are pretty close to that. That is one issue.

Nick Bourne: Ymddengys eich bod wedi ateb cwestiwn na ofynnwyd gennyf, ynghylch a ddylid uno’r adrannau. Nid dyna oedd y cwestiwn. Yr oedd fy nghwestiwn yn gofyn a ddylid cael gwell gwaith trawsbortffolio. Yr oedd y pwyllgor o’r farn bod hynny’n dirywio yng nghyswllt yr adrannau hynny. Hoffwn symud ymlaen at ddau bwynt penodol arall o ran ymateb y Llywodraeth i adroddiad y pwyllgor. Mae un yn ymwneud â’r strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu. Yr oeddem yn croesi cleddyfau y tro diwethaf inni drafod hyn, ond safbwynt y Llywodraeth erbyn hyn yw y bydd strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu yn cael ei llunio. Derbyniwyd hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid oes amserlen o hyd ac nid oes ymdeimlad o frys yn ymateb y Llywodraeth, ac ystyried bod y pwyllgor wedi gofyn am ddechrau’r gwaith yn ail hanner 2009, sy’n dechrau yfory, yr wyf yn credu. Yr ydym yn eithaf agos at hynny. Dyna un mater.

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The other point is in relation to rate relief. The committee made a recommendation that this be extended along the lines of the Scottish model. That recommendation has been rejected, but the Government response goes on to say that the Government is

Mae’r pwynt arall yn ymwneud â rhyddhad ardrethi. Argymhellodd y pwyllgor y dylid ymestyn hwn, yn debyg i fodel yr Alban. Gwrthodwyd yr argymhelliad, ond â ymateb y Llywodraeth yn ei flaen i ddweud bod y Llywodraeth yn

‘commissioning research into the effectiveness of rates relief’.

‘comisiynu ymchwil i effeithiolrwydd y rhyddhad ardreth’.

I am not clear as to why that is being done, if you have rejected any reform of rate relief—perhaps you have not, but given that this research is to be done, when and how will it be done, what is the timescale and will there be a report back to the Assembly on that?

Ni wn yn iawn pam mae hynny’n cael ei wneud, os ydych wedi gwrthod unrhyw ddiwygio ar ryddhad ardrethi—efallai nad ydych wedi’i wrthod, ond ac ystyried y bydd yr ymchwil hwn yn cael ei wneud, pryd a sut y bydd yn cael ei wneud, beth yw’r amserlen ac a fydd adroddiad yn cael ei gyflwyno’n ôl i’r Cynulliad ynghylch hynny?

The First Minister: I apologise if I misheard your first question—certainly, I regard better cross-portfolio working as my responsibility. I am not aware of any failures of Jane Hutt’s department and Ieuan Wyn Jones’s department to work together; it is critical that they do so during a recession. As regards the manufacturing strategy, the Department for Economy and Transport ministerial advisory group, chaired by Richard Parry-Jones, has recently completed its strategic review, as you will be aware from recent exchanges, on the whole of the economy and transport portfolio. I believe that it has done a very effective job. Whether you would consider that as including a manufacturing strategy or whether there should be a separate manufacturing strategy is the matter that occasioned some consideration. No-one wants to simply repeat an exercise—that is just box ticking. The difficulty that we had, when you last raised this question a month ago, was whether the Welsh manufacturing forum, chaired by Roger Evans, was itself proposing to produce a manufacturing strategy or whether it wanted us to produce one, because it was not aware at the time of the work already going on. I think that it is agreed now that we will produce a manufacturing strategy, working very closely with the Welsh manufacturing forum. It is a body that has proved to be very active and we place a high priority on getting the manufacturing industry through the recession in the best possible shape, and ready for the

Y Prif Weinidog: Ymddiheuraf os na chlywais eich cwestiwn cyntaf yn iawn—yn sicr, yr wyf yn ystyried fy mod yn gyfrifol am sicrhau gwell gwaith trawsbortffolio. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod adran Jane Hutt ac adran Ieuan Wyn Jones wedi methu cydweithio â’i gilydd; mae’n hanfodol eu bod yn cydweithio yn ystod dirwasgiad. Yng nghyswllt y strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu, mae grŵp cynghori gweinidog Adran yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, a gadeirir gan Richard Parry-Jones, wedi cwblhau ei adolygiad strategol yn ddiweddar, fel y gwyddoch ar sail trafodion diweddar, ynghylch y portffolio economi a thrafnidiaeth yn ei gyfanrwydd. Credaf ei fod wedi gwneud ei waith yn effeithiol iawn. Y mater a gafodd ei ystyried yn helaeth oedd pa un ai a fyddech yn ystyried bod hwnnw’n cynnwys strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu ynteu a ddylid cael strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu ar wahân. Nid oes ar neb eisiau ailadrodd ymarfer yn unig—ticio blychau yw hynny. Yr anhawster a gawsom, pan godwyd y cwestiwn hwn gennych ddiwethaf fis yn ôl, oedd pa un ai a oedd fforwm gweithgynhyrchu Cymru, a gadeirir gan Roger Evans, yn cynnig llunio strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu ynteu a oedd yn dymuno i ni ei chynhyrchu, am nad oedd yn ymwybodol ar y pryd o’r gwaith a oedd eisoes yn mynd rhagddo. Credaf y cytunir erbyn hyn y byddwn yn llunio strategaeth gweithgynhyrchu, gan weithio’n agos iawn gyda fforwm gweithgynhyrchu Cymru. Corff yw hwn sydd wedi bod yn weithgar iawn ac

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upturn. yr ydym yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i helpu’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu i ddod drwy’r dirwasgiad yn y cyflwr gorau bosibl, ac yn barod ar gyfer y cynnydd economaidd.

On the question of rate relief, there are three rate relief schemes in existence at the moment, and we want to find out how well those are working before considering any other schemes.

Ynghylch rhyddhad ardrethi, mae tri chynllun rhyddhad ardrethi yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd, ac yr ydym am ganfod pa mor dda y maent yn gweithio cyn ystyried unrhyw gynlluniau eraill.

Nick Bourne: I wish the First Minister to address an area of specific concern, which I am sure concerns him and Members across the Chamber, and that is the future of Anglesey Aluminium Ltd. Could you let us know what is happening there? The spectre of redundancy is hanging over the heads of the workers there, and there is a real sense of urgency.

Nick Bourne: Dymunaf i’r Prif Weinidog roi sylw i faes sy’n peri pryder penodol, sy’n berthnasol iddo ef ac i Aelodau ar draws y Siambr, sef dyfodol Alwminiwm Môn Cyf. A allech roi gwybod inni beth sy’n digwydd yno? Mae posibilrwydd y bydd swyddi’n cael eu colli yn gysgod dros y gweithwyr yno, a cheir gwir ymdeimlad o frys.

The First Minister: We are in the middle of the 90-day consultation period, which the company announced about a month or so ago. The 500 members of staff must be extremely concerned in the run-up to the expiry of the power price contract. So far, it has proved difficult to bring the two sides together. The recession has, on the one hand, caused a drop in the wholesale price of electricity, which is good for Anglesey Aluminium, but, on the other hand, it has produced an even bigger drop in wholesale price of aluminium. So, the scissors effect of that on the company means that, at the moment, it is still considering all the options. It would not want to commit to saying that, provided that it could get a specific price, it would be able to produce aluminium at that smelter at a profit. The problem is how long the recession in commodities, such as aluminium, will last. At what point will the price come up to allow it to produce at a profit there? What impact would that have on the wholesale price of electricity? At the moment, it is difficult to bridge that gap, but we are continuing in our efforts to do so.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yng nghanol y cyfnod ymgynghori 90 diwrnod, a gyhoeddwyd gan y cwmni oddeutu mis yn ôl. Rhaid bod y 500 aelod o staff yn pryderu’n fawr wrth i’r contract pris pŵer ddod i ben. Hyd yn hyn, mae dod â’r ddwy ochr ynghyd wedi bod yn anodd. Ar un llaw, mae’r dirwasgiad wedi achosi cwymp ym mhris cyfanwerthu trydan, sy’n beth da i Alwminiwm Môn, ond, ar y llaw arall, mae wedi arwain at gwymp hyd yn oed yn fwy ym mhris cyfanwerthu alwminiwm. Felly, mae effaith siswrn hynny ar y cwmni yn golygu, ar hyn o bryd, ei fod yn dal i ystyried yr holl ddewisiadau. Ni fyddai am ymrwymo i ddweud, cyn belled ag y gallai gael pris penodol, y gallai wneud elw o gynhyrchu alwminiwm yn y ffwrnais fwyndoddi honno. Y broblem yw pa mor hir y bydd y dirwasgiad mewn nwyddau, megis alwminiwm, yn para. Pryd y bydd y pris yn codi i’w alluogi i wneud elw wrth gynhyrchu yn y maes? Pa effaith a gâi hynny ar bris cyfanwerthol trydan? Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n anodd pontio’r bwlch hwnnw, ond yr ydym yn parhau i geisio gwneud hynny.

Alternative Energy Ynni Amgen

Q3 Mick Bates: Will the First Minister make a statement on alternative energy sources in Wales? OAQ(3)2107(FM)

C3 Mick Bates: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am ffynonellau ynni amgen yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)2107(FM)

The First Minister: Our studies indicate that Y Prif Weinidog: Mae ein hastudiaethau’n

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Wales could produce at least 33 TWh per year of electricity from renewable technologies by 2025—with about a half of this from marine technology, a third from onshore and offshore wind technology and the rest mainly from sustainable biomass sources.

dangos y gallai Cymru gynhyrchu o leiaf 33 TWh o drydan y flwyddyn drwy dechnolegau adnewyddadwy erbyn 2025—gyda thua hanner hynny’n dod o dechnoleg forol, traean o dechnoleg gwynt ar y tir ac ar y môr, a’r gweddill o ffynonellau biomas cynaliadwy gan fwyaf.

Mick Bates: Thank you for that vision of renewable energy production in Wales. Whatever the source of alternative energy production, the electricity produced has to be sent down wires before it can be used. The existing distribution system cannot accommodate the amount of electricity generation proposed under technical advice note 8, let alone the more ambitious targets to which you have just referred, as suggested in the renewable energy strategy. What is your Government doing to ensure that there is sufficient distribution and grid capacity to cater for the electricity production that you have just outlined?

Mick Bates: Diolch am y weledigaeth honno o gynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru. Beth bynnag yw ffynhonnell yr ynni amgen a gynhyrchir, rhaid anfon y trydan a gynhyrchir ar hyd gwifrau cyn y gellir ei ddefnyddio. Ni all y system ddosbarthu bresennol ddelio â’r trydan y cynigir ei gynhyrchu dan nodyn cyngor technegol 8, heb sôn am y targedau mwy uchelgeisiol yr ydych newydd gyfeirio atynt, fel yr awgrymir yn y strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy. Beth mae eich Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau y gall y grid ddosbarthu’r trydan yr ydych newydd sôn am ei gynhyrchu?

The First Minister: The Deputy First Minister and I had a meeting with the National Grid on this point about two months ago, to seek to persuade it to prepare for the day when there will be a need for much improved grid connections, especially from central Wales, where there has never been a proper electricity grid. As you are aware, the north Wales grid is linked to that of north-west England, and the south Wales grid is linked to that of south-central England, but mid Wales does not have an electricity grid of any substance. Erecting pylons in rural areas, and transporting heavy equipment in order to erect them, is a matter of considerable concern to local residents, planners, authorities and so on, but it is a job that will have to be done—the National Grid accepts that.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cafodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a minnau gyfarfod â’r Grid Cenedlaethol am y pwynt hwn tua deufis yn ôl, i geisio ei berswadio i baratoi ar gyfer y dydd pan fydd angen llawer gwell cysylltiadau grid, yn enwedig o’r canolbarth, sydd erioed wedi cael grid trydan go iawn. Fel y gwyddoch, mae grid y gogledd wedi’i gysylltu â grid gogledd-orllewin Lloegr, ac mae grid y de wedi’i gysylltu â grid canol de Lloegr, ond nid oes gan y canolbarth grid trydan o unrhyw sylwedd. Mae codi peilonau mewn ardaloedd gwledig, a chludo cyfarpar trwm er mwyn eu codi, yn destun pryder sylweddol i breswylwyr lleol, cynllunwyr, awdurdodau ac ati, ond bydd rhaid gwneud y gwaith—mae’r Grid Cenedlaethol yn derbyn hynny.

Lesley Griffiths: A recent study by the European Photovoltaic Industry Association confidently predicted that, by 2020, solar power could be challenging electricity companies in meeting up to 12 per cent of the EU’s demand without subsidy. Indeed, it is predicting that, in parts of Europe, such as southern Italy and large parts of Spain, solar power will be competitive by next year. This is good news for Wales, because, as you know, Sharp Electronics (UK) Ltd has made

Lesley Griffiths: Rhagwelodd astudiaeth ddiweddar gan Gymdeithas Diwydiant Ffotofoltäig Ewrop yn hyderus y gallai pŵer solar, erbyn 2020, fod yn herio cwmnïau trydan drwy fodloni hyd at 12 y cant o alw’r UE heb gymhorthdal. Yn wir, mae’n rhagweld, mewn rhannau o Ewrop megis de’r Eidal a rhannau mawr o Sbaen, y bydd pŵer solar yn gystadleuol erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae hyn yn newyddion da i Gymru, oherwydd, fel y gwyddoch, mae Sharp

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Wrexham the solar powerhouse of Europe through its photovoltaic cell development and export of solar panels to Germany. When you next meet UK Government Ministers, will you make a special plea that Wales be given the means to help the UK to embrace solar energy? All we need is the policy will.

Electronics (UK) Cyf wedi sicrhau mai Wrecsam yw prif bwerdy solar Ewrop drwy ei waith o ddatblygu celloedd ffotofoltäig ac allforio paneli solar i’r Almaen. Y tro nesaf ichi gwrdd â Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU, a wnewch ble arbennig iddynt alluogi Cymru i helpu’r DU i groesawu ynni solar? Dim ond yr ewyllys polisi sydd ei angen arnom.

The First Minister: Yes, but we also need some technology breakthroughs. I have visited the Sharp plant and what it is doing, as the powerhouse for photovoltaics, is impressive. I doubt whether there is a bigger factory anywhere in Europe producing such panels. However, the next stage, to get to the subsidy-free stage and to bring the cost of solar power down from 8p per KWh to a more competitive 3p, requires some pretty big technological leaps. That is why we have put a considerable sum of money—I think that it is £5 million—into the Corus and Dyesol project in Shotton to produce living walls, where solar cells are sprayed onto the walls and roofs of factories and commercial buildings. Likewise, the thin film project in Cardiff shows some promise of being able to produce that kind of price breakthrough. The price needs to be halved if it is to stand any chance of getting anywhere near conventional electricity generation. We are a long way from that at the moment.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ie, ond mae arnom angen rhai datblygiadau technolegol allweddol hefyd. Yr wyf wedi ymweld â ffatri Sharp ac mae’r hyn y mae’n ei wneud, fel pwerdy gwaith ffotofoltäig, yn drawiadol. Nid wyf yn siŵr a oes ffatri fwy yn unman yn Ewrop sy’n cynhyrchu paneli o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, mae angen camau technolegol breision i gyrraedd y cam nesaf, sef cyrraedd y cam lle na cheir cymhorthdal a gostwng cost pŵer solar o 8c am bob kWh i 3c, a fyddai’n fwy cystadleuol. Dyna pam ein bod wedi rhoi swm sylweddol o arian—credaf mai £5 miliwn ydoedd—i brosiect Corus a Dyesol yn Shotton i gynhyrchu waliau byw, lle caiff celloedd solar eu chwistrellu ar waliau a thoeau ffatrïoedd ac adeiladau masnachol. Yn yr un modd, mae’r prosiect ffilm tenau yng Nghaerdydd yn dangos rhywfaint o addewid o ran gallu cynhyrchu’r math hwnnw o ddatblygiad allweddol o ran pris. Mae angen haneru’r pris er mwyn iddo gael unrhyw gyfle o ddod yn agos at gynhyrchu trydan confensiynol. Yr ydym yn bell oddi wrth hynny ar hyn o bryd.

Angela Burns: Good afternoon, First Minister. You stated earlier that you anticipate at least half of renewable energy being sourced from marine technology—an ambition with which I heartily agree. As you are aware, marine technologies are in their infancy and we need to prototype many technologies. Following on from what Mick Bates said, electricity hook-ups are scarce around the coast of Wales. What discussions have you, or any of your Ministers, had with Western Power Distribution (South Wales) plc on the creation of marine hubs around the coast of Wales, as has been done in Scotland and south-west England, in order to allow these infant companies to trial their prototypes, which are so essential for alleviating the perils of climate change.

Angela Burns: Prynhawn da, Brif Weinidog. Dywedasoch yn gynharach eich bod yn rhagweld y bydd o leiaf hanner yr ynni adnewyddadwy’n tarddu o dechnoleg forol—ac yr wyf yn cytuno’n frwd â’r uchelgais hwnnw. Fel y gwyddoch, mae technolegau morol yn newydd iawn, ac mae angen cyfnod prototeip ar nifer o dechnolegau. I ddilyn yr hyn a ddywedodd Mick Bates, nid oes llawer o gysylltiadau trydan o gwmpas arfordir Cymru. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych chi, neu unrhyw un o’ch Gweinidogion, wedi’u cael gyda Western Power Distribution (De Cymru) ccc am greu bothau morol o gwmpas arfordir Cymru, fel y gwnaethpwyd yn yr Alban a de-orllewin Lloegr, er mwyn galluogi’r cwmnïau newydd hyn i dreialu eu prototeipiau, sydd mor hanfodol ar gyfer lleihau peryglon newid yn yr hinsawdd.

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1.50 p.m.

The First Minister: You have correctly described the marine hub concept: in order for the technology to be taken from a drawing or a computerised drawing equivalent to actuality—even a working model in the water—you have to have an electricity hook-up point and half-a-dozen different technologies before you can even carry out experiments. We do not have that yet. With regards to the long-term potential, I believe that both the Anglesey end and the Pembrokeshire end of Wales, as well as the Severn barrage further up the Bristol channel, have enormous potential for generating marine electricity either from wave, tidal stream or tidal barrage technologies. In the meantime, experimental facilities are required in order to enable people to turn concepts into working models in the marine environment. Whether you definitely need those experiments to take place in Wales for us to exploit the technology in Wales is perhaps a different issue.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych wedi disgrifio cysyniad y bothau morol yn gywir: er mwyn cymryd y dechnoleg o ddarlun neu ddarlun cyfrifiadurol sy’n cynrychioli’r gwirionedd—neu fodel sy’n gweithio yn y môr, hyd yn oed—bydd arnoch angen pwynt cysylltu trydan a hanner dwsin o wahanol dechnolegau cyn y gallwch gynnal arbrofion, hyd yn oed. Nid yw hynny gennym eto. O ran y potensial hirdymor, credaf fod potensial enfawr o gwmpas Ynys Môn ac o gwmpas sir Benfro, yn ogystal â’r morglawdd Hafren ymhellach i fyny sianel Bryste, i gynhyrchu trydan morol naill ai drwy dechnolegau tonnau, ffrwd llanw neu forglawdd llanw. Yn y cyfamser, mae angen cyfleusterau arbrofol er mwyn galluogi pobl i droi cysyniadau’n fodelau sy’n gweithio yn yr amgylchedd morol. Efallai mai mater arall yw a fyddai angen cynnal yr arbrofion hyn yng Nghymru o reidrwydd er mwyn defnyddio’r dechnoleg yng Nghymru.

A465 Heads of the Valleys Trunk Road Cefnffordd A465 Blaenau’r Cymoedd

Q4 Trish Law: Will the First Minister give an update on future plans for the dualling of the A465 Heads of the Valleys trunk road? OAQ(3)2117(FM)

C4 Trish Law: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynlluniau yn y dyfodol i newid cefnffordd A465 Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn ffordd ddeuol? OAQ(3)2117(FM)

The First Minister: Ieuan Wyn Jones, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport, announced the Assembly Government’s reprioritised trunk road forward programme last December. It gave a commitment to complete the Heads of the Valleys dualling scheme by 2020, in line with ‘Turning Heads—A Strategy for the Heads of the Valleys 2020’, which was announced in 2005.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cyhoeddodd Ieuan Wyn Jones, y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, flaenraglen gefnffyrdd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gyda’i blaenoriaethau newydd fis Rhagfyr diwethaf. Rhoddodd ymrwymiad i gwblhau cynllun newid cefnffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn ffordd ddeuol erbyn 2020, yn unol â ‘Syniadau Blaengar—Strategaeth ar gyfer Blaenau’r Cymoedd 2020’, a gyhoeddwyd yn 2005.

Trish Law: There was an interesting discussion in the Finance Committee meeting on 11 June, but it was a discussion that threw up some disturbing findings. The Welsh Assembly Government talks about dualling being completed by 2020, although I have correspondence going back some years that suggests that the whole A465 would be a

Trish Law: Cafwyd trafodaeth ddiddorol yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar 11 Mehefin, ond yr oedd rhai o ganfyddiadau’r drafodaeth yn peri pryder. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn sôn am orffen y gwaith o newid y ffordd yn ffordd ddeuol erbyn 2020, ond mae gennyf ohebiaeth ers rhai blynyddoedd yn ôl sy’n awgrymu y byddai’r

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dual carriageway well before then. It emerged in the Finance Committee that there is now no start date for the next and subsequent phases of dualling. The Deputy Minister for Regeneration said that the Welsh Assembly Government was working to a timetable to try to deliver it by 2020. Will you come off the fence and state categorically when you expect work to start on the next phase and that the A465 will be wholly dual carriageway by 2020?

A465 gyfan yn ffordd ddeuol ymhell cyn hynny. Daeth i’r amlwg yn y Pwyllgor Cyllid nad oes dyddiad dechrau bellach ar gyfer camau nesaf y gwaith o’i newid yn ffordd ddeuol. Dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gweithio’n unol ag amserlen i geisio darparu hynny erbyn 2020. A ddowch oddi ar y ffens a datgan yn bendant pryd yr ydych yn disgwyl i waith y cam nesaf ddechrau, ac y bydd yr A465 gyfan yn ffordd ddeuol erbyn 2020?

The First Minister: The strategic capital investment fund, which took its decisions recently with Ministers present to receive the recommendations, determined that the next phase—I believe that it is Brynmawr to Tredegar—will be moving ahead to the design phase. The design phase alone costs millions of pounds and we have put those millions in. Obviously, that is a way of advancing the next phase. I also understand that the subsequent phase—the very difficult phase up from Gilwern to Brynmawr—has been brought forward from phase 3 to phase 2.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, a wnaeth ei phenderfyniadau’n ddiweddar gyda Gweinidogion yn bresennol i glywed yr argymhellion, wedi penderfynu y bydd y cam nesaf—Brynmawr i Dredegar, credaf—yn symud ymlaen i’r cam dylunio. Mae’r cam dylunio ei hun yn costio miliynau o bunnoedd, ac yr ydym wedi buddsoddi’r miliynau hynny. Yn amlwg, mae hynny’n ffordd o symud ymlaen â’r cam nesaf. Deallaf hefyd fod y cam nesaf wedyn—y cam anodd iawn i fyny o Ilwern i Frynmawr—wedi’i symud ymlaen o gam 3 i gam 2.

Christine Chapman: As Trish Law has mentioned, the dualling of the A465 is an issue of enormous importance in ensuring the sustainable long-term regeneration of the Heads of the Valleys area and its surrounding communities. While we rightly remember the economic benefits that would come from dualling, we must also remember the range of equally important human benefits. Dualling will reduce the number of accidents on a stretch of road that has been marked all too often by tragedy. The Hirwaun to Merthyr stretch of the road is a dangerous one. I believe that there has been, and continues to be, a disproportionate number of fatalities there and that needs urgent attention. The impression that the project is being delayed unnecessarily can therefore lead to understandable feelings of frustration and anger within the communities that the dualling project would serve. Do you agree that it is imperative that we do all that we can to make the A465 as safe as possible as quickly as possible?

Christine Chapman: Fel y dywedodd Trish Law, mae newid yr A465 yn ffordd ddeuol yn fater pwysig dros ben o ran sicrhau adfywio hirdymor cynaliadwy yn ardal Blaenau’r Cymoedd a’r cymunedau cyfagos. Wrth gofio’r buddiannau economaidd a fyddai’n dod o’i newid yn ffordd ddeuol, rhaid inni hefyd gofio’r amrywiaeth o fuddiannau dynol sydd yr un mor bwysig. Bydd ei newid yn ffordd ddeuol yn lleihau nifer y damweiniau ar ddarn o ffordd sydd wedi gweld trasiedi’n llawer rhy aml. Mae’r ffordd o Hirwaun i Ferthyr yn un beryglus. Credaf y cafwyd nifer anghymesur o farwolaethau yno, a bod hynny’n parhau i ddigwydd, ac mae angen rhoi sylw i hynny ar fyrder. Felly, gall yr argraff bod y prosiect yn cael ei ddileu’n ddiangen arwain at deimladau dealladwy o rwystredigaeth a dicter yn y cymunedau y byddai’r prosiect o newid y ffordd yn ffordd ddeuol yn eu gwasanaethu. A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn hollbwysig ein bod yn gwneud popeth y gallwn i sicrhau bod yr A465 mor ddiogel â phosibl cyn gynted â phosibl?

The First Minister: I certainly do because it Y Prif Weinidog: Ydw, yn sicr, gan fod

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has had a long history of safety problems—as have all three-lane roads—caused by uncertainty over who has priority in the dreaded middle lane. The Deputy First Minister is currently considering a draft report on safety on the A465. We have commissioned recently a study on trunk road routes throughout south Wales, including the A465, to identify what you are referring to, namely collision clusters, and to prioritise locations for investigation and potential treatment. In the light of all that, I will ask the Deputy First Minister to write to you and to put a copy of the letter in the Library detailing all that we know, or are about to know, about safety issues relating to the A465.

ganddi hen hanes o broblemau diogelwch—yn yr un modd â phob ffordd tair lôn—a achosir gan ddryswch dros bwy sydd â blaenoriaeth yn y lôn ganol felltigedig. Mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ystyried adroddiad drafft am ddiogelwch ar yr A465 ar hyn o bryd. Yn ddiweddar, comisiynwyd astudiaeth gennym am lwybrau cefnffyrdd ledled y de, gan gynnwys yr A465, i ganfod yr hyn yr ydych yn cyfeirio atynt, sef clystyrau gwrthdrawiadau, ac i flaenoriaethu lleoliadau y mae angen ymchwilio iddynt a’u trin, o bosibl. Yng ngoleuni hynny i gyd, gofynnaf i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ysgrifennu atoch a rhoi copi o’r llythyr yn y Llyfrgell i roi manylion popeth yr ydym yn ei wybod, neu ar fin ei ddarganfod, am faterion diogelwch sy’n ymwneud â’r A465.

William Graham: Although all Members share in the aspiration of dualling the A465, could you give a commitment to redouble the efforts on costings? You will know that the last section cost three times more than the original estimate. That cannot continue, even though that road is vital for that part of south-east Wales.

William Graham: Er bod pob Aelod yn rhannu’r dyhead o newid yr A465 yn ffordd ddeuol, a allech roi ymrwymiad i ymdrechu’n galetach o ran costiadau? Byddwch yn gwybod bod y rhan ddiwethaf wedi costio tair gwaith yn fwy na’r amcangyfrif gwreiddiol. Ni all hynny barhau, er bod y ffordd honno’n hollbwysig i’r rhan honno o’r de-ddwyrain.

The First Minister: You are right to identify this question of the ‘optimism bias’. When civil engineers, whether they work for local authorities or for private consultants, give us the estimated costs of a new road, enthusiasm sometimes overtakes them. They have a tendency to underestimate the costs because they know that once they hook us and we start the project or agree to it, it is difficult to take them out of the programme, if the cost is then found to have doubled. We are familiar with that exercise and feel that we have been caught on a few occasions by that optimism bias. We now build in an optimism bias of up to 40 per cent when we receive reports saying, ‘This section of road can be built for £10 million or whatever’. Long gone are the days when roads were built for £8 million such as the 14-mile extension of the M4 through to Carmarthen in the early 1980s. Those days of building a dual carriageway for no more than £500,000 a mile have long gone.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn gywir wrth godi’r cwestiwn hwn o ‘duedd optimistaidd’. Pan fydd peirianwyr sifil, boed hwy’n gweithio i awdurdodau lleol ynteu i ymgynghorwyr preifat, yn rhoi amcangyfrif o gostau ffordd newydd inni, weithiau bydd brwdfrydedd yn eu trechu. Maent yn tueddu i danbrisio’r costau gan eu bod yn gwybod, ar ôl iddynt ein bachu pan fyddwn yn dechrau’r prosiect neu’n cytuno ag ef, ei bod yn anodd eu tynnu allan o’r rhaglen, os gwelir wedyn bod y gost wedi dyblu. Yr ydym yn gyfarwydd â’r arferiad hwnnw, a chredwn ein bod wedi cael ein dal gan y duedd optimistaidd honno ambell waith. Yr ydym bellach yn cynnwys tuedd optimistaidd hyd at 40 y cant pan gawn adroddiadau’n dweud ‘Gellir adeiladu’r rhan hon o’r ffordd am £10 miliwn’ neu beth bynnag. Mae’r dyddiau o adeiladu ffyrdd am £8 miliwn, megis estyniad 14 milltir yr M4 at Gaerfyrddin ar ddechrau’r 1980au, wedi hen fynd. Mae’r dyddiau hynny o adeiladu ffordd ddeuol am ddim mwy na £500,000 y filltir wedi hen fynd.

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Leanne Wood: I am disappointed that the original timetable for dualling the A465 slipped during the previous administration’s tenure. What discussions have you had about the A465 and the fact that, when the trunk road building programme was published in 2002 and 2004, the road was not given priority status in terms of investment? What representations have been made by Rhondda Cynon Taf cabinet to the One Wales Government about this road?

Leanne Wood: Yr wyf yn siomedig bod amserlen wreiddiol newid yr A465 yn ffordd ddeuol wedi llithro yn ystod cyfnod y weinyddiaeth flaenorol. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael am yr A465 ac am y ffaith, pan gyhoeddwyd y rhaglen adeiladu cefnffyrdd yn 2002 a 2004, na chafodd y ffordd statws blaenoriaeth o ran buddsoddi? Pa sylwadau y mae cabinet Rhondda Cynon Taf wedi’u cyflwyno i Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un am y ffordd hon?

The First Minister: I will have to ask the Deputy First Minister to write to you on those matters. Our recent involvement, in considering our top priorities for strategic capital investment, has indicated our commitment to this project because the next phase of the Heads of the Valleys programme, namely the section from Brynmawr to Tredegar, was considered and included in the scheme. It is a planning project, so the consulting engineering needs to be done so that the road is designed and shovel ready by the time that we next consider this. The design will probably take around two years or thereabouts.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd rhaid imi ofyn i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ysgrifennu atoch am y materion hynny. Mae ein cyfraniad diweddar, o ran ystyried ein prif flaenoriaethau ar gyfer buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, wedi nodi ein hymrwymiad i’r prosiect, oherwydd cafodd cam nesaf rhaglen Blaenau’r Cymoedd, sef y rhan o Frynmawr i Dredegar, ei ystyried a’i gynnwys yn y cynllun. Prosiect cynllunio ydyw, felly mae angen gwneud y gwaith peirianneg ymgynghorol fel bod y ffordd wedi’i dylunio a’r rhawiau’n barod erbyn y tro nesaf inni ystyried hyn. Mae’n debygol y bydd y dylunio’n cymryd oddeutu dwy flynedd.

Michael German: I, too, am disappointed about the failure of the programme to move ahead according to its timetable under this administration. There is no doubt that this whole project was designed in seven phases: two phases have been delivered—the last of which was completed in 2004, but sections 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 are still to be completed. All of this information was drawn from the Assembly Government’s website as it currently stands. It states, in various formats, that no start dates have been given for sections 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7. There is no date for starting work on any of those sections.

Michael German: Yr wyf fi, hefyd, wedi fy siomi â methiant y rhaglen i symud ymlaen yn unol â’i hamserlen dan y weinyddiaeth hon. Nid oes amheuaeth bod y prosiect cyfan hwn wedi cael ei ddylunio mewn saith cam: mae dau gam wedi’u cyflawni—cwblhawyd yr olaf o’r rhain yn 2004, ond mae adrannau 2, 3, 5, 6 a 7 yn dal heb eu cwblhau. Cafwyd yr wybodaeth hon i gyd o wefan Llywodraeth y Cynulliad fel y mae ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n datgan, ar wahanol fformatau, nad oes dyddiadau dechrau wedi’u rhoi ar gyfer adrannau 2, 3, 5, 6 a 7. Nid oes dyddiad ar gyfer dechrau gweithio ar unrhyw un o’r adrannau hynny.

Given the time it takes to get planning permissions and everything else in place, would you like to revise your view that that work on all five sections will be completed by 2020, particularly as the money that you were going to spend in those later years has been moved to be spent in more current years? Should that money not be committed to ensuring that this road can be delivered on time? I do not think that that will be possible—do you?

O ystyried yr amser y mae’n ei gymryd i sicrhau caniatâd cynllunio a phopeth arall, a hoffech ailystyried eich barn y bydd y gwaith ar bob un o’r pum adran wedi’i gwblhau erbyn 2020, yn enwedig gan fod yr arian yr oeddech am ei wario yn y blynyddoedd olaf hynny wedi’i symud i’w wario mewn blynyddoedd mwy presennol? Oni ddylid ymrwymo’r arian hwnnw i sicrhau y gellir cwblhau’r ffordd hon yn unol â’r amserlen? Nid wyf yn credu y bydd hynny’n bosibl—a

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ydych chi?

The First Minister: You have overhyped your proposition because you have missed a section out. During the period of my administration, we have started and finished the Dowlais Top to Tredegar section, which was then followed by the Abergavenny to Gilwern section—that has opened and is, I think, the one that you forgot about. As I said, we have only just finished that. Again, we have just approved, for strategic capital investment purposes, the full-scale design exercise of the Tredegar to Brynmawr section. I am told that that will take two years. Once that road has been designed, we will have to go out to consultation on the draft order. That might take a further year, but subject to outcome, we hope that that work will start in 2012.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych wedi rhoi gormod o heip i’ch gosodiad, oherwydd yr ydych wedi hepgor un rhan. Yn ystod cyfnod fy ngweinyddiaeth, yr ydym wedi dechrau a gorffen rhan Dowlais Top i Dredegar, a dilynwyd hynny gan ran Y Fenni i Ilwern—sydd wedi agor, a chredaf mai am honno y gwnaethoch anghofio. Fel y dywedais, dim ond newydd orffen honno yr ydym. Eto, yr ydym newydd gymeradwyo, at ddibenion buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, ymarfer dylunio graddfa lawn y rhan o Dredegar i Frynmawr. Dywedir wrthyf y bydd hynny’n cymryd dwy flynedd. Ar ôl i’r ffordd honno gael ei dylunio, bydd rhaid inni fynd allan i ymgynghoriad o ran y gorchymyn drafft. Gallai hynny gymryd blwyddyn arall, ond gan ddibynnu ar y canlyniad, gobeithiwn y bydd y gwaith hwnnw’n dechrau yn 2012.

Armed Forces Day Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog

Q5 Jeff Cuthbert: Will the First Minister outline what the Welsh Assembly Government did to mark the inaugural Armed Forces Day on 27 June? OAQ(3)2128(FM)

C5 Jeff Cuthbert: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu beth wnaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i nodi Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog a gynhaliwyd am y tro cyntaf ar 27 Mehefin? OAQ(3)2128(FM)

The First Minister: We value the contribution made by all serving and former service personnel and by their families. We were pleased to mark Armed Forces Day, last Saturday, which included the presence of Edwina Hart as the Minister responsible for veterans’ affairs and Bill Rammell, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces at last Saturday’s event in Cardiff, which was jointly funded by the Ministry of Defence and us. The Armed Forces Day flag was flown at Cathays park and at the Senedd.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn gwerthfawrogi’r cyfraniad a wneir gan bob milwr a chyn-filwr a’u teuluoedd. Yr oeddem yn falch o nodi Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog, ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf, a oedd yn cynnwys presenoldeb Edwina Hart fel y Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb am faterion cyn-filwyr a Bill Ramell, Gweinidog Gwladol y Lluoedd Arfog yn y digwyddiad yng Nghaerdydd ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf, a gafodd ei ariannu ar y cyd gan y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn a ninnau. Yr oedd baner Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog i’w gweld yn chwifio ym Mharc Cathays ac yn y Senedd.

2.00 p.m.

Jeff Cuthbert: I had the privilege of being present at a local ceremony in Caerphilly town, together with Wayne David MP, to mark this year’s Armed Forces Day. Do you agree that such a day to celebrate the servicemen and women of the past and present, and of the future, has been a long time coming? Will you also join me in

Jeff Cuthbert: Cefais y fraint o fod yn bresennol mewn seremoni leol yn nhref Caerffili, gyda Wayne David AS, i nodi Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog eleni. A gytunwch ei bod yn hen bryd cael diwrnod o’r fath i ddathlu’r rheini sydd wedi bod yn gwasanaethu yn y Lluoedd Arfog, sy’n gwasanaethu ar hyn o bryd, ac a fydd yn

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welcoming the announcement that Cardiff has been chosen as the host city for next year’s Armed Forces Day? I hope that the event will help to engender the respect for our armed forces that they richly deserve.

gwneud hynny yn y dyfodol? A wnewch hefyd, fel minnau, groesawu’r cyhoeddiad mai dinas Caerdydd sydd wedi’i dewis i gynnal Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog y flwyddyn nesaf? Gobeithiaf y bydd y digwyddiad yn cynorthwyo i ennyn parch haeddiannol tuag at ein lluoedd arfog.

The First Minister: I would say ‘an even greater respect’ rather than ‘respect’ as though it were a new thing. I think that we always have respected the armed forces. Current conflicts and the sacrifices made by families, the sad news of which we sometimes see on television or in the newspapers, increase that degree of respect, given that ultimate sacrifices are sometimes made. I welcome the fact that Cardiff will be the host city for Armed Forces Day 2010. That will be a joint event with Cardiff County Council. Even before that, however, an event is to be held shortly in Caernarfon, on 18 July, and we shall also be making a contribution towards that. I am glad that you referred to some of the other events around Wales that also took place on 27 June.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn yn dweud ‘mwy o barch’ yn hytrach na ‘pharch’, fel petai’n rhywbeth newydd. Yr wyf yn meddwl ein bod wedi parchu’r lluoedd arfog erioed. Mae’r brwydro presennol ac aberth y teuluoedd, y newyddion trist a welwn ar y teledu neu yn y papurau newydd o bryd i’w gilydd, yn cynyddu’r parch hwnnw, gan gofio am yr aberth eithaf a wneir weithiau. Croesawaf y ffaith mai Caerdydd yw’r ddinas a fydd yn cynnal Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog 2010. Bydd hwnnw’n ddigwyddiad ar y cyd â Chyngor Sir Caerdydd. Fodd bynnag, cyn hynny hyd yn oed, cynhelir digwyddiad yng Nghaernarfon yn fuan, ar 18 Gorffennaf, a byddwn yn cyfrannu at hynny hefyd. Yr wyf yn falch ichi gyfeirio at rai o’r digwyddiadau eraill a gynhaliwyd o amgylch Cymru ar 27 Mehefin.

Alun Cairns: I pay tribute to those who organised the event in Cardiff and the events throughout Wales on the weekend. I hope that you will join me in congratulating and thanking them.

Alun Cairns: Rhoddaf deyrnged i’r rheini a drefnodd y digwyddiad yng Nghaerdydd a’r digwyddiadau ledled Cymru dros y penwythnos. Gobeithiaf yr ymunwch â mi i’w llongyfarch.

We need to be realistic about the fact that not every area marked the occasion in the same way as Cardiff. In preparation for next year’s event, what support can the Welsh Assembly Government give to all parts of Wales to ensure that those who live outside Cardiff, and not just those in Cardiff or nearby, have an opportunity to mark the event in their communities in a co-ordinated fashion?

Mae angen inni fod yn realistig ynghylch y ffaith na wnaeth pob ardal nodi’r achlysur yn yr un modd â Chaerdydd. O ran paratoi at ddigwyddiad y flwyddyn nesaf, pa gymorth y gall Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei roi i bob rhan o Gymru er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr bod y rheini sy’n byw y tu allan i Gaerdydd, ac nid y rheini yng Nghaerdydd a’r cyffiniau’n unig, yn cael cyfle i nodi’r digwyddiad yn eu cymunedau mewn ffordd gydlynol?

The First Minister: The support that we are giving this year is to the Cardiff event and the Caernarfon event, so that south Wales and north Wales are covered in that sense. Next year, our commitment will be bigger, because Cardiff will be the host city for Armed Forces Day, and the No. 1 location. That will be a big production and we will be heavily involved, in terms of commitment of staff

Y Prif Weinidog: Eleni, yr ydym yn rhoi cymorth i ddigwyddiad Caerdydd ac i ddigwyddiad Caernarfon, er mwyn sicrhau bod y de a’r gogledd yn cael cyfraniad yn yr ystyr hwnnw. Y flwyddyn nesaf, byddwn yn ymrwymo mwy, gan mai Caerdydd yw’r ddinas a fydd yn cynnal digwyddiad Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog—Caerdydd fydd y prif leoliad. Bydd hwnnw’n gyflwyniad a hanner

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time as well as financially, and we will be doing that as a joint exercise with Cardiff, as we do on other occasions.

a byddwn yn cyfrannu’n helaeth, gan ymrwymo amser staff yn ogystal ag arian, a byddwn yn gwneud hynny ar y cyd â Chaerdydd, fel y byddwn yn ei wneud ar achlysuron eraill.

As to whether on top of that additional expense we can consider grant applications from other areas that would wish to be involved, I would not like to give a financial commitment on that at this stage.

Parthed a allwn ystyried ceisiadau am grant gan ardaloedd eraill a hoffai fod yn rhan, ar ben y gost ychwanegol honno, ni hoffwn roi ymrwymiad ariannol ynghylch hynny ar hyn o bryd.

Mohammad Asghar: This is the first Armed Forces Day, which builds on the former Veterans’ Day, including not only veterans, but current members of the armed forces. While we honour our brave servicemen and women, we in Plaid have concerns about our armed forces, and not just for one day a year. There have been reports of inadequate equipment letting our troops down in conflicts abroad. Also, a question mark hangs over what is done for them once they retire from the services. Does the First Minister agree that the UK Government should equip our troops properly? Will he also agree that much more needs to be done for the wellbeing of military personnel on their return to civvy street?

Mohammad Asghar: Hwn yw’r Diwrnod y Lluoedd Arfog cyntaf. Datblygiad ydyw o Ddiwrnod y Cyn Filwyr gynt, sy’n cynnwys aelodau presennol y lluoedd arfog yn ogystal â’r cyn filwyr. Er ein bod yn anrhydeddu ein dynion a’n menywod dewr sy’n gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog, yr ydym fel Plaid yn pryderu am ein lluoedd arfog, ac nid am un diwrnod o’r flwyddyn yn unig. Bu adroddiadau am offer annigonol sy’n golygu bod ein milwyr yn cael cam mewn brwydrau dramor. Hefyd, ceir marc cwestiwn ynghylch pa gefnogaeth a gânt ar ôl iddynt ymddeol o’r gwasanaethau. A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno y dylai Llywodraeth y DU roi offer priodol i’n milwyr? A gytuna hefyd fod angen gwneud mwy o lawer er lles personél milwrol wrth iddynt ddychwelyd i fywyd arferol?

The First Minister: I would go so far as to accept that any serviceman or woman in a dangerous or hostile active environment, such as Iraq until recently and very definitively Afghanistan today, requires to be protected as far as they can be. People will say that when you put on a military uniform you expose yourself to the risk of death or injury, and, clearly, you do. On the other hand, that should not be the case unnecessarily; you should always be well protected and well defended. It has been interesting to see the switch of emphasis in the recent procurement programme—that is, the £700 million programme to adapt all armoured personnel carriers, which have proved inadequate against improvised roadside bombs, as used in Iraq originally and in Afghanistan more recently. I understand that some of the early adaptation will take place at what used to be the Royal Naval Armaments Depot at Llangennech. That work is to reinforce the undercarriages

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn yn mynd mor bell â derbyn ei bod yn rhaid gwarchod cymaint ag y bo modd ar unrhyw ddyn neu fenyw sy’n gwasanaethu mewn amgylchedd gweithredol gelyniaethus neu beryglus, megis yn Irac tan yn ddiweddar ac, yn sicr ddigon, yn Affganistan heddiw. Bydd pobl yn dweud y byddwch yn rhoi eich hun mewn perygl o anaf neu farwolaeth pan fyddwch yn rhoi gwisg filitaraidd amdanoch, ac, yn amlwg, mae hynny’n wir. Ar y llaw arall, nid felly y dylai fod o reidrwydd; dylech gael eich gwarchod a’ch amddiffyn yn dda bob amser. Bu’n ddiddorol gweld y newid pwyslais yn y rhaglen caffael ddiweddar—hynny yw, y rhaglen gwerth £700 miliwn i addasu’r holl gludwyr personél arfog, y profwyd eu bod yn annigonol yn erbyn bomiau byrfyfyr ar ochr ffyrdd, fel y defnyddiwyd yn Irac yn wreiddiol ac yn Affganistan yn fwy diweddar. Deallaf y bydd rhywfaint o’r gwaith addasu dechreuol yn Storfa Arfau y Llynges Frenhinol gynt yn Llangennech.

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of armoured personnel carriers so that they are proof against the improvised roadside bombs that are in common use by the Taleban. That is an important example of how armed forces personnel will be much better protected than they have been so far.

Bydd y gwaith hwnnw’n atgyfnerthu is fframiau cludwyr personél arfog er mwyn iddynt allu gwrthsefyll y bomiau byrfyfyr ar ochr ffyrdd a ddefnyddir yn aml gan y Taleban. Mae honno’n enghraifft bwysig o’r modd y bydd personél y lluoedd arfog yn cael gwell gwarchodaeth nag y maent wedi’i chael hyd yma.

Departmental Performance Perfformiad Adrannau

Q6 The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): Will the First Minister make a statement on the performance of the Welsh Assembly Government’s departments over the last six months? OAQ(3)2114(FM)

C6 Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am berfformiad adrannau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru dros y chwe mis diwethaf? OAQ(3)2114(FM)

The First Minister: Across all portfolios, we are making steady progress with our ‘One Wales’ agenda.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd graddol gyda’n hagenda ‘Cymru’n Un’ ym mhob portffolio.

Kirsty Williams: I am sure that you will agree that the Government’s job is not only to devise policy interventions at this difficult time for the economy, but to implement those policies adequately. I am sure that you will also agree that small businesses are the backbone of the Welsh economy, and that they need a decent cashflow to survive. To that end, will you confirm that it is the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy to treat all of those that it does business with equally, and that it looks to pay invoices as quickly as possible across the board?

Kirsty Williams: Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch nad dyfeisio ymyriadau polisi yn unig yw gwaith y Llywodraeth yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn i’r economi, ond rhoi’r polisïau hynny ar waith yn briodol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch hefyd mai busnesau bach yw asgwrn cefn economi Cymru, ac mae angen llif arian derbyniol arnynt i oroesi. I’r perwyl hwnnw, a wnewch gadarnhau mai polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yw trin pob un y mae’n gwneud busnes â hwy yn gyfartal, a’i bod yn mynd ati i dalu anfonebau mor fuan â phosibl yn gyffredinol?

The First Minister: Yes, I certainly can. I believe that around 96 per cent of bills are paid in the way that we intend, from the prompt payment statistics that we have available.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gallaf yn wir. Credaf fod oddeutu 96 y cant o filiau’n cael eu talu yn ôl ein bwriad, o’r ystadegau sydd gennym ar daliadau prydlon.

Kirsty Williams: We have uncovered evidence to suggest that you are asking training providers taking part in the Government’s ReAct scheme to pay thousands of pounds upfront to train those who have become unemployed during this economic downturn, and then leaving them waiting well over 30 days for payment of their invoices. That is way over the 10-day target for payment of invoices that you have committed to for other firms. Our research also shows that business lecturers and young entrepreneurs across Wales have not received

Kirsty Williams: Yr ydym wedi canfod tystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu eich bod yn gofyn i ddarparwyr hyfforddiant sy’n cymryd rhan yng nghynllun ReAct y Llywodraeth dalu miloedd o bunnoedd ymlaen llaw i hyfforddi’r rheini sydd wedi colli eu swyddi yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd hwn, cyn gadael iddynt ddisgwyl ymhell dros 30 diwrnod ichi dalu eu hanfonebau. Mae hynny’n uwch o lawer na’r targed 10 diwrnod ar gyfer talu anfonebau yr ydych wedi’i hymrwymo i gwmnïau eraill. Mae ein hymchwil yn dangos hefyd nad yw

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payment for providing services to the Welsh Assembly Government from as far back as last year. As a result, some businesses have been refused temporary business overdrafts, with your Government’s payment schedule cited as being unreasonable. Do you think that refusing to even look at the invoices of training providers for at least 30 days is an unfair way to treat businesses that provide a service for your Government?

darlithwyr ym maes busnes nac entrepreneuriaid ifanc ledled Cymru wedi cael eu talu am ddarparu gwasanaethau i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru mor bell yn ôl â’r llynedd. O ganlyniad, gwrthodwyd gorddrafftiau busnes dros dro i rai busnesau, gydag amserlen eich Llywodraeth ar gyfer talu yn cael ei hystyried yn afresymol. A ydych yn meddwl bod hyd yn oed gwrthod edrych ar anfonebau darparwyr hyfforddiant am o leiaf 30 diwrnod yn ffordd annheg o drin busnesau sy’n darparu gwasanaeth i’ch Llywodraeth?

