Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 29 Ebrill 2009Wednesday, 29 April 2009

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CynnwysContents

3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

3 Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a ThrafnidiaethQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport

3 Cwestiwn Brys: Llygru Cyflenwadau DŵrUrgent Question: Contamination of Water Supplies

3 Datganiad am Ffliw Moch Statement on Swine Influenza

3 Datganiad: yr Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf yn Dilyn y Pumed UwchgynhadleddEconomaidd Statement: Update Following the Fifth Economic Summit

3 Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal ar Faterion sy’n Effeithio ar Weithwyr Mudol Cymru, eu Teuluoedd a’r Cymunedau y Maent yn Byw ac yn Gweithio Ynddynt The Committee on Equality of Opportunity’s Report on Issues Affecting Migrant Workers in Wales, their Families and the Communities in which They Live and Work

3 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Cyllideb Llywodraeth y DU Welsh Conservatives Debate: The UK Government’s Budget

3 Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Cyllideb Llywodraeth y DU Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate: The UK Government’s Budget

3 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

3 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolQuestions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

NHS Primary Care Services Gwasanaethau Gofal Sylfaenol y GIG

Q1 Darren Millar: Will the Minister make a statement on NHS primary care services in Wales? OAQ(3)1011(HSS)

C1 Darren Millar: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am wasanaethau gofal sylfaenol y GIG yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1011(HSS)

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I have asked Dr Chris Jones, chair of the Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Health Board, to develop a new primary and community healthcare strategy. I will make a statement once that work is complete.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Yr wyf wedi gofyn i Dr Chris Jones, cadeirydd Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf, ddatblygu strategaeth gofal iechyd sylfaenol a chymunedol newydd. Byddaf yn gwneud datganiad pan fydd y gwaith hwnnw wedi’i gwblhau.

Darren Millar: Thank you for your answer, Minister. One of the essential components of high-quality primary care services is that they operate from premises that are fit for purpose, yet your department issued instructions to local health boards the length and breadth of Wales in November last year to put a stop on any new primary healthcare developments across the country. When do you intend to lift that moratorium? Also, given the shortage of cash available to the Welsh public sector as a result of the recent UK budget, do you agree that it is time for your department to drop your dogmatic views, as Minister, opposing the involvement of the private sector in delivering the high-quality healthcare estate that we need in Wales?

Darren Millar: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, Weinidog. Un o elfennau hanfodol gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol o safon uchel yw eu bod yn gweithredu o adeiladau sy’n addas i’r pwrpas. Er hynny, rhoddodd eich adran gyfarwyddiadau fis Tachwedd y llynedd i fyrddau iechyd lleol ym mhob cwr o Gymru am roi terfyn ar unrhyw ddatblygiadau newydd ym maes gofal iechyd sylfaenol ym mhob cwr o’r wlad. Pryd y bwriadwch godi’r moratoriwm hwnnw? Hefyd, o ystyried nad oes digon o arian ar gael i sector cyhoeddus Cymru yn sgil cyllideb ddiweddar y DU, a gytunwch ei bod yn bryd i’ch adran newid eich agweddau dogmataidd, fel Gweinidog, yn gwrthwynebu cynnwys y sector preifat wrth ddarparu’r ystâd gofal iechyd o safon uchel y mae arnom ei hangen yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart: I will deliver national health service care in the way that I wish to deliver it, namely through the public sector. I have recently been involved in authorising several new primary healthcare developments the length and breadth of Wales, therefore, I find your question astonishing. There have been problems with LHBs and the way that they have dealt with some of these contracts and some of the issues, which I must get to grips

Edwina Hart: Byddaf yn darparu gofal y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn y ffordd y dymunaf ei ddarparu, sef drwy’r sector cyhoeddus. Yn ddiweddar bûm yn ymwneud â’r gwaith o awdurdodi amryw o ddatblygiadau gofal iechyd sylfaenol newydd ledled Cymru. Felly, mae eich cwestiwn yn fy synnu’n fawr. Cafwyd problemau gyda’r Byrddau Iechyd Lleol a’r ffordd y maent wedi delio â rhai o’r contractau hyn ac â rhai

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with in terms of the rules, but, much new practice has been developed and much good work is going on, even, I think you will agree, in your own patch, Mr Millar.

o’r problemau, a rhaid imi fynd i’r afael â’r rheolau ar eu cyfer. Ond mae nifer o arferion newydd wedi’u datblygu, ac mae llawer o waith da—yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch chi hyd yn oed yn cytuno, Mr Millar—yn mynd ymlaen yn eich ardal chi.

Ann Jones: I met recently with Optometry Wales, which represents many primary care practitioners from across Wales, as you know. While it broadly welcomes the current changes in health service structures, it is looking for assurances that it will continue to have a clear voice in the new system. Under the proposals, optometrists, like several other professions, will come off the new local health boards. Can you assure them that they will have a representative on each of the seven professional fora that are being created to advise and support local health boards at local levels?

Ann Jones: Cefais gyfarfod yn ddiweddar ag Optometreg Cymru, sy’n cynrychioli nifer o ymarferwyr gofal sylfaenol o bob cwr o Gymru, fel y gwyddoch. Er ei fod yn croesawu’n gyffredinol y newidiadau presennol yn strwythurau’r gwasanaeth iechyd, mae’n ceisio cael sicrwydd y bydd ganddo lais clir o hyd yn y system newydd. Dan y cynigion bydd optometreg, fel nifer o broffesiynau eraill, yn dod dan y byrddau iechyd lleol newydd. A allwch eu sicrhau y bydd ganddynt gynrychiolydd ym mhob un o’r saith fforwm proffesiynol a gaiff eu creu i gynghori ac i gynorthwyo byrddau iechyd lleol ar lefel leol?

Edwina Hart: I take this opportunity to thank you for that question, Ann, because I would like to reassure that particular profession, which I am meeting shortly to discuss how optometrists can better assist us in the development of primary healthcare. I want them to be fully involved in the professional fora that will exist across Wales. They have been particularly innovative in the way that they wanted to deliver services across Wales, and I trust that that will continue.

Edwina Hart: Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i ddiolch ichi am y cwestiwn hwnnw, Ann, oherwydd hoffwn dawelu meddwl y proffesiwn penodol hwnnw, a byddaf yn cwrdd ag ef yn fuan i drafod sut y gall optometryddion ein cynorthwyo’n fwy wrth inni ddatblygu gofal iechyd sylfaenol. Yr wyf am iddynt gyfrannu’n llawn at y fforwm proffesiynol a gaiff ei greu ledled Cymru. Maent wedi bod yn hynod arloesol yn y modd yr oedd arnynt eisiau darparu gwasanaethau ledled Cymru, ac yr wyf yn ffyddiog y bydd hynny’n parhau.

Eleanor Burnham: In view of the improved quality of care that we are all looking forward to—and my constituents in north Wales are waiting with bated breath to find out how the new reorganisation will affect them—how will the reorganisation impact on the quality of primary care services in north Wales?

Eleanor Burnham: Gyda golwg ar y gofal o well ansawdd yr ydym i gyd yn edrych ymlaen ato—ac mae fy etholwyr yn y gogledd yn dal eu hanadl i weld sut y bydd yr ad-drefnu newydd yn effeithio arnynt—sut y bydd yr ad-drefnu yn effeithio ar ansawdd gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol yn y gogledd?

Edwina Hart: I am not waiting with bated breath, because I am fairly certain that the reorganisation will be excellent for patients. At the end of the day, the patients should see no change except improvements in service provision. The whole focus of these changes is in primary and community care, which is why I have asked Dr Chris Jones—as you will be aware, he has written excellent

Edwina Hart: Nid wyf fi’n dal fy anadl, oherwydd yr wyf yn bur sicr y bydd yr ad-drefnu’n beth gwych i gleifion. Yn y pen draw, ni ddylai’r cleifion weld dim newid ar wahân i welliannau yn y gwasanaethau a ddarperir. Mae’r newidiadau hyn yn canolbwyntio’n llwyr ar ofal sylfaenol a chymunedol, a dyna pam yr wyf wedi gofyn i Dr Chris Jones—fel y gwyddoch, mae wedi

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reports for me before, which you have all commented upon in the Chamber—what focus we need in primary care. I am confident that we will be able to deliver that over time. The focus must be on primary and community care; it must be linked to what we do in the social care agenda, stopping people from falling ill, keeping people at home and bringing together all the primary care services in a holistic way.

ysgrifennu adroddiadau gwych imi yn y gorffennol, ac yr ydych i gyd wedi gwneud sylwadau arnynt yn y Siambr—ar beth ym maes gofal sylfaenol y mae angen inni ganolbwyntio. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog y gallwn gyflawni hynny ymhen amser. Rhaid canolbwyntio ar ofal sylfaenol a chymunedol; rhaid iddo gyd-fynd â’r hyn a wnawn yn ein hagenda gofal cymdeithasol, sef atal pobl rhag mynd yn sâl, cadw pobl yn eu cartrefi a dod â’r holl wasanaethau gofal sylfaenol ynghyd mewn ffordd gyfannol.

Gareth Jones: Gwn eich bod ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried argymhellion a wnaethpwyd gan fwrdd prosiect Ysbyty Llandudno i roi awgrymiadau adroddiad Burns ar ddyfodol darpariaeth gwasanaethau meddygol yn Ysbyty Llandudno ar waith. Yr wyf yn deall mai un argymhelliad allweddol fydd darparu gwasanaeth 24 awr yn yr uned mân anafiadau, gan ddefnyddio nyrsys yn bennaf, ond gyda chefnogaeth meddygon teulu’r gwasanaeth y tu allan i oriau, sydd wedi ei ailwampio. A ydych yn cytuno bod cael meddygon teulu wedi eu lleoli yn adeilad newydd yr uned honno neu’n gyfochrog â hi, yn ffordd synhwyrol ymlaen ac y dylai hyn fod yn amod angenrheidiol yng nghontract newydd y gwasanaeth y tu allan i oriau pan fydd yn cael ei adnewyddu ym mis Hydref 2010?

Gareth Jones: I am aware that you are currently considering the recommendations made by Llandudno Hospital Project Board to implement the recommendations of the Burns report on the future of medical services at Llandudno Hospital. I understand that one key recommendation will be to provide a 24-hour service in the minor injuries unit, using nurses mainly, but with the support of the service’s out of hours general practitioners, which has been revised. Do you agree that having general practitioners located in the unit’s new building, or adjacent to it, is a sensible way forward, and that this should be a requisite condition of the service’s new out-of-hours contract when it will be renewed in October 2010?

Edwina Hart: You have made a positive suggestion for the areas that we will discuss when we look at out-of-hours services. I am concerned by the nature of out-of-hours services across Wales, the standards provided and equality-of-access issues, so I will certainly bear that in mind. I am currently doing a lot of work on out-of-hours provision, and would be grateful for any views from Members about how they could see us developing improvements.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydych wedi gwneud awgrym cadarnhaol ar gyfer y meysydd y byddwn yn eu trafod wrth edrych ar wasanaethau y tu allan i oriau. Mae natur y gwasanaethau y tu allan i oriau ledled Cymru, y safonau a ddarperir a materion yn ymwneud â mynediad cyfartal yn peri pryder imi, felly, byddaf yn sicr yn cadw hynny mewn cof. Yr wyf yn gwneud llawer o waith ar hyn o bryd ar ddarpariaeth y tu allan i oriau, a byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi unrhyw sylwadau gan yr Aelodau ynghylch sut y gallent ein gweld yn datblygu gwelliannau.

Health Services in Rural Wales Gwasanaethau Iechyd yn y Gymru Wledig

Q2 The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of health services in rural Wales? OAQ(HSS)1017(HSS)

C2 Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru wledig? OAQ(HSS)1017(HSS)

Edwina Hart: The provision of rural health Edwina Hart: Mae darparu gwasanaethau

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services is one of my health priorities and is a ‘One Wales’ commitment. Considerable work has been undertaken in the past 12 months to gather evidence to inform the rural health plan, which will be launched for public consultation on Friday, 1 May.

iechyd gwledig yn un o’m blaenoriaethau iechyd ac yn un o ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’. Gwnaethpwyd llawer o waith yn y 12 mis diwethaf i gasglu tystiolaeth a fydd yn sail i’r cynllun iechyd gwledig, a gaiff ei lansio ar gyfer ymgynghori cyhoeddus ddydd Gwener, 1 Mai.

Nick Bourne: During the Easter recess I, along with other Members I am sure, had the opportunity to talk to local community health councils. I talked to the CHC in Ceredigion, and I visited Bronglais Hospital. We were told at the time of the trust merger that two of the principal reasons for the merger were financial security and greater ease of staff recruitment. There is no doubt that Bronglais Hospital has excellent staff who are doing a fantastic job. However, there is a serious issue about nurse recruitment in the Owain Glyndŵr Ward, and the post of general consultant surgeon has been vacant for some time. This is causing concerns locally. I am concerned about jeopardising the provision of the excellent services at Bronglais. These include the provision of accident and emergency services, gynaecology, paediatrics, and acute services. Is the Minister aware of these issues? Has she had any discussions on them and can she give some reassurance about the concerns that exist locally?

Nick Bourne: Yn ystod toriad y Pasg cefais i, ynghyd ag Aelodau eraill, yr wyf yn siŵr, gyfle i siarad â chynghorau iechyd cymuned lleol. Siaradais â Chyngor Iechyd Cymuned Ceredigion, ac ymwelais ag Ysbyty Bron-glais. Dywedwyd wrthym adeg uno’r ymddiriedolaeth mai dau o’r prif resymau dros uno oedd sicrwydd ariannol a hwyluso’r broses o recriwtio staff. Yn ddiau, mae gan Ysbyty Bron-glais staff gwych sy’n gwneud gwaith campus. Fodd bynnag, mae yna broblem ddifrifol i recriwtio nyrsys yn Ward Owain Glyndŵr, ac mae’r swydd llawfeddyg ymgynghorol cyffredinol yn wag ers cryn amser. Mae hyn yn achosi pryder yn lleol. Yr wyf yn pryderu y bydd y gwasanaethau gwych a ddarperir ym Mron-glais mewn perygl. Mae hyn yn cynnwys gwasanaethau damweiniau ac achosion brys, gynaecoleg, pediatreg a gwasanaethau acíwt. A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o’r materion hyn? A yw wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau yn eu cylch, ac a all dawelu meddyliau am y pryderon yn lleol?

Edwina Hart: I thank the Leader of the Opposition for the complimentary way that he views services in Bronglais, and particularly the excellent contribution of the hospital’s staff. It is a remote district general hospital and there are recruitment issues sometimes in the area. I am aware of some of the concerns from nurses and the Royal College of Nursing about general recruitment issues in Wales. However, I will make specific enquiries with the medical director at Bronglais and write to the Member.

Edwina Hart: Diolch i Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid am ei agwedd ganmoliaethus at wasanaethau Bron-glais, ac yn enwedig at gyfraniad gwych staff yr ysbyty. Mae’n ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth anghysbell a bydd problemau recriwtio yn yr ardal o bryd i’w gilydd. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o rai o bryderon y nyrsys a phryderon Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys ynghylch problemau recriwtio cyffredinol yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf ymholiadau penodol gyda’r cyfarwyddwr meddygol ym Mron-glais, a byddaf yn ysgrifennu at yr Aelod.

Joyce Watson: I have raised issues to do with access to stroke services in mid and west Wales a number of times, Minister, and you have been good enough to look into those issues. I draw your attention to another group that provides much-needed support for people who have suffered a stroke in Carmarthenshire. The Stroke Association’s

Joyce Watson: Yr wyf wedi codi materion droeon yn ymwneud â gallu cael gwasanaethau strôc yn y canolbarth a’r gorllewin, Weinidog, ac yr oeddech yn barod iawn i edrych ar y materion hynny. Tynnaf eich sylw at grŵp arall sy’n darparu cymorth y mae taer ei angen ar gyfer pobl sydd wedi cael strôc yn sir Gaerfyrddin. Cafodd grŵp

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community integration service group that meets in Llandysul every Wednesday at the youth hall, providing activities and support, was set up in 2004 with money from the National Lottery. Since the money ran out two years ago, it has to find money from donations and fundraising on a monthly basis. The fears are that, unless the year’s funding can be found, it will be forced to close. Will you use your good offices, yet again, for stroke services and look into this particular scheme with a view to seeing what could be done?

gwasanaeth integreiddio i’r gymuned gan y Gymdeithas Strôc ei sefydlu yn 2004 gydag arian y Loteri Genedlaethol, a bydd yn cwrdd yn Llandysul bob dydd Mercher yn y neuadd ieuenctid gan ddarparu cefnogaeth a gweithgareddau. Ers i’r arian ddod i ben ddwy flynedd yn ôl rhaid iddo gael arian o gyfraniadau a chodi arian o fis i fis. Y pryder yw, oni ellir dod o hyd i gyllid am y flwyddyn, y bydd yn rhaid i’r grŵp ddod i ben. A wnewch chi fod yn gymodwr unwaith eto dros wasanaethau strôc, ac edrych ar y cynllun penodol hwn i geisio gweld beth y gellid ei wneud?

Edwina Hart: There is always a problem when the lottery initially funds certain schemes as we then have to look for continuing revenue support. There are issues around this. I would like to continue to support many schemes that were kick started by the lottery. I will have to look at the financial pressures within my own budget about what are core NHS services, what are additional services and where will we engage with the voluntary sector for support. In that context, I am happy to look at it.

Edwina Hart: Bydd problem bob amser pan fydd y loteri yn ariannu cynlluniau penodol ar y cychwyn oherwydd wedyn rhaid inni chwilio am gymorth refeniw parhaus. Mae hyn yn creu problemau. Hoffwn barhau i gefnogi nifer o gynlluniau a gychwynnwyd gan y loteri. Bydd yn rhaid imi edrych ar y pwysau ariannol yn fy nghyllideb fy hun ynghylch beth sy’n wasanaethau craidd y GIG, beth sy’n wasanaethau ychwanegol a ble byddwn yn ymwneud â’r sector gwirfoddol i gael cefnogaeth. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw yr wyf yn fodlon edrych ar y cynllun.

Mick Bates: I recently met with the Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru in my constituency to discuss the lack of a specialist multiple sclerosis nurse in Powys. People with MS can attend clinics in Shrewsbury, Herefordshire or Merseyside which is usually a round journey of 100 miles. I am sure that Members are aware that this is MS Awareness Week and I, like many of you, was shocked to see the numbers suffering from MS in my constituency. Last night, a new cross-party group for neurosciences was established, bringing together members of neurological charities. It is about time that your Government brought professionals together in Powys and other rural areas. Will you give a commitment to work with Powys LHB to develop a neurological nurse team for Powys so that people with MS, motor neurone disease, and other neurological conditions, are not forced to drive to England for basic services?

Mick Bates: Cefais gyfarfod yn ddiweddar â Multiple Sclerosis Society Cymru yn fy etholaeth i drafod y prinder nyrsys arbenigol ym maes sglerosis ymledol ym Mhowys. Gall pobl sydd â sglerosis ymledol fynd i glinigau yn Amwythig, Swydd Henffordd neu ar Lannau Mersi, sydd fel rheol yn siwrnai o 100 milltir i gyd. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gŵyr yr Aelodau ei bod yn Wythnos Ymwybyddiaeth Sglerosis Ymledol yr wythnos hon, ac yr oeddwn i, fel nifer ohonoch, yn synnu gweld y nifer yn fy etholaeth sy’n dioddef gan sglerosis ymledol. Neithiwr sefydlwyd grŵp trawsbleidiol newydd ar gyfer niwrowyddorau, sy’n dwyn ynghyd aelodau o elusennau niwrolegol. Mae’n hen bryd i’ch Llywodraeth ddod â gweithwyr proffesiynol at ei gilydd ym Mhowys ac mewn ardaloedd gwledig eraill. A wnewch chi ymrwymo i weithio gyda BILl Powys i ddatblygu tîm o nyrsys niwrolegol ar gyfer Powys fel na fydd yn rhaid i bobl sydd â sglerosis ymledol, clefyd niwronau motor a chyflyrau niwrolegol eraill yrru i Loegr i gael gwasanaethau sylfaenol?

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Edwina Hart: I am always asked whether I am going to use the English NHS to provide cross-border services. In reply, I have said that this is a national health service, and if it is closer for people to go to England—there are examples in north Wales where we use Alder Hey Children’s Hospital, or Walton Hospital—then we have to accept that some services will be provided across the border.

Edwina Hart: Gofynnir imi bob amser a wyf am ddefnyddio GIG Lloegr i ddarparu gwasanaethau ar draws ffiniau. Wrth ateb, yr wyf wedi dweud mai gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yw hwn, ac os yw’n nes i bobl fynd i Loegr—mae enghreifftiau yn y gogledd lle’r ydym yn defnyddio Ysbyty Plant Alder Hey, neu Ysbyty Walton—rhaid derbyn y caiff rhai gwasanaethau eu darparu dros y ffin.

As you know, Powys is geographically difficult and has special needs that need to be looked at. However, do not use the phrase about time with me. I have been dealing with neurological services since I have been a Minister, trying to ensure that we have better epilepsy services and other services close to home. I will strive to do that with the professional advisers that I currently have, who work collectively together. I am mindful of what you say about Powys and I will see what can be done in the future.

Fel y gwyddoch, mae Powys yn sir anodd yn ddaearyddol, ac mae ganddi anghenion arbennig y mae angen edrych arnynt. Fodd bynnag, peidiwch â sôn wrthyf fi am amser. Yr wyf yn delio â gwasanaethau niwrolegol ers imi fod yn Weinidog, yn ceisio sicrhau bod gennym well gwasanaethau epilepsi a gwasanaethau eraill yn agos at y cartref. BYddaf yn ymdrechu i wneud hynny gyda’r cynghorwyr proffesiynol sydd gennyf ar hyn o bryd ac sy’n cydweithio gyda’i gilydd. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r hyn a ddywedwch am Bowys, a chaf weld beth y gellir ei wneud yn y dyfodol.

1.40 p.m.

Nerys Evans: Hoffwn eich llongyfarch yn fawr, Weinidog, ar eich gwaith ar y cynllun iechyd gwledig wrth ddatblygu ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’. Mae’r rhai ohonom sydd yn dod o Gymru wledig neu sy’n cynrychioli’r ardaloedd hyn yn gwybod nad yw’r model trefol o ddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd yn ddigonol a bod angen symud gwasanaethau allan i’n cymunedau. A allwch ymhelaethu ar yr amserlen ar gyfer datblygu’r ymrwymiad hwn er mwyn i bawb yng Nghymru wledig allu manteisio ar yr ymrwymiad teilwng hwn?

Nerys Evans: I should like to congratulate you very much, Minister, on your work on the rural health plan in developing the ‘One Wales’ commitment. Those of us who are from, or who represent, rural areas of Wales know that the urban model of providing healthcare is inadequate and that services need to be moved out to our communities. Can you provide further details about the timetable to develop this commitment so that people in rural Wales can benefit from this worthy commitment?

Edwina Hart: Rural health planning will start big time when we launch the plan on 1 May. I will be launching it with Elin Jones, the Minister for Rural Affairs, in Llandovery. There will be a fairly detailed public consultation over 16 weeks to collect the very good ideas that communities have about enhancing rural healthcare. Once we have that response, it will be up to me to provide an action plan that will really kick start the delivery of services in rural areas.

Edwina Hart: Bydd gwaith cynllunio iechyd gwledig yn dechrau o ddifrif pan fyddwn yn lansio’r cynllun ar 1 Mai. Byddaf yn ei lansio yn Llanymddyfri gydag Elin Jones, y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig. Bydd ymgynghori cyhoeddus pur fanwl am 16 wythnos i gasglu syniadau da gan gymunedau ynghylch gwella gofal iechyd gwledig. Ar ôl cael yr ymateb hwnnw, fi fydd yn gyfrifol am ddarparu cynllun gweithredu a fydd yn rhoi hwb gwirioneddol i’r gwasanaethau a ddarperir mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

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Alun Davies: Minister, you will be aware that, tomorrow, in Brecon, the redeveloped War Memorial Hospital will be opened. I am sure that you would like to join me in congratulating the local health board on its work on redeveloping the hospital and providing services in the local environment. We all understand and appreciate that the rural health plan, which you will be launching in Llandovery on Friday, will create a strategic focus and a structure for the delivery of health services in rural Wales. However, it is the provision of community facilities such as those in Brecon that really ensures the delivery of services. I am sure that you will join me in congratulating the people who completed the work there and in looking forward to the services that will be provided there.

Alun Davies: Weinidog, mae’n siŵr y gwyddoch fod yr Ysbyty Coffa yn Aberhonddu i gael ei agor yfory ar ei newydd wedd. Yr wyf yn siŵr yr hoffech ymuno â mi i longyfarch y bwrdd iechyd lleol am ei waith yn ailddatblygu’r ysbyty ac yn darparu gwasanaethau yn yr ardal leol. Yr ydym i gyd yn deall ac yn sylweddoli y bydd y cynllun iechyd gwledig y byddwch yn ei lansio yn Llanymddyfri ddydd Gwener yn creu canolbwynt strategol a strwythur ar gyfer darparu gwasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru wledig. Fodd bynnag, cyfleusterau cymunedol megis y rheiny a ddarperir yn Aberhonddu sy’n wirioneddol yn sicrhau darparu gwasanaethau. Yr wyf yn siŵr yr ymunwch â mi i longyfarch y bobl a wnaeth y gwaith yno ac i edrych ymlaen at weld y gwasanaethau a gaiff eu darparu yno.

Edwina Hart: I congratulate the LHB on the work that it has undertaken. In Powys, quite a lot of innovative work has been done, which is now being taken forward in conjunction with the local authority, which might provide a slightly different approach to services in future. I should say ‘Thank you’ to the people of Brecon for waiting for these developments.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn llongyfarch y BILl ar y gwaith y mae wedi’i wneud. Ym Mhowys mae cryn waith arloesol wedi’i wneud, ac eir ymlaen â’r gwaith hwnnw yn awr ar y cyd â’r awdurdod lleol, a gallai’r gwaith hwnnw ddarparu dull fymryn yn wahanol o ddarparu gwasanaethau yn y dyfodol. Dylwn ddiolch i bobl Aberhonddu am aros am y datblygiadau hyn.

Y Llywydd: Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 3, OAQ(3)1007(HSS), i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig gan y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol.

The Presiding Officer: Question 3, OAQ(3)1007(HSS), has been transferred for written answer by the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government.

Primary Healthcare Gofal Iechyd Sylfaenol

Q4 Huw Lewis: Will the Minister provide an update on plans for primary healthcare in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ(3)1059(HSS)

C4 Huw Lewis: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddarparu’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynlluniau ar gyfer gofal iechyd sylfaenol ym Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni? OAQ(3)1059(HSS)

Edwina Hart: Professor Mansel Aylward’s report recommended strengthening the existing model of primary care. I asked Merthyr LHB to act on these recommendations, and I understand that work is progressing well.

Edwina Hart: Yr oedd adroddiad yr Athro Mansel Aylward yn argymell cryfhau’r model gofal sylfaenol presennol. Gofynnais i BILl Merthyr weithredu ar yr argymhellion hyn, a chaf ar ddeall bod y gwaith yn mynd rhagddo’n dda.

Huw Lewis: Thank you, Minister. I wish to take this opportunity to commend the thorough and determined way that you have progressed this issue. When can the people of

Huw Lewis: Diolch ichi, Weinidog. Carwn achub ar y cyfle hwn i ganmol eich ffordd drylwyr a phenderfynol o fwrw ymlaen â’r mater hwn. Pryd y gall pobl Merthyr

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Merthyr expect to see construction work on their new town hospital begin?

ddisgwyl gweld y gwaith adeiladu yn dechrau ar ysbyty newydd y dref?

Edwina Hart: I have been concerned because we have spoken so often about the Merthyr project and people have been expecting to see buildings going up for such a long time; it must now become a reality. I wish to reassure you—I was speaking to Dr Chris Jones, the new chair of the LHB, about Merthyr last week, and I said that he must ensure that this is kick started because we are still on the outline business case at the moment. That will be completed in the autumn, and then we really need to get on site in order to deliver.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf wedi bod yn pryderu oherwydd yr ydym wedi siarad mor aml am brosiect Merthyr, ac mae pobl wedi bod yn disgwyl gweld adeiladau’n codi ers cymaint o amser; rhaid gwneud hyn yn realiti yn awr. Carwn eich sicrhau—yr oeddwn yn siarad â Dr Chris Jones, cadeirydd newydd y BILl, ynghylch Merthyr yr wythnos diwethaf, a dywedais ei bod yn rhaid iddo sicrhau rhoi sbardun i’r gwaith, oherwydd yr ydym yn dal yn y cam busnes amlinellol ar hyn o bryd. Caiff hwnnw ei gwblhau yn yr hydref, ac wedyn mae gwir angen inni ddechrau ar y safle er mwyn cyflawni’r gwaith.

William Graham: What action are you taking to increase the numbers of female GPs, particularly in Merthyr, which has a poor record, where less than 20 per cent of GPs are female, compared with Monmouth, for example, where there is gender parity?

William Graham: Pa gamau yr ydych yn eu cymryd i gynyddu nifer y menywod sy’n feddygon teulu, yn enwedig ym Merthyr lle mae record wael, gyda llai nag 20 y cant o’r meddygon teulu yn fenywod, o’i gymharu â Mynwy, er enghraifft, lle mae cydraddoldeb rhwng dynion a menywod?

Edwina Hart: Thank you very much indeed. I had not actually looked at the gender statistics in respect of GPs. You make a very interesting point, because there are more women going into the medical profession and into general practice, but you have raised with me now the question of whether there has been a barrier to their coming into practices in certain areas of Wales. I will certainly ask my officials to have a look at that to help to ensure that we have a proper balance, because I recognise that some patients, particularly female patients, like to see a female GP. That is an important element of choice for patients.

Edwina Hart: Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi. Nid oeddwn wedi edrych ar yr ystadegau rhyw o safbwynt meddygon teulu. Mae gennych bwynt diddorol iawn, oherwydd mae mwy o fenywod yn ymuno â’r proffesiwn meddygol ac ymarfer meddygol, ond yr ydych wedi codi’r pwynt a oes rhywbeth wedi’u rhwystro rhag dod i bractisau mewn rhai ardaloedd yng Nghymru. Byddaf yn bendant yn gofyn i’m swyddogion edrych ar hynny er mwyn helpu i sicrhau bod gennym gydbwysedd priodol, oherwydd yr wyf yn cydnabod bod rhai cleifion, yn enwedig cleifion sy’n fenywod, yn hoffi gweld meddyg teulu sy’n fenyw. Mae hynny’n elfen bwysig o ddewis i gleifion.

Michael German: Minister, I heard what you said to Huw Lewis just now about an outline business case being produced by the autumn. What sort of period of time is there normally between the production of an outline business case and the approval of a project so that building work can begin?

Michael German: Weinidog, clywais yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud wrth Huw Lewis am gynhyrchu achos busnes amlinellol erbyn yr hydref. Faint o amser sydd fel rheol rhwng cynhyrchu achos busnes amlinellol a chymeradwyo prosiect fel y gellir dechrau gwaith adeiladu?

Edwina Hart: I could not tell you that now; I will be absolutely frank with you and say that I think it varies. Sometimes, when we get the outline business cases in, they are not

Edwina Hart: Ni allwn ddweud hynny wrthych ar hyn o bryd; byddaf yn gwbl onest â chi a dweud fy mod yn credu ei fod yn amrywio. Weithiau, pan gawn yr achosion

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necessarily up to standard and further work needs to be undertaken. I am more than happy to ask my officials to look at the normal timescales in order to provide you with an indication. I will do some work on that if it is feasible.

busnes amlinellol nid ydynt o reidrwydd yn ddigon da, a bydd angen gwneud gwaith pellach. Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon gofyn i’m swyddogion edrych ar yr amserlenni arferol er mwyn rhoi syniad ichi. Gwnaf rywfaint o waith ar hynny os yw’n ymarferol.

Nurses Nyrsys

Q5 Mohammad Asghar: Has the Minister received any representations about the training and development of nurses in Wales? OAQ(3)1035(HSS)

C5 Mohammad Asghar: A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cael unrhyw sylwadau ynghylch hyfforddiant a datblygiad nyrsys yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1035(HSS)

Edwina Hart: I have not. However, on 4 February, I announced an increase in the number of healthcare training courses to be funded from September 2009, based on recommendations—which have been accepted in full—from the NHS, staff and unions.

Edwina Hart: Nac ydw. Fodd bynnag, ar 4 Chwefror cyhoeddais gynnydd yn nifer y cyrsiau hyfforddiant gofal iechyd a gaiff eu hariannu o fis Medi 2009 ymlaen, yn seiliedig ar argymhellion—sydd wedi’u derbyn yn llwyr—gan y GIG, staff ac undebau.

Mohammad Asghar: Thank you, Minister. I was recently a panel member for a Royal College of Nursing forum and I thank Val Lloyd for hosting the forum and for the work that she does in chairing the all-party group on nursing. I also met nurses at a lunchtime Royal College of Nursing event and was interested to hear their views and concerns. I urge my fellow Assembly Members to attend such events whenever possible. Practice nurses have a vital role in primary care, providing health screening, for example, and working with patients to manage chronic conditions. It would benefit patients to see nurse practitioners with independent prescribing skills. Will the Minister join me in supporting the Royal College of Nursing’s call for better access to continuous professional development to further enhance the role of nurses in primary care?

Mohammad Asghar: Diolch ichi, Weinidog. Yn ddiweddar, yr oeddwn yn aelod o banel fforwm gan Goleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys, a diolch i Val Lloyd am groesawu’r fforwm ac am y gwaith y mae’n ei wneud yn cadeirio’r grŵp hollbleidiol ar nyrsio. Cyfarfûm hefyd â nyrsys mewn digwyddiad amser cinio a gynhaliwyd gan Goleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys, ac yr oedd gennyf ddiddordeb clywed eu barn a’u pryderon. Anogaf fy nghyd-Aelodau Cynulliad i fynd i ddigwyddiadau o’r fath pryd bynnag y gallant. Mae gan nyrsys practis rôl hanfodol mewn gofal sylfaenol, yn darparu sgrinio iechyd, er enghraifft, ac yn gweithio gyda chleifion i reoli cyflyrau cronig. Byddai o fudd i gleifion weld ymarferwyr nyrsio sydd â sgiliau rhagnodi annibynnol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymuno â mi i gefnogi galwad Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys am well mynediad i ddatblygiad proffesiynol parhaus er mwyn cynyddu rôl nyrsys mewn gofal sylfaenol ymhellach?

Edwina Hart: I concur with your comments concerning Val Lloyd, who had a very distinguished professional career in nursing. I know that she enjoys her role with the cross-party group in the Assembly. It is important that expertise from your other lives sometimes comes into play in the Assembly.

Edwina Hart: Cytunaf â’ch sylwadau am Val Lloyd, a gafodd yrfa broffesiynol lwyddiannus iawn ym myd nyrsio. Gwn ei bod yn mwynhau ei rôl gyda’r grŵp trawsbleidiol yn y Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig i arbenigedd o’ch bywydau eraill gael ei ddefnyddio yn y Cynulliad.

Primary care nurses are central to meeting a range of population health needs. We have

Mae nyrsys gofal sylfaenol yn ganolog i ddiwallu amryw o anghenion iechyd y

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established that in the relationship that we now have with nurses in Wales. As you are aware, I am currently consulting on the community nurses’ new strategy until around mid June. This strategy was developed by a ministerial task and finish group, which was chaired by the Royal College of Nursing. It made 43 recommendations, including three recommendations relating to nursing practice. I would not want to pre-empt the outcome that consultation, and I will respond once I have had the comments and considered them.

boblogaeth. Yr ydym wedi sefydlu hynny yn y berthynas sydd gennym â nyrsys yng Nghymru erbyn hyn. Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf yn ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd ar y strategaeth newydd ar nyrsys cymunedol, tan tua chanol mis Mehefin. Datblygwyd y strategaeth hon gan grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen o weinidogion, dan gadeiryddiaeth Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys. Gwnaeth 43 o argymhellion, gan gynnwys tri argymhelliad yn ymwneud ag ymarfer nyrsio. Ni fyddwn am ragdybio canlyniad yr ymgynghori hwnnw, a byddaf yn ymateb cyn gynted ag y byddaf wedi cael y sylwadau ac wedi eu hystyried.

We have supported the introduction of independent nurse prescribing. There are programmes in, I think, five of the schools in Wales that deal with it. If a general practitioner feels that the service to patients will be improved by nurse practitioners, they can support that training. Nursing is high on the healthcare agenda, because nurses will be key individuals as we develop better primary and community health strategies.

Yr ydym wedi cefnogi cyflwyno rhagnodi annibynnol gan nyrsys. Mae rhaglenni, mi gredaf, ym mhewn o’r ysgolion yng Nghymru sy’n delio â hynny. Os bydd ymarferydd cyffredinol yn teimlo y byddai’r gwasanaeth i gleifion yn gwella gydag ymarferwyr nyrsio, gall gefnogi’r hyfforddiant hwnnw. Mae nyrsio yn uchel ar yr agenda gofal iechyd, oherwydd bydd nyrsys yn unigolion allweddol wrth inni ddatblygu gwell strategaethau gofal iechyd sylfaenol a chymunedol.

Jonathan Morgan: You know very well, Minister, that some of our hospitals in Wales struggle with keeping infections from spreading, and you know that they have had particular difficulties in ensuring that patients who present with or develop C.difficile, for example, do not transmit that condition to other patients. More than 40 per cent of the nurses in Wales have not had mandatory training in infection control, which is a serious problem that the NHS needs to get to grips with. Could you give the Assembly an assurance that the Government is treating this with the seriousness that it deserves, and that the NHS will get those nurses trained in what is a serious aspect of their continuing professional development?

Jonathan Morgan: Gwyddoch yn dda iawn, Weinidog, fod rhai o’n hysbytai yng Nghymru yn cael anhawster i atal heintiau rhag lledaenu, a gwn iddynt gael anawsterau arbennig wrth sicrhau na fydd cleifion sy’n dod i mewn gyda C.difficile, neu sy’n datblygu C.difficile, er enghraifft, yn trosglwyddo’r cyflwr hwnnw i gleifion eraill. Mae dros 40 y cant o’r nyrsys yng Nghymru heb gael hyfforddiant gorfodol ar reoli heintiau, sy’n broblem ddifrifol y mae angen i’r GIG fynd i’r afael â hi. A allech roi sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad fod y Llywodraeth yn trin hyn gyda’r difrifoldeb y mae’n ei haeddu, ac y bydd y GIG yn sicrhau bod y nyrsys hynny’n cael hyfforddiant yn yr hyn sy’n agwedd ddifrifol ar eu datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus?

Edwina Hart: Thank you for raising this today, Jonathan. I will take the opportunity to discuss with the chief nursing officer what is happening across the board in the NHS, and I will be delighted to update Members by way of a letter.

Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am godi hyn heddiw, Jonathan. Byddaf yn achub ar y cyfle i drafod gyda’r prif swyddog nyrsio yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn gyffredinol ar draws y GIG, a bydd yn bleser gennyf roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Aelodau ar ffurf llythyr.

Irene James: Many healthcare support Irene James: Hoffai nifer o weithwyr

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workers would like to continue their professional development by training to be nurses. However, some will feel daunted by the academic aspects of the course, having been out of formal education for some time. I know that some institutions run access to nursing courses, so what can we do to make sure that individuals are aware that these courses exist?

cymorth gofal iechyd barhau eu datblygiad proffesiynol drwy gael hyfforddiant i fod yn nyrsys. Fodd bynnag, mae agweddau academaidd y cwrs yn codi ofn ar rai, a hwythau wedi bod allan o addysg ffurfiol ers tro. Gwn fod rhai sefydliadau’n cynnal cyrsiau mynediad i nyrsio, felly, beth allwn ni ei wneud i sicrhau bod unigolion yn ymwybodol fod y cyrsiau hyn yn bodoli?

Edwina Hart: I will make inquiries to see what information we have put out, but I recognise the issue that you have raised with me: sometimes, when you have been doing a job and have been out of academic life and are not sure what to do, it is quite difficult. We must think about what more we can do to encourage people who are already in the system, and are enjoying their current role and function, to have a process through to other jobs. I will certainly discuss with officials how we can improve such issues.

Edwina Hart: Gwnaf ymholiadau i weld pa wybodaeth yr ydym wedi’i darparu, ond yr wyf yn cydnabod y mater yr ydych wedi’i godi gyda mi: weithiau, pan fyddwch wedi bod mewn swydd ac wedi allan o fywyd academaidd a heb fod yn siŵr beth i’w wneud, mae’n bur anodd. Rhaid inni ystyried beth arall y gallwn ei wneud i annog pobl sydd eisoes yn y gyfundrefn, ac sy’n mwynhau eu rôl a’u swyddogaeth bresennol, i symud ymlaen i swyddi eraill. Byddaf yn sicr yn trafod gyda swyddogion sut y gallwn wella materion o’r fath.