The First Minister: We have simultaneous translation from Welsh to English in the Chamber, but we also need simultaneous translation from Liberal Democrat English to English. When someone provides goods or services to the Assembly Government, we aim to pay them within 10 days, and we have a pretty good record of doing so. What you are talking about now is something quite different, namely where someone provides a service to someone who, in turn, must make a grant application to us, namely the individual applicant for the ReAct scheme. That is not a provision of goods or services—that is an application for a grant, and to protect taxpayers’ money you must evaluate that grant application. The training provider is hoping to get business from the person who is making an application to us for a grant before it has been made. It will be for the training provider to decide how sure it is that that business will come in, and therefore how sure the bank is that it is a bankable proposition. I do not think that that is the same as providing goods or services to us and expecting to be paid within 10 days.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae gennym gyfieithu ar y pryd o Gymraeg i Saesneg yn y Siambr, ond mae angen cyfieithu ar y pryd o Saesneg Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i Saesneg hefyd. Pan fydd rhywun yn darparu nwyddau neu wasanaethau i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, ein nod yw eu talu o fewn 10 diwrnod, ac mae ein record yn dda iawn o ran gwneud hynny. Mae’r hyn yr ydych yn sôn amdano yn awr yn rhywbeth pur wahanol. Hynny yw, pan fydd rhywun yn darparu gwasanaeth i rywun sydd, yn ei dro, yn gorfod gwneud cais am grant i ni, sef yr ymgeisydd unigol ar gyfer y cynllun ReAct. Nid darparu nwyddau na gwasanaethau yw hynny—cais am grant ydyw, ac i ddiogelu arian y trethdalwr rhaid ichi werthuso’r cais hwnnw am grant. Mae’r darparwr hyfforddiant yn gobeithio cael busnes gan yr unigolyn sy’n gwneud y cais am grant inni cyn iddo gael ei wneud. Y darparwr hyfforddiant fydd yn penderfynu pa mor siŵr yr ydyw y bydd busnes yn dod i’w ran, ac felly pa mor sicr yw’r banc ei fod yn gynnig dibynadwy. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod hynny yr un fath â darparu nwyddau neu wasanaethau inni a disgwyl cael tâl o fewn 10 diwrnod.

Kirsty Williams: First Minister, you are relying on training companies in Wales to help you to get out of this recession, and to deliver your flagship ReAct scheme. Those businesses are invoicing your Government for services that they have delivered. If they were invoicing you for a computer, you would attempt to pay them within 10 days, but because they are dealing with real people in real difficulties who want to retrain, your department will not even look to pay that invoice within 30 days. What can you do to ensure that those businesses that are

Kirsty Williams: Brif Weinidog, yr ydych yn dibynnu ar gwmnïau hyfforddi yng Nghymru i’ch cynorthwyo i ddod o’r dirwasgiad hwn, ac i ddarparu eich cynllun ReAct blaengar. Mae’r busnesau hynny’n anfonebu eich Llywodraeth am wasanaethau y maent wedi’u darparu. Petaent yn anfon anfoneb atoch am gyfrifiadur, byddech yn ceisio eu talu o fewn 10 diwrnod, ond gan eu bod yn delio gyda phobl go iawn mewn trafferthion gwirioneddol sydd am ailhyfforddi, ni wnaiff eich adran ystyried talu’r anfoneb honno o fewn 30 diwrnod hyd

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delivering and implementing your stated polices can get a fair deal from the Welsh Assembly Government?

yn oed. Beth y gallwch ei wneud i sicrhau bod y busnesau hynny sy’n darparu ac yn gweithredu’r polisïau a nodwyd gennych yn cael chwarae teg gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru?

The First Minister: If you are talking about the provision of the goods and services afterwards—it was not what your first question was about—then I believe that we do meet the same target. Your first question was about banks refusing to give credit to training providers for the equipment that they must buy upfront, because the banks may or may not accept the estimate of the business as to how many ReAct grant applications will be approved by us. That is a matter for the bank and the training provider—it is not a matter for us, because we must protect taxpayers’ money. We get applications for ReAct, we read them, and decide that some are okay and that some are not. We do not make the estimate for the training providers as to how many successful ReAct applicants there will be for whom they can subsequently provide a training service. Once they have provided that service, and they send in the bill for the goods and services provided, we can pay them within the 10 day target.

Y Prif Weinidog: Os ydych yn sôn am ddarparu nwyddau a gwasanaethau wedyn—nid am hynny yr oeddech yn sôn yn eich cwestiwn cyntaf—yna credaf ein bod yn cyrraedd yr un targed. Yr oedd eich cwestiwn cyntaf yn ymwneud â banciau’n gwrthod rhoi credyd i ddarparwyr hyfforddiant am yr offer y mae’n rhaid iddynt ei brynu ymlaen llaw, gan fod y banciau naill ai’n derbyn neu ddim yn derbyn amcangyfrif y busnes o ran faint o geisiadau am grant ReAct y byddwn yn eu cymeradwyo. Mater i’r banc a’r darparwr hyfforddiant yw hwnnw—nid mater i ni ydyw, oherwydd rhaid i ni ddiogelu arian y trethdalwr. Byddwn yn cael ceisiadau am ReAct, byddwn yn eu darllen, ac yn penderfynu bod rhai yn iawn ac eraill ddim. Nid ydym yn amcangyfrif ar ran y darparwyr hyfforddiant faint o geisiadau ReAct llwyddiannus a geir y gallant ddarparu gwasanaeth hyfforddiant iddynt yn sgil hynny. Pan fyddant wedi darparu’r gwasanaeth hwnnw, ac yn anfon y bil am y nwyddau a’r gwasanaethau a ddarparwyd, gallwn eu talu o fewn y targed 10 diwrnod.

Kirsty Williams: Let me make this really simple for you, Presiding Officer. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] Training companies are invoicing your Government for training that they have carried out on behalf of the Government. Those invoices are not even looked at for 30 days. Is that an acceptable way to treat training providers, and, if it is not, what will you do to improve the situation?

Kirsty Williams: Gadewch imi egluro hyn yn syml iawn ichi, Lywydd. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Mae cwmnïau hyfforddi’n anfonebu eich Llywodraeth am hyfforddiant y maent wedi’i ddarparu ar ran y Llywodraeth. Nis edrychir ar yr anfonebau hynny hyd yn oed am 30 diwrnod. A yw honno’n ffordd dderbyniol o drin darparwyr hyfforddiant, ac, os nad ydyw, beth a wnewch i wella’r sefyllfa?

2.10 p.m.

The First Minister: I am not the Presiding Officer, in the first place. Secondly, you are covering completely different ground to the earlier question, in which you said that banks did not consider doing business with the Assembly Government as something that they wanted to do, because we were, in some way, unreliable payers. That is an absurd proposition. We pay, on average, about 96 per cent of invoices within 10 days. ReAct is

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn gyntaf, nid fi yw’r Llywydd. Yn ail, yr ydych yn sôn am bethau cwbl wahanol i’ch cwestiwn cynharach, pan ddywedasoch nad oedd banciau’n ystyried mentro i fusnes â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gan nad ydym, mewn rhyw ffordd, yn dalwyr dibynadwy. Mae hwnnw’n honiad gwallgof. Ar gyfartaledd, yr ydym yn talu oddeutu 96 y cant o anfonebau o fewn 10 diwrnod. Mae ReAct yn gynllun gwahanol. Nid yw’n

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a different scheme. It is not to do with the provision of goods and services, but with applications for grant. Grants are discretionary. We have to ensure that an applicant meets the conditions for a grant; however, once that has happened, and training is provided to a person who has been approved for ReAct purposes, the invoice should be paid promptly. I have had no information that that is not the case.

ymwneud â darparu nwyddau na gwasanaethau, mae’n ymwneud â cheisiadau am grant. Mae grantiau’n ddewisol. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod ymgeisydd yn bodloni’r amodau ar gyfer grant; fodd bynnag, pan fydd hynny wedi digwydd, ac ar ôl darparu hyfforddiant i unigolyn sydd wedi’i gymeradwyo at ddibenion ReAct, dylai’r anfoneb gael ei thalu’n ddiymdroi. Nid wyf wedi cael dim gwybodaeth nad felly y mae pethau.

Alun Davies: The bonfire of the quangos in 2006 was welcomed across the Chamber and throughout Wales. It certainly curbed the worst excesses of the quango culture, but, at the same time, I am sure that you will agree that we must raise the bar on delivery within the civil service. I am thinking particularly of the Welsh European Funding Office and what appears to be sometimes slow and cumbersome processing of applications for European funding. A number of people and partner organisations have serious concerns about WEFO’s ability to meet the deadlines and to deliver the projects that we all need delivered to ensure that we maximise the potential of Wales and equip people and businesses throughout this country to prepare for the economic upturn, when it comes.

Alun Davies: Croesawyd coelcerth y cwangos yn 2006 ym mhob rhan o’r Siambr a ledled Cymru. Yn bendant, llwyddodd i reoli gormodaeth gwaethaf diwylliant y cwangos, ond, ar yr un pryd, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch ei bod yn rhaid inni godi safonau o safbwynt cyflenwi yn y gwasanaeth sifil. Yr wyf yn meddwl yn benodol am Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru a’r hyn a ymddengys yn ddull araf a beichus ar adegau o brosesu ceisiadau am arian Ewropeaidd. Mae nifer o bobl yn pryderu’n fawr am allu WEFO i gwrdd â thargedau amser ac i ddarparu’r prosiectau y mae ar bob un ohonom angen iddynt gael eu darparu er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn manteisio i’r eithaf ar botensial Cymru ac yn rhoi’r gallu i bobl a busnesau ledled y wlad hon i baratoi at yr adeg pan fydd yr economi’n gwella, pan ddaw’r adeg honno.

The First Minister: Perhaps you could cite particular examples or provide them to me or to the Deputy First Minister, in whose portfolio WEFO, by and large, sits, because my impression is that we have an impressive record for extracting the last ounce out of the windfall gain caused by the drop in sterling and the rise in the euro. The equivalent areas in England, such as Cornwall, were told not to bother to try to extract that last £20 million or £50 million, whatever it might be. As amazing as it may seem, we are still dealing with the final 2006 payments, because we managed to extract the last ounce of value out of the drop in sterling. In parallel with that is the change in the value of sterling in the early years of the new convergence programme, which started on 1 January 2007. We had a report on this yesterday that said that some 30 per cent of the money involved has already been committed. I trust that all parts of Wales are benefiting from this and

Y Prif Weinidog: Efallai y gallasech ddyfynnu enghreifftiau penodol neu’u rhoi i mi neu i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, y mae WEFO, i raddau helaeth, yn rhan o’i bortffolio, oherwydd caf ar ddeall bod gennym record nodedig am gael y diferyn olaf o’r arian annisgwyl a gafwyd yn sgil y gostyngiad yn y sterling a’r cynnydd yn yr ewro. Dywedwyd wrth yr ardaloedd cyfatebol yn Lloegr, megis Cernyw, i beidio â thrafferthu ceisio cael yr £20 miliwn neu’r £50 miliwn hwnnw, beth bynnag ydoedd. Er bod hynny’n swnio’n anhygoel, yr ydym yn dal yn delio gyda thaliadau olaf 2006, oherwydd inni lwyddo i gael y diferyn olaf o werth o’r gostyngiad hwnnw yn y sterling. Ochr yn ochr â hynny ceir y newid yng ngwerth y sterling ym mlynyddoedd cynnar y rhaglen cydgyfeirio newydd, a ddechreuodd ar 1 Ionawr 2007. Cawsom adroddiad ar hyn ddoe a oedd yn dweud bod tua 30 y cant o’r arian hwnnw eisoes wedi cael ei neilltuo.

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that both the private and public sectors are benefiting.

Hyderaf fod pob rhan o Gymru yn elwa o hyn a bod y sector preifat a’r sector cyhoeddus yn elwa.

Nick Ramsay: You will be pleased to know that my question for the First Minister is quite straightforward, Presiding Officer. It relates to the answer that he gave to Kirsty Williams’s tabled question, when he said that his Government was on course to make progress in delivering on the ‘One Wales’ agenda. He will know that there are real concerns with regard to the £416 million or thereabouts of capital and revenue funding cuts that the Assembly Government is facing over the next year. Clearly, that will put an enormous strain on budgets across departments. It has been difficult for us to get an answer from Ministers as to where they see potential cuts coming over the next year or two. What advice is the First Minister giving to his Ministers on how they should prioritise the cuts in expenditure that are surely coming?

Nick Ramsay: Byddwch yn falch o glywed bod fy nghwestiwn i i’r Prif Weinidog, yn eithaf syml, Lywydd. Mae’n ymwneud â’r ateb a roddodd i’r cwestiwn a gyflwynodd Kirsty Williams, pan ddywedodd fod ei Lywodraeth ar ben ffordd i wneud cynnydd o ran darparu agenda ‘Cymru’n Un’. Bydd yn gwybod y ceir pryderon go iawn parthed y £416 miliwn neu oddeutu hynny o doriadau mewn cyllid cyfalaf a chyllid refeniw y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn eu hwynebu dros y flwyddyn nesaf. Yn amlwg, bydd hynny’n rhoi straen enfawr ar gyllidebau’r adrannau’n gyffredinol. Bu’n anodd inni gael ateb gan Weinidogion o ran lle maent yn disgwyl gweld toriadau posibl dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf. Pa gyngor mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ei roi i’w Weinidogion am sut y dylent flaenoriaethu’r toriadau mewn gwariant sy’n siŵr o ddod?

The First Minister: That is the Conservative picture and that is the Conservative strapline that pops up here and there in the sales patter that we get from politicians of your ilk, Nick. However, I do not think that anyone outside your party believes it, because they have looked at what you intend to do. You are claiming the moral high ground, saying, ‘We are much better at cutting than Labour is’ and so on, but when people ask you, ‘Where are you going to cut more than Labour, then?’, you will not say. The biter is bit here, a bit. You should be as straightforward as you can when you throw these allegations around. In relation to the £216 million in cuts that we face over the coming year, it will be tough. It is much the toughest budget exercise that we have gone through and we are seeking efficiency savings. There will be an element of reprioritisation as well as efficiency savings. It will be tough to achieve, but we expect to be able to do at least as well as Whitehall departments in finding efficiency savings and far better than any alternative Government that might claim to be good at cutting and finding efficiencies, so that it does not have to answer any questions about where it will cut. [Interruption.]

Y Prif Weinidog: Darlun y Ceidwadwyr yw hwnnw a dyna yw’r pennawd Ceidwadol sy’n codi hwnt ac yma yng nghlebran gwleidyddion o’r un blaid â chi, Nick. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn meddwl bod neb oddi allan i’ch plaid yn ei gredu, gan eu bod wedi edrych ar yr hyn y bwriadwch ei wneud. Yr ydych yn mynnu’r llaw uchaf moesegol, gan ddweud, ‘Yr ydym yn well o lawer am dorri na Llafur’ ac yn y blaen, ond pan fydd pobl yn gofyn ichi, ‘Yn lle yr ydych am dorri mwy na Llafur?’, ni ddywedwch. Mae’r sawl sy’n brathu’n cael ei frathu yma braidd. Pan fyddwch yn taflu’r honiadau hyn o amgylch y lle, dylech fynd ati i wneud hynny’n symlach. Parthed y £216 miliwn mewn toriadau a wynebwn dros y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd yn anodd. Dyma’r ymarfer anoddaf inni ei wynebu o safbwynt y gyllideb ac yr ydym yn ceisio gwneud arbedion effeithlonrwydd. Ceir elfen o ail-flaenoriaethu yn ogystal ag arbedion effeithlonrwydd. Bydd yn anodd ei gyflawni, ond disgwyliwn y gallwn wneud yr un mor dda ag adrannau Whitehall o leiaf wrth ganfod arbedion effeithlonrwydd ac y gallwn wneud yn well o lawer nag unrhyw Lywodraeth arall a fyddai’n honni efallai ei bod yn dda am ganfod arbedion effeithlonrwydd a gwneud toriadau, fel na fydd yn rhaid ateb unrhyw gwestiynau

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ynghylch lle y bydd ei doriadau’n digwydd. [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I have not borrowed anything today, as far as I am aware. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid wyf wedi cael benthyg dim heddiw, hyd y gwn i. [Chwerthin].

Community Transport Schemes Cynlluniau Trafnidiaeth Gymunedol

Q7 Sandy Mewies: Will the First Minister make a statement on the steps that the Welsh Assembly Government is taking to support community transport schemes, particularly in rural areas? OAQ(3)2103(FM)

C7 Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am y camau mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn eu cymryd i gefnogi cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig? OAQ(3)2103(FM)

The First Minister: Community transport schemes in rural areas are important, which is why we are providing £1.3 million to support 15 community transport schemes through our community transport concessionary fares initiative. A minimum of 10 per cent of the £10.8 million local transport services grant has to be used for community transport initiatives.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn bwysig. Dyna pam yr ydym yn darparu £1.3 miliwn i gefnogi 15 o gynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol drwy’n menter tocynnau teithio rhatach ar drafnidiaeth gymunedol. Rhaid defnyddio o leiaf 10 y cant o’r grant gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth lleol, sy’n werth £10.8 miliwn, ar gyfer cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol.

Sandy Mewies: I am sure that you are aware that some of those involved with the schemes were not content with how the consultation was conducted, but they are happier now that some progress has been made. However, you may also know that some people who previously qualified for free transport to hospitals no longer do. That is because the ambulance cars are also supported, which is seen as double funding. You may also be aware that ambulance cars are not always the best answer, and people who are elderly and fragile often have to wait a considerable length of time and undertake journeys of some considerable distance. Could you ensure that the Government looks to see how those cars are operating before it completely withdraws the idea of using community transport schemes for that purpose?

Sandy Mewies: Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn gwybod nad oedd rhai o’r rheini sy’n ymwneud â’r cynlluniau’n hapus ynglŷn â sut y cynhaliwyd yr ymgynghori, ond maent yn hapusach yn awr gan fod rhywfaint o gynnydd wedi’i wneud. Serch hynny, efallai y gwyddoch hefyd nad yw rhai pobl a oedd gynt yn gymwys i gael cludiant am ddim i’r ysbyty yn gymwys rhagor. Y rheswm dros hynny yw bod ceir ambiwlans yn cael cymorth hefyd a bod hynny’n cael ei ystyried yn ariannu dwbl. Efallai y gwyddoch hefyd nad ceir ambiwlans yw’r ateb gorau bob tro, a’i bod yn rhaid i bobl oedrannus a bregus ddisgwyl cryn amser yn aml a theithio cryn bellter. A allech sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn edrych i weld sut mae’r ceir hynny’n gweithio cyn iddi roi’r gorau’n llwyr i syniad defnyddio cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol at y diben hwnnw?

The First Minister: I will look into that. I was not aware that there was a clash because of the additional funding that we have provided for community transport initiatives and the alleged double funding given that car ambulances are able to benefit from it, leading to the withdrawal of funding from the

Y Prif Weinidog: Edrychaf ar hynny. Nid oeddwn yn gwybod bod gwrthdaro oherwydd yr arian ychwanegol yr ydym wedi’i ddarparu ar gyfer cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol a’r honiad ynglŷn ag ariannu dwbl am fod ambiwlansiau ceir yn gallu elwa ohono, a hynny’n arwain at beidio ag ariannu’r

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car ambulance service. I very much appreciate that frail, elderly people who have given up driving because they believe that they might become a danger to others on the road, and who find themselves dependent on a form of community transport to get to and from hospitals should not be disadvantaged.

gwasanaeth ambiwlans ceir. Yr wyf yn llwyr sylweddoli na ddylai pobl oedrannus, fregus fod dan anfantais a hwythau wedi rhoi’r gorau i yrru gan feddwl y gallent beryglu pobl eraill ar y ffordd, ac yn eu cael eu hunain yn dibynnu ar fath o drafnidiaeth gymunedol i gyrraedd yr ysbyty.

Mark Isherwood: As you know, First Minister, earlier this month, the Deputy First Minister announced that the community transport concessionary fares initiative would remain unchanged after all this year, and that his officials would be working closely with the Community Transport Association on the feasibility of a sustainable funding model. That followed concerns raised by community transport schemes in north Wales and others that the announced changes in funding and to the parameters would lead to their issuing redundancy notices and announcing that many schemes would fold. At the end of May, I received an e-mail from the north Wales community transport group saying that it was yet to hear ‘diddly-squat’ from anyone as to what the finalised eligibility criteria will be, and how it was supposed to manage them. [Interruption.] That was a quote. What action will you take to ensure that the review of the scheme for the next two years will not lead to people being reduced to taking taxi and coach services? Many people currently using them will no longer be able to afford to pay for them.

Mark Isherwood: Fel y gwyddoch, Brif Weinidog, cyhoeddodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog y byddai’r fenter tocynnau teithio rhatach ar drafnidiaeth gymunedol yn aros fel yr oedd wedi’r cyfan eleni, ac y byddai ei swyddogion yn gweithio’n glos gyda’r Gymdeithas Cludiant Cymunedol ar ddichonoldeb model ariannu cynaliadwy. Daeth hynny yn sgil pryderon a godwyd gan gynlluniau trafnidiaeth gymunedol yn y gogledd ac eraill y byddai’r newidiadau a gyhoeddwyd ar gyfer y trefniadau ariannu a’r paramedrau’n arwain at roi rhybuddion diswyddo ac at gyhoeddi y byddai llawer o gynlluniau yn dirwyn i ben. Ddiwedd mis Mai, cefais neges e-bost gan grŵp trafnidiaeth gymunedol y gogledd yn dweud nad oedd wedi clywed siw na miw eto gan neb ynglŷn â beth fydd y meini prawf cymhwysedd terfynol, a sut yr oedd i fod i’w rheoli. [Torri ar draws.] Dyfyniad oedd hynny. Pa gamau a gymerwch i sicrhau na fydd yr adolygiad o’r cynllun ar gyfer y ddwy flynedd nesaf yn golygu bod pobl yn gorfod defnyddio gwasanaethau tacsis a bysiau? Bydd llawer o’r bobl sy’n eu defnyddio ar hyn o bryd yn methu fforddio talu amdanynt rhagor.

The First Minister: I take note of your interest in the detail of the topic, and I will ask the relevant Minister to write to you.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nodaf eich diddordeb ym manylion y pwnc, a gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog perthnasol ysgrifennu atoch.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn derbyn bod teithio yng nghefn gwlad yn gallu bod yn anodd iawn, yn enwedig pan fydd rhywun yn dibynnu ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus? Yn sir Gaerfyrddin yn ddiweddar, bu hanes am ddyn a oedd yn ceisio teithio i apwyntiad ysbyty, taith a ddylai fod wedi cymryd llawer llai nag awr iddo, ond a gymerodd 10 awr. Rhaid oedd iddo fynd i’r dref gyfagos i newid o un bws i’r llall ond collodd y cysylltiad a bu’n rhaid iddo aros am fws arall. A wnewch ymrwymo, ar ran y Llywodraeth, i edrych yn fanwl ar y rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yng

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: First Minister, do you accept that travelling can be very difficult in rural areas, especially if you depend on public transport? There was a story in Carmarthenshire recently of a man who was trying to travel to a hospital appointment—a journey that should have taken less than hour that ended up taking 10 hours. He had to travel to a nearby town to change buses, but he missed the connection, so had to wait for another bus. Will you commit, on behalf of the Government, to look in detail at the public transport network in rural Wales, and do everything that you

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nghefn gwlad, a gwneud popeth o fewn eich gallu i’w gryfhau ac i sicrhau bod y cysylltiadau angenrheidiol yn eu lle er mwyn osgoi oedi gormodol?

can to strengthen the provision, and to ensure that the necessary connections are in place so as to avoid unnecessary delays?

Y Prif Weinidog: Wrth gwrs. Mae enghreifftiau fel yr un y bu ichi gyfeirio ati o’r cymhlethdod a’r aros sy’n angenrheidiol pan fydd rhywun yn colli’r cysylltiad rhywle yn y wlad, lle nad yw’r bws nesaf yn dod am ddwy neu dair awr, yn dangos cymaint mae pobl, yn enwedig pobl hŷn, ac efallai pobl sydd wedi dirywio o ran eu hiechyd, yn dibynnu ar gynlluniau fel yr un yr ydym yn siarad amdano yn awr. Dyna pam mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wedi rhoi arian ychwanegol yn y gyllideb ar gyfer eleni. Dyna pam mae’n angenrheidiol bod 10 y cant o’r £10.8 miliwn yn y grant gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth lleol hefyd yn mynd tuag at drafnidiaeth gymunedol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym am glywed am yr enghreifftiau hyn er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn roi’r gwasanaethau yn y mannau hynny lle mae’r esgid yn gwasgu.

The First Minister: Of course. There are examples, like the case to which you referred, of the complexities and the waiting that is necessary when one misses a connection in rural areas, where the next bus is not expected for two or three hours, which show how dependent some people, especially the elderly or, perhaps, people whose health has deteriorated, are on schemes such as the one that we are currently discussing. That is why the Deputy First Minister has put additional money in this year’s budget. That is why it is necessary that 10 per cent of the £10.8 million local transport services grant also goes towards community transport. However, we want to hear about these examples so that we can aim the services at those pinch points.

2.20 p.m.

Eleanor Burnham: Mae pryderon am y tocynnau mantais o ran y mentrau trafnidiaeth gymunedol am eu bod yn gweithio yn ôl y meini prawf gwreiddiol. Deallaf ein bod mewn blwyddyn drawsnewidiol ac y gwnaed y penderfyniadau ariannu yn hwyr iawn i nifer o grwpiau, sy’n ei gwneud yn anodd iddynt barhau, yn enwedig y rhai bregus fel y rhai y bu ichi gyfeirio atynt. A allwch warantu heddiw y bydd yn bosibl cael penderfyniad yn gynt o lawer y flwyddyn nesaf, os gwelwch yn dda?

Eleanor Burnham: There are concerns about concessionary fares in respect of community transport initiatives, as they operate according to the original criteria. I understand that we are in a transitional year and that funding decisions were very late being made for many groups, which makes it difficult for them to continue, especially the vulnerable ones to which you referred. Can you guarantee that decisions will be made much sooner next year, please?

Y Prif Weinidog: Fel mae’n digwydd, dim ond ddoe y trafodwyd ymestyn y cynllun tocynnau mantais at y flwyddyn nesaf a’r blynyddoedd canlynol. Yr oeddem i gyd yn gefnogol o’r penderfyniad, a byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen gyda’r cynllun. Felly, mae pob sicrwydd ynghylch hynny. Yr ydym eisiau sicrhau bod arian trethdalwyr yn talu am yr hyn yr ydym yn ei gael ac nid yr hyn nad ydym yn ei gael, sef milltiroedd nad yw’r person yn eu teithio. Rhaid gwneud yn siŵr bod y trywydd archwilio yn hollol gywir o ran hynny.

The First Minister: As it happens, only yesterday, we were discussing extending the concessionary fares scheme for next year and following years. We all supported the decision, and we will move forward with the scheme. Therefore, there is certainty in that respect. We want to ensure that taxpayers’ money goes on what is provided rather than on what is not provided, namely on the actual miles travelled. We must ensure that the audit trail is clear in that regard.

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Y Broses Wleidyddol The Political Process

C8 Paul Davies: Beth mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i annog pobl yng Nghymru i ymgysylltu â’r broses wleidyddol? OAQ(3)2099(FM)

Q8 Paul Davies: What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to encourage people in Wales to engage in the political process? OAQ(3)2099(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn diddorol iawn yn sgîl yr holl ffws a ffwdan yn San Steffan yn ddiweddar—ac yma hefyd, i raddau. Yr ydym yn cydweithio’n agos â Chomisiwn y Cynulliad a’r Comisiwn Etholiadol, sef y cyrff annibynnol sy’n gyfreithiol gyfrifol am godi ymwybyddiaeth ac annog cyfranogiad yn y system ddemocrataidd.

The First Minister: That is an interesting question in light of all the fuss and bother at Westminster recently—and here, too, to a degree. We are working closely with the Assembly Commission and the Electoral Commission, as the bodies legally responsible for raising awareness and encouraging participation in the political process.

Paul Davies: Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom i gyd fel gwleidyddion i geisio cysylltu â’n hetholwyr. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol yn adolygu cynghorau cymuned ar hyn o bryd ac yn edrych i uno rhai cynghorau sydd â diwylliant lleol hollol wahanol. A gytunwch y gall gorfodi cynghorau cymuned i uno a’u gwneud yn fwy o ran maint ddatgysylltu pobl o’r broses ddemocrataidd leol?

Paul Davies: We all, as politicians, have a responsibility to engage with our constituents. Some local authorities are currently reviewing community councils, and are looking to merge some councils that have completely different local cultures. Do you agree that forcing community councils to merge, making them into much larger organisations, can disengage people from the local democratic process?

Y Prif Weinidog: Efallai, ond efallai ddim. Dylid gwneud pob penderfyniad o’r fath yn lleol; ni ddylem eu gwneud yma. Deallaf nad oes system apêl. Mae’n fater i’r awdurdod lleol a’r cymunedau lleol neu blwyfol. Felly, os oes ffrae neu anghytundeb, dylid ei setlo’n lleol, ac nid gennym ni.

The First Minister: Perhaps, but perhaps not. All such decisions should be made locally; we should not make them here. I understand that there is no appeals system. It is a matter for local authorities and local or parish communities. Therefore, if there is an argument or disagreement, it should be settled locally, not by us.

Helen Mary Jones: First Minister, do you agree that the work that Sir Emyr Jones Parry has led with the constitutional convention has made a worthwhile contribution to engaging the public of Wales in the debate about the future of powers for the Assembly and the future of politics in Wales? Will you join me in congratulating Sir Emyr and the rest of the convention’s steering committee on what has been achieved? Can you confirm to the Assembly the timetable by which you expect to receive the report now that the public consultation period has come to an end? Can you also further confirm that, subject of course to what Sir Emyr and his colleagues have to say, this timetable would allow for the ‘One Wales’ commitment to a referendum on or before the Assembly

Helen Mary Jones: Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno bod y gwaith y mae Syr Emyr Jones Parry wedi’i arwain gyda’r confensiwn cyfansoddiadol wedi gwneud cyfraniad gwerthfawr at gynnwys y cyhoedd yng Nghymru yn y drafodaeth ynglŷn â dyfodol pwerau i’r Cynulliad a dyfodol gwleidyddiaeth yng Nghymru? A wnewch ymuno â mi i longyfarch Syr Emyr a gweddill pwyllgor llywio’r confensiwn ar yr hyn sydd wedi’i gyflawni? A allwch gadarnhau i’r Cynulliad erbyn pryd y disgwyliwch gael yr adroddiad gan fod y cyfnod ymgynghori cyhoeddus ar ben bellach? A allwch hefyd gadarnhau, gan ddibynnu wrth gwrs ar yr hyn y mae Syr Emyr a’i gyfeillion yn ei ddweud, y byddai’r amserlen hon yn caniatáu ar gyfer cynnal

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election in 2011?

refferendwm adeg etholiad y Cynulliad yn 2011 neu cyn hynny, yn unol â’r ymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’.

The First Minister: Indeed, I know of no reason why that could not be done in the light of the timetable for the publication of the convention’s conclusions. I believe that it held its last public meeting a week ago, in Cardiff. Although its public meetings have, to some extent, been affected by gatecrashers anonymous, it has nevertheless managed to draw in people through cunning devices, such as curry evenings and evenings at factory shop outlets, and so on. It has drawn in people who were not previously much engaged in the political process, let alone the constitutional process, and has managed to persuade them to take part and offer a view. In the light of the number of members of the public it has managed to bring in, drag in, or inveigle in, with the curries and so forth, it has been a remarkable exercise. I pay tribute to Sir Emyr and his team for their originality in their approach to this issue.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn wir, ni wn am yr un rheswm pam na ellid gwneud hynny yng ngoleuni’r amserlen ar gyfer cyhoeddi casgliadau’r confensiwn. Credaf iddo gynnal ei gyfarfod cyhoeddus olaf wythnos yn ôl, yng Nghaerdydd. Er bod ei gyfarfodydd cyhoeddus, i ryw raddau, wedi cael eu heffeithio arnynt gan griwiau di-wahoddiad, mae wedi llwyddo, serch hynny, i ddenu pobl drwy’r drws drwy ddefnyddio dyfeisiau cyfrwys, megis nosweithiau cyri a nosweithiau mewn canolfannau siopau ffatri, ac ati. Mae wedi denu pobl nad oeddent gynt yn ymwneud rhyw lawer â’r broses wleidyddol, heb sôn am y broses gyfansoddiadol, ac mae wedi llwyddo i’w perswadio i gymryd rhan a chynnig safbwynt. Yng ngoleuni nifer aelodau’r cyhoedd y mae wedi llwyddo i’w denu, i’w llusgo neu i’w hudo yno gyda’r cyri ac ati, mae wedi bod yn ymarfer nodedig. Rhoddaf deyrnged i Syr Emyr ac i’w dîm am fynd ati mewn ffordd mor wreiddiol.

Peter Black: We have a good record in the Assembly of engaging with a number of groups, particularly with the deaf community through the provision of British Sign Language interpretation. How can we continue that engagement, particularly with the deaf community, when courses such as that in Swansea College on British Sign Language are being withdrawn owing to cuts in their budgets from the Assembly Government?

Peter Black: Mae gennym hanes da yn y Cynulliad o feithrin cysylltiad â nifer o grwpiau, yn enwedig â’r gymuned fyddar drwy ddarparu gwasanaeth dehongli yn Iaith Arwyddion Prydain. Sut y gallwn barhau i ymgysylltu yn y modd hwnnw, yn enwedig gyda’r gymuned fyddar, pan fydd cyrsiau megis cwrs Iaith Arwyddion Prydain yng Ngholeg Abertawe’n cael eu dileu oherwydd toriadau yn eu cyllidebau gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad.

The First Minister: I am not aware of this change in course provision at Swansea. We are not responsible for every detail of course changes, but I understand the point that you make, and I will ask Jane Hutt to look into it to see whether there is adequate provision for people who want that kind of service. You are right to say that we have done as well as any part of the United Kingdom in ensuring that we engage with people who have various disabilities so that they play a full part in the political process.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o’r newid hwn yn y cyrsiau a ddarperir yn Abertawe. Nid ydym yn gyfrifol am bob manylyn newid cyrsiau, ond deallaf eich pwynt, a gofynnaf i Jane Hutt edrych ar hyn i weld a oes darpariaeth ddigonol i bobl sydd am gael y math hwnnw o wasanaeth. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle’n dweud ein bod wedi gwneud gystal ag unrhyw ran o’r Deyrnas Unedig yn sicrhau ein bod yn meithrin cysylltiad â phobl a chanddynt amrywiol anableddau er mwyn iddynt chwarae rhan lawn yn y broses wleidyddol.

Business Support Cefnogi Busnesau

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Q9 David Melding: Will the First Minister outline how the Welsh Assembly Government is providing business support to companies in South Wales Central during the recession? OAQ(3)2124(FM)

C9 David Melding: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu sut mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn darparu cefnogaeth fusnes i gwmnïau yng Nghanol De Cymru yn ystod y dirwasgiad? OAQ(3)2124(FM)

The First Minister: In the South Wales Central region, 44 offers of financial support greater than £10,000 have been made, through the Flexible Support for Business umbrella scheme, with a total value of £27 million since October 2008. That is on top of the ProAct scheme, which is also available to support businesses to survive the recession.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn rhanbarth Canol De Cymru, rhoddwyd 44 cynnig o gymorth ariannol dros £10,000, drwy gynllun ambarél Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnes, a’r rheini’n werth cyfanswm o £27 miliwn ers mis hydref 2008. Mae hynny ar ben y cynllun ProAct, sydd hefyd ar gael i gynorthwyo busnesau i oroesi’r dirwasgiad.

David Melding: I know that you will be as disturbed as we are on these benches to learn that, in the first quarter of this year, the gross domestic product of the British economy fell by 2.4 per cent, which is the biggest fall for more than 50 years and is worse than was anticipated. What evidence is there to show that the business health checks that you are developing are being taken up and that that advice is seen as high-quality business support, particularly as we come to the end of a nasty recession? This is when many companies will be most vulnerable. They have weathered the original storm but it is now that the end is in sight that they most need effective support.

David Melding: Gwn y byddwch yn poeni gymaint ag yr ydym ninnau ar y meinciau hyn o ddysgu bod cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth economi Prydain wedi gostwng 2.4 y cant yn ystod chwarter cyntaf eleni. Dyna’r cwymp mwyaf ers dros 50 mlynedd ac mae’n waeth nag a ragwelwyd. Pa dystiolaeth sydd i ddangos bod pobl yn manteisio ar y profion iechyd busnes yr ydych yn eu datblygu a bod y cyngor hwnnw’n cael ei weld yn gymorth o safon i fusnesau, yn enwedig wrth inni nesáu at ddiwedd dirwasgiad cas? Dyma’r adeg pan fydd llawer o gwmnïau ar eu mwyaf bregus. Maent wedi gwrthsefyll y storm wreiddiol ond yn awr, a’r diwedd bellach o fewn golwg, dyma pryd mae angen cymorth effeithiol arnynt fwyaf.

The First Minister: It is sad news that the current estimates of GDP—and there may be further revisions, of course—are considerably lower for the first quarter of this year compared with the previous estimate. Final figures will not come out for a couple of months yet. There was also a revision of when we went into recession last year, which has taken it back a further quarter. You are right to say that it is the biggest single-quarter drop since 1958—and I can remember that one, given my age. That was the post-Suez crisis drop in economic output.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n newyddion trist bod yr amcangyfrifon presennol ar gyfer y GDP—a efallai y caiff ei ddiwygio eto, wrth gwrs—yn is o lawer ar gyfer chwarter cyntaf eleni o’u cymharu â’r amcangyfrif blaenorol. Ni chyhoeddir y ffigurau terfynol am ychydig o fisoedd eto. Hefyd diwygiwyd y dyddiad ar gyfer dechrau’r dirwasgiad y llynedd, gan symud y dyddiad yn ôl chwarter arall. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle’n dweud mai dyma’r gostyngiad mwyaf mewn un chwarter er 1958—ac, oherwydd fy oedran, gallaf gofio hwnnw. Gwelwyd cwymp yn yr allbwn economaidd bryd hynny oherwydd yr argyfwng ar ôl Suez.

On the health checks needed to ensure that people survive the recession, you are right to point to the fact that, quite often, firms get into the biggest difficulty when the recession is over, namely in the first uplift. They need

O ran y profion iechyd y mae eu hangen er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn goroesi’r dirwasgiad, yr ydych yn iawn i dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod cwmnïau’n aml iawn yn wynebu’r anhawster mwyaf pan ddaw’r

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the working capital to buy more steel or other materials to produce the goods for their first batch of big orders following the upturn. That is when they cannot increase their working capital, which they need, because the bank will look at what they have been doing over the past 12 or 18 months, when things have been at a low ebb and they will probably not have generated profits. They have to be able to get a loan to buy the materials to complete the order. During the upturn from the recession, we have to watch that, so that working capital is available to buy materials and hire additional staff.

dirwasgiad i ben, sef wrth i bethau godi am y tro cyntaf. Mae angen y cyfalaf gweithio arnynt i brynu mwy o ddur neu ddeunyddiau eraill i gynhyrchu’r nwyddau ar gyfer eu swp cyntaf o orchmynion mawr ar ôl i bethau ddechrau gwella. Dyna’r adeg pan na allant gynyddu eu cyfalaf gweithio, cyfalaf y mae ei angen arnynt, oherwydd bydd y banc yn edrych ar yr hyn y maent wedi ei wneud dros y 12 neu’r 18 mis diwethaf pan oedd pethau ar drai a hwythau mae’n debyg heb wneud elw. Rhaid iddynt allu cael benthyciad i brynu’r deunyddiau i gwblhau’r archeb. Wrth i bethau ddechrau gwella ar ôl y dirwasgiad, rhaid inni ochel rhag hynny, er mwyn i gyfalaf gweithio fod ar gael i brynu deunyddiau ac i gyflogi staff ychwanegol.

Chris Franks: What discussions has the Government had regarding the JEREMIE fund and the local investment scheme that will help the growth of up to 4,000 small businesses? Have there been talks with small businesses about how they can benefit from construction projects, such as the Church Village bypass? I am sure that you are aware that a firm to provide catering for construction workers was chosen following a competition organised by the business support agency, Venture Wales, and the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff.

Chris Franks: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi’u cael ynglŷn â chronfa JEREMIE a’r cynllun buddsoddi lleol a fydd yn cynorthwyo hyd at 4,000 o fusnesau bychain i dyfu? A oes trafodaethau wedi bod gyda busnesau bychain ynglŷn â sut y gallent elwa o brosiectau adeiladu, megis ffordd osgoi Pentre’r Eglwys? Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn gwybod bod cwmni i ddarparu’r arlwyo ar gyfer gweithwyr adeiladu wedi’i ddewis ar ôl cystadleuaeth a drefnwyd gan yr asiantaeth cynorthwyo busnes, Menter Cymru, ac Athrofa Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd.

The First Minister: On JEREMIE, I will seek figures from Finance Wales, our in-house merchant bank that is administering JEREMIE, to see what disbursements, investments, or whatever you want to call them have been made in the five electoral regions in Wales, to see how much South Wales Central, South Wales East, South Wales West, Mid and West Wales and North Wales have. That would be interesting. My memory of it is that, by about a month ago, it had already invested £18.5 million, but it would be interesting to see into which parts of Wales the early JEREMIE investments are going.

Y Prif Weinidog: O ran JEREMIE, gofynnaf am y ffigurau gan Cyllid Cymru, ein banc masnachol mewnol sy’n gweinyddu JEREMIE, er mwyn gweld pa daliadau, buddsoddiadau, neu beth bynnag y dymunwch eu galw, sydd wedi’u gwneud yn y pum rhanbarth etholiadol yng Nghymru, er mwyn gweld faint y mae Canol De Cymru, Dwyrain De Cymru, Gorllewin De Cymru, Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru a Gogledd Cymru’n ei gael. Byddai hynny’n ddiddorol. Os cofiaf yn iawn, erbyn tua mis yn ôl, yr oedd eisoes wedi buddsoddi £18.5 miliwn, ond byddai’n ddiddorol gweld i ba rannau o Gymru y mae buddsoddiadau cynnar JEREMIE yn mynd.

2.30 p.m.

The question of procurement opportunities on big public investment schemes that are suitable for small and medium-sized

Mae’r cwestiwn ynglŷn â chyfleoedd caffael sy’n addas i gwmnïau bach a chanolig eu maint ar gynlluniau buddsoddi cyhoeddus

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enterprises, such as providing catering services to the several hundred people who work on the Church Village bypass, is an interesting one. We need to ensure that the sub-contractors are local, even if the main contractors are neither Welsh nor British, as is usually the case these days—big road schemes are usually built by Dutch, French, Italian or German construction companies, for all sorts of reasons. We have to make sure that we get the sub-contract opportunities.

mawr, megis darparu gwasanaethau arlwyo i’r sawl cant o bobl sy’n gweithio ar ffordd osgoi Pentre’r Eglwys, yn un diddorol. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod yr is-gontractwyr yn lleol, hyd yn oed os nad yw’r prif gontractwyr yn dod o Gymru na Phrydain, fel sy’n digwydd gan amlaf y dyddiau hyn—fel arfer, caiff cynlluniau ffordd mawr eu codi gan gwmnïau adeiladu o’r Iseldiroedd, Ffrainc, yr Eidal neu’r Almaen, am bob math o resymau. Rhaid inni wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni’n cael y cyfleoedd is-gontractio.

Carbon Emissions Allyriadau Carbon

Q10 Lesley Griffiths: What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to reduce carbon emissions in Wales? OAQ(3)2119(FM)

C10 Lesley Griffiths: Beth mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i leihau allyriadau carbon yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)2119(FM)

The First Minister: Last Thursday, the Assembly Government published its ‘Climate Change Strategy—Programme of Action Consultation’. It sets out proposed actions to reduce emissions in Wales, including support for domestic energy efficiency, measures to support greening business and transport and a comprehensive approach to supporting behaviour change by all of us.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ddydd Iau diwethaf, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei ‘Strategaeth ar y Newid yn yr Hinsawdd—Ymgynghoriad ar Raglen Weithredu’. Mae’n pennu camau arfaethedig i leihau allyriadau yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys cymorth tuag at effeithlonrwydd ynni yn y cartref, mesurau i helpu busnesau a thrafnidiaeth i fod yn fwy gwyrdd a rhaglen gynhwysfawr i hybu newid ymddygiad gan bawb ohonom.

Lesley Griffiths: The Copenhagen climate change summit is rapidly approaching. The importance of that summit in December cannot be over-exaggerated. One interesting aspect of the debate, in light of President Obama’s stated commitment to reducing the USA’s carbon output, will be to find some convergence on target levels for emission cuts by industrialised nations. The European Commission is trying to steer the criteria in measuring this into more realistic benchmarks related to gross domestic product per capita, emissions per unit of GDP and emissions and population trends over a given period. Do you believe that new measurement methods such as these may have a more positive and realistic outcome for Wales, rather than the skewed and unfair calculation against which we are currently measured?

Lesley Griffiths: Mae uwchgynhadledd newid yn yr hinsawdd Copenhagen yn prysur nesáu. Ni ellir gorbwysleisio pwysigrwydd yr uwchgynhadledd honno ym mis Rhagfyr. Un agwedd ddiddorol ar y ddadl, ac ystyried ymrwymiad yr Arlywydd Obama i leihau’r carbon a gynhyrchir gan UDA, fydd llwyddo i gydgyfeirio i raddau lefelau targed y gwledydd diwydiannol o ran lleihau allyriadau. Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn ceisio llywio’r meini prawf wrth fesur hyn tuag at feincnodau mwy realistig ynghlwm wrth gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen, allyriadau fesul uned o CMC a thueddiadau allyriadau a phoblogaeth dros gyfnod penodedig. A ydych yn credu y gallai dulliau mesur newydd fel y rhain gael canlyniad mwy positif a realistig i Gymru, yn hytrach na’r cyfrifiad annheg, wedi’i ystumio, yr ydym yn cael ei fesur yn ei erbyn ar hyn o bryd?

The First Minister: I am not sure about that last point. We all know that quality of life is

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn siŵr am y pwynt olaf hwnnw. Gŵyr pawb ohonom fod

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hard to measure, but we also know that quality of life in Wales is very high, which is why relatively few people want to leave and why a lot of people want to arrive in Wales. However, I do not know how on earth you would measure it.

ansawdd bywyd yn anodd i’w fesur, ond gwyddom hefyd fod ansawdd bywyd yng Nghymru yn uchel iawn, a dyna pam mae cymharol ychydig o bobl sydd am adael a pham y mae llawer o bobl am gyrraedd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, ni wn sut ar y ddaear y byddech yn ei fesur.

The points that you make about the Copenhagen summit are very important. I had the opportunity to have a brief discussion in the House of Representatives in Washington DC last Thursday—the day before the vote to get the energy Bill through the House of Representatives. The Bill then goes to the Senate and, if successful, would mean that President Obama had a mandate to go to the Copenhagen summit with the ability to persuade all the other countries that the USA is now fully engaged, in a way that it has not been for the past eight years. That will allow for the much better prospect of getting Brazil, South Africa, Australia, China and India—some of the countries that have, so far, not taken the views of the northern hemisphere seriously—to take those views seriously.

Mae’r pwyntiau yr ydych yn eu gwneud am uwchgynhadledd Copenhagen yn bwysig iawn. Cefais y cyfle i gael trafodaeth fer yng Nhŷ’r Cynrychiolwyr yn Washington DC ddydd Iau diwethaf—y diwrnod cyn y bleidlais i gael y Mesur ynni drwy Dŷ’r Cynrychiolwyr. Wedyn mae’r Mesur yn mynd i’r Senedd ac, os bydd yn llwyddiannus, byddai’n golygu bod gan yr Arlywydd Obama fandad i fynd i uwchgynhadledd Copenhagen gyda’r gallu i berswadio’r gwledydd eraill i gyd fod UDA yn llwyr ymroi bellach, mewn ffordd nag ydyw wedi gwneud dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf. Bydd hynny’n golygu bod llawer gwell gobaith o gael Brasil, De Affrica, Awstralia, Tsieina ac India—rhai o’r gwledydd nad ydynt, hyd yma, wedi cymryd barn hemisffer y gogledd o ddifrif—i gymryd y farn honno o ddifrif.