Lymphoedema Services Gwasanaethau Lymffoedema

Q6 Janice Gregory: Will the Minister make a statement on lymphoedema services in Wales? OAQ(3)1051(HSS)

C6 Janice Gregory: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am wasanaethau lymffoedema yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1051(HSS)

Edwina Hart: I wrote to all Assembly Members on this issue on 9 April. I have now received a draft strategy for lymphoedema services in Wales and have issued it for consultation. This consultation is due to finish on 30 July.

Edwina Hart: Ysgrifennais at bob Aelod Cynulliad ar y mater hwn ar 9 Ebrill. Erbyn hyn yr wyf wedi cael strategaeth ddrafft ar wasanaethau lymffoedema yng Nghymru ac wedi ei chyhoeddi ar gyfer ymgynghori. Mae’r ymgynghoriad i fod i ddod i ben ar 30 Gorffennaf.

Janice Gregory: Thank you for your reply, Minister, and also for the consultation, which is about a new strategy to strengthen lymphoedema services. Your announcement on that consultation matches the positive and constructive comments that you made in replying to the short debate that I introduced on this subject last May, which, no doubt, you will remember.

Janice Gregory: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, Weinidog, a hefyd am yr ymgynghoriad, sy’n edrych ar strategaeth newydd i gryfhau gwasanaethau lymffoedema. Mae eich cyhoeddiad am yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw yn cyd-fynd â’r sylwadau cadarnhaol ac adeiladol a wnaethoch wrth ymateb i’r ddadl fer a gyflwynais ar y mater hwn fis Mai diwethaf, a byddwch, mae’n siŵr, yn cofio honno.

1.50 p.m.

I would hope that I speak for everyone who contributed to that debate in congratulating you on bringing forward these much-needed proposals, which are designed to spread best

Byddwn yn gobeithio fy mod yn siarad ar ran pawb a gyfrannodd at y ddadl honno wrth eich llongyfarch am ddod gerbron â’r cynigion hyn y mae mawr eu hangen. Fe’u

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practice across Wales. Would you agree that the work done in this area represents a striking example of the role of nurses in contributing to the development of new and effective methods of treatment within the health service, and that that should be more widely recognised?

bwriadwyd i ledaenu’r arferion gorau ar draws Cymru. A fyddech yn cytuno bod y gwaith a wnaethpwyd yn y maes hwn yn enghraifft nodedig o rôl nyrsys wrth gyfrannu at ddatblygu dulliau trin newydd ac effeithiol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac y dylai hynny gael ei gydnabod yn fwy eang?

Edwina Hart: I agree. I well recall your short debate, and I think that many of us in the Chamber had already had discussions with lymphoedema nurses about the excellent work that they were undertaking, and how they felt that there should be a more strategic context to the work that they did. They are central to developing and delivering new and innovative services, and I would encourage nurses to present at conferences in Wales, the UK, and throughout the world, to showcase what they are doing. The chief nursing officer holds a biannual showcase conference for that purpose, and I would encourage them to become involved in that.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn cytuno. Cofiaf eich dadl fer yn dda, a chredaf fod nifer ohonom yn y Siambr eisoes wedi cael trafodaethau bryd hynny gyda nyrsys lymffoedema am y gwaith rhagorol yr oeddent yn ei wneud, a sut y teimlent y dylai fod cyd-destun mwy strategol i’r gwaith a wnaent. Maent yn ganolog i ddatblygu gwasanaethau newydd ac arloesol a’u rhoi ar waith, a byddwn yn annog nyrsys i fod yn bresennol mewn cynadleddau yng Nghymru, y DU, ac ar draws y byd, i arddangos yr hyn y maent yn ei wneud. Bydd y prif swyddog nyrsio yn cynnal cynhadledd arddangos i’r diben hwnnw bob dwy flynedd, a byddwn yn eu hannog i gyfrannu ati.

David Melding: Minister, I know that many of us have taken an interest over the years in this particular service, often because we have had to talk to patients who feel that the current service is deficient, particularly for non-cancer-related lymphoedema. Do you agree that it is the implementation of your strategy that is key? A key test will be whether the services for such patients is improved, and whether we can then go back to our constituents and say that they can now have reasonable access to proper lymphoedema care.

David Melding: Weinidog, gwn fod nifer ohonom wedi cymryd diddordeb yn y gwasanaeth neilltuol hwn dros y blynyddoedd, yn aml am ei bod yn rhaid inni siarad â chleifion sy’n teimlo bod y gwasanaeth presennol yn ddiffygiol, yn enwedig ar gyfer lymffoedema nad yw’n ganseraidd. A ydych yn cytuno mai rhoi eich strategaeth ar waith yw’r peth allweddol? Un prawf allweddol fydd a gaiff y gwasanaethau i gleifion o’r fath eu gwella, ac a allwn fynd yn ôl wedyn at ein hetholwyr a dweud y gallant bellach gael mynediad rhesymol i ofal lymffoedema iawn.

Edwina Hart: As a result of our debate and the interest that has been taken in this by Members this year, we are starting to see improvements in services across Wales. People are thinking more about what services need to be provided. We have done quite a lot of work with the Welsh Association of Lymphoedema Specialists on this, and that will continue as we go through the consultation and get the specialist plans. The proof of the pudding will be in how patients will be able to access those services. I have felt strongly, as have you, that non-cancer-related lymphoedema was very much the poor relation in service provision, and there

Edwina Hart: O ganlyniad i’n dadl a’r diddordeb yn hyn gan Aelodau eleni, yr ydym yn dechrau gweld gwelliannau mewn gwasanaethau ar draws Cymru. Mae pobl yn meddwl mwy am ba wasanaethau y mae angen eu darparu. Yr ydym wedi gwneud cryn lawer o waith gyda Chymdeithas Arbenigwyr Lymffoedema Cymru ar hyn, a bydd hynny’n parhau wrth inni fynd drwy’r ymgynghoriad a chael y cynlluniau arbenigol. Wrth ei flas y mae profi pwdin, a bydd yn rhaid gweld sut y gall cleifion gael y gwasanaethau hynny. Yr wyf fi, fel chithau, wedi teimlo’n gryf mai perthynas dlawd oedd lymffoedema nad yw’n ganseraidd yn y

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was a concentration on cancer-related lymphoedema. We have to redress the balance. It will be interesting, when we get our proposals up and running and see how we can implement the strategy, to have, 12 or 24 months on, a reality check as to what is happening on the ground.

ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau, a bod y ddarpariaeth yn canolbwyntio ar lymffoedema canseraidd. Rhaid inni unioni’r cydbwysedd. Pan fydd ein cynigion ar waith a phan welwn sut y mae modd gweithredu’r strategaeth, bydd yn ddiddorol gwirio’r hyn sy’n digwydd mewn gwirionedd ar lawr gwlad 12 neu 24 mis yn ddiweddarach.

Bethan Jenkins: Mae’n glir fod loteri cod post yn bodoli o ran gwasanaethau lymffoedema, a chafodd hynny ei bortreadu’n glir gan Janice Gregory. Croesawaf yr ymgynghoriad ar y mater. A all y Gweinidog danlinellu yr hyn y gall gael ei wneud cyn rhoi polisi newydd ar waith er mwyn cydnabod pob agwedd ar lymffoedema ymhob ffordd a sicrhau bod gwasanaethau ar gael ar lawr gwlad?

Bethan Jenkins: It is clear that there is a postcode lottery for lymphoedema services, as was clearly portrayed by Janice Gregory. I welcome the consultation on the matter. Can the Minister outline what can be done before putting a new policy in place in order to recognise all forms of lymphoedema and to ensure that services are available on the ground?

Edwina Hart: I think that I partly answered your question in my response to David Melding, because, by discussing lymphoedema and having a consultation document, we have already kick-started some of the issues around lymphoedema services in the NHS, and we are seeing some improvements.

Edwina Hart: Credaf imi ateb eich cwestiwn yn rhannol yn fy ymateb i David Melding, oherwydd drwy drafod lymffoedema a chael dogfen ymgynghori yr ydym eisoes wedi rhoi cychwyn i rai o’r problemau’n ymwneud â gwasanaethau lymffoedema yn y GIG, ac yr ydym yn gweld rhai gwelliannau.

Priorities Blaenoriaethau

Q7 Jenny Randerson: Will the Minister make a statement on her priorities for the next six months? OAQ(3)1005(HSS)

C7 Jenny Randerson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y chwe mis nesaf? OAQ(3)1005(HSS)

Edwina Hart: My priority for the next six months is to continue with the implementation of the re-organisation of the NHS in Wales and, in the process, to make the necessary improvements to health services. One of my most important priorities is to ensure business continuity during this period.

Edwina Hart: Fy mlaenoriaeth am y chwe mis nesaf yw parhau i weithredu ad-drefnu’r GIG yng Nghymru, ac yn y broses wneud y gwelliannau angenrheidiol yn y gwasanaethau iechyd. Un o’m blaenoriaethau pwysicaf yw sicrhau parhad busnes yn ystod y cyfnod hwn.

Jenny Randerson: My colleague, Mick Bates, has already mentioned this afternoon the importance of multiple sclerosis as an issue for many people throughout Wales. One problem is the low level of understanding of the symptoms of MS, and of the age groups affected by it. That low level of understanding is among GPs and health professionals. Will you consider reviewing the information that is given to GPs about the

Jenny Randerson: Mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Mick Bates, eisoes wedi crybwyll pwysigrwydd sglerosis ymledol y prynhawn yma fel problem i lawer o bobl ledled Cymru. Un broblem yw’r lefel isel o ddealltwriaeth o symptomau MS, a’r grwpiau oed y mae’n effeithio arnynt. Mae’r lefel isel honno o ddealltwriaeth ymysg meddygon teulu a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol. A wnewch chi ystyried adolygu’r wybodaeth a roddir i

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condition, and using Health Challenge Wales, for example, or other methods at your disposal, to raise awareness throughout Wales of this very serious illness?

feddygon teulu am y cyflwr, a defnyddio Her Iechyd Cymru, er enghraifft, neu ddulliau eraill sydd ar gael ichi, i gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth ledled Cymru o’r salwch hynod ddifrifol hwn?

Edwina Hart: I am happy to agree to your request. The answer is ‘yes’.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn hapus i gytuno i’ch cais. Yr ateb yw ‘gwnaf’.

Helen Mary Jones: Minister, you will be aware that, regrettably, we have recently had an outbreak of measles in the Llanelli area. When you are considering your priorities for the next six months, I urge you to take steps to further encourage parents and carers to take up the MMR vaccine, to prevent further outbreaks. It is a matter of particular concern that this has happened in one of our poorer communities, where perhaps the level of awareness of the importance of the vaccine, and particularly of the second dose, is not high.

Helen Mary Jones: Weinidog, gwyddoch ein bod yn ddiweddar, yn anffodus, wedi cael nifer o achosion o’r frech goch yn ardal Llanelli. Pan fyddwch yn ystyried eich blaenoriaethau am y chwe mis nesaf, fe’ch anogaf i gymryd camau i annog rhieni a gofalwyr ymhellach i fanteisio ar y brechlyn MMR, er mwyn atal achosion pellach. Mae’n fater o bryder neilltuol fod hyn wedi digwydd yn un o’n cymunedau tlotaf, lle nad yw lefel yr ymwybyddiaeth o bwysigrwydd y brechlyn, a’r ail ddos yn arbennig, yn uchel efallai.

Edwina Hart: There is a real issue for us in relation to MMR vaccine—it has been raised in the Chamber previously—and the scares that we had some years ago that it was not safe. That has definitely had an impact on people’s psyches in making these decisions. A letter was sent to everyone in the affected community in your constituency encouraging them to take up the vaccine. Supporting promotional material was also produced and local community nurses have been asked to raise awareness among at-risk groups—children who have not received the vaccine or who have not completed the course of vaccination. We probably need to undertake further work on this and I will refer your comments to the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, who is also concerned about uptake.

Edwina Hart: Mae yna fater gwirioneddol inni mewn cysylltiad â’r brechlyn MMR—mae wedi ei godi yn y Siambr o’r blaen—a’r codi ofn a welwyd rai blynyddoedd yn ôl nad oedd yn ddiogel. Mae hynny’n bendant wedi effeithio ar seici pobl wrth iddynt wneud y penderfyniadau hyn. Anfonwyd llythyr at bawb yn y gymuned yr effeithir arni yn eich etholaeth chi i’w hannog i fanteisio ar y brechlyn. Cynhyrchwyd deunydd hyrwyddo ategol hefyd a gofynnwyd i nyrsys cymunedol lleol gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith grwpiau sydd mewn perygl—plant nad ydynt wedi cael y brechlyn neu nad ydynt wedi cwblhau’r cwrs brechu. Mae’n debyg bod angen inni wneud gwaith pellach ar hyn a byddaf yn cyfeirio eich sylwadau at Brif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru, sydd hefyd yn pryderu am y niferoedd sy’n manteisio ar y brechlyn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Over the next six months, Minister, I hope that you will focus on ambulance response times. Over the past six months, we have seen some of the most lamentable response times since this institution was established. I am sure that you are aware of a letter that was sent to you within the last few weeks from constituents of mine, Mr and Mrs Pritchard, regarding their traumatic experience of waiting for an ambulance to convey Mr Pritchard to the

Andrew R.T. Davies: Dros y chwe mis nesaf, Weinidog, gobeithio y byddwch yn canolbwyntio ar amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans. Dros y chwe mis diwethaf yr ydym wedi gweld rhai o’r amseroedd ymateb mwyaf truenus ers ffurfio’r sefydliad hwn. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol o lythyr a anfonwyd atoch yn yr wythnosau diwethaf gan etholwyr o’m hetholaeth i, Mr a Mrs Pritchard, ynglŷn â’u profiad trawmatig yn disgwyl am ambiwlans i gludo Mr Pritchard i

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Royal Glamorgan Hospital after his third heart attack. The auditor general has also commented on the ability of hospitals to admit patients and get rid of the ambulances so that they are not queued up outside the accident and emergency department. Do you agree that a key problem in relation to ambulance response times relates to the transfer of patients into hospitals and that the lack of hospital beds is a key issue in causing these delays in transfer?

Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg ar ôl ei drydydd trawiad ar y galon. Mae’r archwiliwr cyffredinol hefyd wedi gwneud sylwadau am allu ysbytai i dderbyn cleifion a chael gwared o’r cerbydau ambiwlans fel na fyddant yn creu ciw y tu allan i’r adran damweiniau ac achosion brys. A ydych yn cytuno mai un broblem allweddol yng nghyswllt amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans yw trosglwyddo cleifion i ysbytai a bod y diffyg gwelyau ysbyty yn fater allweddol sy’n achosi’r oedi hwn wrth drosglwyddo?

Edwina Hart: I do not think that it is anything to do with a lack of hospital beds; that is far too simplistic an analysis of the issues regarding how we deal with ambulances. I will not go into any detail in the Chamber with regard to your constituents’ case, but I regard ambulance response as a serious issue. I have made that clear on several occasions. We have seen improvements within certain areas. Ambulance response times in the south-east still leave a lot to be desired; you only have to look at the recent statistics for Torfaen to see that. This is a priority for the Assembly Government. Working through the plans with accident and emergency departments for how they will deal with ambulances when they come in, and how they go through the system, is also very important. The chief executive of the NHS is working very hard with the chief executives of the trusts to deal with these issues.

Edwina Hart: Ni chredaf ei fod a wnelo o gwbl â diffyg gwelyau ysbyty; mae hynny’n ddadansoddiad llawer rhy syml o’r ystyriaethau ynglŷn â’r ffordd yr ydym yn delio â cherbydau ambiwlans. Nid af i fanylu ar achos eich etholwyr yn y Siambr, ond yr wyf yn ystyried amser ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans yn fater difrifol. Yr wyf wedi gwneud hynny’n glir droeon. Gwelsom welliannau mewn rhai ardaloedd. Mae amseroedd ymateb cerbydau ambiwlans yn y de-ddwyrain yn dal ymhell o fod yn foddhaol; nid oes rhaid ichi ond edrych ar yr ystadegau diweddar am Dor-faen i weld hynny. Mae hyn yn flaenoriaeth i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae gweithio drwy’r cynlluniau gydag adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ar y ffordd y byddant yn delio â cherbydau ambiwlans pan ddônt i mewn, a sut y maent yn mynd drwy’r system, hefyd yn bwysig iawn. Mae prif weithredwr y GIG yn gweithio’n galed iawn gyda phrif weithredwr yr ymddiriedolaethau i ddelio â’r materion hyn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for that answer, Minister. However, time and again, you have come to the Chamber and talked about how hard everyone is working. I am sure that they are working hard, but you have to admit that the response times are deplorable. Time and again, there are problems with hospital admissions. A key development is the role of the first responder, who goes out to the casualty or incident as soon as possible. We welcome that initiative. However, in your press release last week, which talked about improving the safety of staff in the NHS, there was an anomaly with regard to first responders and those working in the community. There is a lack of understanding about attacks on first

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Fodd bynnag, dro ar ôl tro yr ydych wedi dod i’r Siambr a sôn mor galed y mae pawb yn gweithio. Yr wyf yn siŵr eu bod yn gweithio’n galed, ond rhaid ichi gyfaddef bod yr amseroedd ymateb yn resynus. Dro ar ôl tro mae problemau wrth dderbyn cleifion i’r ysbyty. Datblygiad allweddol yw rôl yr ymatebwr cyntaf, sy’n mynd allan at y claf neu’r digwyddiad cyn gynted â phosibl. Croesawn y cynllun hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, yn eich datganiad i’r wasg yr wythnos diwethaf, a soniai am wella diogelwch staff yn y GIG, yr oedd anghysondeb o ran ymatebwyr cyntaf a’r rheini sy’n gweithio yn y gymuned. Mae diffyg dealltwriaeth ynglŷn ag ymosodiadau

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responders in the community, because no national audit has been done. I also suggest that there is hesitation on your part, as you have been unable to bring forward an alarm system that would be monitored centrally, which would provide support for workers in the community and a far more efficient and safer service for the workers involved. Can you give an assurance that you will address these shortfalls in the strategy that you announced last week?

ar ymatebwyr cyntaf yn y gymuned, oherwydd nid oes archwiliad cenedlaethol wedi ei wneud. Awgrymaf hefyd fod petruso ar eich rhan gan nad ydych wedi gallu dod â system larwm gerbron a fyddai’n cael ei monitro’n ganolog, ac yn darparu cymorth i weithwyr yn y gymuned a gwasanaeth llawer mwy effeithlon a diogel i’r gweithwyr dan sylw. A allwch roi sicrwydd y byddwch yn ymdrin â’r diffygion hyn yn y strategaeth a gyhoeddwyd gennych yr wythnos diwethaf?

Edwina Hart: I do not believe that there are any shortfalls in my strategy. I kick-started a strategy on violence and aggression against staff in the NHS and we have taken it forward. David Francis, the chair of Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust, is taking the matter forward with the group. I will have further discussions on the issues this week. We will look at the issue of lone-worker alarm systems and CCTV, and we are taking this through in a constructive manner. I acknowledge that if I had lots of additional cash, I could probably speed up processes, but I take this matter extremely seriously. If you are suggesting in any way that I do not, I will refute it in the Chamber.

Edwina Hart: Ni chredaf fod diffygion yn fy strategaeth. Euthum ati i sbarduno strategaeth ar drais ac ymosodedd yn erbyn staff yn y GIG ac yr ydym wedi ei symud ymlaen. Mae David Francis, cadeirydd Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Caerdydd a’r Fro, yn symud y mater ymlaen gyda’r grŵp. Byddaf yn cael trafodaethau pellach ar y materion yr wythnos hon. Byddwn yn ystyried mater systemau larwm i bobl sy’n gweithio ar eu pen eu hunain, a theledu cylch cyfyng, ac yr ydym yn gweithio ar hyn mewn ffordd adeiladol. Cydnabyddaf, petai gennyf lawer o bres ychwanegol, y gallwn hwyrach gyflymu’r prosesau, ond yr wyf yn cymryd y mater hwn yn eithriadol o ddifrifol. Os ydych yn awgrymu mewn unrhyw ffordd nad ydwyf, byddaf yn gwrthbrofi hynny yn y Siambr.

General Practice in the NHS Ymarfer Cyffredinol yn y GIG

Q8 Chris Franks: Will the Minister make a statement on general practice in the NHS in Wales? OAQ(3)1030(HSS)

C8 Chris Franks: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ymarfer cyffredinol yn y GIG yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1030(HSS)

Edwina Hart: General practice has undergone substantial changes since the introduction of the new contract in April 2004. I believe that it is time to take stock. That will be done in the context of the reorganisation of the NHS and the development of a new primary and community healthcare strategy.

Edwina Hart: Mae ymarfer cyffredinol wedi mynd drwy newidiadau sylweddol ers cyflwyno’r contract newydd ym mis Ebrill 2004. Credaf ei bod yn bryd cymryd stoc. Gwneir hynny yng nghyd-destun ad-drefnu’r GIG a’r gwaith o ddatblygu strategaeth gofal iechyd sylfaenol a chymunedol newydd.

Chris Franks: Thank you, Minister; I am delighted that the matter is under review. I also welcome the fact that health spending in general in Wales has increased since devolution. However, according to the Royal College of Nursing Cymru, spending on the training and professional development of nurses has decreased over the last few years

Chris Franks: Diolch ichi, Weinidog; yr wyf wrth fy modd fod y mater yn cael ei adolygu. Croesawaf hefyd y ffaith fod gwariant ar iechyd yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru wedi cynyddu ers datganoli. Fodd bynnag, yn ôl Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys, Cymru, mae’r gwariant ar hyfforddiant a datblygiad proffesiynol nyrsys wedi gostwng dros y

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and the number of days allocated to professional development for practice nurses has also reduced since 2005. There has been a theme this afternoon running across a number of questions, which shows the depth of concern regarding the training of practice nurses. I appreciate that NHS bodies are prioritising their resources, which are scarce and will no doubt become scarcer next year. However, what steps can be taken to ensure that practice nurses receive better levels of training and professional development? How are we ensuring that practice nurses develop their expertise?

blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac y mae nifer y diwrnodau a neilltuir i ddatblygiad proffesiynol ar gyfer nyrsys practis hefyd wedi gostwng er 2005. Cafwyd thema y prynhawn yma yn rhedeg ar draws nifer o gwestiynau, sy’n dangos dyfnder y pryder ynglŷn â hyfforddi nyrsys practis. Sylweddolaf fod cyrff GIG yn blaenoriaethu eu hadnoddau, sy’n brin ac a fydd yn sicr yn brinnach flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, pa gamau y gellir eu cymryd i sicrhau bod nyrsys practis yn cael gwell lefelau hyfforddiant a datblygiad proffesiynol? Sut yr ydym yn sicrhau bod nyrsys practis yn datblygu eu harbenigedd?

2.00 p.m.

Edwina Hart: As I indicated in answer to a previous question, I do not want to pre-empt my consultation on the community nursing strategy, which goes to the heart of three issues relating to the development of practice nursing.

Edwina Hart: Fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i gwestiwn blaenorol, nid wyf am achub y blaen ar fy ymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth nyrsio cymunedol, sy’n mynd at wraidd tri mater mewn cysylltiad â datblygiad nyrsys practis.

Practice nurses are not necessarily my employees; they are the employees of GPs, some of whom are independent contractors to the NHS. Therefore, we have to be mindful of what we are talking about.

Nid yw nyrsys practis yn gyflogeion imi o angenrheidrwydd; maent yn gyflogeion i feddygon teulu, rai ohonynt yn gontractwyr annibynnol i’r GIG. Felly, rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o’r hyn yr ydym yn siarad amdano.

On the Welsh Assembly Government’s funding of specialist practice qualifications and general practice nursing, the number of funded places has increased from 2008-09 to 2009-10 and, in addition to those full-time programmes, the Welsh Assembly Government funds community nursing models. There are sometimes issues relating to the release of practice nurses, and whether they should receive paid release and so on, but such issues are totally out of my control.

O ran proses Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o ariannu cymwysterau practis arbenigol a nyrsio practis cyffredinol, mae nifer y lleoedd a ariennir wedi cynyddu rhwng 2008-09 a 2009-10, ac yn ogystal â’r rhaglenni amser llawn hynny mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ariannu modelau nyrsio cymunedol hefyd. Mae yna broblemau weithiau’n ymwneud â rhyddhau nyrsys practis, ac a ddylent gael eu talu am gael eu rhyddhau, ac ati, ond mae problemau o’r fath y tu hwnt i’m rheolaeth yn llwyr.

Alun Cairns: Access to primary care is the main form of access to the health service by any individual, and GP services are at the forefront of such care. Many individuals will access GP services quickly and efficiently should they need to see a doctor urgently. On the other hand, individuals who do not need to see a doctor urgently, perhaps about many other ailments, and who are prepared to make an appointment often have to wait two to four

Alun Cairns: Gofal sylfaenol yw’r prif lwybr i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, ac mae gwasanaethau meddygon teulu ar flaen y gad o safbwynt gofal felly. Bydd nifer o unigolion yn gallu cael gwasanaethau meddygon teulu yn gyflym ac yn effeithlos bydd arnynt angen gweld meddyg ar frys. Ar y llaw arall, rhaid i unigolion nad ydynt am weld meddyg ar frys, ynglŷn â nifer o anhwylderau eraill efallai ac sy’n fodlon

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weeks or even longer to see a doctor, particularly one of their choice. That is the case even when GPs’ holidays are not taken into account and when the relevant GP is present during all that time. Do you think that that is acceptable and what message are you sending to practice managers and to GP practices to ensure that they make doctors available to see patients urgently but also to deal with other, less urgent, ailments in a timely way?

trefnu apwyntiad, aros yn aml rhwng pythefnos a phedair wythnos neu hyd yn oed mwy i weld meddyg, yn enwedig i weld meddyg o’u dewis. Mae hyn yn wir hyd yn oed heb ystyried gwyliau meddygon teulu, a phan fydd y meddyg teulu perthnasol yn bresennol drwy gydol y amser hwnnw. A ydych yn credu bod hyn yn dderbyniol, a pha neges yr ydych yn ei chyfleu i reolwyr practisau ac i bractisau meddygon teulu er mwyn sicrhau bod ganddynt feddygon ar gael i weld cleifion ar frys, ond hefyd i ddelio ag anhwylderau eraill, llai brys, yn amserol?

Edwina Hart: You illustrate the problems that exist in some practices although not in all practices in Wales, as you seemed to indicate. However, to answer your question, I do not think that it is acceptable. I have been speaking to officials in the NHS about this because a large volume of complaints have come through, all of which I consider, about making an appointment and how long you must wait if you wish to see a particular doctor and so on. In response to William Graham’s earlier question, this issue is particularly pertinent to women who wish to see a female doctor about certain issues. They have to wait a long time and that is not acceptable.

Edwina Hart: Yr ydych yn tynnu sylw at broblemau sy’n bod mewn rhai practisau ac nid ym mhob practis yng Nghymru, fel yr ymddengys eich bod yn ei awgrymu. Fodd bynnag, i ateb eich cwestiwn, nid wyf yn credu bod hyn yn dderbyniol. Yr wyf wedi bod yn siarad â swyddogion yn y GIG ynghylch hyn gan fod llawer iawn o gwynion wedi’u cyflwyno, a byddaf yn ystyried bob un ohonynt, ynghylch trefnu apwyntiad a pha mor hir y mae’n rhaid ichi aros i weld meddyg penodol, ac ati. I ateb cwestiwn William Graham yn gynharach, mae’r mater hwn yn hynod o berthnasol i fenywod sy’n dymuno gweld meddyg benywaidd i drafod materion penodol. Rhaid iddynt aros am amser hir ac nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol.

This is a key area that the new local health boards will have to consider. There must be recognition of the fact that people need to go to work, they have lives to lead, and they need timely appointments in primary care. Things are not as they were 50 years ago, and I suggest that some people have to move with the times.

Mae hwn yn faes hollbwysig y bydd yn rhaid i’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd ei ystyried. Rhaid cydnabod y ffaith fod angen i bobl fynd i’r gwaith, mae ganddynt fywydau i’w byw, ac mae angen apwyntiadau cyfleus arnynt mewn gofal sylfaenol. Nid yw pethau fel yr oeddent 50 mlynedd yn ôl, ac awgrymaf y dylai rhai pobl symud gyda’r oes.

Peter Black: You will be aware of the tragic death of Dr Philip Evans in June 2001 in Rhosili in Gower. You may also be aware that, following his tragic death, the British Medical Association in Wales has called for a properly funded occupational health service for GPs to help them to deal with the pressures of the job. You will know how important that is if we are to retain GPs and support them in their work. Do you have any plans to put an occupational health service in place for GPs in Wales and what sort of funding are you looking to provide to ensure

Peter Black: Byddwch yn gwybod am farwolaeth drasig Dr Philip Evans ym mis Mehefin 2001 yn Rhosili ym Mhenrhyn Gŵyr. Efallai eich bod yn gwybod hefyd, yn dilyn ei farwolaeth drasig, fod Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yng Nghymru wedi galw am gyllido gwasanaeth iechyd galwedigaethol yn briodol ar gyfer meddygon teulu i’w helpu i ddelio â phwysau’r swydd. Gwyddoch mor bwysig yw hynny os ydym am gadw ein meddygon teulu a’u cefnogi yn eu gwaith. A oes gennych unrhyw gynlluniau i roi gwasanaeth iechyd galwedigaethol ar

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that it is sustainable? waith ar gyfer meddygon teulu yng Nghymru, a pha fath o gyllid yr ydych yn ystyried ei ddarparu i sicrhau ei fod yn gynaliadwy?

Edwina Hart: I am dealing with the wider issue of how we deal with occupational health in the national health service for its staff, and I will pick up your points in that discussion with officials and other advisers.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn delio â’r mater ehangach, sef sut yr ydym yn delio ag iechyd galwedigaethol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ar gyfer ei staff, a byddaf yn codi eich pwyntiau yn y drafodaeth honno gyda swyddogion a chynghorwyr eraill.

Peter Black: That is reassuring, but will you liaise with the BMA on this to ensure that there is a service specifically for GPs? Often, primary care professionals are forgotten when you set up a surgery to also cover secondary care.

Peter Black: Mae hynny’n galonogol, ond a wnewch chi gysylltu â Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain ynghylch hyn er mwyn sicrhau bod yna wasanaeth penodol ar gyfer meddygon teulu? Bydd gweithwyr proffesiynol gofal sylfaenol yn mynd yn angof yn aml wrth sefydlu meddygfa i ymdrin â gofal eilaidd hefyd.

Edwina Hart: Thank you for reminding me of that. I am sure that the BMA will not be backwards in coming forwards about this and will place it as an item on its agenda as a result of your question today.

Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am fy atgoffa o hynny. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn barod i fynegi ei barn ar hyn ac y bydd yn rhoi hyn ar ei hagenda o ganlyniad i’ch cwestiwn heddiw.

Clefydau Niwrogyhyrol Neuromuscular Diseases

C9 David Lloyd: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am wasanaethau ar gyfer clefydau niwrogyhyrol? OAQ(3)1055(HSS)

Q9 David Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on services for neuromuscular diseases? OAQ(3)1055(HSS)

Edwina Hart: The implementation over time of the independent review of adult neurosciences, together with the specialised neurosciences standards for children and young people and the care pathways for long-term neurological conditions is being developed. That will, hopefully, lead to improvement in the planning and provision of services for adults and children with neuromuscular conditions.

Edwina Hart: Mae’r broses o roi’r adolygiad annibynnol o wasanaethau niwrowyddorau i oedolion ar waith dros amser, ynghyd â’r safonau niwrowyddorau arbenigol i blant a phobl ifanc a’r llwybrau gofal ar gyfer cyflyrau niwrolegol hirdymor, yn cael ei datblygu. Bydd hynny, gobeithio, yn arwain at wella’r gwaith o gynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau i oedolion a phlant sydd â chyflyrau niwrogyhyrol.

David Lloyd: Byddwch yn ymwybodol o alwadau’r Ymgyrch Dystroffi’r Cyhyrau am fwy o staff arbenigol i gynorthwyo cleifion. Yn dilyn eich ateb blaenorol, pa gynnydd a wnaed o ran y gwaith o greu gwasanaeth arbenigol niwrogyhyrol i Gymru?

David Lloyd: You will be aware that the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign has called for more specialist staff to support patients. Following your previous response, what progress has been made on the work of creating a specialist neuromuscular service for Wales?

Edwina Hart: I am aware of its call and campaign, and it is one area that I have asked officials to prioritise in the development of

Edwina Hart: Gwn am ei galwad a’i hymgyrch, ac y mae’n un maes yr wyf wedi gofyn i’m swyddogion roi blaenoriaeth iddo

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services.

o ran datblygu’r gwasanaethau.

Mark Isherwood: Last night, Minister, we had the inaugural meeting of the cross-party group on neurosciences. It was great to see all members there, and we look forward very much to working with you in the future.

Mark Isherwood: Neithiwr, Weinidog, cawsom gyfarfod cyntaf y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar niwrowyddorau. Yr oedd yn wych gweld pob aelod yn bresennol, ac edrychwn ymlaen yn fawr at weithio gyda chi yn y dyfodol.

The Wales Neurological Alliance is concerned that current neuroscience services, including those for neuromuscular conditions, are inadequate for people of all ages and in all areas of Wales. What assurance can you give me that the outcomes of the neuroscience review implementation projects in north Wales and in mid and west Wales will be mandatory for the local health boards and the proposed joint committee of local health boards and national specialised services—or will they just be guidelines without resources when we reach that point?

Mae Cynghrair Niwrolegol Cymru yn poeni nad yw’r gwasanaethau niwrowyddorau presennol, gan gynnwys y rheiny ar gyfer cyflyrau niwrogyhyrol, yn ddigonol ar gyfer pobl o bob oed ac ym mhob ardal o Gymru. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi imi y bydd yn rhaid i’r byrddau iechyd lleol, a chydbwyllgor arfaethedig y byrddau iechyd lleol a’r gwasanaethau arbenigol cenedlaethol, weithredu canlyniadau prosiectau’r adolygiad niwrowyddorau yn y gogledd ac yn y canolbarth a’r gorllewin—ynteu ai canllawiau’n unigh fyddant heb adnoddau pan gyrhaeddwn y pwynt hwnnw?

Edwina Hart: Presiding Officer, I wonder whether you would forgive me, but I would be grateful if you could check the Record for the first part of the question from Mark Isherwood about my apparent non-attendance at some cross-party group, the implication being that I ignored it. I would be grateful if you would check the Record on that, given my role and responsibility as Minister in relation to those matters.

Edwina Hart: Lywydd, tybed a wnewch chi faddau imi, ond byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech edrych ar y Cofnod ar gyfer rhan gyntaf y cwestiwn gan Mark Isherwood ynghylch fy absenoldeb honedig mewn rhyw grŵp trawsbleidiol. Yr awgrym oedd fy mod wedi’i anwybyddu. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar petaech yn edrych ar y Cofnod ar hyn, o gofio fy rôl a’m cyfrifoldeb fel Gweinidog yng nghyswllt y materion hynny.

Moving on to the other issues, when the recommendations come through, I will look at them, and, if they have budgetary implications and I think that I can add the necessary funds and resources, I will of course do so. However, it is too early to decide how to take these figures forward, and will not comment until I have the reports in front of me.

I symud ymlaen at faterion eraill, pan ddaw’r argymhellion i law byddaf yn edrych arnynt, ac os bydd iddynt oblygiadau cyllideb ac os credaf y gallaf ychwanegu’r arian a’r adnoddau angenrheidiol, wrth gwrs byddaf yn gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhy fuan penderfynu sut i ddwyn y ffigurau hyn ymlaen, ac ni roddaf sylwadau ar hyn nes bydd yr adroddiadau ger fy mron.

The Presiding Officer: None of us at this desk heard anything disorderly from Mark Isherwood. Occasionally we might hear something, but not today. You did not say anything disorderly today, did you?

Y Llywydd: Ni chlywodd neb ohonom wrth y ddesg hon ddim sylwadau amhriodol gan Mark Isherwood. Gallwn glywed rhywbeth o bryd i’w gilydd, ond nid heddiw. Ni ddywedasoch ddim byd amhriodol heddiw, naddo?

Mark Isherwood: No, Presiding Officer. Mark Isherwood: Naddo, Lywydd.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Not yet. [Laughter.] Andrew R.T. Davies: Ddim eto. [Chwerthin.]

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‘Paying for Care in Wales’ ‘Talu am Ofal yng Nghymru’

Q10 Joyce Watson: Will the Minister provide an update on the ‘Paying for Care in Wales’ consultation? OAQ(3)1042(HSS)

C10 Joyce Watson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am yr ymgynghoriad ‘Talu am Ofal yng Nghymru’? OAQ(3)1042(HSS)

The Deputy Minister for Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): We received 160 responses to our consultation, ‘Paying for Care in Wales’, and I will shortly be publishing the consultation report. The next stage is to prepare a Green Paper for Wales on the detailed options for reform, and I hope that that will be issued in the summer.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda Thomas): Cawsom 160 o ymatebion i’n hymgynghoriad ‘Talu am Ofal yng Nghymru’, a byddaf yn cyhoeddi’r adroddiad ymgynghori maes o law. Y cam nesaf yw paratoi Papur Gwyrdd i Gymru ar y dewisiadau manwl ar gyfer diwygio, a gobeithio y caiff hwnnw ei gyhoeddi yn yr haf.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. I look forward to the results of the consultation, together with the implementation of yesterday’s announcements about changes to the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales.

Joyce Watson: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld canlyniadau’r ymgynghoriad, ynghyd â gweithredu’r cyhoeddiadau ddoe ynghylch y newidiadau yn Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru.

Last week, I had the pleasure of visiting a group of young carers in Llanilar in Ceredigion. They were part of the Red Cross young carers project that identifies and supports young people aged eight to 18 in the county who have caring responsibilities at home. It was a fantastic day out, and I met some wonderful young people. There are many more children in Wales who have the same responsibilities who have not been identified, and the Red Cross is undertaking research in schools in Ceredigion to shed light on this issue. Is it not vital that policymakers recognise the emotional impact of caring responsibilities on the development of young people? Will you look into the Red Cross’s research and consider its impact when the findings are published?

Yr wythnos diwethaf cefais y pleser o ymweld â grŵp o ofalwyr ifanc yn Llanilar yng Ngheredigion. Yr oeddent yn rhan o brosiect gofalwyr ifanc y Groes Goch sy’n nodi ac yn cefnogi pobl ifanc rhwng 8 a 18 oed yn y sir sydd â chyfrifoldebau gofalu yn y cartref. Yr oedd yn ddiwrnod gwych, a chyfarfûm â phobl ifanc ryfeddol. Mae llawer mwy o blant yng Nghymru sydd â’r un cyfrifoldebau ac nad ydynt wedi’u nodi, ac mae’r Groes Goch yn gwneud gwaith ymchwil mewn ysgolion yng Ngheredigion i daflu goleuni ar y mater hwn. Onid yw’n hanfodol i lunwyr polisi gydnabod effaith emosiynol cyfrifoldebau gofalu ar ddatblygiad pobl ifanc? A wnewch chi edrych ar waith ymchwil y Groes Goch ac ystyried ei effaith pan gaiff y darganfyddiadau eu cyhoeddi?

Gwenda Thomas: That would perhaps be more appropriate for the proposed LCO on carers that is currently making its way through the scrutiny process, and which embraces the needs of young carers. However, I will look at the Red Cross project. I would be glad to do that.

Gwenda Thomas: Efallai y byddai hynny’n fwy priodol i’r LCO arfaethedig ar ofalwyr sydd wrthi’n mynd drwy’r broses graffu ar hyn o bryd, ac sy’n rhoi sylw i anghenion gofalwyr ifanc. Fodd bynnag, edrychaf ar brosiect y Groes Goch. Byddwn yn falch gwneud hynny.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Deputy Minister, you were at the launch today of the amalgamation

Andrew R.T. Davies: Ddirprwy Weinidog, yr oeddech yn bresennol wrth lansio uno Age

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of Age Concern with Help the Aged. Looking at the ‘Paying for Care in Wales’ strategy document, it talks of actively preventing the loss of independence of elderly people and people in care. One point that came over in the seminar this morning was that retailers are shunning the grey pound and are looking to attract the youth market. Surely, if we are to maintain an inclusive society, we must safeguard the independence of the most vulnerable and promote their worth to society. Do you agree with the aims that Age Concern and Help the Aged have in promoting the cause of elderly people?