Angela Burns: First Minister, one of the easiest ways to start to reduce our carbon emissions would be to encourage householders to take lots of small steps. Getting rid of the stand-by button on electrical goods is key. There are devices available that can help people to do that, because, quite often, equipment is plugged in in inaccessible places, people forget, or they are concerned that, if they turn off the computer, they will not know how to turn it on again. There are great and inexpensive devices available but uptake is very poor. I have done research on behalf of the Conservative group and have come up with an idea of a tailor-made promotion that would enable the Government to help people to get those products into their homes, by using the marketing nous of companies such as B&Q. To whom in your Government should I address this? The people to whom I have spoken so far have been disinterested, when I would have thought that, on this important issue, all ideas would be welcome. I would understand if it is not acceptable or appropriate to take it forward, but something

Angela Burns: Brif Weinidog, un o’r ffyrdd hawsaf o ddechrau lleihau ein hallyriadau carbon fyddai annog deiliaid tai i gymryd llawer o gamau bach. Mae cael gwared â’r botwm modd gorffwys ar nwyddau trydanol yn allweddol. Mae dyfeisiau ar gael sy’n gallu helpu pobl i wneud hynny, oherwydd, yn aml, mae cyfarpar yn cael ei blygio i mewn mewn mannau anodd eu cyrraedd, mae pobl yn anghofio, neu maent yn poeni, os bydd iddynt ddiffodd y cyfrifiadur, na fyddant yn gwybod sut i’w ailgychwyn. Mae dyfeisiau rhagorol, rhad, ar gael ond prin yw’r bobl sy’n manteisio arnynt. Yr wyf wedi gwneud ymchwil ar ran y grŵp Ceidwadol ac wedi meddwl am syniad am gynllun hyrwyddo pwrpasol a fyddai’n galluogi’r Llywodraeth i helpu pobl i gael y cynhyrchion hynny i’w cartrefi, drwy ddefnyddio crebwyll marchnata cwmnïau fel B&Q. At bwy yn eich Llywodraeth y dylwn gyfeirio hyn? Nid yw’r bobl yr wyf wedi siarad â hwy hyd yma wedi dangos diddordeb, er y byddwn wedi meddwl, ar y mater pwysig hwn, y câi unrhyw syniad ei groesawu. Byddwn yn deall os nad yw’n

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that could make such a difference to climate change in Wales should at least be considered, even if it comes from the Opposition benches.

dderbyniol neu’n briodol ei symud ymlaen, ond dylai rhywbeth a allai wneud cymaint o wahaniaeth i newid yn yr hinsawdd yng Nghymru gael ei ystyried o leiaf, hyd yn oed os yw’n dod o feinciau’r Wrthblaid.

The First Minister: Yes, absolutely. There is no ‘not invented here’ problem; a good idea will be given serious consideration. I can assure you of that, Angela. You can write either to me or to Jane Davidson—it will not make any difference to how seriously we will consider it.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn union. Nid oes problem ‘nas dyfeisiwyd yma’; byddwn yn rhoi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i syniad da. Gallaf eich sicrhau o hynny, Angela. Gallwch ysgrifennu un ai ataf fi neu Jane Davidson—ni fydd yn gwneud unrhyw wahaniaeth i ba mor ddifrifol y byddwn yn ei ystyried.

You are right to make a point about appliances and the dreaded stand-by button—one of the worst inventions ever, except, of course, to people with disabilities who cannot necessarily get out of the chair easily to change channels. Otherwise, the stand-by button is a curse and should have been strangled at birth. Unfortunately, it was not; it is with us and now it is hard to get rid of it. There is an enormous problem with the over-filling of electric kettles. Why can they not make kettles that are much easier to program for one or two cups, or one or two mugs, or however it needs to be, rather than people filling it to three-quarters full regardless of how much water they will use? The key issue, in terms of us as individuals, is that behavioural change, as I mentioned earlier, and it is an incredibly important part of the drive to reduce carbon emissions.

Yr ydych yn iawn i wneud pwynt am gyfarpar a’r botwm modd gorffwys ofnadwy—un o’r dyfeisiau gwaethaf erioed, ac eithrio, wrth gwrs, i bobl ag anableddau nad ydynt o reidrwydd yn gallu codi o’r gadair yn hawdd i newid sianelau. Fel arall, mae’r botwm modd gorffwys yn felltith a dylai fod wedi cael ei dagu ar ei enedigaeth. Yn anffodus, ni wnaethpwyd hynny; mae yma a bellach mae’n anodd cael gwared arno. Mae problem enfawr gyda gorlenwi tegelli trydan. Pam na allant wneud tegelli sy’n llawer haws eu rhaglennu ar gyfer un neu ddau gwpan, neu un neu ddau fwg, neu beth bynnag sy’n ofynnol, yn hytrach na bod pobl yn eu tri chwarter lenwi ni waeth faint o ddŵr y byddant yn ei ddefnyddio? Y mater allweddol, o’n rhan ni fel unigolion, yw’r newid ymddygiad hwnnw, fel y soniais yn gynharach, ac mae’n rhan anhygoel o bwysig o’r ymgyrch i leihau allyriadau carbon.

Gareth Jones: Cwestiwn ar syniadaeth yw hwn hefyd. Gwyddoch, mae’n siŵr, bod cwmni Calor Gas wedi cyhoeddi yn y Senedd yr wythnos diwethaf ei gefnogaeth lwyraf i fesurau datrys newid yn yr hinsawdd, ac y bydd yn buddsoddi yn nhechnoleg newydd y boeler cell cenhedlaeth nesaf. Byddai’r boeler hwnnw yn arwain at ostyngaid o tua 50 y cant yn yr allyriadau carbon o dŷ gwledig cyffredin. A fyddai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn fodlon ystyried dadleuon Calor Gas a ddywedodd y gall gystadlu â biomas fel cyfrwng amgen a hyfyw i leihau allyriadau carbon, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig lle’r adeiledir llai o dai, a lle bo’r isadeiledd yno eisoes?

Gareth Jones: This is also a question about a concept. You will know, I am sure, that Calor Gas announced in the Senedd last week its full support for measures to deal with climate change, and that it will invest in new future generation cell boiler technology. A boiler of that kind would lead to a reduction of about 50 per cent in carbon emissions from the average rural home. Would the Welsh Assembly Government be prepared to consider the arguments made by Calor Gas that it could compete with biomass as an alterative and viable solution to reduce carbon emissions, especially in rural areas where fewer houses are built and where the infrastructure already exists?

Y Prif Weinidog: Gan fy mod i draw yn yr Unol Daleithiau yr wythnos diwethaf, mae

The First Minister: As I was in the United States last week, I am afraid that I have not

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arnaf ofn nad wyf wedi cadw i fyny â’r datblygiadau diweddaraf o ran Calor Gas yn gwneud datganiad yn y Senedd i ddangos y boeler cell newydd hwn. Pe gallech roi’r manylion imi, mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr mewn sut i wneud mwy o ddefnydd o’r dechnoleg ddiweddaraf i greu’r un gwres neu’r un effeithlonrwydd gyda llawer llai o danwydd.

been able to keep up with the latest developments in terms of what Calor Gas announced in the Senedd on the new cell boiler. If you could provide me with the details, I have a great interest in how to make greater use of the latest technology to produce the same heat or efficiency with less fuel.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i’r Prif Weinidog am ei atebion.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the First Minister for answering the questions.

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad BusnesBusiness Statement and Announcement

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I have two changes to report to this week’s planned Government business. This afternoon, the Deputy Minister for Social Services will make a legislative statement on the Proposed Social Care Charges (Wales) Measure, which was circulated electronically to Members yesterday afternoon. Tomorrow, the Minister for Health and Social Services will make an updating statement on swine influenza. Business for the next three weeks is as set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found in the agenda papers that are available to Members electronically.

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Mae gennyf ddau newid i’w hadrodd i fusnes y Llywodraeth fel y’i cynlluniwyd ar gyfer yr wythnos hon. Y prynhawn yma, bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gwneud datganiad deddfwriaethol am y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Codi Ffioedd am Wasanaethau Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymru), a gylchredwyd yn electronig i’r Aelodau brynhawn ddoe. Yfory, bydd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn rhoi datganiad diweddaru am ffliw moch. Mae’r busnes am y tair wythnos nesaf fel y’i nodwyd yn y datganiad a’r cyhoeddiad busnes, sydd i’w gweld yn y papurau agenda sydd ar gael yn electronig i’r Aelodau.

Nick Bourne: I thank the Leader of the House for the business statement. Could a member of the Government—although I am not sure which member it would be—make a written statement on the interaction between tourism and local government? Non-statutory services, such as tourist information centres and public conveniences, are being closed down across Wales, which is having a massive impact on tourism. There is a serious issue in Tywyn, in Gwynedd, which I visited this weekend, that is deterring tourists, as is also the case in Builth Wells, with the closure of the tourist information centre and so forth. Could the Government come forward with something on that, indicating the importance of those facilities for members of the public coming in to use tourist facilities that are excellent in every other respect?

Nick Bourne: Diolchaf i Arweinydd y Tŷ am y datganiad busnes. A allai aelod o’r Llywodraeth—er nad wyf yn siŵr pa aelod a fyddai—wneud datganiad ysgrifenedig am y rhyngweithio rhwng twristiaeth a llywodraeth leol? Mae gwasanaethau anstatudol, megis canolfannau croeso a chyfleusterau cyhoeddus, yn cael eu cau ar draws Cymru, sy’n cael effaith enfawr ar dwristiaeth. Mae mater difrifol yn Nhywyn, yng Ngwynedd, yr ymwelais ag ef y penwythnos hwn, sy’n peri i dwristiaid gadw draw, fel sy’n wir hefyd am Lanfair-ym-Muallt, yn sgil cau’r ganolfan croeso ac ati. A allai’r Llywodraeth ddod â rhywbeth gerbron ar hynny, gan nodi pwysigrwydd y cyfleusterau hynny i aelodau’r cyhoedd sy’n dod yno i ddefnyddio cyfleusterau twristiaeth sy’n rhagorol ym mhob ffordd arall?

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Carwyn Jones: It is important, where tourists seek to come to Wales, that there are facilities for them, no matter how basic those facilities might be. Nevertheless, it is the responsibility of local government to ensure that those facilities are made available. It is in the interests of local government to ensure that the facilities in place are such that people want to visit the area.

Carwyn Jones: Mae’n bwysig, lle mae twristiaid am ddod i Gymru, bod yno gyfleusterau ar eu cyfer, ni waeth pa mor elfennol yw’r cyfleusterau hynny. Serch hynny, cyfrifoldeb llywodraeth leol yw sicrhau bod y cyfleusterau hynny yn cael eu darparu. Mae sicrhau bod y cyfryw gyfleusterau’n bodoli er budd llywodraeth leol, fel bod pobl am ymweld â’r ardal.

Alun Davies: Leader of the House, I asked two weeks ago whether the Government would be prepared to bring forward a debate on the ‘Digital Britain’ strategy, which was announced by the UK Government. I see, from the business statement, which now extends through to September, that no such debate or statement is programmed. I think that many of us across the Chamber will be quite disappointed about that. We know that a number of select committees in Westminster are now taking forward inquiries on this, and we have heard announcements in the Chamber from Assembly Government Ministers saying that they are taking forward initiatives within the ‘Digital Britain’ policy framework. We also know that a number of different decisions have been taken in terms of public service broadcasting in Wales, which will have a profound and far-reaching effect on us here and throughout the country. We need, deserve and must have a debate on the ‘Digital Britain’ strategy without any further delay. I think that there is widespread desire throughout the Chamber for such a debate, and an understanding of the approach that the Government will take. I therefore ask again for a Government debate and statement on ‘Digital Britain’, on everything covered by that policy statement.

Alun Davies: Arweinydd y Tŷ, gofynnais bythefnos yn ôl a fyddai’r Llywodraeth yn barod i ddod â dadl gerbron ar strategaeth ‘Prydain Ddigidol’, a gyhoeddwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU. Gwelaf, o’r datganiad busnes, sydd bellach yn ymestyn ymlaen i fis Medi, nad oes dadl o’r fath ar y rhestr. Credaf y bydd llawer ohonom ar draws y Siambr yn bur siomedig ynglŷn â hynny. Gwyddom fod nifer o bwyllgorau dethol yn San Steffan yn symud ymholiadau ymlaen ymhellach am hyn, ac yr ydym wedi clywed cyhoeddiadau yn y Siambr gan Weinidogion Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn dweud eu bod yn symud cynlluniau ymlaen o fewn fframwaith polisi ‘Prydain Ddigidol’. Gwyddom hefyd fod nifer o benderfyniadau gwahanol wedi cael eu gwneud o ran darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, a gaiff effaith ddirfawr a phellgyrhaeddol arnom yma a ledled y wlad. Mae arnom angen, yr ydym yn haeddu a rhaid inni gael dadl ar strategaeth ‘Prydain Ddigidol’ heb unrhyw oedi pellach. Credaf fod awydd cyffredin ledled y Siambr am ddadl o’r fath, a dealltwriaeth o’r ffordd y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ymdrin â hyn. Gofynnaf eto felly am ddadl a datganiad gan y Llywodraeth am ‘Brydain Ddigidol’, ar bopeth y mae’r datganiad polisi hwnnw yn ei gwmpasu.

The second issue that I would like to address is that of an issue raised during questions to the First Minister about the roads strategy. The Finance Committee has been concluding an inquiry on the Assembly Government’s roads policy and has uncovered many inconsistencies in Government decision making in this field.

Yr ail fater yr hoffwn roi sylw iddo yw mater a godwyd yn ystod cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog ynghylch y strategaeth ffyrdd. Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyllid wedi bod yn cwblhau ymchwiliad i bolisi ffyrdd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac mae wedi datgelu llawer o anghysondebau yn y ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn gwneud penderfyniadau yn y maes hwn.

2.40 p.m.

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There is extreme concern about the reprioritisation of the trunk roads strategy. There is a sense of disbelief about what has happened with the Heads of the Valleys road. There is a sense of being let down and a very real sense of crisis facing the Heads of the Valleys region because of the way that the region’s whole regeneration programme might be undermined by the decisions taken by Government on the trunk road programme. I therefore ask for a debate on that and how it relates to regeneration and economic development, and how the Government is responding to the economic downturn.

Mae pryder eithriadol ynglŷn ag ailflaenoriaethu’r strategaeth cefnffyrdd. Mae ymdeimlad o anghrediniaeth ynglŷn â’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd gyda ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Mae ymdeimlad o gael ein siomi ac ymdeimlad real iawn o argyfwng yn wynebu rhanbarth Blaenau’r Cymoedd oherwydd y ffordd y gallai holl raglen adfywio’r rhanbarth gael ei thanseilio gan y penderfyniadau a wnaethpwyd gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â’r rhaglen cefnffyrdd. Gofynnaf felly am ddadl ar hynny a’r cysylltiad rhyngddo ag adfywio a datblygu economaidd, a sut mae’r Llywodraeth yn ymateb i’r dirywiad economaidd.

Carwyn Jones: On the first issue regarding ‘Digital Britain’, you are aware of the actions that are being taken by Ministers. Plenary timetable is exceptionally tight as far as Government business is concerned, certainly up until the summer, although I accept of course that it is an important issue. In terms of the roads issue that you raised, it is the present intention to bring the national transport plan to the attention of the Assembly by way of a statement before the summer recess.

Carwyn Jones: Ar y mater cyntaf ynglŷn â ‘Phrydain Ddigidol’, yr ydych yn ymwybodol o’r camau sy’n cael eu cymryd gan Weinidogion. Mae amserlen y Cyfarfodydd Llawn yn eithriadol o dynn cyn belled ag y mae busnes y Llywodraeth dan sylw, yn sicr tan yr haf, er fy mod yn derbyn wrth gwrs ei fod yn fater pwysig. O ran y mater a godasoch ynglŷn â ffyrdd, y bwriad ar hyn o bryd yw dod â’r cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol i sylw’r Cynulliad drwy gyfrwng datganiad cyn toriad yr haf.

Michael German: Could you arrange for a statement to be made by a Minister on the closure of the forensic laboratory in Chepstow? While the decision to close the laboratory has been taken by the UK Government as a result of the agency arrangements that it is making, the impact on south-east Wales of the loss of up to 300 high-profile jobs is considerable. I am told that, for the 250 advanced scientists who work in that facility, the only alternatives in terms of work in their specialist field will be at one of their competitor companies—none of which are located anywhere near Wales. The second issue relates to the difficulty that Welsh police forces will now have in taking their evidence for forensic scrutiny to a facility that is nearby. The facilities that are proposed to be kept open are in the east of England, with the nearest to Wales being in the Oxford area or Birmingham, and in the north-east and north-west of England. That means that the speedy detection of crime is going to be difficult. Most concerning of all, I think, is the fact that we are facing the loss of some high-skilled and well-paid jobs from

Michael German: A allech drefnu i ddatganiad gael ei wneud gan Weinidog ynglŷn â chau’r labordy fforensig yng Nghas-gwent? Er bod y penderfyniad i gau’r labordy wedi cael ei wneud gan Lywodraeth y DU o ganlyniad i’r trefniadau asiantaeth y mae’n eu gwneud, mae effaith colli hyd at 300 o swyddi uchel eu proffil ar y de-ddwyrain yn sylweddol. Dywedir wrthyf mai’r unig ddewisiadau amgen i’r 250 o uwch-wyddonwyr sy’n gweithio yn y cyfleuster o ran gwaith yn eu maes arbenigol hwy fydd gwaith gydag un o’r cwmnïau sy’n cystadlu yn ei erbyn—ac nid yw’r un ohonynt wedi’i leoli’n agos i Gymru o gwbl. Mae a wnelo’r ail fater â’r anhawster a gaiff heddluoedd Cymru yn awr o ran mynd â’u tystiolaeth i gyfleusterau cyfagos i gael craffu fforensig arno. Mae’r cyfleusterau yr awgrymir eu cadw ar agor yn nwyrain Lloegr, ac mae’r rhai agosaf at Gymru yn ardal Rhydychen neu Birmingham, ac yng ngogledd-ddwyrain a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr. Mae hynny’n golygu y bydd datrys troseddau’n gyflym yn anodd. Yr hyn sy’n peri’r pryder mwyaf, tybiaf, yw’r ffaith ein bod yn colli rhai

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an economy that is already reeling from the loss of the Tesco distribution centre and the shortage of work at the Corus steelworks.

swyddi sgiliau uchel, sy’n talu’n dda, o economi sydd eisoes yn simsanu yn sgil colli canolfan ddosbarthu Tesco a’r prinder gwaith yng ngwaith dur Corus.

Carwyn Jones: The issue to which you refer, Mike, is non-devolved. Nevertheless, it is right to say that the Government would wish to see these jobs preserved. They are, as you know, jobs that require a high level of skill and they are the kinds of jobs that we wish to see in Wales, both now and in the future. The point that you make about the quality and speed of the processing of forensic evidence is one that is of concern. If there is any increase in the turnover time, from when police send evidence to be analysed to when it is returned to them, that will be to the detriment of police work in the whole of Wales. So, it is important, regardless of the final decision, that that speed is not interfered with. It is essential to ensure that the forensic services that are available to the police in Wales are not damaged in any way by any decision with regard to the future of the facility at Chepstow.

Carwyn Jones: Mae’r mater yr ydych yn cyfeirio ato, Mike, yn un nad yw wedi cael ei ddatganoli. Serch hynny, mae’n wir dweud y byddai’r Llywodraeth am weld y swyddi hyn yn cael eu cadw. Fel y gwyddoch, maent yn swyddi y mae angen lefel uchel o sgiliau ar eu cyfer a dyma’r mathau o swyddi yr ydym am eu gweld yng Nghymru, yn awr ac yn y dyfodol. Mae’r pwynt a wnewch ynglŷn ag ansawdd a chyflymder prosesu tystiolaeth fforensig yn un sy’n peri pryder. Os bydd unrhyw gynnydd yn yr amser prosesu, o’r adeg y bydd yr heddlu’n anfon tystiolaeth i gael ei dadansoddi i’r adeg y’i dychwelir iddynt, bydd hynny’n niweidiol i waith yr heddlu drwy Gymru gyfan. Felly, mae’n bwysig, ni waeth beth fydd y penderfyniad terfynol, na therfir ar y cyflymder hwnnw. Mae’n hanfodol sicrhau na wneir niwed mewn unrhyw ffordd i’r gwasanaethau fforensig sydd ar gael i’r heddlu yng Nghymru gan unrhyw benderfyniad ynglŷn â dyfodol y cyfleuster yng Nghas-gwent.

Chris Franks: Could we have a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding ambulance cover in the Rhondda? A constituent has contacted me regarding an incident that occurred at 3.30 a.m. on Saturday, when a 15-year-old boy broke his leg. The ambulance did not arrive until 7 a.m.. Could we have a statement on ambulance response times in Rhondda Cynon Taf?

Chris Franks: A gawn ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ynglŷn â’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans yn y Rhondda? Mae etholwr wedi cysylltu â mi ynglŷn â digwyddiad am 3.30 a.m. ddydd Sadwrn, pan dorrodd bachgen 15 oed ei goes. Ni chyrhaeddodd yr ambiwlans tan 7 a.m.. A gawn ddatganiad am amseroedd ymateb ambiwlansys yn Rhondda Cynon Taf?

As you will be are aware, the South East Wales Transport Alliance called for the electrification of the Valley lines and the main train line. This follows on from the announcement by Network Rail that it would hope to electrify the main line across south Wales. That scheme would be a significant boost to Wales. I know that the Minister for transport, Ieuan Wyn Jones, has been lobbying hard for the electrification of Wales’s main lines. Could you find Government time to discuss the need to ensure that we can attract this vital investment to the Welsh economy?

Fel y byddwch yn gwybod, galwodd Cynghrair Trafnidiaeth De-ddwyrain Cymru am drydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd a’r brif reilffordd. Mae hynny’n dilyn y cyhoeddiad gan Network Rail y byddai’n gobeithio trydaneiddio’r brif lein ar draws y de. Byddai’r cynllun hwnnw’n hwb sylweddol i Gymru. Gwn fod y Gweinidog dros Drafnidiaeth, Ieuan Wyn Jones, wedi bod yn lobïo’n galed o blaid trydaneiddio prif reilffyrdd Cymru. A allech ganfod darn o amser y Llywodraeth i drafod yr angen i sicrhau y gallwn ddenu’r buddsoddiad hanfodol hwn i economi Cymru?

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Carwyn Jones: First, the ambulance response issue is best pursued with the Minister for Health and Social Services, given that you referred to a single incident.

Carwyn Jones: Yn gyntaf, gwell trafod y mater ynghylch ymateb ambiwlansys gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, gan mai at un digwyddiad yr oeddech yn cyfeirio.

On the electrification of the Valleys lines and the main lines, no-one would argue against that. We know that no lines in Wales are electrified. We note that investment has been made in some of the major lines running from north to south in the UK, which represents investment in electric lines. It goes without saying that we would support the electrification of the Welsh train network in principle, but, nevertheless, we have to bear in mind that support in principle does not mean that money will be available to electrify the system as quickly as would be hoped.

Ynglŷn â thrydanu rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd a’r prif reilffyrdd, ni fyddai neb yn dadlau yn erbyn hynny. Gwyddom nad oes yr un lein yng Nghymru wedi’i thrydanu. Gwyddom fod buddsoddiad wedi’i wneud yn rhai o’r prif reilffyrdd rhwng gogledd a de yn y DU, sydd yn fuddsoddiad mewn rheilffyrdd trydan. Wrth reswm, byddem yn cefnogi trydanu rhwydwaith trenau Cymru mewn egwyddor, ond, serch hynny, rhaid inni gofio nad yw cefnogaeth mewn egwyddor yn golygu y bydd arian ar gael i drydanu’r system mor fuan ag y gobeithid.

Mark Isherwood: I call for an urgent Government statement on the threat to the existence of the north Wales rape and sexual abuse support centre, which reported in the media last week that it may have to close in two months’ time. When it contacted my office last week, it told me that that time limit was closer to six weeks and that the clock was ticking.

Mark Isherwood: Galwaf am ddatganiad brys gan y Llywodraeth am y bygythiad i fodolaeth canolfan gymorth trais a cham-drin rhywiol gogledd Cymru, yn sgil adroddiadau yn y cyfryngau’r wythnos diwethaf y gallai orfod cau ymhen dau fis. Pan gysylltodd â’m swyddfa’r wythnos diwethaf, dywedodd wrthyf fod y terfyn amser hwnnw’n nes at chwe wythnos a bod y cloc yn tician.

I have raised this with Ministers many times, but, each time, the response was: no funding, no support. The centre has been established for 25 years; three quarters of its work is referrals from the police and the NHS, but it gets no funding from either. It is a key partner in the north Wales sexual abuse referral centre—SARC—providing adult support and counselling services. Without it, SARC says that it would be impossible to continue to function and to provide those services. It is calling for urgent longer-term dedicated funding on a par with that provided by the Scottish Government to equivalent centres in Scotland. That is a matter for future debate. The urgency relates to the strong likelihood that it will cease to exist and to support the SARC, the police and the health service without urgent support and help from your Government.

Yr wyf wedi codi hyn â Gweinidogion droeon, ond, bob tro, yr ymateb oedd: dim cyllid, dim cefnogaeth. Mae’r ganolfan wedi’i sefydlu ers 25 mlynedd; atgyfeiriadau gan yr heddlu a’r GIG yw tri chwarter ei gwaith, ond ni chaiff arian gan y naill na’r llall. Mae’n bartner allweddol yng nghanolfan atgyfeirio cam-drin rhywiol y gogledd—SARC—gan ddarparu gwasanaethau cymorth a chwnsela i oedolion. Hebddi, dywed SARC y byddai’n amhosibl dal i weithredu a darparu’r gwasanaethau hynny. Mae’n galw am gyllid penodol dros dymor hwy yn fuan, cydradd â’r hyn a ddarperir gan Lywodraeth yr Alban i ganolfannau cyfatebol yn yr Alban. Mater i’w ddadlau yn y dyfodol yw hynny. Mae a wnelo’r brys â’r tebygolrwydd cryf y bydd yn peidio â bodoli, a chefnogi SARC, yr heddlu a’r gwasanaeth iechyd, heb gefnogaeth a chymorth brys gan eich Llywodraeth.

Carwyn Jones: You say that you have taken this matter up with Ministers. I can only

Carwyn Jones: Yr ydych wedi codi’r mater hwn â Gweinidogion, meddech chi. Ni allaf

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suggest that you take it up further with them. You have made a strong case on the floor of the Assembly. It would not be appropriate to have an urgent statement on this, but it is clearly something that you feel that you wish to take up with Ministers and I urge you to do so.

ond awgrymu eich bod yn ei godi ymhellach â hwy. Yr ydych wedi gwneud achos cryf ar lawr y Cynulliad. Ni fyddai’n briodol cael datganiad brys am hyn, ond mae’n amlwg yn rhywbeth y teimlwch eich bod yn dymuno’i godi â Gweinidogion ac fe’ch anogaf i wneud hynny.

Brynle Williams: Can time be made to discuss the collapse of Dairy Farmers of Britain? In view of what has happened, we are fortunate that at least one company has moved into north Wales and has taken over one factory. However, that is leaving a devastating trail across north and south Wales’s milk fields. There seem to be many underlying problems and it is time to bring them out into the open. Could you make time for a debate on the collapse of this industry, which will have far-reaching effects on the Welsh economy, and not only on farmers but on other aspects of the industry too?

Brynle Williams: A ellir sicrhau amser i drafod cwymp Ffermwyr Godro Prydain? Yn wyneb yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd, yr ydym yn ffodus fod o leiaf un cwmni wedi symud i mewn i’r gogledd ac wedi cymryd rheolaeth dros un ffatri. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n gadael ôl dinistriol ar draws meysydd llaeth y gogledd a’r de. Mae’n debyg fod llawer o broblemau wrth wraidd hyn ac mae’n bryd dod â hwy i’r amlwg. A allech wneud amser ar gyfer dadl ar gwymp y diwydiant hwn, a gaiff effeithiau pellgyrhaeddol ar economi Cymru, ac nid yn unig ar ffermwyr ond ar agweddau eraill ar y diwydiant hefyd?

Carwyn Jones: It is obviously of concern that we have lost part of our processing business in Wales. I know that Llandyrnog will continue, but on my patch in Bridgend, a creamery that was established for many years has been lost, which causes concern for farmers who supplied that creamery. However, we are also faced with the fact that a large town no longer has a doorstep delivery, as far as I am aware.

Carwyn Jones: Yn amlwg, mae’n achos pryder ein bod wedi colli rhan o’n busnes prosesu yng Nghymru. Gwn y gwnaiff Llandyrnog barhau, ond yn fy nhiriogaeth i ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, collwyd hufenfa a oedd wedi’i sefydlu ers blynyddoedd lawer, sy’n peri pryder i ffermwyr a gyflenwai’r hufenfa honno. Fodd bynnag, fe’n hwynebir â’r ffaith hefyd fod tref fawr bellach heb gyflenwad llaeth i’r drws, hyd y gwn i.

You are right to say that there were underlying issues with how Dairy Farmers of Britain Ltd was being run. For example, a difficulty, certainly in Bridgend, was that doorstep deliveries were so unreliable and it lost many customers as a result. That is part of the problem with how the Dairy Farmers of Britain was run as a company. Ultimately, this matter should be taken up with the Minister for Rural Affairs who will be able to provide you with more details or more information on the difficulties that Dairy Farmers of Britain have encountered.

Yr ydych yn iawn pan ddywedwch fod problemau wrth wraidd y modd y câi Ffermwyr Godro Prydain ei redeg. Er enghraifft, un anhawster, yn sicr ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, oedd bod cyflenwadau i’r stepen drws mor anwadal ac y collwyd llawer o gwsmeriaid o ganlyniad. Mae hynny’n rhan o’r broblem gyda’r ffordd y rhedid Ffermwyr Godro Prydain fel cwmni. Yn y pen draw, dylid codi’r mater hwn â’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a fydd yn gallu rhoi mwy o fanylion ichi neu fwy o wybodaeth am yr anawsterau y mae Ffermwyr Godro Prydain wedi dod ar eu traws.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Could you make time for a statement on the role of the voluntary sector in providing healthcare services in Wales? Sadly, over the weekend, Cancer Care Cymru had to wind up its operation, citing the downturn in donations because of

Andrew R.T. Davies: A allech wneud amser am ddatganiad am rôl y sector gwirfoddol yn darparu gwasanaethau gofal iechyd yng Nghymru? Yn anffodus, fwrw’r Sul, bu raid i Ofal Canser Cymru ddirwyn ei waith i ben, gan ddweud mai’r lleihad mewn rhoddion

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the recession as the reason. oherwydd y dirwasgiad oedd y rheswm.

2.50 p.m.

In the debate that we led last week on palliative care, we noted that as many as a third of the hospices have identified that the recession had hit their donations significantly. Plenary is the place to discuss what role the Welsh Assembly Government can play to assist the voluntary sector, which has a noble tradition of working alongside health professions in trying to supplement and complement health service provision where needed. I am hoping for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services so that we can understand what the Government is doing to engage with the voluntary sector to address the concerns that are being expressed in the field in all corners of Wales.

Yn y ddadl a arweiniwyd gennym yr wythnos diwethaf ar ofal lliniarol, nodasom fod cymaint â thraean o’r hosbisau wedi nodi bod y dirwasgiad wedi rhoi ergyd sylweddol i’w rhoddion. Y Cyfarfod Llawn yw’r lle i drafod pa rôl y gall Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei chwarae i gynorthwyo’r sector gwirfoddol, sydd â thraddodiad anrhydeddus o gydweithio ochr yn ochr â phroffesiynau iechyd i geisio atodi ac ategu darpariaeth y gwasanaeth iechyd lle bo angen. Yr wyf yn gobeithio am ddatganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol fel y gallwn ddeall beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i ymgysylltu â’r sector gwirfoddol i roi sylw i’r pryderon sy’n cael eu mynegi yn y maes ym mhob cwr o Gymru.

I identify with Brynle Williams’s comments about Dairy Farmers of Britain. Many farmers—some in my region—are receiving less than half the usual price for milk at the moment because they have no contract. The Welsh Assembly Government had money tied up in the Bridgend creamery site—I believe that a grant in excess of £1 million was made available to develop the site. The Leader of the House will be aware that when the cheese manufacturing operation in west Wales—Aeron Valley Cheese Ltd, I believe it was—closed, it was held liable for a significant sum from a previous grant that was given by the Welsh Assembly Government to that company. I appreciate that the circumstances were slightly different, but many Members would ask what is going to happen now that this £1 million has, in effect, been lost due to the closure of the creamery. Is there any recourse for the Government to get some of that money back or to have a stake in the plant should it be sold in future?

Yr wyf yn uniaethu â sylwadau Brynle Williams ynghylch Ffermwyr Godro Prydain. Mae llawer o ffermwyr—rhai yn fy rhanbarth i—yn cael llai na hanner y pris arferol am laeth ar hyn o bryd am nad oes contract ganddynt. Yr oedd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru arian wedi’i glymu yn safle hufenfa Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr—credaf fod grant o dros £1 filiwn wedi’i ddarparu i ddatblygu’r safle. Bydd Arweinydd y Tŷ’n ymwybodol pan gaeodd y gwaith gwneud caws yn y gorllewin—Caws Dyffryn Aeron Cyf, os cofiaf yn iawn—y’i daliwyd yn atebol am swm sylweddol o grant blaenorol a roddwyd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i’r cwmni hwnnw. Sylweddolaf fod yr amgylchiadau fymryn yn wahanol, ond byddai llawer o Aelodau am ofyn beth sydd am ddigwydd yn awr bod yr £1 filiwn yma, i bob pwrpas, wedi’i golli oherwydd cau’r hufenfa. A oes unrhyw fodd i’r Llywodraeth gael rhywfaint o’r arian hwnnw’n ôl neu i gael cyfran yn y ffatri pe câi ei gwerthu yn y dyfodol?

Carwyn Jones: That issue is being investigated at the moment. The company that you referred to in Cardiganshire is Dairygold Food Products (UK) Ltd, rather than Aeron Valley Cheese, to give it its proper name. If I remember rightly, Dairygold received some £600,000 in grant

Carwyn Jones: Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n cael sylw ar hyn o bryd. Dairygold Food Products (UK) Ltd yw’r cwmni y cyfeiriasoch ato yn sir Aberteifi, yn hytrach na Chaws Dyffryn Aeron, a rhoi iddo’i enw iawn. Os cofiaf yn iawn, cafodd Dairygold ryw £600,000 o gymhorthdal gan

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funding from the Assembly Government, and that money was clawed back. I took the decision, as the Minister at the time, that that money was going to be returned to the public purse, and the matter was pursued by Elin Jones when she became Minister for Rural Affairs. The money was recovered by the Assembly Government. It remains to be seen whether there is scope to do the same with Dairy Farmers of Britain with regard to what you rightly called a substantial grant, which was made recently, in the last two years. Consideration is being given to recouping that money.

Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a chafodd yr arian hwnnw ei gymryd yn ôl. Cymerais y penderfyniad, fel y Gweinidog ar y pryd, y câi’r arian hwnnw ei ddychwelyd i’r pwrs cyhoeddus, ac aeth Elin Jones ar ôl y mater pan ddaeth hi’n Weinidog dros Faterion Gwledig. Llwyddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i gael yr arian yn ôl. Amser a ddengys a oes lle i wneud yr un modd gyda Ffermwyr Godro Prydain ynghylch yr hyn yr oeddech yn iawn i’w alw’n grant sylweddol, a roddwyd yn ddiweddar, yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Mae ystyriaeth yn cael ei rhoi i gymryd yr arian hwnnw’n ôl.

With regard to Cancer Care Cymru, I am aware of the work that this organisation does, and I know that the Minister for Health and Social Services is too. I am aware of the fact that its employees were told the news last Thursday, and that the unions met on the Friday to discuss the issue. The concern expressed to me as a constituency Member is the speed at which all this has happened. There was no warning, apparently. The charity has announced its winding up—if I can put it that way—very rapidly indeed. It is not clear why that has happened. More information is needed to ascertain why the decision was taken so quickly; certainly far more quickly than is normally the case with charities. There may be reasons for that, but I know that the Minister is aware, firstly of the difficulty with Cancer Care Cymru, and secondly of the work that Cancer Care Cymru has done over the years.

Ynglŷn â Gofal Canser Cymru, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith a wna’r corff hwn, a gwn fod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ymwybodol hefyd. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith y rhoddwyd y newyddion i’w weithwyr ddydd Iau diwethaf, ac y cyfarfu’r undebau ar y dydd Gwener i drafod y mater. Y pryder a fynegwyd imi fel Aelod etholaeth yw mor gyflym y digwyddodd hyn i gyd. Ni chafwyd dim rhybudd, yn ôl pob tebyg. Mae’r elusen wedi cyhoeddi ei bod yn dirwyn i ben—os caf ei roi felly—yn sydyn iawn yn wir. Nid yw’n eglur pam y mae hynny wedi digwydd. Mae angen mwy o wybodaeth i ganfod pam y cymerwyd y penderfyniad mor gyflym; yn sicr, yn llawer cyflymach nag a geir fel arfer gydag elusennau. Efallai fod rhesymau dros hynny, ond gwn fod y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol, yn gyntaf o’r anhawster gyda Gofal Canser Cymru, ac yn ail o’r gwaith y mae Gofal Canser Cymru wedi’i wneud ar hyd y blynyddoedd.

Jonathan Morgan: The Leader of the House might be aware that, on Thursday, I shall be giving evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee on my proposed legislative competence Order on mental health. While I am delighted that we have managed to get this particular piece of backbench legislation so far down the line, I am rather concerned that within the four years of this Assembly term, between 2007 and 2011, it is unlikely, bearing in mind the delays in the process, that we will see any other backbench proposed legislative competence Order reaching fruition. Have you had any conversations with the new Secretary of State for Wales about the process to see whether it can be

Jonathan Morgan: Efallai fod Arweinydd y Tŷ yn ymwybodol y byddaf fi, ddydd Iau, yn rhoi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig ar fy Ngorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig ar iechyd meddwl. Er fy mod wrth fy modd ein bod wedi llwyddo i gyrraedd mor bell gyda’r darn arbennig hwn o ddeddfwriaeth mainc gefn, yr wyf yn pryderu braidd nad yw’n debygol, o fewn tymor pedair blynedd y Cynulliad hwn, rhwng 2007 a 2011, ac ystyried yr oedi yn y broses, na welwn unrhyw Orchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arall a gynigir gan y meinciau cefn yn dwyn ffrwyth. A ydych wedi cael unrhyw sgyrsiau gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd dros Gymru

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improved so that backbench Assembly Members will be afforded the same opportunity that I have?

ynglŷn â’r broses er mwyn gweld a ellir ei gwella fel y caiff Aelodau Cynulliad y meinciau cefn yr un cyfle ag a gefais i?

Carwyn Jones: Each proposed LCO is taken in its merits, of course. At a practical level, it is essential that proposed LCOs are supported by the Government because, when they are presented at Westminster, the engagement of Whitehall departments is needed because of the policy expertise that they have. It is also the case that, until now, it has been the practice that Governments negotiate with Governments, rather than backbench Members with Government in Whitehall. Whether that is something that will need to be examined in the future is a matter for the two administrations and, ultimately, for Members here and in Westminster.

Carwyn Jones: Cymerir pob gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig yn ôl ei rinweddau, wrth gwrs. Ar lefel ymarferol, mae’n hanfodol i orchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig gael cefnogaeth y Llywodraeth oherwydd, pan gânt eu cyflwyno yn San Steffan, mae angen cynnwys adrannau Whitehall oherwydd yr arbenigedd polisi sydd ganddynt. Mae’n wir hefyd mai’r arfer hyd yma fu i Lywodraethau negodi gyda Llywodraethau, yn hytrach nag aelodau mainc gefn â’r Llywodraeth yn Whitehall. Mater i’r ddwy weinyddiaeth ac, yn y pen draw, i Aelodau yma ac yn San Steffan yw a ydyw hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd angen edrych arno yn y dyfodol.

It has not been the case that backbench LCOs have been treated differently simply because they are backbench LCOs—they are considered on their merits. Consideration has to be given, as it does to all backbench legislation, to the resource implications—not just the budgetary implications for the Assembly, but also resource implications in terms of officials’ time—given that the Government has its own legislative programme to get through. However, LCOs of merit are looked at seriously, and from your point of view as you have found out, your proposed LCO is proceeding and I am confident that there will be other proposed LCOs further down the line.

Nid yw’n wir fod gorchmynion cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y meinciau cefn wedi cael eu trin yn wahanol dim ond am mai gorchmynion mainc gefn ydynt—cânt eu hystyried yn ôl eu teilyngdod. Rhaid rhoi ystyriaeth, fel gyda phob deddfwriaeth mainc gefn, i’r goblygiadau adnoddau—nid dim ond y goblygiadau cyllideb i’r Cynulliad, ond hefyd oblygiadau adnoddau o ran amser swyddogion—a chofio bod gan y Llywodraeth ei rhaglen ddeddfu ei hun i fynd drwyddi. Fodd bynnag, edrychir o ddifrif ar orchmynion sy’n teilyngu hynny, ac o’ch safbwynt chi, fel yr ydych wedi canfod, mae eich Gorchymyn arfaethedig yn mynd yn ei flaen ac yr wyf yn hyderus y ceir Gorchmynion arfaethhedig eraill yn y dyfodol.

Alun Cairns: The Assembly Parliamentary Service has taught a number of legislators many principles about openness and transparency in relation to publishing expenses, such as the figures published yesterday where a line by line breakdown of the costs and allowances was provided. What plans does the Minister responsible within the Welsh Assembly Government have to bring forward a statement about the costs relating to Ministers—particularly their travel costs and overnight accommodation—that is paid for out of the Government’s resources, rather than out of individual Assembly Members’ resources?

Alun Cairns: Mae Gwasanaeth Seneddol y Cynulliad wedi dysgu llawer o egwyddorion i nifer o ddeddfwriaethwyr ynglŷn â bod yn agored a thryloyw wrth gyhoeddi treuliau, megis y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd ddoe lle darparwyd dadansoddiad linell wrth linell o’r costau a’r lwfansau. Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog cyfrifol o fewn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gyflwyno datganiad ynglŷn â’r costau ar gyfer Gweinidogion—yn enwedig eu costau teithio ac am lety dros nos—y telir amdanynt o adnoddau’r Llywodraeth, yn hytrach nag o adnoddau Aelodau Cynulliad unigol?

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Carwyn Jones: There have been numerous freedom of information requests over time regarding Ministers’ costs, and that information is made available. All that a member of the public needs to do is to submit a request and the information is normally made available, which has been the case for a number of years.

Carwyn Jones: Mae cryn nifer o geisiadau rhyddid gwybodaeth wedi dod dros amser ynglŷn â chostau Gweinidogion, a darperir yr wybodaeth honno. Y cwbl y mae angen i aelod o’r cyhoedd ei wneud yw cyflwyno cais ac fel arfer darperir yr wybodaeth, ac mae hynny’n digwydd ers nifer o flynyddoedd.

Angela Burns: Will the Leader of the House reconsider his views on Dairy Farmers of Britain? I know that you have already answered questions from Brynle Williams and Andrew R.T. Davies about this matter, but I am concerned for two reasons. The first reason is that most farmers are small to medium-sized enterprises, and like all SMEs, they have limited exit strategies. Experiencing a collapse of this nature, especially if there is TB among their cattle, means that they will have real problems in trying to get out of the industry, move their farms on or recoup any other losses. The TB issue also worsens the problems that they will have in trying to ensure that they are looked after fairly by anyone who is brought in to look at the entire business. The second reason that I am concerned—and I will choose my words with great care because I do not wish to be ill-judged—is because a number of people have said to me that they have been very concerned about the way in which the company was run, and about the advice that the company may have received from its official advisers during the last couple of months of trading—advice that may have allowed the company to carry on trading so that farmers could carry on sending their milk. The company then went down, and the farmers did not receive their payments. There is a lot of fear, uncertainty, grey areas and innuendo about this, so will the Welsh Assembly Government look at conducting a full inquiry into this matter to ensure that people have not been hard done by? Will he then bring a statement to the Assembly levelling that out, because the strong rumours and real concerns—especially from people who have recently become stakeholders in Dairy Farmers of Britain on the basis that it was a good business and well-supported by its banks—are really hurting? Will you consider it in the light of that type of information that is circulating?

Angela Burns: A wnaiff Arweinydd y Tŷ ailystyried ei sylwadau ynglŷn â Ffermwyr Godro Prydain? Gwn eich bod eisoes wedi ateb cwestiynau gan Brynle Williams ac Andrew R.T. Davies ar y mater hwn, ond yr wyf yn bryderus am ddau reswm. Y rheswm cyntaf yw mai mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint yw’r rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr, ac fel pob busnes bach a chanolig, cyfyngedig yw eu strategaethau ymadael. Mae profi cwymp o’r natur hwn, yn enwedig os oes TB ymysg eu gwartheg, yn golygu y cânt broblemau gwirioneddol i geisio gadael y diwydiant, symud eu ffermydd ymlaen neu adennill unrhyw golledion eraill. Mae cwestiwn y TB hefyd yn gwaethygu’r problemau a gânt wrth geisio sicrhau y cânt chwarae teg gan unrhyw un a dynnir i mewn i edrych ar y busnes cyfan. Yr ail reswm yr wyf yn pryderu—a dewisaf fy ngeiriau â gofal mawr oherwydd nid oes arnaf eisiau bod yn annoeth—yw am fod nifer o bobl wedi dweud wrthyf eu bod wedi bod yn bryderus iawn am y modd y rhedid y cwmni, ac am y cyngor a gafodd y cwmni efallai gan ei gynghorwyr swyddogol yn ystod y ddau neu dri mis diwethaf o fasnachu—cyngor a allasai fod wedi caniatáu i’r cwmni ddal i fasnachu fel y câi ffermwyr ddal i anfon eu llaeth. Wedyn aeth y cwmni â’i ben iddo, ac ni chafodd y ffermwyr eu taliadau. Mae llawer o ofn, ansicrwydd, mannau annelwig ac ensyniadau ynglŷn â hyn, felly a wnaiff Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ystyried cynnal ymchwiliad llawn i’r mater hwn er mwyn sicrhau nad yw pobl wedi cael cam? A wnaiff wedyn gyhoeddi datganiad i’r Cynulliad yn crynhoi hynny, gan fod y sibrydion cryf a’r pryderon go iawn—yn enwedig gan bobl sydd wedi mynd yn randdeiliaid yn ddiweddar yn Ffermwyr Godro Prydain ar y sail ei fod yn fusnes da ac yn mwynhau cefnogaeth dda gan ei fanciau—yn peri niwed? A wnewch ei ystyried yng ngoleuni’r math hwnnw o wybodaeth sy’n mynd o gwmpas y lle?

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Carwyn Jones: I have heard the same rumours, as I indicated earlier. At this stage, it is a matter for those responsible for disposing of the company to look initially at the company’s financial situation. You seemed to indicate, although you did not say it—I know that you chose your words carefully—that you had concerns that the company may have been trading while insolvent. You did not say that, but that is a concern that some farmers may have. If that is the case, a complaint would have to be made to the necessary authorities. In this case, it would be to the appropriate Whitehall department, possibly the Office of Fair Trading, but certainly to a Whitehall department rather than an Assembly department.

Carwyn Jones: Yr wyf finnau wedi clywed yr un sibrydion, fel y dywedais gynnau. Ar hyn o bryd, mater ydyw i’r rheini sy’n gyfrifol am werthu’r cwmni i edrych i ddechrau ar sefyllfa ariannol y cwmni. Yr oeddech fel petaech yn awgrymu, er na ddywedasoch hynny—gwn ichi ddewis eich geiriau’n ofalus—fod gennych bryderon y gallai’r cwmni fod wedi bod yn masnachu tra’r oedd yn fethdalwr. Ni ddywedasoch hynny, ond mae hynny’n bryder sydd gan rai ffermwyr efallai. Os yw hynny’n wir, byddai’n rhaid gwneud cwyn i’r awdurdodau priodol. Yn yr achos hwn, yr ydym yn sôn am yr adran briodol yn Whitehall, y Swyddfa Fasnach Deg o bosibl, ond yn sicr i adran yn Whitehall yn hytrach nag un o adrannau’r Cynulliad.

3.00 p.m.

We must remember that regulation of business in terms of business law is not a devolved issue and that therefore there are bodies that can examine the situation more closely than we can. If farmers have concerns about how the business was run, I would encourage them to inform the farming unions, first of all, and, if there are further concerns, to take them to the appropriate bodies, whether that is the appropriate Whitehall department or, if there is any suggestion of any other activity—I will also phrase this carefully—to the appropriate body in that case.

Rhaid inni gofio nad yw rheoleiddio busnes yng nghyd-destun cyfraith busnes yn fater sydd wedi’i ddatganoli ac felly fod cyrff sy’n gallu edrych ar y sefyllfa’n fwy manwl nag y gallwn ni. Os yw ffermwyr yn pryderu am y modd y cafodd y busnes ei redeg, byddwn yn eu hannog i hysbysu’r undebau ffermio, yn gyntaf oll, ac, os oes pryderon pellach, i fynd â hwy at y cyrff priodol, pa un ai hwnnw yw’r adran briodol yn Whitehall ynteu, os oes awgrym o unrhyw weithgarwch arall—geiriaf hyn yn ofalus—at y corff sy’n briodol yn yr achos hwnnw.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i Arweinydd y Tŷ am ateb y cwestiynau ar fusnes.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Leader of the House for answering the questions about business.