Concern a Help the Aged heddiw. O edrych ar y ddogfen strategol ‘Talu am Ofal yng Nghymru’, mae’n trafod mynd ati’n frwd i sicrhau na fydd yr henoed na phobl mewn gofal yn colli eu hannibyniaeth. Un pwynt a godwyd yn y seminar y bore yma oedd bod manwerthwyr yn anwybyddu arian yr henoed ac yn ceisio denu’r farchnad ifanc. Os ydym i gynnal cymdeithas gynhwysol, oni ddylem ddiogelu annibyniaeth y bobl sydd fwyaf agored i niwed, a hyrwyddo mor werthfawr ydynt i gymdeithas? A ydych yn cytuno â nodau Age Concern a Help the Aged o ran hyrwyddo achos yr henoed?

2.10 p.m.

Gwenda Thomas: Yes, indeed. The event this morning was remarkable, and it showed the commitment of both former charities to work together to promote the welfare of older people.

Gwenda Thomas: Yn sicr. Yr oedd y digwyddiad y bore yma yn rhyfeddol, a dangosodd ymrwymiad y ddwy gyn elusen i weithio gyda’i gilydd i hyrwyddo lles pobl hŷn.

Any new system that delivers care must embrace the following: it must promote independence, choice and control for everyone who uses care and support services; it must ensure that everyone can receive the high-quality care and support that they need; it must be affordable for the Government, to individuals and to families in the long term; and it must be fairer and more equitable than the existing system. That was the message that came across clearly from Age Concern Cymru and Help the Aged this morning.

Rhaid i unrhyw system newydd sy’n darparu gofal sicrhau’r canlynol: rhaid iddi hyrwyddo annibyniaeth, dewis a rheolaeth i bawb sy’n defnyddio gwasanaethau gofal a chymorth; rhaid iddi sicrhau y gall pawb gael y gofal a’r cymorth o safon uchel y mae eu hangen arnynt; rhaid iddi fod yn fforddiadwy i’r Llywodraeth, i unigolion ac i deuluoedd yn yr hirdymor; a rhaid iddi fod yn fwy teg ac yn fwy cyfiawn na’r system bresennol. Dyna’r neges yr oedd Age Concern Cymru a Help the Aged yn ei chyfleu y bore yma.

Peter Black: On a wider care issue, what is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to increase the number of specialised respite care facilities for 18 to 65-year-olds, so that adults who have conditions such as multiple sclerosis are not forced to use unsuitable respite facilities that are designed for the elderly?

Peter Black: O ran mater gofal ehangach, beth y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i gynyddu nifer y cyfleusterau gofal seibiant arbenigol ar gyfer pobl rhwng 18 a 65 oed, fel na chaiff oedolion sydd â chyflyrau megis sglerosis ymledol eu gorfodi i ddefnyddio cyfleusterau seibiant anaddas wedi’u cynllunio ar gyfer yr henoed?

Gwenda Thomas: That is more relevant to the proposed LCO on carers as well, Peter. You know that I have committed the Welsh Assembly Government to conduct research into respite care, and that is under way. I will be bringing the proposed LCO back to the Chamber as soon as we hear that it has been successfully agreed upon by the Welsh Affairs Committee. I am sure that that will

Gwenda Thomas: Mae hynny hefyd yn fwy perthnasol i’r LCO arfaethedig ar ofalwyr, Peter. Gwyddoch fy mod wedi ymrwymo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ymchwilio i ofal seibiant, ac mae hynny’n mynd rhagddo. Byddaf yn dod â’r LCO arfaethedig yn ôl gerbron y Siambr cyn gynted ag y byddwn wedi clywed bod y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig wedi ei gytuno. Yr wyf yn siŵr y

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happen. bydd hynny’n digwydd.

Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth

Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport

Y Llywydd: Galwaf ar Eleanor Burnham i ofyn y cwestiwn cyntaf.

The Presiding Officer: I call Eleanor Burnham to ask the first question.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf wedi gofyn y cwestiwn hwn o’r blaen, wrth gwrs, ond a yw’n bosibl cael datganiad, Weinidog, am y cyfyngiadau—

Eleanor Burnham: I have asked this question before, of course, but would it be possible to have a statement, Minister, on the restrictions—

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid yw’n arferol, fel mater o drefn, datgan bod cwestiwn wedi’i ofyn o’r blaen.

The Presiding Officer: Order. It is not usual, as a matter of order, to state that a question has been asked previously.

Eleanor Burnham: O’r gorau, cychwynnaf eto.

Eleanor Burnham: Very well, I shall start again.

Y Llywydd: Y cwbl sydd angen ichi ei wneud yw darllen y cwestiwn fel y mae ar eich papur. Caiff y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ddweud ei fod wedi ei ateb o’r blaen os yw’n dymuno.

The Presiding Officer: All that is required is for you to read the question as it is on your paper. The Deputy First Minister may say that he has answered it before, should he so wish.

Cyfyngiadau Cyflymder ar yr A55 Speed Restrictions on the A55

C1 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y cyfyngiadau cyflymder arfaethedig ar yr A55? OAQ(3)1000(ECT)

Q1 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Minister make a statement on proposed speed restrictions on the A55? OAQ(3)1000(ECT)

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Diolch am y cwestiwn, Eleanor. [Chwerthin.] Nid oes cynigion ar hyn o bryd i newid y cyfyngiadau cyflymder parhaol cyfredol. Caiff cyfyngiadau cyflymder priodol dros dro eu gosod pan wneir gwaith ar y ffordd, a hynny er diogelwch y sawl sy’n gweithio neu’n teithio ar y ffordd.

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Thank you for the question, Eleanor. [Laughter.] There are currently no proposals to alter the existing permanent speed limits. Appropriate temporary speed restrictions are established during road maintenance for the safety of road workers and the travelling public.

Eleanor Burnham: Deallaf hynny, gan fy mod yn teithio ar yr A55 yn aml. Ni wn a welsoch yn y Daily Post yn ddiweddar—ac yr ydym i gyd yn gorfod ei ddarllen yn ddyddiol—restr enfawr o’r gwaith sydd i’w wneud ar yr A55 dros y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae’r gwaith yn golygu y bydd y cyfyngiad cyflymder yn cael ei gwtogi i ryw 40 mya,

Eleanor Burnham: I understand that, since I often travel on the A55. I do not know whether you saw in the Daily Post recently—and we all have to read it daily—a lengthy list of the works to be completed on the A55 over the coming year. The works mean that the speed restriction will be reduced to some 40 mph, and what concerns those people who

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a’r hyn sy’n pryderu pobl sy’n cysylltu â mi, ac o bosibl â chi, yw’r effaith negyddol ar fusnesau, yn enwedig mewn cyfnod anodd fel hwn. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn effeithio hefyd ar deithwyr ac ar dwristiaeth. Fel yr wyf wedi’i ofyn o’r blaen, onid yw’n bosibl gwneud y gwaith hwn dros nos, neu gael gwared ar y glaswellt a gosod concrid yng nghanol y ffordd fel nad oes rhaid torri’r glaswellt bob blwyddyn?

contact me, and possibly you, is the negative impact that will have on businesses, particularly at such a difficult time as this. Naturally, it also has an impact on travellers and on tourists. As I have asked previously, would it not be possible to carry out those works overnight, or even to get rid of the grass and lay concrete in the middle of the road so that the grass does not need cutting every year?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn sicr ynghylch eich pwynt olaf, Eleanor, ac ni wn a fyddai hynny’n beth da ar gyfer ein hymrwymiad i’r amgylchedd. Fel plaid sy’n honni cefnogi gwelliannau i’r amgylchedd, nid wyf yn sicr a fyddai hynny’n cael ei dderbyn gan eich cyd-Aelodau yn y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ychwaith. Wedi dweud hynny, yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod angen cadw’r cydbwysedd rhwng sicrhau llwybr clir ar hyd y ffordd ar y naill law, a sicrhau bod y gwaith cynnal a chadw angenrheidiol, fel torri gwair, yn cael ei wneud ar y llaw arall.

The Deputy First Minister: I am not sure about your last point, Eleanor, and I doubt whether it would be such a good thing given our commitment to the environment. As a party that claims to support improvements to the environment, I am not sure whether your fellow Liberal Democrat Members either would accept that. Having said that, I am aware of the need to maintain a balance between ensuring that the path is clear along the road on the one hand, and ensuring that essential maintenance works, such as grass cutting, is carried out on the other.

Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol mai un o’r problemau yw nad oes llain galed ar yr A55, ac, oherwydd hynny, rhaid cau lonydd weithiau i wneud gwaith. Fodd bynnag, gallaf eich sicrhau bod y swyddogion sy’n paratoi ar gyfer hyn yn ystyried materion fel gwyliau, a’n bod yn ceisio lleihau’r effaith ar bobl sy’n teithio.

I am sure you are aware that one problem on the A55 is the absence of a hard shoulder, and as a result that lanes must sometimes be closed to carry out works. However, I can assure you that the officials who prepare for this do take account of such matters as holidays, and that we do try to reduce the impact on people who travel.

Ann Jones: If not introduced properly, speed restrictions can often cause more accidents than they prevent. I welcome the fact that you say that there are no plans to introduce restrictions, except to address safety issues. If you are going to address safety issues along the A55, will you consider extending the pilot scheme that is currently running at the Penyclip tunnels? I had the opportunity to visit that scheme and to see it in operation, first hand, during recess. I went with PC Andy Collis of the western traffic department, who took me out for the day and told me about the problems that they face. I am sure that if we were to extend this pilot scheme, there would not be a need to have road restrictions, because we would have a system whereby no-one would be waiting on the A55, having broken down, for any length of time, because they would be off the road

Ann Jones: Os na chânt eu cyflwyno’n briodol, gall cyfyngiadau cyflymder yn aml achosi mwy o ddamweiniau yn hytrach na’u hatal. Croesawaf y ffaith eich bod yn dweud nad oes cynlluniau i gyflwyno cyfyngiadau, ac eithrio i roi sylw i faterion diogelwch. Os ydych am roi sylw i faterion diogelwch ar hyd yr A55, a wnewch chi ystyried ymestyn y cynllun peilot sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd yn nhwneli Pen-y-clip? Cefais gyfle i ymweld â’r cynllun hwnnw a’i weld ar waith â’m llygaid fy hun yn ystod y toriad. Euthum gyda PC Andy Collis o adran draffig y gorllewin, a threuliais ddiwrnod gydag ef yn gwrando ar rai o’r problemau sy’n eu hwynebu. Yr wyf yn sicr, petaem yn ymestyn y cynllun peilot hwn, na fyddai angen cael cyfyngiadau ar y ffyrdd, oherwydd byddai gennym system lle na fyddai neb yn aros ar yr A55, ar ôl torri i lawr, am unrhyw amser o

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and safe, and the rest of the motorists on the A55 would be safe as well. Will you look to extend that pilot scheme, please?

gwbl, oherwydd byddent oddi ar y ffordd ac yn ddiogel, a byddai gweddill y modurwyr ar yr A55 yn ddiogel hefyd. A wnewch chi edrych ar ymestyn y cynllun peilot hwnnw, os gwelwch yn dda?

The Deputy First Minister: Obviously, we want to evaluate that pilot scheme when it is concluded, but provided that it shows that there is real merit in doing this work, the intention is to look at extending the scheme to other parts of the A55 and perhaps to other parts of the road network, going forward.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yn amlwg, yr ydym am werthuso’r cynllun peilot hwnnw pan fydd wedi dod i ben, ond os bydd yn dangos bod gwir werth mewn gwneud y gwaith hwn, y bwriad yw edrych ar ymestyn y cynllun i rannau eraill o’r A55, ac o bosibl i rannau eraill o’r rhwydwaith ffyrdd, yn y dyfodol.

Brynle Williams: May we discuss this a bit further? We have discussed the fact that Rhuallt hill needs a crawler lane many times. The one thing that I would urge you to do is to implement a speed restriction for caravans and trailers on the westerly lanes in particular, which go down the hill. At this time of the year, we are constantly seeing accidents and we have had fatalities there. This is one area where we need a speed restriction on towing vehicles to be applied as soon as possible. Will you look into that?

Brynle Williams: A gawn ni drafod hyn ychydig yn fwy? Yr ydym wedi trafod droeon y ffaith fod angen lôn ymlusgo ar Allt Rhuallt. Un peth y byddwn yn eich annog i’w wneud yw gosod cyfyngiad cyflymder ar gyfer carafannau ac ôl-gerbydau ar y lonydd i’r gorllewin, yn benodol, sy’n mynd i lawr yr allt. Ar yr adeg hon o’r flwyddyn gwelwn ddamweiniau’n gyson ac yr ydym wedi cael damweiniau angheuol yno. Dyma un ardal lle mae angen gosod cyfyngiad cyflymder ar gyfer cerbydau sy’n tynnu ôl-gerbydau cyn gynted â phosibl. A wnewch chi ymchwilio i hynny?

The Deputy First Minister: I am not aware, Brynle, that my officials or others have looked at introducing a speed limit on the Rhuallt hill section going west, although I do understand the point that you are making about safety. I can tell you that the North Wales Trunk Road Agency is currently carrying out a study to establish if there are any site-specific safety issues at Rhuallt hill. A revised layout to include a crawler lane, possible lay-by closures, improved signage and vehicle restrictions are among the options likely to be considered as part of that work. I will obviously discuss with the agency the point that you have put to me and I will write to you on it.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn ymwybodol, Brynle, fod fy swyddogion nac eraill wedi edrych ar gyflwyno cyfyngiad cyflymder ar y rhan o Allt Rhuallt i’r gorllewin, er fy mod yn deal y pwynt a wnewch am ddiogelwch. Gallaf ddweud wrthych fod Asiantaeth Cefnffyrdd Gogledd Cymru yn gwneud astudiaeth ar hyn o bryd i sefydlu a oes yna broblemau diogelwch sy’n benodol i safle Allt Rhuallt. Mae cynllun diwygiedig i gynnwys lôn ymlusgo, posibilrwydd cau’r cilfannau, gwell arwyddion a chyfyngiadau ar gerbydau ymhlith y dewisiadau sy’n debygol o gael eu hystyried fel rhan o’r gwaith hwnnw. Yn amlwg, byddaf yn sôn wrth yr asiantaeth am y pwynt a godwyd gennych, ac fe ysgrifennaf atoch am hynny.

Janet Ryder: You are obviously being criticised for the work that you are carrying out on the A55 and you would be heavily criticised if you did not carry out any work on the A55. The work around the junction at St Asaph is going to cause delays for some

Janet Ryder: Yr ydych yn amlwg yn cael eich beirniadu am y gwaith yr ydych yn ei wneud ar yr A55, ond byddech yn cael eich beirniadu’n hallt pe na byddech yn gwneud dim gwaith ar yr A55. Mae’r gwaith yn ardal y gyffordd yn Llanelwy yn mynd i achosi

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time. Can you reassure people that you will ensure that that work is carried out as speedily as possible, because the traffic trying to join the A55 creates a great back-up through the town of St Asaph? Will you also confirm, Deputy First Minister, that you have no intention of concreting over the grass banks of the A55 and condemning people to drive along concrete valleys?

oedi am gryn amser. A allwch chi gysuro pobl drwy sicrhau bod y gwaith yn cael ei wneud mor gyflym â phosibl, oherwydd mae’r traffig sy’n ceisio ymuno â’r A55 yn creu tagfeydd sylweddol yn nhref Llanelwy? A wnewch chi hefyd gadarnhau, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, nad oes gennych fwriad o gwbl i osod concrid dros y llethrau porfa ar ochrau’r A55 gan gondemnio pobl i yrru ar hyd dyffrynnoedd concrid?

The Deputy First Minister: I can confirm that I have no intention of doing what you mentioned in that final point, Janet. I can also confirm your point about the necessary safety works that are being carried out at St Asaph. I understand the short-term disruption that those works are causing—I think that all of us who represent constituencies in north Wales are aware of it. I can assure you that that work will be completed as swiftly and as speedily as practically possible.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Gallaf gadarnhau nad oes gennyf fwriad o gwbl i wneud yr hyn y soniech amdano yn y pwnt olaf hwnnw, Janet. Gallaf hefyd gadarnhau eich pwynt am y gwaith diogelwch angenrheidiol sydd ar waith yn Llanelwy. Deallaf yr anhawster tymor byr y mae’r gwaith hwn yn ei achosi—credaf fod pob un ohonom sy’n cynrychioli etholaethau yn y gogledd yn ymwybodol o hyn. Gallaf eich sicrhau y bydd y gwaith hwnnw’n cael ei gwblhau mor fuan ac mor gyflym â phosibl.

Regeneration of the Western Valleys Adfywio Cymoedd y Gorllewin

Q2 Alun Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the regeneration of the western Valleys? OAQ(3)0980(ECT)

C2 Alun Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am adfywio Cymoedd y gorllewin? OAQ(3)0980(ECT)

The Deputy Minister for Regeneration (Leighton Andrews): Following my announcement of the intention to develop the western Valleys as a strategic regeneration area, my officials have been working with local authority officers and local stakeholders to develop a focused action plan for sustainable regeneration in this part of south Wales.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio (Leighton Andrews): Yn dilyn fy nghyhoeddiad am y bwriad i ddatblygu Cymoedd y gorllewin fel ardal adfywio strategol, mae fy swyddogion wedi bod yn gweithio gyda swyddogion awdurdodau lleol a rhanddeiliaid lleol i ddatblygu cynllun gweithredu i ganolbwyntio’n bendant ar adfywio cynaliadwy ar gyfer y rhan hon o’r de.

Alun Davies: As someone from western Gwent, I have a keen interest in these matters.

Alun Davies: Fel rhywun sy’n hanu o orllewin Gwent, mae gennyf gryn ddiddordeb yn y materion hyn.

I was lucky enough to open a new business centre in Llanelli last week. I took the opportunity, while I was there meeting people who are locating businesses in that part of Llanelli for what is, sometimes, the first time, to discuss with Carmarthenshire County Council how the strategic regeneration that you are developing in the western Valleys will help it to drive forward economic growth and regeneration beyond

Yr oeddwn yn ddigon ffodus i gael agor canolfan fusnes newydd yn Llanelli yr wythnos diwethaf. Manteisiais ar y cyfle, pan oeddwn yno’n cwrdd â phobl sy’n lleoli busnesau yn y rhan honno o Lanelli, rai ohonynt am y tro cyntaf, i drafod gyda Chyngor Sir Caerfyrddin sut y byddai’r adfywio strategol yr ydych yn ei ddatblygu yng Nghymoedd y gorllewin yn helpu gyrru adfywiad a thwf economaidd y tu hwnt i ben

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the western end of the M4 and to ensure that the valleys of Carmarthenshire are a focus of your regeneration policies. Deputy First Minister, can you update us this afternoon on the discussions that you have been having with Carmarthenshire County Council on how the western Valleys initiative will be realised in areas such as the Gwendraeth valley in the Llanelli constituency, so that the people there can understand how you are going to be driving forward regeneration and economic growth in these areas?

gorllewinol yr M4 ac i sicrhau bod cymoedd sir Gaerfyrddin yn ffocws i’ch polisïau adfywio. Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, a allwch roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni y prynhawn yma am y trafodaethau yr ydych wedi eu cael gyda Chyngor Sir Caerfyrddin am y modd y gallai menter Cymoedd y gorllewin gael ei gwireddu mewn ardaloedd megis cwm Gwendraeth yn etholaeth Llanelli, fel y gall y bobl yno ddeall sut y byddwch yn gyrru adfywiad a thwf economaidd yn yr ardaloedd hyn?

2.20 p.m.

Leighton Andrews: Since I met with you and Nia Griffith MP in the Gwendraeth valley a few weeks ago, we have had, I think, the first meeting of the regeneration board for that area, and our discussions with Carmarthenshire are continuing. There is some discussion as to whether the whole of the Gwendraeth valley should be included within the western Valleys area or whether some of its regeneration needs might best be served by being linked more closely to work that is going on in Llanelli. Those discussions continue.

Leighton Andrews: Ers cyfarfod â chi a Nia Griffith AS yng nghwm Gwendraeth rai wythnosau’n ôl, credaf ein bod wedi cael cyfarfod cyntaf y bwrdd adfywio ar gyfer yr ardal honno, ac mae ein trafodaethau gyda sir Gaerfyrddin yn parhau. Mae yna rywfaint o drafodaeth ynghylch a ddylid cynnwys cwm Gwendraeth i gyd yn ardal Cymoedd y gorllewin, ynteu a fyddai’n well creu cysylltiad agosach â’r gwaith sy’n mynd ymlaen yn Llanelli er mwyn diwallu rhai o’i anghenion adfywio. Mae’r trafodaethau hyn yn mynd ymlaen.

Alun Cairns: I have raised the issue about the western Valleys with you in the past and, as someone from the Swansea valley, I recognise the strong case for the five wards in the upper Swansea valley being represented as part of the western Valleys initiative. However, I repeat the point that I made before: we hear some Assembly Members calling for the area to be extended well into west Wales—the Gwendraeth valley and well beyond—but if funding is stretched as far as the Gwendraeth valley and elsewhere, is there a danger that it will not be focused and that those five wards in the upper Swansea valley and areas right across to Maesteg will not get the funding that they deserve to regenerate those communities?

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf wedi codi’r mater ynglŷn â Chymoedd y gorllewin gyda chi yn y gorffennol, ac fel rhywun o gwm Tawe cydnabyddaf yr achos cryf dros gael y pum ward yn rhan uchaf cwm Tawe wedi’u cynrychioli fel rhan o fenter Cymoedd y gorllewin. Fodd bynnag, ategaf y pwynt a wneuthum o’r blaen: clywn rai Aelodau Cynulliad yn galw am ymestyn y cynllun ymhell i’r gorllewin—cwm Gwendraeth ac ymhell y tu hwnt—ond os caiff cyllid ei ymestyn cyn belled â chwm Gwendraeth ac i fannau eraill, a oes perygl na fydd hwn wedi’i ganolbwyntio ac na fydd y pum ward hynny yn rhan uchaf cwm Tawe a’r ardaloedd yr holl ffordd draw i Faesteg yn cael y cyllid y maent yn ei haeddu i adfywio’r cymunedau hynny?

Leighton Andrews: The whole reason for having strategic regeneration areas is to ensure that we are able to focus funding and to ensure that funding is being spent in the areas that need it most. When you announce a new strategic regeneration area, there are always going to be legitimate debates about

Leighton Andrews: Y prif reswm dros gael ardaloedd adfywio strategol yw sicrhau ein bod yn gallu canolbwyntio cyllid a sicrhau bod y cyllid yn cael ei wario yn yr ardaloedd lle mae ei angen fwyaf. Pan fyddwch yn cyhoeddi ardal adfywio strategol newydd, bydd dadleuon dilys bob amser am ffiniau’r

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the extent of that area. That happened with the Heads of the Valleys strategic regeneration area, for example. Therefore, I do not find it particularly surprising that people have different views about this. Clearly, we want to concentrate resources, get the boundaries right, and ensure that the area involves the communities that should be covered.

ardal honno. Digwyddodd hynny gydag ardal adfywio strategol Blaenau’r Cymoedd, er enghraifft. Felly, nid yw’n syndod yn y byd imi glywed bod gan bobl safbwyntiau gwahanol am hyn. Yn amlwg, yr ydym am ganolbwyntio adnoddau, pennu’r ffiniau cywir, a sicrhau bod yr ardal yn cynnwys y cymunedau y dylid eu cynnwys.

Holyhead to Cardiff Train Service Gwasanaeth Trên Rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd

Q3 Mark Isherwood: Will the Minister make a statement on the Holyhead to Cardiff train service? OAQ(3)0998(ECT)

C3 Mark Isherwood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y gwasanaeth trên rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd? OAQ(3)0998(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: The limited-stop express service, Y Gerallt Gymro, between Holyhead and Cardiff was successfully launched in December 2008. That is in addition to the two-hourly train service between Holyhead and Cardiff, which operates from Monday to Saturday.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Cafodd y gwasanaeth cyflym gydag arosfannau cyfyngedig, Y Gerallt Gymro, rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd ei lansio’n llwyddiannus ym mis Rhagfyr 2008. Mae’r gwasanaeth hwnnw yn ychwanegol at y gwasanaeth sy’n rhedeg bob dwy awr rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd, sy’n rhedeg o ddydd Llun i ddydd Sadwrn.

Mark Isherwood: As you know, the Welsh Government is currently paying a subsidy for the train, which is estimated at £7,600 a day. There is growing concern about the lateness of the service, its frequent failings and its low-loading of first-class passengers. On 16 April, the 16.17 return service to Holyhead was cancelled due to train faults. It limped into Newport an hour late and was then cancelled. It was also cancelled on two consecutive days in March, and the train failed on 21 April between Crewe and Shrewsbury, because of brake problems, on the way to Cardiff. What discussions are you holding to address concerns and to clarify the numbers of passengers being carried on this train? Rail staff have advised that the majority of passengers are using this as a semi-fast service to Crewe from north Wales and as a service to Abergavenny from Cardiff rather than as service between Holyhead and our capital city?

Mark Isherwood: Fel y gwyddoch, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn rhoi cymhorthdal ar gyfer y trên, a amcangyfrifir yn £7,600 y dydd. Mae pryder cynyddol fod y gwasanaeth yn hwyr, ei fod yn methu’n aml ac mai nifer bach o sedddau dosbarth cyntaf sydd arno. Ar 16 Ebrill canslwyd y gwasanaeth 16.17 yn ôl i Gaergybi oherwydd nam ar y trên. Herciodd i mewn i Gasnewydd awr yn hwyr ac yna cafodd ei ganslo. Cafodd ei ganslo hefyd ar ddau ddiwrnod yn olynol ym mis Mawrth, a methodd y trên â chyrraedd pen ei daith yng Nghaerdydd oherwydd problemau gyda’r brêc rhwng Crewe ac Amwythig. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych yn eu cael i roi sylw i bryderon ac i egluro nifer y teithwyr sy’n cael eu cludo ar y trên hwn? Mae staff y rheilffordd wedi dweud bod y rhan fwyaf o deithwyr yn defnyddio hwn fel gwasanaeth lled gyflym i Crewe o ogledd Cymru ac fel gwasanaeth i’r Fenni o Gaerdydd, yn hytrach na gwasanaeth rhwng Caergybi a’n prifddinas?

The Deputy First Minister: I am a bit surprised that you have concentrated on those infrequent occasions when there have been

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn synnu braidd eich bod wedi canolbwyntio ar yr adegau anaml hynny pan gafwyd problemau

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problems with the train, because my understanding is that, since the launch of the service, there have been 188 scheduled trips, of which there have been problems with seven. Therefore, it is a very small number. Six of those cases were in relation to rolling-stock issues, and one was in relation to Network Rail infrastructure issues. Since the launch of the service, 32,000 passengers have been carried, which is a good loading. Arriva Trains has assured me that it is actively seeking to resolve the issues with regard to the occasions when there have been problems, and we want to ensure that even that limited number of problems will be resolved satisfactorily so that we can improve the service. It is encouraging that the passenger responses to the service since its introduction have been, by and large, very favourable.

gyda’r trên, oherwydd fel y deallaf, ers lansio’r gwasanaeth cafwyd 188 taith ar y gwasanaeth rheolaidd a chafwyd problemau gyda saith ohonynt. Felly, nifer bach iawn yw hynny. Yr oedd chwech o’r achosion hynny’n gysylltiedig â materion yn ymwneud â’r cerbydau, ac yr oedd un yn ymwneud â materion seilwaith Network Rail. Ers i’r lansio’r gwasanaeth mae 32,000 o deithwyr wedi eu cludo, sy’n llwyth da. Mae Trenau Arriva wedi fy sicrhau eu bod wrthi’n frwd yn ceisio datrys y problemau’n ymwneud â’r adegau pan fu problemau, ac yr ydym am sicrhau bod hyd yn oed y nifer bach hwnnw o broblemau’n cael eu datrys yn foddhaol fel y gallwn wella’r gwasanaeth. Mae’n galondid clywed bod ymateb teithwyr i’r gwasanaeth ers ei gyflwyno, ar y cyfan, wedi bod yn ffafriol iawn.

Chris Franks: How confident are you that the money spent on rail services is an efficient use of money at a time when we face dreadful cuts from London? Would you support increasing the frequency of the north-south service, perhaps by looking at introducing an express service in addition to the existing Holyhead to Cardiff train? That is, an express service with limited stops, which, according to transportation experts, would cut the journey time by 45 minutes. Further, will you make representations to Network Rail regarding carrying out signal improvements along south Wales lines?

Chris Franks: Pa mor hyderus ydych chi fod yr arian a werir ar wasanaethau rheilffyrdd yn ffprdd effeithiol o ddefnyddio arian ar adeg pan ydym yn wynebu toriadau echrydus o Lundain? A fyddech yn cefnogi cynyddu amlder y gwasanaeth rhwng y gogledd a’r de, efallai drwy edrych ar gyflwyno gwasanaeth trên cyflym yn ogystal â’r trên presennol rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd? Hynny yw, gwasanaeth trên cyflym gydag arosfannau cyfyngedig a fyddai, yn ôl arbenigwyr trafnidiaeth, yn byrhau’r daith o 45 munud. At hynny, a wnewch chi gyflwyno sylwadau i Network Rail ynghylch gwneud gwelliannau ar signalau ar hyd rheilffyrdd y de?

The Deputy First Minister: Clearly, the budget is challenging, but the Government’s intention is to maintain front-line services, including rail services. It is also the case that we are always looking for ways to enhance services. We have introduced the new, express Gerallt Gymro service between Holyhead and Cardiff, and that has been generally well received. In due course, we will see whether we can enhance that service, but you cannot really improve the timings until significant improvements in infrastructure have been made. I have announced that, under the strategic capital investment framework procedure, a substantial sum of money has been made available to improve the infrastructure between Chester and Wrexham. Once that

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yn amlwg, mae’r gyllideb yn heriol, ond bwriad y Llywodraeth yw cynnal gwasanaethau rheng-flaen, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd. Hefyd, mae’n wir ein bod bob amser yn chwilio am ffyrdd i wella gwasanaethau. Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r gwasanaeth trên cyflym, y Gerallt Gymro, rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd, ac mae hwnnw wedi cael croeso cynnes ar y cyfan. Maes o law byddwn yn edrych i weld a allwn wella’r gwasanaeth hwnnw, ond ni allwch wella’r amseroedd nes bydd gwelliannau sylweddol wedi eu gwneud i’r seilwaith. Yr wyf wedi cyhoeddi, dan drefn y fframwaith buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, fod swm sylweddol ar gael i wella’r seilwaith rhwng Caer a Wrecsam. Ar ôl gorffen y gwaith hwnnw, gallwn wneud

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work has been completed, we can achieve significant savings and improved frequency.

arbedion sylweddol a chynyddu amlder.

I can also tell you that the Government is making a contribution to the resignalling work. We are providing over £7 million towards Network Rail’s £30 million in enhancements to improve capacity on Valleys lines. We are also in discussion with Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales about the programming of individual schemes. We all understand the importance of doing that work to increase service efficiency and frequency.

Gallaf hefyd ddweud wrthych fod y Llywodraeth yn cyfrannu at y gwaith o osod signalau newydd. Yr ydym yn darparu dros £7 miliwn at werth £30 miliwn o welliannau gan Network Rail i wella’r capasiti ar reilffyrdd y Cymoedd. Yr ydym hefyd yn trafod gyda Network Rail a Threnau Arriva Cymru ynghylch creu rhaglen ar gyfer cynlluniau unigol. Yr ydym i gyd yn deall mor bwysig yw gwneud y gwaith hwnnw er mwyn gwella amlder ac effeithlonrwydd y gwasanaeth.

Eleanor Burnham: I do not doubt your sincerity, and I commend you for trying your best. However, I worry about ATW’s attitude. If you were to consider best practice, you need only look at the operator of the Wrexham to Marylebone service: it has a much better attitude, a can-do mentality, and it runs a brilliant service. Why on earth can you not persuade ATW to emulate it?

Eleanor Burnham: Nid wyf yn amau eich didwylledd, ac yr wyf yn eich canmol am wneud eich gorau glas. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn poeni am agwedd Trenau Arriva Cymru. Petaech yn ystyried arfer gorau, nid oes angen ichi edrych ddim pellach na gweithredwr y gwasanaeth rhwng Wrecsam a Marylebone: mae ganddo agwedd lawer gwell, meddylfryd o fynd amdani, ac mae’n rhedeg gwasanaeth gwych. Pam yn y byd na allwch berswadio Trenau Arriva Cymru i’w efelychu?

The Deputy First Minister: On my journeys with Arriva Trains Wales, I have always found the staff to have excellent customer relations. The service is very good. We have tried to ensure that the quality of the service improves as well, which is why we have introduced the locomotive-hauled service between Holyhead and Cardiff, which improves the quality of the ride, and there has been an improvement in the quality of the service and the refreshments available to passengers. The standard of service from Arriva Trains Wales has improved substantially.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ar fy nheithiau gyda Threnau Arriva Cymru, o’m profiad i mae gan y staff berthynas ardderchog â chwsmeriaid. Mae’r gwasanaeth yn dda iawn. Yr ydym wedi ceisio sicrhau bod safon y gwasanaeth yn gwella hefyd, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r gwasanaeth sy’n cael ei yrru gan locomotif rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd. Mae’n gwneud y daith yn fwy llyfn, a chafwyd gwelliant yn safon y gwasanaeth a’r lluniaeth sydd ar gael i deithwyr. Mae safon y gwasanaeth gan Drenau Arriva Cymru wedi gwella’n sylweddol.

Hinsawdd Economaidd Economic Climate

C4 Bethan Jenkins: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am yr hinsawdd economaidd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd? OAQ(3)1016(ECT)

Q4 Bethan Jenkins: Will the Minister make a statement on the current economic climate in Wales? OAQ(3)1016(ECT)

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’r economi’n wynebu nifer o heriau, ond yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y mesurau penodol ac ymarferol yr ydym wedi eu cyflwyno’n rhoi cymorth gwirioneddol i fusnesau sy’n paratoi

The Deputy First Minister: The economy faces a number of challenges, but I am confident that the targeted and practical measures we have introduced will provide tangible help to firms preparing for the

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ar gyfer gwelliant yn yr economi. upturn.

Bethan Jenkins: Fe’ch llongyfarchaf am eich gwaith yn delio â’r argyfwng economaidd presennol. Mae’n siŵr eich bod yn cytuno bod Llywodraeth Prydain wedi colli cyfle yn ei chyllideb i adlewyrchu’r gwaith sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru.

Bethan Jenkins: I congratulate you on your work in dealing with the current economic crisis. I am sure you agree that the British Government has missed an opportunity in its budget to copy the work being done in Wales.

Er hynny, canolbwyntiaf ar hawliau’r undebau llafur i brotestio yn ystod y dirwasgiad hwn. Yn Abertawe heddiw, cafodd Rob Williams, cydlynydd undeb llafur, ei ddiarddel o’i waith. A yw’n bryd, felly, inni newid y cyfreithiau Thatcheraidd ynghylch gallu pobl i brotestio? Bydd pobl yn ysu i gael llais yn ystod y dirwasgiad presennol ac yn ysu am yr hawl i brotestio yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn, gyda mwy o bobl yn colli’u gwaith a chyda thelerau gwaith llawer o’r bobl sy’n cadw’u swyddi yn newid.

However, I will concentrate on the right of trade unions to protest during this recession. In Swansea today, Rob Williams, a trade union convenor, was dismissed. Is it time, therefore, for us to change the Thatcherite laws on the right to protest? People will be very keen to have a voice during this recession and will want to be able to protest during this difficult time, with more people losing their jobs and more people who remain in work seeing their working conditions change.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn gwybod am yr achos penodol hwnnw, Bethan. Nid yw cyfraith cyflogaeth wedi’i ddatganoli hyd yn hyn i’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, fel pwynt cyffredinol, byddwn yn pryderu’n fawr pe bai rhywun yn cael ei ddiswyddo am ei fod yn perthyn i undeb neu am brotestio. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod modd anfon sylwadau at yr adran briodol yn San Steffan i sicrhau bod y pryderon yn cael eu mynegi.

The Deputy First Minister: I do not have any information about that specific case, Bethan. At present, employment law is not devolved to the Assembly. However, as a general point I would be very concerned if people were being sacked as a result of union membership or because they wished to protest. I am sure representations can be made to the relevant Westminster department to ensure that those concerns are expressed.

2.30 p.m.

David Melding: I think that you will agree with me that maintaining our small and medium-sized enterprise sector is important if we are to experience a robust recovery once the recession ends. In the economic summits, the question of business rates has come up frequently, and, in fairness, you have made some response to that. However, do you agree that the central weakness of your Government’s approach is that you are not prepared to have the ambition of the Scottish Government, for example, and use this mechanism as a fiscal way of increasing the amount of money available to the Welsh economy? This is a use of your levers that would be effective in getting to the coalface immediately. Why have you not gone a little further and spent around £50 million a year instead of the £20 million to £25 million to

David Melding: Credaf y byddwch yn cytuno â mi fod cynnal ein sector busnesau bach a chanolig yn bwysig os ydym i gael adferiad cadarn pan ddaw’r dirwasgiad i ben. Yn yr uwchgynadleddau economaidd, mae cwestiwn ardrethi busnes wedi’i godi droeon, ac i fod yn deg yr ydych wedi ymateb i hynny i ryw raddau. Serch hynny, a gytunwch mai gwendid canolog dull eich Llywodraeth yw nad ydych yn barod i arddel uchelgais Llywodraeth yr Alban, er enghraifft, a defnyddio’r mecanwaith hwn fel cyfrwng cyllidol i gynyddu’r arian sydd ar gael i economi Cymru? O ddefnyddio’ch trosolion fel hyn, gallech gyrraedd y talcen glo ar unwaith. Pam nad ydych wedi mynd ychydig ymhellach a gwario tua £50 miliwn y flwyddyn, yn hytrach na’r £20 neu’r £25 miliwn yr ydych wedi ymrwymo iddo?

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which you have committed?

The Deputy First Minister: I understand the point that you make, David, because it has also been made by the small business community. You also pointed out what they have been doing in Scotland. However, I have told you on a number of occasions—and I will repeat it again—that the resources of the Assembly Government have been mostly directed at maintaining our skill base. Devolved administrations throughout other parts of the United Kingdom are now looking to see what work they can do which is similar to us, such as the ProAct programme, putting more money into SkillBuild and maintaining apprenticeships. There have been a number of enhancements to the business rate scheme; we put £7 million in last year, which follows through to this year. We have also followed the UK Government’s lead in postponing part of the increase for this year for the next two years, and we have introduced the empty business rate relief scheme, which also applies throughout the UK. So, a lot of work has been done, but as with everything here, we keep further commitments under review.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Deallaf eich pwynt, David, oherwydd mae’r gymuned busnesau bach wedi’i wneud hefyd. Soniech hefyd am yr hyn y maent wedi bod yn ei wneud yn yr Alban. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi dweud wrthych droeon—ac fe’i dywedaf eto—fod adnoddau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi’u cyfeirio’n bennaf at gynnal ein sylfaen sgiliau. Mae gweinyddiaethau datganoledig holl rannau eraill y Deyrnas Unedig yn edrych yn awr i weld pa waith y gallant hwythau ei wneud sy’n debyg i’r hyn yr ydym ni’n ei wneud, megis y rhaglen ProAct, rhoi mwy o arian i Adeiladu Sgiliau a chynnal prentisiaethau. Mae nifer o welliannau wedi’u gwneud yn y cynllun ardrethi busnes; rhoesom £7 miliwn ato y llynedd, ac mae hynny’n parhau eleni. Yr ydym hefyd wedi dilyn arweiniad Llywodraeth y DU drwy ohirio rhan o’r cynnydd eleni am y ddwy flynedd nesaf, ac yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi busnes ar gyfer eiddo gwag, sydd hefyd yn berthnasol ledled y DU. Felly, mae llawer o waith wedi’i wneud, ond fel gyda phopeth arall yma, byddwn yn cadw golwg ar ymrwymiadau pellach.

David Melding: Minister, the SME sector is probably the sector that we can influence most, given that our powers over economic development are considerable, but the wider macro economic policies that you have are limited. If we are to see a robust recovery from this recession and a more resilient Welsh economy in the future, we will want to see a much larger and more productive SME sector. One of the major dangers, even when the economy starts to grow again, is that banks will not be able to lend very much for growth because they still have not grasped the fact that their assets are worth much less in the marketplace than they were two or three years ago. Unless we provide an alternative credit line, we will see a loss of potential in the next two or three years. I would like to see Finance Wales step in much more robustly to meet this market failure whenever it occurs. Do you have any plans to expand the role of Finance Wales so that it can fill this crucial gap?