Datganiad Deddfwriaethol: Y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Codi Ffioedd am Wasanaethau Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymru)

Legislative Statement: The Proposed Social Care Charges (Wales) Measure

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda Thomas): Mae awdurdodau lleol yn darparu amrywiaeth o wasanaethau cymdeithasol amhreswyl, gan gynnwys gofal cartref, gofal dydd, trafnidiaeth i ofal dydd a phrydau bwyd. Yn 2007-08, derbyniodd 66,000 o oedolion yng Nghymru wasanaethau cymdeithasol yn y

The Deputy Minister for Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): Local authorities provide a range of non-residential social services, including homecare, day care, transport to day care and meals. In 2007-08, 66,000 adults in Wales received community-based social services. Those who rely on these services represent the most vulnerable

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gymuned. Mae’r sawl sydd yn dibynnu ar y gwasanaethau hyn ymysg aelodau mwyaf agored i niwed ein cymdeithas a hebddynt, byddai ansawdd eu bywydau yn dlotach. Mae gan bob awdurdod bolisi o godi tâl am y gwasanaethau hyn. Fel canlyniad i amryw o fesurau diogelu, mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn eu derbyn yn rhad ac am ddim, ond, yn 2007-08, codwyd tâl ar 14,000 o ddefnyddwyr. Yn amlwg, mae angen sicrhau bod y sawl y codir tâl arnynt yn cael eu trin yn deg a chydradd lle bynnag y maent yn byw, fel bod y taliadau’n cael eu codi mewn modd gweddol o gyson ledled Cymru.

members of society, and without these services they would have a poorer quality of life. All authorities have a policy of charging for these services. Due to various safeguards the majority receive them free of charge, but, in 2007-08, 14,000 users were charged for these services. There is a clear need to ensure those charged are treated fairly and equitably wherever they live, so that charging is undertaken in a broadly consistent way across Wales.

Yesterday, I laid the Proposed Social Care Charges (Wales) Measure to do this. This was accompanied by an explanatory memorandum and a written statement. Today, I am pleased to introduce the proposed Measure for Assembly consideration and to issue a policy statement on our intentions for reform, which I will briefly outline. Progress has been made in recent years in influencing authorities’ charging policies. In 2002, we issued good practice guidance to help authorities that had decided to charge to help them to design reasonable and fair charging policies. We also introduced key elements of the guidance on a statutory basis to provide financial protection for service users on low incomes and to ensure that those charged were left with a guaranteed level of income after charging. In 2007, we extended those financial safeguards. Nevertheless, there remains wide variation: the range of services charged for, the types of users who are charged, the financial assessments undertaken and the level of charges set vary between authorities. The independent research undertaken for the purpose of developing the proposed Measure confirmed that. This unequal treatment of users has the potential to be unfair and inequitable and confirms that we were right to identify this as a matter requiring further legislation.

Ddoe, cyflwynais y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Codi Ffioedd am Wasanaethau Gofal Cymdeithasol (Cymru) i wneud hyn. Yr oedd memorandwm esboniadol a datganiad ysgrifenedig gydag ef. Heddiw, yr wyf yn falch o roi’r Mesur arfaethedig gerbron y Cynulliad i’w ystyried a chyhoeddi datganiad polisi am ein bwriadau ar gyfer diwygio, a ddisgrifiaf yn fyr. Cafwyd cynnydd yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ran dylanwadu ar bolisïau awdurdodau ar godi tâl. Yn 2002, cyhoeddasom arweiniad ar arferion da i helpu awdurdodau a oedd wedi penderfynu codi tâl i ddyfeisio polisïau teg a rhesymol ar gyfer codi tâl. Gwnaethom hefyd gyflwyno elfennau allweddol o’r arweiniad ar sail statudol er mwyn rhoi diogelwch ariannol i ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau sydd ar incwm isel a sicrhau bod gan y rheini y codwyd tâl arnynt lefel incwm warantedig ar ôl codi tâl arnynt. Yn 2007, gwnaethom ymestyn y mesurau diogelu hynny. Er hynny, mae gwahaniaethau mawr o hyd: mae’r amrediad o wasanaethau y codir tâl amdanynt, y mathau o ddefnyddwyr y codir tâl arnynt, yr asesiadau ariannol a wneir a lefel y taliadau a osodir yn amrywio rhwng awdurdodau. Cadarnhawyd hynny gan yr ymchwil annibynnol a gyflawnwyd er mwyn datblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig. Gallai’r driniaeth anghyfartal hon o ddefnyddwyr fod yn annheg ac yn anghydradd ac mae’n cadarnhau ein bod yn iawn i ddynodi hwn yn fater y mae angen deddfu pellach arno.

The proposed Measure seeks to address this variation by establishing a new legislative regime that will allow Welsh Ministers to introduce regulations and guidance to ensure greater consistency where authorities decide

Mae’r Mesur arfaethedig yn ceisio delio â’r gwahaniaethau hyn drwy sefydlu cyfundrefn ddeddfwriaethol newydd a fydd yn caniatáu i Weinidogion Cymru gyflwyno rheoliadau ac arweiniad i sicrhau mwy o gysondeb lle y

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to charge for non-residential social services. This will enable us to put in place a system that is fair to all client groups, simpler to understand, cost effective to administer and reduces the charging burden on service users. The proposed Measure will amend the existing legislation to enact a free-standing provision governing charging for these services in Wales. It will provide for more consistency, through regulations, about the types of services that may be charged for, the client groups that may be charged, the financial assessment process, the standard or maximum charge that may be made, and the way in which authorities review charges. Authorities will continue to be able to set charges as they consider reasonable.

mae awdurdodau’n penderfynu codi tâl am wasanaethau cymdeithasol amhreswyl. Bydd hyn yn ein galluogi i roi system ar waith sy’n deg â’r holl grwpiau o gleientiaid, yn haws ei deall, yn gost-effeithiol wrth ei gweinyddu ac yn ysgafnhau’r baich o daliadau ar ysgwyddau defnyddwyr gwasanaethau. Bydd y Mesur arfaethedig yn diwygio’r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol i wneud darpariaeth annibynnol sy’n llywodraethu’r broses o godi tâl am y gwasanaethau hyn yng Nghymru. Bydd yn cynnig mwy o gysondeb, drwy reoliadau, ynghylch y mathau o wasanaethau y ceir codi tâl amdanynt, y grwpiau o gleientiaid y ceir codi tâl arnynt, y broses asesu ariannol, y ffi safonol neu’r ffi uchaf y ceir ei chodi, a’r modd y mae awdurdodau’n adolygu taliadau. Bydd awdurdodau’n dal i allu gosod ffioedd y credant eu bod yn rhesymol.

However, this discretion will be subject to specific detailed limitations, which will be set out in regulations. Authorities will not be obliged to charge and will continue to be able to decide not to charge at all, or to charge less than any requirement in the legislation. The proposed Measure will place an obligation on authorities to provide information about the services for which they charge, their standard charges and means testing. Where an authority decides to impose a charge, it will be required to provide information to the user about the proposed charge, how it was calculated and how it may be reviewed. While some authorities already provide such information, this will enforce good practice and provide a clear and consistent approach to ensure that users or prospective users are fully informed.

Fodd bynnag, bydd cyfyngiadau manwl penodol ar y disgresiwn hwn, a nodir mewn rheoliadau. Ni fydd awdurdodau’n gorfod codi tâl a byddant yn dal i allu penderfynu peidio â chodi tâl o gwbl, neu godi tâl sy’n llai nag unrhyw ofyniad yn y ddeddfwriaeth. Bydd y Mesur arfaethedig yn rhwymo awdurdodau i ddarparu gwybodaeth am y gwasanaethau y maent yn codi tâl amdanynt, eu ffioedd safonol a phrofion modd. Os bydd awdurdod yn penderfynu gosod ffi, bydd yn ofynnol iddo roi gwybodaeth i’r defnyddiwr am y ffi arfaethedig, sut y cafodd ei chyfrifo a sut y gellir ei hadolygu. Er bod rhai awdurdodau eisoes yn darparu gwybodaeth o’r fath, bydd hyn yn gorfodi arferion da ac yn darparu dull clir a chyson i sicrhau bod defnyddwyr neu ddarpar ddefnyddwyr wedi eu hysbysu’n llawn.

Last year I established a group of key stakeholders to advise me on the options to feed into the development of the proposed Measure. That group had wide representation from users, providers and local government. The aspects of charging that the proposed Measure seeks to address are those that the group identified as part of the excellent work that it undertook.

Y llynedd sefydlais grŵp o randdeiliaid allweddol i’m cynghori ar yr opsiynau i’w hystyried wrth ddatblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig. Yr oedd y grŵp hwnnw’n cynnwys cynrychiolaeth eang o blith defnyddwyr, darparwyr a llywodraeth leol. Yr agweddau ar godi tâl y mae’r Mesur arfaethedig yn ceisio delio â hwy yw’r rheini a nodwyd gan y grŵp fel rhan o’r gwaith ardderchog a wnaeth.

I appreciate that there will be interest in the detail of our intentions for reform. Our intention is to pursue an incremental

Sylweddolaf y bydd diddordeb ym manylion ein bwriadau ar gyfer diwygio. Ein bwriad yw ceisio cyflwyno mwy o gysondeb yn

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approach to the introduction of greater consistency. The first important action will be to establish a new regime that will introduce more consistency. The second, assuming the proposed Measure is agreed, would be to implement from April 2011 a first steps improvement package. The package takes into account the advice that I received from the stakeholder group, and will consist of bringing forward regulations to make the statutory elements of the existing guidance mandatory, to set a maximum weekly charge of £50, to require authorities to fully disregard constant attendance allowance and severe disablement allowance in charge assessments, to prohibit authorities from charging for transport to day centres, and to require authorities to introduce a procedure for reviewing charges.

raddol. Y cam pwysig cyntaf fydd sefydlu cyfundrefn newydd a fydd yn cyflwyno mwy o gysondeb. Yr ail, gan gymryd y cytunir ar y Mesur arfaethedig, fyddai gweithredu ar becyn gwella camau cyntaf o Ebrill 2011. Mae’r pecyn yn ystyried y cyngor a gefais gan y grŵp rhanddeiliaid, a bydd yn golygu cyflwyno rheoliadau i wneud elfennau statudol yr arweiniad gorfodol presennol yn orfodol, i bennu ffi wythnosol uchaf o £50, i fynnu bod awdurdodau’n llwyr ddiystyru lwfans gweini cyson a lwfans anabledd difrifol wrth asesu taliadau, i wahardd awdurdodau rhag codi tâl am gludiant i ganolfannau dydd, ac i fynnu bod awdurdodau’n cyflwyno gweithdrefn i adolygu ffioedd.

I believe that this package and the information provisions that I referred to earlier go to the heart of tackling inconsistency by introducing an overall maximum charge for services, while at the same time targeting particular financial safeguards. Future Assembly Governments would be able to build on this.

Credaf fod y pecyn hwn a’r darpariaethau ar gyfer gwybodaeth y cyfeiriais atynt yn gynharach yn mynd at wraidd yr ymdrech i ddelio ag anghysondeb drwy gyflwyno ffi uchaf gyffredinol am wasanaethau, gan dargedu mesurau diogelu ariannol penodol yr un pryd. Byddai Llywodraethau Cynulliad y dyfodol yn gallu adeiladu ar y sylfaen hon.

Assuming that the proposed Measure is agreed, the regulations required to implement our intended package would be subject to engagement with stakeholders, consultation and a full impact assessment. That would include consideration of the associated costs and the funding arrangements. I am issuing today to Members and stakeholders a policy statement that sets out the context in which we are proposing the proposed Measure, and the package of reform that we intend to pursue.

Gan gymryd y cytunir ar y Mesur arfaethedig, byddai’r rheoliadau sy’n ofynnol i weithredu ar ein pecyn arfaethedig yn destun ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid, ymgynghori ac asesiad llawn o’r effaith. Byddai hynny’n cynnwys ystyried y costau cysylltiedig a’r trefniadau ariannu. Yr wyf yn rhoi datganiad polisi heddiw i Aelodau a rhanddeiliaid sy’n egluro’r cyd-destun lle’r ydym yn cynnig y Mesur arfaethedig, a’r pecyn diwygio y bwriadwn ei roi ar waith.

We must not lose sight of those service users who are charged for these services, who represent some of the most vulnerable members of society. The proposed Measure will improve the charging process, helping to support their ability to live independently in the community to improve their quality of life.

Rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio am y defnyddwyr gwasanaethau hynny y codir tâl arnynt am y gwasanaethau hyn, sydd ymhlith yr aelodau o gymdeithas sy’n fwyaf agored i niwed. Bydd y Mesur arfaethedig yn gwella’r broses codi tâl, gan helpu i hyrwyddo eu gallu i fyw’n annibynnol yn y gymuned er mwyn gwella eu hansawdd byw.

I commend the proposed Measure to you and look forward to the constructive contribution that the Assembly’s scrutiny process will make as we explore these key issues.

Cymeradwyaf y Mesur arfaethedig ichi ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld y cyfraniad cadarnhaol a geir drwy broses craffu’r Cynulliad wrth inni ymchwilio i’r materion

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allweddol hyn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement. As you rightly pointed out, we are looking at the most vulnerable in society here and seeking to bring about improvements in service through this proposed Measure, above all, in relation to cost. We, as an institution, and councils, will have to spend a great deal of time, resource and energy on the provision of care by social services and in the community to ensure that people have quality of life and have services that address their needs so that they can lead as full and active a life as possible. In reading the notes, particularly those of the task and finish group that you put together to look into this issue, we can see the wide variation in the costs that many people currently have to bear. For example, charges for homecare vary from £6.20 in Rhondda Cynon Taf to £200 in Neath Port Talbot. That is a massive burden in relation to people’s personal expenditure when you think that many of the people whom we are talking about are of pensionable age and are on limited incomes. Therefore, while we agree with the sentiment behind this, there will be much scrutiny of this proposed Measure to ensure that there is consistency and that it will be followed by the provision of resource on the ground.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch i chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog, am eich datganiad. Fel y dywedasoch, yr ydym yn ystyried y rhai sy’n fwyaf agored i niwed mewn cymdeithas drwy hyn ac yn ceisio gwella gwasanaethau drwy’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn, yn anad dim, mewn cysylltiad â chost. Byddwn ni, fel sefydliad, a chynghorau, yn gorfod rhoi llawer iawn o amser, adnoddau ac egni at ystyried y ddarpariaeth o ofal gan wasanaethau cymdeithasol ac yn y gymuned i sicrhau bod gan bobl ansawdd bywyd a gwasanaethau sy’n diwallu eu hanghenion fel y gallant fyw bywyd sydd mor llawn ac egnïol ag sy’n bosibl. Wrth ddarllen y nodiadau, yn enwedig y rheini gan y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen a gynullasoch i ymchwilio i’r mater hwn, gallwn weld y gwahaniaethau mawr yn y costau y mae llawer o bobl yn gorfod eu dwyn ar hyn o bryd. Er enghraifft, mae ffioedd am ofal cartref yn amrywio o £6.20 yn Rhondda Cynon Taf i £200 yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot. Mae hwnnw’n faich anferth mewn cysylltiad â gwariant personol a chofio bod llawer o’r bobl yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt o oedran pensiwn ac yn byw ar incwm cyfyngedig. Felly, er ein bod yn cydymdeimlo â’r hyn sy’n sail i’r mater hwn, bydd llawer o graffu ar y Mesur arfaethedig hwn i sicrhau bod cysondeb ac y darperir adnoddau wedyn ar ei gyfer yn lleol.

3.10 p.m.

At the end of your statement, you talked about the resource issue. I have sat in on discussions of several proposed Measures in committee and an issue that comes up time and again is the amount of resource passed on to the third party, invariably a council, charged with delivering the provisions of the Measure. I would be grateful if, in responding to my points this afternoon, you could give some indication as to the likely cost of the implementation of this proposed Measure and what level of support the Assembly Government has ring-fenced to ensure that the aims of the proposed Measure can be delivered on the ground so that, in 18 months’ or two years’ time, Members will not be told by the local council that, ‘It came down from the Assembly but was a completely unfunded programme’.

Ar ddiwedd eich datganiad, soniasoch am fater adnoddau. Yr wyf wedi bod yn bresennol mewn trafodaethau ar nifer o Fesurau arfaethedig mewn pwyllgorau ac un mater sy’n codi dro ar ôl tro yw maint yr adnoddau a drosglwyddir i’r trydydd parti, sef cyngor yn ddieithriad, yr ymddiriedwyd iddo’r gwaith o gyflawni darpariaethau’r Mesur. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar petaech, wrth ymateb i’r pwyntiau a wneuthum y prynhawn yma, yn gallu rhoi rhyw awgrym o’r gost debygol o weithredu’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn ac o lefel y cymorth y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ei neilltuo i sicrhau y gellir cyflawni nodau’r Mesur arfaethedig yn lleol fel na fydd y cyngor lleol yn dweud wrth Aelodau, ymhen 18 mis neu ddwy flynedd, iddi ‘ddod i lawr o’r Cynulliad ond ei bod yn rhaglen nad oedd cyllid ar ei chyfer o gwbl’.

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The proposed Measure refers time and again to regulations. I was a member of the Subordinate Legislation Committee when the NHS Redress (Wales) Measure was going through. Time and again, it was said that the proposed Measure needed to be far more specific instead of leaving matters to be decided in future regulations. The Minister gave us assurances that, as Minister, she would not do x or y, but, in Government, as in all walks of life, people move on. People want certainty and to see the substance of the proposed Measure on the face of the proposed Measure rather than having to rely on future regulations that could transfer power, resulting in our losing the sense of ownership of that particular initiative or objective.

Mae’r Mesur arfaethedig yn cyfeirio dro ar ôl tro at reoliadau. Yr oeddwn yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth pan oedd Mesur Gwneud Iawn am Gamweddau’r GIG (Cymru) yn mynd drwodd. Dro ar ôl tro, dywedwyd bod angen i’r Mesur arfaethedig fod yn llawer mwy penodol yn lle gadael materion i’w penderfynu mewn rheoliadau yn y dyfodol. Rhoddodd y Gweinidog sicrwydd inni na fyddai hi, fel Gweinidog, yn gwneud hyn neu’r llall, ond, mewn Llywodraeth, fel ym mhob rhan o fywyd, mae pobl yn symud ymlaen. Mae pobl am gael sicrwydd ac am weld sylwedd y Mesur arfaethedig yn y Mesur arfaethedig ei hun yn hytrach na gorfod dibynnu ar reoliadau yn y dyfodol a allai drosglwyddo pŵer, fel y collem yr ymdeimlad o berchnogaeth ar y fenter neu amcan sydd dan sylw.

You also highlighted in your statement that the proposed Measure would place an obligation on authorities to provide information on services. We greatly welcome that, because, for many people, especially as they advance in years, seeking the help of the local authority or the agency charged with providing that help, can be a minefield. We also strive for clarity of information, but, sadly, it is very often found wanting. You highlighted current good practice that you would hope to roll out nationally. Could you in your reply identify the good practice that you mentioned on the supply of information and engagement with the client/patient or the recipient of the care? We need to understand what sort of model you are talking about.

Dywedasoch hefyd yn eich datganiad y byddai’r Mesur arfaethedig yn gorfodi awdurdodau i ddarparu gwybodaeth am wasanaethau. Yr ydym yn croesawu hynny’n fawr, oherwydd, yn achos llawer o bobl, yn enwedig wrth iddynt fynd yn hŷn, mae ceisio cymorth gan yr awdurdod lleol neu’r asiantaeth sy’n gyfrifol am ddarparu cymorth o’r fath, yn gallu bod yn ddyrys. Byddwn hefyd yn ceisio cael gwybodaeth sy’n eglur, ond, gwaetha’r modd, ceir ei bod yn ddiffygiol yn aml iawn. Cyfeiriasoch at arferion da presennol y gobeithiech eu rhoi ar waith yn genedlaethol. A allech sôn yn eich ateb am yr arferion da a grybwyllasoch ynghylch cyflenwi gwybodaeth ac ymgysylltu â’r cleient neu glaf neu’r un sy’n derbyn y gofal? Mae angen inni ddeall pa fath o fodel sydd gennych dan sylw.

You also mentioned that councils would be able to raise modest charges subject to ‘specific detailed limitations’. What are the fields of work in which you believe that modest charges would be particularly pertinent in relation to this proposed Measure? I would be grateful if you could give us an understanding of that.

Dywedasoch hefyd y byddai cynghorau’n gallu codi taliadau bach o dan ‘gyfyngiadau manwl penodol’. Ym mha feysydd gwaith yr ydych yn credu y byddai taliadau bach yn neilltuol o berthnasol mewn cysylltiad â’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn? Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech egluro hynny inni.

I look forward to this progressing to the legislation committee and to the opportunity for us to scrutinise this proposed Measure further. However, above all, I look for answers to the questions that I have posed

Edrychaf ymlaen at weld hwn yn mynd ymlaen i’r pwyllgor deddfau ac at y cyfle a gawn i graffu ymhellach ar y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Fodd bynnag, yn anad dim, ceisiaf atebion i’r cwestiynau yr wyf wedi eu

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this afternoon. codi y prynhawn yma.

The Deputy Minister for Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): Thank you, Andrew, for those comments. I welcome your introductory remarks. I am sure that there is no difference of opinion between us with regard to the vulnerability of the people receiving these services and the variation across Wales. Indeed, that is obviously the reason why we saw the need to introduce this proposed Measure.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda Thomas): Diolch i chi, Andrew, am y sylwadau hynny. Croesawaf eich sylwadau agoriadol. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad oes gwahaniaeth barn rhyngom ynghylch y ffaith bod y bobl sy’n cael y gwasanaethau hyn yn agored i niwed a bod gwahaniaethau ledled Cymru. Yn wir, mae’n amlwg mai hwnnw oedd y rheswm inni weld yr angen i roi’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn gerbron.

You asked who will benefit. The biggest group that will benefit are those aged over 60 with complex needs. However, it will not be confined to that group of service users.

Holasoch pwy a gaiff fudd ohono. Y grŵp mwyaf a gaiff fudd yw’r rheini dros 60 oed sydd ag anghenion cymhleth. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd yn gyfyngedig i’r grŵp hwnnw o ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau.

With regard to reimbursements and the cost, the best estimate of the cost of introducing the £50 per week charge is £6 million per annum, the cost of transport to day care is £1.5 million, and other costs could take the overall cost to about £11 million. You talk about the Measures, and I assure you—and I have said that I will be issuing a policy statement—that all the matters that arise from this are listed in section 7 of the proposed Measure for everyone to see.

Ynghylch ad-dalu a’r gost, yr amcangyfrif gorau o’r gost o gyflwyno’r ffi o £50 yr wythnos yw £6 miliwn y flwyddyn, cost y cludiant ar gyfer gofal dydd yw £1.5 miliwn, a gallai costau eraill fynd â’r cyfanswm i tua £11 miliwn. Soniasoch am y Mesurau, ac yr wyf yn eich sicrhau—ac yr wyf wedi dweud y byddaf yn cyhoeddi datganiad polisi—fod yr holl faterion sy’n codi o hyn wedi eu rhestru yn adran 7 o’r Mesur arfaethedig i bawb gael eu gweld.

On information, if the proposed Measure is agreed to, we hope to introduce provisions on the availability of free information. There are good examples of information being made available across Wales, some of which is issued by the voluntary sector in partnership. However, the availability of clear information is patchy and not as readily available as you or I would wish.

Ynghylch gwybodaeth, os cytunir ar y Mesur arfaethedig, gobeithiwn gyflwyno darpariaethau ar y gallu i gael gwybodaeth am ddim. Mae enghreifftiau da o ddarparu gwybodaeth ledled Cymru, y cyhoeddwyd rhywfaint ohoni gan y sector gwirfoddol drwy bartneriaeth. Fodd bynnag, nid yw gwybodaeth glir ar gael yn gyson ac nid yw mor hawdd ei chael ag y byddech chi a minnau’n dymuno.

You asked why we think this information is needed. That was also brought up and became a clear issue during the work of the task group. As you know, its membership was widely drawn to include service users. LE Wales consultancy has produced excellent documents on the variations in service availability, and I believe that that is the only research of its kind available throughout the UK. I know that you will want to take the opportunity to look in detail at that research produced by LE Wales.

Gofynasoch pam yr ydym yn credu bod angen yr wybodaeth hon. Codwyd hynny hefyd a daeth yn destun dadlau amlwg yn ystod gwaith y grŵp gorchwyl. Fel y gwyddoch, yr oedd cwmpas ei aelodaeth yn eang er mwyn cynnwys defnyddwyr gwasanaethau. Mae ymgynghoriaeth LE Wales wedi llunio dogfennau rhagorol am y gwahaniaethau yn y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael, a chredaf mai hwnnw yw’r unig waith ymchwil o’i fath sydd ar gael ledled y DU. Gwn y byddwch am achub ar y cyfle i edrych

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yn fanwl ar y gwaith ymchwil hwnnw a gynhyrchwyd gan LE Wales.

On the ability to charge modest charges, I want to make it absolutely clear that this proposed Measure will in no way affect the discretion of local authorities: they can choose whether or not to charge as well as the level of charge. However, they will have to charge within the parameters of the proposed Measure, if it is agreed to. They will retain an element of local discretion and may charge less than the overall £50, but, if several services are provided for a service user, the intention is that the overall cost of those services to the service user may not exceed £50 a week.

Ynghylch y gallu i godi taliadau bach, yr wyf am ei gwneud yn berffaith glir na fydd y Mesur arfaethedig hwn yn effeithio mewn unrhyw fodd ar ddisgresiwn awdurdodau lleol: gallant ddewis a fyddant yn codi tâl ai peidio yn ogystal â dewis lefel y ffi. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid iddynt godi tâl o fewn paramedrau’r Mesur arfaethedig, os cytunir arno. Byddant yn cadw rhywfaint o ddisgresiwn lleol a chânt godi llai na’r ffi gyffredinol o £50, ond, os darperir nifer o wasanaethau i ddefnyddiwr gwasanaethau, y bwriad yw na chaiff cyfanswm y gost am y gwasanaethau hynny i’r defnyddiwr gwasanaethau fod yn fwy na £50 yr wythnos.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn croesawu’n gynnes y datganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog a’r ffaith bod y Mesur arfaethedig wedi’i gyflwyno. Dyma wireddu un o addewidion pwysicaf ‘Cymru’n Un’, ac yr wyf yn hynod ddiolchgar i’r Dirprwy Weinidog a’i swyddogion am yr holl waith a wnaed yn y maes hwn.

Helen Mary Jones: I warmly welcome the Deputy Minister’s statement and the fact that the proposed Measure has been introduced. This fulfils one of the main pledges of ‘One Wales’, and I am extremely grateful to the Deputy Minister and her officials for all the work that has been undertaken in this field.

Fel plaid, yr ydym yn credu y dylid darparu gofal am ddim mewn egwyddor, fel yr argymhellodd y comisiwn brenhinol yn ôl ym 1999. Mae’n nonsens ein bod yn gorfod trafod a yw’r baddon y mae ar Mrs Jones ei angen yn un cymdeithasol efallai y bydd angen talu amdano, neu’n un meddygol sydd ar gael am ddim. Mae’n ddadl sy’n edrych yn hurt o’r tu allan. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym hefyd yn derbyn nad yw’n ariannol bosibl cael gwared yn gyfan gwbl ar daliadau ar hyn o bryd, gan nad oes digon o adnoddau yn y system.

As a party, we believe that, in principle, care should be provided free of charge, as recommended by the royal commission back in 1999. It is a nonsense that we should be debating whether the bath that Mrs Jones needs is a social requirement, for which she will, perhaps, have to pay, rather than a medical requirement, which is available free of charge. For the public, the argument appears to be ridiculous. However, we also accept that it is not financially viable to get rid of all charges at the moment, as there are not enough resources in the system.

Felly, yr ydym yn croesawu’r Mesur arfaethedig yn gynnes, ac yr ydym yn ei weld yn gam pwysig yn y cyfeiriad cywir. Diolch yn fawr i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am hynny.

Therefore, we warmly welcome the proposed Measure, which we see as an important step in the right direction. I am very grateful to the Deputy Minister for that.

I particularly welcome the Deputy Minister’s confirmation that, while the regulations will set a maximum weekly charge of £50, authorities will still be free to charge less than that or not at all. Deputy Minister, I ask you for a commitment to monitor the introduction of the new charging system. I have a slight concern—and this has also been

Croesawaf yn benodol y cadarnhad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog, er y bydd y rheoliadau’n gosod ffi wythnosol uchaf o £50, y bydd awdurdodau’n dal yn rhydd i godi llai na hynny neu ddim o gwbl. Ddirprwy Weinidog, gofynnaf am ymrwymiad gennych y byddwch yn monitro’r system codi tâl newydd wrth ei chyflwyno. Yr wyf yn

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put to me by others—that some authorities may use the introduction of the maximum as an excuse for raising charges, which would have the opposite effect to what you are setting out to achieve. Therefore, I ask you and your officials to monitor the situation and to work with local authorities in Wales to try to avoid that situation—although, of course, it is a decision for them.

pryderu ychydig—ac mae eraill wedi codi’r mater hwn gyda mi hefyd—y gallai rhai awdurdodau edrych ar gyflwyno’r ffi uchaf fel esgus i gynyddu ffioedd, a fyddai’n cael effaith groes i’r hyn yr ydych yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Felly, gofynnaf i chi a’ch swyddogion gadw golwg ar y sefyllfa a chydweithio ag awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i geisio osgoi sefyllfa o’r fath—er mai hwy biau penderfynu, wrth gwrs.

I particularly welcome the full disregard for the constant attendance allowance and severe disablement allowance, thus targeting support and the benefits of this policy at those who have the most severe impairments. I ask the Deputy Minister to keep the disregards under review and to see whether they might be extended in future, when resources allow.

Croesawaf yn benodol y llwyr ddiystyru o’r lwfans gweini cyson a’r lwfans anabledd difrifol, fel y targedir cymorth a buddion y polisi hwn ar y rheini sydd â’r namau mwyaf difrifol. Gofynnaf i’r Dirprwy Weinidog ddal sylw ar y budd-daliadau a ddiystyrir a gweld a ellid eu hymestyn yn y dyfodol, pan fydd adnoddau’n caniatáu.

3.20 p.m.

I particularly welcome the prohibition on charges for transport to day centres. That sets right an anomaly that I know has been of great concern to you, Deputy Minister. It has allowed disabled people who are able to travel independently by bus to travel for free while more severely impaired people who rely on local authority transport have sometimes had to pay. Will you monitor the implementation of that element of the policy to ensure that the prohibition on charging does not lead to transport services being withdrawn? The last thing that you, or any of us, would wish would be for those services not to be available at all once local authorities are not able to charge for them.

Croesawaf yn benodol y gwaharddiad ar godi tâl am gludiant i ganolfannau dydd. Mae hynny’n unioni anghysondeb y gwn ei fod wedi achosi pryder mawr i chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Mae wedi caniatáu i bobl anabl sy’n gallu teithio’n annibynnol mewn bws deithio am ddim tra bo pobl sydd â nam mwy difrifol sy’n dibynnu ar gludiant yr awdurdod lleol wedi gorfod talu weithiau. A wnewch gadw golwg ar y gweithredu ar yr elfen honno o’r polisi i sicrhau na fydd y gwaharddiad ar godi tâl yn arwain at dynnu’n ôl gwasanaethau cludiant? Y peth olaf y byddech chi, neu unrhyw un ohonom ni, yn ei ddymuno fyddai i’r gwasanaethau hynny beidio â bod ar gael o gwbl pan na fydd awdurdodau lleol yn gallu codi tâl amdanynt.

Thank you again, Deputy Minister, for implementing this important ‘One Wales’ policy.

Diolch i chi eto, Ddirprwy Weinidog, am weithredu’r polisi pwysig hwn sydd yn ‘Cymru’n Un’.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch yn fawr, Helen Mary, a diolch am eich sylwadau positif. Wrth gwrs, yr wyf yn rhannu’r farn y byddai’n ddymunol iawn mewn egwyddor pe baem yn gallu cyflwyno gwasanaethau yn rhad ac am ddim. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn gallu fforddio hynny ac mae’n well bod yn onest am hynny. Rhaid cymryd penderfyniadau lletchwith weithiau nad ydynt gyda’r gorau, ond dyna’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi, felly rhaid inni drafod codi tâl.

Gwenda Thomas: Thank you, Helen Mary, and thank you for your positive comments. Of course, I share your view that the ideal would be for us to be able, in principle, to provide services free of charge. However, we cannot afford that, and it is better to be honest about it. Some difficult decisions have to be taken, and that is not always the best situation in which to find ourselves, but that is the reality, so we must discuss making a charge.

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You asked about the total number of service users and the numbers who are paying. It would be useful to share that with the Assembly this afternoon. I have already noted in my opening remarks that 66,000 people use services in the community at the moment. Of those, 32,000 are receiving services for which they could be charged, and 16,000 are paying. The policy on fairer charging introduced by the Welsh Assembly Government in 2007 took a number of people—off the top of my head, I think that it was about 3,000—out of the bracket for charging, even then.

Holasoch am gyfanswm y defnyddwyr gwasanaethau a’r niferoedd sy’n talu. Byddai’n fuddiol rhannu hynny â’r Cynulliad y prynhawn yma. Yr wyf eisoes wedi dweud yn fy sylwadau agoriadol fod 66,000 o bobl yn defnyddio gwasanaethau yn y gymuned ar hyn o bryd. O’r rheini, mae 32,000 yn cael gwasanaethau y gellid codi tâl amdanynt, ac mae 16,000 yn talu. Drwy’r polisi ar godi tâl tecach a gyflwynwyd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn 2007 codwyd nifer o bobl—os cofiaf yn iawn, yr oedd tua 3,000—o ddosbarth lle y byddid yn codi tâl arnynt, hyd yn oed bryd hynny.

Therefore, could we be charging less? Local authorities will have the discretion and could charge less if this proposed Measure is passed and implemented. I am looking at an implementation date of April 2011. However, they will not be able to charge in excess of what is set out in the proposed Measure. I am introducing a referral date of 30 June 2009 as the point at which we will assess any reimbursements. That is to say that whatever the authorities do before the implementation date, the point at which we will assess their loss of income is June 30. That should be understood.

Felly, a allem godi llai? Bydd disgresiwn gan awdurdodau lleol a gallent godi llai os derbynnir y Mesur arfaethedig hwn a’i roi ar waith. Yr wyf yn ystyried ei weithredu yn Ebrill 2011. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddant yn gallu codi mwy na’r hyn sydd wedi ei nodi yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Yr wyf yn cyflwyno 30 Mehefin 2009 fel y dyddiad cyfeirio pan fyddwn yn asesu unrhyw ad-daliadau. Mae hynny’n golygu, beth bynnag a wnaiff yr awdurdodau cyn y dyddiad gweithredu, mai’r pwynt pan fyddwn yn asesu’r incwm a gollant yw 30 Mehefin. Dylid deall hynny.

The disregard of the constant attendance allowance and severe disablement allowance can be extended. That is the nature of the proposed Measure. This is a first step. It can be added to and the legislative competence Order itself allows for the introduction of further Measures, on how pensions are dealt with, for example.

Gellir ymestyn y diystyru o’r lwfans gweini cyson a’r lwfans anabledd difrifol. Dyna natur y Mesur arfaethedig. Mae hwn yn gam cyntaf. Gellir ychwanegu ato ac mae’r Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol ei hun yn caniatáu cyflwyno Mesurau pellach, ynghylch sut i ddelio â phensiynau, er enghraifft.

Monitoring the charging of transport charges, which you asked about, will become an issue for the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, which will be charged with monitoring compliance.

Bydd monitro’r codi tâl am gludiant, yr holasoch amdano, yn dod yn fater i Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru, a fydd yn gyfrifol am fonitro cydymffurfiad.

Peter Black: Deputy Minister, thank you for the statement and for the briefing that you gave to the party spokespeople earlier today. I start by referring back to the original intent of the statement, which was to introduce the proposed Assembly Measure, as opposed to the package that you have, in effect, pre-announced today. My concern with the proposed Measure—and I am sure that it will

Peter Black: Ddirprwy Weinidog, diolch ichi am y datganiad ac am y wybodaeth a roesoch i lefarwyr y pleidiau’n gynharach heddiw. Dechreuaf drwy gyfeirio’n ôl at fwriad gwreiddiol y datganiad, sef cyflwyno’r Mesur Cynulliad arfaethedig, yn hytrach na’r pecyn yr ydych wedi ei rag-gyhoeddi heddiw, i bob pwrpas. Yr hyn sy’n achosi pryder i mi yn y Mesur arfaethedig—

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come out in scrutiny when it goes before committee—is the overreliance of the Government on regulation as a means of effecting change, and the fact that a large amount of what you have referred to today and, presumably, future reforms will not appear on the face of it. That has been a matter of concern with previous Measures and, no doubt, will be with future ones, as well. Can you confirm whether any regulations that you bring in as a result of this proposed Measure will be subject to the superaffirmative procedure, so that they are fully consulted on and debated in the Chamber? In that way, any changes that the Government wishes to introduce will not just be done by ministerial decree; everyone will have an opportunity to comment on them, and we will have a full and frank debate on the ideas behind them and their consequences in the Assembly. Everything can then be seen to be transparent and above board.

ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn codi wrth graffu arno yn y pwyllgor—yw’r gorddibynnu ar reoleiddio gan y Llywodraeth fel modd i ddod â newid, a’r ffaith na fydd llawer iawn o’r hyn yr ydych wedi cyfeirio ato heddiw yn ymddangos ynddo, na diwygiadau yn y dyfodol, gellir cymryd. Mae hynny wedi achosi pryder mewn cysylltiad â Mesurau blaenorol ac mae’n sicr o wneud mewn cysylltiad â rhai yn y dyfodol hefyd. A allwch gadarnhau a fydd unrhyw reoliadau a gyflwynwch o ganlyniad i’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn yn mynd drwy’r weithdrefn uwchgadarnhaol, fel yr ymgynghorir yn llawn arnynt ac y ceir dadl arnynt yn y Siambr? Drwy hynny, ni fydd unrhyw newidiadau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn dymuno eu cyflwyno’n cael eu gwneud drwy ordinhad gweinidogol yn unig; caiff pawb gyfle i wneud sylw amdanynt, a chawn ddadl lawn ac agored ar y syniadau sy’n sail iddynt a’u canlyniadau yn y Cynulliad. Gellir gweld wedyn fod popeth yn dryloyw ac yn briodol.

On the issues that you have raised or pre-announced, can you confirm that the £11 million cost that you have mentioned will be provided by the Welsh Assembly Government, that you will not expect local authorities to find that money, and that it will be available from April 2011 for local authorities to introduce these changes? Can you give us an indication of how that money will be distributed and of the criteria that will be used to assess how much each local authority gets from it?

Ynghylch y materion yr ydych wedi eu codi neu eu rhag-gyhoeddi, a allwch gadarnhau y bydd y gost o £11 filiwn yr ydych wedi ei chrybwyll yn cael ei darparu gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, na fyddwch yn disgwyl i awdurdodau lleol ddod o hyd i’r arian, ac y bydd ar gael o Ebrill 2011 fel y gall awdurdodau lleol gyflwyno’r newidiadau hyn? A allwch roi awgrym inni o’r modd y dosbarthir yr arian hwnnw ac o’r meini prawf a ddefnyddir i asesu faint ohono a gaiff pob awdurdod lleol?

Arising from that, Deputy Minister, I have a concern about the pre-announcement. I am pleased that you have said that today is, effectively, the cut-off date, so that no local authority can immediately double its charges in the hope of getting money from the Welsh Assembly Government, but several local authorities already charge less than the £50 rate already, and they have taken difficult budget decisions to enable them to do that, with other services consequently having to suffer. Other authorities have set their charges at a higher rate and have accrued additional income, which they can then spend on those services. Those authorities that have the higher rate will receive compensation for lowering it to the £50 maximum. However, those that are already charging less than £50

Yn dilyn hynny, Ddirprwy Weinidog, mae un mater yn fy mhoeni ynghylch y rhag-gyhoeddiad. Yr wyf yn falch ichi ddweud mai heddiw, i bob pwrpas, yw’r dyddiad terfyn, fel na all unrhyw awdurdod lleol ddyblu ei ffioedd ar unwaith gan obeithio cael arian gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, ond mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol sydd eisoes yn codi llai na’r gyfradd o £50, ac maent wedi gwneud penderfyniadau anodd mewn cysylltiad â’u cyllideb i’w galluogi i wneud hynny, a gwasanaethau eraill wedi gorfod dioddef o ganlyniad. Mae awdurdodau eraill wedi gosod eu ffioedd ar gyfradd uwch ac wedi cael incwm ychwanegol, y gallant ei wario wedyn ar y gwasanaethau hynny. Bydd yr awdurdodau hynny sydd â chyfradd uwch yn cael iawndal am ei gostwng i’r gyfradd

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will not get that compensation and, as a result, will not get the additional dividend, if you like, attached to your policy, which they could have spent on other services. It appears as though, well meaning though the policy is, those authorities that have been considerate of service users and careful in setting their charging policy will lose out on the compensation payable. How will you explain that to those local authorities, and what consideration did you give to that when you set out this policy and put it in place?

uchaf o £50. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd y rheini sydd eisoes yn codi llai na £50 yn cael yr iawndal hwnnw ac, o ganlyniad, ni fyddant yn cael y difidend ychwanegol, os caf ei roi felly, sydd ynglŷn â’ch polisi, y gallent fod wedi ei wario ar wasanaethau eraill. Mae’n ymddangos, er cystal yw bwriad y polisi, y bydd yr awdurdodau hynny a fu’n ystyriol o ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau ac yn ofalus wrth bennu eu polisi ar godi tâl ar eu colled o ran yr iawndal sy’n daladwy. Sut y byddwch yn egluro hynny i’r awdurdodau lleol hynny, a pha ystyriaeth a roesoch iddo wrth osod y polisi hwn a’i roi ar waith?

Gwenda Thomas: Thank you for your comments, Peter. You referred to the scrutiny of the proposed Measure, and then you suggested that there was an overreliance on regulations and asked whether they would be subject to the superaffirmative procedure. I understand that that depends on the contents of any regulations. I certainly think that some of them will come within this procedure, and whether some come under the negative procedure is a matter for someone other than me to decide when we know the details and contents. However, I would like there to be thorough scrutiny of the regulations, and I give a commitment that there will be wide consultation with stakeholders and others. As I have already said, the regulations will be subject to a regulatory impact assessment.

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch ichi am eich sylwadau, Peter. Cyfeiriasoch at y craffu ar y Mesur arfaethedig, ac awgrymu wedyn fod gorddibynnu ar reoliadau a gofyn a fyddent yn mynd drwy’r weithdrefn uwchgadarnhaol. Yr wyf yn deall bod hynny’n dibynnu ar gynnwys unrhyw reoliadau. Yr wyf yn sicr yn credu y bydd rhai ohonynt yn mynd drwy’r weithdrefn hon, ac mae penderfynu a fydd rhai ohonynt yn mynd drwy’r weithdrefn negyddol yn fater i rywun heblaw fi pan wyddom am y manylion a’r cynnwys. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn weld craffu trwyadl ar y rheoliadau, a rhoddaf ymrwymiad y bydd ymgynghori eang â rhanddeiliaid ac eraill. Fel yr wyf wedi dweud yn barod, bydd y rheoliadau’n mynd drwy asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol.

As for the date of April 2011 and the costs of implementation, the costs will be contained within the Welsh social care budget. Any reimbursements will be carried out in accordance with the principle that was used when we negotiated the introduction of the fairer charging policy with authorities in 2007 through the Welsh Local Government Association. It will be done in accordance with the partnership agreement that now exists between the Welsh Assembly Government and the WLGA.

O ran y dyddiad o Ebrill 2011 a chostau gweithredu, bydd y costau wedi eu cynnwys yng nghyllideb gofal cymdeithasol Cymru. Cwblheir unrhyw ad-daliadau’n unol â’r egwyddor a ddefnyddiwyd pan wnaethom negodi i gyflwyno’r polisi ar godi tâl tecach gydag awdurdodau yn 2007 drwy Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Fe’i gwneir yn unol â’r cytundeb partneriaeth sy’n bod yn awr rhwng Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a CLlLC.

3.30 p.m.

This will include the authorities that currently charge below the level of the charges that it is anticipated will be introduced by this proposed Measure. To the best of my knowledge, only two authorities in Wales currently charge below that level. Fifteen

Bydd hyn yn cynnwys yr awdurdodau sydd ar hyn o bryd yn codi llai na’r hyn a ragwelir a fydd yn cael ei gyflwyno yn sgil y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Hyd y gwn i, dim ond dau awdurdod yng Nghymru sy’n codi llai na’r lefel honno ar hyn o bryd. Mae gan bymtheg

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authorities have a higher upper limit and five have no upper limit at all. I give a commitment to fully negotiate the reimbursement issues with the Welsh Local Government Association.

awdurdod derfyn uchaf ac nid oes gan bump ohonynt derfyn uchaf o gwbl. Yr wyf yn ymrwymo i negodi mater yr ad-daliadau’n llawn â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru.

Joyce Watson: I welcome your statement, Deputy Minister. The Assembly Government has consistently said that it wants a fairer and consistent system of charging for care, and this proposed Measure will, at last, achieve that. As Chair of the legislative competence Order committee that originally looked at this issue, I heard the evidence about the disparities in the policies of Welsh local authorities on charging for home care and the impact that those charges have on service users. For example, at the moment, I am in consultation with a constituent in Gwynedd who, under the current legal framework, has gone from paying £8 per hour for vital care last year to paying £12 per hour since April. Another constituent has been in contact with me about the fact that the maximum charge is increasing from £96 per week to £340 per week in one go. We cannot expect individuals or family members who are paying for home care to be able to cope with those sorts of sudden increases in costs.

Joyce Watson: Croesawaf eich datganiad, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi dweud o’r dechrau ei bod am gael system decach a mwy cyson ar gyfer codi am ofal, a bydd y Mesur arfaethedig hwn, o’r diwedd, yn cyflawni hynny. Fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a edrychodd ar y mater hwn yn y lle cyntaf, clywais dystiolaeth am yr anghysonderau ym mholisïau awdurdodau lleol Cymru ar godi am ofal cartref a’r effaith y mae’r costau hynny’n ei chael ar ddefnyddwyr gwasanaeth. Er enghraifft, ar hyn o bryd, yr wyf yn ymgynghori ag etholwr yng Ngwynedd a oedd, o dan y fframwaith cyfreithiol presennol, yn talu £8 yr awr am ofal hanfodol y llynedd ond sydd ers mis Ebrill wedi bod yn talu £12 yr awr. Mae etholwr arall wedi cysylltu â mi am fod uchafswm y gost yn codi o £96 yr wythnos i £340 yr wythnos mewn un naid. Ni allwn ddisgwyl i unigolion neu aelodau teulu sy’n talu am ofal cartref allu ymdopi â’r fath gynnydd sydyn mewn costau.

It is clear that budgets will be tight over the next few years, for families and for the Government, so the introduction of an upper threshold for care charges is an important step in the right direction. It will give individuals and their families the security of knowing that charges will not suddenly shoot up, as they did in the example that I just mentioned. It will also give local authorities a figure that they can use when planning their budgets. Some local authorities that have set charges at what might have been called competitive rates in the past have argued that there is a need to increase charges significantly to cover their costs. I seek assurances, and you have given some today, that local authorities will be given time to plan their budgets to accommodate the proposed threshold without having to eat into the funding of other core services. How are you working with the WLGA and local authorities to ensure that they are able to meet the threshold and that other services

Mae’n amlwg y bydd cyllidebau’n dynn yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf, i deuluoedd ac i’r Llywodraeth, felly mae cyflwyno trothwy uchaf ar gyfer costau gofal yn gam pwysig i’r cyfeiriad cywir. Bydd yn rhoi sicrwydd i unigolion a theuluoedd na fydd costau’n cynyddu’n sydyn, fel y digwyddodd yn yr enghraifft yr wyf newydd ei rhoi. Bydd hefyd yn rhoi ffigur i awdurdodau lleol y gallant ei ddefnyddio pan maent yn cynllunio’u cyllidebau. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol sydd wedi pennu costau yn ôl yr hyn y gellid eu galw’n gyfraddau cystadleuol yn y gorffennol wedi dadlau ei bod yn rhaid cynyddu costau’n sylweddol er mwyn talu eu costau. Hoffwn sicrwydd, ac yr ydych wedi rhoi rhywfaint o sicrwydd imi heddiw, y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn cael amser i gynllunio’u cyllidebau i ddelio â’r trothwy arfaethedig heb iddynt orfod defnyddio arian sydd wedi’i neilltuo ar gyfer gwasanaethau craidd eraill. Sut yr ydych yn gweithio gyda CLlLC a’r awdurdodau lleol i

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will not be adversely affected by the introduction of the proposed Measure, as stated earlier?

sicrhau eu bod yn gallu cyrraedd y trothwy ac na fydd cyflwyno’r Mesur arfaethedig yn cael effaith andwyol ar wasanaethau eraill, fel y dywedwyd yn gynharach?

The issue of disregard was crucial in the evidence sessions that I chaired. The postcode lottery that currently exists cannot remain, at a time when families and individuals are put under great strain. They cannot be expected to navigate their way around what is now a difficult-to-understand system. Clarity is the key and I welcome that. On the issue of best practice, are you going to consider using the benefits rights advisers in relevant departments so that free advice is available to people in every case?

Yr oedd mater diystyru’n hanfodol yn y sesiynau tystiolaeth a gadeiriais. Ni ellir caniatáu i’r loteri god post sy’n bodoli ar hyn o bryd barhau, ar adeg pan mae teuluoedd ac unigolion o dan straen mawr. Ni ellir disgwyl iddynt ymlafnio’u ffordd drwy system sydd yn awr yn un anodd ei deall. Mae eglurder yn allweddol a chroesawaf hynny. O ran arferion gorau, a ydych am ystyried defnyddio cynghorwyr hawliau budd-dal mewn adrannau perthnasol i sicrhau bod cyngor di-dâl ar gael i bobl ym mhob achos?

Gwenda Thomas: I am sure that we all agree with the first point that you made about fairer and more consistent charging. On your reference to the postcode lottery, it is perceived to be unfair and it is unfair to service users. It is inequitable. The hourly rates in Wales vary from £5 to £15 an hour and the upper limits for weekly charges vary from £16.20 to £200 and some authorities have no upper limit at all, as I have already said. I believe that people over 60 years of age with complex care packages, who are perhaps some of the most disabled and vulnerable in our society, will be the ones to benefit most from the regulations that will follow this proposed Measure. It is my strong view that it is right to recognise the degree of disability, hence the intention to disregard the constant attendance allowance and the severe disablement allowance, which we all know is only paid to the most disabled people.

Gwenda Thomas: Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn cytuno â’r pwynt cyntaf a wnaethoch ynghylch trefniadau codi tâl tecach a mwy cyson. Ynglŷn â’ch cyfeiriad at y loteri god post, mae’n cael ei weld fel rhywbeth annheg ac mae’n annheg i ddefnyddwyr gwasanaeth. Mae’n anghyfiawn. Mae’r cyfraddau’r awr yng Nghymru’n amrywio o £5 i £15 yr awr ac mae’r terfynau uchaf ar gyfer costau wythnosol yn amrywio o £16.20 i £200 ac nid oes gan rai awdurdodau derfyn uchaf o gwbl, fel y dywedais eisoes. Credaf mai pobl dros 60 oed â phecynnau gofal cymhleth, sef rhai o’r bobl fwyaf anabl ac agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas o bosibl, fydd y rhai a fydd yn elwa fwyaf o’r rheoliadau a fydd yn dod yn sgil y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Credaf yn gryf ei bod yn deg cydnabod difrifoldeb yr anabledd, a thrwy hynny’r bwriad i ddiystyru’r lwfans gweini cyson a’r lwfans anabledd difrifol, sydd, fel y gwyddom i gyd, yn cael ei dalu i’r bobl fwyaf anabl yn unig.

The WLGA and local authorities were members of the task group, so they have been fully involved, up to now, with developing the proposed Measure. We will continue that partnership and will work with the WLGA and local authorities to develop the regulations further, assuming the proposed Measure is accepted.

Yr oedd CLlLC ac awdurdodau lleol yn aelodau o’r tasglu, felly maent wedi cael eu cynnwys yn llawn, hyd yma, ym mhroses datblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig. Byddwn yn parhau â’r bartneriaeth honno ac yn gweithio gyda CLlLC a’r awdurdodau lleol i ddatblygu’r rheoliadau ymhellach, gan gymryd y bydd y Mesur arfaethedig yn cael ei dderbyn.

There is wide and effective use of benefits rights teams by local authorities. Many millions of pounds have been gained for people relying on disability benefits and on

Mae awdurdodau lleol yn defnyddio timau hawliau budd-dal yn helaeth ac yn effeithiol. Mae miliynau lawer o bunnoedd wedi eu sicrhau i bobl sy’n dibynnu ar fudd-daliadau

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other benefits. However, an important aspect of the intention that I have announced today is to review financial assessments and to make that a simple procedure. I am sure that we have all received correspondence on this. If there are simple mathematical errors or if there is a straightforward issue that can be amended, following a financial assessment, then that should happen quickly. We should not expect people to go through a complex complaints procedure. I welcome the review as being a positive way forward to help service users.

anabledd ac ar fudd-daliadau eraill. Fodd bynnag, un elfen bwysig o’r bwriad a gyhoeddwyd gennyf heddiw yw adolygu asesiadau ariannol ac i wneud hynny’n drefn syml. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd wedi derbyn gohebiaeth ar hyn. Os oes camgymeriadau mathemategol syml neu os oes problem amlwg y gellir ei datrys, yn dilyn asesiad ariannol, yna dylid gwneud hynny’n gyflym. Ni ddylem ddisgwyl i bobl orfod mynd drwy broses gwyno gymhleth. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r adolygiad fel ffordd bositif ymlaen i gynorthwyo defnyddwyr gwasanaeth.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei datganiad deddfwriaethol.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister for her legislative statement.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 3.36 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 3.36 p.m.

Y Polisi Trawsnewid (Trawsnewid Darparwyr Addysg a Hyfforddiant)Transformation Policy (Transforming Education and Training Providers)

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Alun Cairns, and amendments 5 and 6 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2, 3 a 4 yn enw Alun Cairns, a gwelliannau 5 a 6 yn enw Peter Black.

The Deputy Minister for Skills (John Griffiths): I move that

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau (John Griffiths): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

welcomes the emerging pattern of post-16 provision, as set out in the paper ‘Transforming Education and Training Provision: Pattern Across Wales’ and acknowledges the significant progress made. (NDM4254)

yn croesawu’r patrwm sy’n dod i’r amlwg o ran darpariaeth ddysgu ôl-16, fel y nodir yn y papur ‘Trawsnewid y Ddarpariaeth Addysg a Hyfforddiant: Y Patrwm ledled Cymru’ ac yn cydnabod y cynnydd sylweddol a wnaed. (NDM4254)

In September last year, we launched this policy to build on the well-documented improvements to post-16 education quality and delivery, to challenge all providers to set aside traditional, narrow, institutional arrangements and to plan provision collectively, to direct more of the funding available to teaching and learning and to transform our network of providers. Our aim is to widen the options available to young people, reduce unnecessary duplication and further improve the quality of the learning

Fis Medi’r llynedd, lansiwyd y polisi hwn gennym i adeiladu ar y gwelliannau a nodwyd i ansawdd a darpariaeth addysg ôl-16 oed, i herio pob darparwr i roi o’r neilltu’r trefniadau traddodiadol, cyfyng, sefydliadol ac i gynllunio darpariaeth ar y cyd, i gyfeirio mwy o’r arian sydd ar gael at addysgu a dysgu ac i weddnewid ein rhwydwaith o ddarparwyr. Ein nod yw cynyddu’r opsiynau sydd ar gael i bobl ifanc, lleihau ailadrodd diangen a gwella ansawdd y dysgu a gynigir ymhellach. Dylai rhagoriaeth fod yn norm,

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offered. Excellence must become the norm, making best use of available funds.

gan ddefnyddio’r arian sydd ar gael yn y ffordd orau bosibl.

This policy is not prescriptive. It has been designed to encourage stakeholders to develop local solutions rather than a one-size-fits-all model across Wales. Its implementation will provide benefits across all post-16 education, including greater effectiveness, efficiency and increased responsiveness, more cross-sector networking between and across all provider sectors, for example, schools with colleges, colleges with universities and with the involvement of work-based learning providers. Its implementation will also lead to mergers of further education institutions and, where appropriate, the development of post-16 tertiary systems.

Nid yw’r polisi hwn yn rhagnodol. Mae wedi’i gynllunio i annog rhanddeiliaid i ddatblygu atebion lleol yn hytrach nag un model sy’n gorfod gwneud y tro i bawb yng Nghymru. Bydd ei weithredu’n golygu buddiannau ym mhob agwedd ar addysg ôl-16 oed, gan gynnwys mwy o effeithiolrwydd, effeithlonrwydd ac ymatebolrwydd pellach, mwy o rwydweithio traws sector rhwng ac ar draws pob sector darparu, er enghraifft, ysgolion a cholegau, colegau a phrifysgolion a chynnwys darparwyr dysgu yn y gweithle. Bydd ei weithredu hefyd yn arwain at uno sefydliadau addysg bellach a, phan yn briodol, at ddatblygu systemau trydyddol ôl-16 oed.

Stakeholders have responded to the policy by submitting outline proposals to my department, to implement transformation. Those are summarised in the paper provided for this debate and will cover every local education authority area and further education establishment in Wales—developing local solutions to local needs.

Mae rhanddeiliaid wedi ymateb i’r polisi drwy gyflwyno cynigion ar-lein i fy adran, i weithredu tawsnewid. Mae’r rhain wedi’u crynhoi yn y papur a baratowyd ar gyfer y ddadl hon a bydd yn cynnwys ardal pob awdurdod addysg lleol a sefydliad addysg bellach yng Nghymru—datblygu atebion lleol i ddiwallu anghenion lleol.

The proposals fall into the five main categories: the development of school/further education institution consortia groupings; proposals to unite all learning provision within an area, including schools and further and higher education institutions; further education college mergers; the reorganisation of maintained secondary schools, with formal links to other learning providers; and all-Wales sectoral skills proposals.

Mae’r cynigion yn dod o fewn y pum prif gategori: datblygu grwpiau o gonsortia ysgolion/sefydliadau addysg bellach; cynigion i uno pob darpariaeth ddysgu o fewn ardal, gan gynnwys ysgolion a sefydliadau addysg bellach ac uwch; uno colegau addysg bellach; ad-drefnu ysgolion uwchradd a gynhelir, gyda chysylltiadau ffurfiol â darparwyr dysgu eraill, a chynigion o ran sgiliau sector Cymru gyfan.

3.40 p.m.

The timeframes for full implementation will vary in line with the scale and nature of the plans, together with the need for, and outcome of, any statutory procedures. Nevertheless, I expect 60 per cent of the stakeholders to be implementing approved models for change by September 2010, and the remaining 40 per cent by September 2011.

Bydd yr amserlen ar gyfer gweithredu’r cynigion yn llawn yn amrywio’n ôl graddfa a natur y cynlluniau, ynghyd â’r angen am, a chanlyniad, unrhyw weithdrefnau statudol. Er hynny, disgwyliaf y bydd 60 y cant o’r rhanddeiliaid yn gweithredu modelau ar gyfer newid a gymeradwywyd erbyn Medi 2010, a’r 40 y cant arall erbyn Medi 2011.

Half the local authority areas propose formal links between schools and FE colleges—a step-change from the current loose and

Mae hanner yr awdurdodau lleol yn cynnig cysylltiadau ffurfiol rhwng ysgolion a cholegau addysg bellach—newid sylfaenol

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informal arrangements. Several local authorities, colleges and universities are already well advanced in their plans. The development of a learning campus for Blaenau Gwent and the proposed reorganisation of post-16 education in Torfaen offer early opportunities for Assembly Government support. Powys and Pembrokeshire local authorities are seeking the best way to integrate all learning provision, including higher education. Merthyr Tydfil partners are developing a learning campus model. We welcome this commitment.

o’r trefniadau llac ac anffurfiol presennol. Mae cynlluniau nifer o awdurdodau lleol, colegau a phrifysgolion wedi’u datblygu’n dda eisoes. Mae datblygiad campws dysgu ar gyfer Blaenau Gwent a’r ad-drefnu arfaethedig ar gyfer addysg ôl-16 oed yn Nhor-faen yn cynnig cyfleoedd cynnar ar gyfer cymorth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae awdurdodau lleol Powys a sir Benfro’n chwilio am y ffordd oriau i integreiddio pob darpariaeth ddysgu, gan gynnwys addysg uwch. Mae partneriaid Merthyr Tudful yn datblygu model campws dysgu. Yr ydym yn croesawu’r ymrwymiad hwn.

Proposals to unify post-16 provision can drive not just educational change, but economic and social regeneration too, thereby building educational presence and strategic leadership. The Heads of the Valleys transformation plans for Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr Tydfil have the potential to dramatically improve life chances for young people and adults, improve access to further and higher education, and provide communities with the skills and confidence to grow and develop. The university for the Heads of the Valleys initiative is set to link in to that and add much value.

Gall cynigion i uno darpariaeth ôl-16 oed arwain nid yn unig at newid addysgol, ond at adfywiad economaidd a chymdeithasol hefyd, gan ddatblygu presenoldeb addysgol ac arweinyddiaeth strategol. Mae gan gynlluniau trawsnewid Blaenau’r Cymoedd ar gyfer Blaenau Gwent a Merthyr Tudful y potensial i wella cyfleoedd bywyd pobl ifanc ac oedolion yn sylweddol, i wella mynediad at addysg bellach ac uwch, ac i sicrhau bod cymunedau’n meddu ar y sgiliau a’r hyder y mae eu hangen arnynt i dyfu a datblygu. Bydd y cynllun prifysgol ar gyfer Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn datblygu i fod yn rhan o hynny a bydd yn ychwanegu llawer o werth.

Further education colleges are investigating the benefits of merger. Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor and Coleg Llandrillo Cymru, Deeside College and Coleg Llysfasi, Swansea College and Gorseinon College, and Barry College and Coleg Glan Hafren are all candidates for early investment to support implementation. Each of these proposals represents the development of best practice under the transformation agenda, and this will be shared throughout Wales as they are implemented.

Mae colegau addysg bellach yn ymchwilio i fuddiannau uno. Mae Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor a Choleg Llandrillo Cymru, Coleg Glannau Dyfrdwy a Choleg Llysfasi, Coleg Abertawe a Choleg Gorseinon, a Choleg y Barri a Choleg Glan Hafren i gyd yn ymgeiswyr ar gyfer buddsoddiad cynnar i gynorthwyo i weithredu. Mae pob un o’r cynigion hyn yn enghraifft o ddatblygiad arferion gorau o dan yr agenda weddnewid, a bydd y rhain yn cael eu rhannu ledled Cymru wrth iddynt gael eu gweithredu.

Several local authorities, such as Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion, are also focusing on proposals for secondary school reorganisation. Indeed, the majority of local authorities indicate a commitment to eradicating the isolated planning and delivery of post-16 provision, with few local authorities indicating that they will maintain the status quo. The skills agenda features strongly in several proposals, with stakeholders keen to investigate ways of

Mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol, megis sir Gaerfyrddin a Cheredigion, hefyd yn canolbwyntio ar gynigion i ad-drefnu ysgolion uwchradd. Yn wir, mae mwyafrif yr awdurdodau lleol wedi dangos ymrwymiad i roi heibio cynllunio a chyflawni darpariaeth ôl-16 oed yn unigol, gydag ychydig yn unig o awdurdodau lleol yn awgrymu y byddant yn glynu wrth y drefn bresennol. Mae’r agenda sgiliau’n elfen amlwg o sawl cynnig, gyda rhanddeiliaid yn awyddus i edrych ar ffyrdd o

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improving work-based learning delivery. wella darpariaeth dysgu yn y gweithle.

With regard to Welsh-medium education, business cases have to set out how they will further develop this provision in the context of our Welsh-medium education strategy and our 14 to 19 Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009.

O ran addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae achosion busnes wedi amlinellu sut y byddant yn datblygu’r ddarpariaeth hon ymhellach yng nghyd-destun ein strategaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg a’n Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau 14 i 19 oed (Cymru) 2009.

Different parts of Wales, be they rural or urban, require different approaches. Rural areas present challenges, but there is a need to widen access there and to ensure that learners have opportunities to progress into further and higher education. We will work with providers to overcome the difficulties, for example, by maximising the use of information technology solutions.

Bydd angen dulliau gwahanol o weithredu ar gyfer gwahanol rannau o Gymru, boed hwy’n ardaloedd gwledig neu drefol. Mae ardaloedd gwledig yn her, ond mae angen ehangu mynediad yno a sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn cael cyfle i symud ymlaen i addysg bellach ac uwch. Byddwn yn gweithio gyda darparwyr i oresgyn yr anawsterau, er enghraifft, drwy ddefnyddio atebion technoleg gwybodaeth i’r eithaf.

Working in tandem with the transformation policy are our 14-19 learning pathways, including the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009, creating rights and duties for a wide choice, practical and academic, and better support for all our young people, delivering collaboration and joined-up provision, and improving progression to further and higher education. This reflects our ambition in ‘Skills That Work for Wales’ to more closely align post-16 provision with the needs of employers, learners and Welsh communities.

Yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â’n polisi trawsnewid mae ein llwybrau dysgu 14-19 oed, gan gynnwys Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) 2009, sy’n creu hawliau a dyletswyddau ar gyfer mwy o ddewis, yn ymarferol ac yn academaidd, a gwell cefnogaeth i’n holl bobl ifanc, gan arwain at gydweithredu a darpariaeth gydgysylltiedig, a gwella camu ymlaen i addysg bellach ac uwch. Mae hyn yn ategu ein huchelgais yn ‘Sgiliau sy’n Gweithio i Gymru’ i alinio darpariaeth ôl-16 oed yn agosach at anghenion cyflogwyr, dysgwyr a chymunedau Cymru.

Much is happening to take forward education and training in Wales. Just last week, we announced our response to the higher education review, and we are considering our strategy for the way ahead. I will be chairing the review of governance in further education and schools to ensure that we have a vibrant post-16 school and further education sector. We have also invited proposals for the development of adult and community learning partnerships. All of these initiatives will support the further development of networks of learning across Wales.

Mae llawer yn digwydd i ddatblygu addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddasom ein hymateb i’r adolygiad o addysg uwch, ac yr ydym yn ystyried ein strategaeth ar gyfer y ffordd ymlaen. Byddaf yn cadeirio’r adolygiad o lywodraethu mewn addysg bellach ac ysgolion i sicrhau bod gennym sector ôl-16 sy’n ffynnu mewn ysgolion ac addysg bellach. Yr ydym hefyd wedi gwahodd cynigion ar gyfer datblygu partneriaethau addysg i oedolion a dysgu cymunedol. Bydd yr holl fentrau hyn yn cefnogi datblygiad pellach rhwydweithiau dysgu ledled Cymru.

The pattern of provision that is emerging from transformation proposals is the foundation for these improvements. Making better use of precious public money is crucially important in these times of

Patrwm y ddarpariaeth sy’n dod i’r amlwg yn sgil y cynigion trawsnewid yw’r sail ar gyfer y gwelliannau hyn. Mae defnyddio arian cyhoeddus gwerthfawr yn well yn hollbwysig yn y cyfnod hwn o ddirwasgiad a chyfyngu

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recession and tightening budgets. The Welsh Assembly Government is working with learning partnerships to develop and implement proposals, and to make necessary capital moneys available. Improving education and skills levels must be a shared agenda for individuals, communities, employers and the public sector. We all have the responsibility and opportunity to build a better Wales. The progress that we are debating is impressive evidence of the will and commitment to create a new transformed post-16 education and training system for our people.

cyllidebau. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn gweithio gyda phartneriaethau dysgu i ddatblygu cynigion a’u rhoi ar waith, ac i ddarparu’r arian cyfalaf angenrheidiol. Rhaid i’r agenda gwella lefelau addysg a sgiliau fod yn un a rennir rhwng unigolion, cymunedau, cyflogwyr a’r sector cyhoeddus. Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom oll, ac mae gennym oll y cyfle, i greu Cymru well. Mae’r cynnydd yr ydym yn ei drafod yn dystiolaeth drawiadol o’r ewyllys a’r ymrwymiad i greu system addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 newydd sydd wedi’i trawsnewid i’n pobl.

Paul Davies: I move the following amendments in the name of Alun Cairns. Amendment 1: delete ‘welcomes’ and replace with ‘notes’.

Paul Davies: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Alun Cairns. Gwelliant 1: dileu ‘croesawu’ a rhoi ‘nodi’ yn ei le.

Amendment 2: delete ‘and acknowledges the significant progress made’.

Gwelliant 2: dileu ‘ac yn cydnabod y cynnydd sylweddol a wnaed’.

Amendment 3: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the implementation of the transformation policy includes adequate provision and support for all post-16 learners, including those with additional learning needs.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i sicrhau bod gweithredu’r polisi trawsnewid yn cynnwys darpariaeth a chefnogaeth ddigonol ar gyfer yr holl ddysgwyr ôl-16, gan gynnwys y rheini sydd ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol.

Amendment 4: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 4: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the implementation of the transformation policy fully recognises the different challenges facing urban and rural areas when delivering post-16 education.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i sicrhau bod gweithredu’r polisi trawsnewid yn cydnabod yn llawn y gwahanol heriau sy’n wynebu ardaloedd trefol a gwledig wrth ddarparu addysg ôl-16.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in the debate and to move the amendments in the name of Alun Cairns on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives. It will be no surprise that we will also support the Liberal Democrat amendments in the name of Peter Black, given that they are along similar lines to ours.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gael y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl ac i gynnig y gwelliannau yn enw Alun Cairns ar ran y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Ni fydd yn peri syndod y byddwn hefyd yn cefnogi gwelliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn enw Peter Black, ac ystyried eu bod yn debyg i’n gwelliannau ni o ran eu cynnwys.

On many occasions in the Assembly, I and many others have spoken of the necessity for Wales to have a strong skills base. There is currently a shortfall in skills across Wales,

Ar lawer achlysur yn y Cynulliad, yr wyf fi a llawer o Aelodau eraill wedi sôn am y rheidrwydd i Gymru gael sylfaen gref o ran sgiliau. Ceir diffyg sgiliau ledled Cymru ar

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and it is vitally important that we redress the situation to aid our economic development, especially in the current climate. We must ensure that our young people are offered opportunities to improve their skills so that they can pursue their chosen careers and make a contribution to our economy.

hyn o bryd, ac mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn unioni’r sefyllfa er mwyn cynorthwyo ein datblygiad economaidd, yn enwedig yn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod ein pobl ifanc yn cael cynnig cyfleoedd i wella eu sgiliau fel y gallant ddilyn y gyrfaoedd y maent wedi’u dewis a chyfrannu at ein heconomi.

As Members will be aware, one of the key priorities of ‘Transforming Education and Training Provision in Wales: Delivering Skills That Work for Wales’ is

Fel y bydd yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol, un o flaenoriaethau allweddol ‘Trawsnewid y Ddarpariaeth Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru: Darparu Sgiliau sy’n Gweithio i Gymru’ yw

‘to ensure that all learning delivery, from the age of 16, is fundamentally reshaped, reconfigured and transformed so that all delivery is harmonised.’

‘sicrhau y caiff yr holl ddarpariaeth dysgu, o 16 oed, ei hail-lunio, ei hailgyflunio a’i thrawsnewid yn llwyr er mwyn ei chysoni’.

While it is encouraging to see that post-16 providers are making progress with this process, I have concerns about the implementation of an effective structure to deliver the skills of the future. It can be argued that the policy to do this is not yet progressing, given some of the comments that I have received from FE institutions. Some feel that there is currently a lack of leadership on this particular issue.

Er ei bod yn galonogol gweld bod darparwyr ôl-16 yn gwneud cynnydd o ran y broses hon, mae gennyf bryderon ynghylch rhoi strwythur effeithiol ar waith i ddarparu sgiliau’r dyfodol. Gellir dadlau nad yw’r polisi i wneud hyn yn symud yn ei flaen eto, ac ystyried rhai o’r sylwadau yr wyf wedi’u cael gan sefydliadau addysg bellach. Mae rhai’n teimlo y ceir diffyg arweinyddiaeth ar y mater penodol hwn ar hyn o bryd.

The consultation document that led to the proposed pattern across Wales that we are discussing acknowledges that transforming education and training provision is not necessarily cost-neutral. Indeed, reorganisation and development of new facilities could prove to be incredibly costly, and FE providers will inevitably require additional funding to make these changes. As we have seen on previous occasions, the Assembly Government has failed to recognise the true cost of some schemes—I am sure that none of us have forgotten the funding debacle surrounding the roll-out of the foundation phase. Likewise, this year’s FE funding shortfall and subsequent protests are still fresh in our minds.

Mae’r ddogfen ymgynghori a arweiniodd at y patrwm arfaethedig ledled Cymru yr ydym yn ei drafod yn cydnabod nad yw trawsnewid darpariaeth addysg a hyfforddiant, o reidrwydd, yn niwtral o ran cost. Yn wir, gallai ad-drefnu a datblygu cyfleusterau newydd fod yn hynod o gostus, ac mae’n anorfod y bydd ar ddarparwyr addysg bellach angen cyllid ychwanegol i wneud y newidiadau hyn. Fel y gwelsom ar achlysuron blaenorol, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi methu cydnabod gwir gost rhai cynlluniau—yr wyf yn siŵr nad oes yr un ohonom wedi anghofio’r llanast ariannu a gafwyd wrth gyflwyno’r cyfnod sylfaen. Yn yr un modd, mae diffyg cyllid addysg bellach eleni a’r protestiadau a gafwyd yn sgil hynny yn dal i fod yn fyw yn ein meddyliau.

What will the Deputy Minister and the Assembly Government do to ensure that adequate funding will be provided for the changes in provision structure? While it is important that the changes in the provision of

Beth y bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud i sicrhau y darperir cyllid digonol ar gyfer y newidiadau yn strwythur y ddarpariaeth? Er ei bod yn bwysig bod y newidiadau yn y

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post-16 learning are framed on a national level, it is essential that we remember that a one-size-fits-all approach is not always appropriate for the needs of learners, and I was glad to hear what the Deputy Minister said earlier in that regard. I believe that the original consultation document also makes note of this, and I strongly urge the Deputy Minister to ensure that this is carried through the implementation process. What suits learners needs in urban areas does not always correspond with that of learners in rural areas. Will the Deputy Minister give another reassurance that the implementation of the proposed changes will not be to the detriment of those in rural areas? What is being done specifically to ensure that opinions of learners in such areas are being taken into account?

ddarpariaeth dysgu ôl-16 yn cael eu llunio ar lefel genedlaethol, mae’n hanfodol inni gofio nad yw dull un model sy’n addas i bawb yn gweddu i anghenion dysgwyr bob amser, ac yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed yr hyn a ddywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn gynharach ynghylch hynny. Credaf fod y ddogfen ymgynghori wreiddiol hefyd yn nodi hyn, ac anogaf y Dirprwy Weinidog yn gryf i sicrhau y dilynir yr egwyddor hon drwy gydol y broses weithredu. Nid yw’r hyn sy’n gweddu i anghenion dysgwyr mewn ardaloedd trefol yn cyd-fynd bob amser â’r hyn sy’n gweddu i ddysgwyr mewn ardaloedd gwledig. A wnaiff y Dirprwy Weinidog sicrhau eto na fydd y modd y bydd y newidiadau arfaethedig yn cael eu rhoi ar waith er anfantais i’r rheini mewn ardaloedd gwledig? Beth sy’n cael ei wneud yn benodol i sicrhau bod safbwyntiau dysgwyr mewn ardaloedd o’r fath yn cael eu hystyried?

I very much hope that any changes as a result of the implementation of the transformation policy will not be the detriment of our sixth forms because we are already seeing protests in places such as Merthyr Tydfil where people are protesting against the closure of the town’s four sixth forms.

Gobeithiaf yn fawr na fydd unrhyw newidiadau yn sgil rhoi’r polisi trawsnewid ar waith er anfantais ein dosbarthiadau chwech oherwydd yr ydym eisoes yn gweld protestiadau mewn lleoedd megis Merthyr Tudful lle mae pobl yn protestio yn erbyn cau pedwar chweched dosbarth y dref.

3.50 p.m.

I would also like to highlight the importance of ensuring that the needs of learners with additional learning needs are met. In recent debates we have heard concerns about the provision of post-16 and post-19 education. Many Members would agree that there is a shortfall in that provision, which needs urgent redress. If this transformation agenda is to truly prepare young people for the full range of pathways that are open to them, we must see a vast improvement in the support and learning opportunities offered to those students with additional learning needs. As such, I would like to hear from the Deputy Minister, in his response, what he is doing to ensure that students with additional learning needs are being adequately catered for in the proposed pattern.

Hoffwn dynnu sylw hefyd at bwysigrwydd sicrhau bod anghenion dysgwyr ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn cael eu diwallu. Mewn dadleuon yn ddiweddar yr ydym wedi clywed pryderon ynghylch y ddarpariaeth addysg ôl-16 ac ôl-19. Byddai llawer o Aelodau’n cytuno y ceir diffyg o ran y ddarpariaeth honno, a bod angen ei unioni yn fuan. Os yw’r agenda hon o weddnewid am baratoi pobl ifanc o ddifrif ar gyfer yr amrywiaeth lawn o lwybrau sydd ar gael iddynt, mae’n rhaid inni weld gwelliant aruthrol yn y gefnogaeth a’r cyfleoedd dysgu a gynigir i’r myfyrwyr hynny ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. O’r herwydd, hoffwn glywed gan y Dirprwy Weinidog, yn ei ymateb, beth y mae’n ei wneud i sicrhau y ceir darpariaeth ddigonol ar gyfer myfyrwyr ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn y patrwm arfaethedig.

I would quickly like to turn to implementation timescales. The consultation document notes that the Assembly

Hoffwn droi’n gyflym at amserlenni gweithredu. Mae’r ddogfen ymgynghori’n datgan bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi

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Government has ‘set ambitious timelines’ for achieving the goal of transformation. While it is important that changes are made in a timely manner, I am concerned that post-16 providers may find themselves pushing through plans in order to meet those timescales. I urge the Deputy Minister to ensure that meeting ambitious timescales is not to the detriment of thoroughly considered and financially viable plans, as it will undoubtedly impact upon future students. Therefore, I urge Assembly Members to support our amendments this afternoon.

‘pennu amserlenni uchelgeisiol’ ar gyfer cyflawni’r nod o weddnewid. Er ei bod yn bwysig bod newidiadau’n cael eu gwneud mewn modd amserol, yr wyf yn bryderus y bydd darparwyr ôl-16, o bosibl, yn canfod eu hunain yn gwthio’r cynlluniau yn eu blaen er mwyn cwrdd â’r amserlenni hynny. Anogaf y Dirprwy Weinidog i sicrhau nad yw cwrdd ag amserlenni uchelgeisiol er anfantais cynlluniau sydd wedi’u hystyried yn drwyadl ac sy’n ddichonol yn ariannol, gan y bydd yn effeithio’n ddi-os ar fyfyrwyr y dyfodol. Anogaf Aelodau’r Cynulliad, felly, i gefnogi ein gwelliannau y prynhawn yma.

Jenny Randerson: I move the following amendments in the name of Peter Black. Amendment 5: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Peter Black. Gwelliant 5: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

acknowledges that significant capital funding is required if the transformation policy is to be pursued.

yn cydnabod bod angen cyllid cyfalaf sylweddol er mwyn gweithredu’r polisi trawsnewid.

Amendment 6: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 6: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

notes that a number of proposed implementation models are developing to suit local circumstances.

yn nodi bod nifer o fodelau gweithredu arfaethedig yn datblygu sy’n gweddu i amgylchiadau lleol.

I start by saying that we will support the Conservatives’ amendments. I wish to emphasise the complexity of this issue. We all need to bear in mind that upheaval is never popular. If you wish to close a sixth form, change the way that staff work so that they work across sites or enable students to study in several locations, it is never going to be popular. Support in principle is fine, as is talking about progress so far, but you have not yet done the difficult things, Deputy Minister. You have not got to the point at which the really difficult decisions are made about exactly which sixth forms will close and exactly which college sites may also close. These decisions are always immensely unpopular. There must be public consultation and the problem is having a meaningful public consultation, when the answers are bound to be largely negative from the public. I say this because I am a veteran of the round of sixth form closures in Cardiff in the 1980s. It is significant that Cardiff was to be divided into four; there were to be closures across

Dechreuaf drwy ddweud y byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliannau’r Ceidwadwyr. Hoffwn bwysleisio pa mor gymhleth yw’r mater hwn. Mae angen inni oll gofio nad yw newid mawr byth yn boblogaidd. Os oes arnoch eisiau cau chweched dosbarth, newid y modd y mae staff yn gweithio fel eu bod yn gweithio ar draws safleoedd neu alluogi i fyfyrwyr astudio mewn nifer o leoliadau, ni fydd fyth yn boblogaidd. Mae cefnogaeth mewn egwyddor yn iawn, ac felly hefyd sôn am y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd hyd yn hyn, ond nid ydych wedi gwneud y pethau anodd eto, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Nid ydych wedi cyrraedd y pwynt pan wneir y penderfyniadau gwirioneddol anodd ynghylch pa ddosbarthiadau chwech yn union a fydd yn cau a pha safleoedd coleg yn union a allai gau hefyd. Mae’r penderfyniadau hyn bob amser yn hynod o amhoblogaidd. Rhaid cael ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus a’r broblem yw cael ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ystyrlon, pan mae’r atebion gan y cyhoedd yn sicr o fod yn negyddol i raddau helaeth. Dywedaf

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each quarter of Cardiff, but they never got beyond the first quarter because it was too painful. I fear that this will not happen on the ground with the ease and the progress that you currently envisage.

hyn oherwydd fy mhrofiad o’r broses o gau dosbarthiadau chwech yng Nghaerdydd yn y 1980au. Mae’n arwyddocaol mai’r bwriad oedd rhannu Caerdydd yn bedair rhan; byddai dosbarthiadau chwech yn cael eu cau ledled pob chwarter o Gaerdydd, ond ni wnaethant erioed gyrraedd y tu hwnt i’r chwarter cyntaf oherwydd ei fod yn rhy boenus. Ofnaf na fydd hyn yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad gyda’r rhwyddineb a’r cynnydd yr ydych yn eu rhagweld ar hyn o bryd.

It is important that you are extremely clear about how the proposals will be evaluated, Deputy Minister. You talked about various degrees of progress, but it is important that the LEAs and the FE colleges know how their proposals will be evaluated, and they are not yet fully aware of how that will take place. I am concerned that, although we all welcome the idea that students have a bigger choice of subjects and an element of choice as to which institution they attend and so on, a lot of this co-operation will mean a great deal of trouble, especially in rural areas. It is one thing to tell organisations to work together; it is another to get that co-operation carried out in a way that is environmentally sound in this day and age. The last thing that we want is the environmental costs of large travel bills, either by staff or students and we also do not want the costs of the difficulty of travelling around.

Mae’n bwysig eich bod yn hynod o glir ynghylch sut y bydd y cynigion yn cael eu gwerthuso, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Gwnaethoch sôn am wahanol raddau o gynnydd, ond mae’n bwysig bod yr awdurdodau addysg lleol a’r colegau addysg bellach yn gwybod sut y bydd eu cynigion yn cael eu gwerthuso, ac nid ydynt yn gwbl ymwybodol eto o sut y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Yr wyf yn bryderus, er ein bod oll yn croesawu’r syniad bod gan fyfyrwyr ddewis mwy o bynciau ac elfen o ddewis ynghylch i ba sefydliad y byddant yn mynd ac ati, y bydd llawer o’r cydweithredu hwn yn golygu cryn dipyn o drafferth, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Un peth yw dweud wrth sefydliadau weithio ynghyd; peth arall yw sicrhau bod y cydweithredu hwnnw’n digwydd mewn modd amgylcheddol gall yn yr oes sydd ohoni. Y peth olaf y mae arnom ei eisiau yw costau amgylcheddol biliau teithio mawr, boed gan staff neu fyfyrwyr, ac nid oes arnom eisiau ychwaith gostau anhawster teithio o gwmpas.

That is all part of one school closing and people having to go further to their new school, once their local sixth form has closed. Our amendments refer to the cost of capital. I notice from the list that the Minister kindly supplied me with that there are significant capital costs. It is very important that those are fully assessed, that they are quantified, and that the Assembly agrees those with the LEAs and the colleges concerned. You will not get people going forward with goodwill and a positive approach if you do not agree upfront that you will be funding capital costs. There will also be revenue costs. It may be cheaper in the long run, but in the short run there will be pump-priming costs.

Mae hynny oll yn rhan o un ysgol yn cau a phobl yn gorfod teithio ymhellach i’w hysgol newydd, wedi i’w chweched dosbarth lleol gau. Mae ein gwelliannau yn cyfeirio at gost cyfalaf. Sylwaf o’r rhestr y bu’r Gweinidog yn ddigon caredig i’w rhoi imi y ceir costau cyfalaf sylweddol. Mae’n bwysig iawn bod y rheini’n cael eu hasesu’n llawn, eu bod yn cael eu mesur, a bod y Cynulliad yn cytuno ar y rheini gyda’r awdurdodau addysg lleol a’r colegau dan sylw. Ni chewch bobl yn symud ymlaen gydag ewyllys da ac agwedd gadarnhaol oni chytunwch ymlaen llaw mai chi fydd yn ariannu’r costau cyfalaf. Ceir hefyd gostau refeniw. Efallai y bydd yn rhatach yn y tymor hir, ond ceir costau sefydlu yn y tymor byr.

Minister, the list that you supplied me with Weinidog, yr oedd y rhestr y gwnaethoch ei

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also showed the huge number of variations in the implementation model between one area and another. I welcome that variation; it means that local circumstances require different solutions in different places. Finally, I would warn you that your consultation on further education governance needs to take into account the tremendous variation in what will suit a rural area in the middle of Wales, compared with our capital city or an urban area such as Wrexham in north Wales.

rhoi imi hefyd yn dangos y nifer aruthrol o amrywiadau yn y model gweithredu rhwng y naill ardal a’r llall. Croesawaf yr amrywiaeth honno; mae’n golygu bod amgylchiadau lleol yn gofyn am wahanol atebion mewn gwahanol leoedd. Yn olaf, byddwn yn eich rhybuddio bod angen i’ch ymgynghoriad ar lywodraethu addysg bellach ystyried yr amrywiaeth aruthrol o ran yr hyn a fydd yn gweddu i ardal wledig yng nghanol Cymru, o’i chymharu â’n prifddinas neu ardal drefol megis Wrecsam yn y gogledd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Could you come to your conclusion, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: A allech gloi, os gwelwch yn dda?

Jenny Randerson: The variations are endless, and the differences are enormous.

Jenny Randerson: Mae’r amrywiadau’n ddiddiwedd, ac mae’r gwahaniaethau’n aruthrol.

Christine Chapman: I welcome the transformation programme, which is ambitious. It has the potential for creating broader choice in academic and vocational learning. The important feature is that it is about raising aspirations and giving young people the opportunities to succeed. I wanted to say something quite specific about the policy, namely to do with the construction industry, which was mentioned in relation to the idea of a national construction centre. If we are to regenerate our communities, we will need an ambitious construction programme that will build high-quality houses and public buildings. We need the right people for that. Construction is one area that remains very gender-segregated. In reality, it is only drawing from one half of the talent pool. In Wales, women make up only 9 per cent of the industry’s workforce, with fewer than 1 per cent of those in craft and trade occupations. That has been an unbroken record for many years.

Christine Chapman: Croesawaf y rhaglen o weddnewid, sy’n un uchelgeisiol. Mae ganddi’r potensial i greu dewis ehangach ym maes dysgu academaidd a galwedigaethol. Y nodwedd bwysig yw ei bod yn ymwneud â chodi dyheadau a rhoi’r cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc lwyddo. Yr oedd arnaf eisiau dweud rhywbeth eithaf penodol ynglŷn â’r polisi, a hynny’n ymwneud â’r diwydiant adeiladu, a gafodd ei grybwyll yng nghyswllt y syniad o ganolfan adeiladu genedlaethol. Os ydym am adfywio ein cymunedau, bydd arnom angen rhaglen adeiladu uchelgeisiol a fydd yn adeiladu tai ac adeiladau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel. Mae arnom angen y bobl addas ar gyfer hynny. Mae adeiladu yn un maes sy’n dal wedi’i wahanu’n helaeth o ran y ddeuryw. Mewn gwirionedd, dim ond hanner y gronfa o ddoniau y mae’n manteisio arni. Yng Nghymru, dim ond 9 y cant o weithlu’r diwydiant sy’n fenywod, gyda llai nag 1 y cant o’r rheini mewn galwedigaethau crefft. Bu honno’n record na chafodd ei thorri ers blynyddoedd lawer.

Research that was recently commissioned by ConstructionSkills Wales into the recruitment and retention of women in the construction industry found that 25 per cent of respondents stated that the industry should be promoted more among women, especially at school, and through the provision of more training opportunities. On asking a group of school children in Cardiff who were aged between 14 and 16, we found that boys had a

Canfu gwaith ymchwil a gomisiynwyd yn ddiweddar gan Sgiliau Adeiladu Cymru ar recriwtio a chadw menywod yn y diwydiant adeiladu bod 25 y cant o’r rheini a ymatebodd wedi datgan y dylid hyrwyddo rhagor ar y diwydiant ymhlith menywod, yn enwedig yn yr ysgol, a drwy ddarparu rhagor o gyfleoedd hyfforddi. Wrth holi grŵp o blant ysgol rhwng 14 ac 16 oed yng Nghaerdydd, canfûm fod gan fechgyn syniad

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clear idea of what they wanted to do. Some of the boys said, ‘I want to be an electrician or get into plumbing, because some members of my family are already doing it and the money is good.’ However, the perception of the construction industry among girls was still poor. Of the girls questioned, only one mentioned a possible career in construction, which was as an architect. Those who had not considered a job in construction cited reasons related to the fact that they were girls. One girl said, ‘Because I’m a girl, I’m not strong enough, and I don’t want to wear dirty clothes.’ That is worrying, if we are trying to change the industry.

pendant ynghylch yr hyn yr oedd arnynt eisiau ei wneud. Dywedodd rhai o’r bechgyn, ‘Mae arnaf eisiau bod yn drydanwr neu fynd i weithio fel plwmwr, oherwydd mae rhai aelodau o’m teulu eisoes yn gwneud hynny ac mae’r arian yn dda.’ Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y canfyddiad o’r diwydiant adeiladu ymhlith merched yn dal i fod yn wael. O blith y merched a holwyd, dim ond un a soniodd am yrfa bosibl ym maes adeiladu, a hynny fel pensaer. Dywedodd y rheini nad oeddent wedi ystyried swydd yn y byd adeiladu resymau a oedd yn ymwneud â’r ffaith mai merched oeddent. Dywedodd un ferch, ‘Oherwydd mai merch ydw i, nid wyf yn ddigon cryf, ac nid oes arnaf eisiau gwisgo dillad brwnt.’ Mae hynny’n peri pryder, os ydym yn ceisio newid y diwydiant.

ConstructionSkills Wales concluded that some careers advisers and teachers can sometimes act as gatekeepers, preventing girls from embarking on careers within the construction industry, with many believing that women, in particular, should take up more traditional careers. It felt that there was also an attempt to protect females from entering a profession deemed to be chauvinistic and male dominated, and to spare them discrimination. I am not sure whether I agree with those comments, but that is quite a worrying perception. I am keen for the Minister to consider having discussions with Careers Wales and the teaching profession on this to see what further work could be done.

Daeth Sgiliau Adeiladu Cymru i’r casgliad y gall rhai cynghorwyr gyrfaoedd ac athrawon weithredu fel porthorion weithiau, gan rwystro merched rhag cychwyn ar yrfaoedd yn y diwydiant adeiladu, gyda llawer ohonynt yn credu y dylai menywod, yn enwedig, ddilyn gyrfaoedd mwy traddodiadol. Yr oedd yn teimlo bod ymdrech hefyd i amddiffyn benywod rhag mynd i broffesiwn y bernir ei fod yn siofinaidd a lle mae gwrywod yn goruchafu, a’u harbed rhag gwahaniaethu. Nid wyf yn siŵr a wyf yn cytuno â’r sylwadau hynny, ond mae hwnnw’n ganfyddiad sy’n peri cryn bryder. Yr wyf yn awyddus i’r Gweinidog ystyried cynnal trafodaethau gyda Gyrfa Cymru a’r proffesiwn dysgu ynglŷn â hyn i weld pa waith pellach y gellid ei wneud.

4.00 p.m.

There are some very real barriers. The former Equal Opportunities Commission stated that the industry’s long-hours culture and inflexible working hours often precluded women or those with caring responsibilities from entering construction. If the construction sector wants the best people, it must also start to put its house in order.

Ceir rhai rhwystrau gwirioneddol. Dywedodd y Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal gynt fod diwylliant oriau maith ac oriau gwaith anhyblyg y diwydiant yn aml yn atal menywod neu’r rhai hynny sydd â chyfrifoldebau gofalu rhag mynd i faes adeiladu. Os yw’r sector adeiladu’n awyddus i gael y bobl orau, rhaid iddo hefyd ddechrau rhoi trefn ar ei dŷ.

The transformation agenda has the potential to address gender stereotyping across a range of careers—not just in construction. It is something that I asked to be included in the original learning pathways document.

Gallai’r agenda weddnewid roi sylw i stereoteipio ar sail rhyw mewn nifer o wahanol yrfaoedd—nid adeiladu yn unig. Mae’n rhywbeth y gofynnais am gael ei gynnwys yn y ddogfen llwybrau dysgu

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Therefore, I urge the Deputy Minister to give further consideration to that, because this is a great opportunity to effect radical change.

wreiddiol. Felly, yr wyf yn annog y Dirprwy Weinidog i roi ystyriaeth bellach i hynny, oherwydd mae hwn yn gyfle gwych i sicrhau newid radical.

Mark Isherwood: The Welsh Government motion before us today calls for the Assembly to acknowledge ‘the significant progress made’. I consider that to be a bit of a sick joke. The Welsh Government practises the politics of the coward and bully. It is planning sixth form closures and college mergers, but refuses to admit and debate it publicly, openly and honestly. It rides roughshod over the independence granted to further education colleges in 1992, which heralded an era of widening participation until Welsh Government cuts hit home. It lit the blue touch paper and left others to take the blame when the incendiary exploded.

Mark Isherwood: Mae’r cynnig gan Lywodraeth Cymru sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn galw ar y Cynulliad i gydnabod ‘y cynnydd sylweddol a wnaethpwyd’. Teimlaf fod hynny’n dipyn o jôc. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n ymarfer gwleidyddiaeth y llwfrgi a’r bwli. Mae’n cynllunio i gau dosbarthiadau chwech ac uno colegau, ond mae’n gwrthod cyfaddef hynny a chael dadl gyhoeddus, agored a gonest. Mae’n sathru’n ddi-hid ar yr annibyniaeth a roddwyd i golegau addysg bellach yn 1992, a arweiniodd at gyfnod o gyfranogi ehangach nes i doriadau Llywodraeth Cymru ddechrau gadael eu hôl. Cynhyrfodd y dyfroedd a gadawodd i eraill gymryd y bai pan ddaeth y glec.

My own children’s needs and choices have confirmed that one-size-fits-all provision does not work in any area. Faced with the recession, the Welsh Government pledged to prioritise skills and education and to introduce efficiencies rather than front-line cuts, knowing all along that front-line cuts were already happening. Instead of declaring that and debating it publicly, it passed the buck when job losses were announced and courses cut. One lecturer facing redundancy at Yale College in Wrexham told me that it is a travesty for further education, particularly for those colleges that have had severe future breaking constraints imposed on previously promised funding, and exposes communities to the alter ego of unemployed and unoccupied youth.

Mae anghenion a dewisiadau fy mhlant fy hun wedi cadarnhau nad yw darpariaeth un-maint-i-bawb yn gweithio mewn unrhyw faes. Gyda’r dirwasgiad o’i blaen, addawodd Llywodraeth Cymru roi blaenoriaeth i sgiliau ac addysg a chyflwyno arbedion effeithlonrwydd yn hytrach na thoriadau rheng flaen, a hithau’n gwybod o’r cychwyn bod toriadau rheng flaen yn cael eu gwneud yn barod. Yn hytrach na datgan hynny a chael dadl gyhoeddus ar y mater, trosglwyddodd y baich i rywun arall pan gyhoeddwyd y byddai swyddi a chyrsiau’n cael eu colli. Dywedodd un darlithydd yng Ngholeg Iâl yn Wrecsam sy’n wynebu cael ei ddiswyddo wrthyf fod hyn yn warth ar y sector addysg bellach, yn enwedig y colegau hynny lle mae cyfyngiadau difrifol wedi’u gosod ar arian a oedd wedi’i addo eisoes, gan adael cymunedau ar drugaredd alter ego pobl ifanc heb waith na dim byd arall i’w wneud.

Colleges such as Yale College are being forced to cut jobs and courses because the Welsh Government instructed them to do one thing and then changed the rules. Unions told me only this weekend that the situation is desperate. The number of students in Welsh further education colleges has fallen more than 10 per cent over the last three years. At the same time, the number of work-based learning programmes, inside and outside of further education colleges, has decreased. We

Mae colegau megis Coleg Iâl yn cael eu gorfodi i ddileu swyddi a chyrsiau gan fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi cyfarwyddyd iddynt wneud un peth ac wedi newid y rheolau wedyn. Dywedodd yr undebau wrthyf y penwythnos diwethaf fod y sefyllfa’n argyfyngus. Mae nifer y myfyrwyr mewn colegau addysg bellach yng Nghymru wedi gostwng dros 10 y cant yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf. Ar yr un pryd, mae nifer y rhaglenni dysgu seiliedig ar waith, mewn

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are in this mess because the Welsh Government has cut funding in real terms year on year.

colegau addysg ac mewn sefydliadau eraill, wedi lleihau. Yr ydym yn y sefyllfa drychinebus hon gan fod Llywodraeth Cymru mewn gwirionedd wedi cwtogi cyllid y naill flwyddyn ar ôl y llall.

The Association of Teachers and Lecturers states, concerning this transformation policy, that there is still uncertainty and confusion on the ground. It said that the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills has not been clear about how it has evaluated the proposals it has received from local education authorities and that the Welsh Government needs to refocus and make its intentions clear. It still has concerns that the choice of institution will be limited for some post-16 students, with some having no option other than tertiary provision through the FE college. It is concerned that excessive travel demands could make some students more likely not to be in education, employment or training and that the policy does not take sufficient account of rurality. The amount of funding is also a grave concern.