David Melding: Weinidog, y sector BBaCh, mae’n debyg, yw’r sector y gallwn ddylanwadu mwyaf arno, o gofio bod gennym bwerau sylweddol dros ddatblygu economaidd, ond mae’r polisïau economaidd macro ehangach sydd gennych yn gyfyngedig. Os ydym i weld adferiad cadarn o’r dirwasgiad hwn ac economi wytnach yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, byddwn am weld sector BBaCh sy’n fwy o lawer ac sy’n fwy cynhyrchiol. Un o’r peryglon mawr, hyd yn oed pan fydd yr economi’n dechrau tyfu eto, yw na fydd y banciau’n gallu rhoi benthyg llawer iawn ar gyfer twf am nad ydynt wedi deall y ffaith eto fod eu hasedau’n werth llai o lawer yn y farchnad nag oeddent ddwy neu dair blynedd yn ôl. Oni ddarparwn linell gredyd arall, byddwn yn gweld colli potensial yn y ddwy neu dair blynedd nesaf. Hoffwn weld Cyllid Cymru’n camu i’r bwlch yn fwy cadarn o lawer i wneud iawn am y methiant hwn yn y farchnad pryd bynnag y bydd yn digwydd. A oes gennych unrhyw gynlluniau i ehangu rôl Cyllid Cymru fel y gall lenwi’r bwlch hollbwysig hwn?

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The Deputy First Minister: We were pleased to announce last Friday that Finance Wales will have access to £150 million more over the next five years, which substantially increases Finance Wales’s ability to intervene in the marketplace. It will also enable it to leverage much more support from the banking sector, because it is not simply about going to Finance Wales for the whole of the loan facility—it is about doing it in partnerships with the high street banks. Under these circumstances, it is important not to let the high street banks off the hook either. That is why, in the next few weeks, I, together with the banks in Wales, will publish a guide to accessing bank finance, aimed primarily at making sure that small and medium-sized enterprises have more access to bank facilities.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr oeddem yn falch cyhoeddi ddydd Gwener diwethaf y bydd £150 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gael i Gyllid Cymru dros y pum mlynedd nesaf, sy’n cynyddu gallu Cyllid Cymru’n sylweddol i ymyrryd yn y farchnad. Bydd yn ei alluogi hefyd i sbarduno mwy o gefnogaeth o lawer gan y sector bancio, oherwydd nid mater syml o fynd at Gyllid Cymru i gael y benthyciad i gyd yw hi—mae angen gwneud hynny ar y cyd â banciau’r stryd fawr. Dan yr amgylchiadau hyn, mae’n bwysig peidio â gollwng banciau’r stryd fawr oddi ar y bachyn ychwaith. Dyma pam, yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf, y byddaf fi, gyda’r banciau yng Nghymru, yn cyhoeddi arweiniad ar gyfer gallu cael cyllid gan y banciau, a hwnnw’n anelu’n bennaf at sicrhau bod cyfleusterau’r banciau ar gael yn haws i fusnesau bach a chanolig.

Irene James: Minister, do you agree that in these uncertain times, we cannot afford to close down the economy and let the recession do its worst, like some have urged? Neither can we afford to cut ourselves off from the rest of the UK, leaving ourselves exposed like many small countries, such as Iceland, whose financial model some people in the Chamber was eulogising only a few months ago.

Irene James: Weinidog, a gytunwch na allwn fforddio cau’r economi, yn yr oes ansicr hon, a gadael i’r dirwasgiad wneud ei waethaf, fel y mae rhai wedi annog? Ni allwn ychwaith fforddio ein hynysu’n hunain oddi wrth weddill y DU, a’n gadael ein hunain yn agored, fel y mae llawer o wledydd bychain, fel Gwlad yr Iâ, er enghraifft, gwlad yr oedd rhai pobl yn Siambr hon yn canmol ei model ariannol gwta fisoedd yn ôl.

The Deputy First Minister: It is important for us to look at best practice wherever that applies. I found it interesting that the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform is looking to Wales for the lead on the work that we are doing with the banks; it has asked us for information about what we are doing. It is also interesting that the UK Government wants to replicate the work that we are doing with the ProAct scheme, which is very good. It means that Wales is leading the way on the response to the recession. It is also interesting, that Wales is seen to be leading the way, not only in England, but also in Scotland and Northern Ireland, particularly in the way that we are protecting our skills base. I am sure that Irene would like to congratulate Wales for leading the way.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’n bwysig inni edrych ar arfer gorau lle bynnag y bydd hynny. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol gweld bod yr Adran Busnes, Menter a Diwygio Rheoleiddio yn troi at Gymru am arweiniad yn y gwaith yr ydym yn ei wneud gyda’r banciau; mae wedi gofyn inni am wybodaeth am yr hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud. Mae’n ddiddorol hefyd fod Llywodraeth y DU am efelychu’r gwaith yr ydym yn ei wneud gyda’r cynllun ProAct, sy’n beth da iawn. Mae’n golygu bod Cymru ar flaen y gad o ran ymateb i’r dirwasgiad. Mae’n ddiddorol bod Cymru’n cael ei gweld yn arwain y ffordd, nid dim ond yn Lloegr, ond yn yr Alban ac yng Ngogledd Iwerddon hefyd, yn enwedig yn y ffordd yr ydym yn gwarchod ein sylfaen sgiliau. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Irene yn dymuno llongyfarch Cymru am arwain y ffordd.

Peter Black: Deputy First Minister, you will Peter Black: Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, yn y

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be aware that, in the current recession, it is important that we invest in skills and education so that people are able to take up opportunities as and when they arise. Despite the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government has put nearly £9 million extra into further education, there are still issues with regard to further education colleges in my region, where three of the four still face substantial deficits and the possibility of redundancies and cuts in courses. Will you therefore talk to ministerial colleagues about those particular colleges to see whether further money is available to try to avoid the decimation of some courses that will impact upon the Government’s skills agenda?

dirwasgiad presennol gwyddoch ei bod yn bwysig inni fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau ac mewn addysg er mwyn i bobl fanteisio ar gyfleoedd wrth iddynt godi. Er bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi rhoi bron £9 miliwn yn ychwanegol i addysg bellach, mae gan golegau addysg bellach fy rhanbarth i broblemau o hyd. Mae tri o’r pedwar yn dal i wynebu diffygion ariannol sylweddol a phosibilrwydd diswyddo a thocio cyrsiau. A wnewch felly siarad â’ch cyd-Weinidogion ynglŷn â’r colegau penodol hynny i weld a oes rhagor o arian ar gael, er mwyn ceisio osgoi darnio rhai cyrsiau a gaiff effaith ar agenda sgiliau’r Llywodraeth?

The Deputy First Minister: The fact that we were able to announce another £8.9 million at the last economic summit shows that the Government is committed to supporting the role of further education colleges, tertiary colleges and sixth forms. We understand how important that is, but, in addition to that money, we are making announcements about assistance for jobseekers who are seeking skills. We have also substantially invested in developing our SkillBuild programme, and more money has been made available to Careers Wales. When you look at the whole requirement for skills in Wales, you will see that this Government is not found wanting.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’r ffaith ein bod wedi llwyddo i gyhoeddi £8.9 miliwn arall yn yr uwchgynhadledd economaidd ddiwethaf yn dangos bod y Llywodraeth yn benderfynol o gefnogi rôl colegau addysg bellach, colegau trydyddol a’r chweched dosbarth. Yr ydym yn deall mor bwysig yw hynny, ond yn ogystal â’r arian hwnnw yr ydym yn cyhoeddi cymorth i bobl sy’n chwilio am swyddi ac sydd am gael sgiliau. Yr ydym hefyd wedi buddsoddi’n sylweddol i ddatblygu ein rhaglen Adeiladu Sgiliau, ac y mae rhagor o arian wedi’i ddarparu ar gyfer Gyrfa Cymru. Pan edrychwch ar y gofyniad cyflawn ar gyfer sgiliau yng Nghymru, gwelwch nad yw’r Llywodraeth hon yn brin.

‘The Car in British Society’ ‘The Car in British Society’

Q5 William Graham: What assessment has the Minister made of the RAC report, ‘The Car in British Society’, which defines Wales as a car reliant nation? OAQ(3)1005(ECT)

C5 William Graham: Pa asesiad y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud o adroddiad yr RAC, ‘The Car in British Society’, sy’n diffinio Cymru fel cenedl sy’n ddibynnol ar y car? OAQ(3)1005(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: Reducing car dependency is a challenge that I addressed when the Wales transport strategy was launched. Further details of the practical measures that can be implemented will be contained in the national transport plan, which will be issued for consultation later this year.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae gwneud pobl yn llai dibynnol ar eu ceir yn her yr euthum i’r afael â hi pan lansiwyd strategaeth drafnidiaeth Cymru. Bydd rhagor o fanylion am y camau ymarferol y gellir eu rhoi ar waith yn y cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol, a gyhoeddir ar gyfer ymgynghori yn ddiweddarach eleni.

William Graham: I am most grateful for your answer, Minister. You will know that the report finds that living in a house with a car is the norm for 80 per cent of people in

William Graham: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iawn am eich ateb, Weinidog. Gwyddoch fod yr adroddiad yn dweud mai byw ar aelwyd sy’n berchen ar gar yw’r norm i 80 y cant o

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Wales, with the largest growth in ownership among lower-income families and older people. Despite that, around half of all drivers travel less than 5,000 miles a year, and the lead researcher commented that the research suggests that most people cannot envisage a future without their cars and that many would go to considerable lengths to continue to use them. You will also know that, in rural areas, it is an essential item for anyone living and working in the countryside. Anyone working to a timetable cannot afford delayed or missed trains and services that are downgraded at weekends, and in many rural areas, the only bus that is seen is that for the school run. I hope that you will factor into your discussions and consultation the need for the motorcar to be used and, hopefully, in the future, it will be more economic.

bobl Cymru, a bod y twf mwyaf o ran perchnogaeth ymhlith teuluoedd is eu hincwm a phobl hŷn. Er gwaethaf hynny, bydd oddeutu hanner yr holl yrwyr yn teithio llai na 5,000 o filltiroedd y flwyddyn, a dywedodd y prif ymchwilydd fod yr ymchwil yn awgrymu na all y rhan fwyaf o bobl ragweld dyfodol heb eu ceir, ac y byddai llawer yn mynd i drafferth fawr er mwyn parhau i’w defnyddio. Gwyddoch hefyd fod car yn hanfodol i bawb sy’n byw ac yn gweithio yng nghefn gwlad. Ni all neb sy’n gweithio yn ôl amserlen fforddio bod trenau’n hwyr, neu eu bod yn colli’r trên a bod gwasanaethau’n cael eu hisraddio dros y Sul, ac mewn llawer ardal wledig yr unig fws a welwch yw’r bws ysgol. Gobeithio, wrth ichi drafod ac ymgynghori, y cofiwch fod angen defnyddio’r car modur, ac yn y dyfodol gobeithio y bydd yn fwy economaidd.

The Deputy First Minister: We must remember that we have committed to reducing carbon-equivalent emissions from transport, and car usage needs to be reduced in order for us to meet that target. I understand the points that you made about rural Wales and low-income families. I also understand the point that you made about the fact that many drivers drive few miles per year—5,000 miles, as you said. Nevertheless, I feel that there is a great deal more that we can do to persuade people to leave their cars at home, and that is precisely why we have made the announcement that Cardiff will be the first sustainable travel town in Wales, which means looking at practical ways to make public transport more affordable and more accessible. If we can show that that development in Cardiff works and if we can persuade people to leave their cars at home more, we can roll that out throughout the rest of Wales.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Rhaid inni gofio ein bod wedi ymrwymo i leihau allyriadau gan drafnidiaeth sy’n cyfateb-i-garbon, a bod angen defnyddio llai ar geir er mwyn inni gyrraedd y nod hwnnw. Deallaf eich pwyntiau am y Gymru wledig a theuluoedd ar incwm isel. Deallaf eich pwynt hefyd am y ffaith mai ychydig filltiroedd bob blwyddyn y bydd nifer o yrwyr yn eu gyrru - 5,000 o filltiroedd, meddech. Serch hynny, teimlaf fod llawer mwy y gallwn ei wneud i gymell pobl i adael eu ceir gartref, a dyna’n union pam yr ydym wedi cyhoeddi mai Caerdydd fydd y dref teithio cynaliadwy gyntaf yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n golygu ystyried ffyrdd ymarferol i sicrhau bod cludiant cyhoeddus yn fwy fforddiadwy ac yn fwy hwylus. Os gallwn ddangos bod y datblygiad hwnnw’n gweithio yng Nghaerdydd, ac os gallwn berswadio pobl i adael eu ceir gartref yn amlach, gallwn gyflwyno hynny yng ngweddill Cymru.

Leanne Wood: It is clear that, as a nation, we are far too reliant on the use of private cars. I was therefore encouraged to see the Welsh Government taking steps to try to address this by working with Cardiff council to implement the sustainable transport system to which you have just referred in our capital city. In order to persuade more people to get out of their cars, we need to make public transport more affordable, accessible and

Leanne Wood: Mae’n amlwg ein bod, fel cenedl, yn dibynnu gormod o lawer ar ddefnyddio ceir preifat. Fe’m calonogwyd felly o weld Llywodraeth Cymru yn cymryd camau i geisio mynd i’r afael â hyn drwy gydweithio â chyngor Caerdydd i roi’r system trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy yr ydych newydd gyfeirio ati ar waith yn ein prifddinas. Er mwyn perswadio mwy o bobl i adael eu ceir, mae angen inni sicrhau bod

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attractive, as it is in most other European countries. Is it the case that the sustainable transport initiative that will be rolled out in Cardiff will go some way towards achieving that? Can you tell us what else can be done to promote walking and cycling as alternatives to short car journeys?

cludiant cyhoeddus yn fwy fforddiadwy, yn fwy hwylus ac yn fwy deniadol, fel y mae yn y rhan fwyaf o wledydd eraill Ewrop. A yw’n wir y bydd y cynllun trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy a gyflwynir yng Nghaerdydd yn mynd rywfaint o’r ffordd at wireddu hynny? A allwch ddweud wrthym beth arall y gellir ei wneud i hybu cerdded a beicio yn lle siwrneiau byr yn y car?

2.40 p.m.

The Deputy First Minister: We have made a number of announcements on walking and cycling recently that will encourage more walking and cycling. Very often, it is the case of the priority afforded to the mode of transport. The difficulty is that, where there is a conflict on the road between car usage, buses, and walking and cycling, the car normally has the priority. We want to change that in urban areas so that we make it easier for people to walk and cycle and give buses priority over cars in highly congested areas. That is the sort of thing that we are doing. This calls not only for a change in behaviour, but for a change in the way that we invest in infrastructure. We are committed to doing that through the sustainable towns initiative.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydym wedi gwneud nifer o gyhoeddiadau’n ddiweddar ynglŷn â cherdded a beicio a fydd yn annog mwy o gerdded a beicio. Yn aml iawn, mater yw hi o faint o flaenoriaeth a roddir i’r modd o deithio. Yr anhawster yw, os oes gwrthdaro ar y ffordd rhwng defnyddio ceir, bysiau, a cherdded a beicio, y car fel rheol sy’n cael y flaenoriaeth. Yr ydym am newid hynny mewn ardaloedd trefol i’w gwneud yn haws i bobl gerdded a beicio ac er mwyn rhoi blaenoriaeth i fysiau dros geir mewn ardaloedd lle mae’r traffig yn drwm. Dyna’r math o beth yr ydym yn ei wneud. Mae hyn yn gofyn nid yn unig am newid ymddygiad, ond am newid hefyd yn y ffordd yr ydym yn buddsoddi mewn seilwaith. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i wneud hynny drwy’r fenter trefi cynaliadwy.

Kirsty Williams: Deputy First Minister, given your commitment to promote public transport in Wales, can you give us an understanding of why you have, to date, been unable to publish the local transport services grant, which maintains bus services across vulnerable routes across the whole of Wales? I understand that this submission has been on your desk for several weeks. Local authorities are desperately awaiting that announcement; services are in danger of being cut without that announcement. Will you confirm that you have that submission on your desk and say when you will get around to publishing those figures so that local authorities know what services they can and cannot provide?

Kirsty Williams: Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, o gofio’ch ymrwymiad i hybu cludiant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, a allwch esbonio wrthym pam nad ydych, hyd yn hyn, wedi gallu cyhoeddi’r grant gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth lleol, sy’n cynnal gwasanaethau bysiau ar lwybrau nad ydynt yn talu’n dda ledled Cymru? Deallaf fod y cyflwyniad hwn ar eich desg ers wythnosau. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn disgwyl yn eiddgar am y cyhoeddiad hwnnw; mae perygl i wasanaethau gael eu cwtogi heb y cyhoeddiad hwnnw. A wnewch chi gadarnhau bod y cyflwyniad hwnnw ar eich desg a dweud pryd y llwyddwch i gyhoeddi’r ffigurau hynny er mwyn i awdurdodau lleol wybod pa wasanaethau y gallant ac na allant eu darparu?

The Deputy First Minister: The submission has been approved and will now be published.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae’r cyflwyniad wedi’i gymeradwyo bellach ac fe’i cyhoeddir yn awr.

Employment Cyflogaeth

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Q6 Brynle Williams: Will the Minister outline the Welsh Assembly Government’s plans for increasing employment in north Wales? OAQ(3)1025(ECT)

C6 Brynle Williams: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu cynlluniau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer cynyddu cyflogaeth yn y gogledd? OAQ(3)1025(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: We are providing a range of support measures to ensure that businesses in Wales have the opportunity to compete and grow. These include the new £150 million JEREMIE fund, which will support the expansion of more than 800 businesses and create up to 15,000 jobs across Wales.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn darparu amrywiaeth o fesurau cymorth i sicrhau bod busnesau yng Nghymru’n cael y cyfle i gystadlu a thyfu. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys cronfa newydd JEREMIE, sy’n werth £150 miliwn ac a fydd yn cefnogi ehangu dros 800 o fusnesau gan greu hyd at 15,000 o swyddi ledled Cymru.

Brynle Williams: Thank you for that answer. North Wales, as you are well aware, has been devastated by the hundreds of job losses over the past six to eight months from major employers, including Eaton Electrical, BOCM PAULS and now, regrettably, Air Products. Now, when the production part of the economy needs the support of the Government more than ever, there is concern that businesses in north Wales are not getting the attention they need. Are you prepared to say how many businesses in north Wales have agreed to make deferred payments to the Treasury and how many businesses in north Wales have benefited from the ProAct scheme?

Brynle Williams: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw. Mae’r gogledd, fel y gwyddoch yn dda, wedi cael ergyd ofnadwy yn sgil colli cannoedd o swyddi dros y chwech i wyth mis diwethaf gan gyflogwyr mawr, gan gynnwys Eaton Electrical, BOCM PAULS ac yn awr, yn anffodus, Air Products. Yn awr, ag mae angen cymorth y Llywodraeth ar elfen gynhyrchu’r economiyn fwy nag erioed, mae pobl yn poeni nad yw busnesau yn y gogledd yn cael y sylw y mae ei angen arnynt. A ydych yn barod i ddweud faint o fusnesau yn y gogledd sydd wedi cytuno i ohirio’u taliadau i’r Trysorlys, a faint o fusnesau yn y gogledd sydd wedi elwa o’r cynllun ProAct?

The Deputy First Minister: I cannot provide the information today on the number of businesses that have benefited from the ProAct scheme, broken down geographically, although I know that 32 ProAct applications have been approved. I will write to you with the details about north Wales. However, I can tell you that I am spending a great deal of time talking to a number of businesses throughout Wales. I have, for example, met with the management of Indesit in Bodelwyddan and the local authority to discuss that matter. You have written to me about BOCM PAULS in Denbigh. I have now agreed to meet the company, and we are trying to set a date for that next week. With regard to Air Products, which you also mentioned, there will be a meeting between my department, the company and the county borough council on 1 May. Therefore, Brynle, I can tell you that we are actively engaged on these issues and that we will do everything we can to protect businesses.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ni allaf roi’r wybodaeth ichi heddiw am nifer y busnesau sydd wedi elwa o’r cynllun ProAct, fesul rhanbarth, er y gwn fod 32 o geisiadau ProAct wedi’u cymeradwyo. Ysgrifennaf atoch gyda’r manylion am y gogledd. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud wrthych fy mod yn treulio llawer iawn o amser yn siarad â nifer o fusnesau ledled Cymru. Er enghraifft, yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â rheolwyr Indesit ym Modelwyddan ac â’r awdurdod lleol i drafod y mater hwnnw. Yr ydych wedi ysgrifennu ataf ynglŷn â BOCM PAULS yn Ninbych. Yr wyf yn awr wedi cytuno i gyfarfod â’r cwmni, ac yr ydym yn ceisio pennu dyddiad ar gyfer hynny yr wythnos nesaf. O ran Air Products, a grybwyllwyd gennych hefyd, bydd cyfarfod rhwng fy adran, y cwmni a’r cyngor bwrdeistref sirol ar 1 Mai. Felly, Brynle, gallaf ddweud wrthych fod y materion hyn yn cael sylw gennym ac y gwnawn bopeth a allwn i warchod busnesau. Os gallwn eu cynorthwyo drwy ProAct, os

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Where we can assist through ProAct, where there is short-time working, or ReAct, where people have, unfortunately, been made unemployed, we will do so.

yw oriau gweithwyr wedi’u tocio, neu drwy ReAct, os yw pobl, yn anffodus, wedi colli eu gwaith, byddwn yn gwneud hynny.

Gareth Jones: Fel yr ydych wedi dweud, yr wyf finnau, fel chithau, wedi mynychu cyfarfodydd gyda chynghorwyr ac uwch swyddogion yn ddiweddar i geisio diogelu cyflogaeth ar safle Indesit ym Modelwyddan, sy’n cyflogi llawer o bob o etholaeth Aberconwy. A wnewch chi gadarnhau y bydd pob adnodd posibl gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gael i reolwyr a gweithwyr ar y safle ac y bydd pob ymdrech bosibl yn cael ei gwneud gan y cwmni i ymgysylltu â thrafod gyda’r gweithlu, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r ddau awdurdod lleol? A wnewch chi hefyd gadarnhau y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cydweithio mor agos â phosibl â’r ddau awdurdod lleol, sydd erbyn hyn wedi ymrwymo i warchod y safle fel safle cyflogaeth allweddol ar gyfer ardal gogledd Cymru, ac i weithio mewn partneriaeth i asesu effaith y dirwasgiad ac, ar y cyd, i gynllunio tuag at sefydlogrwydd economaidd i’r ddwy sir?

Gareth Jones: As you have just said, I have attended meetings with councillors and senior officials recently in an effort to safeguard employment at the Indesit site in Bodelwyddan, which employs many people from the Aberconwy constituency. Will you confirm that every possible Welsh Assembly Government resource will be made available to managers and workers at the site, and that every effort will be made by the company to engage and hold discussions with the workforce, the Assembly Government and the two local authorities concerned? Will you also confirm that the Welsh Assembly Government will work as closely as possible with the two local authorities, that are now committed to safeguarding the site as a key employment area in north Wales and to working in partnership to assess the impact of the recession and to plan jointly for the economic stability of both counties?

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yn gyntaf, hoffwn longyfarch y ddau gyngor am ddod at ei gilydd i weithio mor agos. Yr oedd yn beth da cael cyfarfod gyda’r ddau gyngor a’u swyddogion yn ddiweddar i drafod problemau Indesit. Cyfarfûm â rheolwr y cwmni hefyd. Yr wyf yn cadw’n agos iawn at y datblygiadau hynny. Byddaf yn parhau i gadw golwg ar y sefyllfa, a byddaf hefyd yn sicrhau bod y berthynas sydd bellach wedi’i sefydlu yn gweithio’n effeithiol. Lle gall partneriaeth felly ddod at ei gilydd, mae’n siŵr gennyf y gallwn wneud llawer. Nid yw pethau’n argoeli’n obeithiol o ran swyddi, ond gallwn sicrhau defnydd allweddol o’r safle ar gyfer buddsoddi i’r dyfodol.

The Deputy First Minister: Firstly, I congratulate the two authorities on coming together to collaborate so closely. It was good to have a meeting with the two councils and their officials recently to discuss the problems at Indesit. I also met the manager of the company. I am keeping a close eye on those developments. I shall continue to monitor the situation, and I shall also ensure that the relationship which has now been established continues to work effectively. Where such a partnership can come together, I am sure we can achieve great things. Things do not augur well in relation to jobs, but we can ensure the key use of the site ready for future investment.

Local Speed Limits Cyfyngiadau Cyflymder Lleol

Q7 Sandy Mewies: What progress has been made on new guidance for the setting of local speed limits in Wales? OAQ(3)1024(ECT)

C7 Sandy Mewies: Pa gynnydd a wnaed yng nghyswllt yr arweiniad newydd ar osod cyfyngiadau cyflymder lleol yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1024(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: We received over 100 responses from local authorities, the police, town and community councils,

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Mae awdurdodau lleol, yr heddlu, cynghorau tref a chymuned, Aelodau’r Cynulliad a

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Assembly Members and local councillors, as well as other individuals and organisations. These have been analysed and I will be considering the findings shortly.

chynghorwyr lleol, ynghyd ag unigolion a sefydliadau eraill, wedi anfon dros 100 o ymatebion atom. Mae’r rhain wedi cael eu dadansoddi, a byddaf yn ystyried y darganfyddiadau’n fuan.

Sandy Mewies: I am sure that you will be aware that many communities, particularly in my constituency of Delyn, are eagerly awaiting these guidelines as local people feel strongly that they know what speed limits are needed on local roads to make them safer for pedestrians and traffic. I have been raising this issue for several years now and there have been some delays. Can you assure me that there will be no further delays in issuing this guidance? The process has already taken a considerable amount of time, and the guidance is badly needed.

Sandy Mewies: Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol fod nifer o gymunedau, yn enwedig yn fy etholaeth i yn Nelyn, yn aros yn eiddgar am y canllawiau newydd hyn gan fod pobl leol yn teimlo’n gryf eu bod yn gwybod pa gyfyngiadau cyflymder y mae eu hangen ar ffyrdd lleol i’w gwneud yn fwy diogel i gerddwyr ac i draffig. Yr wyf wedi bod yn codi’r mater hwn ers llawer blwyddyn bellach a bu rhywfaint o oedi. A allwch fy sicrhau na fydd dim oedi pellach cyn cyhoeddi’r arweiniad hwn? Mae’r broses eisoes wedi cymryd cryn amser, ac mae angen dirfawr am yr arweiniad.

The Deputy First Minister: I very much agree with your sentiments, Sandy, about the need for this guidance to be introduced. As you know, we had to go through a consultation procedure; and I am as anxious as you are for this to be completed by the end of the summer. I appreciate your point; this is an important issue. Many of us, as Assembly Members, and as members of the Government, are regularly pressed by people to introduce this guidance so that the appropriate speed limits for our roads are introduced. As you know, we are also committed to increasing the number of 20 mph zones across Wales, particularly around schools and other sensitive areas.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Cytunaf yn llwyr â’ch safbwynt, Sandy, ynghylch yr angen i gyflwyno’r arweiniad. Fel y gwyddoch, yr oedd yn rhaid inni ddilyn y weithdrefn ymgynghori; ac yr wyf mor awyddus â chi i weld cwblhau hyn erbyn diwedd yr haf. Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi’ch pwynt; mae hwn yn fater pwysig. Mae nifer ohonom, fel Aelodau Cynulliad ac fel aelodau o Lywodraeth y DU, yn wynebu pwysau gan bobl i gyflwyno’r arweiniad hwn i sicrhau bod y cyfyngiadau cyflymder priodol yn cael eu cyflwyno ar ein ffyrdd. Fel y gwyddoch, yr ydym hefyd wedi ymrwymo i gynyddu nifer y parthau 20 mya yng Nghymru, yn enwedig yng nghyffiniau ysgolion a mannau sensitif eraill.

Mark Isherwood: When I wrote to your department, I was advised recently that new guidelines would be available in the spring or summer. Therefore, I am a little concerned to hear you say that it will be the end of the summer. I endorse Sandy’s call that there should be no further delays. I have also been involved in campaigns for many years, particularly in relation to the A5104 Corwen road from Coed-talon to Treuddyn, where there is still an active campaign. If you drive along the road, you will see signs outside almost every house. North Wales Police advise me that there is now an agreement in place between them and Flintshire County Council’s highways department, and they are confident that the new criteria for setting

Mark Isherwood: Pan ysgrifennais at eich adran, dywedwyd wrthyf yn ddiweddar y byddai arweiniad newydd ar gael yn y gwanwyn neu’r haf. Felly, yr wyf yn bryderus braidd o glywed na chaiff ei gyhoeddi tan ddiwedd yr haf. Yr wyf yn ategu galwad Sandy na ddylid oedi dim pellach. Yr wyf fi hefyd wedi bod yn gysylltiedig ag ymgyrchoedd ers blynyddoedd lawer, yn enwedig mewn cysylltiad â ffordd Corwen yr A5104 o Goed-talon i Dreuddyn, lle mae pobl wrthi’n ymgyrchu o hyd. Os byddwch yn gyrru ar hyd y ffordd, fe welwch arwyddion y tu allan i bob tŷ bron. Dywed Heddlu Gogledd Cymru wrthyf fod cytundeb bellach rhyngddynt ag adran priffyrdd Cyngor Sir y

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limits, when issued by you, will be met by this stretch of road. What assurance can you provide that local authorities will have the resource to implement the necessary traffic restrictions, working with the police, when your guidance is issued?

Fflint, a’u bod yn hyderus y bydd y rhan hon o’r ffordd yn bodloni’r meini prawf newydd ar gyfer pennu cyfyngiadau. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi y bydd gan awdurdodau lleol yr adnoddau i roi’r cyfyngiadau traffig angenrheidiol ar waith, drwy gydweithio â’r heddlu, pan gaiff eich arweiniad ei gyhoeddi.

The Deputy First Minister: I am not aware of any issues around resource implications for carrying out this particular work. However, many local authorities and the Welsh Assembly Government are looking for the introduction of the guidelines to enable us to set more appropriate speed limits where that is necessary.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ni wn am ddim problemau’n ymwneud ag adnoddau ar gyfer ymgymryd â’r gwaith penodol hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn edrych ymlaen at gyflwyno’r canllawiau hyn i’n galluogi i bennu cyfyngiadau cyflymder mwy priodol lle mae angen hynny.

I will make sure that the point that you make about the particular locality is brought to the attention of officials so that when the guidance is eventually published, you and other Assembly Members can be made aware of it.

Byddaf yn sicrhau bod y pwynt a godwyd gennych am yr ardal benodol yn cael ei ddwyn i sylw swyddogion er mwyn sicrhau, pan gaiff yr arweiniad ei gyhoeddi yn y pen draw, y gallwch chi ac Aelodau Cynulliad eraill gael gwybod amdano.

Nerys Evans: Y man cyntaf y mae’r ffordd sy’n croesi Cymru o Gaerdydd i Abergwaun yn mynd drwy bentref bach yw Llanddewi Felffre. Tan hynny, mae cerbydau wedi bod yn gyfarwydd â bod ar ffordd ddeuol ac felly mae’n broblem ceisio sicrhau bod y cerbydau hyn yn cadw at y cyflymder cyfreithiol, sef 40 mya, yn Llanddewi Felffre. Mae’r problemau yn waeth, hyd yn oed, o ystyried nifer y cerbydau trymion a lorïau sy’n teithio ar hyd y ffordd honno.

Nerys Evans: The first point where the road which crosses Wales from Cardiff to Fishguard goes through a small village is at Llanddewi Velfrey. Until that point, vehicles are used to being on a dual carriageway, and so there is a problem trying to get these vehicles to keep to the legal limit, which is 40 mph, at Llanddewi Velfrey. The problems are even worse given the number of heavy goods vehicles and lorries that travel along that road.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi am ymweld â’r pentref i glywed pryderon y trigolion lleol ac i weld eich hunan pa mor beryglus yw cerdded ar hyd y pafin yn y pentref. A allwch chi edrych ar yr hyn sy’n bosibl i wella diogelwch ar y ffordd honno, ac o ran sicrhau bod cerbydau’n glynu at y terfyn cyflymder cyfreithiol?

I am grateful to you for visiting the village and listening to the concerns of local residents, and to see for yourself how dangerous it is to walk along the pavement in the village. Could you look at what can be done to improve safety on that road, and to ensure that vehicles keep to the legal speed limit?

2.50 p.m.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr oeddwn yn falch o gael y cyfle i ymweld â’r safle yn eich cwmni chi ac yng nghwmni rhai o’r trigolion lleol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod ffyrdd fel hyn sy’n mynd drwy bentrefi bach yn gallu achosi pryder, yn arbennig o ran plant a’r henoed. Mae swyddogion yn edrych ar rai cynlluniau ar gyfer yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud

The Deputy First Minister: I was pleased to have the opportunity to visit the site with your and with some of the local residents. I am aware that roads such as these, which go through small villages, can cause concern, particularly for children and the elderly. Officials are looking at some of the plans for what can be done to improve the situation,

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i wella’r sefyllfa ac yr wyf yn gobeithio, ar ôl i ni gwblhau’r trafodaethau hynny, y gallaf ysgrifennu atoch gyda’r canlyniadau.

and I hope, having completed those discussions, to be able to write to you outlining the outcomes.

Priorities for the Coming Year Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y Flwyddyn Nesaf

Q8 Jenny Randerson: Will the Minister provide an update on his priorities for the coming year? OAQ(3)0975(ECT)

C8 Jenny Randerson: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ei flaenoriaethau am y flwyddyn nesaf? OAQ(3)0975(ECT)

The Deputy First Minister: My overriding priority is leading Wales out of recession and supporting businesses and individuals. I am focusing support to maintain viable businesses, assisting businesses to become more competitive and prioritising activities that support rapid and direct employment opportunities.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Fy mhrif flaenoriaeth yw arwain Cymru allan o’r dirwasgiad a rhoi cymorth i fusnesau ac unigolion. Yr wyf yn targedu cymorth at gynnal busnesau hyfyw, rhoi cymorth i fusnesau fod yn fwy cystadleuol, a blaenoriaethu gweithgareddau sy’n cefnogi cyfleoedd gwaith brys ac uniongyrchol.

Jenny Randerson: You make no mention in your reply of your priorities on transport issues. There are plenty of rumours and reports of problems connected with the funding of free bus passes for people aged over 60. Does the Government intend to continue to be committed to free bus passes for those aged over 60?

Jenny Randerson: Nid ydych yn sôn o gwbl yn eich ateb am eich blaenoriaethau ar gyfer materion trafnidiaeth. Mae digon o sibrydion ac adroddiadau am broblemau’n gysylltiedig ag ariannu tocynnau bws am ddim i bobl dros 60 oed. A yw’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu parhau ei hymrwymiad i ddarparu tocynnau bws am ddim i bobl dros 60 oed?

The Deputy First Minister: Yes. Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ydy.

Jenny Randerson: I am delighted to hear that. Can you assure us that your Government is not considering what the UK Government is apparently considering for England, which is limiting the use of those bus passes to off-peak travel only or to a maximum total spend in a year?

Jenny Randerson: Yr wyf yn falch dros ben clywed hynny. A allwch ein sicrhau nad yw eich Llywodraeth yn ystyried yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ymddangos yn ei ystyried ar gyfer Lloegr, sef cyfyngu defnyddio’r tocynnau bws hynny i adegau tawel yn unig neu gyflwyno uchafswm gwariant am y flwyddyn?

The Deputy First Minister: We have no intention whatsoever of changing the criteria of eligibility.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Nid oes gennym fwriad o gwbl i newid y meini prawf cymhwysedd.

Helen Mary Jones: Minister, I know that you are aware that the figures in my constituency in Llanelli for those claiming jobseekers allowance almost doubled between March 2008 and March 2009. Will you make a statement about the priority that the Assembly Government is giving to try to tackle the rising tide of joblessness, particularly in poorer communities such as Llanelli?

Helen Mary Jones: Gwn, Weinidog, eich bod yn ymwybodol bod y ffigurau ar gyfer y bobl yn fy etholaeth i yn Llanelli sy’n hawlio lwfans ceisio gwaith wedi dyblu bron rhwng Mawrth 2008 a Mawrth 2009. A wnewch chi wneud datganiad am y flaenoriaeth y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei rhoi i fynd i’r afael â’r ymchwydd mewn diweithdra, yn enwedig mewn cymunedau tlotach fel Llanelli?

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The Deputy First Minister: I understand the difficulties and hardships that are caused when people lose their jobs, particularly in communities such as those that you represent. That is why the Government has ensured that, if there are opportunities, we will assist people with training to improve their skills—that is appropriate under the ReAct scheme. We are also working with the jobcentres to make sure that people are given proper advice in relation to new job opportunities and what training might be needed through Careers Wales. We have enhanced the provision of Careers Wales, and we have also enhanced the funding for skills. Therefore, a lot of work is being done. That is alongside the work that my department is doing to try to attract new industries to areas such as yours. There is a comprehensive package of measures available to assist.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn deall yr anawsterau a’r caledi sy’n cael eu hachosi pan fydd pobl yn colli eu gwaith, yn enwedig mewn cymunedau fel y rhai yr ydych chi’n eu cynrychioli. Dyna pam y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi sicrhau, os oes cyfleoedd, y byddwn yn cynorthwyo pobl drwy eu hyfforddi i wella’u sgiliau—mae hynny’n briodol dan y cynllun ReAct. Yr ydym hefyd yn gweithio gyda chanolfannau gwaith i sicrhau bod pobl yn cael cyngor addas am gyfleoedd gwaith newydd a’r hyfforddant y gall fod ei angen arnynt drwy Gyrfa Cymru. Yr ydym wedi gwella darpariaeth Gyrfa Cymru, ac yr ydym hefyd wedi cynyddu’r cyllid ar gyfer sgiliau. Felly, mae llawer o waith yn cael ei wneud. Caiff hyn ei wneud ochr yn ochr â’r gwaith y mae fy adran yn ei wneud i geisio denu diwydiannau newydd i ardaloedd fel eich ardal chi. Mae pecyn cynhwysfawr o fesurau ar gael i gynorthwyo pobl.

Andrew R.T. Davies: One of the biggest concerns in my regional constituency is your pending announcement about the relief road to Cardiff airport. Yesterday, residents from Wenvoe presented a petition at the Senedd. Are you still on schedule to present your findings to Plenary by the end of the spring? If so, do you know when exactly that might be?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Un o’r pryderon mwyaf yn fy etholaeth ranbarthol i yw eich cyhoeddiad arfaethedig am y ffordd liniaru i faes awyr Caerdydd. Ddoe cyflwynodd trigolion Gwenfô ddeiseb yn y Senedd. A ydych yn llwyddo i gadw at yr amserlen i gyflwyno’ch darganfyddiadau i’r Cyfarfod Llawn erbyn diwedd y gwanwyn? Os ydych, a wyddoch pryd yn union fydd hynny?

The Deputy First Minister: I cannot tell you precisely when it will be. It is not the sort of announcement that I would normally want to bring to Plenary. However, I am available to be questioned on it at any time here.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Ni allaf ddweud wrthych pryd yn union fydd hynny. Nid dyna’r math o gyhoeddiad y byddwn yn ei wneud gerbron y Cyfarfod Llawn fel rheol. Fodd bynnag, gallwch fy holi am y mater unrhyw bryd yma.

Cwestiwn Brys Urgent Question

Llygru Cyflenwadau Dŵr Contamination of Water Supplies

Sandy Mewies: Will the Minister make a statement on the contamination of water supplies that is affecting 70,000 households and businesses in Flintshire and Denbighshire? EAQ(3)0814(ESH)

Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynglŷn â’r llygru cyflenwadau dŵr sy’n effeithio ar 70,000 o gartrefi a busnesau yn sir y Fflint a sir Ddinbych? EAQ(3)0814(ESH)

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson):

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Davidson): Precautionary boil water notices have been issued to customers in areas in Denbighshire and Flintshire following the detection of bacteria in the water that is treated for public supply, through routine sampling at the Alwen water treatment works. The companies and regulator have implemented standard procedures for dealing with such situations, and actions are well in hand.

Mae hysbysiadau rhagofalus i ferwi dŵr wedi eu rhoi i gwsmeriaid mewn rhannau o sir Ddinbych a sir y Fflint ar ôl i facteria gael eu darganfod yn y dŵr sy’n cael ei drin i’w gyflenwi i’r cyhoedd, yn dilyn gwaith samplo rheolaidd yng ngwaith trin dŵr Alwen. Mae’r cwmnïau a’r rheoleiddiwr wedi rhoi gweithdrefnau safonol ar waith i ddelio â sefyllfaoedd o’r fath, ac mae camau priodol yn cael eu cymryd.

Sandy Mewies: Thank you, Minister. I spoke to Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water this morning and I understand that it is working hard both to contain and resolve the issue caused by coliform bacteria. However, this is a great cause of concern to everyone affected, and they must be assured that everything possible is being done, particularly as I understand that some areas have been affected but have not yet been clearly identified, or had not been this morning.