Yn ôl Cymdeithas yr Athrawon a’r Darlithwyr mae ansicrwydd a dryswch ar lawr gwlad o hyd ynglŷn â’r polisi trawsnewid hwn. Dywedodd y Gymdeithas nad yw’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau wedi mynegi’n glir sut y mae wedi gwerthuso’r cynigion y mae wedi’u cael gan awdurdodau addysg lleol a bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru ganolbwyntio o’r newydd a dynodi ei bwriadau’n glir. Mae’n dal i bryderu mai ychydig o ddewis o sefydliadau fydd ar gael i rai myfyrwyr ôl-16, ac mai’r unig ddewis a fydd gan rai fydd darpariaeth drydyddol drwy’r coleg addysg bellach. Mae’n pryderu y gallai gofynion teithio gormodol wneud rhai myfyrwyr yn fwy tebygol o beidio â bod mewn addysg, cyflogaeth neu hyfforddiant ac nad yw’r polisi’n rhoi digon o ystyriaeth i ardaloedd gwledig. Mae swm y cyllid hefyd yn peri cryn bryder.

That follows the February press release that was issued jointly by teaching unions after the Welsh Government announced 7.43 per cent cuts to sixth-form and FE college budgets. As they said, such a cut will accelerate the economic downturn and make the downturn in Wales much worse. The Association of School and College Lecturers Cymru said that one has to wonder whether this is a covert way of compelling local authorities to close sixth forms. It went on to say that if the Welsh Government’s aim is the closure of sixth forms in Wales, it should have the conviction to state this publicly rather than seeking to achieve its ends by depriving schools of the resources required to deliver a high standard of education for 16 to 19-year-olds.

Mae hynny’n dilyn y datganiad i’r wasg a gyhoeddwyd ar y cyd gan undebau athrawon ym mis Chwefror ar ôl i Lywodraeth Cymru gyhoeddi toriadau o 7.43 y cant yng nghyllidebau dosbarthiadau chwech a cholegau addysg bellach. Fel y dywedasant, bydd cwtogiad o’r fath yn cyflymu’r dirywiad economaidd ac yn gwneud y dirywiad yng Nghymru’n llawer gwaeth. Dywedodd Cymdeithas Arweinwyr Ysgolion a Cholegau Cymru bod hyn yn gwneud i rywun amau ai ffordd ddirgel o orfodi awdurdodau lleol i gau dosbarthiadau chwech yw hyn. Aeth ymlaen i ddweud os mai nod Llywodraeth Cymru yw cau dosbarthiadau chwech yng Nghymru, y dylai gael yr argyhoeddiad i ddatgan hyn yn gyhoeddus yn hytrach cheisio cyflawni ei hamcanion drwy amddifadu ysgolion o’r adnoddau y mae eu hangen er mwyn darparu addysg o safon uchel i bobl ifanc 16 i 19 oed.

One north Wales headteacher told me that post-14 education was a shambles and that there was no evidence that collaboration was raising standards, that it was becoming increasingly bureaucratic and that there is

Dywedodd un pennaeth o’r gogledd wrthyf fod addysg ôl-14 yn draed moch ac nad oedd unrhyw dystiolaeth bod cydweithredu’n codi safonau, ei bod yn mynd yn fwyfwy biwrocratig a bod gwastraff sylweddol yn y

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significant wastage in funding delegated to 14 to 19 partnerships. He added that schools, as well as colleges, now face cuts in staff and courses. Another north Wales headteacher told me that the Welsh Government has politicised education and pursued disjointed policy making, that it rarely referred to standards in the classroom, what makes a good teacher and a good learner, and how we share good practice between schools. That headteacher, whose school had received an excellent Estyn report despite a high level of free school meals take-up, added that the transforming schools agenda would increase the number of young people not in education, employment or training. He said that if these vulnerable young people have to go to school or college elsewhere, they will not go and that the Welsh Government does not understand that it will be the children who wish to go to his school rather than to an FE college who will suffer.

cyllid sy’n cael ei ddirprwyo i bartneriaethau 14 i 19. Ychwanegodd fod ysgolion, yn ogystal â cholegau, yn wynebu toriadau o ran staff a chyrsiau erbyn hyn. Dywedodd pennaeth arall o’r gogledd wrthyf fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwleidyddoli addysg ac yn dilyn dull di-drefn o lunio polisïau, ac mai’n anaml y cyfeiriai at safonau yn yr ystafell ddosbarth, beth sy’n gwneud athro neu athrawes dda a dysgwr da, a sut yr ydym yn rhannu arferion da rhwng ysgolion. Ychwanegodd y pennaeth hwnnw, yr oedd ei ysgol wedi cael adroddiad rhagorol gan Estyn er bod nifer fawr o’r disgyblion yn cael prydau ysgol am ddim, y byddai’r agenda trawsnewid ysgolion yn cynyddu nifer y bobl ifanc nad ydynt mewn addysg, cyflogaeth neu hyfforddiant. Yn ôl y pennaeth, os bydd yn rhaid i’r bobl ifanc hyn sy’n agored i niwed fynd i ysgol neu goleg yn rhywle arall, ni fyddant yn mynd. Dywedodd nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n deall mai’r plant sy’n dymuno mynd i’w ysgol ef yn hytrach nag i goleg addysg bellach fydd yn dioddef.

The 2003 lost children of Wales report found that young people and Welsh business were looking for a transformation in 14-19 education that would focus on the development of leadership, teamwork, communication and creativity. This research found that we must remove the wall between work and what is taught in school and that the curriculum should be taught in a work-related context. The report concluded that the 14-19 agenda was not being addressed by the Welsh Government. Perhaps, therefore, we should not be surprised that the previous Minister for education buried this report rather than acting on its evidence.

Canfu adroddiad plant coll Cymru 2003 fod pobl ifanc a busnesau Cymru yn chwilio am weddnewidiad mewn addysg 14-19 a fyddai’n canolbwyntio ar ddatblygu arweiniad, gwaith tîm, cyfathrebu a chreadigrwydd. Canfu’r gwaith ymchwil hwn fod yn rhaid inni chwalu’r mur sydd rhwng gwaith a’r hyn sy’n cael ei ddysgu yn yr ysgol ac y dylai’r cwricwlwm gael ei ddysgu mewn cyd-destun sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith. Daeth yr adroddiad i’r casgliad nad oedd Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi sylw i’r agenda 14-19. Efallai, felly, nad yw’n syndod bod y Gweinidog blaenorol dros addysg wedi claddu’r adroddiad hwn yn hytrach na gweithredu ar sail ei dystiolaeth.

We must champion the life chances of all young people by building on solid foundations, developing education with the developing child.

Rhaid inni hybu cyfleoedd bywyd pob unigolyn ifanc drwy adeiladu ar sylfeini cadarn, gan ddatblygu addysg gyda’r plentyn sy’n datblygu.

Nerys Evans: Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am roi’r diweddaraf ar y polisi hwn. Mae’r egwyddorion y tu ôl i’r polisi, sef ehangu dewis, cael gwared ar ddyblygiad a datblygu rhwydweithiau i wella profiad myfyrwyr, i’w croesawu’n fawr. Canolbwyntiaf ar dair sialens i’r Llywodraeth o ran sicrhau

Nerys Evans: I thank the Deputy Minister for updating us on this policy. The principles on which the policy is based—extending choice, removing duplication and developing networks in order to improve student experiences—are to be warmly welcomed. I will concentrate on three challenges facing

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llwyddiant y polisi: y sialens benodol i Gymru wledig, sialensiau ieithyddol i sicrhau darpariaeth ddigonol o addysg Gymraeg, a sialensiau cyllidol.

the Government in securing the success of this policy: the specific challenge in rural Wales, linguistic challenges in securing adequate Welsh-medium provision, and budgetary challenges.

Mae her fawr yn wynebu Llywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol o ran darparu addysg ôl-16 yng Nghymru wledig. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Dirprwy Weinidog yn derbyn yr egwyddor nad oes modd cael yr un model addysgiadol drwy Gymru gyfan—mae’n glir o’r modelau yn y polisi hwn bod hynny wedi’i dderbyn—a bod angen gwahaniaethau lleol a modelau mewn ardaloedd gwledig sydd yn wahanol i’r rhai mewn ardaloedd trefol a dinesig. Felly, bydd y goblygiadau ariannol yn amrywio o ardal i ardal.

Providing post-16 education in rural Wales will be a big challenge for the Welsh Government and for local authorities. I was pleased that the Deputy Minister accepted the principle that it will not be possible to have the same educational model in all parts of Wales—it is clear from the models outlined in the policy that that has been accepted—and that different models will be required in rural areas compared with urban areas. Therefore, financial implications will vary from area to area.

Mae’r polisi trawsnewid hwn hefyd yn creu her o ran sicrhau darpariaeth ddigonol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Nid oes dwywaith bod darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg yn y rhan fwyaf o golegau addysg bellach yn warthus o isel. Dim ond un coleg yng Nghymru sydd â darpariaeth ddigonol, sef Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor, a chanmolaf y coleg hwnnw am hynny. Mae’r ddarpariaeth yn siomedig o isel ym mhob coleg addysg bellach arall. Felly, mae unrhyw newid i strwythur addysg ôl-16 sydd â’r bwriad o ymestyn cydweithio rhwng colegau addysg bellach a’r ddarpariaeth chweched dosbarth yn destun pryder ar hyn o bryd, gan ei bod yn amlwg nad yw’r ddarpariaeth honno’n bodoli ar hyn o bryd yn y colegau addysg bellach. Mae’n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol, wrth lunio’u cynlluniau trawsnewid, ystyried hyn a deall pwysigrwydd addysg chweched dosbarth o ran yr elfen ieithyddol, heb sôn am yr elfennau pwysig eraill sydd ynghlwm â chadw chweched dosbarth.

This transformation policy also throws up a challenge in terms of securing adequate Welsh-medium provision. There is no doubt that Welsh-medium provision in most further education colleges is disgraceful. There is only one college in Wales with adequate provision, and that is Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor, which I commend. The provision is disappointing in all other further education colleges. Therefore, any changes to the structure of post-16 provision with the aim of increasing collaboration between further education colleges and sixth-form provision is currently a cause for concern, as it is clear that that provision does not exist at present in further education colleges. Local authorities, in forming transformation plans, must consider this and understand the importance of sixth-form education from a linguistic perspective, let alone the other important aspects of retaining school sixth forms.

Yr wyf yn gobeithio eich bod chi, fel y Dirprwy Weinidog, yn esbonio’n glir wrth awdurdodau lleol y dyhead yn eich dogfen ddrafft, sydd i’w chroesawu’n fawr, am ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg yn ôl y galw ac am ddilyniant ieithyddol. Ni allant fod yn eiriau gwag. Os mai bwriad Llywodraeth Cymru yw sicrhau dilyniant ieithyddol addysg plentyn a pherson ifanc, rhaid bod cynlluniau awdurdodau lleol yn dilyn hynny. Mae’n rhaid i ddarpariaeth addysg cyfrwng

I hope that you, as the Deputy Minister, explain clearly to local authorities the aspiration in your draft document, which is warmly welcomed, for Welsh-medium provision according to demand and for linguistic progression. These cannot be hollow words. If the Welsh Government’s aim is to secure linguistic progression in the education of children and young people, local authority plans must complement that. Welsh-medium education provision must be

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Cymraeg fod yn ganolog i’w cynlluniau. central to their plans.

Yn anffodus, nid yw hynny’n wir mewn sawl ardal ar hyn o bryd. Yn sir Gaerfyrddin, er enghraifft, mae un opsiwn yn cynnig lleihau darpariaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn ardal Dinefwr drwy uno Ysgol Gyfun Maes yr Yrfa ag Ysgol y Gwendraeth a chreu ysgol categori 2B. Ni fyddai gan y rhai sy’n derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn Ysgol Gyfun Maes yr Yrfa yn awr y cyfle i gael addysg o’r fath os yw’r opsiwn hwnnw’n cael ei dderbyn, gan fod ysgolion Cymraeg eraill y sir yn llawn. Mae ysgolion cynradd cwm Gwendraeth i gyd yn ysgolion gategori A. Mae hynny’n groes i bolisi Llywodraeth Cymru, sydd am symud darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg yn ei blaen ac am ehangu’r ddarpariaeth honno, yn hytrach na’i symud yn ôl, fel y byddai’n digwydd o dan un o opsiynau Cyngor Sir Gâr.

Unfortunately, that is not the reality in many areas at the moment. In Carmarthenshire, for example, one proposed option would lead to a reduced Welsh-medium provision in the Dinefwr area, by merging Ysgol Gyfun Maes yr Yrfa with Ysgol y Gwendraeth, creating a category 2B school. Under that proposal, those currently receiving Welsh-medium education at Ysgol Gyfun Maes yr Yrfa would not be able to receive that provision, as the county’s other Welsh-medium schools are full. All primary schools in the Gwendraeth valley are category A schools. That goes against Welsh Government policy, which aims to progress Welsh-medium education, expanding the provision, rather than take backward steps, as would happen under one of the options proposed by Carmarthenshire County Council.

Mae cyllid yn ganolog i lwyddiant unrhyw bolisi. Mae elfen o gystadleuaeth rhwng y chweched dosbarth mewn ysgolion a cholegau addysg bellach erbyn hyn, sydd yn gwyrdroi’r system yn gyfan gwbl. Mae’n rhaid gofyn cwestiynau am fformiwla gyllidol sydd yn golygu bod ysgol a choleg yn cystadlu am ddisgyblion ar sail arian. Dylai myfyrwyr gael eu recriwtio ar sail y cwrs a’r sefydliad addysg sydd orau iddynt. Mae llwyddiant polisi trawsnewid y Llywodraeth yn dibynnu ar arian digonol ond mae hefyd yn bwysig bod ein hawdurdodau lleol, wrth lunio cynlluniau trawsnewid, yn seilio’r newidiadau ar fesurau addysgiadol ac nid ar ffactorau cyllidol.

Finance is also central to the success of any policy. There is now an element of competition between school sixth forms and further education colleges, which completely distorts the system. Questions must be asked about a funding formula that leads to schools and colleges competing for pupils based on money. Students should be recruited on the basis of the best course or establishment for their education. The success of the Government’s transformation policy depends on adequate funding but it is also important that our local authorities, in forming their transformation schemes, base their changes on educational measures rather than on budgetary considerations.

Mae’r newidiadau hyn i’w croesawu ond mae gennyf bryderon, fel yr wyf wedi’u hamlinellu. Mae’n bwysig, felly, bod eich neges o ran dyheadau polisi Llywodraeth Cymru—anghenion gwahanol y Gymru wledig, ehangu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a gwneud penderfyniadau ar sail addysg, nid arian—yn cael eu trosglwyddo’n glir i’n hawdurdodau lleol wrth iddynt weithio ar eu cynlluniau er mwyn i’r polisi hwn fod yn llwyddiant.

These changes are to be welcomed, but I have concerns, as I have outlined. It is important, therefore, that your message in terms of the Welsh Government’s policy aspirations—the different needs of rural Wales, the expansion of Welsh-medium education, and decisions based on educational, rather than budgetary, considerations—are made clear to our local authorities as they work on their plans in order to secure the success of this policy.

4.10 p.m.

Trish Law: I have reservations about this policy insofar as it impacts on Blaenau

Trish Law: Mae gennyf amheuon ynglŷn â’r polisi hwn a’r modd y mae’n effeithio ar

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Gwent. Secondary school headteachers and governing bodies in my constituency are unhappy about the governance of the proposed learning campus on the site of the former Corus steelworks. Coleg Gwent has said that it will run the learning campus, but concern among secondary school headteachers has been heightened by Coleg Gwent’s current financial position, which does not look like it will improve in the foreseeable future.

Flaenau Gwent. Mae penaethiaid ysgolion uwchradd a chyrff llywodraethu yn fy etholaeth i yn anfodlon â threfniadau llywodraethu’r campws dysgu arfaethedig ar safle hen waith dur Corus. Mae Coleg Gwent wedi dweud y bydd yn rhedeg y campws dysgu, ond ychwanegwyd at y pryder ymhlith penaethiaid ysgolion uwchradd gan sefyllfa ariannol bresennol Coleg Gwent, nad yw’n edrych fel petai’n debygol o wella hyd y gellir rhagweld.

For example, if Coleg Gwent deems that there are not enough students to undertake a particular course in Ebbw Vale, it could decide to transfer those who have enrolled for that course to, say, Cross Keys. That would be too far away for most, if not all, Blaenau Gwent students. It would lead to a dumbing-down of post-16 education in Blaenau Gwent.

Er enghraifft, petai Coleg Gwent yn teimlo nad oes digon o fyfyrwyr i ymgymryd â chwrs penodol yng Nglynebwy, gallai benderfynu trosglwyddo’r rheini sydd wedi cofrestru ar gyfer y cwrs hwnnw i Crosskeys, dyweder. Byddai hynny’n rhy bell i’r rhan fwyaf o fyfyrwyr Blaenau Gwent, os nad y cyfan. Byddai’n arwain at ostwng safonau addysg ôl-16 ym Mlaenau Gwent.

I raised a question about progress on the learning campus in the Chamber on 10 June. My very good friend Mohammad Asghar asked a supplementary question based on his concern that the governance would be vested in Coleg Gwent. The Deputy Minister replied that:

Codais gwestiwn yn y Siambr ar 10 Mehefin yn ymwneud â sut y mae’r gwaith yn dod yn ei flaen ar y campws dysgu. Gofynnodd fy nghyfaill Mohammad Asghar gwestiwn atodol yn seiliedig ar ei bryder mai Coleg Gwent fyddai’n gyfrifol am lywodraethu’r campws. Atebodd y Dirprwy Weinidog drwy ddweud:

‘These proposals are being taken forward with all of the key partners involved at all stages—the Welsh Assembly Government, Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, Coleg Gwent, the University of Wales Newport and the secondary schools and their headteachers.’

‘Mae’r cynigion hyn yn cael eu datblygu, gyda’r holl bartneriaid allweddol yn gysylltiedig â phob cam—Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Blaenau Gwent, Coleg Gwent, Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd a’r ysgolion uwchradd a’u penaethiaid.’

However, this is not so. Secondary school headteachers withdrew from discussions on this issue in January 2008. Therefore, it is not true to say that all of the key partners have been involved at all stages.

Fodd bynnag, nid yw hyn yn wir. Tynnodd penaethiaid ysgolion uwchradd yn ôl o drafodaethau ar y mater hwn yn Ionawr 2008. Felly, nid yw’n wir dweud bod yr holl bartneriaid allweddol yn gysylltiedig â phob cam.

What concerns me most about the question of governance is that, if this goes ahead with Coleg Gwent in total dominance and control, then the whole of post-16 education will be taken out of the hands of Blaenau Gwent. My real concern is that post-16 education in Blaenau Gwent, instead of being strengthened through this transformation policy, will be weakened.

Yr hyn sy’n peri’r pryder mwyaf i mi ynglŷn â mater llywodraethu’r campws yw na fydd Blaenau Gwent, os bydd y cynlluniau hyn yn mynd rhagddynt a Choleg Gwent yn dod yn gwbl gyfrifol am lywodraethu a rheoli, yn gyfrifol am unrhyw addysg ôl-16. Fy mhryder gwirioneddol yw mai gwanhau addysg ôl-16 ym Mlaenau Gwent fydd y polisi trawsnewid hwn yn ei wneud, ac nid ei

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chryfhau.

Jeff Cuthbert: The transformation of education, as detailed in the 14-19 Learning Pathways, is an important part of the transformation agenda and something in which I have a particular interest. I have worked in the sector for some years and I have a keen interest in the development of progressive new measures. The collaboration agenda is certainly one of these progressive measures. The focus on the learner and revolving the educational environment around them is certainly refreshing and one that I welcome.

Jeff Cuthbert: Mae trawsnewid addysg, fel y nodir yn y Llwybrau Dysgu 14-19, yn rhan bwysig o’r agenda weddnewid ac yn rhywbeth y mae gennyf ddiddordeb penodol ynddo. Yr wyf wedi gweithio yn y sector am rai blynyddoedd ac mae gennyf gryn ddiddordeb mewn datblygu mesurau newydd blaengar. Mae’r agenda gydweithredu yn sicr yn un o’r mesurau blaengar hyn. Mae’r syniad o ganolbwyntio ar y dysgwr a chylchdroi’r amgylchedd addysgol o’i amgylch yn sicr yn un arloesol ac yr wyf yn ei groesawu.

I note from ‘Transforming Education and Training Provision: Pattern Across Wales’, that my local education authority area of Caerphilly will be operating the consortium model and I cautiously welcome the note that no extra capital will be needed. I also note that College Ystrad Mynach has submitted alternative proposals and I await the outcome of those discussions.

Sylwaf yn ôl ‘Trawsnewid y Ddarpariaeth Addysg a Hyfforddiant: Y Patrwm ledled Cymru’, y bydd fy ardal awdurdod addysg lleol i, sef Caerffili, yn gweithredu’r model consortiwm ac yr wyf yn croesawu’n ochelgar y nodyn na fydd angen cyfalaf ychwanegol. Sylwaf hefyd fod Coleg Ystrad Mynach wedi cyflwyno cynigion amgen ac edrychaf mlaen i glywed canlyniad y trafodaethau hynny.

In the current climate, it is crucial to maximise resources where possible, and I have long hoped that, if implemented properly, the collaboration agenda will bring significant benefits. The effective use of resources and reduction of duplication should not only free up resources but also create areas of excellence. However, saving money must not be the driving force. It is the extra learning opportunities that will make or break this policy.

Yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni, mae’n hanfodol cynyddu adnoddau lle bo hynny’n bosibl, ac yr wyf wedi bod yn gobeithio ers tro y bydd yr agenda gydweithredu, os bydd yn cael ei gweithredu’n briodol, yn arwain at fanteision sylweddol. Dylai defnyddio adnoddau’n effeithiol a sicrhau llai o ddyblygu gwaith ryddhau adnoddau a chreu meysydd rhagoriaeth hefyd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid sicrhau nad arbed arian yw’r ysgogydd. Y cyfleoedd dysgu ychwanegol fydd yn hybu neu ddifetha’r polisi hwn.

If the transformation agenda is developed to work well, with promising links with business and industry through bodies such as the sector skills councils, we can also ensure that learners are given the best possible chance of joining their chosen profession at a point of their learning and beyond. I welcome the fact that the Assembly Government is approaching this agenda in a flexible and incremental fashion. Only by working with education providers, be they schools, further education institutions or work-based learning providers, can we develop an education environment that is fit for the twenty-first century, and with the backing of the people

Os bydd yr agenda weddnewid yn cael ei datblygu i weithio’n dda, â chysylltiadau addawol â busnesau a diwydiannau drwy gyrff megis y cynghorau sgiliau sector, gallwn hefyd sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn cael y cyfle gorau posibl i ymuno â’r proffesiwn o’u dewis ar adeg yn ystod eu gyrfa ddysgu ac ar ôl hynny. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn mynd i’r afael â’r agenda hon mewn modd hyblyg a chynyddrannol. Dim ond drwy weithio gyda darparwyr addysg, boed yn ysgolion, yn sefydliadau addysg bellach neu’n ddarparwyr dysgu seiliedig ar waith, y gallwn ddatblygu amgylchedd addysg sy’n addas ar gyfer yr

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who will be helping deliver it. unfed ganrif ar hugain, ac â chefnogaeth y bobl a fydd yn helpu i’w darparu.

I know that there have been concerns from certain quarters, not least parents, regarding the possible travel implications of these proposals, and I urge the Assembly Government to look at innovative ways of developing teaching at various sites.

Gwn fod pryderon wedi eu mynegi gan rai grwpiau, yn enwedig rhieni, ynglŷn â goblygiadau posibl y cynigion hyn o safbwynt teithio, ac anogaf Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i edrych ar ffyrdd arloesol o ddatblygu addysgu ar wahanol safleoedd.

I recently met a very constructive forum of teachers and parents at Heolddu Comprehensive School in Bargoed, which is in my constituency, to discuss such concerns. The group talked in depth about the transformation agenda and was supportive of it. An issue that did concern the group was that surrounding travel, and I know that one suggestion that was brought forward was that of moving the teachers to the pupils, rather than vice versa, wherever that made practical sense. That was a point made in the proposed Measure that we debated and agreed some weeks ago in the Chamber. If my memory serves me correctly, it was accepted by WAG.

Yn ddiweddar, cyfarfûm â fforwm adeiladol iawn o athrawon a rhieni yn Ysgol Gyfun Heolddu ym Margoed, sydd yn fy etholaeth, i drafod pryderon o’r fath. Siaradodd y grŵp yn fanwl am yr agenda trawsnewid ac roedd yn gefnogol ohoni. Mater a oedd yn destun pryder i’r grŵp oedd hwnnw’n ymwneud â theithio, a gwn mai un awgrym a gyflwynwyd oedd symud yr athrawon at y disgyblion, yn hytrach na’r ffordd arall, lle bynnag y mae hynny’n gwneud synnwyr yn ymarferol. Yr oedd hwnnw’n bwynt a wnaethpwyd yn y Mesur arfaethedig a drafodwyd gennym ac y cytunwyd arno rai wythnosau’n ôl yn y Siambr. Os cofiaf yn iawn, fe’i derbyniwyd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad.

I believe that there is widespread support for this agenda among the profession and future learners and employers, and, where there seems to be concern, I believe that it is not meant to be negative; it is simply that people care too much about getting things right. That is one reason why we agreed to defer legal entitlement to the pathways until September 2010.

Credaf fod cefnogaeth gyffredinol i’r agenda hon ymysg y proffesiwn a dysgwyr a chyflogwyr y dyfodol, a, lle mae’n ymddangos bod pryderon, credaf nad yw hynny wedi’i olygu i fod yn negyddol; y gwir yw bod pobl yn poeni gormod am gael pethau’n iawn. Dyna un rheswm pam y cytunasom i ohirio hawl gyfreithiol i’r llwybrau tan fis Medi 2010.

Let us not forget that this process is exactly that: a process. It will be reviewed and amended as circumstances demand, but its main thrust is to provide the very best opportunities that we can provide in the twenty-first century for young people to have the best future through progressive employment.

Gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio mai proses, yn wir, yw hon. Caiff ei hadolygu a’i newid fel y bydd yn ofynnol yn ôl yr amgylchiadau, ond ei phrif nod yw darparu’r cyfleoedd gorau posibl a allwn yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain i bobl ifanc i gael y dyfodol gorau drwy gyflogaeth flaengar.

Mohammad Asghar: I welcome the chance to take part in this debate on transforming education and training provision. The Welsh Assembly Government has set a challenge for councils, colleges and other post-16 education providers to come up with proposals to transform education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds.

Mohammad Asghar: Croesawaf y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon ar weddnewid y ddarpariaeth addysg a hyfforddiant. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi gosod her i gynghorau, colegau a darparwyr addysg ôl-16 eraill i lunio cynigion i weddnewid y ddarpariaeth addysg i bobl ifanc 14 i 19 oed.

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The background thinking on this is to extend vocational learning opportunities. As the skills spokesperson for Plaid Cymru, I welcome that approach, as not everyone is cut out for an academic career. I have always spoken of the importance of the further education sector, and colleges see themselves at the forefront of our transformation agenda. They have been actively forging partnerships with schools and local learning networks and have supported the Assembly Government’s agenda of widening access. It is particularly important for them to provide opportunities for those disadvantaged socially and those who have left school with few qualifications, if any, and I am sure that they pay due regard to that. Not everyone is suited to an academic career and it is important to equip less academic students with the skills and training that they need.

Y syniadaeth gefndir i hyn yw ehangu cyfleoedd dysgu galwedigaethol. Fel llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar sgiliau, yr wyf yn croesawu gweithredu felly, gan nad yw yn gyrfa academaidd yn addas i bawb. Yr wyf wedi siarad erioed am bwysigrwydd y sector addysg bellach, ac mae’r colegau’n eu gweld eu hunain ar flaen y gad yn ein hagenda trawsnewid. Maent wedi bod wrthi’n ddiwyd yn meithrin partneriaethau gydag ysgolion a rhwydweithiau dysgu lleol ac maent wedi cefnogi agenda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ehangu mynediad. Mae’n neilltuol o bwysig iddynt ddarparu cyfleoedd i’r rheini sydd dan anfantais yn gymdeithasol a’r rheini sydd wedi gadael yr ysgol heb lawer o gymwysterau, neu ddim o gwbl, ac yr wyf yn siŵr eu bod yn talu sylw dyledus i hynny. Nid yw pawb yn addas ar gyfer gyrfa academaidd ac mae’n bwysig rhoi i’r myfyrwyr llai academaidd y sgiliau a’r hyfforddiant y mae eu hangen arnynt.

I emphasise once again the importance of having the skills necessary for the Welsh economy. The Assembly Government has pioneered the ProAct scheme to provide funding for employers facing difficulties during the recession. That excellent scheme aims to help employers to prepare for the economic recovery by retaining skilled workers who might otherwise lose their jobs, and by improving the skills of their staff who are on short-term working.

Pwysleisiaf unwaith eto bwysigrwydd cael y sgiliau sy’n angenrheidiol i economi Cymru. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi arloesi gyda chynllun ProAct i ddarparu cyllid i gyflogwyr sy’n wynebau anawsterau yn ystod y dirwasgiad. Nod y cynllun rhagorol hwnnw yw helpu cyflogwyr i baratoi ar gyfer yr adferiad economaidd drwy gadw gweithwyr medrus a fyddai fel arall efallai yn colli eu swyddi, a drwy wella sgiliau eu staff sy’n gweithio oriau byr.

Another excellent project is the Redundancy Action scheme, or ReAct, which helps people to gain new skills so that they can get back to work as soon as possible. It shows the constructive policies of the Assembly Government as it attempts to fight the economic downturn in Wales.

Prosiect rhagorol arall yw’r cynllun Gweithredu ar Ddiswyddiadau, neu ReAct, sy’n helpu pobl i fagu sgiliau newydd fel y gallant fynd yn ôl i weithio cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae’n dangos polisïau adeiladol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wrth iddi geisio ymladd y dirywiad economaidd yng Nghymru.

Among the industries hardest hit is the building industry. I had a meeting earlier today with Wyn Pritchard, the director of ConstructionSkills Wales, who has proposed a national construction college for Wales, an idea that I very much support. As my colleagues have already expressed, I am sure that the Deputy Minister will consider very seriously helping the organisation in future.

Ymysg y diwydiannau sydd wedi cael eu taro galetaf mae’r diwydiant adeiladu. Cefais gyfarfod yn gynharach heddiw gyda Wyn Pritchard, cyfarwyddwr Sgiliau Adeiladu Cymru, sydd wedi awgrymu coleg adeiladu cenedlaethol i Gymru, syniad yr wyf fi’n ei gefnogi’n fawr. Fel y mae fy nghyd-Aelodau eisoes wedi’i ddweud, yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff y Dirprwy Weinidog roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol iawn i helpu’r sefydliad yn y

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dyfodol.

The co-ordination of training across sectors is vital in addressing the skills gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom, in positioning Wales to come through the current economic downturn with a skilled workforce and an economy that can be developed, and in ensuring national parity of training and skills provision across Wales.

Mae cyd-drefnu hyfforddiant ar draws sectorau yn dyngedfennol wrth ymdrin â’r bwlch sgiliau rhwng Cymru a gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig, wrth leoli Cymru fel ei bod yn dod drwy’r dirywiad economaidd presennol gyda gweithlu medrus ac economi y mae modd ei datblygu, ac wrth sicrhau cydraddoldeb cenedlaethol o ran y ddarpariaeth hyfforddiant a sgiliau ar draws Cymru.

There is some good collaboration between further education institutions, businesses and the public sector, but ConstructionSkills supports the establishment of a national construction college site in Wales to develop that collaboration into a more formal structure of training provision and recognised, accredited programmes. Such a college would not only act as a centre of excellence, but also serve as a training hub for Wales. It could co-ordinate training and skills courses in higher and further education institutions, businesses and the public sector.  

Mae rhywfaint o gydweithio da rhwng sefydliadau addysg bellach, busnesau a’r sector cyhoeddus, ond mae Sgiliau Adeiladu o blaid sefydlu safle i goleg adeiladu cenedlaethol yng Nghymru i ddatblygu’r cydweithio hwnnw yn strwythur mwy ffurfiol o ddarpariaeth hyfforddi a rhaglenni cydnabyddedig, achrededig. Byddai coleg o’r fath nid yn unig yn gweithredu fel canolfan ragoriaeth, ond hefyd yn gwasanaethu fel canolbwynt hyfforddi i Gymru. Gallai gyd-drefnu cyrsiau hyfforddiant a sgiliau mewn sefydliadau addysg uwch a phellach, busnesau a’r sector cyhoeddus.

4.20 p.m.

The development of a national construction college for Wales would also provide the opportunity for Wales to gain greater and more effective access to a range of training developed by the sector, both within and outside Wales. Indeed, the establishment of such a facility would help to develop Wales’s position in delivering green skills. There will be more jobs for trained construction workers when the economy recovers, and such a college could play a major part in providing the training and skills needed for people to do these jobs.

Byddai datblygu coleg adeiladu cenedlaethol i Gymru hefyd yn rhoi’r cyfle i Gymru sicrhau mwy o fynediad, a mynediad mwy effeithiol, at ystod o hyfforddiant sydd wedi cael ei ddatblygu gan y sector, yng Nghymru a thu hwnt. Yn wir, byddai sefydlu cyfleuster o’r fath yn help i ddatblygu safle Cymru o ran darparu sgiliau gwyrdd. Bydd mwy o swyddi i weithwyr adeiladu hyfforddedig ar ôl i’r economi ddod at ei hun, a gallai coleg o’r fath chwarae rhan fawr yn darparu’r hyfforddiant a’r sgiliau sy’n ofynnol er mwyn i bobl wneud y swyddi hyn.

To conclude, I congratulate the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport on placing the emphasis that he does on skills and training, and on the policies that he is pursuing for the people of Wales during this difficult economic downturn.

I orffen, llongyfarchaf y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth ar roi’r pwyslais a wna ar sgiliau a hyfforddiant, ac ar y polisïau y mae’n eu dilyn ar ran pobl Cymru yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd anodd hwn.

Alun Davies: We need to keep a clear focus on the fact that the key objective of this policy is not simply to create lines on maps,

Alun Davies: Mae angen inni gadw ffocws clir ar y ffaith mai amcan allweddol y polisi hwn yw nid creu llinellau ar fapiau yn unig,

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but to drive up skill levels and to raise aspirations. The point made by my friend and colleague, Chris Chapman, was the key to this agenda. It is about raising aspirations, providing people with opportunities that simply did not exist in the past and, in turn, delivering a crucial part of the Welsh Assembly Government’s agenda of creating an economy based on highly skilled and high-quality jobs. I am proud to support this proposal this afternoon.

ond gwella lefelau sgiliau a chynyddu dyheadau. Yr oedd y pwynt a wnaethpwyd gan fy ffrind a’m cyd-Aelod, Chris Chapman, yn allweddol i’r agenda hon. Mae a wnelo â chynyddu dyheadau, darparu cyfleoedd i bobl nad oeddent yn bodoli yn y gorffennol ac, yna, rhoi rhan dyngedfennol o agenda Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar waith, sef creu economi sydd wedi’i seilio ar swyddi o ansawdd uchel, sy’n galw am sgiliau lefel uchel. Yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn y prynhawn yma.

If you look at the history of the provision of post-16 education over the past few years, you will see how the last Conservative administration in Wales made a virtue of there being no pattern. If you remember rightly, it was the Tories who took further education institutions out of the hands of local education authorities so that they could become freestanding units, able to set their own pay and conditions. How did that help the skills agenda? How did that drive forward new opportunities for people? It was done not out of a sense of duty or responsibility to people who had not opportunities before but a sense of dogma and ideology that, in some way, competition would drive up standards and that competition between public institutions would drive forward different opportunities.

Os edrychwch ar hanes y ddarpariaeth addysg ôl-16 dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, fe welwch fel y gwnaeth y weinyddiaeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf yng Nghymru rinwedd o fod heb unrhyw batrwm. Os cofiwch yn iawn, y Torïaid a aeth â sefydliadau addysg bellach o ddwylo’r awdurdodau addysg lleol fel y gallent fod yn unedau annibynnol, yn gallu pennu eu cyflogau a’u hamodau eu hunain. Sut oedd hynny’n helpu’r agenda sgiliau? Sut gwnaeth hynny yrru cyfleoedd newydd i bobl ymlaen? Ni chafodd ei wneud oherwydd ymdeimlad o ddyletswydd neu gyfrifoldeb tuag at bobl nad oeddent wedi cael cyfleoedd o’r blaen ond oherwydd ymdeimlad o ddogma ac ideoleg y byddai cystadleuaeth, mewn rhyw ffordd, yn codi safonau ac y byddai cystadleuaeth rhwng sefydliadau cyhoeddus yn gyrru cyfleoedd gwahanol ymlaen.

Mark Isherwood rose— Mark Isherwood a gododd—

Alun Davies: I will not give way to you on this occasion.

Alun Davies: Nid ildiaf ichi y tro hwn.

The reason I say that I am proud to support this proposal is because the Assembly Government has taken a different approach to driving forward the skills agenda. It wants to ensure collaboration between institutions and it sees that a national framework that will guarantee opportunities to people is the way forward. The Conservatives believed that, out of chaos, order would eventually emerge. I do not know how long it would have taken or how many people would have been dumped on the tip before that would have happened, but we are clear that we will not allow anybody to miss out on this skills agenda. The Conservative theory of chaos and competition was painful, wasteful and

Y rheswm yr wyf yn dweud fy mod yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn yw oherwydd bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi mynd ati mewn ffordd wahanol i yrru’r agenda sgiliau ymlaen. Mae am sicrhau cydweithio rhwng sefydliadau ac mae’n gweld mai fframwaith cenedlaethol a fydd yn gwarantu cyfleoedd i bobl yw’r ffordd ymlaen. O anhrefn, credai’r Ceidwadwyr y byddai trefn yn datblygu maes o law. Ni wn pa mor hir y byddai wedi’i gymryd na faint o bobl a fyddai wedi cael eu taflu ar y domen cyn y byddai hynny wedi digwydd, ond yr ydym ni’n glir na chaniatawn i unrhyw un fethu gallu manteisio ar yr agenda sgiliau hon. Yr oedd theori’r Ceidwadwyr o anhrefn a chystadleuaeth yn

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expensive. I am proud to see the Assembly Government taking a different view and ensuring that we have a coherent strategy for post-16 provision.

boenus, gwastraffus a chostus. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn edrych ar bethau’n wahanol ac yn sicrhau bod gennym strategaeth gydlynol ar gyfer darpariaeth ôl-16.

The principles of joint working, which are completely at variance with what happened under the Conservative administration, will result in a very different skills agenda emerging and the creation of opportunities that will lead to a different and higher-quality economy in this country. We have seen further education lecturers being put on the same pay structures as school teachers, and schools and colleges being asked to work together and to co-operate. Successive Assembly administrations have sought to encourage the idea of parity between academic and vocational education, almost creating a pick and mix of post-16 education and training, and ensuring that it is possible for a young person, probably for the first time, to choose to take an academic subject at a sixth form and a vocational course at a further education institution. That will ensure that individuals have the opportunity to do what is best for them in the setting that is best suited to them. The emerging pattern, based on this joint working, will ensure that all adults have opportunities to learn new skills in different settings.

Bydd egwyddorion cydweithio, sy’n gwbl groes i’r hyn a ddigwyddodd dan y weinyddiaeth Geidwadol, yn arwain at agenda sgiliau wahanol iawn ac at greu cyfleoedd a wnaiff arwain at economi wahanol, o well ansawdd, yn y wlad hon. Yr ydym wedi gweld darlithwyr addysg uwch yn cael eu rhoi ar yr un strwythurau cyflog ag athrawon ysgol, a gofyniad ar i ysgolion a cholegau weithio gyda’i gilydd a chydweithredu. Mae un weinyddiaeth ar ôl y llall yn y Cynulliad wedi ceisio annog y syniad o gydraddoldeb rhwng addysg academaidd a galwedigaethol, nes eu bod cystal â chreu addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 lle gellir dewis a chyfuno, gan sicrhau ei bod yn bosibl i unigolyn ifanc, am y tro cyntaf erioed mwy na thebyg, ddewis cymryd pwnc academaidd mewn chweched dosbarth a chwrs galwedigaethol mewn sefydliad addysg bellach. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau y caiff unigolion y cyfle i wneud yr hyn sydd orau iddynt hwy yn y sefydliad sy’n fwyaf addas iddynt. Bydd y patrwm sy’n datblygu, ar sail y cydweithio hwn, yn sicrhau bod gan bob oedolyn gyfleoedd i ddysgu sgiliau newydd mewn sefydliadau gwahanol.

I represent Mid and West Wales and appreciate that there are very real challenges in ensuring that the same opportunities are available in some of the most rural parts of the community as are available in the most urban parts. We accept and understand the challenges that are facing various local authorities and the Government in creating a national framework. I believe that the time has now come to see how we can best encourage and promote this emerging pattern.

Yr wyf yn cynrychioli Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru ac yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod heriau gwirioneddol iawn o ran sicrhau bod yr un cyfleoedd ar gael mewn rhai o’r rhannau mwyaf gwledig o’r gymuned ag sydd ar gael yn y rhannau mwyaf trefol. Yr ydym yn derbyn ac yn deall yr heriau sy’n wynebu gwahanol awdurdodau lleol a’r Llywodraeth wrth greu fframwaith cenedlaethol. Credaf fod yr amser wedi dod bellach i weld beth yw’r ffordd orau inni annog a hyrwyddo’r patrwm hwn sy’n datblygu.

I agree with the points made by my colleague, Jeff Cuthbert. We must ensure that the purpose is not to save money, but to improve and make more efficient the delivery of post-16 education and training. I am glad to see that the reorganisation will be bottom up and not top down. We are looking to make

Cytunaf â’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelod, Jeff Cuthbert. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad arbed arian yw’r pwrpas, ond gwella’r ffordd y caiff addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 eu darparu a’i gwneud yn fwy effeithlon. Yr wyf yn falch o weld y bydd yr ad-drefnu’n digwydd o’r gwaelod i fyny ac

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best practice common practice across the whole of Wales, to learn from what is already happening throughout Wales, and to ensure that we provide real support for the local authorities that create different models of delivery according to different needs and different priorities in different parts of the country. There is now a genuine will to improve post-16 provision in a way that produces a better and more efficient system of education and training.

nid o’r brig i lawr. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod yr arferion gorau yn arferion cyffredin ar draws Cymru gyfan, am ddysgu o’r hyn sy’n digwydd eisoes ledled Cymru, ac am sicrhau ein bod yn darparu cymorth gwirioneddol i’r awdurdodau lleol i greu gwahanol fodelau cyflenwi yn unol â’r anghenion gwahanol a’r blaenoriaethau gwahanol mewn rhannau gwahanol o’r wlad. Mae ewyllys wirioneddol erbyn hyn i wella’r ddarpariaeth ôl-16 mewn ffordd sy’n arwain at well system o addysg a hyfforddiant, a system fwy effeithlon.

We have an opportunity to do something very special. It is special because it is being driven by a Government that is committed to providing the best for all our people, wherever they live and whatever their ambitions.

Mae gennym gyfle i wneud rhywbeth arbennig iawn. Mae’n arbennig oherwydd mae’n cael ei yrru gan Lywodraeth sydd wedi ymrwymo i ddarparu’r gorau i bawb, lle bynnag y maent yn byw a beth bynnag fo’u huchelgais.

The Deputy Minister for Skills (John Griffiths): I thank Members for a fairly positive response generally to the transformation agenda and the developing pattern emerging across Wales. There are many issues to be considered, but there always are and we must work through them and address them effectively. I am sure that we will.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau (John Griffiths): Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am ymateb gweddol gadarnhaol yn gyffredinol i’r agenda weddnewid a’r patrwm sy’n datblygu ar draws Cymru. Mae llawer o bethau i’w hystyried, ond felly y mae hi bob amser a rhaid inni weithio drwyddynt ac ymdrin â hwy’n effeithiol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnawn hynny.

On additional learning needs, all learners’ needs must be properly considered and assessed by the learning partnerships when putting forward their proposals. That is very much our mainstreaming approach. We will ensure that those additional learning needs are properly factored into the business cases and what eventually emerges.

O ran anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, rhaid i anghenion bob dysgwr gael eu hystyried a’u hasesu’n iawn gan y partneriaethau dysgu wrth iddynt gyflwyno’u cynigion. Yr ydym yn sicr yn sefydlu hynny’n rhan o’r brif ffrwd. Byddwn yn sicrhau bod yr anghenion dysgu ychwanegol hynny’n cael eu cynnwys yn iawn yn yr achosion busnes a’r hyn a sefydlir maes o law.

There are many issues surrounding travel, particularly in rural areas. We are quite clear that environmental factors must be considered. We also want learners to spend their time learning in the classroom rather than travelling to the classroom—although I am not sure whether they can learn Welsh while travelling, which is an interesting prospect that has been raised. In general, we want to minimise travel times, we want lecturers and teachers to travel, and we want to see blended learning, using new technologies with traditional delivery. There are issues, but they can be overcome and that picture is emerging throughout Wales.

Mae llawer o faterion yn ymwneud â theithio, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Yr ydym yn hollol glir fod rhaid i ffactorau amgylcheddol gael eu hystyried. Yr ydym hefyd am i ddysgwyr dreulio’u hamser yn yr ystafell ddosbarth yn hytrach nag yn teithio i’r ystafell ddosbarth—er nad wyf yn siŵr a allant ddysgu Cymraeg wrth deithio, sy’n syniad diddorol sydd wedi cael ei godi. Yn gyffredinol, yr ydym am leihau’r amseroedd teithio i’r eithaf, yr ydym am i’r darlithwyr a’r athrawon deithio, ac yr ydym am weld dysgu cyfunol, yn defnyddio technolegau modern ynghyd â chyflwyno traddodiadol. Mae yna faterion, ond gellir eu goresgyn ac

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mae’r darlun hwnnw’n datblygu ledled Cymru.

Capital costs are important and we have made it clear that we will seek a phased approach to providing capital where that is needed. For many of the proposals, capital is not a requirement because it is about better collaboration and co-operation without new builds. Where capital is a factor—and it is an important issue—we will try to make our own resources available. Those include the resources of the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills married up with that for twenty-first century schools. We would seek to access the strategic capital investment fund, and our key partners’ own resources can be factored into the equation. We will work with our learning partners to address these issues, as with all other matters that need to be addressed.

Mae’r costau cyfalaf yn bwysig ac yr ydym wedi ei gwneud yn glir y byddwn yn ceisio darparu cyllid, lle mae angen gwneud hynny, fesul cam. Gyda llawer o’r cynigion, nid yw cyfalaf yn ofyniad oherwydd mae’n golygu gwell cydweithio a chydweithredu heb godi adeiladau newydd. Lle mae cyfalaf yn ffactor—ac mae’n fater pwysig—byddwn yn ceisio darparu ein hadnoddau ein hunain. Mae’r rheini’n cynnwys adnoddau’r Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau ynghyd â’r adnoddau ar gyfer ysgolion yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Byddem yn ceisio manteisio ar y gronfa buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, a gellir ymgorffori adnoddau ein partneriaid allweddol eu hunain yn yr hafaliad. Byddwn yn gweithio gyda’n partneriaid dysgu i roi sylw i’r materion hyn, fel y gwnawn gyda phob mater arall y mae angen rhoi sylw iddo.

On the interesting issues that Chris Chapman raised on gender and construction, much work needs to be done to change perceptions and attitudes across the board—among staff, learners, the industry, and society in general. ConstructionSkills is doing a good job in Wales. It is an effective sector skills council, and I am glad that it was mentioned by more than one Member today. Some good work has taken place, but we have to build on that.

O ran y materion diddorol a gododd Chris Chapman ynglŷn â rhywedd ac adeiladu, mae angen gwneud llawer o waith i newid canfyddiadau ac agweddau yn gyffredinol—ymysg staff, dysgwyr, y diwydiant, a chymdeithas yn gyffredinol. Mae Sgiliau Adeiladu yn gwneud gwaith da yng Nghymru. Mae’n gyngor sgiliau sector effeithiol, ac yr wyf yn falch iddo gael ei grybwyll gan fwy nag un Aelod heddiw. Mae rhywfaint o waith da wedi cael ei wneud, ond rhaid inni adeiladu ar hynny.

The careers and the world of work framework in our curriculum addresses some of these issues, and there are various projects going forward. I was pleased to come across one such project on my own patch, in Newport East, namely the Pink Ladies scheme. I was pleased to meet them in the Moorland Park Community Centre, where I heard about their programme funded by the lottery and the European social fund. It gives taster sessions to local women on construction skills and explains the work opportunities in the construction industry available to women that are not available to men. Many women, including those from ethnic minorities, prefer women to carry out building work in their homes for all manner of reasons. So, there are particular opportunities, and I think that we need to

Mae’r fframwaith gyrfaoedd a byd gwaith yn ein cwricwlwm yn ymdrin â rhai o’r materion hyn, ac mae amryw o brosiectau yn symud ymlaen. Yr oeddwn yn falch o ganfod un prosiect o’r fath yn fy ardal, yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, sef cynllun y Merched Pinc. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gwrdd â hwy yng Nghanolfan Gymunedol Moorland Park, lle clywais am eu rhaglen sy’n cael ei chyllido gan y loteri a chronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop. Mae’n rhoi sesiynau blasu sgiliau adeiladu i fenywod lleol ac yn egluro’r cyfleoedd gwaith yn y diwydiant adeiladu sydd ar gael i fenywod, nad ydynt ar gael i ddynion. Mae’n well gan lawer o fenywod, gan gynnwys y rheini o leiafrifoedd ethnig, gael menywod i wneud gwaith adeiladu yn eu cartrefi am bob math o resymau. Felly, mae cyfleoedd arbennig, a chredaf fod angen inni ystyried

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consider this, as Chris suggested, and discuss it with Careers Wales, the teaching profession and others.

hyn, fel yr awgrymodd Chris, a’i drafod â Gyrfa Cymru, y proffesiwn addysgu ac eraill.