Sandy Mewies: Diolch, Weinidog. Cefais drafodaethau gyda Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water y bore yma, a deallaf ei fod yn gweithio’n galed i gyfyngu a datrys y broblem a achoswyd gan facteria coliform. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yn achos pryder mawr i bawb y mae’n effeithio arnynt, a rhaid eu sicrhau bod popeth posibl yn cael ei wneud, yn enwedig gan fy mod yn cael ar ddeall bod hyn wedi effeithio ar rai ardaloedd ond nad ydynt wedi eu nodi hyd yma, neu dyna oedd y sefyllfa y bore yma.

Minister, given that this is the latest in a cluster of problems that have affected water supplies in north Wales in recent months, can you assure me that you will make monitoring your top priority, and that everything possible will be done to identify and address the cause of the latest contamination and to restore water supplies to normal as soon as possible?

Weinidog, o gofio mai dyma’r digwyddiad diweddaraf mewn cyfres o broblemau sydd wedi effeithio ar gyflenwadau dŵr yn y Gogledd yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf, a allwch fy sicrhau mai gwaith monitro fydd eich prif flaenoriaeth, ac y bydd popeth posibl yn cael ei wneud i ddarganfod achos y digwyddiad diweddaraf o lygru, ac i roi sylw iddo ac adfer y cyflenwadau dŵr i’w cyflwr arferol cyn gynted â phosibl?

Jane Davidson: I can absolutely assure you that monitoring is a top priority. Our strategic policy position statement on water makes it our top priority that everyone in Wales should have access to clean, wholesome drinking water. We work closely with the Drinking Water Inspectorate to ensure that water companies comply with statutory monitoring requirements, and it is worth pointing out that in this case it is that regular monitoring that has led to the precautionary measure.

Jane Davidson: Gallaf eich sicrhau bod monitro yn brif flaenoriaeth. Mae ein datganiad sefyllfa ar y polisi strategol ar ddŵr yn golygu ei bod yn brif flaenoriaeth i sicrhau bod pawb yng Nghymru yn cael dŵr yfed glân ac iach. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r Arolygiaeth Dŵr Yfed i sicrhau bod cwmnïau dŵr yn cydymffurfio â gofynion monitro statudol, ac mae’n werth nodi mai gwaith monitro rheolaidd yn yr achos hwn sydd wedi arwain at y mesurau rhagofalus.

Darren Millar: Like Sandy Mewies, I am very concerned about this problem, which affects a significant number of homes and businesses in my constituency. My office has also been in touch with Dŵr Cymru, and I am extremely disappointed to note that it made no attempt whatsoever to contact my office

Darren Millar: Fel Sandy Mewies, yr wyf yn bryderus iawn am y broblem hon, sy’n effeithio ar nifer sylweddol o gartrefi a busnesau yn fy etholaeth. Mae fy swyddfa wedi bod mewn cysylltiad â Dŵr Cymru, ac yr wyf yn siomedig iawn na wnaeth y cwmni ddim ymdrech o gwbl i gysylltu â’m swyddfa

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when it identified that there were problems with the water quality in my constituency. I am also concerned that this is the latest in a series of water quality problems in north Wales in particular, and that that is in spite of significant increases in water charges to consumers in recent years, although we have been told that the reason for those increases is the need to ensure the quality of the water supply. Clearly, Dŵr Cymru is failing the people of north Wales at the moment, and I would urge you to ensure that it keeps elected representatives informed, particularly representatives of the Assembly, given that it did not do so until earlier today. It was this afternoon, in fact, when I received the first communication from Dŵr Cymru. I would also urge you to work with it to make sure that this sort of situation does not arise again unnecessarily, particularly given the increases in charges.

i pan ddarganfuwyd y problemau gydag ansawdd y dŵr yn fy etholaeth. Yr wyf yn bryderus hefyd mai’r achos hwn yw’r diweddaraf mewn cyfres o broblemau gydag ansawdd dŵr yn y gogledd yn fwyaf arbennig, a hynny er gwaethaf y cynnydd sylweddol mewn costau dŵr i ddefnyddwyr yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, er eu bod wedi dweud wrthym mai’r rheswm dros y cynnydd yw’r angen am sicrhau ansawdd y cyflenwad dŵr. Mae’n amlwg nad yw Dŵr Cymru yn llwyddo i ddarparu gwasanaeth boddhaol i bobl y Gogledd ar hyn o bryd, ac yr wyf yn eich annog i sicrhau ei fod yn rhoi gwybod i gynrychiolwyr etholedig, yn enwedig cynrychiolwyr y Cynulliad, o gofio na wnaeth hynny tan yn gynharach heddiw. Yn wir, y prynhawn yma oedd y tro cyntaf i Ddŵr Cymru gysylltu â mi. Yr wyf hefyd yn eich annog i weithio gyda’r cwmni i sicrhau siŵr na fydd sefyllfa o’r fath yn codi eto’n ddiangen, yn enwedig o gofio’r cynnydd y costau.

Jane Davidson: There are two things that I would want to say in response. I am happy that the action that Dŵr Cymru took when, through its regular monitoring, it identified a problem, was to make sure immediately that there was a boil water notice in place. I am sure that everyone in the Assembly would want to support that precautionary measure. It is also worth emphasising that blanket sampling of taps across the network has so far shown no problems, so it is currently isolating the problem to the Alwen water treatment works. The next sampling outcomes come in today at 3.30 p.m. You made a point about other problems, and it is important that I emphasise that this is completely unrelated to the cryptosporidium outbreak in north Wales. Some £120 million is being spent on adding a stage of treatment to 22 works in relation to cryptosporidium, the majority being in north Wales and some in south Wales. Penybont water treatment works, for example, has been done, and Dŵr Cymru is currently on site at Rhiw Goch, Mynydd Llandegai and Cwellyn. Ultraviolet treatment is being put in place at 20 sites to make sure that there are no further cryptosporidium outbreaks. I have been in contact with the chief executive of Dŵr Cymru today, and I will maintain that link in order to ensure that the Assembly is fully

Jane Davidson: Hoffwn ddweud dau beth wrth ymateb. Yr wyf yn hapus mai’r cam a gymerodd Dŵr Cymru pan ddarganfu fod problem, drwy ei waith monitro rheolaidd, oedd sicrhau ar unwaith fod hysbysiad yn cael ei gyhoeddi i ferwi’r dŵr. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pawb yn y Cynulliad yn cefnogi’r mesur rhagofalus hwnnw. Mae’n werth pwysleisio hefyd nad yw samplau hollgynhwysfawr o dapiau ar draws y rhwydwaith wedi dangos dim problemau hyd yma. Felly, ar hyn o bryd mae’r broblem wedi’i chyfyngu i waith trin dŵr Alwen. Bydd canlyniadau’r samplau nesaf ar gael am 3.30 p.m. heddiw. Codasoch bwyntiau am broblemau eraill, ac mae’n bwysig imi bwysleisio nad oes cysylltiad o gwbl rhwng yr achos hwn â’r achos cryptosporidiwm yn y Gogledd. Mae oddeutu £120 miliwn yn cael ei wario ar ychwanegu cam trin arall mewn 22 o weithfeydd mewn cysylltiad â cryptosporidiwm, gyda’r mwyafrif yn y Gogledd a rhai yn y De. Mae’r gwaith yng ngwaith trin dŵr Pen-y-bont, er enghraifft, wedi’i gwblhau, ac mae Dŵr Cymru yn gweithio ar y safleoedd yn Rhiw Goch, Mynydd Llandygái a Chwellyn ar hyn o bryd. Mae triniaeth uwch fioled yn cael ei chyflwyno mewn 20 o safleoedd i sicrhau na fydd dim achosion pellach o gryptosporidiwm. Yr wyf wedi bod mewn

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informed. cysylltiad â phrif weithredwr Dŵr Cymru heddiw, a byddaf yn cadw mewn cysylltiad i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn cael gwybod am yr holl ddatblygiadau.

Carl Sargeant: Minister, I understand that when these incidents happen, there will be policies that trigger the boil water notices that are sent out to constituents. However, I do not accept that the data available to these companies are not held at a postcode level. I have an issue today in that the documents provided to me by Dŵr Cymru said that upper Connah’s Quay is affected by this problem. Eighteen thousand people live in Connah’s Quay, and only the upper part of it is affected. I have lived there all my life, and I do not have a clue where upper Connah’s Quay is, so I am concerned that there are people within that community who may still not be informed about the need to boil water. That is something that you need to look at closely with the company to ensure that everyone is aware of this serious health and public safety issue that has been brought to our attention today.

Carl Sargeant: Weinidog, pan fydd achosion fel hyn yn digwydd, deallaf fod polisïau ar waith sy’n sbarduno’r hysbysiadau berwi dŵr sy’n cael eu hanfon at etholwyr. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn derbyn bod y data sydd ar gael i’r cwmnïau hyn yn cael eu cadw ar lefel cod post. Mae gennyf broblem heddiw gan fod y dogfennau a roddwyd imi gan Ddŵr Cymru yn dweud bod y broblem hon yn efeithio ar Gei Connah uchaf. Mae deunaw mil o bobl yn byw yng Nghei Connah, a rhan uchaf y dref yn unig sy’n dioddef. Yr wyf wedi byw yno ar hyd fy oes, ac nid oes gennyf syniad ble mae Cei Connah uchaf, felly, yr wyf yn poeni bod pobl yn y gymuned honno heb gael gwybod bod angen berwi dŵr. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae angen ichi edrych arno’n ofalus gyda’r cwmni i sicrhau bod pawb yn ymwybodol o’r mater difrifol hwn o ran iechyd a diogelwch cyhoeddus sydd wedi’i ddwyn i’n sylw heddiw.

3.00 p.m.

Jane Davidson: You raise an important point. Just giving the name of a village or town, or part of a town, will not necessarily enable people to identify their locality. The company is sending out letters to all the households affected today, but I will take your concerns back to the company and try to ensure that, in future, we can get a list of postcodes. They must have that information to ensure that it is the customers of the Alwen water treatment works who get the appropriate letter, and not customers of other water treatment works, who will be unaffected.

Jane Davidson: Yr ydych yn codi pwynt pwysig. Ni fydd rhoi enw pentref neu dref, neu ran o dref, yn unig yn galluogi pobl o reidrwydd i weld ym mha ardal y maent. Mae’r cwmni’n anfon llythyrau heddiw i’r holl gartrefi yr effeithir arnynt, ond rhoddaf wybod i’r cwmni am eich pryderon a cheisiaf sicrhau y gallwn gael rhestr o godau post yn y dyfodol. Rhaid bod y wybodaeth honno ganddynt er mwyn sicrhau mai cwsmeriaid gwaith trin dŵr Alwen a gaiff y llythyr priodol, nid cwsmeriaid gweithfeydd trin dŵr eraill nad effeithir arnynt.

Eleanor Burnham: I take Carl’s point. I was listening to Radio Cymru this morning at about 8 a.m. and ‘upper Connah’s Quay’ was mentioned, which made me wonder which part of Connah’s Quay that was. I am looking at a comprehensive map of the affected area, which was sent by email at 1.38 p.m. today, but it stretches beyond Connah’s Quay, right up to the coast to Gronant and Ffynnongroyw, which must be confusing for

Eleanor Burnham: Derbyniaf y pwynt a wnaeth Carl. Yr oeddwn yn gwrando ar Radio Cymru y bore yma tuag wyth o’r gloch chyfeiriwyd at ‘Gei Connah uchaf’, a barodd imi feddwl tybed pa ran o Gei Connah oedd honno. Yr wyf yn edrych ar fap cynhwysfawr o’r ardal yr effeithir arni, map a anfonwyd drwy’r e-bost am 1.38 p.m. heddiw, ond mae’n ymestyn y tu hwnt i Gei Connah i fyny at yr arfordir i Ronant a Ffynnongroyw, a

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residents. rhaid bod hynny’n achosi penbleth i breswylwyr.

I want to ask about the identification of more vulnerable members of society, such as older people, babies, and people with renal failure, because that was the issue with Cryptosporidium in Gwynedd not too long ago. It is an important issue, and I wonder whether you can give us reassurances. On ultraviolet water treatment, which sites in north Wales use that? Has ultraviolet treatment been used in the water works that we are talking about today?

Yr wyf am holi ynghylch nodi aelodau o’r gymdeithas sy’n fwy agored i niwed, fel pobl hŷn, babanod a phobl sydd â methiant yr arennau, gan mai hynny oedd y broblem mewn cysylltiad â Cryptosporidiwm yng Ngwynedd yn lled ddiweddar. Mae’n fater pwysig, ac yr wyf yn dyfalu tybed a allwch gynnig sicrwydd i ni. O ran triniaeth dŵr uwchfioled, pa safleoedd yn y gogledd sy’n defnyddio’r dull hwnnw? A yw triniaeth uwchfioled wedi’i defnyddio yn y gwaith trin dŵr yr ydym yn sôn amdano heddiw?

Jane Davidson: It is important to emphasise that, at this point, this is not an outbreak as far as any individual’s health being affected. That is why the water boiling notice has been put in place: as a precautionary measure. In the event of an outbreak, action plans devised for such instances would come into play, and the national public health service would liaise closely with the local authority and environmental health officer in handling the situation.

Jane Davidson: Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio nad yw hwn, ar hyn o bryd, yn achos sy’n effeithio ar iechyd unigolion o gwbl. Dyna pam y rhoddwyd y rhybudd i ferwi dŵr: fel mesur rhagofalus. Os bydd digwyddiad, byddai cynlluniau wedi eu dyfeisio ar gyfer achosion felly yn dod i rym, a byddai’r gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus cenedlaethol yn cysylltu’n agos â’r awdurdod lleol a swyddog iechyd yr amgylchedd wrth ddelio â’r sefyllfa.

With the information that has gone out to individuals, health authorities, and into the public domain, there is a set of advice related to common questions that people would want to ask. It demonstrates that we are working closely with the national public health service, environmental health officers, and local health boards to ensure that any possible risks to the public are kept to a minimum.

O ran y wybodaeth a roddwyd i unigolion, awdurdodau iechyd a’r cyhoedd, mae yna set o gynghorion yn ymwneud â chwestiynau cyffredin y byddai pobl am eu gofyn. Mae’n dangos ein bod yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus cenedlaethol, swyddogion iechyd yr amgylchedd, a byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau bod unrhyw beryglon posibl i’r cyhoedd yn cael eu cyfyngu i’r graddau mwyaf posibl.

Janet Ryder: I add my concerns to those already raised, but I am particularly concerned that contact from Assembly Members has been required to find out proper information from Dŵr Cymru about this. I understand that the water boiling notice has been issued, but unless people were listening to the radio this morning, they will not have heard about it. A huge area has been affected, and, while I appreciate that there is a point about logistics, and the Minister has said that this is not an immediate threat to people’s health, it is nevertheless the case that many people will not hear of this until tonight, when they watch the television, or lunch time at the earliest. There has been no evidence in

Janet Ryder: Ychwanegaf fy mhryderon at y rheiny a godwyd eisoes, ond yr wyf yn pryderu’n neilltuol fod angen i Aelodau Cynulliad gysylltu â Dŵr Cymru i gael gwybodaeth briodol am hyn. Yr wyf yn deall bod y rhybudd i ferwi dŵr wedi’i gyhoeddi, ond oni bai bod pobl yn gwrando ar y radio y bore yma, ni fyddant wedi clywed amdano. Effeithiwyd ar ardal eang iawn, ac er fy mod yn sylweddoli bod yna bwynt ynghylch logisteg, a bod y Gweinidog wedi dweud nad yw hyn yn fygythiad uniongyrchol i iechyd pobl, mae’n wir, er hynny, na fydd llawer o bobl yn clywed am hyn tan heno, pan fyddant yn gwylio’r teledu, neu amser cinio ar y cynharaf. Ni fu dim sôn mewn ardaloedd fel

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areas such as Ruthin of loudhailer vans going around to notify the population. Had this been a serious outbreak, and people had to be notified immediately, will the Minister check with Dŵr Cymru whether any further precautions would have been taken? What steps will it take in the future to ensure that as many people as possible are notified immediately, perhaps working with the emergency services to achieve that? I accept what the Minister has said, that this is not a life-threatening issue at the moment, but a future issue could be life threatening, and we need to develop the ability to communicate this kind of message to many people quickly.

Rhuthun am faniau gyda chorn siarad yn mynd o gwmpas i hysbysu pobl. Pe buasai hwn yn achos difrifol, a bod rhaid hysbysu pobl ar unwaith, a wnaiff y Gweinidog holi Dŵr Cymru i weld a fyddai unrhyw gamau rhagofalu pellach wedi’u cymryd? Pa gamau a gymer yn y dyfodol i sicrhau bod cynifer â phosibl o bobl wedi cael gwybod ar unwaith, efallai drwy weithio gyda’r gwasanaethau brys i gyflawni hynny? Yr wyf yn derbyn yr hyn y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddweud, nad yw hyn yn fater sy’n bygwth bywyd ar hyn o bryd, ond gallai mater yn y dyfodol fygwth bywyd, ac mae angen inni ddatblygu’r gallu i drosglwyddo neges o’r math hwn i lawer o bobl yn gyflym.

Jane Davidson: As I pointed out from my conversation with Dŵr Cymru, the blanket sampling of tap water across the network has shown no problems so far, and letters are going out to all those affected by the water boiling notice today. You make the point about how this has been handled, and how that might influence future circumstances, so it might be useful for Members if I ask the chief executive of Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water to write to me with the plan regarding how the company manages these issues. I will then make that available to all Assembly Members to give you that comfort about how you can contact your constituents.

Jane Davidson: Fel yr eglurais o’m sgwrs gyda Dŵr Cymru, nid yw’r samplu cyffredinol ar ddŵr tap ar draws y rhwydwaith wedi dangos dim problemau hyd yn hyn, ac anfonir llythyrau heddiw at bawb y mae’r rhybudd i ferwi dŵr yn effeithio arnynt. Yr ydych yn gwneud y pwynt am y modd y deliwyd â hyn, a sut y gallai hynny ddylanwadu ar amgylchiadau yn y dyfodol, felly, gallai fod o gymorth i Aelodau pe byddwn yn gofyn i brif weithredwr Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water ysgrifennu ataf gyda’r cynllun ar gyfer dull y cwmni o reoli’r materion hyn. Darparaf hwnnw wedyn i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad er mwyn rhoi ichi’r cysur hwnnw ynghylch y modd y gallwch gysylltu â’ch etholwyr.

Mark Isherwood: We must be reassured that this is only a precautionary notice to boil water and that testing identified this need before there was any evidence that anyone had become ill as a consequence. Hopefully, no-one will become ill, but should any incidents be reported, what action would be taken?

Mark Isherwood: Rhaid inni gael sicrwydd nad yw hwn ond rhybudd rhagofalus i ferwi dŵr, a bod profion wedi dangos yr angen hwn cyn bod unrhyw dystiolaeth fod rhywun wedi mynd yn sâl o ganlyniad. Gobeithio na fydd neb yn mynd yn sâl, ond pe byddai adroddiadau am unrhyw ddigwyddiadau, pa gamau a gymerid?

The statement from Welsh Water—which was given to the media before elected representatives—said that people with special medical needs would be supplied with boiled water. How will they be identified and how rapidly will that occur to ensure that these people do not receive those water supplies too late?

Yn y datganiad gan Dŵr Cymru—a roddwyd i’r cyfryngau cyn ei roi i gynrychiolwyr etholedig—dywedwyd y byddai pobl sydd ag anghenion meddygol arbennig yn cael cyflenwad o ddŵr wedi’i ferwi. Sut y cânt eu nodi, a pha mor gyflym y bydd hynny’n digwydd er mwyn sicrhau na fydd y bobl hyn yn cael y cyflenwadau dŵr hynny’n rhy hwyr?

On the geographical issues that Carl touched Ynghylch y problemau daearyddol y

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upon, the list supplied by the BBC excludes the village in which I live, although surrounding areas are affected, and the map shows that it is on the border line. Therefore, how confident can those communities that have not been named thus far be that they should not be boiling their water? Should we be asking the surrounding towns and villages to follow the precautionary principle just in case?

cyfeiriodd Carl atynt, nid yw’r rhestr a ddarparwyd gan y BBC yn cynnwys y pentref lle’r wyf fi’n byw, er bod hyn yn effeithio ar ardaloedd o amgylch, ac mae’r map yn dangos ei fod ar y ffin. Felly, pa mor sicr y gall y cymunedau hynny sydd heb eu henwi hyd yma fod na ddylent ferwi eu dŵr? A ddylem ofyn i’r trefi a’r pentrefi o amgylch ddilyn yr egwyddor ragofalus rhag ofn?

Several points have been made about the action that is being taken. Welsh Water has said that it will be going out and about in the affected communities to spread the message that water should be boiled. How will we ensure that that message gets to people who live in isolation, either geographically speaking or because of age or infirmity?

Gwnaethpwyd nifer o bwyntiau am y camau a gymerir. Mae Dŵr Cymru wedi dweud y bydd yn mynd o gwmpas y cymunedau yr effeithir arnynt i roi’r gair ar led y dylid berwi dŵr. Sut y byddwn yn sicrhau bod y neges honno’n cyrraedd pobl sy’n byw ar wahân, un ai’n ddaearyddol ynteu oherwydd henaint neu lesgedd?

Jane Davidson: I am grateful to you for emphasising at the beginning of your question that this is a precautionary approach, and it is the right and proper approach to take. You asked a specific question about whether people who are unsure whether they are within the affected area should boil their water. I would always support the precautionary principle, and so, until people know whether they are to receive the letter, it makes sense for them to boil their water if they believe that they are covered by the Alwen treatment works. However, the letters are going out today and will go to all households. Therefore, it will not depend on rurality in that sense. As has already been said, there are identification procedures with the public health service, with local health boards, for those with special medical needs. These procedures ensure that these people are individually notified.

Jane Davidson: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi am bwysleisio ar ddechrau’ch cwestiwn mai dull rhagofalus yw hwn, a dyna’r dull cywir i’w ddefnyddio. Gofynnech gwestiwn penodol ynghylch a ddylai pobl ferwi dŵr os nad ydynt yn sicr a ydynt yn yr ardal y mae hyn yn effeithio arni. Byddwn bob amser yn cefnogi’r egwyddor ragofalus, ac felly, nes bydd pobl yn gwybod a fyddant yn cael y llythyr, mae’n synhwyrol iddynt ferwi eu dŵr os credant eu bod yn dod o dan waith trin Alwen. Fodd bynnag, mae’r llythyrau’n cael eu hanfon heddiw a byddant yn cyrraedd pob cartref. Felly, ni fydd yn dibynnu ar natur wledig eu hardal yn yr ystyr honno. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae gan y gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus weithdrefnau adnabod, gyda byrddau iechyd lleol, ar gyfer pobl sydd ag anghenion meddygol arbennig. Mae’r gweithdrefnau hyn yn sicrhau bod y pobl hyn yn cael gwybod yn unigol.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i’r Gweinidog am ateb y cwestiwn brys.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister for answering the urgent question.

Datganiad am Ffliw MochStatement on Swine Influenza

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The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I want to update Members on the reports of human cases of swine flu in Mexico, in other parts of the world, and the state of preparedness in Wales. Members will be aware that the World Health Organization declared that we had moved from its pandemic flu alert level phase 3 to phase 4 on the evening of 27 April. That means that there is evidence of increased human-to-human transmission, but it is not at phase 6, which is when pandemic flu is declared. It is too early to say that a global pandemic is inevitable.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Yr wyf am roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i Aelodau am yr adroddiadau am achosion o’r ffliw moch ymhlith pobl ym Mecsico, mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd, ac am y parodrwydd yng Nghymru. Bydd Aelodau’n ymwybodol bod Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd wedi datgan ein bod wedi symud o gam 3 yn lefel ei rybudd o ffliw pandemig i gam 4 ar noson 27 Ebrill. Mae hynny’n golygu bod tystiolaeth o fwy o drosglwyddo rhwng pobl, ond nid yw wedi cyrraedd cam 6, pan gyhoeddir ffliw pandemig. Mae’n rhy gynnar dweud bod pandemig byd-eang yn anorfod.

The outbreak started in Mexico in mid March. The number of deaths likely to have been caused by swine flu has risen to more than 150. Six other countries have officially reported cases of swine influenza, A(H1N1) infection, with one death of a 23-month-old child in the USA reported today. Outside Mexico, we are seeing small numbers of cases among people who have been linked with visits to Mexico. The United States Government has reported 64 laboratory confirmed human cases. Canada has reported 13. There are 14 in New Zealand, two in Israel, two in Spain, and one in Costa Rica. In many of those cases, those infected are reported as having a mild illness.

Dechreuodd yr achosion ym Mecsico ganol mis Mawrth. Mae nifer y marwolaethau sy’n debygol o fod wedi’u hachosi gan y ffliw moch wedi codi i fwy na 150. Mae chwe gwlad arall lle cofnodwyd achosion o’r ffliw moch, haint A(H1N1), yn swyddogol, a chofnodwyd marwolaeth plentyn 23 mis oed yn UDA heddiw. Y tu allan i Fecsico, yr ydym yn gweld niferoedd bach o achosion ymysg pobl sydd wedi’u cysylltu ag ymweliadau â Mecsico. Mae Llywodraeth yr Unol Daleithiau wedi cofnodi 64 o achosion mewn pobl sydd wedi’u cadarnhau gan labordy. Mae Canada wedi cofnodi 13. Mae 14 yn Seland Newydd, dau yn Israel, dau yn Sbaen, ac un yn Costa Rica. Mewn nifer o’r achosion hynny, cofnodwyd bod salwch ysgafn ar y rheiny a heintiwyd.

Two cases were confirmed in Scotland on 26 April and, at 1pm today, three cases were confirmed in England, with another 76 patients in the UK currently being tested for the virus. The situation is fluid and there are cases under investigation across the UK. We expect more cases to be confirmed in travellers recently returned from Mexico. In Wales, we are investigating 20 people, but there have been no confirmed cases yet.

Cadarnhawyd dau achos yn yr Alban ar 26 Ebrill, ac am un o’r gloch heddiw cadarnhawyd tri achos yn Lloegr, ac mae 76 o gleifion eraill yn y DU yn cael prawf am y feirws ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r sefyllfa’n newid yn barhaus ac mae ymchwiliadau i achosion ledled y DU. Yr ydym yn disgwyl gweld cadarnhau mwy o achosion ymhlith teithwyr sydd wedi dychwelyd o Fecsico yn ddiweddar. Yng Nghymru, yr ydym yn archwilio 20 o bobl, ond ni chadarnhawyd dim achosion eto.

I am working closely with ministerial colleagues in the other home countries through the formal COBRA system. This includes regular ministerial discussions, supported by officials in a variety of working groups at a UK level.

Yr wyf yn gweithio’n agos gyda chyd-Weinidogion yng ngwledydd eraill Prydain drwy’r system COBRA ffurfiol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys trafodaethau rheolaidd rhwng gweinidogion, gyda chymorth swyddogion mewn amryw o weithgorau ar lefel y DU.

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Senior representatives of Welsh Assembly Government departments have been meeting daily with key partners to consider response arrangements. The chief constables in Wales, as chairs of our four local resilience fora, were briefed over the weekend on the developing situation, and they met at the Welsh Assembly Government on Monday where they were briefed by the emergency services civil contingencies adviser. Multi-agency strategic co-ordinating group meetings have been arranged this week to prepare local response arrangements. An extraordinary meeting of the Wales resilience forum will also be held tomorrow afternoon. These meetings are precautionary and prudent measures to ensure that arrangements are in place to fully activate the multi-agency plans that have been developed should they be required.

Mae uwch gynrychiolwyr o adrannau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi bod yn cwrdd bob dydd â phartneriaid allweddol i ystyried trefniadau ymateb. Cafodd prif gwnstabliaid Cymru, fel cadeiryddion ein pedwar fforwm lleol Cymru Gydnerth, eu briffio dros y penwythnos ar y sefyllfa sy’n datblygu, a chawsant gyfarfod yn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ddydd Llun pan gawsant eu briffio gan gynghorydd argyfyngau sifil posibl y gwasanaethau brys. Trefnwyd cyfarfodydd o’r grŵp cydgysylltu strategol aml-asiantaeth yr wythnos hon i baratoi trefniadau ymateb lleol. Cynhelir cyfarfod arbennig o fforwm Cymru Gydnerth hefyd brynhawn yfory. Mae’r cyfarfodydd hyn yn fesurau rhagofalus a gochelgar i sicrhau bod trefniadau wedi’u gwneud i roi’r cynlluniau aml-asiantaeth a ddatblygwyd ar waith yn drylwyr os bydd eu hangen.

3.10 p.m.

We held a successful exercise last week to test our pandemic flu plans at all levels across Wales, to ensure that they were robust and that we could put measures in place swiftly to manage any potential outbreak. That exercise was not in response to the current situation but part of a programme of exercises co-ordinated by the Cabinet Office, which had been planned over the past nine months. The plans that were tested are the culmination of a considerable amount of activity that has been taking place on flu planning across Wales in recent years. The exercise provided a good opportunity to rehearse the roles that all organisations and key staff will have in responding to an outbreak. It proved that we have in place an effective framework within which we can respond to pandemic flu in Wales.

Cynhaliwyd ymarferiad llwyddiannus yr wythnos diwethaf i roi prawf ar ein cynlluniau ffliw pandemig ar bob lefel ledled Cymru, i sicrhau eu bod yn ddibynadwy ac y gallem gymryd camau’n gyflym i reoli unrhyw achos posibl. Nid ymateb oedd yr ymarferiad hwnnw i’r sefyllfa bresennol ond rhan o raglen o ymarferiadau a gydgysylltwyd gan Swyddfa’r Cabinet. Yr oedd wedi’i chynllunio dros y naw mis diwethaf. Mae’r cynlluniau y rhoddwyd prawf arnynt yn uchafbwynt i weithgarwch sylweddol a fu ar gynllunio rhag ffliw ledled Cymru yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Yr oedd yr ymarferiad yn gyfle da i ymarfer rolau’r holl gyrff a’r staff allweddol wrth ymateb i achosion. Dangosodd fod gennym fframwaith effeithiol y gallwn ei ddefnyddio i ymateb i ffliw pandemig yng Nghymru .

Meetings have been held with the NHS this week to review its response plans in light of both current events and the recent exercise. These plans cover all aspects of the healthcare system and are supported by a range of preventive measures that will be put in place in the next few days. These include, for example, guidelines to assist in the identification and management of cases, accessing anti-viral drugs, and the dissemination of public messages about the importance of hygiene.

Cynhaliwyd cyfarfodydd gyda’r GIG yr wythnos hon i adolygu ei gynlluniau ymateb yng ngoleuni digwyddiadau cyfredol a’r ymarferiad yn ddiweddar. Mae’r cynlluniau hyn yn ymdrin â phob agwedd ar y system gofal iechyd, ac mae amryw fesurau ataliol i’w hategu a roddir ar waith yn y diwrnodau nesaf. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys, er enghraifft, ganllawiau i helpu adnabod a rheoli achosion, gallu cael cyffuriau gwrthfeirysol, a lledaenu negeseuon i’r cyhoedd am bwysigrwydd hylendid.

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There are simple steps that everyone can take to prevent catching colds and flu, based on good respiratory and hand hygiene such as always using a tissue when you sneeze, throwing away used tissues where germs can linger, and regularly washing your hands. The UK Government will be launching an advertising campaign in the next few days on good hygiene practice in light of the swine flu outbreak. That will include the delivery of an advice leaflet to every household and will be tailored to Wales, including by being bilingual.

Mae yna gamau syml y gall pawb eu cymryd rhag dal annwyd a ffliw, yn seiliedig ar hylendid da mewn cysylltiad ag anadlu a’r dwylo, fel defnyddio hances bapur bob tro pan fyddwch yn tisian, taflu hancesi papur lle gall germau lechu ar ôl eu defnyddio, a golchi’ch dwylo’n rheolaidd. Bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn lansio ymgyrch hysbysebu yn y diwrnodau nesaf ar arferion hylendid da yng ngoleuni’r achosion o’r ffliw moch. Bydd honno’n cynnwys dosbarthu taflen gynghori i bob aelwyd, a bydd wedi’i haddasu ar gyfer Cymru, gan gynnwys bod yn ddwyieithog.

When I wrote to Assembly Members on 27 April, I said that we must expect cases to be reported in Wales. While it is natural for people to feel apprehensive, we can reassure the public that we are working to prepare for the arrival of the virus, and we have robust procedures in place. I will ensure that Members are kept regularly briefed on events as the situation changes.

Pan ysgrifennais at Aelodau’r Cynulliad ar 27 Ebrill, dywedais ei bod yn rhaid inni ddisgwyl gweld cofnodi achosion yng Nghymru. Er ei bod yn naturiol i bobl deimlo’n bryderus, gallwn sicrhau’r cyhoedd ein bod yn gweithio i baratoi ar gyfer dyfodiad y feirws, ac mae gennym weithdrefnau dibynadwy ar waith. Byddaf yn sicrhau y caiff Aelodau eu briffio’n rheolaidd am ddigwyddiadau wrth i’r sefyllfa newid.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for your statement this afternoon and for yesterday’s briefing to opposition spokesmen with the Chief Medical Officer for Wales; it was of great help in facilitating the flow of information, which will be critical in meeting the challenges that we might face. I recall reading a small footnote in a side column of a newspaper last week about a new strain of flu that had been found in Mexico. At that time, the number of cases was limited but, by Monday, every media outlet was covering it and it became the main story. Now, it is Wednesday and it is still the main story. I am sure that we all hope that the worst-case scenario will not occur on our shores. We have been told by the World Health Organization that containment is not an option. Cases have come to light in Britain but we all hope that they will not lead to the worst-case scenario of pandemic flu being just around the corner, which people have been prophesising for the past 10 years.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch i chi am eich datganiad y prynhawn yma ac am y briffio ddoe i lefarwyr y gwrthbleidiau gyda Phrif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru; yr oedd o gymorth mawr i hwyluso llif gwybodaeth, a fydd yn hollbwysig wrth ateb yr heriau a all ein hwynebu. Cofiaf ddarllen troednodyn bach mewn colofn ochr mewn papur newydd yr wythnos diwethaf am fath newydd o ffliw a oedd wedi’i ddarganfod ym Mecsico. Bryd hynny yr oedd nifer yr achosion yn fach, ond erbyn dydd Llun yr oedd pob un o’r cyfryngau’n rhoi sylw iddo a daeth yn brif stori. Erbyn hyn mae’n ddydd Mercher ac mae’n dal yn brif stori. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn gobeithio na fydd y sefyllfa waethaf yn digwydd ar ein tir ni. Mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd wedi dweud wrthym nad yw ei gyfyngu’n ddewis posibl. Mae achosion wedi dod i’r amlwg ym Mhrydain, ond gobaith pob un ohonom yw na fyddant yn arwain at y sefyllfa waethaf o gael ffliw pandemig ar garreg ein drws, sef yr hyn y mae pobl wedi’i broffwydo dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf.

In some respects, that prophesising has helped with organising and preparing for this

I ryw raddau, mae’r proffwydo hwnnw wedi bod o gymorth i drefnu a pharatoi ar gyfer y

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situation. I note that you highlighted in your statement that a training exercise was held last Thursday on the response times of our public bodies to ensure that they were well equipped to respond to such a crisis, although it was not a reaction to the current crisis.

sefyllfa hon. Sylwaf ichi dynnu sylw yn eich datganiad at y ffaith fod ymarferiad hyfforddi wedi’i gynnal ddydd Iau diwethaf ar amseroedd ymateb ein cyrff cyhoeddus i sicrhau eu bod yn barod i ymateb i argyfwng o’r fath, er nad adwaith ydoedd i’r argyfwng presennol.

A point that struck me as I came down to the Chamber this afternoon was the plight of people arriving here from international flights. I appreciate that Heathrow airport is not part of the jurisdiction of this institution, but it is a point of entry for many, like other airports in the UK. I do not know whether you can fly directly to Mexico from Cardiff airport. However, when passengers left Mexico, they were told that they would be screened on entry to the United Kingdom, but no screening was undertaken when they arrived. They were as shocked as anyone after they had been told that such screening would take place. Surely that should be a lesson learned from the severe acute respiratory syndrome virus. Have you touched on that in your COBRA meetings to see whether screening will be made available for people returning from Mexico? If so, how soon will that screening be put in place at points of entry in the UK?

Un pwynt a ddaeth i’m meddwl wrth imi ddod i lawr i’r Siambr y prynhawn yma oedd trafferthion pobl sy’n cyrraedd yma ar ôl teithio mewn awyren o wledydd tramor. Sylweddolaf nad yw maes awyr Heathrow dan awdurdodaeth y sefydliad hwn, ond mae’n fan mynediad i lawer, fel meysydd awyr eraill yn y DU. Ni wn a allwch hedfan yn uniongyrchol i Fecsico o faes awyr Caerdydd. Fodd bynnag, pan adawodd teithwyr Fecsico, dywedwyd wrthynt y caent eu sgrinio wrth ddod i mewn i’r Deyrnas Unedig, ond ni fu sgrinio ar ôl iddynt gyrraedd. Yr oeddent wedi dychryn cymaint â neb ar ôl dweud wrthynt y byddai sgrinio o’r fath yn digwydd. Mae’n sicr y dylid bod wedi dysgu’r wers honno ar ôl feirws y syndrom anadlu acíwt difrifol. A ydych wedi ymdrin â hynny yng nghyfarfodydd COBRA i weld a fydd sgrinio ar gael i bobl sy’n dychwelyd o Fecsico? Os ydych, pa mor fuan y cynigir sgrinio o’r fath mewn mannau mynediad i’r DU?

The flow of information is of critical importance. However, clear and concise information is what the public and policy makers require. If someone does fall ill, the last thing to recommend is that they take the usual trip to the GP practice, because they would be at risk of spreading the virus. They should call NHS Direct, and if the situation develops, a chain of command should be established whereby flu buddies could work with communities to deliver the required medication, so that people can isolate themselves and prevent the germ from spreading.

Mae llif gwybodaeth yn eithriadol o bwysig. Fodd bynnag, gwybodaeth glir a chryno yw’r hyn y mae’r cyhoedd a llunwyr polisïau yn gofyn amdano. Os bydd rhywun yn sâl, y peth olaf i’w argymell yw iddi fynd yn ôl yr arfer i’w meddygfa leol, oherwydd byddai mewn perygl o ledaenu’r firws. Dylai ffonio Galw Iechyd Cymru, ac os bydd y sefyllfa’n datblygu, dylid sefydlu cadwyn rheoli a fyddai’n galluogi cyfeillion ffliw i weithio gyda chymunedau i ddosbarthu’r feddyginiaeth angenrheidiol, er mwyn i bobl allu ynysu eu hunain a rhwystro’r germ rhag lledaenu.

Can you inform Plenary today about the capacity of NHS Direct to deal with an expected spike in the number of calls? Yesterday, the Chief Medical Officer for England referred to an increase of 1,500 calls, which is quite modest in the scheme of things. When we had a briefing yesterday, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales highlighted

A allwch ddweud wrth y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw am allu Galw Iechyd Cymru i ddelio â chynnydd sydyn disgwyliedig yn nifer y galwadau? Ddoe, cyfeiriodd Prif Swyddog Meddygol Lloegr at gynnydd o 1,500 o alwadau, sy’n ddigon isel o ystyried popeth. Pan gawsom ein briffio ddoe, dywedodd Prif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru bod dydd Llun,

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that Monday had, in fact, been a very quiet day for NHS Direct in Wales. However, as the situation unfolds, there will be increasing demands, and I would be grateful if you could give us an indication of NHS Direct’s level of resources and its ability to deal with the situation and play its full role.

mewn gwirionedd, yn ddiwrnod tawel iawn i Galw Iechyd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, wrth i’r sefyllfa ddatblygu bydd mwy a mwy o ofynion, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar petai modd ichi roi arwydd inni o lefel adnoddau Galw Iechyd Cymru a’i allu i ddelio â’r sefyllfa a gwneud ei ran yn llawn.

The stockpiling of antiviral drugs is a move to be welcomed by the Welsh Assembly Government, and we applaud its instinctive reaction some 12 months ago in claiming its share of the 33 million doses made available to the United Kingdom as a whole. However, in addition to drugs, we need the ancillary equipment that health workers and the wider society will require, such as masks, gloves, needles and the logical things that would provide an effective supply base if a pandemic was to hit our shores. It is something that we have been calling for, and I ask the Minister to confirm whether that supply base can be guaranteed and whether stocks have been identified to meet the requirement.

Dylid croesawu penderfyniad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i grynhoi stoc o gyffuriau gwrthfeirws, ac yr ydym yn cymeradwyo ei hymateb greddfol ryw 12 mis yn ôl wrth hawlio ei chyfran o’r 33 miliwn dogn a oedd ar gael i’r Deyrnas Unedig gyfan. Fodd bynnag, yn ogystal â chyffuriau mae arnom angen yr offer ategol y bydd eu hangen ar weithwyr iechyd ac ar gymdeithas yn gyffredinol, megis mygydau, menig, nodwyddau a’r pethau rhesymegol a fyddai’n rhoi sylfaen cyflenwi effeithiol petai pandemig yn cyrraedd ein glannau. Mae’n rhywbeth yr ydym wedi bod yn galw amdano, a gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog gadarnhau a oes modd gwarantu’r sylfaen cyflenwi hwnnw ac a oes cyflenwadau wedi eu nodi i ddiwallu’r gofyn.

The World Health Organization has identified that the risk in Wales and the United Kingdom stands at level four. If we were to move to levels five or six, I was hoping that the Minister could allude to what incumbency would be placed upon the UK Government and the Welsh Assembly Government to respond, in terms of the increased risk factor and the responsibility factor that the Government would face. If we were to move up to level five, I understand that a flu line would be a preferred option, so that people could get direct advice. Irrespective of this outbreak, the Government has already faced calls to establish such a line, and I would be grateful if the Minister could give us an idea of how we would develop our strategy in light of advice given by the World Health Organization.

Mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd wedi dweud bod lefel y risg yng Nghymru ac yn y Deyrnas Unedig ar lefel pedwar. Petaem yn symud i lefel pump neu chwech, yr oeddwn yn gobeithio y gallai’r Gweinidog gyfeirio at y cyfnod a roddid i Lywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ymateb, o ran y ffactor risg uwch a’r ffactor cyfrifoldeb y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn ei wynebu. Petaem yn symud i fyny i lefel pump, caf ar ddeall mai llinell ffliw fyddai’r dewis gorau, er mwyn i bobl allu cael cyngor yn uniongyrchol. Ar wahân i’r achos hwn, mae’r Llywodraeth eisoes wedi wynebu galwadau i sefydlu llinell o’r fath, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar petai’r Gweinidog yn gallu rhoi syniad inni sut y byddai modd inni ddatblygu ein strategaeth ac ystyried y cyngor a roddwyd gan Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd.

Going into the summer, the northern hemisphere is moving out of its indigenous flu season, but people in the southern hemisphere are moving into theirs. Many people will be travelling to the southern hemisphere, and I would like to know what sort of advice the Minister and her officials will be giving to the travel industry and the

A misoedd yr haf ar ein gwarthaf, mae hemisffer y gogledd yn ffarwelio â’r tymor ffliw cynhenid, ond mae pobl yn hemisffer y de ar ddechrau eu cyfnod hwy. Bydd nifer o bobl yn teithio i hemisffer y de, a hoffwn wybod pa fath o gyngor y bydd y Gweinidog a’i swyddogion yn ei roi i’r diwydiant teithio ac i’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru sy’n teithio pan

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travelling public in Wales when they undertake journeys during the summer period. Given the nature of our holidays, people tend to spend a considerable time out of the country during the summer, and it is important that people are up-to-date with advice.

fyddant yn teithio dros yr haf. O gofio natur ein gwyliau, bydd pobl yn tueddu i dreulio llawer o amser y tu allan i’r wlad yn ystod yr haf, ac mae’n bwysig i bobl gael y cyngor diweddaraf.

We must also understand exactly what we are facing. From our briefing yesterday, I understand that the next 10 to 12 days will be crucial. That will give us a true indication of where we are with this outbreak. However, because of the flu cycle, and the fact that the northern hemisphere is moving out of that cycle, we could well see a second spike in the autumn. It is important that we understand the situation. Are you in a position, Minister, to give us an indication of key dates that we should be looking at, so that we know where we are going with this outbreak?

Rhaid inni hefyd ddeall yn union beth sy’n ein hwynebu. O’n briffio ddoe, caf ar ddeall y bydd y 10 i’r 12 diwrnod nesaf yn hollbwysig. Bydd hynny’n rhoi gwir arwydd inni o’r sefyllfa gyda’r achosion hyn. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd y cylch ffliw, a’r ffaith fod hemisffer y gogledd yn symud allan o’r cylch hwnnw, gallem weld ail gynnydd sydyn yn yr hydref. Mae’n bwysig inni ddeall y sefyllfa. A ydych mewn sefyllfa, Weinidog, i roi arwydd inni o ddyddiadau allweddol y dylem fod yn edrych arnynt, er mwyn inni wybod ble yr ydym yn mynd gyda’r achosion hyn?

Finally, at the end of your statement, you highlighted self-help. The Government and public services can provide a certain amount of help and assistance, but it is crucial and incumbent upon everyone to address this situation in a grown-up and rational manner, and to meet their own responsibilities. In a month or two, I hope that we will look back on this incident and ask, ‘What was that all about?’. Sadly, the indications on the news today are that it is increasing its hold and that it is spreading. Although the numbers are miniscule in world terms, the mortality rate in Mexico is considerable and sadly, today, we heard about a child in Texas who seems to have died of it. We must implore people to take action on their own account, as well as working with the public health authorities.

Yn olaf, ar ddiwedd eich datganiad yr oeddech yn tynnu sylw at hunan-gymorth. Gall y Llywodraeth a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ddarparu rhywfaint o help a chymorth, ond mae’n hanfodol ac yn ddyletswydd ar bawb i roi sylw i’r sefyllfa hon mewn ffordd aeddfed a rhesymol, a chyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau eu hunain. Ymhen mis neu ddau gobeithio y byddwn yn edrych yn ôl ar y digwyddiad hwn ac yn gofyn, ‘Beth oedd hynny i gyd?’. Yn anffodus, mae’r arwyddion ar y newyddion heddiw yn awgrymu ei fod yn cryfhau ei afael ac yn lledaenu. Er bod y niferoedd byd-eang yn fach iawn, mae’r gyfradd marwolaethau ym Mecsico yn sylweddol, ac yn anffodus heddiw clywsom am blentyn yn Texas sydd wedi marw o’r ffliw i bob golwg. Rhaid inni bwyso ar bobl i weithredu drostynt eu hunain, yn ogystal â gweithio gyda’r awdurdodau iechyd cyhoeddus.

3.20 p.m.

I wish you well in your endeavours, Minister. You will certainly have our support on this side of the Chamber, based on the information that we have been provided with to date. We wish you well in your endeavours.

Yr wyf yn dymuno’n dda i chi yn eich ymdrechion, Weinidog. Byddwn ni ar yr ochr hon o’r Siambr yn sicr yn eich cefnogi, ar sail yr wybodaeth yr ydym wedi’i chael hyd yn hyn. Yr ydym yn dymuno’n dda i chi yn eich ymdrechion.

Edwina Hart: Thank you for your Edwina Hart: Diolch ichi am eich cyfraniad

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contribution today, Andrew. It is important that we recognise that this is a national issue that is well above politics. It is about the health of the nation and it is important that we manage this issue well and as collectively as possible. All the advice that we take comes from the World Health Organization. It is the scientists and the medics who are providing this advice and that is the basis on which we will take matters forward. All information that Ministers have is against that particular background.

heddiw, Andrew. Mae’n bwysig inni gydnabod bod hwn yn fater cenedlaethol sy’n fwy na gwleidyddiaeth. Mae’n ymwneud ag iechyd y genedl ac mae’n bwysig inni reoli’r mater hwn yn dda ac ar y cyd gymaint ag y bo modd. Daw’r holl gyngor a gawn oddi wrth Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd. Y gwyddonwyr a’r meddygon sy’n darparu’r cyngor hwn sy’n sylfaen inni i fynd â phethau yn eu blaen. Hynny yw cefndir yr holl wybodaeth sydd gan Weinidogion.

I think that you made some important points about information being crucial. That must include information to the public, how the press deals with the information, and how we ensure that a common message is given out across the United Kingdom, and western Europe as well. There are cases across western Europe and I think that there will have to be a consistent message.

Credaf ichi wneud rhai pwyntiau pwysig ynghylch hanfod gwybodaeth. Rhaid i hynny gynnwys gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd, sut y mae’r wasg yn delio â’r wybodaeth, a sut yr ydym yn sicrhau cyfleu neges o synnwyr cyffredin ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, a gorllewin Ewrop hefyd. Mae yna achosion ar draws gorllewin Ewrop, a chredaf y bydd yn rhaid cael neges gyson.

The steps that we have taken so far, in terms of providing information, are important. As I have indicated, we will be producing a leaflet that will go out to all households—the leaflet will be bilingual in Wales. Information will also be available at ports and airports, which will be crucial as things go along. This point also links in with your point on self help; there is only so much that we can do, but we can give information to citizens and the best advice in terms of their health, which I think is crucial.

Mae’r camau yr ydym wedi’u cymryd hyd yn hyn, o ran darparu gwybodaeth, yn bwysig. Fel yr wyf wedi’i ddweud, byddwn yn cynhyrchu taflen a ddosberthir i bob aelwyd—bydd y daflen yn ddwyieithog yng Nghymru. Bydd gwybodaeth ar gael hefyd mewn porthladdoedd a meysydd awyr, a fydd yn hollbwysig wrth i bethau symud ymlaen. Mae’r pwynt hwn hefyd yn cysylltu â’ch pwynt ynghylch hunan-gymorth; dim ond hyn a hyn y gallwn ni ei wneud, ond gallwn roi gwybodaeth i ddinasyddion a’r cyngor gorau o ran eu hiechyd, sy’n hanfodol yn fy marn i.

On some of the practical issues that we have been dealing with in terms of communications, you made the point about NHS Direct. We have a national number for NHS Direct for England and Wales; it is a common number and then the Welsh line splits off. We have already had discussions with NHS Direct in Wales about what would happen if this was scaled up at all. Obviously, different protocols would then come into play. Discussions are already taking place on what we may need to do more immediately and the resourcing implications of that. Officials and I were party to those discussions yesterday. Those matters are well in hand, because capacity could well be an issue in the future, if things

O ystyried rhai o’r materion ymarferol yr ydym wedi bod yn delio â hwy o ran cyfathrebu, gwnaethoch y pwynt am Galw Iechyd Cymru. Mae gennym rif cenedlaethol ar gyfer NHS Direct yn Lloegr a Galw Iechyd Cymru yng Nghymru; yr un yw’r rhif ac wedyn bydd llinell Cymru yn ymrannu oddi wrth linell Lloegr. Yr ydym eisoes wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Galw Iechyd Cymru ynghylch beth fyddai’n digwydd petai hyn yn cynyddu o gwbl. Yn amlwg, byddai protocolau gwahanol yn dod i rym wedyn. Mae trafodaethau eisoes yn cael eu cynnal ar yr hyn y gallai fod arnom angen ei wneud ar fwy o frys a goblygiadau adnoddau hynny. Yr oedd swyddogion a minnau yn rhan o’r trafodaethau hynny ddoe. Mae’r materion

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developed. hynny’n cael sylw, oherwydd gallai capasiti fod yn fater yn y dyfodol, petai pethau’n datblygu.

On drugs, I am assured by the Chief Medical Officer for Wales that we are fine on the antivirals and antibiotics and, of course, we have the necessary face masks. I make the point that these are face masks for medical staff and possibly other public service workers, which are not the things that you see on our television screens—they are really quite different. It is important to ensure that we have the necessary stock supplies of those, so that NHS staff have them and can work with individuals. It was fortunate, in many ways, that we had the training exercise last week, which enabled us to look at our plans and at what we need to do to improve those plans. Of course, the fact that we had that exercise last week and learned lessons learnt from it has proven to be very opportune. This has taught us that we have good plans in place, because, this week, the NHS went into plan mode due to the possibility of a pandemic. The NHS knew exactly what to do in every aspect of life and how it would be run. I think that it is important for the public to be assured about those issues.

O ran cyffuriau, caf fy sicrhau gan Brif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru ein bod yn iawn o ran meddyginiaethau gwrthfeirws a gwrthfiotigau, ac, wrth gwrs, mae gennym y mygydau wyneb angenrheidiol. Yr wyf yn gwneud y pwynt mai mygydau wyneb ar gyfer staff meddygol a gweithwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus eraill o bosibl yw’r rhain, nid y pethau a welwch ar sgriniau teledu—maent yn hollol wahanol. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod gennym gyflenwad angenrheidiol o’r rheiny, er mwyn i staff y GIG allu eu cael a gallu gweithio gydag unigolion. Yr oedd yn ffodus, mewn llawer ffordd, ein bod wedi cael yr ymarfer hyfforddi yr wythnos diwethaf, a oedd yn ein galluogi i edrych ar ein cynlluniau ac ar yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud i wella’r cynlluniau hynny. Wrth gwrs, mae’r ffaith inni gynnal yr ymarfer hwnnw yr wythnos diwethaf ac wedi dysgu gwersi yn ei sgil wedi bod yn amserol iawn. Mae hyn wedi dangos inni fod gennym gynlluniau da ar waith, oherwydd yr wythnos hon symudodd y GIG i’r modd cynllunio oherwydd posibilrwydd pandemig. Yr oedd y GIG yn gwybod yn union beth i’w wneud ym mhob agwedd ar fywyd a sut y byddai’n cael ei redeg. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig sicrhau’r cyhoedd am y materion hynny.

There are obviously issues that people are concerned about, such as travel. As far as I am aware, information for passengers is now available at points of entry into the UK. Passengers who are displaying symptoms when presenting themselves at check-in are being dealt with on arrival. There is obviously increased surveillance. In our area, there is already a presence in Cardiff and we are looking at what arrangements can be put in place there, because we have flights arriving from Schiphol, which is an international hub. There are issues around that. I can give you assurances that all those mechanisms are being put in place.

Yn amlwg, mae yna faterion sy’n pryderu pobl, megis teithio. Hyd y gwn i, mae gwybodaeth i deithwyr yn awr ar gael mewn mannau mynediad i’r DU. Caiff teithwyr sydd â symptomau wrth iddynt gofrestru ar gyfer eu taith eu trin ar ôl cyrraedd. Yn amlwg mae mwy o oruchwyliaeth. Yn ein hardal ni, mae yna bresenoldeb yng Nghaerdydd eisoes, ac yr ydym yn edrych ar y trefniadau y gellir eu rhoi ar waith yno, oherwydd mae gennym awyrennau’n cyrraedd o Schiphol, sy’n ganolbwynt rhyngwladol. Mae yna broblemau’n gysylltiedig â hynny. Gallaf eich sicrhau bod yr holl fecanweithiau hynny’n cael eu rhoi ar waith.

However, we are not sure what the end game will be and it is still quite unclear where all this is going, even for the World Health

Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn siŵr beth fydd canlyniad hyn, ac nid ydym yn glir ble fydd hyn i gyd yn arwain, hyd yn oed ar gyfer

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Organization. Scientists are keeping an eye on it. If this is to become a pandemic, there are issues about production. Would we be able to produce something that could be used as a vaccine, bearing in mind how long that would take? There are large timescales involved in all of this. At the moment, I think that I can say that, in Welsh terms, we are working well. You also need to know that we are working well across the four home nations—that is the important thing. I have been having regular meetings, every day, with Alan Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon and the Irish Minister. We have discussed what is happening in our own countries, any lessons to be learnt, and, of course, we have been sharing information and developing common lines. It would be my intention, with your agreement, Presiding Officer, to regularly update the Assembly on this basis. I will maintain the relationship between the CMO, the party spokespeople and me and continue to provide any more detailed information that might be required.

Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd. Mae gwyddonwyr yn cadw llygad arno. Os bydd hwn yn bandemig, bydd problemau’n ymwneud â chynhyrchu. A fyddem yn gallu cynhyrchu rhywbeth y byddai modd ei ddefnyddio fel brechlyn, o gofio mor hir y byddai hynny’n ei gymryd? Mae amserlenni hir ynghlwm wrth hyn oll. Ar hyn o bryd, credaf y gallaf ddweud, o ran Cymru, ein bod yn gweithio’n dda. Mae angen hefyd ichi wybod ein bod yn gweithio’n dda ar draws y pedair wlad—mae hynny’n bwysig. Yr wyf wedi cael cyfarfodydd rheolaidd, bob dydd, gydag Alan Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon a Gweinidog Iwerddon. Yr ydym wedi trafod yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn ein gwledydd ein hunain, unrhyw wersi sydd i’w dysgu, ac wrth gwrs yr ydym wedi bod yn rhannu gwybodaeth a datblygu llinellau cyffredin. Fy mwriad i, petaech yn cytuno, Lywydd, fyddai rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Cynulliad ar y sail hon yn rheolaidd. Byddaf yn cynnal y berthynas rhwng y prif swyddog meddygol, llefarwyr y pleidiau a minnau, ac yn parhau i ddarparu unrhyw wybodaeth fanwl ychwanegol a allai fod yn angenrheidiol.

Helen Mary Jones: I preface my questions to the Minister by congratulating all of those in the public services in Wales who, not just over the last weeks but over a period of many years, have prepared us as a nation to face this kind of situation. I recall being involved in a similar national exercise when Brian Gibbons was Minister. The exercise to which the Minister referred is not a one-off; it is part of a regular process, and we should all be grateful to the public servants involved. I am sure that the Minister would agree with me on that.

Helen Mary Jones: Cyn imi ofyn fy nghwestiynau i’r Gweinidog yr wyf yn llongyfarch pawb yng ngwasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru sydd, nid yn unig dros yr wythnosau diwethaf, ond ers nifer o flynyddoedd, wedi ein paratoi fel cenedl i wynebu’r math hwn o sefyllfa. Cofiaf fod yn rhan o ymarfer cenedlaethol tebyg pan oedd Brian Gibbons yn Weinidog dros Iechyd. Nid ymarfer unwaith ac am byth yw’r ymarfer y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog ato; mae’n rhan o broses reolaidd, a dylem i gyd fod yn ddiolchgar i’r gweision cyhoeddus a oedd ynghlwm wrtho. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno â mi ar hynny.

I congratulate the Minister and the One Wales Government on having the foresight to invest £59 million of capital funding in anti-viral treatments, which means that, should the worst come to the worst, we will have sufficient treatment here, as I understand it—and perhaps the Minister can reiterate that—for 50 per cent of our population. I recall some doubts being raised at the time as to whether this was an appropriate use of capital moneys, but the Minister’s and the One Wales Government’s decision has been

Yr wyf yn llongyfarch y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un am fod yn ddigon craff i fuddsoddi £59 miliwn o gyllid cyfalaf mewn triniaethau gwrthfeirws, sy’n golygu, petai’r gwaethaf yn digwydd, y bydd gennym ddigon o driniaeth yma, fel y deallaf—ac efallai y gall y Gweinidog ailadrodd hynny—ar gyfer 50 y cant o’n poblogaeth. Cofiaf rai pryderon yn cael eu codi ar y pryd ynghylch a oedd hon yn ffordd briodol i ddefnyddio arian cyfalaf, ond mae hyn yn cyfiawnhau penderfyniad y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth

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vindicated, and I am grateful to them. Cymru’n Un, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddynt.

Minister, will you say a little more about co-operation with the other Ministers, particularly with the Government at Westminster? We all know that it is not always as easy as it might be for our Ministers to get their voices heard at times like these, and I seek your reassurance that, in co-operation, particularly with Ministers and officials at Westminster and Whitehall, you will be able to ensure that any response that needs to be made at a UK level will be flexible enough and will be able to meet our needs in Wales. I am particularly pleased, for example, that the written information will be able to go out bilingually.

Weinidog, a ddywedwch fwy am gydweithredu â’r Gweinidogion eraill, yn enwedig â’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan? Gwyddom i gyd nad yw bob amser mor hawdd ag y gallai fod i’n Gweinidogion sicrhau bod eu lleisiau’n cael eu clywed yn ystod cyfnodau fel hyn. Gofynnaf ichi fy sicrhau, drwy gydweithredu, yn enwedig â Gweinidogion a swyddogion yn San Steffan ac yn Whitehall, y byddwch yn gallu sicrhau bod unrhyw ymateb y bydd angen ei wneud ar lefel y DU yn ddigon hyblyg i allu diwallu ein hanghenion ni yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch, er enghraifft, y bydd modd darparu’r wybodaeth ysgrifenedig yn ddwyieithog.

How confident are you that our primary care sector has the capacity to respond? Questions have been raised with me. Should this happen, we will ask people to stay at home and wait to be provided with the medication there. Many people in our communities have got out of the habit of having GP visits at home, and we need to ensure that people are clear that when they make contact—whether it be by telephone or through the websites—a health professional or whoever is appropriate will be able to come out to them with the appropriate treatment in a timely manner.

Pa mor ffyddiog ydych chi fod gan ein sector gofal sylfaenol y gallu i ymateb? Mae cwestiynau wedi eu codi gyda mi. Os digwydd hyn, byddwn yn gofyn i bobl aros gartref ac aros am y feddyginiaeth yna? Mae nifer o bobl yn ein cymunedau wedi hen anghofio’r arfer o weld meddyg teulu’n ymweld â chartrefi, ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod pobl yn glir pan fyddant yn cysylltu—boed dros y ffôn ynteu drwy’r gwefannau—y bydd gweithiwr proffesiynol neu bwy bynnag sy’n briodol yn gallu dod atynt gyda’r driniaeth briodol mewn modd amserol.

You mentioned the leaflets and the advertising campaign, and I welcome those, because the more information that the public in Wales has about this situation, the better. However, I have some concerns that the advertisements and the leaflets may not necessarily reach anyone. To what extent are we able to use new media, which is the chosen form of communication for many younger citizens and young families? I understand from our meeting with the CMO that information will be available and that it will be easily accessible through the web. Would you consider using local newspapers and perhaps specific stories in those newspapers to ensure that people know what the situation is and that they are kept updated? I have something of a concern about this; we get so many leaflets through our letterboxes these days, that people do not always read them, but it is certainly my

Soniech am y taflenni a’r ymgyrch hysbysebu, ac yr wyf yn croesawu’r rheiny, oherwydd gorau oll po fwyaf o wybodaeth sydd gan y cyhoedd yng Nghymru am y sefyllfa hon. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf rai pryderon na fydd yr hysbysebion a’r taflenni efallai o reidrwydd yn cyrraedd neb. I ba raddau y gallwn ni ddefnyddio cyfryngau newydd, sef y brif ffordd o gyfathrebu ar gyfer nifer o ddinasyddion iau a theuluoedd ifanc? Caf ar ddeall o’n cyfarfod gyda’r Prif Swyddog Meddygol y bydd gwybodaeth ar gael ac y bydd ar gael yn hwylus ar y we. A fyddech yn ystyried defnyddio papurau newydd lleol ac efallai hanesion penodol yn y papurau newydd hynny i sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa, a’u bod yn cael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf? Yr wyf braidd yn bryderus ynghylch hyn; yr ydym yn cael cynifer o daflenni drwy ein drysau y dyddiau hyn fel nad yw pobl bob amser yn eu darllen.

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experience that people trust local papers, such as our own Llanelli Star. Would you consider looking at a communication plan that involves using our local press?

Ond o’m profiad i yn sicr mae pobl yn ymddiried mewn papurau newydd lleol, megis y Llanelli Star yn ein hardal ni. A fyddech yn ystyried edrych ar gynllun cyfathrebu sy’n cynnwys defnyddio ein gwasg leol?

Would you agree that, while this is a potentially serious situation, it is important that we keep calm and that we avoid any sense of panic? In the past, in other countries, as much damage has been caused by the panic around issues like this as by the actual illness. Would you also agree that we, as Assembly Members, and other local elected representatives, have a role to play in reassuring the public and in ensuring that the information about this situation is kept accurate and pertinent?

A fyddech yn cytuno, er y gall hon fod yn sefyllfa ddifrifol, ei bod yn bwysig inni beidio â gwylltio nac achosi panig? Yn y gorffennol, mewn gwledydd eraill mae’r panig yn gysylltiedig â materion fel hyn wedi achosi cymaint o ddifrod â’r salwch ei hun. A fyddech hefyd yn cytuno bod gennym ni, fel Aelodau Cynulliad, a chynrychiolwyr etholedig lleol eraill ran i’w chwarae wrth sicrhau’r cyhoedd a sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth am y sefyllfa hon yn gywir ac yn berthnasol?

I thank the Minister for the regular briefings that she has promised to provide and for the information that she has already provided to all of the other party spokespeople. As the Minister has rightly said, this is certainly not a time for any party-political issues; this is a serious national situation to which, I am pleased to see, the Assembly is responding with one voice.

Yr wyf yn diolch i’r Gweinidog am yr addewid i’n briffio’n rheolaidd ac am yr wybodaeth y mae eisoes wedi’i darparu i lefarwyr y pleidiau eraill i gyd. Fel y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddweud yn gywir, nid dyma’r amser am unrhyw faterion pleidiol wleidyddol; mae hon yn sefyllfa genedlaethol ddifrifol, ac yr wyf yn falch gweld bod y Cynulliad yn ymateb ag un llais.

Edwina Hart: I agree that excellent work has been done, and I can assure you that officials have spent long hours in the bunker, dealing with these issues since the alert.

Edwina Hart: Yr wyf yn cytuno bod gwaith ardderchog wedi ei wneud, a gallaf eich sicrhau bod swyddogion wedi treulio oriau hirfaith yn y byncer yn delio â’r materion hyn ers y rhybudd.

To confirm the anti-viral position, yes, we do have the necessary stockpiles available, and it is important to recognise that we took that move as a result of planning for what everybody tells us about the likelihood of an influenza pandemic.

I gadarnhau’r sefyllfa o ran meddyginiaeth gwrthfeirws, oes mae gennym y cyflenwadau angenrheidiol, ac mae’n bwysig cydnabod inni wneud hynny oherwydd cynllunio ar gyfer yr hyn y mae pawb yn ei ddweud wrthym am debygolrwydd pandemig ffliw.

3.30 p.m.

We have had excellent co-operation from the Department of Health, an example of which is the fact that I was able to secure agreement on producing a bilingual leaflet, so long as we can get the translation and everything done. We will not necessarily be able to do anything about television advertisements, as that may prove too problematic, but if the issue runs any longer, it is a matter that we could look at.

Yr ydym wedi cael cydweithrediad ardderchog gan yr Adran Iechyd, ac un enghraifft o hynny yw’r ffaith fy mod wedi llwyddo i sicrhau cytundeb ar gynhyrchu taflen ddwyieithog, cyn belled ag y gallwn ni wneud y cyfieithu a phob dim. Ni fyddwn o reidrwydd yn gallu gwneud dim ynglŷn â hysbysebion teledu, oherwydd gallai hynny beri gormod o broblemau. Ond os pery’r mater yn hwy, mae’n fater y gallem edrych

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arno.

We have enjoyed good relationships at ministerial level, and we have been kept fully briefed by the Department of Health and Alan Johnson. I think that you will find that the same answer is being given to questions in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. I hope that that augers well for better joint working in the future between devolved administrations and the centre, with good practice emerging from this episode.

Yr ydym wedi cael perthynas dda ar lefel Gweinidogion, a chawsom ein briffio’n llawn gan yr Adran Iechyd a chan Alan Johnson. Credaf y gwelwch fod yr un ateb yn cael ei roi i gwestiynau yng Nghynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon ac yn Senedd yr Alban. Gobeithio bod hynny’n argoeli’n dda am well cydweithio yn y dyfodol rhwng gweinyddiaethau datganoledig a’r canol, ac y bydd arfer da yn deillio o’r sefyllfa hon.

Primary care is the key sector for us, and it will be heavily involved in giving advice, whether that is to ring your GP or with regard to what action to take. We continue to look at this issue so that, if it escalates, we will know what to do. At the moment, we are comfortable with the arrangements that are in place, and we have further plans if greater numbers of people come into the system.

Gofal sylfaenol yw’r sector allweddol inni, a bydd iddo ran fawr wrth roi cyngor, boed yn gyngor i ffonio’ch meddyg teulu ynteu o safbwynt y camau i’w cymryd. Yr ydym yn parhau i edrych ar y mater hwn fel y byddwn, os bydd yn dwysáu, yn gwybod beth i’w wneud. Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn gyfforddus gyda’r trefniadau sydd wedi eu sefydlu, ac y mae gennym gynlluniau pellach os daw niferoedd cynyddol o bobl i mewn i’r system.

On the advertising campaign, we will have to use the new media and decide what to put on our websites and how we deal with the issue. It is important that I allow our communications team to look at innovative ways of communicating with people on the particular issues. You made a good point about local newspapers as a means of delivering messages. I might discuss that with the team later, to see whether it is possible for the chief medical officer to submit an article to local newspapers to explain the issues. I think that that would be well received, particularly by local communities.

O safbwynt yr ymgyrch hysbysebu, bydd yn rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r cyfryngau newydd a phenderfynu beth i’w osod ar ein gwefannau a sut i ddelio â’r mater. Mae’n bwysig imi ganiatáu i’n tîm cyfathrebu edrych ar ffyrdd arloesol o gyfathrebu â phobl ar faterion penodol. Gwnaethoch bwynt da ynglŷn â phapurau newydd fel modd i gyfleu negeseuon. Hwyrach y trafodaf hynny gyda’r tîm yn ddiweddarach, i weld a yw’n bosibl i’r prif swyddog meddygol gyflwyno erthygl i bapurau newydd lleol i esbonio’r materion. Credaf y byddai hynny’n cael ei groesawu, yn enwedig ymysg cymunedau lleol.

You are right about elected Members having a role to play, and I think that it would be helpful, in addition to the regular updates in Plenary and anything that I do for party spokespeople, if I were to draft the occasional letter or memo to Members on the issues. That might be helpful for you to utilise, because it is important that you keep people calm. If people switch on the news—I will not say which channel or at what time—and it is dominated by 20 minutes of this story, they will feel that this is all that is going on in the world while it is the focus of attention. That can worry people. It is important that

Yr ydych yn gywir fan Aelodau etholedig rôl i’w chwarae, a chredaf y byddai’n ddefnyddiol petawn, yn ychwanegol at y diweddariadau rheolaidd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ac unrhyw beth a wnaf dros lefarwyr y pleidiau, yn drafftio llythyr neu femo yn achlysurol at Aelodau am y materion. Gallai hynny fod yn ddefnyddiol ichi eu defnyddio, oherwydd mae’n bwysig ichi atal pobl rhag cynhyrfu. Os bydd pobl yn rhoi’r newyddion ymlaen—ni ddywedaf ar ba sianel na phryd—a’r rheiny’n llawn am 20 munud o’r stori hon, byddant yn teimlo mai dyma’r cyfan sy’n digwydd yn y byd tra bydd hwn yn

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people keep calm and recognise that plans exist to deal with the issue.

ganolbwynt i’r sylw. Gall hynny achosi pryder i bobl. Mae’n bwysig i bobl beidio â chynhyrfu ac i sylweddoli bod cynlluniau ar waith i ddelio â’r mater.

We also have to recognise other salient points when we talk about flu. People die of the flu anyway. Deaths occur as a result of seasonal flu. We have to recognise the realities of health. Those cases that have appeared in western Europe have been mild so far, and I can assure you that the medics and the others are on top of this issue by making sure that we are as safe as we can be.

Rhaid inni gydnabod pwyntiau perthnasol eraill wrth siarad am ffliw. Bydd pobl yn marw o’r ffliw beth bynnag. Bydd marwolaethau’n digwydd oherwydd ffliw tymhorol. Rhaid inni gydnabod gwirioneddau iechyd. Mae’r achosion hynny sydd wedi ymddangos yng ngorllewin Ewrop wedi bod yn rhai ysgafn cyn belled, a gallaf eich sicrhau bod y meddygon a’r lleill ar war y mater hwn drwy sicrhau ein bod mor ddiogel ag y gallwn fod.

Peter Black: Thank you for the statement, Minister, and for the briefing that was provided to opposition spokespeople. Also, thank you for your offer to keep Members up to date with a regular briefing. That will be useful and it will help us to deal with enquiries to our offices about this particular—I hesitate to use ‘epidemic’ or ‘pandemic’—outbreak.

Peter Black: Diolch ichi am eich datganiad, Weinidog, ac am y brîff a ddarparwyd i lefarwyr yr wrthblaid. Diolch ichi hefyd am eich cynnig i roi gwybod i’r Aelodau am y diweddaraf gyda brîff rheolaidd. Bydd hynny’n ddefnyddiol, a bydd yn ein helpu i ddelio ag ymholiadau i’n swyddfeydd am—a phetrusaf rhag defnyddio ‘epidemig’ na ‘phandemig’—yr achos penodol hwn.

There are few questions left to ask after 25 minutes on this issue, so I will ask you briefly about the planning process. In the event of this outbreak turning into a pandemic, or at least threatening to become one, what civil contingencies are being put in place with regard to transport, food supply, energy supplies and so on? What arrangements are you making with primary care providers to deal with enquiries and requests for them to visit possible victims of this flu? I understand that the advice is for them to stay at home and not go to their GP’s surgery. That may involve a visit from a GP, which is not as common as it used to be as a form of support. Also, there is the issue of space in hospitals, if that becomes available. Can you give us an outline of how that planning is going?

Mae ychydig gwestiynau ar ôl i’w gofyn ar ôl 25 munud ar y mater hwn, felly, yr wyf am eich holi’n fyr am y broses gynllunio. Os digwydd i’r achos hwn droi’n bandemig, neu o leiaf fygwth troi’n bandemig, pa gynlluniau wrth gefn sy’n cael eu sefydlu o safbwynt trafnidiaeth, cyflenwi bwyd, cyflenwadau ynni, ac ati? Pa drefniadau yr ydych yn eu gwneud gyda darparwyr gofal sylfaenol i ddelio ag ymholiadau a cheisiadau iddynt ymweld â dioddefwyr posibl y ffliw hwn? Caf ar ddeall mai’r cyngor yw iddynt aros gartref a pheidio â mynd i’w meddygfa. Gallai hynny olygu ymweliad gan feddyg teulu, rhywbeth nad yw mor gyffredin ag a fu fel ffurf ar gefnogaeth. Hefyd, ceir yna broblem lle mewn ysbytai, os daw hwnnw ar gael. A allwch roi inni amlinelliad sut y mae’r cynllunio hwnnw’n mynd ymlaen?

Edwina Hart: I intended my statement to respond to the present situation and not to what may happen in the future. I can only assure you, Peter, as I have indicated, that I have a meeting with the Wales Resilience Forum tomorrow to discuss wider issues that what is currently happening and to seek the advice of experts across the piece. We have

Edwina Hart: Yr oeddwn wedi bwriadu i’m datganiad ymateb i’r sefyllfa bresennol, nid i’r hyn a allai ddigwydd yn y dyfodol. Ni allaf ond eich sicrhau, Peter, fel yr wyf wedi ei ddweud, y byddaf yn cyfarfod â Fforwm Cymru Gydnerth yfory i drafod materion ehangach ynghylch yr hyn sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, ac i ofyn am gyngor arbenigwyr

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plans in place to deal with all the issues that you mentioned, and they would be enacted immediately should the level of the threat increase to a pandemic.

ar draws y mater. Mae gennym gynlluniau wedi’u sefydlu i ddelio â’r holl faterion y soniech amdanynt, a byddent yn cael eu rhoi ar waith ar unwaith petai lefel y bygythiad yn troi’n bandemig.

The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister, especially for your willingness to indicate that you will keep the Assembly informed.

Y Llywydd: Diolch ichi, Weinidog, yn enwedig am eich parodrwydd i ddweud y byddwch yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Cynulliad.

Datganiad: yr Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf yn Dilyn y Pumed Uwchgynhadledd Economaidd

Statement: Update Following the Fifth Economic Summit

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyfle i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Aelodau am bumed uwchgynhadledd economaidd Cymru, a gynhaliwyd yn gynharach y mis hwn, ar 7 Ebrill 2009. Mae’r papur diweddaru llawn a gyflwynwyd gerbron yr uwchgynhadledd wedi cael ei ddarparu i’r Aelodau.

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I am pleased to have the opportunity to update members on the fifth Wales economic summit held earlier this month, on 7 April 2009. The full update paper presented to the summit has been provided to Members.

Mae’r data sydd wedi eu cyhoeddi’n ddiweddar yn dangos yr her sy’n ein hwynebu. Cwympodd cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth 1.6 y cant yn ystod pedwerydd chwarter 2008, ac mae’r data diweddaraf am y farchnad lafur yn dangos bod y dirywiad sydyn a welwyd yn y farchnad yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf wedi parhau, er bod y sefyllfa gyffredinol yn parhau’n rhesymol o’i chymharu â’r hyn a welwyd yn y gorffennol.

Recently published data show the challenge facing us. Gross domestic product fell by 1.6 per cent during the fourth quarter of 2008, and the latest labour market data indicate that the sharp deterioration in the market over the past few months has continued, although the overall position still remains reasonable compared with the past.

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Mae hyn yn pwysleisio’r angen i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru gynnig arweiniad, ac i weithio gyda’n rhanddeiliaid i wneud yn siŵr ei bod mewn sefyllfa dda i fanteisio ar welliant yn yr economi. Ni ellir cyhuddo Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o fod yn hunanfodlon. Dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf y cyhoeddwyd bod cronfa JEREMIE yn cael ei lansio. Mae JEREMIE yn rhaglen arloesol, a dyma’r gronfa gyntaf o’i bath yn Ewrop. Bydd y gronfa newydd hon, sy’n werth £150 miliwn ac a gyflenwir gan Cyllid Cymru, yn ychwanegu at y gyfres o fesurau cymorth cyfredol ac yn helpu i gefnogi datblygiad parhaus y sector busnesau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru. Bydd hefyd yn mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r anawsterau sy’n wynebu cwmnïau o ran cael mynediad at gyllid.

This emphasises the need for the Welsh Assembly Government to provide leadership, and to work with its stakeholders to ensure that it is in a good position to take advantage of the economic upturn. The Assembly Government cannot be accused of being complacent. The launch of the JEREMIE fund was announced only last week. JEREMIE is an innovative programme, and the first fund of its kind in Europe. This new fund, which is worth £150 million and will be delivered by Finance Wales, will add to the series of current support measures and will help to support the continuous development of the small and medium-sized enterprise sector in Wales. It will also address some of the difficulties facing companies in getting access to funding.

Bydd JEREMIE yn caniatáu i Cyllid Cymru ddarparu lefel o gyllid uwch nag erioed i fusnesau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru, a bydd hefyd yn sicrhau lefel uwch o fuddsoddi ar y cyd â banciau’r stryd fawr. Bydd y gronfa newydd yn buddsoddi dros gyfnod o bum mlynedd, ac mae’n ymrwymiad hirdymor i gefnogi busnesau Cymru. Mae’r ffaith bod llawer o ranbarthau eraill yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol, ac yn wir o wledydd eraill yn Ewrop, wedi dod atom i ddysgu o’n profiad ac i elwa arno, yn dyst i’n dull arloesol.

JEREMIE will allow Finance Wales to provide an unprecedented level of funding to small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales, and it will also ensure a higher level of joint investment with the high street banks. The new fund will invest over a period of five years, and it is a long-term commitment to supporting Welsh businesses. The fact that many other regions of the United Kingdom and, indeed, other European countries, have come to us to learn and benefit from our experience, is testament to our innovative approach.

Gan droi’n ôl at yr uwchgynhadledd, yr oedd arweinwyr o bob rhan o’r Llywodraeth, busnesau ac undebau llafur yn bresennol, yn ogystal â chynrychiolwyr o feysydd addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. Yn yr uwchgynhadledd ddiwethaf, nodwyd y problemau mawr sy’n cael eu hachosi i fusnesau yng Nghymru oherwydd y gostyngiad yn y benthyciadau gan fanciau. Y drafodaeth honno sefydlodd y paramedrau ar gyfer trafodaethau manylach rhyngom ni a’r banciau. Daeth cynrychiolwyr o fanciau’r stryd fawr ynghyd yn yr uwchgynhadledd i lansio canllawiau i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint, a gynhyrchwyd ar y cyd â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Nod y canllawiau hyn, sef canllaw at gyrchu cyllid banc, yw rhoi cyngor ymarferol i fusnesau bach er mwyn iddynt allu llunio achosion busnes effeithiol a chadarn wrth wneud cais i’r banciau am fenthyciad.

Returning to the summit, leaders from all parts of Government, businesses and trade unions were present, together with representatives from further and higher education. At the last summit, the major problems being caused to business in Wales due to the reduction in loans from banks were highlighted. It was that discussion that established the parameters for more detailed discussion between ourselves and the banks. Representatives from the high street banks came together at the summit in order to launch a guide to small and medium-sized enterprises, produced jointly with the Assembly Government. The aim of this guidance, ‘A Guide to Accessing Bank Finance’, is to provide practical advice to small businesses to enable them to make effective and robust business cases when applying to the bank for a loan.

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Yn ogystal, bydd ein rheolwyr perthynas sydd wedi’u lleoli mewn swyddfeydd rhanbarthol ar hyd a lled Cymru yn defnyddio’r gwasanaeth Cymorth Hyblyg i Fusnesau ac yn cynghori’r mentrau ar y ffordd orau i lunio achosion busnes i’w cyflwyno i’r banciau. Cyhoeddi’r canllaw hwn yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf yw’r cam cyntaf mewn proses barhaus o drafodaethau rhwng Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r sector bancio, ac mae manylion y gwasanaeth cyngor a chymorth hwn yn cael eu datblygu ar hyn o bryd.