4.30 p.m.

There is no agenda to obliterate sixth forms, as some have suggested. How they could think that, given that we allowed the transformation agenda to be driven by local circumstances, so that it is very much not a one-size-fits-all approach, is beyond me. If people looked at the evidence and at the emerging pattern, they could not for one minute think it some sort of hidden agenda.

Nid oes agenda dileu’r chweched dosbarth mewn ysgolion, fel y mae rhai wedi’i awgrymu. Mae y tu hwnt imi sut y gallent feddwl hynny, a chofio inni ganiatáu i amgylchiadau lleol sbarduno’r agenda trawsnewid, fel nad yw pawb yn cael eu trin yr un fath o gwbl. Petai pobl yn edrych ar y dystiolaeth ac ar y patrwm sy’n egino, ni allent feddwl am funud bod gennym ryw fath o agenda gudd.

Welsh-medium issues are important. We have a range of measures in place already under 14-19 learning partnership approaches, under the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure, of course, which imposes statutory duties, under the emerging fora to spread good practice, and in the form of the sabbatical schemes that are in place to ensure that more staff are available who are confident enough to teach through the medium of Welsh. We will ensure that all the business cases properly respond to demand and assess how Welsh-medium provision can be taken forward. ‘Iaith Pawb’ is important in this regard, as is the Welsh-medium education strategy.

Mae materion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn bwysig. Mae gennym amrywiaeth o fesurau ar waith eisoes yng nghyswllt y bartneriaeth dysgu 14-19 oed dan y Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru), wrth gwrs, sy’n gorfodi dyletswyddau statudol, dan y ffora sy’n cael eu ffurfio er mwyn lledaenu arferion da, ac ar ffurf y cynlluniau sabothol a sefydlwyd i sicrhau bod mwy o staff ar gael sy’n ddigon hyderus i addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Byddwn yn sicrhau bod yr holl ddadleuon busnes yn ymateb yn briodol i’r galw ac yn asesu sut y gellir bwrw ymlaen â’r ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae ‘Iaith Pawb’ yn bwysig yn y cyswllt hwn, a’r strategaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg hefyd.

The funding formula is currently being considered. We have now fully implemented the national formula for planning and funding, and we need to ensure that we review it, keep an eye on emerging issues, and ensure that it is fit for taking our agendas forward. It is also the case that the Measure drives collaboration and co-operation, and that has to be set against factors that may be seen as encouraging competition.

Mae’r fformiwla ariannu’n cael ei hystyried ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym yn awr wedi rhoi’r fformiwla genedlaethol ar waith yn llawn ar gyfer cynllunio ac ariannu, ac mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn ei hadolygu, yn cadw golwg ar faterion wrth iddynt godi, ac yn sicrhau ei bod yn addas ar gyfer bwrw ymlaen â’n hagenâu. Mae’n wir hefyd bod y Mesur yn sbarduno cydweithredu a chydweithio, ac mae’n rhaid gweld hynny yn erbyn y ffactorau y gellir ystyried eu bod yn annog cystadleuaeth.

In Blaenau Gwent, we see all the key partners seeking to engage with secondary school headteachers to drive this forward. The Heads of the Valleys university is progressing well. We are confident that we are seeing important progress in Blaenau Gwent, and it will properly deliver the step-change that we need to see. We need to

Ym Mlaenau Gwent, yr ydym yn gweld yr holl bartneriaid allweddol yn ceisio meithrin cysylltiad â phenaethiaid ysgolion uwchradd i fwrw ymlaen â hyn. Mae prifysgol Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn mynd rhagddi’n dda. Yr ydym yn hyderus ein bod yn gweld cynnydd pwysig ym Mlaenau Gwent, ac y bydd yn wir yn sicrhau’r newid mawr y mae angen inni ei

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ensure that we focus on the needs of learners and not those of institutions.

weld. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar anghenion dysgwyr, ac nid ar anghenion sefydliadau.

The pattern of provision emerging builds on existing good practice. We will support local authorities, schools and the further and higher education sectors in shaping this provision for the future. We all have this opportunity to transform post-16 education and the way in which it is delivered in Wales—we will work with providers to ensure that it happens.

Mae patrwm y ddarpariaeth sy’n egino’n adeiladu ar arferion da sydd ar waith eisoes. Byddwn yn cefnogi awdurdodau lleol, ysgolion, y sector addysg bellach a’r sector addysg uwch wrth iddynt lunio’r ddarpariaeth hon ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae’r cyfle hwn gennym i gyd i weddnewid addysg ôl-16 a’r ffordd y caiff ei darparu yng Nghymru—byddwn yn gweithio gyda darparwyr i sicrhau ei fod yn digwydd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. I therefore defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw ein bod yn derbyn gwelliant 1. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. Gohiriaf yr holl bleidleisio ar yr eitem hon felly tan yr amser pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan yr amser pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar Egwyddorion Cyffredinol y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru)

Stage 1 Debate on General Principles of the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Alun Cairns.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Alun Cairns.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.24:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.24:

agrees to the general principles of the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure. (NDM4253)

yn cytuno i egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru). (NDM4253)

I am pleased to have the opportunity to open the debate on the general principles of the proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure, which I introduced to the Assembly in March. The proposed Measure is one of the top priorities of the Welsh Assembly Government’s vision for children and young people, as set out in ‘One Wales’. It will enable us to provide support to those families and children in greatest need who, without

Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i agor y ddadl ynglŷn ag egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru), a gyflwynais i’r Cynulliad ym mis Mawrth. Y Mesur arfaethedig yw un o brif flaenoriaethau gweledigaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc, fel y’i disgrifir yn ‘Cymru’n Un’. Bydd yn ein galluogi i gynorthwyo’r teuluoedd a’r plant mwyaf anghenus hynny, teuluoedd a phlant a

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additional support, would continue to be the most disadvantaged.

fyddai, heb gymorth ychwanegol, yn dal i wynebu’r anfanteision mwyaf.

As the Stage 1 committee report identifies, this has been the most substantial proposed Measure to be introduced to the Assembly to date, and my fellow Ministers and I are grateful to Val Lloyd and the members of the legislation committee, and to colleagues on the Finance Committee and Subordinate Legislation Committee for their careful and thoughtful scrutiny of this large and complex proposed Measure. We have also been greatly encouraged by the supportive evidence provided by stakeholders during the Stage 1 committee sessions. We welcome their general support for the proposed Measure and its general principles.

Fel y mae adroddiad Cyfnod 1 y pwyllgor yn ei ddweud, dyma’r Mesur arfaethedig mwyaf sylweddol i’w gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad hyd yn hyn, ac mae fy nghyd-Weinidogion a minnau’n ddiolchgar i Val Lloyd ac i aelodau’r pwyllgor deddfwriaeth, ac i’n cyd-Aelodau ar y Pwyllgor Cyllid a’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth am graffu’n ofalus ac yn feddylgar ar y Mesur arfaethedig swmpus a chymhleth hwn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi’n calonogi’n fawr gan y dystiolaeth gefnogol a ddarparwyd gan randdeiliaid yn ystod sesiynau pwyllgor Cyfnod 1. Yr ydym yn croesawu eu cefnogaeth gyffredinol i’r Mesur arfaethedig a’i egwyddorion cyffredinol.

Against the backdrop of disappointing 2009 household below-average-income statistics, it is all the more important for us in Wales to redouble our efforts so that we can make the progress that we all wish to see in reducing our levels of child poverty. In taking an evidence-based approach, the broad aims outlined in Part 1 of the proposed Measure will address the critical factors that affect child poverty, accepting that a number of critical levers are not yet devolved to us. We will also have powers to propose modification to these broad aims. For this reason, we do not support amendment 1.

Ac ystyried ystadegau siomedig 2009 ynglŷn â nifer yr aelwydydd sydd ar incwm is na’r cyfartaledd, mae’n fwyfwy pwysig inni yng Nghymru gryfhau’n hymdrechion er mwyn inni wneud y cynnydd yr ydym i gyd am ei weld o ran gostwng lefelau tlodi plant. Wrth fynd ati ar sail tystiolaeth, bydd yr amcanion cyffredinol a ddisgrifir yn Rhan 1 y Mesur arfaethedig yn mynd i’r afael â’r ffactorau hollbwysig sy’n effeithio ar dlodi plant, a derbyn nad yw nifer o’r arfau ysgogi hollbwysig wedi’u datganoli inni eto. Bydd gennym bwerau hefyd i gynnig addasu’r amcanion cyffredinol hyn. Dyna pam nad ydym yn cefnogi gwelliant 1.

During the development of the proposed Measure, we have been working closely with the UK Government, at ministerial and official level, to ensure that the provisions in the proposed Measure and the Child Poverty Bill at Westminster complement each other. We have also worked with other devolved administrations to draw on their experience.

Wrth ddatblygu’r Mesur arfaethedig, yr ydym wedi bod yn gweithio’n glos gyda Llywodraeth y DU, ar lefel gweinidogion ac ar lefel swyddogion, er mwyn sicrhau bod darpariaethau’r Mesur arfaethedig a’r Mesur Tlodi Plant yn San Steffan yn ategu’i gilydd. Yr ydym hefyd wedi gweithio gyda gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill er mwyn elwa ar eu profiad.

I thank the committee for its broad support of the provisions in Part 1 of the proposed Measure. I fully accept that there is a need to measure our progress against the objectives that we set ourselves in the Ministers’ child poverty strategy, and for other Welsh authorities to be able to do the same. We are committed to measuring progress against child poverty targets, and we already have a number of robust arrangements in place to do

Diolchaf i’r pwyllgor am gefnogi’n gyffredinol ddarpariaethau Rhan 1 y Mesur arfaethedig. Derbyniaf yn llwyr fod angen mesur ein cynnydd ar sail yr amcanion yr ydym yn eu gosod inni’n hunain yn strategaeth y Gweinidogion ar gyfer tlodi plant, ac i awdurdodau eraill yng Nghymru allu gwneud yr un fath. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i fesur cynnydd o’i gymharu â’r targedau tlodi plant, ac mae gennym eisoes

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this for our strategy. Welsh Ministers will be held to account every three years as a result of the requirement in the proposed Measure to keep the child poverty strategy under review. I advised the legislation committee that I would be pleased to present annual updates along the lines of the measuring success data sets to the Children and Young People Committee, should it find this helpful.

nifer o drefniadau cadarn er mwyn gwneud hyn ar gyfer ein strategaeth. Bydd Gweinidogion Cymru’n cael eu dal yn atebol bob tair blynedd yn sgil y gofyniad yn y Mesur arfaethedig i gadw golwg o hyd ar y strategaeth tlodi plant. Dywedais wrth y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth y byddwn yn falch o gyflwyno diweddariadau blynyddol yn yr un modd ag y darperir setiau data i fesur llwyddiant ar gyfer y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc, petai’n teimlo bod hynny o fudd.

The voluntary sector has a crucial role in tackling child poverty, and in providing support to vulnerable children and their families. There are many instances where it is the most effective sector to engage with disadvantaged children, young people and their families. Indeed, we would not have made the progress to date were it not for the support, constructive criticism and practical assistance of third sector bodies. The child poverty solutions, which are an important part of this general approach, would not have been possible without third sector contributions. For this reason, we cannot support amendment 2 in the name of Alun Cairns.

Mae gan y sector gwirfoddol rôl hollbwysig o ran mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, ac o ran rhoi cymorth i blant agored i niwed a’u teuluoedd. Mae llawer o enghreifftiau lle mai dyna’r sector mwyaf effeithiol i feithrin cysylltiad â phlant dan anfantais, pobl ifanc a’u teuluoedd. Yn wir, ni fyddem wedi gwneud y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd hyd yn hyn oni bai am y cymorth, y feirniadaeth adeiladol a’r cymorth ymarferol gan gyrff y trydydd sector. Ni fyddai’r atebion i dlodi plant, sy’n rhan bwysig o’r ymagwedd gyffredinol hon, wedi bod yn bosibl heb gyfraniadau’r trydydd sector. Dyna pam na allwn gefnogi gwelliant 2 yn enw Alun Cairns.

There will be extensive consultation on the new child poverty strategy for Wales, and in relation to the work of the integrated family support teams. The voluntary sector will be fully involved in this process and guidance will promote the involvement of the sector at a number of levels, without there being a need for a statutory duty to consult to be included on the face of the proposed Measure.

Ymgynghorir yn eang ynglŷn â’r strategaeth tlodi plant newydd ar gyfer Cymru, ac yng nghyswllt gwaith y timau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd. Bydd y sector gwirfoddol yn ymwneud yn llawn a’r broses hon a bydd yr arweiniad yn hybu ymwneud y sector ar nifer o lefelau, heb fod angen cynnwys dyletswydd statudol i ymgynghori yn y Mesur arfaethedig.

We welcome the committee’s acknowledgement of the positive impact that Cymorth and Flying Start have had in communities across Wales. International evidence supports our approach of targeting resources to give our children the very best start in life, and to provide them with positive outcomes. This has also had an impact on the wider family and on wider communities in general. Although we target our resources, we are also helping to ensure better outcomes across communities in Wales, doing so against delivery on a broad framework of mainstream provision.

Croesawn fod y pwyllgor yn cydnabod y dylanwad da y mae Cymorth a Dechrau’n Deg wedi’i gael ar gymunedau ledled Cymru. Mae’r dystiolaeth ryngwladol yn cefnogi’n hymagwedd o dargedu adnoddau er mwyn rhoi cychwyn gorau un i blant mewn bywyd, ac i sicrhau canlyniadau cadarnhaol ar eu cyfer. Mae hyn wedi dylanwadu hefyd ar y teulu ehangach ac ar gymunedau ehangach yn gyffredinol. Er ein bod yn targedu’n hadnoddau, yr ydym yn cynorthwyo hefyd i sicrhau gwell canlyniadau ar hyd ac ar led cymunedau yng Nghymru, gan wneud hynny ochr yn ochr â darparu ar sail fframwaith eang darpariaeth y brif ffrwd.

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I am pleased that the Part 2 provisions have also been broadly welcomed by the sector. The legislation committee called for the proposed Measure to require long-absent childminders to complete an appropriate training course to ensure that their level of knowledge and expertise meets the standards in force when returning to work. I can assure colleagues that these safeguards already exist within the current regulation process.

Yr wyf yn falch fod darpariaethau Rhan 2 wedi cael croeso cyffredinol gan y sector. Galwodd y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth ar i’r Mesur arfaethedig fynnu bod gwarchodwyr plant sydd heb fod yn gwarchod plant ers tro’n cwblhau cwrs hyfforddi priodol er mwyn sicrhau bod lefel eu gwybodaeth a’u harbenigedd yn cyrraedd y safonau sydd mewn grym wrth iddynt ddychwelyd i’r gwaith. Gallaf sicrhau fy nghyd-Aelodau bod y camau diogelu ar waith eisoes yn y broses reoleiddio bresennol.

The Subordinate Legislation Committee recommended that Part 2 is not commenced until we have clarified how the proposals for fixed penalty notices will work in practice. I reassure that committee that, while the main parts of Part 2 can come into force ahead of the provisions about fixed penalties, it has always been our intention that full and detailed consultation will be undertaken in respect of fixed penalty notices before this particular element of the legislation is brought into force. It is our intention to fully consult on all significant elements of the proposed Measure, other than on the most minor and trivial of regulations.

Argymhelliad y Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth oedd na ddylid cychwyn ar Ran 2 nes inni gael eglurhad ynglŷn â sut y bydd y cynigion ar gyfer hysbysiadau cosbau penodedig yn gweithio’n ymarferol. Yr wyf am dawelu meddwl y pwyllgor, er y gall prif rannau Rhan 2 ddod i rym cyn y darpariaethau sy’n ymwneud a chosbau penodedig, ein bwriad erioed fu ymgynghori’n llawn ac yn fanwl ynglŷn â hysbysiadau cosbau penodedig cyn rhoi’r elfen benodol hon o’r ddeddfwriaeth ar waith. Ein bwriad yw ymgynghori’n llawn ynglŷn â holl elfennau pwysig y Mesur arfaethedig, ac eithrio’r rheoliadau mwyaf mân a phitw.

Our commitment to the identification of children who are at most risk and the ending of cross-generational disadvantage has been central to the committee’s inquiry. Integrated family support teams will integrate children and adult health and social services systems for very vulnerable families with highly complex needs. However, refinements will be required to address some of the gaps in the referral arrangements by placing new duties on professionals in adult services to make referrals under new thresholds for children in need. This will require a fundamental and much-needed step change to adult service culture and processes, and it will require it to be recast around the needs of the family and children to identify much earlier those children who may be at risk or in need.

Mae ein hymrwymiad i adnabod plant sy’n wynebu’r perygl mwyaf a rhoi terfyn ar anfantais ar draws y cenedlaethau wedi bod yn ganolog i ymchwiliad y pwyllgor. Bydd timau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd yn integreiddio systemau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i blant ac oedolion ar gyfer teuluoedd agored i niwed a chanddynt anghenion cymhleth iawn. Serch hynny, bydd gofyn mireinio pethau er mwyn mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r bylchau yn y trefniadau atgyfeirio drwy roi dyletswyddau newydd i weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes gwasanaethau oedolion i atgyfeirio dan drothwyon newydd ar gyfer plant mewn angen. Bydd mawr angen sicrhau newid sylweddol a sylfaenol o ran diwylliant ac o ran prosesau gwasanaethau oedolion, a bydd gofyn ad-drefnu hynny o gwmpas anghenion y teulu a’r plant er mwyn adnabod yn gynharach o lawer y plant hynny a all fod mewn perygl neu mewn angen.

The pioneer IFSTs will be at the vanguard for developing and shaping this new integrated

Bydd y timau integredig arloesol ar flaen y gad o ran datblygu a llunio’r ffordd

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way of working, and will share their knowledge, expertise and experience with non-pioneer areas, to assist them in their preparations for a smooth transition to the full roll-out of IFSTs across Wales starting in 2013-14. I am very pleased to hear that there has already been an excellent round of initial applications to be pioneer centres.

integredig newydd hon o weithio, a byddant yn rhannu eu gwybodaeth, eu harbenigedd a’u profiad gydag ardaloedd nad ydynt yn arloesi, er mwyn eu cynorthwyo i baratoi ar gyfer cyfnod pontio hwylus nes y caiff y timau eu dosbarthu’n llawn ledled Cymru gan ddechrau yn 2013-14. Yr wyf yn falch iawn o glywed bod rownd ragorol o geisiadau cychwynnol wedi bod eisoes gan rai sydd am fod yn ganolfannau arloesi.

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As is the case with any existing legislation, powers may remain dormant, or even be repealed, if there is no sound policy rationale for their continuation or if the business case does not exist for their full implementation. However, we are fully confident that IFSTs are based on strong, empirical evidence, which has been used to inform the policy development. Working with the commitment of professionals, we believe that they will make a real contribution to addressing the needs of vulnerable children and their families.

Fel sy’n wir am unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth sydd gennym eisoes, efallai na roddir y pwerau ar waith, neu efallai y cânt eu diddymu hyd yn oed, os nad oes rheswm cadarn o ran polisi iddynt barhau neu os nad oes dadl fusnes o blaid eu rhoi ar waith yn llawn. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn gwbl hyderus bod y timau integredig wedi’u seilio ar dystiolaeth gadarn, empirig, sydd wedi’i defnyddio’n sail ar gyfer datblygu’r polisi. Drwy weithio gydag ymrwymiad gweithwyr proffesiynol, credwn y gwnânt gyfraniad go iawn at fynd i’r afael ag anghenion plant agored i niwed a’u teuluoedd.

I am pleased that, throughout the scrutiny process, there has been broad support for our proposals on play. Play is a key part of children’s earliest life experiences. We support the legislation committee’s recommendation that guidance on play should emphasise the importance of local authorities’ consideration of the needs of children with disabilities when securing play opportunities. I am also happy to consider the legislation committee’s recommendation that the wording of the provisions relating to participation be aligned with the existing Welsh Assembly Government descriptions. We are considering the committee’s recommendation on inspection and enforcement of the new play and participation duties; I wrote to the committee about this in April. We will bring forward proposals as to how best to achieve the desired policy outcomes in this context in due course.

Yr wyf yn falch, drwy gydol y broses craffu, bod cefnogaeth gyffredinol wedi bod i’n cynigion ynglŷn â chwarae. Mae chwarae’n rhan allweddol o brofiadau bore oes plentyn. Yr ydym yn cefnogi argymhelliad y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth y dylai’r arweiniad ynglŷn â chwarae bwysleisio pa mor bwysig ydyw i awdurdodau lleol ystyried anghenion plant a chanddynt anableddau wrth sicrhau cyfleoedd chwarae. Yr wyf yn hapus hefyd i ystyried argymhelliad y pwyllgor deddfwriaeth y dylid cysoni geiriad y darpariaethau sy’n ymwneud â chymryd rhan â disgrifiadau presennol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn ystyried argymhelliad y pwyllgor ynglŷn ag arolygu a gorfodi’r dyletswyddau newydd o ran chwarae a chymryd rhan; ysgrifennais at y pwyllgor ynglŷn â hyn ym mis Ebrill. Byddwn yn cyflwyno cynigion maes o law ynglŷn â sut orau y mae sicrhau’r canlyniadau polisi y dymunir eu sicrhau yn y cyd-destun hwn.

In conclusion, Members and stakeholders have provided many helpful and constructive comments during Stage 1 on areas on which we will be bringing forward further

I gloi, mae Aelodau a rhanddeiliaid wedi cynnig llawer o sylwadau buddiol ac adeiladol yn ystod Cyfnod 1 ynglŷn â meysydd y byddwn yn cyflwyno cynigion

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proposals, either in the form of guidance or amendments to the proposed Measure or to the explanatory memorandum, where that has been suggested. We are also strongly committed to consulting widely on these matters. I thank Assembly colleagues, particularly committee members, for their constructive engagement and I look forward to the further consideration that will take place in this debate.

pellach yn eu cylch, naill ai ar ffurf arweiniad neu welliannau i’r Mesur arfaethedig neu i’r memorandwm esboniadol, lle mae hynny wedi’i awgrymu. Yr ydym hefyd wedi ymrwymo’n gryf i ymgynghori’n eang ynglŷn â’r materion hyn. Diolchaf i’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cynulliad, yn enwedig i aelodau’r pwyllgor, am eu cyfraniad adeiladol ac edrychaf ymlaen at y trafodaethau pellach a geir yn ystod y ddadl hon.

Jeff Cuthbert: As acting Chair of Legislation Committee No. 2, I am pleased to be able to contribute to today’s Stage 1 debate on the proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure. Before I go on to outline the work undertaken by our committee and summarise some of our conclusions and recommendations, I would like to send my best wishes and those of the committee to Val Lloyd, the permanent Chair of Legislation Committee No. 2, who is currently unable to carry out her duties as Chair due to ill health. We wish her well for a speedy recovery.

Jeff Cuthbert: A minnau’n Gadeirydd dros dro ar Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 2 , yr wyf yn falch o allu cyfrannu heddiw at ddadl Cyfnod 1 ar y Mesur arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru). Cyn imi fwrw ymlaen i sôn am waith ein pwyllgor a chrynhoi rhai o’n casgliadau a’n hargymhellion, hoffwn anfon fy nymuniadau gorau a dymuniadau’r pwyllgor at Val Lloyd, Cadeirydd parhaol Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 2, nad yw’n gallu gwneud ei dyletswyddau fel Cadeirydd ar hyn o bryd oherwydd gwaeledd. Dymunwn yn dda iddi gan obeithio y bydd yn gwella’n fuan.

I thank members of the committee for their hard work and consensual approach. I also extend the committee’s thanks to all those who gave evidence, both written and oral. Their contributions have helped to inform the conclusions and recommendations in our report. I thank the Ministers and their officials for giving evidence to us on three occasions and for providing us with additional written information. Finally, I thank our clerk, Sarah Beasley, and her staff, the Members’ research service and our legal advisers.

Diolchaf i aelodau’r pwyllgor am eu gwaith caled a’u hymagwedd gydsyniol. Estynnaf ddiolch y pwyllgor hefyd i bawb a roddodd dystiolaeth, yn ysgrifenedig ac ar lafar. Mae eu cyfraniadau wedi bod o gymorth wrth lunio’r casgliadau a’r argymhellion yn ein hadroddiad. Diolchaf i’r Gweinidogion a’u swyddogion am roi tystiolaeth inni ar dri achlysur ac am roi gwybodaeth ysgrifenedig ychwanegol inni. Yn olaf, diolchaf i’n clerc, Sarah Beasley, ac i’w staff, i wasanaeth ymchwil yr Aelodau ac i’n cynghorwyr cyfreithiol.

In undertaking our Stage 1 scrutiny, we were conscious that the proposed Measure is the most substantial to be introduced to date and the most ambitious in its scope, cutting across three ministerial portfolios. We were somewhat disappointed, therefore, with the relatively short timeframe that we had to take evidence and report, and we urge the Business Committee to take account of the breadth and significance of proposed Measures in determining timetables for future Stage 1 proceedings.

Wrth inni graffu yn ystod Cyfnod 1, yr oeddem yn sylweddoli mai’r Mesur arfaethedig yw’r un mwyaf sylweddol i’w gyflwyno hyd yn hyn a’r mwyaf uchelgeisiol o ran ei gwmpas, gan groesi tri phortffolio gweinidogol. Yr oeddem yn siomedig braidd, felly, mai cymharol ychydig o amser a oedd gennym i dderbyn tystiolaeth a chyflwyno adroddiad, a phwyswn ar y Pwyllgor Busnes i ystyried lled ac arwyddocâd y Mesurau arfaethedig wrth bennu’r amserlenni ar gyfer trafodion Cyfnod 1 yn y dyfodol.

We agree with the Ministers that there is a Cytunwn â’r Gweinidogion fod angen y

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need for this proposed Measure, a view shared by the majority of those who provided evidence to us. In reaching that view, we consider that the proposed Measure presents an opportunity to put child poverty at the top of the agenda in Wales—something that we particularly welcome. While we support the general principles of the proposed Measure and think that it provides the right framework for the delivery of its objectives, our report highlights a number of areas in which we think the legislation could be improved, either through greater clarity or by strengthening certain provisions.

Mesur arfaethedig hwn, safbwynt yr oedd mwyafrif y rheini a roddodd dystiolaeth inni yn cytuno ag ef. Wrth gyrraedd y safbwynt hwnnw, credwn fod y Mesur arfaethedig yn cynnig cyfle i roi tlodi plant ar frig yr agenda yng Nghymru—rhywbeth yr ydym yn ei groesawu’n benodol. Er ein bod yn cefnogi egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig ac yn meddwl ei fod yn cynnig y fframwaith iawn ar gyfer cyflawni’i amcanion, mae ein hadroddiad yn tynnu sylw at nifer o feysydd lle y credwn y gellid gwella’r ddeddfwriaeth, naill ai drwy fod yn fwy eglur neu drwy gryfhau darpariaethau penodol.

I will briefly outline some of our main conclusions and recommendations, looking first at Part 1 of the proposed Measure, dealing with eradicating child poverty.

Soniaf yn gryno am rai o’n prif gasgliadau a’n hargymhellion, gan edrych yn gyntaf ar Ran 1 y Mesur arfaethedig, sy’n ymwneud â dileu tlodi plant.

Section 3 requires Welsh Ministers to report every three years on their progress towards eradicating child poverty. We recognise the importance of regular reporting by Welsh Ministers, and we were satisfied with the reporting cycle provided for in the proposed Measure. However, in order to ensure that progress on the eradication of child poverty in Wales is always at the fore and that it is regularly monitored to allow any problems to be identified at the earliest stage, we recommended that the Minister produces an interim report on an annual basis, to be considered by the appropriate committee—I note your earlier comments, Minister, on this matter. I believe that that view is shared by the Children and Young People Committee.

Mae Adran 3 yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Weinidogion Cymru gyflwyno adroddiad bob tair blynedd ynglŷn â’r cynnydd y maent wedi’i wneud tuag at ddileu tlodi plant. Sylweddolwn bwysigrwydd adroddiadau rheolaidd gan Weinidogion Cymru, ac yr oeddem yn fodlon â’r cylch adrodd y darparwyd ar ei gyfer yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn sicrhau bod symud ymlaen i ddileu tlodi plant yng Nghymru bob amser yn flaenllaw ac y caiff ei fonitro’n rheolaidd i ganiatáu canfod unrhyw broblemau cyn gynted ag y bo modd, argymhellwn y dylai’r Gweinidog lunio adroddiad interim bob blwyddyn, i’w ystyried gan y pwyllgor priodol—nodaf eich sylwadau blaenorol, Weinidog, ar y mater hwn. Credaf y rhennir y farn honno gan y Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc.

In relation to the role of the voluntary sector in the drawing up and delivery of child poverty strategies under Part 1 of the proposed Measure, we were persuaded by the evidence from stakeholders that the role of the voluntary sector in Wales in contributing to the eradication of child poverty is so important that the proposed Measure should make some provision in this regard. On that basis, we recommended that the proposed Measure should place a duty on Welsh Ministers and Welsh authorities to consult with appropriate voluntary sector organisations in the preparation of their child poverty strategies under Part 1. Again, I note

Ynglŷn â rôl y sector gwirfoddol yn llunio a chyflenwi strategaethau tlodi plant dan Ran 1 o’r Mesur arfaethedig, fe’n darbwyllwyd gan y dystiolaeth gan randdeiliaid fod rôl y sector gwirfoddol yng Nghymru o ran cyfrannu at ddileu tlodi plant mor bwysig fel y dylai’r Mesur arfaethedig wneud rhyw ddarpariaeth yn hyn o beth. Ar y sail honno, argymhellwn y dylai’r Mesur arfaethedig osod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru ac awdurdodau Cymru i ymgynghori â chyrff priodol yn y sector gwirfoddol wrth baratoi eu strategaethau tlodi plant dan Ran 1. Eto, nodaf y sylwadau a wnaethoch yn hyn o beth, Weinidog.

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the comments that you made in this regard, Minister.

Regarding the targeted and area-based approach to be adopted in the delivery of Part 1 of the proposed Measure, we understand the reasons why that approach was initially adopted by the Welsh Assembly Government, and we recognise the very important work that is being undertaken in relation to the Flying Start and Cymorth programmes, and the positive impact that they have had on the communities to which they apply. Nevertheless, we had some concerns about the ability of the proposed Measure to enable the 2020 target of eradicating child poverty in Wales to be achieved if there is continuing reliance on the geographically targeted approach that is taken by these schemes.

Ynglŷn â’r dull targedu ardaloedd a fabwysiedir ar gyfer cyflenwi Rhan 1 o’r Mesur arfaethedig, yr ydym yn deall y rhesymau pam y mabwysiadwyd y dull hwnnw ar y dechrau gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, ac yn cydnabod y gwaith pwysig iawn sy’n cael ei wneud mewn perthynas â’r rhaglenni Dechrau’n Deg a Chymorth, a’r effaith gadarnhaol y maent wedi’i chael ar y cymunedau y maent yn berthnasol iddynt. Serch hynny, yr oedd gennym bryderon ynghylch gallu’r Mesur arfaethedig i alluogi cyflawni’r targed o ddileu tlodi plant yng Nghymru erbyn 2020 os parheir i ddibynnu ar y dull targedu daearyddol a ddefnyddir gan y cynlluniau hyn.

On balance, it is our view that, while the geographical targeting of services is not a perfect system, in the absence of unlimited resources it is the best system currently available for supporting the most disadvantaged children and their families. We would, however, urge the Minister to consider the weight of evidence that we have received on this matter and to take all possible steps to maximise the funding available to the relevant authorities, to support all children living in poverty, not just those living within Cymorth and Flying Start areas.

Rhwng popeth, ein barn ni yw, er nad yw targedu gwasanaethau’n ddaearyddol yn system berffaith, yn absenoldeb adnoddau di-ben-draw dyma’r system orau sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd i gynorthwyo’r plant mwyaf difreintiedig a’u teuluoedd. Fodd bynnag, hoffem annog y Gweinidog i ystyried y trwch o dystiolaeth yr ydym wedi’i dderbyn ar y mater hwn ac i gymryd pob cam posibl i sicrhau bod yr arian mwyaf posibl ar gael i’r awdurdodau perthnasol, i gynnal pob plentyn sy’n byw mewn tlodi, nid dim ond y rhai sy’n byw o fewn ardaloedd Cymorth a Dechrau’n Deg.

Turning to Part 2 of the proposed Measure, in relation to section 26 and the suspension of a registered child minder from the profession for a lengthy period of time, while we welcome the Minister’s commitment to consult widely on this part of the proposed Measure, we are conscious that section 26 does not make provision for an appropriate training course to be undertaken by a person prior to their returning to the profession after a period of suspended registration. We felt strongly that, in the event of a person returning to child minding where they had been absent from the profession for a considerable period of time, they should, as a minimum requirement of their registration, be required to attend and complete satisfactorily an appropriate training course to ensure that their level of knowledge and

A throi at Ran 2 y Mesur arfaethedig, yng nghyswllt adran 26 ac atal gwarchodwr plant cofrestredig o’r proffesiwn am gyfnod maith, er y croesawn ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i ymgynghori’n eang ar y rhan hon o’r Mesur arfaethedig, yr ydym yn ymwybodol nad yw adran 26 yn cynnwys darpariaeth i gwrs hyfforddi priodol gael ei ddilyn gan rywun cyn y caiff ddychwelyd i’r proffesiwn wedi cyfnod o atal cofrestriad. Teimlem yn gryf, lle byddai rhywun yn dychwelyd i waith gwarchod plant ar ôl bod yn absennol o’r proffesiwn am gyfnod sylweddol, y dylai, fel gofyniad lleiaf cofrestriad, orfod mynychu a chwblhau’n foddhaol gwrs hyfforddi priodol er mwyn sicrhau bod lefel ei wybodaeth ac arbenigedd yn cyrraedd y safonau sydd mewn grym. Anogwn y Gweinidog i ystyried gwneud darpariaeth o’r fath.

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expertise meets the standards in force. We urge the Minister to give consideration to making such provision.

In relation to section 39, which provides for fixed penalty notices to be issued by Welsh Ministers in response to certain offences, we note the Minister’s intention that only offences that are minor or technical in nature would be provided for by fixed penalty notices. We welcome the Minister’s commitment to consult extensively in making regulations under this section.

Ynglŷn ag adran 39, sy’n darparu ar gyfer cyhoeddi hysbysiadau cosb benodedig gan Weinidogion Cymru mewn ymateb i rai troseddau penodol, nodwn fwriad y Gweinidog mai dim ond ar gyfer troseddau mân neu dechnegol eu natur y rhoddid hysbysiadau cosb benodedig. Croesawn ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i ymgynghori’n helaeth wrth wneud rheoliadau dan yr adran hon.

In relation to Part 3, which provides for integrated family support teams, we trust that the Minister will work closely with relevant stakeholders in the evaluation of those schemes and in any wider roll-out of them, and we accepted the argument that, should the pioneer schemes prove to be unsuccessful, the relevant parts of the proposed Measure would remain dormant or be repealed, as appropriate.

Ynglŷn â Rhan 3, sy’n darparu ar gyfer timau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd, hyderwn y bydd y Gweinidog yn cydweithio’n agos gyda rhanddeiliaid perthnasol i werthuso’r cynlluniau hynny ac mewn unrhyw gynllun i’w cyflwyno’n ehangach, a derbyniasom y ddadl, pe profai’r cynlluniau arloesi’n aflwyddiannus, y byddai rhannau perthnasol y Mesur arfaethedig yn aros ynghwsg neu’n cael eu diddymu, fel y bo’n briodol.

With regard to the role of the voluntary sector in the establishment of IFSTs and IFS boards, we feel that the proposed Measure would be strengthened by the inclusion of provision for the involvement of the voluntary sector in relation to the work of IFSTs and the establishment of IFS boards. We recommend that the Minister gives consideration to that.

Ynglŷn â rôl y sector gwirfoddol yn sefydlu timau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd a byrddau cymorth integredig i deuluoedd, teimlwn y byddai’r Mesur arfaethedig yn gryfach pe cynhwysid darpariaeth ar gyfer cynnwys y sector gwirfoddol yng nghyswllt gwaith y timau integredig a sefydlu’r byrddau. Argymhellwn y dylai’r Gweinidog ystyried hynny.

In relation to the role that GPs, schools and the police could play in identifying children at risk of harm, we noted the Minister’s argument that these professional bodies already have a responsibility to identify and support children who may be at risk.

Ynglŷn â’r rôl y gallai meddygon teulu, ysgolion a’r heddlu ei chwarae i nodi plant sydd mewn perygl o ddioddef niwed, nodasom ddadl y Gweinidog fod gan y cyrff proffesiynol hyn gyfrifoldeb eisoes i nodi a chynnal plant a all fod mewn perygl.

4.50 p.m.

However, we were persuaded by the evidence from stakeholders that the role these organisations play in such early identification is vital. On this basis, we believe that the Minister should give further consideration to making specific reference to this in section 50.

Fodd bynnag, fe’n darbwyllwyd gan y dystiolaeth gan randdeiliaid fod y rôl a chwaraea’r cyrff hyn mewn nodi cynnar o’r fath yn hollbwysig. Ar y sail hon, credwn y dylai’r Gweinidog roi ystyriaeth bellach i gyfeirio’n benodol at hyn yn adran 50.

I will now move to the conclusions. With regard to the financial implications of the

Symudaf yn awr at y casgliadau. Ynglŷn â goblygiadau ariannol y Mesur arfaethedig, yr

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proposed Measure, the evidence from stakeholders was clear that resources are key in the delivery of the provisions within the proposed Measure. We note the views of a number of stakeholders who suggested that more resources does not necessarily mean new money and we, therefore, encourage the Minister to look at ways of maximising existing resources. In the longer term, considering the weight of the evidence that we received and the 2020 target, we urge the Minister to give early consideration to the question of future resources.

oedd y dystiolaeth gan randdeiliaid yn glir fod adnoddau’n allweddol ar gyfer cyflenwi’r darpariaethau o fewn y Mesur arfaethedig. Nodwn sylwadau nifer o randdeiliaid a awgrymodd nad yw mwy o adnoddau o reidrwydd yn golygu arian newydd ac, felly, anogwn y Gweinidog i edrych ar ffyrdd o wneud y mwyaf o’r adnoddau sydd ar gael. Yn y tymor hwy, ac ystyried pwysau’r dystiolaeth a dderbyniasom a’r targed 2020, anogwn y Gweinidog i roi ystyriaeth gynnar i gwestiwn adnoddau i’r dyfodol.

Finally, one of the themes that emerged from our evidence taking was the need for good quality and timely guidance to accompany the implementation of the proposed Measure. We agree with this and recommend that it be developed in consultation with key stakeholders. In the event that the Assembly gives its agreement today to the general principles of the proposed Measure, I hope that the Minister will accept the conclusions and recommendations contained in our report and consider bringing forward appropriate amendments at Stage 2.

Yn olaf, un o’r themâu a gododd o’r dystiolaeth a gasglwyd gennym oedd yr angen am arweiniad amserol o ansawdd da i gyd-fynd â gweithredu’r Mesur arfaethedig. Cytunwn â hyn ac argymhellwn y dylid ei ddatblygu mewn ymgynghoriad â rhanddeiliaid allweddol. Os cytuna’r Cynulliad heddiw ag egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig, gobeithiaf y derbynia’r Gweinidog y casgliadau a’r argymhellion a geir yn ein hadroddiad ac yr ystyria gyflwyno gwelliannau priodol yng Ngham 2.

Angela Burns: As the Chair of the Finance Committee, I am pleased to outline the recommendations of our report. This is a complex proposed Measure, which aims to create, for the first time, a coherent legislative framework on child poverty that covers all public agencies in Wales. Many of the proposals would involve bringing together existing provisions and, for authorities that are already in compliance with existing requirements, there would be very few direct costs. Where these proposals do lead to costs, they are relatively small and are unlikely to have any significant impact on other budgets or programmes.

Angela Burns: Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, mae’n bleser gennyf amlinellu argymhellion ein hadroddiad. Mesur arfaethedig cymhleth yw hwn, a’i nod yw creu, am y tro cyntaf, fframwaith deddfwriaethol cydlynol ar dlodi plant a fydd yn cynnwys pob asiantaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Byddai llawer o’r cynigion yn golygu dod â darpariaethau presennol at ei gilydd, ac, i awdurdodau sydd eisoes yn cydymffurfio â’r gofynion presennol, ychydig iawn o gostau uniongyrchol a geid. Lle mae’r cynigion hyn yn arwain at gostau, maent yn gymharol fach ac yn annhebygol o gael unrhyw effaith arwyddocaol ar gyllidebau neu raglenni eraill.

However, the proposed Measure is wider than this and also provides for some new initiatives such as the introduction of integrated family support teams and the appointment of family social work standards officers. These will involve additional costs, which could be significant. As they are new initiatives, it will not be possible for the Government to prepare reliable estimates of these until further work has been done to

Fodd bynnag, mae’r Mesur arfaethedig yn lletach na hyn ac yn darparu hefyd ar gyfer rhai mentrau newydd fel cyflwyno timau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd a phenodi swyddogion safonau gwaith cymdeithasol teuluol. Bydd y rhain yn golygu costau ychwanegol, a allai fod yn sylweddol. Gan mai mentrau newydd ydynt, ni fydd yn bosibl i’r Llywodraeth baratoi amcangyfrifon dibynadwy o’r rhain nes bydd gwaith pellach

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develop the evidence base further. The committee has sought to examine what information is available on the costs and the Minister has provided further evidence to support his estimates where this is possible. The Finance Committee is grateful for this additional information and reassured that, where it is possible to provide estimates, these appear reasonable.

wedi’i wneud i ddatblygu’r sail dystiolaeth ymhellach. Mae’r pwyllgor wedi ceisio archwilio hynny o wybodaeth sydd ar gael am y costau ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi darparu mwy o dystiolaeth i ategu ei amcangyfrifon lle mae hyn yn bosibl. Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyllid yn ddiolchgar am yr wybodaeth ychwanegol hon ac yn dawel ei feddwl, lle mae modd darparu amcangyfrifon, fod y rhain yn ymddangos yn rhesymol.

Nonetheless there are still many unknowns and the committee noted that, in many ways, some elements of the proposed Measure are no more than indications of approaches. This, in turn, means it is difficult to assess the likely implementation of the proposed Measure and, particularly, its longer term financial implications. This is particularly relevant in the current economic and fiscal climate. However, subject to these observations, the committee has concluded that there is no reason on financial grounds to object to the proposed Measure being approved.

Serch hynny, mae llawer o ffactorau anhysbys o hyd, a dywedodd y pwyllgor nad yw rhai elfennau o’r Mesur, mewn llawer ffordd, yn ddim mwy nag arwyddion o’r ffordd yr eir ati. Mae hyn, yn ei dro, yn golygu ei bod yn anodd asesu gweithrediad tebygol y Mesur arfaethedig ac, yn enwedig, ei oblygiadau ariannol yn y tymor hwy. Mae hyn yn arbennig o berthnasol yn yr hinsawdd economaidd ac ariannol sydd ohoni. Fodd bynnag, yn amodol ar y sylwadau hyn, mae’r pwyllgor wedi dod i’r casgliad nad oes dim rheswm ar sail ariannol dros wrthwynebu cymeradwyo’r Mesur arfaethedig.

Janet Ryder: Having looked at the proposed Measure, the Subordinate Legislation Committee has made a number of recommendations, some of which the Minister has already made reference to today. We have made four recommendations, which cover the duty to consult when making regulation powers under this legislation, the impact of the Child Poverty Bill on this proposed Measure, the impact that Part 2 of the proposed Measure will have on the field of care standards and the regulations under section 60, which we feel should be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Janet Ryder: Wedi edrych ar y Mesur arfaethedig, mae’r Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth wedi gwneud nifer o argymhellion, ac mae’r Gweinidog eisoes wedi cyfeirio at rai ohonynt heddiw. Yr ydym wedi gwneud pedwar argymhelliad, sy’n ymdrin â’r ddyletswydd i ymgynghori wrth lunio pwerau rheoliadol dan y ddeddfwriaeth hon, effaith y Mesur Tlodi Plant ar y Mesur arfaethedig hwn, yr effaith a gaiff Rhan 2 o’r Mesur arfaethedig ar faes safonau gofal a’r rheoliadau dan adran 60, a ddylai yn ein barn ni fod yn amodol ar y weithdrefn gadarnhaol.

On the basis of the evidence received, the committee is content with the procedures proposed for the making of subordinate legislation, subject to the exception relating to section 60. With regard to a duty to consult, the committee was concerned with the consultation process when making regulations. While the committee recognises that there is no statutory duty to consult, it noted that a duty may be conferred in specific instances. Craies on Legislation states that:

Ar sail y dystiolaeth a dderbyniwyd, mae’r pwyllgor yn fodlon ar y gweithdrefnau a gynigir ar gyfer llunio is-ddeddfwriaeth, yn amodol ar yr eithriad ynglŷn ag adran 60. O ran dyletswydd i ymgynghori, yr oedd y pwyllgor yn bryderus ynghylch y broses ymgynghori pan wneir rheoliadau. Er bod y pwyllgor yn sylweddoli nad oes dyletswydd statudol i ymgynghori, nododd y gellir gosod dyletswydd mewn enghreifftiau penodol. Dywed Craies on Legislation:

‘It is common for the Minister in whom a Mae’n gyffredin i’r Gweinidog y breiniwyd

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power to make delegated legislation is vested to be under a statutory duty to consult before he exercises it. Failure to consult will generally render voidable any purported exercise of the delegated power. While a duty to consult falls far short of a duty to comply with the wishes of the consultee, it is also more than a pure formality, requiring the person consulting to give his mind in a genuine way to matters raised by those consulted.’

grym ynddo i lunio deddfwriaeth ddirprwyedig fod dan ddyletswydd statudol i ymgynghori cyn ei arfer. Yn gyffredinol bydd methiant i ymgynghori’n golygu y gall unrhyw arferiad honedig o’r grym dirprwyedig gael ei ddirymu. Tra bydd dyletswydd i ymgynghori’n syrthio’n fyr o bell ffordd o ddyletswydd i gydymffurfio â dymuniadau’r sawl yr ymgynghorir ag ef, mae hefyd yn fwy na ffurfioldeb pur, ac yn gofyn i’r sawl sy’n ymgynghori roi ei feddwl mewn ffordd ddiffuant i faterion a godir gan y rhai yr ymgynghorir â hwy.

Therefore, the committee recommended that a duty to consult should be added to the proposed Measure. To ensure that minor technical amendments can be made without the consultation, the committee further recommends that appropriate exceptions be identified, and we note what the Minister has said today regarding consultation.

Felly, argymhellodd y pwyllgor y dylid ychwanegu dyletswydd i ymgynghori at y Mesur arfaethedig. Er mwyn sicrhau y gellir gwneud mân addasiadau technegol heb yr ymgynghori, argymhella’r pwyllgor ymhellach y dylid enwi eithriadau priodol, a nodwn yr hyn y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddweud heddiw ynglŷn ag ymgynghori.

The Child Poverty Bill has now been introduced to Parliament and only last week we debated the legislative consent memorandum in Plenary. I voiced on behalf of the committee some of the concerns regarding certain areas. We recommend that clarification be provided in respect of the impact of the Child Poverty Bill on this proposed Measure, either by way of an addendum to the explanatory memorandum or another readily available publication.

Mae’r Mesur Tlodi Plant erbyn hyn wedi’i gyflwyno gerbron y Senedd a dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf cawsom ddadl ar y memorandwm cydsyniad deddfwriaethol yn y cyfarfod Llawn. Lleisiais ar ran y pwyllgor rai o’r pryderon ynghylch rhai meysydd arbennig. Argymhellwn y dylid darparu eglurhad ynghylch effaith y Mesur Tlodi Plant ar y Mesur arfaethedig hwn, un ai ar ffurf atodiad i’r memorandwm esboniadol neu gyhoeddiad arall a fydd ar gael yn rhwydd.