In addition, our relationship managers located in regional offices across Wales will be using the Flexible Support for Business service and providing advice to enterprises on the best way of producing business cases to present to the banks. Publishing this guidance during the next few weeks is the first step in a continuous process of discussions between the Assembly Government and the banking sector, and the details of this advice and support service is currently being developed.

Attendees of the summit were also informed of a number of new measures introduced as part of our continued drive to lead Wales out of recession. The summits have emphasised the need for a rapid two-way flow of up-to-the-minute information between all sectors. Since the last summit, our website pages and booklets for employers and employment practitioners have been supplemented by a new publication on support for people. Around 600 business people attended the series of ‘Weathering the Storm’ seminars, held across Wales in Llandudno, Aberystwyth, Newtown, Swansea and Cardiff, to help businesses get through the recession and emerge ready for the new opportunities of the upturn. These practical seminars brought together private sector as well as public sector organisations to present a truly comprehensive package of business support services, including information on UK-wide schemes as well as measures available only in Wales.

Dywedwyd wrth y cynrychiolwyr yn yr uwchgynhadledd hefyd am nifer o fesurau newydd a gyflwynwyd fel rhan o’n hymgyrch barhaus i arwain Cymru allan o ddirwasgiad. Mae’r uwchgynadleddau wedi pwysleisio’r angen am lif gwybodaeth gwbl ddiweddar, ddwyffordd a chyflym rhwng pob sector. Ers yr uwchgynhadledd ddiwethaf, fel atodiad i’n tudalennau gwe a’n llyfrynnau i gyflogwyr ac ymarferwyr cyflogaeth, rhoddwyd cyhoeddiad newydd ar gymorth i bobl. Yr oedd oddeutu 600 o bobl fusnes yn bresennol yn y seminarau ‘Dod Drwyddi’ a gynhaliwyd ledled Cymru yn Llandudno, Aberystwyth, y Drenewydd, Abertawe a Chaerdydd, i helpu busnesau i ddod drwy’r dirwasgiad ac i fod yn barod am gyfleoedd newydd pan ddaw cynnydd. Yr oedd y seminarau ymarferol hyn yn dwyn ynghyd sefydliadau’r sector preifat yn ogystal â sefydliadau’r sector cyhoeddus i gyflwyno pecyn gwasanaethau cymorth busnes gwirioneddol gynhwysfawr, gan gynnwys gwybodaeth am gynlluniau sydd ar waith ledled y DU, ynghyd â mesurau sydd ar gael yng Nghymru’n unig.

3.40 p.m.

We plan to bring forward £91 million of capital budgets from 2010-11 into 2009-10 in order to invest in labour-intensive projects across Wales. The capital funding relates to projects in the areas of health, and social services, affordable housing, education and the economy, transport and regeneration. That investment will provide an important fiscal stimulus to the Welsh economy and will safeguard jobs, particularly in the construction sector. We are determined to keep as many people as possible in their jobs through the recession, and we will use every

Bwriadwn ddwyn ymlaen £91 miliwn o gyllidebau cyfalaf o 2010-11 i 2009-10 i’w buddsoddi mewn prosiectau llafurddwys ledled Cymru. Mae’r arian cyfalaf yn ymwneud â phrosiectau ym meysydd iechyd, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, tai fforddiadwy, addysg a’r economi, trafnidiaeth ac adfywio. Bydd y buddsoddiad hwnnw’n hwb ariannol pwysig i economi Cymru ac yn diogelu swyddi, yn enwedig yn y sector adeiladu. Yr ydym yn benderfynol o gadw cynifer o bobl â phosibl yn eu swyddi drwy’r dirwasgiad, a byddwn yn defnyddio pob cyfle i wella

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opportunity to enhance the skills both of those in work and of people seeking work. The summit was pleased to hear that 32 applications for the £48 million ProAct initiative had been approved to date. ProAct has already helped around 2,000 people to stay in their jobs and to strengthen their skills, helping to secure their own future and that of their companies.

sgiliau’r rheiny sydd mewn gwaith a’r rheiny sy’n ceisio gwaith. Yr oedd yr uwchgynhadledd yn falch clywed bod 32 o geisiadau am y cynllun £48 miliwn ProAct wedi eu cymeradwyo hyd heddiw. Mae ProAct eisoes wedi helpu tua 2,000 o bobl i barhau yn eu swyddi ac i atgyfnerthu eu sgiliau, gan helpu sicrhau eu dyfodol eu hunain a dyfodol eu cwmnïau.

We also announced a major package of measures for unemployed people to gain new skills. They include plans to provide 3,500 jobseekers who have been out of work for at least six months with tailored training. Run in conjunction with the Department for Work and Pensions’s cash-back scheme, we will provide training support for employers if they hire jobseekers who have been unemployed for longer than six months. The established SkillBuild programme is to be extended to meet growing demand in the face of rising unemployment. SkillBuild provides pre-employment training for young people and adults, and it is estimated that up to an additional 4,000 people will benefit from this scheme during 2009. Extra support is to be made available to provide funding for a further 2,500 places for young people and adults in sixth forms and further education. Advice and guidance on skills and training is essential, particularly during the current financial situation. Given the rising demand for the services provided by Careers Wales, we will fund an additional 30 advisers, estimated to benefit over 17,000 people.

Cyhoeddwyd hefyd becyn pwysig o fesurau er mwyn i bobl ddi-waith ddysgu sgiliau newydd. Yn eu mysg mae cynlluniau i ddarparu hyfforddiant wedi’i deilwrio’n arbennig i 3,500 o geiswyr gwaith sydd wedi bod yn ddi-waith ers o leiaf chwe mis. Caiff ei redeg ar y cyd â chynllun arian-yn-ôl gan yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, a byddwn yn darparu cymorth hyfforddiant i gyflogwyr os cyflogant geiswyr gwaith sydd wedi bod yn ddi-waith ers dros chwe mis. Bydd y rhaglen sefydledig Adeiladu Sgiliau yn cael ei hymestyn i fodloni’r galw cynyddol yn wyneb diweithdra cynyddol. Mae Adeiladu Sgiliau yn darparu hyfforddiant cyn-cyflogaeth i bobl ifanc ac oedolion, ac amcangyfrifir y bydd hyd at 4,000 o bobl yn ychwanegol yn elwa o’r cynllun hwn yn ystod 2009. Caiff cymorth ychwanegol ei ryddhau i ddarparu nawdd ar gyfer 2,500 pellach o leoedd i bobl ifanc ac oedolion mewn dosbarthiadau chwech ac addysg bellach. Mae cyngor a chyfarwyddyd ar sgiliau a hyfforddiant yn hanfodol, yn enwedig yn y sefyllfa ariannol bresennol. O gofio’r galw cynyddol am y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan Gyrfa Cymru, byddwn yn ariannu 30 yn ychwanegol o gynghorwyr, ac amcangyfrifir y bydd hyn o fudd i dros 17,000 o bobl.

We are keen to see Welsh businesses win a greater share of the £4 billion-plus public sector procurement budget. The European Commission has advised that, during the current economic climate, accelerated procurement procedures can be used by the public sector, which would cut the overall length of the process from 87 to 30 days. This procedure can be used throughout 2009 and 2010 for all major public projects, and we are actively promoting the use of this procedure.

Yr ydym yn awyddus i weld busnesau Cymru’n ennill cyfran fwy o’r gyllideb gaffael o £4 biliwn a mwy gan y sector cyhoeddus. Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi dweud y gall y sector cyhoeddus, yn yr hinsawdd economaidd bresennol, ddefnyddio gweithdrefnau caffael carlam, a byddai hynny’n cwtogi’r broses gyfan o 87 diwrnod i 30 diwrnod. Gellir defnyddio’r weithdrefn hon gydol 2009 a 2010 ar gyfer pob prosiect cyhoeddus blaenllaw, ac yr ydym yn ymroi i hyrwyddo defnyddio’r weithdrefn hon.

Business representatives stressed the Pwysleisiodd y cynrychiolwyr busnes

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importance of cutting the burden of taxation as far as possible during the present difficulties. The meeting noted that further changes mean that around 100,000 businesses in Wales will now be able to opt to limit payment of business rate increases to only 2 per cent this year out of the 5 per cent increase scheduled, with the remaining 3 per cent payable over the next two years. The new rate relief plans are in addition to the £20 million relief for small businesses in Wales and temporary increases in rate relief on empty properties in 2009-10 that took effect earlier this month.

bwysigrwydd cwtogi’r baich treth cyn belled ag y mae’n bosibl yn ystod yr anawsterau presennol. Sylwodd y cyfarfod fod newidiadau pellach yn golygu y bydd tua 100,000 o fusnesau yng Nghymru yn awr yn gallu dewis cyfyngu taliadau ardrethi busnes i 2 y cant yn unig eleni o’r cynnydd o 5 y cant a fwriadwyd, a’r 3 y cant sy’n weddill yn daladwy dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Mae’r cynlluniau rhyddhad ardrethi newydd yn ychwanegiad at y rhyddhad o £20 miliwn i fusnesau bach yng Nghymru a’r cynnydd dros dro mewn rhyddhad ardrethi ar adeiladau gwag yn 2009-10 a ddaeth i rym yn gynharach y mis hwn.

The fifth summit confirmed the readiness of all involved in the Welsh economy to pull together in the face of global economic challenges, and to ensure we are ready for the upturn when it comes.

Cadarnhaodd y pumed uwchgynhadledd barodrwydd pawb sy’n gysylltiedig ag economi Cymru i gyd-dynnu yn wyneb heriau economaidd byd-eang, ac i sicrhau ein bod yn barod am y cynnydd pan ddaw.

David Melding: I thank the Deputy First Minister for keeping us informed on the progress of these summits. The economic situation is still looking extremely adverse, and we cannot yet be confident that we are at the nadir of this recession. Unfortunately, we can conclude, even if we do not know how long the recession will last—my estimate is that it will be nearer two years than one—that we will see a contraction of over 5 per cent of GDP, which will make this recession the worst since the late 1940s, worse than the 1980s and considerably worse than the early 1990s. The Deputy First Minister is right to emphasise what the Welsh Assembly Government, often in co-operation with the UK Government, has tried to do to mitigate the effect on jobs. Let us not beat about the bush, it is the increase in unemployment that is the most visible and miserable sign of an economic recession.

David Melding: Diolch i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog am roi gwybod yn gysion inni am y cynnydd gyda’r uwchgynadleddau hyn. Mae’r sefyllfa economaidd yn edrych yn eithriadol i anffafriol o hyd, ac ni allwn fod yn hyderus eto ein bod wedi cyrraedd man isaf y dirwasgiad hwn. Yn anffodus, gallwn ddod i’r casgliad, hyd yn oed os na wyddom am ba hyd y bydd y dirwasgiad yn parhau—fy amcan i yw y bydd yn nes i ddwy flynedd nag un—y bydd cwtogi o fwy na 5 y cant yn y CMC, a bydd hynny’n gwneud y dirwasgiad hwn y gwaethaf ers diwedd yr 1940au, yn waeth na’r 1980au ac yn waeth o lawer na dechrau’r 1990au. Mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn iawn i bwysleisio’r hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn aml mewn cydweithrediad â Llywodraeth y DU, wedi ceisio’i wneud i liniaru’r effaith ar swyddi. Gadewch inni beidio ag osgoi’r pwynt, y cynnydd mewn diweithdra yw’r arwydd amlycaf a mwyaf truenus mewn dirwasgiad economaidd.

What flexibility does the Deputy First Minister have, if he is going to increase programmes such as ProAct and ReAct, as well as the general skills training that he is trying to improve, because the Government is inevitably shifting its policy on skills support up the food chain? He is trying either to get people into new jobs very quickly, so that they are not unemployed for over six months

Pa hyblygrwydd sydd gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, os yw’n mynd i gynyddu rhaglenni megis ProAct a ReAct, yn ogystal â’r hyfforddiant sgiliau cyffredinol y mae’n ceisio’i wella, oherwydd mae’r Llywodraeth yn anochel yn symud ei pholisi ar gymorth sgiliau i fyny’r gadwyn fwyd? Mae’n ceisio naill ai cael pobl i mewn i swyddi newydd yn gyflym iawn, fel na fyddant yn ddi-waith am

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and losing skills or he is trying, through ProAct, to prevent lay-offs in the first place. This causes a bit of a squeeze on those low-skilled people who would otherwise perhaps be accessing basic training and then entering the jobs market on a lower-skills basis. If we are not careful, they could be faced with a future of very long-term unemployment. The Deputy First Minister may need to increase some of these budget lines. As we know, the overall envelope of funding to the Welsh Assembly Government is not going to increase. However, the economic burden and the demands that we now face are so critical that he will have to make a special plea to his cabinet colleagues for some virement so that we can meet these pressing demands and limit the scourge of unemployment as much as possible.

fwy na chwe mis ac yn colli sgiliau, ynteu mae’n ceisio sicrhau, drwy ProAct, na fydd pobl yn cael eu diswyddo yn y lle cyntaf. Mae hyn yn achosi ychydig bwysau ar y bobl hynny nad oes ganddynt lawer o sgiliau, ac a fyddai fel arall efallai yn dilyn hyfforddiant sylfaenol ac yna’n ymuno â’r farchnad swyddi fel gweithwyr heb lawer o sgiliau. Os na fyddwn yn ofalus, gallent wynebu cyfnod hir iawn o ddiweithdra yn y dyfodol. Efallai y bydd angen i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog gynyddu rhai o’r llinellau gwariant hyn. Fel y gwyddom, nid yw cwmpas cyffredinol y cyllid i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn mynd i gynyddu. Serch hynny, mae’r baich economaidd a’r gofynion sy’n ein hwynebu’n awr mor ddifrifol fel y bydd yn rhaid iddo wneud cais arbennig i’w gyd-Aelodau yn y cabinet am hawl i drosglwyddo rhywfaint o arian er mwyn inni allu ateb y gofynion dybryd hyn a lleihau effeithiau difäol diweithdra gymaint â phosibl.

I have a few queries. First, he says that the drag forward on capital expenditure into the financial year that has just begun from 2010-11 is now likely to be £91 million. His original intention announced last autumn—in fairness, it may have been announced by the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery—was that there would be a £123 million drag forward. We are £32 million down on that, which is way down. In the last few years, the Welsh Assembly Government has had an overhang on its capital expenditure of around £200 million year on year. I know that that money is not lost, but that does indicate that it is not being used with great expedition and within the timescales that the Government had originally hoped. We are disappointed to see a significant reduction in the amount of capital that you think that you will be spending upfront during a period when we will probably still be in recession. One hopes that we will be in the recovery phase by 2010-11, even if that recovery is slow.

Mae gennyf rai cwestiynau. Yn gyntaf, mae’n dweud bod y gwariant cyfalaf a gaiff ei ddwyn ymlaen o 2010-11 i’r flwyddyn ariannol sydd newydd ddechrau yn debygol o fod yn £91 miliwn erbyn hyn. Ei fwriad gwreiddiol, a gyhoeddwyd yr hydref diwethaf—a bod yn deg, efallai ei fod wedi ei gyhoeddi gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus—oedd dwyn £123 miliwn ymlaen. Mae’n sôn am £32 miliwn yn llai na hynny, sy’n llawer llai. Yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi bod â bargod o ryw £200 miliwn ar ei gwariant cyfalaf y naill flwyddyn ar ôl y llall. Gwn nad yw’r arian hwnnw wedi ei golli, ond mae hynny’n dangos nad yw’n cael ei ddefnyddio ar frys mawr ac o fewn yr amserlen yr oedd y Llywodraeth wedi gobeithio’i dilyn yn wreiddiol. Yr ydym yn siomedig fod gostyngiad sylweddol i’w weld yng nghyfanswm y cyfalaf credwch y byddwch yn ei wario ymlaen llaw yn ystod cyfnod pan fyddwn yn dal mewn dirwasgiad, mae’n debyg. Gobeithio y byddwn yn y cyfnod adfer erbyn 2010-11, hyd yn oed os bydd yr adferiad hwnnw’n araf.

Therefore, I would like to know why there has been a problem with the estimates of the drag forward. We have no knowledge at the moment of how much of that £91 million, if

Felly, hoffwn wybod pam y mae problem wedi bod gyda’r amcangyfrifon ar gyfer y swm a gaiff ei ddwyn ymlaen. Ni wyddom ar hyn o bryd faint o’r £91 miliwn hwnnw, os

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it is allocated, will be spent by the various agencies that you will allow the freedom to spend the money. Therefore, there is a real concern about how much of the capital that has been brought forward will be spent so that it aids the economy upfront.

caiff ei ddyrannu, a fydd yn cael ei wario gan yr asiantaethau amrywiol y byddwch yn rhoi rhyddid iddynt wario’r arian. Felly, mae pryder gwirioneddol ynglŷn â faint o’r cyfalaf a ddygwyd ymlaen a fydd yn cael ei wario i helpu’r economi ar y llinell flaen.

Secondly, we would all agree that the situation faced by small and medium-sized enterprises is particularly daunting. It is here where the availability of finance hits hardest. We know that the banks have been profoundly weakened and they remain, if not zombie banks—that is probably over-stating it—at least pretty lacklustre at present. Their immediate objectives are probably to keep current borrowing that is already committed going. The innovation and development that companies want to make is being restricted simply by a lack of access to credit and capital.

Yn ail, byddem i gyd yn cytuno bod mentrau bach a chanolig yn wynebu sefyllfa anodd iawn. Yma y mae anawsterau cyllid yn taro galetaf. Gwyddom fod y banciau lawer yn wannach nag oeddent a’u bod, os nad yn fanciau sombïaidd—mae’n debyg bod hynny’n gor-ddweud pethau—yn ddigon dilewyrch o hyd. Mae’n debyg mai eu hamcanion uniongyrchol yw cadw’r benthyciadau cyfredol yr ymrwymwyd iddynt eisoes. Mae’r gwaith arloesi a datblygu y mae cwmnïau’n awyddus i’w wneud yn cael ei ddal yn ôl, yn syml iawn, oherwydd methu cael credyd a chyfalaf.

We often forget that a lot of the unemployment problem is hidden in SMEs. People who run these small companies will go on half-time, effectively, or not even take a wage from their companies. That is what happens when credit lines run dry. It is a particularly galling problem when the underlying vitality of your business remains robust. What does the Deputy First Minister intend to do for SMEs? We have heard time and again that businesses want help with the tax burden. The bit of the tax burden that the Welsh Assembly Government can help with is business rates. We need to increase the aid that we are giving through business rate relief and ensure that we do our bit to help those who are taking a wage cut, or not taking any wages at all, sometimes so that they can keep some of their staff and not lay them off. It is long overdue that we should concentrate on that area of policy.

Byddwn yn anghofio’n aml fod rhan helaeth o’r broblem ddiweithdra ynghudd mewn mentrau bach a chanolig. Bydd pobl sy’n rhedeg y cwmnïau bach hyn yn gweithio hanner amser, i bob pwrpas, neu hyd yn oed yn peidio â chymryd cyflog o’u cwmnïau. Dyna sy’n digwydd pan fydd llinellau credyd yn mynd yn hesb. Mae’n broblem sy’n ddigon i’ch gwylltio pan fydd bywiogrwydd sylfaenol eich busnes yn dal yn gadarn. Beth y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn bwriadu ei wneud i helpu busnesau bach a chanolig? Clywsom dro ar ôl tro fod ar fusnesau angen cymorth gyda’r baich trethi. Y rhan o’r baich trethi y gall Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru fod o gymorth gyda hi yw ardrethi busnes. Mae angen inni gynyddu’r cymorth a rown drwy ryddhad ardrethi busnes, a sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud ein rhan i helpu’r rheini sy’n cymryd toriad yn eu cyflog, neu’n peidio â chymryd cyflog o gwbl, weithiau er mwyn gallu cadw rhai o’u staff a pheidio â’u diswyddo. Mae’n hen bryd inni ganolbwyntio ar y maes polisi hwnnw.

Finally, I have a specific question about procurement framework and the use of turnover limits in relation to the value of contracts for which companies can tender. I realise why this device is sometimes used, but I find it odd when I talk to companies in Wales that are able to get contracts in England but cannot bid for the same contract

Yn olaf, mae gennyf gwestiwn penodol ynglŷn â’r fframwaith caffael a defnyddio terfynau trosiant mewn cysylltiad â gwerth contractau y gall cwmnïau dendro amdanynt. Sylweddolaf pam y defnyddir y ddyfais hon weithiau, ond mae’n fy nharo’n rhyfedd wrth siarad â chwmnïau yng Nghymru sy’n gallu cael contractau yn Lloegr ond sy’n methu

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value in Wales. That is because of a lack of flexibility in the rules, perhaps. Those rules exist for a purpose, and are safeguards, but they are there to give guidance and are not a strict framework. This indicates that we still have a long way to go with regard to the training requirements of procurement officers in the public sector in Wales.

gwneud cais am gontractau o’r un gwerth yng Nghymru. Efallai fod hynny oherwydd diffyg hyblygrwydd yn y rheolau. Mae’r rheolau hynny’n bodoli ar bwrpas, ac y maent yn fesurau diogelu. Ond maent yno i roi arweiniad, ac nid fframwaith caeth mohonynt. Mae hyn yn dangos bod ffordd bell o’n blaenau o hyd o ran gofynion hyfforddi swyddogion caffael yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

3.50 p.m.

The Deputy First Minister: Thank you for those questions, David. As I think that you are aware, economic experts are reluctant to give us a firm indication of how deep they think that the recession will be and how long it may last. However, I think that you are right to say that the contraction of around 5 per cent of GDP means that we are facing a very serious situation. You are also quite right to point out that the obvious manifestation of that impact is the rise in unemployment, and the figures are indeed very worrying. That is why we have concentrated quite a lot of our resources on trying to prevent people from losing their jobs through the introduction of the ProAct scheme. You also know that we have introduced the ReAct scheme, which means that people recently made unemployed can get help finding alternative employment. That is a help to them and to the new employer.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Diolch ichi am y cwestiynau hynny, David. Fel y gwyddoch, mi gredaf, mae’r arbenigwyr economaidd yn gyndyn o roi syniad pendant inni pa mor ddifrifol y credant fydd y dirwasgiad a faint y gallai bara. Serch hynny, credaf eich bod yn gywir i ddweud bod y crebachu o ryw 5 y cant o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn golygu ein bod yn wynebu sefyllfa ddifrifol iawn. Yr ydych yn hollol gywir hefyd i ddweud bod yr effaith honno i’w gweld yn amlwg iawn yn y cynnydd mewn diweithdra, ac mae’r ffigurau yn wir yn peri llawer iawn o bryder. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi canolbwyntio llawer o’n hadnoddau ar geisio sicrhau na fydd pobl yn colli eu swyddi drwy gyflwyno’r cynllun ProAct. Gwyddoch hefyd ein bod wedi cyflwyno’r cynllun ReAct, sy’n golygu y gall pobl sydd wedi colli eu gwaith yn ddiweddar gael cymorth i ddod o hyd i waith arall. Mae hynny o gymorth iddynt hwy ac i’r cyflogwr newydd.

I also understand your point that it may well be the case that there will be a squeeze on these budgets later in the year because people will be bidding for them. Although it is difficult at this point to be precise about the extent to which the resources are going to be used, I can assure you that we are monitoring progress quite closely. You also made a very important point about the impact of the current situation on the economically inactive. There is perhaps a tendency for employers to look at the market of people who have been made unemployed recently, rather than at training the economically inactive. However, I can tell you that the Government, corporately, is quite keen to ensure that the programmes we have in place to help the economically inactive will not suffer as a result of the extra investment in

Yr wyf hefyd yn deall eich pwynt ei bod yn ddigon posibl y bydd pwysau ar y cyllidebau hyn yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn oherwydd y bydd pobl yn gwneud cais am arian ohonynt. Er ei bod yn anodd dweud yn union ar hyn o bryd i ba raddau y bydd yr adnoddau’n cael eu defnyddio, gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod yn monitro’r cynnydd yn bur ofalus. Gwnaethoch bwynt pwysig iawn hefyd ynglŷn ag effaith y sefyllfa bresennol ar bobl economaidd anweithgar. Efallai fod tuedd i gyflogwyr edrych ar y farchnad pobl sydd wedi colli eu gwaith yn ddiweddar, yn hytrach nag ar hyfforddi pobl economaidd anweithgar. Serch hynny, gallaf ddweud wrthych fod y Llywodraeth, yn gorfforaethol, yn bur awyddus i sicrhau na fydd y rhaglenni sydd gennym i helpu pobl economaidd anweithgar yn dioddef o ganlyniad i’r

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ProAct and ReAct. We are still actively looking to see what we can do in that regard.

buddsoddiad ychwanegol yn ProAct a ReAct. Yr ydym yn dal i ystyried o ddifrif beth y gallwn ei wneud yn y cyswllt hwnnw.

On the issue of bringing forward capital expenditure, the point that we have made is that we have already announced £91 million, which has been committed; that does not mean that the £32 million will not be. It is just that that money is there to enable us to look at other projects that might be brought forward. I am sure that colleagues across the Government will be looking at ways in which their departments can find ways to bring that money forward. However, it is important to say that there is no point in bringing money forward for the sake of it. There must be projects that are ready to go; we are not looking for new projects, but projects that are ready to go, labour-intensive and that will help the construction sector. There are many projects in the course of being prepared, but they are obviously not ready to be brought forward. However, we are looking at what else we can do to bring some investment into the sector.

O ran dwyn gwariant cyfalaf ymlaen, y pwynt yr ydym wedi ei wneud yw ein bod eisoes wedi cyhoeddi £91 miliwn, sydd wedi ei ymrwymo; nid yw hynny’n golygu na fydd y £32 miliwn yn cael ei ymrwymo. Y cyfan y mae’n ei olygu yw bod yr arian hwnnw yno i’n galluogi i edrych ar brosiectau eraill y gellid eu cyflwyno. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd cyd-Aelodau ar draws y Llywodraeth yn edrych ar ddulliau i’w hadrannau ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o ddwyn yr arian hwnnw ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig dweud nad oes diben dwyn arian ymlaen dim ond er mwyn gwneud hynny. Mae’n rhaid bod prosiectau sy’n barod i gychwyn; nid ydym yn chwilio am brosiectau newydd, ond prosiectau sy’n barod i gychwyn, sy’n llafurddwys ac a fydd yn helpu’r sector adeiladu. Mae nifer o brosiectau wrthi’n cael eu paratoi, ond mae’n amlwg nad ydynt yn barod i’w cyflwyno. Serch hynny, yr ydym yn edrych i weld beth arall y gallwn ei wneud i ddod â rhywfaint o fuddsoddiad i mewn i’r sector.

David also made an interesting point about the importance of SMEs to the Welsh economy. I agree very much with him on that. We are hoping that the announcement on JEREMIE will not only help businesses to secure finance from Finance Wales, but that the Finance Wales extra investment will leverage in help from high street banks, working together. We think that that will happen; there are signs that things are improving on the lending front, even with the high street banks—some more than others. He also made the point about hidden unemployment in SMEs, and I can assure him that we are working very hard indeed to ensure that the smallest businesses are given help. That is why the document that we will be launching on access to bank finance will concentrate on the help that we can give to small and medium-sized enterprises in particular.

Gwnaeth David bwynt pwysig hefyd ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd mentrau bach a chanolig i economi Cymru. Cytunaf yn fawr ag ef ar hynny. Yr ydym yn gobeithio y bydd y cyhoeddiad ar JEREMIE yn helpu busnesau i gael cyllid gan Gyllid Cymru, ac y bydd y buddsoddiad ychwanegol gan Gyllid Cymru yn ysgogi cymorth gan fanciau’r stryd fawr, a chydweithio. Credwn y bydd hynny’n digwydd; mae yna arwyddion fod pethau’n gwella ar yr ochr fenthyca, hyd yn oed gyda banciau’r stryd fawr—rhai’n fwy na’i gilydd. Gwnaeth y pwynt hefyd ynglŷn â diweithdra cudd mewn mentrau bach a chanolig, a gallaf ei sicrhau ein bod yn gweithio’n galed iawn i sicrhau bod y busnesau lleiaf yn cael cymorth. Dyna pam y bydd y ddogfen y byddwn yn ei lansio ar gael cyllid gan y banciau yn canolbwyntio ar y cymorth y gallwn ei roi i fentrau bach a chanolig yn benodol.

On procurement, I understand the point that David makes. However, because of the impact of European legislation here, it is very difficult for us to be as flexible as he requested. What we can do is ensure that the

O ran caffael, yr wyf yn deall y pwynt y mae David yn ei wneud. Serch hynny, oherwydd effaith y ddeddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yma, mae’n anodd iawn inni fod mor hyblyg ag y gofynnai. Yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud yw

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size of the contracts in the public sector is in the ballpark that would allow local companies to bid. Contracts in the public sector have tended to become larger and larger—they may be framework contracts—making it difficult for local companies to bid for them. We are working extremely hard, and I know that the Minister for finance is expecting to make some announcements about this shortly.

sicrhau bod maint y contractau yn y sector cyhoeddus o’r maint a fyddai’n caniatáu i gwmnïau lleol wneud cais. Mae contractau yn y sector cyhoeddus wedi tueddu i fynd yn fwy ac yn fwy—gallant fod yn gontractau fframwaith—ac mae hynny’n ei gwneud yn anodd i gwmnïau lleol ymgeisio amdanynt. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n hynod o galed, a gwn fod y Gweinidog dros gyllid yn disgwyl gwneud rhai cyhoeddiadau am hyn yn fuan.

Jeff Cuthbert: Minister, I thank you for making this statement today. I am sure that we would all agree that the all-Wales economic summits are a vital part of monitoring and responding to the current downturn and ensuring that we are doing all that we can to make sure that people and businesses are cushioned as far as possible from its worst effects.

Jeff Cuthbert: Weinidog, diolch ichi am wneud y datganiad hwn heddiw. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddem i gyd yn cytuno bod uwchgynadleddau economaidd Cymru gyfan yn rhan hanfodol o’r gwaith o fonitro ac ymateb i’r dirywiad presennol ac o sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth posibl i sicrhau bod pobl a busnesau’n cael eu diogelu gymaint â phosibl rhag ei effeithiau gwaethaf.

To that end, I welcome what you have already spent some time talking about, which is the announcement of the launch of the £150 million JEREMIE fund in Wales, which is the first of its kind in the UK. As well as money from the European Investment Bank, the fund will draw down from our allocation of the structural funds and will provide, as you have outlined, vital capital for SMEs during this difficult time. I understand that it has been estimated that 800 businesses will benefit from the fund and that up to around 15,000 jobs will be created. That is excellent news.

I’r perwyl hwnnw, yr wyf yn croesawu’r hyn yr ydych eisoes wedi treulio ychydig amser yn siarad amdano, sef cyhoeddi lansio cronfa JEREMIE yng Nghymru, cronfa sy’n werth £150 miliwn, a’r gyntaf o’i bath yn y DU. Yn ogystal ag arian o Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop, bydd y gronfa’n cael ein dyraniad o’r cronfeydd strwythurol, ac fel yr ydych wedi ei amlinellu, bydd yn darparu cyfalaf hanfodol i fentrau bach a chanolig yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn. Deallaf fod amcangyfrif y bydd 800 o fusnesau’n elwa o’r gronfa ac y bydd hyd at ryw 15,000 o swyddi’n cael eu creu. Mae hynny’n newyddion gwych.

When we consider ProAct and ReAct, we see yet more evidence of how we use the structural funds as an important part of the tools at our disposal to help bring us through the recession and prepare for the economic upturn. No-one argues that the structural funds will solve the economic problems in Wales, but they certainly can be part of the solution.

Pan fyddwn yn ystyried ProAct a ReAct, gwelwn fwy byth o dystiolaeth o’r ffordd yr ydym yn defnyddio’r cronfeydd strwythurol fel rhan bwysig o’r offer sydd ar gael inni i’n helpu i ddod drwy’r dirwasgiad ac i baratoi ar gyfer yr adeg pan fydd yr economi’n gwella. Nid oes neb yn dadlau y bydd y cronfeydd strwythurol yn datrys y problemau economaidd yng Nghymru, ond yn sicr gallant fod yn rhan o’r ateb.

Therefore, will you agree, Deputy First Minister, that the Welsh Assembly Government, in partnership with the European Union, is taking a concerted multi-layered approach to tackling the economic crisis in Wales, and not adopting a sparse ‘do nothing’ approach, like certain opposition

Felly, a gytunwch, Ddirprwy Weinidog, fod agwedd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, mewn partneriaeth â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, at fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng economaidd yng Nghymru yn un amlhaenog a chydunol, ac nad agwedd wantan o ‘wneud dim’ sydd ganddi, yn wahanol i ambell wrthblaid?

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parties?

The Deputy First Minister: You are right, Jeff, to concentrate on the role that structural funds are playing in assisting the Government in meeting the challenges of the recession. It is at a time such as this that we value the fact that we have access to those funds. You are quite right to point out that the JEREMIE announcement is truly innovative in that it is the first in the United Kingdom and the first of its type in the whole of Europe. There is a mixture of ERDF funding, some money from Finance Wales, and money from the European Investment Bank. It will help a number of businesses. It is important to keep stressing that it is not just about access to Finance Wales money. If you can get access to support through the new JEREMIE programme, that will also lever in more support from the high street banks. You are right to point out the role that structural funds are playing in ProAct and ReAct. The way that the Welsh Assembly Government has responded to the recession, being imaginative in the way that we use all of the resources at our disposal, is something that many other parts of the United Kingdom and Europe are looking to, because we have taken the lead.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle, Jeff, i ganolbwyntio ar rôl cronfeydd strwythurol wrth gynorthwyo’r Llywodraeth i wynebu her y dirwasgiad. Ar adegau fel hyn yr ydym yn gwerthfawrogi’r ffaith fod y cronfeydd hynny ar gael inni. Yr ydych yn hollol gywir i ddweud bod y cyhoeddiad am JEREMIE yn wirioneddol arloesol, gan mai hwn yw’r cyntaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig a’r cyntaf o’i fath yn holl wledydd Ewrop. Mae yna gyfuniad o arian ERDF, rhywfaint o arian gan Gyllid Cymru ac arian gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Bydd yn helpu nifer o fusnesau. Mae’n bwysig dal i bwysleisio bod hyn yn golygu mwy na dim ond cael arian gan Gyllid Cymru. Os gallwch gael cefnogaeth drwy’r rhaglen JEREMIE newydd, bydd hynny hefyd yn denu mwy o gefnogaeth gan fanciau’r stryd fawr. Yr ydych yn gywir i gyfeirio at rôl cronfeydd strwythurol yn ProAct a ReAct. Mae’r ffordd y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymateb i’r dirwasgiad, drwy ddangos dychymyg yn y ffordd yr ydym yn defnyddio’r holl adnoddau sydd ar gael inni, yn rhywbeth y mae llawer rhan arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig ac Ewrop yn edrych arno, oherwydd yr ydym wedi arwain y ffordd.

You are right that the work that the Welsh Assembly Government has done, with the European Union, has been excellent to date. The discussions on the other matters raised a few weeks ago about increasing intervention rates are going extremely well and positively, I understand. I hope that we can have some positive announcements on that soon.

Yr ydych yn gywir fod y gwaith y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ei wneud, gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, wedi bod yn wych hyd yn hyn. Deallaf fod y trafodaethau am y materion eraill a godwyd ychydig wythnosau’n ôl ynglŷn â chynyddu cyfraddau ymyrryd yn mynd ymlaen yn dda iawn ac yn gadarnhaol. Gobeithio y gallwn gael rhai cyhoeddiadau cadarnhaol am hynny’n fuan.

Jenny Randerson: Thank you for the statement and for the opportunity that you give after each economic summit of a briefing prior to the public statements. That is very helpful.

Jenny Randerson: Diolch ichi am y datganiad ac am y cyfle yr ydych yn ei roi ar ôl pob uwchgynhadledd i gael sesiwn briffio cyn y datganiadau cyhoeddus. Mae hynny’n ddefnyddiol iawn.

I am rather surprised by the words in the second paragraph of your statement

Yr wyf yn synnu braidd at y geiriau sydd yn ail baragraff eich datganiad

‘although the overall position still remains reasonable by historic standards.’

er bod y sefyllfa gyffredinol yn dal yn rhesymol yn ôl safonau hanesyddol.

If you take any measure—the speed of the Os cymerwch unrhyw fesur—pa mor gyflym

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fall of GDP, the speed of the rise of unemployment, the speed of the rise in borrowing, or the magnitude of the rise in public borrowing, for example—I would say that the overall position is far from reasonable. We should all be aware of how serious it remains. We should not feel that, because the banks appear to be rather more stable than they were a few months ago, the position is other than extremely serious.

mae cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn gostwng, pa mor gyflym mae ffigurau diweithdra’n codi, pa mor gyflym mae ffigurau benthyca’n codi, neu faint o gynnydd sydd mewn benthyca cyhoeddus, er enghraifft—byddwn yn dweud nad yw’r sefyllfa gyffredinol yn rhesymol o bell ffordd. Dylem i gyd fod yn ymwybodol mor ddifrifol yw pethau o hyd. Er bod y banciau’n ymddangos ychydig yn fwy sefydlog nag oeddent rai misoedd yn ôl, mae’r sefyllfa’n dal yn ddifrifol tu hwnt.

I have a number of questions that have not yet been addressed. I will start with the additional money for Finance Wales, which is very welcome, of course. The major issue with Finance Wales is the interest rates. I understand the problems with changing the interest rates, because of the EU regulations on this matter, but I would be interested in having an update on any negotiations that you have had with the EU in relation to reducing the interest rates that Finance Wales can charge in light of the currently very low official bank interest rates.

Mae gennyf nifer o gwestiynau nad ydynt wedi cael sylw eto. Dechreuaf gyda’r arian ychwanegol ar gyfer Cyllid Cymru, sydd i’w groesawu’n fawr, wrth gwrs. Y broblem fwyaf gyda Chyllid Cymru yw’r cyfraddau llog. Yr wyf yn deall y problemau gyda’r newid mewn cyfraddau llog, oherwydd rheoliadau’r UE ar y mater hwn, ond hoffwn gael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am unrhyw drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r UE ynghylch gostwng y cyfraddau llog y gall Cyllid Cymru eu codi yn sgil cyfraddau llog swyddogol y banciau, sy’n hynod o isel ar hyn o bryd.

4.00 p.m.

Moving on from that to the issue of the ProAct and ReAct schemes—and it is good to hear that ProAct is being taken up energetically—you say that 32 applications have been made for the £48 million-worth fund. How much do those 32 applications roughly amount to in money terms? What I am trying to ascertain, Deputy First Minister, is how much money is left and, leading on from that, whether you are in a position to say whether any more money will be made available should that ProAct fund become exhausted. One thing that businesses do need at this time is some kind of certainty.

I symud ymlaen o hynny at fater y cynlluniau ProAct a ReAct—ac mae’n dda clywed bod ProAct yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n egnïol—dywedwch fod 32 o geisiadau wedi’u gwneud am y gronfa, sy’n werth £48 miliwn. Beth, yn fras, yw gwerth y 32 o geisiadau hynny yn ariannol? Yr hyn yr wyf yn ceisio’i ddarganfod, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, yw faint o arian sydd ar ôl, ac i arwain ymlaen o hynny a ydych mewn sefyllfa i ddweud a gaiff rhagor o arian ei ddarparu os bydd y gronfa ProAct honno’n cael ei dihysbyddu. Un peth y mae ar fusnesau ei angen ar yr adeg hon yw rhyw fath o sicrwydd.

On that issue of certainty—and, not surprisingly, it is not mentioned in the statement, as it would not have been covered at the summit—I want to take this opportunity to ask you how your decision on the funding of the Wales Rally GB fits in with your overall strategy for the economy. I am concerned about the loss of jobs and loss of tourism income at a time of year when the tourism industry is generally very quiet. It

Ar y mater hwnnw o sicrwydd—a heb fod yn annisgwyl nid yw’n cael ei grybwyll yn y datganiad, gan na fyddai wedi cael ei drafod yn yr uwchgynhadledd—hoffwn achub ar y cyfle hwn i ofyn ichi sut mae eich penderfyniad ar ariannu Rali Cymru Prydain Fawr yn cyd-fynd â’ch strategaeth gyffredinol ar gyfer yr economi. Yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch y colli swyddi a cholli incwm twristiaeth ar adeg o’r flwyddyn pan

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concerns me that the Government clearly finds itself potentially faced with legal proceedings brought by the organisers of the rally. That change of heart on your part in the middle of the contract, whatever the legal justification for it—and I understand the points that you made in your written statement—means that there will be uncertainty in the minds of organisers of large events who apply to the Welsh Assembly Government in future. In other words, there is a real issue about the Government’s reputation for reliability in relation to this.

fydd y diwydiant twristiaeth, yn gyffredinol, yn hynod o dawel. Mae’n peri pryder imi fod y Llywodraeth yn amlwg yn cael ei hun mewn sefyllfa lle gallai wynebu achos cyfreithiol gan drefnwyr y rali. Mae’r newid meddwl hwnnw ar eich rhan yng nghanol y contract, beth bynnag yw’r cyfiawnhad cyfreithiol drosto—ac yr wyf yn deall y pwyntiau a wnaethoch yn eich datganiad ysgrifenedig—yn golygu y bydd ansicrwydd ym meddyliau trefnwyr digwyddiadau mawr sy’n gwneud cais i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn y dyfodol. Mewn geiriau eraill, mae yna fater pwysig ynglŷn ag enw da’r Llywodraeth am ddibynadwyedd mewn cysylltiad â hyn.