In taking evidence and deliberating on that evidence, we looked at the impact that Part 2 may have on the field of care standards, particularly in relation to childminding and day care for children. The committee is given to understand that a system of fixed penalty notices is to be introduced in respect of establishments regulated under the Care Standards Act 2000 and, again, the Minister has made reference to that. The committee recommends that the relevant sections of Part 2 of the proposed Measure are not commenced until it is clarified how the proposals would work in the field of care standards. We received evidence from magistrates that this will be taken out of their domain and operated by care standards organisations. Concerns were raised and it was said that offences should be tracked to

Wrth gymryd tystiolaeth ac ystyried y dystiolaeth honno, edrychasom ar yr effaith y gall Rhan 2 ei chael ar faes safonau gofal, yn enwedig yng nghyswllt gwarchod plant a gofal dydd i blant. Mae’r pwyllgor yn cael ar ddeall y bwriedir cyflwyno system o hysbysiadau cosb benodedig ar gyfer sefydliadau a reoleiddir dan Ddeddf Safonau Gofal 2000 ac, eto, mae’r Gweinidog wedi cyfeirio at hynny. Mae’r Pwyllgor yn argymell na chychwynnir ar yr adrannau perthnasol o Ran 2 o’r Mesur arfaethedig nes byddir wedi egluro sut y byddai’r cynigion yn gweithio ym maes safonau gofal. Cawsom dystiolaeth gan ynadon y caiff hyn ei dynnu allan o’u gofal hwy a’i weithredu gan gyrff safonau gofal. Codwyd pryderon a dywedwyd y dylid olrhain troseddau i amlygu unrhyw aildroseddu pan ddigwydd

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highlight any repeat offences when that happens. I welcome the reference that the Minister made to that.

hynny. Croesawaf y cyfeiriad a wnaeth y Gweinidog at hynny.

The committee is content with the provisions outlined in Part 3 relating to integrated family support teams. We recommend that the regulations made under section 60 should be subject to the affirmative procedure. We consider that regulations made under section 60, which is on the power to make regulations about the assessments that local authorities must carry out on the sufficiency of play opportunities in their area, would effectively set out the substantive detail of the duty, and that, therefore, those regulations should be subject to the affirmative procedure. We thank the Minister for being mindful of those recommendations.

Mae’r pwyllgor yn fodlon ar y darpariaethau a amlinellir yn Rhan 3 ynglŷn â thimau integredig cymorth i deuluoedd. Argymhellwn y dylai’r rheoliadau a wneir dan adran 60 fod yn amodol ar y weithdrefn gadarnhaol. Ystyriwn y byddai rheoliadau a wneir dan adran 60, sy’n ymwneud â’r grym i lunio rheoliadau am yr asesiadau y mae’n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol eu gwneud ar ddigonolrwydd cyfleon chwarae yn eu hardal, i bob pwrpas yn amlinellu manylion sylwedd y ddyletswydd, ac, felly, y dylai’r rheoliadau hynny fod yn amodol ar y weithdrefn gadarnhaol. Diolchwn i’r Gweinidog am fod yn ystyriol o’r argymhellion hynny.

Mark Isherwood: I move the following amendments in the name of Alun Cairns. Amendment 1: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Mark Isherwood: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Alun Cairns. Gwelliant 1: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

regrets that the Measure has failed to adequately address all the causes of child poverty, including fuel poverty, poor housing, addiction, family breakdown and worklessness.

yn gresynu bod y Mesur wedi methu â mynd i’r afael yn ddigonol â holl achosion tlodi plant, gan gynnwys tlodi tanwydd, tai gwael, llwyrddibyniaeth, teuluoedd yn chwalu a diweithdra.

Amendment 2: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

regrets the failure of the Measure to acknowledge the lead role which can be played by the third sector in addressing the causes of child poverty.

yn gresynu wrth fethiant y Mesur i gydnabod y rôl arweiniol y gall y trydydd sector ei chwarae o ran mynd i’r afael ag achosion tlodi plant.

The percentage of children living in child poverty is higher in Wales than in any other UK nation. UK Government figures show a 3 per cent increase in average poverty risk levels in Wales over the last three years. In Wales, 32 per cent of children now live in poverty, which equates to 192,000 children living in a home that has less than 60 per cent of the median UK household income.

Mae’r ganran o blant sy’n byw mewn tlodi plant yn uwch yng Nghymru nag mewn unrhyw wlad arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Dengys ffigurau Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig gynnydd o 3 y cant yng nghyfartaledd lefelau risg tlodi yng Nghymru dros y tair blynedd diwethaf. Yng Nghymru, mae 32 y cant o blant bellach yn byw mewn tlodi, sydd yn golygu bod 192,000 o blant yn byw mewn cartref sydd â llai na 60 y cant o ganolrif incwm cartrefi’r Deyrnas Unedig.

As this month’s Joseph Rowntree Foundation report, ‘Monitoring Poverty and Social Exclusion in Wales 2009’, found, even before the recession, half the previous improvement

Fel y canfu adroddiad Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree’r mis hwn, ‘Monitro Tlodi ac Eithrio Cymdeithasol yng Nghymru 2009’, hyd yn oed cyn y dirwasgiad, yr oedd hanner

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in child poverty had already been lost. Further, worryingly, half of the unemployed in Wales are now under 25. Therefore, pledges to halve child poverty in Wales by 2010 now look somewhat ambitious. We need greater action to help vulnerable children and to tackle child poverty. We welcome the aims of this proposed Measure, but we believe that the Welsh Government has considered child poverty in isolation in several areas, and that it sometimes fails to see the wider causes.

y gwelliant blaenorol mewn tlodi plant eisoes wedi’i golli. At hynny, i beri pryder, mae hanner y di-waith yng Nghymru bellach dan 25. Felly, mae addewidion i haneru tlodi plant yng Nghymru erbyn 2010 yn edrych braidd yn uchelgeisiol erbyn hyn. Mae angen mwy o weithredu i helpu plant bregus ac i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant. Croesawn amcanion y Mesur arfaethedig hwn, ond credwn fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ystyried tlodi plant fel pwnc ar wahân mewn nifer o ardaloedd, a’i bod weithiau’n methu gweld yr achosion ehangach.

As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s latest report on child poverty in Wales states, no single policy can achieve the target. I therefore move amendment 1, which regrets that the proposed Measure has failed to adequately address all the causes of child poverty, including fuel poverty, poor housing, addiction, family breakdown and worklessness.

Fel y dywed adroddiad diweddaraf Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree ar dlodi plant yng Nghymru, ni all dim un polisi unigol gyflawni’r targed. Felly cynigiaf welliant 1, sy’n gresynu bod y Mesur arfaethedig wedi methu mynd i’r afael yn ddigonol â holl achosion tlodi plant, gan gynnwys tlodi tanwydd, tai gwael, llwyrddibyniaeth, teuluoedd yn chwalu a diweithdra.

Around 60 per cent of children in poverty live in a household where no-one works, 42 per cent live in a household headed by one adult, 40 per cent of children with a disabled parent are in poverty, compared with 25 per cent of those with non-disabled parents, and thousands care for parents with addiction problems. As Joseph Rowntree states, despite the importance of employment in eradicating child poverty, welfare-to-work programmes have not been a prominent feature of the child poverty strategy in Wales. The rate of unemployment in Wales is the highest in the UK, with 543,000 working-aged people in Wales not in work.

Mae oddeutu 60 y cant o blant mewn tlodi’n byw ar aelwyd lle nad oes neb yn gweithio, mae 42 y cant yn byw ar aelwyd ag un oedolyn yn ben arni, mae 40 y cant o blant â rhiant anabl mewn tlodi, o’i gymharu â 25 y cant o blant â rhieni heb anabledd, ac mae miloedd yn gofalu am rieni â phroblemau llwyrddibyniaeth. Fel y dywed Joseph Rowntree, er gwaethaf pwysigrwydd cyflogaeth i ddileu tlodi plant, nid yw rhaglenni “o fudd-dal i waith” wedi bod yn nodwedd amlwg yn y strategaeth tlodi plant yng Nghymru. Mae’r gyfradd ddiweithdra yng Nghymru yr uchaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig, gyda 543,000 o bobl oed gweithio yng Nghymru allan o waith.

In ‘What is Needed to End Child Poverty in 2020?’, Hirsch argues that the area of improving routes into work requires a new drive if child poverty is to be eradicated. We need to remove the barriers to flexible and good-quality employment, namely employment that provides family-friendly working in the public and private sectors, support benefit advice and take-up for all vulnerable groups, and work with the UK Government to remove barriers, including those related to housing benefit, in the tax and benefit system.

Yn ‘Beth y mae ei Angen i roi Terfyn ar Dlodi Plant yng Nghymru?’, dadleua Hirsch fod angen ymgyrch newydd ym maes gwella llwybrau i mewn i waith os am ddileu tlodi plant. Mae angen symud y rhwystrau i gyflogaeth hyblyg o ansawdd da, hynny yw, cyflogaeth sy’n cynnig gwaith ystyriol o deuluoedd yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat, cefnogi cyngor a chyfle i gael budd-daliadau i bob grŵp bregus, a gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i dynnu rhwystrau, gan gynnwys rhai cysylltiedig â budd-dal tai, yn y system drethi a budd-daliadau.

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5.00 p.m.

Measures to eradicate child poverty must adequately address the energy and housing needs of families with children. National Energy Action Cymru estimates that 320,000 Welsh households are living in fuel poverty. The number has increased since the Welsh Government made its original commitment to eradicating fuel poverty in 2003, when around 130,000 households were fuel poor.

Mae’n rhaid i Fesurau i ddileu tlodi plant fynd i’r afael yn ddigonol ag anghenion ynni a thai teuluoedd â phlant. Mae National Energy Action Cymru yn amcangyfrif bod 320,000 o aelwydydd yng Nghymru’n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd. Mae’r nifer wedi cynyddu ers i Lywodraeth Cymru wneud ei hymrwymiad gwreiddiol i ddileu tlodi tanwydd yn 2003, pan oedd tua 130,000 o aelwydydd yn dlawd o ran tanwydd.

As I highlighted last week, the consequences of living in cold, damp homes are devastating. It increases the risk of common ailments such as colds and flu, respiratory infections such as bronchitis, and vulnerability to allergies and asthma, which is a rapidly growing problem among young people and children in particular. Living with fuel poverty causes excessive stress for children and adults and can lead to long-term depression and anxiety.

Fel y pwysleisiais yr wythnos diwethaf, mae canlyniadau byw mewn cartrefi oer, llaith yn ofnadwy. Mae’n cynyddu risg anhwylderau cyffredin fel anwydau a ffliw, heintiau resbiradol fel broncitis, ac yn gwneud pobl yn fwy agored i alergeddau ac asthma, sef problem sydd ar gynnydd cyflym ymhlith pobl ifanc a phlant yn arbennig. Mae byw gyda thlodi tanwydd yn achosi straen gormodol i blant ac oedolion a gall arwain at iselder a phryder tymor hir.

Therefore, the Welsh Government must fully utilise all relevant policy and legislation so that fuel poverty is tackled. It must ensure that measures to eradicate child poverty adequately address the energy needs of families and children.

Mae’n rhaid felly i Lywodraeth Cymru ddefnyddio’n llawn bob polisi a deddfwriaeth berthnasol er mwyn mynd i’r afael â thlodi tanwydd. Mae’n rhaid iddi sicrhau bod mesurau i ddileu tlodi plant yn mynd i’r afael yn ddigonol ag anghenion ynni teuluoedd a phlant.

However, to date, there has, regrettably, been little recognition of the links between both agendas. The Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure must ensure that tackling fuel poverty among vulnerable families is included within national policies for eradicating child poverty, with local government playing an active role in delivery.

Fodd bynnag, hyd yma, yn anffodus, ychydig iawn o gydnabod y cysylltiadau rhwng y ddwy agenda a fu. Mae’n rhaid i’r Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru) sicrhau bod mynd i’r afael â thlodi tanwydd ymhlith teuluoedd agored i niwed yn cael ei gynnwys mewn polisïau cenedlaethol i ddileu tlodi plant, a bod llywodraeth leol yn chwarae rhan weithgar wrth gyflawni hyn.

Action on improving energy efficiency must be joined up to action on other social and economic problems. Tackling child poverty cannot be done by Government alone. Hence amendment 2, which

Mae’n rhaid i gamau i ddefnyddio ynni’n fwy effeithlon fod yn gysylltiedig â chamau ar broblemau cymdeithasol ac economaidd eraill. Ni all y Llywodraeth fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant ar ei phen ei hun. Gan hynny welliant 2, sy’n

‘regrets the failure of the Measure to acknowledge the lead role which can be played by the third sector in addressing the

‘gresynu wrth fethiant y Mesur i gydnabod y rôl arweiniol y gall y trydydd sector ei chwarae o ran mynd i’r afael ag achosion

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causes of child poverty’. tlodi plant.’

Simply procuring appropriate services from voluntary and independent organisations is not enough. If we are to support the delivery of services to vulnerable children and families with complex needs, we need to allow public and voluntary sector organisations to participate directly in tackling child poverty. In developing strategy, the Welsh Government and local government must also consult with voluntary and independent organisations as equal partners. As the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has said, we need a stronger Government partnership with voluntary organisations to support people back into the workplace. It adds that

Nid yw caffael gwasanaethau priodol gan fudiadau gwirfoddol ac annibynnol yn ddigon. Er mwyn cefnogi cyflenwi gwasanaethau i blant a theuluoedd agored i niwed ag anghenion cymhleth, mae angen inni ganiatáu i sefydliadau’r sector cyhoeddus a mudiadau’r sector gwirfoddol gyfranogi’n uniongyrchol mewn mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant. Wrth ddatblygu strategaeth, mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol ymgynghori hefyd â mudiadau gwirfoddol ac annibynnol fel partneriaid cyfartal. Fel mae Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru wedi dweud, mae angen arnom bartneriaeth Lywodraeth gryfach â mudiadau gwirfoddol i gefnogi pobl yn ôl i’r gweithle. Mae’n ychwanegu bod

‘voluntary organisations are very often best placed to work with economically inactive groups’.

‘mudiadau gwirfoddol yn aml yn y sefyllfa orau i weithio gyda grwpiau economaidd anweithgar’.

However, all of this will require an end to stop-go voluntary sector funding.

Fodd bynnag, bydd hyn oll yn mynnu rhoi pen ar gyllid sector gwirfoddol stop-mynd.

Jenny Randerson: I will preface my remarks by commenting on the concern expressed in committee that we had little time to do justice to this complex proposed Measure. It is by far the longest and most complex proposed Measure that we have had to deal with thus far. We were set an impossible task and had to cut some corners in the process. We could not go into the depth that many of us would have liked to have gone into in order to consult fully on this proposed Measure. The main concern was that some organisations did not have time to respond in the timescale set.

Jenny Randerson: Cyn rhoi fy sylwadau, soniaf am y pryder a fynegwyd yn y pwyllgor nad oedd gennym lawer o amser i wneud cyfiawnder â’r Mesur arfaethedig cymhleth hwn. Dyma’r Mesur arfaethedig hiraf a chymhlethaf o bell ffordd y bu’n rhaid inni ymdrin ag ef hyd yn hyn. Gosodwyd inni dasg amhosibl a bu’n rhaid inni dorri rhai corneli yn y broses. Ni allem fynd mor fanwl ag y buasai cynifer ohonom wedi hoffi mynd er mwyn ymgynghori’n llawn ar y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Y prif bryder oedd nad oedd gan rai mudiadau amser i ymateb yn yr amserlen a osodwyd.

This proposed Measure is really three or maybe four in one. The Welsh Liberal Democrats support the proposed Measure in principle, but with a strong warning to the Minister: it needs a great deal of tightening up if it is to work. Child poverty cannot simply be legislated against. You cannot pass a law and dismiss child poverty. Government has to fund the services properly and has to provide the correct strategies if this is to work.

Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn yn dri neu efallai’n bedwar mewn un. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n cefnogi’r Mesur arfaethedig mewn egwyddor, ond gyda rhybudd cryf i’r Gweinidog: mae angen cryn dynhau arno er mwyn iddo weithio. Ni ellid deddfu yn syml yn erbyn tlodi plant. Ni allwch dderbyn deddf ac anghofio am dlodi plant. Mae’n rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ariannu’r gwasanaethau’n briodol ac mae’n rhaid iddi ddarparu’r

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strategaethau cywir er mwyn i hyn weithio.

When we were discussing the section on broad aims in Part 1 of the proposed Measure, witnesses told us time and again that they could not comment on them, because they will work only as well as the Government strategies are written. The whole of the delivery of this proposed Measure lies in the strategies. Of course, we have no idea at this stage of what those strategies will be like or of the level of funding to support them.

Tra buom yn trafod yr adran am y nodau eang yn Rhan 1 o’r Mesur arfaethedig, dywedodd tystion wrthym droeon na allent sôn amdanynt, gan na fyddant ond yn gweithio cystal ag yr ysgrifennir strategaethau’r Llywodraeth. Y strategaethau sydd wrth wraidd yr holl broses o gyflawni’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Wrth reswm, nid oes syniad gennym ar hyn o bryd sut olwg fydd ar y strategaethau hynny na pha lefel o gyllid a fydd yn eu cefnogi.

The voluntary sector has a key role in drawing up those strategies. You cannot be sensitive to these key and complex issues if the voluntary sector is not involved. I urge the Minister, when you look at the detail of this legislation again, to bring forward an amendment that makes the role and the involvement of the voluntary sector explicit. I realise that, legally, you cannot place a duty on the voluntary sector but you can, for example, place a duty on local authorities and the national health service to consult the sector. It is essential that the voluntary sector is firmly in the loop.

Mae gan y sector gwirfoddol rôl allweddol wrth lunio’r strategaethau hynny. Ni allwch fod yn sensitif i’r materion allweddol a chymhleth hyn os na chaiff y sector gwirfoddol ei gynnwys. Yr wyf yn erfyn ar y Gweinidog, pan edrychwch ar fanylion y ddeddfwriaeth hon eto, i gyflwyno gwelliant sy’n gwneud rôl ac ymglymiad y sector gwirfoddol yn eglur. Sylweddolaf na allwch, yn gyfreithiol, roi dyletswydd ar y sector gwirfoddol ond gallwch, er enghraifft, roi dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol a’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol i ymgynghori â’r sector. Mae’n hanfodol bod y sector gwirfoddol yn cael ei gadw’n gadarn yn y drafodaeth.

I wish to refer also to the definitions of ‘child poverty’ and ‘play’. Perhaps I should have picked this up ages ago, but I was quite surprised when we got into this to discover that ‘eradicating child poverty’ does not actually mean that, it means 5 per cent, and that the Welsh Assembly Government might put a different interpretation on it. Minister, I urge you to keep to the standard UK definition of ‘eradicating child poverty’, and it is also important that it is spelt out in guidance. I also urge the Minister to standardise the definition of ‘play’, because there was a great deal of concern about different definitions of ‘play’ in different Government documents.

Hoffwn gyfeirio hefyd at y diffiniadau o ‘dlodi plant’ a ‘chwarae’. Efallai y dylwn fod wedi sôn am hyn oesoedd yn ôl, ond pan ddaethom i drafod hyn bu’n eithaf syndod imi ganfod nad yw ‘dileu tlodi plant’ yn golygu hynny mewn gwirionedd, mae’n golygu 5 y cant, ac y gallai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei ddehongli’n wahanol. Weinidog, yr wyf yn erfyn arnoch i gadw at ddiffiniad safonol y DU o ‘ddileu tlodi plant’, ac mae hefyd yn bwysig y caiff ei egluro mewn cyfarwyddyd. Yr wyf hefyd yn erfyn ar y Gweinidog i safoni’r diffiniad o ‘chwarae’, gan y bu cryn bryder am wahanol ddiffiniadau o ‘chwarae’ mewn gwahanol ddogfennau Llywodraeth.

I emphasise the fundamental importance, in the eradication of child poverty, of the provision of free childcare, which is the key to it all. The evidence of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the children’s commissioner, Children in Wales and other witnesses, was that, thus far, the provision of free childcare

O ran dileu tlodi plant, pwysleisiaf bwysigrwydd sylfaenol darparu gofal plant yn rhad ac am ddim, sef yr allwedd i’r cyfan. Yr oedd tystiolaeth Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree, y comisiynydd plant, Plant yng Nghymru a thystion eraill, yn dangos bod gofal plant rhad ac am ddim wedi’i ddarparu,

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has been operated on an area-targeted basis. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation said, most children in poverty do not live in those target areas, therefore, your strategies, although they might be a start, miss a very large proportion—the majority—of young people in childcare. There has to be a commitment to the expansion of free childcare. There is no such commitment in this proposed Measure.

hyd yn hyn, ar sail ardaloedd targed. Fel y dywedodd Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree, nid yw rhan fwyaf y plant mewn tlodi’n byw yn yr ardaloedd targed hynny, felly, mae eich strategaethau, er eu bod yn gychwyn efallai, yn colli cyfran fawr iawn—mwyafrif—o bobl ifanc mewn gofal plant. Mae’n rhaid cael ymrwymiad i ehangu gofal plant rhad ac am ddim. Nid oes dim ymrwymiad o’r fath yn y Mesur arfaethedig hwn.

Finally, a document produced by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation this month states that

Yn olaf, mae dogfen a luniwyd gan Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree y mis hwn yn nodi

‘area-based initiatives do not address the needs of poor children living outside disadvantaged areas…childcare is an area in which there must be a step-change if the child poverty target is to be met’.

nad yw mentrau seiliedig ar ardal yn mynd i’r afael ag anghenion plant tlawd sy’n byw y tu allan i ardaloedd difreintiedig … mae gofal plant yn faes lle bo’n rhaid cael newid sylweddol er mwyn cyrraedd y targed tlodi plant.

Paul Davies: I am grateful to have the opportunity to take part in this debate today, as a member of the Stage 1 committee.

Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i gael y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon heddiw, fel aelod o’r pwyllgor Cyfnod 1.

I will concentrate my contribution on the report that we produced and I also extend my best wishes to Val Lloyd and thank her for her hard work. I also take this opportunity to thank the clerk and her team for their hard work in putting together this report in such a short space of time. That leads me to my first point with regard to this report—the acting Chair and Jenny Randerson have alluded to this—and that is the time frame that we had to put this report together. As stated in the report, all Members felt disappointed with the relatively short time frame within which we had to take evidence and report, particularly given that the proposed Measure is ambitious in scope, cutting across three ministerial portfolios. It is therefore imperative, in future, when determining timetables for Stage 1 proceedings, to ensure that enough time is allocated to undertake proper and effective scrutiny.

Canolbwyntiaf fy nghyfraniad ar yr adroddiad a luniwyd gennym ac yr wyf yn rhoi fy nymuniadau gorau hefyd i Val Lloyd ac yn diolch iddi am ei gwaith caled. Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn hefyd i ddiolch i’r clerc a’i thîm am eu gwaith caled yn llunio’r adroddiad hwn mewn cyn lleied o amser. Mae hynny’n fy arwain at fy mhwynt cyntaf o ran yr adroddiad hwn—mae’r Cadeirydd dros dro a Jenny Randerson wedi crybwyll hyn—a hynny yw’r amser a gawsom i lunio’r adroddiad hwn. Fel y dywedwyd yn yr adroddiad, teimlai pob Aelod yn siomedig ynghylch yr amserlen gymharol fer y bu’n rhaid inni gael tystiolaeth ac adrodd ynddi, yn arbennig ac ystyried bod y Mesur arfaethedig yn uchelgeisiol ei gwmpas, gan dorri ar draws tri phortffolio gweinidogaethol. Mae’n hollbwysig felly, wrth bennu amserlenni ar gyfer achosion Cyfnod 1 yn y dyfodol, sicrhau y dyrennir digon o amser i graffu’n briodol ac yn effeithiol.

I welcome the general principles of the proposed Measure to eradicate child poverty, extend childminding, establish integrated family support teams, and ensure that the views of children and young people are heard. Evidence from witnesses and

Croesawaf egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig i ddileu tlodi plant, ymestyn gwarchod plant, sefydlu timau cefnogi teulu integredig, a sicrhau y clywir safbwyntiau plant a phobl ifanc. Yr oedd mwyafrif helaeth y dystiolaeth gan dystion a rhanddeiliaid yn

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stakeholders overwhelmingly supported the general aims of this proposed Measure.

llwyr gefnogi nodau cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig hwn.

Due to the broad nature of this proposed Measure, it is important that good and extensive guidance and strategies accompany it and that the guidance and strategies should be developed in close consultation with stakeholders. That is essential if this proposed Measure is to succeed.

Oherwydd natur eang y Mesur arfaethedig hwn, mae’n bwysig y daw cyfarwyddyd a strategaethau da a helaeth gydag ef ac y dylid datblygu’r cyfarwyddyd a’r strategaethau mewn ymgynghoriad agos â rhanddeiliaid. Mae hynny’n hanfodol er mwyn i’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn lwyddo.

5.10 p.m.

During our evidence gathering there were several discussions about the definitions in the proposed Measure. Some stakeholders called for a definition of ‘eradicating child poverty’. I understand those requests, but I think that, on the whole, the committee was right to recommend that that definition should not be stated on the face of the Measure, but, as Jenny said, in the explanatory memorandum. That argument also applies to including specific reference to certain vulnerable groups on the face of the proposed Measure, which would risk other vulnerable groups being left out. It is imperative that all vulnerable groups are included in this proposed Measure and the majority of witnesses agreed with that. That is why, quite rightly in my opinion, we are recommending, as a committee, that guidance to accompany that part of the proposed Measure should refer to the significance of particular vulnerable groups.

Yn ystod ein gwaith yn casglu tystiolaeth, cafwyd nifer o drafodaethau am y diffiniadau yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Yr oedd rhai rhanddeiliaid yn galw am ddiffiniad o ‘ddileu tlodi plant’. Deallaf y ceisiadau hynny, ond yr wyf yn credu, ar y cyfan, fod y pwyllgor yn gywir i argymell na ddylid nodi’r diffiniad ar flaen y Mesur ond, fel y dywedodd Jenny, yn y memorandwm esboniadol. Mae’r ddadl honno hefyd yn berthnasol i gynnwys cyfeiriad penodol at rai grwpiau agored i niwed ar flaen y Mesur arfaethedig, a fyddai’n mentro anghofio grwpiau eraill agored i niwed. Mae’n hollbwysig cynnwys pob grŵp agored i niwed yn y Mesur arfaethedig hwn ac yr oedd mwyafrif y tystion yn cytuno â hynny. Dyna pam, yn eithaf cywir yn fy marn i, ein bod yn argymell, fel pwyllgor, y dylai cyfarwyddyd i fynd gyda’r rhan honno o’r Mesur arfaethedig gyfeirio at arwyddocâd grwpiau sy’n agored iawn i niwed.

During our evidence gathering, some witnesses called for clear targets and milestones to be set out in the proposed Measure in order to meet its general aims. I fully understand those requests and setting targets will be important in order to measure whether the Assembly Government is meeting its objectives in eradicating child poverty, for example. However, because circumstances and situations change, I think that it is more appropriate for any targets or milestones to be set out in the guidance to accompany the proposed Measure. Setting them out in the body of the proposed Measure could restrict future Governments from setting more ambitious targets, if so required.

Yn ystod ein gwaith yn casglu tystiolaeth, yr oedd rhai tystion yn galw am osod targedau a cherrig milltir clir yn y Mesur arfaethedig er mwyn bodloni ei nodau cyffredinol. Deallaf y ceisiadau hynny’n llwyr a bydd yn bwysig gosod targedau er mwyn mesur a yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn bodloni ei hamcanion wrth ddileu tlodi plant, er enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, gan fod amgylchiadau a sefyllfaoedd yn newid, yr wyf yn credu ei bod yn fwy priodol gosod unrhyw dargedau neu gerrig milltir yn y cyfarwyddyd i fynd gyda’r Mesur arfaethedig. Gallai eu nodi yng nghorff y Mesur arfaethedig gyfyngu Llywodraethau yn y dyfodol rhag gosod targedau mwy uchelgeisiol, petai galw am hynny.

It was felt during our meetings that the Teimlwyd yn ystod ein cyfarfodydd fod y

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voluntary sector plays an enormous part in tackling child poverty. That is why it is recommended that the proposed Measure should place a duty on Welsh Ministers and Welsh local authorities to consult with appropriate voluntary sector organisations when preparing strategies. I urge the Welsh Assembly Government to accept that recommendation because working with voluntary groups will be essential in tackling child poverty and therefore meeting the general aims of this proposed Measure.

sector gwirfoddol yn chwarae rhan anferth yn y gwaith o fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant. Dyna pam yr argymhellir y dylai’r Mesur arfaethedig roi dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru ac awdurdodau lleol Cymru i ymgynghori â mudiadau priodol yn y sector gwirfoddol wrth baratoi strategaethau. Yr wyf yn erfyn ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i dderbyn yr argymhelliad hwnnw oherwydd bydd yn hanfodol gweithio gyda grwpiau gwirfoddol i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant ac felly bodloni nodau cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig hwn.

Funding from the Welsh Assembly Government will be crucial in meeting the general aims of this proposed Measure. That point was made to us time and again during the committee’s evidence gathering. Indeed, the Finance Committee’s report has made it clear that resources are key to meeting the general aims of this proposed Measure. I accept that this is not all about new money, but using existing resources to the maximum possible effect. However, given the aspiration of eradicating child poverty by 2020, it is essential that the Welsh Assembly Government reviews its future resources in this area.

Bydd cyllid gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n allweddol i fodloni nodau cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt hwnnw inni droeon yn ystod gwaith casglu tystiolaeth y pwyllgor. Yn wir, eglurodd adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid fod adnoddau’n allweddol i fodloni nodau cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig hwn. Derbyniaf nad yw hyn yn ymwneud yn unig ag arian newydd, ond defnyddio adnoddau presennol mor effeithiol â phosibl. Fodd bynnag, ac ystyried yr uchelgais i ddileu tlodi plant erbyn 2020, mae’n hanfodol bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n adolygu ei hadnoddau ar gyfer y dyfodol yn y maes hwn.

In my remarks today I have touched on only some of the committee’s recommendations and evidence that we took from stakeholders. However, I urge the Assembly Government to listen to all the evidence that we received from witnesses and to fully accept our recommendations.

Dim ond sôn am ychydig o argymhellion y pwyllgor a thystiolaeth a gawsom gan randdeiliaid a wneuthum yn fy sylwadau heddiw. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn erfyn ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i wrando ar yr holl dystiolaeth a gawsom gan dystion ac i dderbyn ein hargymhellion yn llawn.

Eleanor Burnham: I was not a member of the committee, but I am the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for children and young people. With other cross-party Members, I was involved in last week’s Bevan Foundation meeting, discussing the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report. The Government, quite sincerely, has spent an enormous amount of money on trying to eradicate and alleviate poverty across Wales, with some very worthy projects, and the fact that we will have to work with less money is worrying.

Eleanor Burnham: Nid oeddwn yn aelod o’r pwyllgor, ond fi yw llefarydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol dros blant a phobl ifanc. Gydag Aelodau trawsbleidiol eraill, bûm yn rhan o gyfarfod Sefydliad Bevan yr wythnos diwethaf, yn trafod adroddiad Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree. Mae’r Llywodraeth, yn eithaf diffuant, wedi gwario swm enfawr o arian ar geisio dileu a lleddfu tlodi ledled Cymru, gyda rhai prosiectau teilwng iawn, ac mae’n bryder y bydd yn rhaid inni weithio gyda llai o arian.

I was at the inaugural meeting of the Denbighshire Local Service Board a few weeks ago and it seems to me that the key

Yr oeddwn yng nghyfarfod agoriadol Bwrdd Gwasanaethau Lleol Sir Ddinbych rai wythnosau yn ôl ac mae’n debyg imi mai’r

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thing for the Government to do is to ensure that the funding gets to all of the integrated bodies and partnerships. I am particularly keen, as others have mentioned, to ensure that voluntary sector funding is secured. We all know how vital that sector is, and we all keep saying it, but it is vital to the delivery of core services relating to tackling poverty, particularly child poverty.

peth allweddol i’r Llywodraeth ei wneud yw sicrhau bod y cyllid yn cyrraedd yr holl gyrff a’r partneriaethau integredig. Yr wyf yn arbennig o awyddus, fel y mae eraill wedi sôn, i sicrhau bod cyllid sector gwirfoddol yn cael ei ddiogelu. Gwyddom oll mor hanfodol yw’r sector hwnnw, ac yr ydym i gyd yn dal i ddweud hynny, ond mae’n hanfodol o ran cyflenwi gwasanaethau craidd sy’n gysylltiedig â mynd i’r afael â thlodi, yn arbennig tlodi plant.

Targets on child poverty are admirable, but they desperately need to be backed up with resources. Targeting itself does not effect change, as we have seen, unfortunately, with the Welsh Government’s approach to setting targets in other areas, particularly health—very often, the targets lead to micromanagement and lead to problems that are greater than would have been the case had the targets not been set.

Mae targedau ar dlodi plant yn gymeradwy, ond mae angen taer iddynt gael eu cefnogi ag adnoddau. Nid yw targedu ei hun yn achosi newid, fel yr ydym wedi gweld, yn anffodus, gydag ymagwedd Llywodraeth Cymru i osod targedau mewn meysydd eraill, yn arbennig iechyd—yn aml iawn, mae’r targedau’n arwain at ficroreoli ac yn arwain at broblemau sy’n fwy nag y buasent pe na fyddai’r targedau wedi’u gosod.

There is a strong emphasis in the report on partnership working between the Government and the Westminster Government. Only the other day, in Flintshire, there was a meeting at which Welsh Government officials were trying to help businesses. It was quite scary, as one businessperson who was there was quite concerned about employees who were being put out of work because of the Inland Revenue’s intransigence. That is an integrated view of what is happening, and not just here. We must ensure that, whatever happens here, the Government at Westminster is synchronised with us. If the Government here is making moneys available to people to avoid poverty but the Inland Revenue puts pressure on people and puts them out of work thereby making more children poor, that is not an example of working in synch. These are integrated approaches, and we are not even asking for more money; we are asking for a better use of the funds available.

Ceir pwyslais cryf yn yr adroddiad ar waith partneriaeth rhwng y Llywodraeth a Llywodraeth San Steffan. Dim ond y diwrnod o’r blaen, yn sir y Fflint, yr oedd cyfarfod lle bu swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru’n ceisio helpu busnesau. Yr oedd yn eithaf brawychus, gan fod un o’r bobl fusnes a oedd yno yn poeni ychydig am gyflogeion a oedd yn cael eu rhoi allan o waith oherwydd anhyblygrwydd Cyllid y Wlad. Dyna farn integredig am yr hyn sy’n digwydd, ac nid yma yn unig. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau, ni waeth beth a ddigwydd yma, bod y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan yn gweithio ar y cyd â ni. Os yw’r Llywodraeth yma’n rhyddhau arian i bobl osgoi tlodi ond bod Cyllid y Wlad yn rhoi pwysau ar bobl ac yn eu rhoi allan o waith gan wneud mwy o blant yn dlawd felly, nid yw hynny’n enghraifft o weithio ar y cyd. Ymagweddau integredig yw’r rhain, ac nid ydym yn gofyn am fwy o arian hyd yn oed; gofyn ydym am ddefnyddio’r cyllid sydd ar gael yn well.

The integrated family support teams are a fantastic idea. I was talking to the chief of police in north-east Wales the other day about this. The police have an important role to play in this, as regards integrated positioning and ensuring the better use of money. The Government should ensure that money is available for such initiatives and

Mae’r timau cefnogi teulu integredig yn syniad gwych. Yr oeddwn yn siarad â phennaeth yr heddlu yn y gogledd-ddwyrain y diwrnod o’r blaen am hyn. Mae gan yr heddlu rôl bwysig i’w chwarae yn hyn, o ran cymryd safle integredig a sicrhau bod arian yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n well. Dylai’r Llywodraeth sicrhau bod arian ar gael ar

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that it is properly targeted. I am not convinced about targeting wards, as has happened over the last few years, because many wards are mixed, which leads to missing many individuals who may be outside a given ward. That is my message and I hope that the Government will listen.

gyfer mentrau o’r fath a’i fod yn cael ei dargedu’n briodol. Nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig am dargedu wardiau, fel sydd wedi digwydd dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, gan fod llawer o wardiau’n gymysg, sy’n arwain at golli llawer o unigolion a allai fod y tu allan i ward arbennig. Dyna fy neges i a gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth yn gwrando.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate. I thank Val Lloyd and wish her good health and a swift recovery. I also thank Jeff, who has stepped into the breach, Janet for her contribution as Chair of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, and Angela as Chair of the Finance Committee. We are grateful that such a high-quality report has been produced within such narrow time constraints, as many colleagues have said.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Diolchaf i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl hon. Diolchaf i Val Lloyd a dymunaf iechyd da a gwellhad buan iddi. Diolchaf hefyd i Jeff, sydd wedi camu i’r adwy, Janet am ei chyfraniad yn Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth, ac Angela yn Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar fod adroddiad mor raenus wedi’i lunio mewn rhwystrau amser mor gul, fel y dywedodd llawer o gyd-aelodau.

I will try to pick up a few points that I did not cover in my earlier remarks. I wish to clarify the situation on the affirmative and negative procedures in relation to any regulations passed under section 60. I do not know whether Janet said in her comments that we had agreed unconditionally to subject the regulations passed under section 60 to the affirmative procedure. We are not in a position to give that assurance at the moment, but we are in listening mode. Our view is that section 60 gives the key headline rights in this area, but, given the detailed nature of regulations, they are probably more appropriate for the negative procedure. However, you should bear in mind that, even if we go down the route of the negative procedure, there will still be consultation on that, including explanatory memoranda and impact assessments.

Ceisiaf sôn am ambell bwynt na wneuthum roi sylw iddynt yn fy sylwadau cynharach. Hoffwn egluro’r sefyllfa ar y gweithdrefnau cadarnhaol a negyddol yng nghyswllt unrhyw reoliadau a dderbynnir dan adran 60. Ni wn a ddywedodd Janet yn ei sylwadau ein bod wedi cytuno’n ddiamod i wneud y rheoliadau a dderbynnir dan adran 60 yn destun y weithdrefn gadarnhaol. Nid ydym mewn sefyllfa i roi’r sicrhad hwnnw ar hyn o bryd, ond yr ydym yn gwrando. Ein barn yw bod adran 60 yn rhoi’r prif hawliau allweddol yn y maes hwn, ond, ac ystyried natur fanwl rheoliadau, eu bod yn fwy na thebyg yn fwy priodol i’r weithdrefn negyddol. Fodd bynnag, dylech gofio, hyd yn oed os dilynwn lwybr y weithdrefn negyddol, y bydd ymgynghoriad ar hynny beth bynnag, gan gynnwys memoranda esboniadol ac asesiadau effaith.

Given that the proposed Measure will be discussed in the Subordinate Legislation Committee, if there are substantive reasons why colleagues are not happy with the approach to section 60, it can always be brought before the Chamber. At the moment, we are not fully convinced that it needs to be brought automatically to the Chamber, but, even under the negative procedure, as the proposals are developed, colleagues can always bring proposals to the Chamber for

Ac ystyried y trafodir y Mesur arfaethedig yn y Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth, os oes rhesymau gwirioneddol pam nad yw cyd-Aelodau’n fodlon ar yr ymagwedd at adran 60, bydd yn bosibl dod ag ef gerbron y Siambr. Ar hyn o bryd, nid ydym yn gwbl argyhoeddedig fod angen dod ag ef yn awtomatig i’r Siambr, ond, hyd yn oed dan y weithdrefn negyddol, wrth i’r cynigion gael eu datblygu, gall cyd-Aelodau ddod â chynigion at y Siambr ar gyfer dadl os

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debate if they feel the need to do so. Therefore, whether we bring this to debate automatically or whether colleagues do so because of their concerns, both options are still open.

teimlant fod angen gwneud hynny. Felly, ni waeth a fyddwn yn dod a hyn i ddadl yn awtomatig neu a fydd cyd-Aelodau’n gwneud hynny oherwydd eu pryderon, mae’r ddau opsiwn ar agor o hyd.

Many colleagues referred to third sector involvement. I reiterate that the third sector is crucial to delivery, not only because of its policy contribution, but because it is a clear delivery partner. Just look at how it has contributed to this and continues to do so. Child Poverty Solution Wales would not be possible were it not for the participation of third sector organisations. Citizens Advice is delivering the disabled children benefit uptake scheme, with almost £0.5 million going into that. Tomorrow, I hope that we can release the details of the baby bond scheme, one of the elements of which will be the role of credit unions. We are therefore actively involved with the third sector in bringing this particular strategy to life.

Cyfeiriodd llawer o gyd-aelodau at ymglymiad trydydd sector. Ailadroddaf fod y trydydd sector yn allweddol i gyflenwi, nid yn unig oherwydd ei gyfraniad polisi, ond gan ei fod yn bartner cyflenwi clir. Sylwch sut mae wedi cyfrannu at hyn ac yn parhau i wneud hynny. Ni fyddai Datrys Tlodi Plant Cymru yn bosibl heb gyfranogiad sefydliadau trydydd sector. Mae Cyngor ar Bopeth yn cyflenwi cynllun manteisio ar fudd-dal plant anabl, a bron £0.5 miliwn yn mynd at hwnnw. Yfory, gobeithiaf y gallwn ryddhau manylion y cynllun bond baban, y bydd rôl undebau credyd ymhlith ei elfennau. Yr ydym felly wrthi’n ymwneud â’r trydydd sector yn sefydlu’r strategaeth arbennig hon.

5.20 p.m.

Free childcare was mentioned, which is important. There is already a legislative duty to ensure that an adequate needs assessment is undertaken, and I understand that Jane Hutt is in the process of considering the initial round of those assessments and will bring further considerations forward in due course.

Soniwyd am ofal plant rhad ac am ddim, sy’n bwysig. Mae dyletswydd ddeddfwriaethol eisoes i sicrhau y cynhelir asesiad anghenion digon da, a deallaf fod Jane Hutt wrthi’n ystyried rownd gychwynnol yr asesiadau hynny ac y bydd yn cyflwyno ystyriaethau pellach maes o law.

Jenny Randerson referred to the definition of play, asking for it to be made consistent with the play strategy. Our view of that is that the definition applied to the play strategy is rather narrow. Bearing in mind the fact that the child poverty agenda covers not just small children but also people who are well into their teens and even their early 20s, the definition in the play strategy is not really appropriate for the wider level of engagement. I fully agree that, wherever possible, we should use UK definitions in relation to relative poverty, material deprivation, persistent poverty and so forth, but we wanted the flexibility to vary that definition as required. The desirable situation would be to adopt an approach that is consistent with that of the UK.

Cyfeiriodd Jenny Randerson at y diffiniad o chwarae, gan ofyn am ei wneud yn gyson â’r strategaeth chwarae. Ein barn am hynny yw bod y diffiniad a gymhwyswyd i’r strategaeth chwarae yn eithaf cul. Gan gofio’r ffaith fod yr agenda tlodi plant yn cynnwys nid plant bach yn unig ond hefyd pobl sydd ymhell i’w harddegau a hyd yn oed dechrau eu 20au, nid yw’r diffiniad yn y strategaeth chwarae yn wirioneddol briodol i’r lefel ymgysylltu ehangach. Cytunaf yn llawn y dylem ddefnyddio diffiniadau DU, lle bynnag y bo modd, yng nghyswllt tlodi cymharol, amddifadedd perthnasol, tlodi parhaus ac yn y blaen, ond yr oedd arnom eisiau’r hyblygrwydd i amrywio’r diffiniad hwnnw yn ôl y gofyn. Y sefyllfa ddymunol fyddai mabwysiadu ymagwedd sy’n gyson ag ymagwedd y DU.

I really did not understand where Mark Nid oeddwn yn deall safbwynt Mark

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Isherwood was coming from. He made the point that the plans were not linked together. You do not have to read very far into the proposed Measure to reach section 1(2), which links the wide range of integrated services that need to be addressed. The particular areas that Mark mentioned, such as a commitment to getting people into work, are specifically covered by section 1(2)(c) and (k). Fuel poverty is covered by the references to increasing income and ensuring decent housing standards. On better incomes, the work that we are doing on benefit uptake is linked to that. All the issues that Mark raised are specifically covered by the legislation.

Isherwood o gwbl. Gwnaeth y pwynt nad oedd y cynlluniau wedi’u cysylltu â’i gilydd. Nid oes yn rhaid ichi ddarllen ymhell iawn i’r Mesur arfaethedig i gyrraedd adran 1(2), sy’n cysylltu’r ystod eang o wasanaethau integredig y mae angen mynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae’r meysydd arbennig y soniodd Mark amdanynt, fel ymrwymiad i gael pobl i mewn i waith, yn cael sylw penodol yn adran 1(2)(c) a (k). Mae tlodi tanwydd yn cael sylw yn y cyfeiriadau at gynyddu incwm a sicrhau safonau tai gweddus. O ran incymau gwell, mae’r gwaith yr ydym yn ei wneud ar fanteisio ar fudd-daliadau yn gysylltiedig â hynny. Mae’r holl faterion a gododd Mark yn cael sylw penodol yn y ddeddfwriaeth.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I understand that time is running out. There are other areas that need to be covered, but I can give the commitment that, in view of changing circumstances, we will revisit the explanatory memorandum that accompanies this proposed Measure to ensure that it is fully updated, not just with regard to developments in Wales, but also, developments across the rest of the United Kingdom.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, deallaf fod amser yn diflannu. Mae meysydd eraill y mae angen rhoi sylw iddynt, ond gallaf roi’r ymrwymiad y byddwn, ac ystyried amgylchiadau’n newid, yn ailystyried y memorandwm esboniadol sy’n dod gyda’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn i sicrhau y caiff ei ddiweddaru’n llawn, nid yn unig o ran datblygiadau yng Nghymru, ond hefyd datblygiadau ledled gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? I see that there are objections, in which case, I will defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Cynigir cytuno i welliant 1. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiadau, ac felly gohiriaf bob pleidlais ar yr eitem hon nes y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan yr amser pleidleisio.Voting deferred until voting time.

Penderfyniad Ariannol ynghylch y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru)

Financial Resolution for the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Proposed Children and Family (Wales) Measure, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order No. 23.80(ii)(b) and (c), arising in consequence of the Measure. (NDM4255)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, at ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o’r Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru), yn cytuno i unrhyw gynnydd mewn gwariant o’r math y cyfeiriwyd ato yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.80(ii)(b) ac (c), sy’n codi o ganlyniad i’r Mesur. (NDM4255)

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: There are no other speakers. Do you want to wind up, Minister? I see that you do not.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Nid oes unrhyw siaradwyr eraill. A oes arnoch eisiau dirwyn i ben, Weinidog? Gwelaf nad oes.

The Business Committee has decided that voting time would not be held before 5 p.m. and it is now 5.22 p.m., so I propose that we move straight to the vote. Do Members agree? I see that you do. Does anybody wish for the bell to be rung? I see that you do not, so we will move straight onto the vote.

Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes wedi penderfynu na fyddai cyfnod pleidleisio yn cael ei gynnal cyn 5 p.m. ac mae bellach yn 5.22 p.m., felly cynigiaf inni symud yn syth at y bleidlais. A yw Aelodau’n cytuno? Gwelaf eich bod. A oes unrhyw un yn dymuno canu’r gloch? Gwelaf nad oes, felly symudwn yn syth at y bleidlais.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4254: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 33.Amendment 1 to NDM4254: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 33.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

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Gwelliant 2 i NDM4254: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 33.Amendment 2 to NDM4254: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 33.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4254: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 32.Amendment 3 to NDM4254: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 32.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, Bethan

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Jones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 4 i NDM4254: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 33.Amendment 4 to NDM4254: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 33.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

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Gwelliant 5 i NDM4254: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 33.Amendment 5 to NDM4254: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 33.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 6 i NDM4254: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 6 to NDM4254: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishLewis, HuwMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, Nick

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun Ffred

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Randerson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Jones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Cynnig NDM4254: O blaid 34, Ymatal 16, Yn erbyn 0.Motion NDM4254: For 34, Abstain 16, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:The following Members abstained:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, Eleanor

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Burns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4253: O blaid 16, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 34.Amendment 1 to NDM4253: For 16, Abstain 0, Against 34.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4253: O blaid 15, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 34.Amendment 2 to NDM4253: For 15, Abstain 0, Against 34.

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Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewEvans, NerysGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Cynnig NDM4253: O blaid 49, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 1.Motion NDM4253: For 49, Abstain 0, Against 1.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelod canlynol yn erbyn:The following Member voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulEvans, NerysGerman, MichaelGibbons, Brian

Randerson, Jenny

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Graham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneIsherwood, MarkJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, BrynleWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Cynnig NDM4255: O blaid 50, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion NDM4255: For 50, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBates, MickBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulEvans, NerysGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneIsherwood, MarkJames, Irene

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Jenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, BrynleWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The agreement of the general principles and of the financial resolution for the Proposed Children and Families (Wales) Measure concludes Stage 1 of its passage. In accordance with Standing Order No. 23.29, Stage 2, the detailed consideration by committee, begins on the first working day after Stage 1 is completed. Members may table amendments from tomorrow to the proposed Measure for consideration by the Stage 2 committee. Amendments to the proposed Measure should be tabled through the Legislation Office and Members will receive an e-mail shortly explaining the process and key deadlines.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae cytuno i’r egwyddorion cyffredinol a’r penderfyniad ariannol ar gyfer Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Plant a Theuluoedd (Cymru) yn dod â Cham 1 ei dderbyn i ben. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.29, Cam 2, mae gwaith ystyried manwl y pwyllgor yn dechrau ar y diwrnod gwaith cyntaf ar ôl cwblhau Cam 1. O yfory ymlaen, caiff Aelodau gyflwyno gwelliannau i’r Mesur arfaethedig i’r pwyllgor Cam 2 eu hystyried. Dylid cyflwyno gwelliannau i’r Mesur arfaethedig drwy’r Swyddfa Ddeddfwriaeth a bydd Aelodau’n cael e-bost cyn bo hir yn egluro’r broses a’r terfynau amser allweddol.

That brings today’s business to a close. Daw hynny â busnes heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.27 p.m.The meeting ended at 5.27 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)

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Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

118