Moving on, you refer in your statement to the boost for post-16 education. That is very much to be welcomed, as is the £8.9 million extra for further education. It was always illogical that that money was not available in the first place, but it has not made up the gap. I notice from the news today that 49 redundancies have been announced at Yale College, and I know that a number of other colleges remain in a position of negotiating redundancies. That flies in the face of the statement made by the Deputy Minister for Skills when that additional money was announced. Although I realise that this is not strictly within your portfolio of responsibilities, I would like your assurance as Deputy First Minister that the Government remains alert to the continuing serious problems in the FE sector. Many colleges are still suffering seriously from loss of income, and considerable numbers of redundancies are being announced within FE and higher education, all of which contributes to the overall unemployment levels in the economy and has a spin-off effect. I am sure that, in your role as Minister for economic development, you will agree that that is of key importance to economic development.

I symud ymlaen, cyfeiriwch yn eich datganiad at yr hwb i addysg ar ôl-16. Mae hynny i’w groesawu’n fawr, ac felly hefyd yr £8.9 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer addysg bellach. Yr oedd bob amser yn afresymegol nad oedd yr arian hwnnw ar gael yn y lle cyntaf, ond nid yw wedi llenwi’r bwlch. Sylwaf o’r newyddion heddiw fod 49 o ddiswyddiadau wedi’u cyhoeddi yng Ngholeg Iâl, a gwn fod nifer o golegau eraill yn dal mewn sefyllfa o fod yn trafod diswyddiadau. Mae hynny’n mynd yn groes i’r datganiad a wnaethpwyd gan y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau pan gyhoeddwyd yr arian ychwanegol hwnnw. Er fy mod yn sylweddoli nad yw hyn, a bod yn fanwl gywir, o fewn eich portffolio cyfrifoldebau, hoffwn gael eich sicrwydd fel Dirprwy Brif Weinidog fod y Llywodraeth yn dal yn ymwybodol o’r problemau difrifol parhaus yn y sector addysg bellach. Mae llawer o golegau’n dal i ddioddef yn ddifrifol yn sgil colli incwm, ac mae niferoedd sylweddol o ddiswyddiadau’n cael eu cyhoeddi mewn addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, a hynny i gyd yn cyfrannu at y lefelau diweithdra cyffredinol yn yr economi gan gael effaith ganlyniadol. Yr wyf yn siŵr, yn eich swyddogaeth fel Gweinidog datblygu economaidd, y byddwch yn cytuno bod hynny o bwys allweddol i ddatblygiad economaidd.

I have two issues, finally, the first being the issue of procurement. You said earlier that contracts were getting bigger year on year, and I understand that point, but you should understand that that was because the Welsh

Mae gennyf ddau fater i gloi, ac mae’r cyntaf yn ymwneud â chaffael. Soniech yn gynharach fod contractau’n tyfu flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, ac yr wyf yn deall y pwynt hwnnw. Ond dylech ddeall mai’r rheswm am

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Assembly Government instructed local authorities and the NHS to provide framework contracts, which, of course, meant that they got larger. I am pleased to hear about the European Commission instructions, but is that also part of an overall strategy that we will hear announced soon? Perhaps you could confirm the timeframe for announcing developments on the procurement process, and an overall strategy to reduce the size of contracts, as you suggested earlier.

hynny oedd bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi dweud wrth awdurdodau lleol a’r GIG am ddarparu contractau fframwaith, a oedd, wrth gwrs, yn golygu eu bod yn tyfu. Yr wyf yn falch clywed am gyfarwyddiadau’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, ond a yw hynny hefyd yn rhan o strategaeth gyffredinol y byddwn yn clywed ei chyhoeddi’n fuan? Efallai y gallech gadarnhau’r amserlen ar gyfer cyhoeddi datblygiadau yn y broses gaffael, a strategaeth gyffredinol i leihau maint contractau, fel yr awgrymech yn gynharach.

My second point is on business rate relief. I understand that your finances are stretched, but I urge you to keep business rate relief firmly under surveillance, because, when I speak to owners of small and medium-sized enterprises, they say time and again that that is the key to making life easier for them. I understand the measures that were announced just prior to the budget, allowing small businesses to defer some of this year’s increase, but that is just deferring the problem. It may be an immediate resolution for them, but if the economy does not pick up, it will simply defer the problem so that it is even bigger next year. I strongly urge you to consider a much more generous package of business rate relief as has been done in Scotland, which has proved to be popular and successful.

Mae fy ail bwynt yn ymwneud â rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Yr wyf yn deall bod eich arian yn brin, ond anogaf chi i gadw llygad fanwl ar ryddhad ardrethi busnes, oherwydd pan fyddaf yn siarad â pherchnogion busnesau bach a chanolig, maent yn dweud dro ar ôl tro mai dyna’r allwedd i wneud bywyd yn haws iddynt. Yr wyf yn deall y mesurau a gyhoeddwyd toc cyn y gyllideb, yn caniatáu i fusnesau bach ohirio rhywfaint o’r cynnydd eleni, ond gohirio’r broblem yw hynny. Efallai ei fod yn ateb sydyn iddynt hwy, ond os nad yw’r economi’n gwella, yr unig beth a wna fydd gohirio’r broblem nes iddi fynd hyd yn oed yn fwy y flwyddyn nesaf. Anogaf chi’n gryf i ystyried pecyn llawer mwy hael o ryddhad ardrethi busnes, fel sydd wedi’i gyflwyno yn yr Alban ac sydd wedi bod yn boblogaidd ac yn llwyddiannus.

The Deputy First Minister: Thank you very much for your questions, Jenny, and for your kind remarks at the beginning of your contribution regarding the briefings. I hope that you find them helpful, and we will continue to hold them as regularly as we can. It might be too strong a word, but you seemed to castigate us for complacency, more or less, in saying that looking at the historical context of the labour market data remains reasonable. I was not in any way indicating that the recession is not very deep in Wales, as it is in other parts of the United Kingdom, but the current position compares reasonably well if you look at the historical context of the labour market data. I am not overstressing this, but it is right that we put that in its proper context. On the employment rate ratios, although we still have some way to go and although there has been a little

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich cwestiynau, Jenny, ac am eich sylwadau caredig ar ddechrau eich cyfraniad ynghylch y sesiynau briffio. Gobeithio’u bod o ddefnydd ichi, a byddwn yn parhau i’w cynnal mor rheolaidd ag y gallwn. Efallai ei fod yn air rhy gryf, ond yr oeddech fel petaech yn ein ceryddu am fod yn hunanfoddhaus, fwy neu lai, wrth ddweud bod edrych ar gyd-destun hanesyddol data’r farchnad lafur yn dal yn rhesymol. Nid oeddwn yn awgrymu mewn unrhyw fodd nad yw’r dirwasgiad yn un hynod o ddwfn yng Nghymru, fel y mae mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig, ond mae’r sefyllfa bresennol yn cymharu’n rhesymol o dda os edrychwch ar gyd-destun hanesyddol data’r farchnad lafur. Nid wyf yn gorbwysleisio hyn, ond mae’n briodol inni roi hynny yn ei gyd-destun cywir. O ran cymarebau’r gyfradd

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drop-off recently, I still think that it is reasonable by historical standards.

gyflogaeth, er bod gennym ychydig ffordd i fynd eto ac er inni weld ychydig ostyngiad yn ddiweddar, yr wyf yn dal i gredu ei bod yn rhesymol yn ôl safonau hanesyddol.

The additional money for Finance Wales is quite significant: £30 million per year over five years. That money will re-circulate in the economy, because, as companies repay those loans, the money will be available for future use as well.

Mae’r arian ychwanegol i Gyllid Cymru yn ddigon sylweddol: £30 miliwn y flwyddyn dros bum mlynedd. Bydd yr arian hwnnw’n cael ei ailgylchu yn yr economi oherwydd, wrth i gwmnïau ad-dalu’r benthyciadau hynny, bydd yr arian ar gael i’w ddefnyddio yn y dyfodol hefyd.

You are right to make the point regarding the reference rate, which links the interest rate for Finance Wales. There has been a downward movement on the reference rate, which has been very helpful. The businesses that I am speaking to have not told me that they have any major difficulties with the interest rates currently charged by Finance Wales. However, we will keep that under review.

Yr ydych yn iawn i wneud y pwynt ynghylch y gyfradd gyfeirio, sy’n cysylltu’r gyfradd llog ar gyfer Cyllid Cymru. Bu symudiad tuag i lawr ar y gyfradd gyfeirio, sydd wedi bod yn hynod o ddefnyddiol. Nid yw’r busnesau y byddaf yn siarad â hwy wedi dweud wrthyf fod ganddynt unrhyw broblemau mawr o ran y cyfraddau llog y mae Cyllid Cymru yn eu codi ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn cadw golwg ar hynny.

We are also keeping under review the ProAct scheme. The figure of 32 is not the total number of applications received but the number of applications so far approved; there are many more applications in the pipeline. I cannot give you the amount of money that that represents, although I will write to you to confirm that figure. However, I can tell you that those granted applications are protecting 2,000 jobs and, over a full year, if the whole of the budget is used, it will save around 12,000 jobs. Therefore, it is making a major contribution.

Yr ydym hefyd yn cadw golwg ar y cynllun ProAct. Nid yw’r ffigur o 32 yn cyfeirio at gyfanswm y ceisiadau a gafwyd, ond yn hytrach at nifer y ceisiadau sydd wedi’u cymeradwyo hyd yn hyn; mae llawer mwy o geisiadau yn yr arfaeth. Ni allaf ddweud wrthych faint o arian y mae hynny’n ei gynrychioli, ond ysgrifennaf atoch i gadarnhau’r ffigur hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud wrthych fod y ceisiadau hynny sydd wedi’u cymeradwyo yn diogelu 2,000 o swyddi, a thros flwyddyn gyfan, os defnyddir y gyllideb gyfan, bydd yn achub tua 12,000 o swyddi. Mae’n gwneud cyfraniad o bwys, felly.

4.10 p.m.

You raised the Wales Rally GB. It is important to stress that it was because of the change in the status of the rally that we made the decision to write to the organisers about the contract. If the rally had not changed its status, we would not have done that. It is because of the change in the status, therefore, that we have served notice of the termination of the contract. Nevertheless, we have made it clear that we are prepared to talk, without prejudice, to the organisers about future support for the rally in those years in which it

Codwyd mater Rali Cymru Prydain Fawr gennych. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio mai oherwydd y newid yn statws y rali y gwnaethom y penderfyniad i ysgrifennu at y trefnwyr am y contract. Pe na byddai’r rali wedi newid ei statws, ni fyddem wedi gwneud hynny. Oherwydd y newid yn y statws, felly, yr ydym wedi rhoi rhybudd ein bod yn terfynu’r contract. Er hynny, yr ydym wedi dweud yn glir ein bod yn fodlon siarad, heb ymrwymiad, â’r trefnwyr ynglŷn â chefnogaeth i’r rali yn y dyfodol yn y

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is to be held. I am pleased to say that, following a letter that I sent to the chief executive of International Motor Sport Ltd restating the Assembly Government’s willingness to enter without-prejudice discussions, the IMS has agreed that such discussions should take place. Those discussions will be arranged as the next step, and the Welsh Assembly Government will be represented by my senior official. That is an important development in the story. I cannot make any further comment in view of the issues that you have raised.

blynyddoedd hynny pan gaiff ei chynnal. Mae’n bleser gennyf ddweud, yn dilyn llythyr a anfonais at brif weithredwr International Motor Sport Cyf yn ailddatgan parodrwydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i gychwyn trafodaethau heb ymrwymiad, fod IMS wedi cytuno y dylid cynnal trafodaethau o’r fath. Caiff y trafodaethau hynny eu trefnu fel y cam nesaf, a chaiff Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei chynrychioli gan fy uwch-swyddog. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad pwysig yn y stori. Ni allaf wneud dim rhagor o sylwadau yn sgil y materion yr ydych wedi’u codi.

It is also important that the Government recognise the role of further education by making a further payment of £8.9 million available. It will be difficult to increase that in view of the tight settlement that we have had, but we hope that it shows our feeling that further education colleges need to play their part in helping us to meet the challenges of the recession. Given the amount of money that we are allocating for the skills programme, many colleges will wish to be a part of that.

Mae’n bwysig hefyd i’r Llywodraeth gydnabod swyddogaeth addysg bellach drwy ddarparu taliad pellach o £8.9 miliwn. Bydd yn anodd cynyddu hynny yn sgil y setliad tynn yr ydym wedi’i gael, ond gobeithiwn ei fod yn dangos ein teimlad fod angen i golegau addysg bellach wneud eu rhan i’n helpu i ateb heriau’r dirwasgiad. O ystyried faint o arian yr ydym yn ei ddyrannu ar gyfer y rhaglen sgiliau, bydd nifer o golegau am fod yn rhan o hynny.

On procurement, there will be a statement before long by the Minister for finance, when all the work has concluded around the necessary discussions. However, the intention has always been that we ensure that the £4.5 billion per year that is spent by the public sector in Wales can be accessed by local companies as far as is possible through the tendering process. We recognise the role that it can play in bringing down unemployment, and we will be working hard to ensure that that is the case.

O ran caffael, bydd cyhoeddiad cyn hir gan y Gweinidog cyllid, pan fydd yr holl waith wedi’i gwblhau ynglŷn â’r trafodaethau angenrheidiol. Fodd bynnag, y bwriad ers y cychwyn yw inni sicrhau bod cwmnïau lleol yn gallu cael y £4.5 biliwn y flwyddyn a gaiff ei wario gan y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, i’r graddau y mae hynny’n bosibl drwy’r broses dendro. Yr ydym yn cydnabod y rhan y gall ei chwarae wrth leihau diweithdra, a byddwn yn gweithio’n galed i sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd.

We will also be working with local government to ensure that its share of capital spend, which is substantially more than that of the Assembly Government, also benefits local companies. That needs the co-operation of procurement officers throughout Wales. I have made our position on business rate relief clear on several occasions, but I can tell Jenny that we keep the matter under review.

Byddwn hefyd yn gweithio gyda llywodraeth leol i sicrhau bod cwmnïau lleol hefyd yn elwa yn sgil ei chyfran hi o’r gwariant cyfalaf, sy’n sylweddol fwy na chyfran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n gofyn am gydweithrediad swyddogion caffael ledled Cymru. Yr wyf wedi egluro droeon ein safbwynt ar ryddhad ardrethi busnes, ond gallaf ddweud wrth Jenny ein bod yn dal i adolygu’r mater.

Gareth Jones: Diolchaf i chi, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, am eich datganiad, ac am rannu’r wybodaeth hon gyda ni, yn adborth o’r

Gareth Jones: I thank you, Deputy First Minister, for your statement, and for sharing this information with us, as feedback from

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pumed uwchgynhadledd economaidd. Diolch hefyd am y gwahoddiad i ymuno â chi y bore yma, i gael rhyw ragflas o’r hyn y bu ichi ymdrin ag ef yn ystod yr uwchgynhadledd.

the fifth economic summit. I also thank you for the invitation to join you this morning for a kind of taster session of what you dealt with during the summit.

Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed am gronfa JEREMIE, a’r ffaith eich bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r banciau lle y bu trafferthion, a achosodd drafferthion eraill, fel y gwyddom. Edrychwn ymlaen yn awr at weld y canllaw at gyrchu cyllid banc y gallwn ei groesawu’n fawr iawn.

I was pleased to hear of the JEREMIE fund, and that you are getting to grips with the banks where there have been difficulties, which have led to other difficulties, as we know. We now look forward to seeing the guidelines on accessing bank finance which we can warmly welcome.

A minnau’n Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, gallaf ddweud ein bod wedi nodi bod gennych gynrychiolwyr y sectorau addysg uwch a phellach yn yr uwchgynhadledd, rhywbeth a drafodwyd gennym yn y pwyllgor. Yr wyf yn falch o weld hynny’n digwydd. Yr hyn yr hoffwn ichi ei ystyried, gan edrych ar y sefyllfa yn gyffredinol, yw bod angen cofio nad dirwasgiad sy’n ymwneud â Llywodraeth Cymru yn unig mohono; mae’n ddirwasgiad ac yn sefyllfa economaidd sy’n effeithio ar bob sefydliad, y tu mewn a thu hwnt i’n ffiniau. Mae gofyn i’r sefydliadau a’r cyrff gwahanol fod yn rhagweithiol wrth geisio mynediad i’r holl gynlluniau sy’n deillio o’r Llywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd. Ni fyddant yn effeithiol iawn oni bai bod cefnogaeth iddynt.

As Chair of the Enterprise and Learning Committee, I can say that we have noted that you had representatives at the summit from the further and higher education sectors, which we have discussed as a committee. I am pleased to see that happening. Looking at this situation in the round, what I should like you to bear in mind is that this is not a recession relating only to the Government of Wales; it is a recession and an economic situation that affects every organisation, within and without the boundaries of Wales. The various bodies and organisations will be required to be proactive in accessing all the excellent schemes which are being put forward by the Government here in Cardiff. They will not be very effective unless they receive support.

Yn galonogol, ceir arfer da. Yr oeddwn yng Ngholeg Llandrillo fore Llun diwethaf, a chafodd gwaith da y coleg drwy ei fenter Pwynt Busnes gydnabyddiaeth, gan iddo ennill un o’r gwobrau Beacon. Mae’r fenter yn hwyluso’r berthynas rhwng y cyflogwyr a’r coleg ym maes sgiliau. Credaf y dylem wneud llawer mwy i gydnabod yr arfer da hwnnw. Hefyd, dylem ymestyn yr un ddelwedd i lywodraeth leol. Mae eich cyfeiriad y prynhawn yma at ddwyn cyfalaf a gwariant ymlaen fel y gallwn sicrhau cyflogaeth felly i’w groesawu’n fawr.

Encouragingly, there is good practice. I was at Coleg Llandrillo last Monday morning, and the good work of the college through its Business Point venture was recognised by its being awarded a Beacon award. That venture smoothes the relationship between employers and the college in the skills sector, and I feel we should do a good deal more to recognise that good practice. We should also extend the same kind of vision to local government. Your reference this afternoon to bringing capital and expenditure forward so that we can boost employment is to be warmly welcomed.

Fodd bynnag, tybed faint o awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru sy’n rhannu’r weledigaeth? Faint o arian sy’n eistedd wrth gefn mewn rhaglenni cyfalaf sydd eto i’w wario gan ein hawdurdodau lleol? Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn edrych eto ar gyflymu’r broses gaffael—mae nifer o Aelodau eisoes wedi cyfeirio at hynny—ond, eto, mae rhai awdurdodau lleol

However, I wonder how many local authorities in Wales share that vision. How much money which is yet to be spent by our local authorities is sitting in capital programme reserves? I am pleased that you are looking into speeding up the procurement process—many Members have referred to that—but some local authorities are making

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yn gwneud gwell cynnydd yn y maes hwn nag eraill. Nid wyf yn dweud y dylech feirniadu’r rhai nad ydynt yn ymateb mor bositif ag y dylent, ond, yn sicr, dylem, fel Llywodraeth, gydnabod arferion da a chywilyddio eraill i ddilyn y trywydd ac i sicrhau eu bod yn deall pa mor bwysig yw cyd-fynd â holl syniadau a pholisïau da Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o dan amodau ddigon anodd. Felly, mae’n rhaid i ni ledaenu’r arferion da hyn a sicrhau bod pob corff a sefydliad yn gweld eu rôl nhw i weithio gyda chi yn rhagweithiol. Credaf y dylem fynnu bod hynny’n digwydd. Fodd bynnag, croesawaf y datganiad a diolchaf am y cyfle hwn i wneud sylwadau.

better progress in this field than others. I am not saying that you should judge those that are not responding as positively as they should, but we, as a Government, should certainly recognise good practice and shame others to follow the same route and to ensure that they understand how important it is to comply with all the Assembly Government’s good ideas and policies under difficult circumstances. Therefore, we must extend these good practices, ensuring that all organisations are aware of their role in working proactively with you. I believe we should insist on that. However, I welcome the statement and I am grateful for this opportunity to comment.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Diolch, Gareth. Gwnewch bwynt da, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, bod ceisiadau wedi eu gwneud i sicrhau bod cynrychiolwyr addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yn dod yn rhan o’r uwchgynadleddau. Mae hynny wedi digwydd a gobeithiwn y byddwn yn gallu trafod, ar agenda’r uwchgynhadledd nesaf, rôl y sector hwn i’n cynorthwyo wrth ddod allan o’r dirwasgiad cyfredol.

The Deputy First Minister: Thank you, Gareth. You make a good point, as the committee Chair, that people have asked for the representatives of higher and further education to play a part in the summits. That has now happened, and we hope to have an agenda item at the next summit on the role of the sector in helping us out of this recession.

Yr ydych hefyd yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn ynglŷn â rôl pob sefydliad yng Nghymru. Pan soniwn am y £4.5 biliwn a gaiff ei wario gan y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn, 13 y cant sy’n cael ei wario’n uniongyrchol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae gweddill yr arian yn cael ei wario drwy sefydliadau a ariennir gan y Cynulliad neu gan lywodraeth leol. Mae nifer o awdurdodau yn gwneud yr hyn y gallant ei wneud, ond byddwn yn sicr yn annog llywodraeth leol i edrych ar sut y gall ddefnyddio ei harian cyfalaf i sicrhau bod gwaith yn cael ei wneud, yn arbennig yn y diwydiant adeiladu, ac yn annog swyddogion caffael awdurdodau lleol i edrych ar bwysigrwydd sicrhau bod contractau a osodir yn rhai mae cwmnïau lleol yn gallu gwneud cais amdanynt. Drwy sicrhau cydweithio o’r fath—mae nifer o awdurdodau eisoes yn gwneud hynny—gallwn annog y gweddill i gydweithio gyda ni.

You also make a very important point on the role of all Welsh organisations. When we talk of the £4.5 billion which is spent by the public sector in Wales every year, only 13 per cent is spent directly by the Assembly Government. The rest of the money is spent through organisations funded by the Assembly or by local government. Many authorities do what they can, but I would encourage local government to consider how it can use its capital funding to ensure that work is done, especially in the construction industry, and to encourage local authority procurement officers to consider the importance of ensuring that local companies are able to bid for any contracts that are let. By ensuring such co-operation—many authorities are already doing this—we can encourage the remainder to work with us.

Yr oeddech yn dweud bod nifer o golegau eisoes yn arddangos arferion da, yn enwedig ar yr ochr menter a busnes. Byddwn yn gofyn i’r colegau nad ydynt wedi cwrdd â’r

You said that many colleges are already demonstrating good practice, especially on business and enterprise. I would ask the colleges that have not yet met the

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gofynion hyd yma i wneud hynny ac i edrych ar yr hyn mae nifer o golegau eraill yn ei wneud er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn defnyddio’r arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer hybu sgiliau mewn ffordd mwy effeithiol.

requirements to look at what other colleges are doing, in order to ensure a more effective use of the money which is available to promote skills.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 4.18 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 4.18 p.m.

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal ar Faterion sy’n Effeithio ar Weithwyr Mudol Cymru, eu Teuluoedd a’r Cymunedau y Maent yn Byw ac yn Gweithio

YnddyntThe Committee on Equality of Opportunity’s Report on Issues Affecting Migrant Workers in Wales, their Families and the Communities in which They Live and

Work

Ann Jones: I move that Ann Jones: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

notes the report of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, ‘Issues affecting migrant workers in Wales, their families and the communities in which they live and work’, which was laid in the Table Office on 26 November 2008. (NDM4195)

yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, ‘Materion sy’n effeithio ar weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru, eu teuluoedd a’r cymunedau y maent yn byw a gweithio ynddynt’, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 26 Tachwedd 2008. (NDM4195)

It is with great pride that I present this report to the Assembly and ask the Assembly to support the motion.

Gyda balchder mawr y cyflwynaf yr adroddiad hwn i’r Cynulliad a gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r cynnig.

When the Committee on Equality of Opportunity first considered launching an inquiry into issues affecting migrant workers in Wales, we understood that it could potentially be one of the most controversial activities ever undertaken by an Assembly committee. However, the way in which we received evidence and how this report has emerged will hopefully send out a clear and positive message and one that underpins equality, namely that we are all different, but are all equal.

Pan ystyriodd y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal am y tro cyntaf ddechrau ymchwiliad i faterion yn effeithio ar weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru, deallem y gallai’r gweithgaredd hwnnw gael y potensial o fod yn un o’r gweithgareddau mwyaf dadleuol erioed i un o bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad ymgymryd ag ef. Fodd bynnag, gobeithio y bydd y ffordd y cawsom dystiolaeth a’r modd y mae’r adroddiad hwn wedi ymddangos yn cyfleu neges glir a chadarnhaol, neges sy’n sail i gydraddoldeb, sef ein bod i gyd yn wahanol, ond i gyd yn gyfartal.

As with most committees, membership has changed since this inquiry was first considered, and I am grateful to all Members who have been associated with this report and to committee staff, whose skills have assisted the committee during this inquiry.

Fel gyda phob pwyllgor, mae’r aelodaeth wedi newid ers i’r ymchwiliad hwn gael ei ystyried gyntaf, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r holl Aelodau a fu’n gysylltiedig â’r adroddiad hwn ac i staff y pwyllgorau. Mae eu sgiliau wedi cynorthwyo’r pwyllgor yn ystod yr ymchwiliad hwn.

In our inquiry, we heard some extremely Yn ein hymchwiliad, clywsom hanesion a

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concerning stories of exploitation, but we also heard encouraging examples of support being offered to migrant workers in Wales, helping them to integrate into communities and workplaces. There are excellent examples of work undertaken by some local authorities and voluntary organisations in producing information packs for migrant families and myth-busting leaflets for local communities.

oedd yn ein poeni’n fawr am gamfanteisio, ond clywsom hefyd am enghreifftiau calonogol o gynnig cefnogaeth i weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru, gan eu helpu i integreiddio mewn cymunedau a gweithleoedd. Mae yna enghreifftiau rhagorol o waith a wneir gan rai awdurdodau lleol a chyrff gwirfoddol yn cynhyrchu pecynnau gwybodaeth ar gyfer teuluoedd mudol a thaflenni sy’n chwalu mythau ar gyfer cymunedau lleol.

4.20 p.m.

There are 25 recommendations for the Welsh Assembly Government to consider, and I am pleased that Brian Gibbons, the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, has accepted all but one of the recommendations, either wholly or in part. I thank him for that.

Mae 25 o argymhellion i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eu hystyried, ac yr wyf yn falch fod Brian Gibbons, y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol, wedi derbyn pob argymhelliad ond un, un ai’n llwyr ynteu’n rhannol. Yr wyf yn diolch iddo am hynny.

The committee found that much of the evidence that we received kept returning to the issue of communication. Time and again, we heard that, unless migrant workers could understand what was being offered, the information that was available became less effective. Although we often found these resources to be the poor relations in terms of bidding and funding, those that are currently on offer need to be used well, as they often have an immediate impact on the lives of migrant workers and their families. If given the opportunity, migrant workers and their families will be as equipped as anybody else to deal with issues. I will return to that later.

Darganfu’r pwyllgor fod llawer o’r dystiolaeth a gawsom yn dychwelyd yn gyson at fater cyfathrebu. Dro ar ôl tro, clywsom os na allai gweithwyr mudol ddeall yr hyn a oedd yn cael ei gynnig fod yr wybodaeth a oedd ar gael yn mynd yn llai effeithiol. Er inni ddarganfod mai’r adnoddau hyn oedd yn ddioddef o ran ceisiadau ac ariannu, mae angen i’r rheiny sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd gael eu defnyddio’n dda, gan eu bod yn cael effaith uniongyrchol yn aml ar fywydau gweithwyr mudol a’u teuluoedd. Os cânt y cyfle, bydd gan weithwyr mudol a’u teuluoedd gystal cyfarpar ag unrhyw un arall i ddelio â materion. Dychwelaf at hynny’n ddiweddarach.

I am pleased that the Assembly Government has accepted most of the recommendations, but, I press you, Minister, regarding timescales and implementation. The Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to agree to a voluntary code of conduct on the recruitment and employment of migrant workers is welcome. In the course of our inquiry, we heard evidence of migrant workers suffering from illegal practices, and they were sometimes exploited because they were unaware of their rights. We also heard evidence of migrant workers being employed under conditions that, while not illegal, were at best undesirable. These included working long hours, a lack of guaranteed work and having deductions made from their pay for

Yr wyf yn falch fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi derbyn y rhan fwyaf o’r argymhellion, ond pwysaf arnoch, Weinidog, ynglŷn ag amserlenni a gweithredu. Croesewir ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gytuno â chod ymddygiad gwirfoddol ar recriwtio a chyflogi gweithwyr mudol. Yn ystod ein hymchwiliad, clywsom dystiolaeth am weithwyr mudol yn dioddef arferion anghyfreithlon, a bod pobl yn camfanteisio arnynt weithiau oherwydd nad oeddent yn ymwybodol o’u hawliau. Clywsom dystiolaeth hefyd am weithwyr mudol yn cael eu cyflogi dan amodau a oedd, er nad yn anghyfreithlon, yn annymunol. Yr oedd y rhain yn cynnwys gweithio oriau hir, prinder gwaith gwarantedig a thynnu arian o’u cyflog

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things such as accommodation. am bethau megis llety.

I believe that a voluntary code of conduct on the recruitment and employment of migrant workers could have a huge impact on raising employment conditions above the legal minimums. I should add that this is not because I naively believe that unscrupulous employers will ignore this code. Rather, I believe that if signatories to this code promote themselves as responsible employers of migrant workers, they can gain a recruiting advantage over their unscrupulous competitors.

Credaf y gallai cod ymddygiad gwirfoddol ar recriwtio a chyflogi gweithwyr mudol gael effaith enfawr ar godi amodau gwaith uwchlaw’r lleiafswm cyfreithiol. Dylwn ychwanegu bod hynny nid am fy mod yn credu’n ddiniwed y bydd cyflogwyr diegwyddor yn anwybyddu’r cod hwn. Yn hytrach, credaf os bydd llofnodwyr y cod hwn yn hyrwyddo’u hunain fel cyflogwyr cyfrifol ar gyfer gweithwyr mudol y gallant ennill y blaen o ran recriwtio o’u cymharu â’u cystadleuwyr diegwyddor.

Minister, can you outline whether the Government will actively promote public awareness of this voluntary code of conduct, and those signing up to the code? How will employers be encouraged to join?

Weinidog, a allwch amlinellu a fydd y Llywodraeth yn mynd at i hyrwyddo ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus o’r cod ymddygiad gwirfoddol hwn, a’r rheiny sy’n ymrwymo i’r cod? Sut y caiff cyflogwyr eu hannog i ymuno?

I welcome the Government’s commitment to promoting the positive contributions and achievements of migrant workers in Wales, particularly given some of the myths that are still screaming around in the media. Contrary to explosive headlines that immigrants bring more crime, all the evidence received in our inquiry indicated that migrant workers are no more likely to be the perpetrators, or indeed the victims, of crime than any other UK citizen.

Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i hyrwyddo cyfraniadau a chyflawniadau cadarnhaol gan weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru, yn arbennig o gofio rhai o’r mythau sy’n dal i gael eu sgrechian yn y cyfryngau. Yn wahanol i’r penawdau ffrwydrol fod mewnfudwyr yn achosi mwy o droseddu, dangosodd yr holl dystiolaeth a gawsom yn ein hymchwiliad nad yw gweithwyr mudol, o’u cymharu ag unrhyw ddinesydd arall yn y DU, yn fwy tebygol o gyflawni troseddau, nac yn fwy tebygol o ddioddef troseddau.

The evidence of our inquiry indicated that migrant workers in Wales have created new businesses and boosted our economy; in these times of financial upheaval, we should be grateful for their presence, and we should celebrate Wales’s long history of migration and diversity. We must take every opportunity to continue to destroy these myths, unfounded as they are, that circulate around migrant workers.

Dangosodd tystiolaeth ein hymchwiliad fod gweithwyr mudol yng Nghymru wedi creu busnesau newydd ac wedi hybu ein heconomi; yn ystod y cyfnod hwn o gyffro ariannol, dylem fod yn ddiolchgar am eu presenoldeb, a dylem ddathlu’r hanes hir o ymfudo ac amrywiaeth sydd yng Nghymru. Dylem ddal ar bob cyfle i barhau i chwalu’r mythau hyn, rhai di-sail ydynt, sy’n cylchredeg o gwmpas gweithwyr mudol.

A lot of the issues that were dealt with during the inquiry are not devolved. As a result of the recommendations, I am pleased that the Welsh Assembly Government has agreed to open dialogue with the UK Government on a number of these issues. One of them is to allow migrant workers from the A8 and A2 EU member states to have similar benefits

Mae nifer o’r materion yr ymdriniwyd â hwy yn ystod yr ymchwiliad heb eu datganoli. O ganlyniad i’r argymhellion, yr wyf yn falch fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi cytuno i gychwyn deialog gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar nifer o’r materion hyn. Un ohonynt yw caniatáu i weithwyr mudol o aelod-wladwriaethau A8 ac A2 yr UE gael

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and support as workers from European economic area member states. Such a change could have huge benefits for migrant workers currently afraid to raise a complaint about exploitation in their workplace, because they fear that if they are sacked, they will be made destitute as a result. I also welcome the commitment to enter into dialogue with the UK Government over expanding the remit of the Gangmasters’ Licensing Authority and the establishment of a fair employment commission. Could the Minister provide a timescale for this dialogue and regular updates on progress?

manteision a chefnogaeth sy’n debyg i’r hyn a gaiff gweithwyr o aelod-wladwriaethau ardal economaidd Ewrop. Gallai newid o’r fath fod o fudd enfawr i weithwyr mudol sydd, ar hyn o bryd, yn ofni lleisio cwyn am gamfanteisio yn eu gweithle, oherwydd eu bod yn ofni, os cânt eu diswyddo, y byddant yn ddiymgeledd o ganlyniad. Croesawaf hefyd yr ymrwymiad i ddechrau deialog gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar ehangu cylch gwaith yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau a sefydlu comisiwn cyflogi teg. A allai’r Gweinidog roi amserlen ar gyfer y deialog hwn a diweddariadau cyson am y cynnydd?

I now turn to some of the recommendations that are accepted in part, and I ask for clarification as to why this is. For example, regarding the establishment of a multilingual website, with links to information on local services in particular parts of Wales, the Government has stated that it accepts this recommendation in part, and then it has gone on to detail information that will be provided in a revised ‘Welcome to Wales’ pack. I value the information contained in this pack, and welcome the fact that it is being revised to include information specific to particular groups of migrants, asylum seekers and refugees. Unfortunately, many people who gave evidence have not heard of these packs, and that is a worrying trend.

Trof yn awr at rai o’r argymhellion sydd wedi’u derbyn yn rhannol, a gofynnaf am eglurhad am hynny. Er enghraifft, ynglŷn â sefydlu gwefan amlieithog, gyda dolenni i wybodaeth am wasanaethau lleol mewn rhannau neilltuol o Gymru, mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dweud ei bod yn derbyn yr argymhelliad hwn yn rhannol, ac yna aeth ymlaen i fanylu ar wybodaeth a gaiff ei darparu mewn pecyn diwygiedig ‘Croeso i Gymru’. Gwerthfawrogaf yr wybodaeth sydd yn y pecyn hwn, a chroesawaf y ffaith ei bod yn cael ei diweddaru i gynnwys gwybodaeth benodol ar gyfer grwpiau arbennig o fewnfudwyr, ceiswyr lloches a ffoaduriaid. Gwaetha’r modd, mae nifer o’r bobl a roddodd dystiolaeth heb glywed am y pecynnau hyn, tuedd sy’n peri gofid.

However, I believe that the ‘Welcome to Wales’ pack would be complimented by an interactive website, which could signpost readers to information on local services in their area. Therefore, Minister, will you indicate how the Welsh Assembly Government will address this need to more effectively signpost migrant workers to local sources of information?

Fodd bynnag, credaf y byddai’r pecyn ‘Croeso i Gymru’ yn cael ei ategu gan wefan ryngweithiol, a fyddai’n cyfeirio darllenwyr at wybodaeth am wasanaethau lleol yn eu hardal. Felly, Weinidog, a ddangoswch sut y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn mynd i’r afael â’r angen hwn i gyfeirio gweithwyr mudol yn well at ffynonellau gwybodaeth lleol?

I will now return to the issue of English-language training and communication. I mentioned earlier that access to information is vital in avoiding a feeling of vulnerability and exploitation among migrant workers. This is another recommendation that you have only agreed to in part. Our recommendation called on the Government to develop a strategy for identifying levels of need for ESOL training—that is, English for speakers of other languages—with clear

Trof yn awr at fater hyfforddi a chyfathrebu drwy gyfrwng yr iaith Saesneg. Crybwyllais yn gynharach fod gallu cael gwybodaeth yn hanfodol er mwyn i weithwyr mudol beidio â theimlo’n agored i niwed a chamfanteisio. Dyma argymhelliad arall y cytunasoch arno’n rhannol yn unig. Galwai ein hargymhelliad ar y Llywodraeth i ddatblygu strategaeth ar nodi lefelau angen ar gyfer hyfforddiant ESOL—hynny yw, Saesneg ar gyfer Siaradwyr Ieithoedd Eraill—gydag amserlenni eglur ar

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timescales for delivering improved training and an associated action plan. You have detailed the remit of the ESOL advisory group, which included establishing a strategic approach on the ongoing development of ESOL provision. However, you have not made a commitment to detail clear timescales or an action plan for the development of ESOL provision. I find this most concerning because, in our inquiry, we heard clear messages that demand for ESOL training is significantly outstripping what is available through local authorities. That was echoed in the findings of Estyn’s July 2008 review of English for speakers of other languages. Given the urgency of this issue, and the fact that we found that this is one of the main issues, I ask you to reconsider your stance, Minister, and to clarify whether you could establish timescales for work to be taken forward on a strategic approach to the provision of ESOL.

gyfer darparu gwell hyfforddiant a chynllun gweithredu cysylltiedig. Yr ydych wedi rhoi manylion am gylch gwaith y grŵp ymgynghorol ESOL, a oedd yn cynnwys sefydlu dull strategol o ddatblygu darpariaeth ESOL barhaus. Fodd bynnag, nid ydych wedi ymrwymo i roi manylion am amserlenni eglur neu gynllun gweithredu ar gyfer datblygu darpariaeth ESOL. Mae hyn yn fy mhoeni’n fawr, oherwydd yn ein hymchwiliad clywsom negeseuon clir fod y galw am hyfforddiant ESOL lawer yn fwy na’r hyn sydd ar gael drwy awdurdodau lleol. Adleisiwyd hynny yn narganfyddiadau adolygiad Estyn, ym mis Gorffennaf 2008, o Saesneg ar gyfer siaradwyr ieithoedd eraill. Yn wyneb y brys yn y mater hwn, a’r ffaith inni weld ei fod yn un o’r prif broblemau, gofynnaf ichi ystyried eich safbwynt, Weinidog, ac egluro a allech sefydlu amserlenni ar gyfer datblygu gwaith ar ddull strategol o ddarparu ESOL.

Our report mentions the use of modern technology and flexible forms of language training. We have heard about, and the report mentions, innovative schemes. Migrant workers’ shifts are often long and erratic and, therefore, they often cannot get to training colleges. We heard about ways in which training is done for migrant workers, fitted around those migrant workers, so that they have full benefit. I hope that you will look at some of those ideas, Minister, and I hope that you will be able to produce them to the ESOL advisory group. I do believe, as I said before, that this is an important issue, if we are to say that we are making a difference.

Mae ein hadroddiad yn crybwyll defnyddio technoleg fodern a dulliau hyblyg o ddysgu iaith. Clywsom am gynlluniau arloesol, ac mae’r adroddiad yn eu crybwyll. Mae sifftau gweithwyr mudol yn aml yn hir ac yn afreolaidd, ac yn aml, felly, ni allant fynd i goleg hyfforddi. Clywsom am ffyrdd y caiff hyfforddiant ei gyflwyno i weithwyr mudol, ei weddu i anghenion y gweithwyr mudol hynny, er mwyn iddynt gael budd llawn. Gobeithio y byddwch yn ystyried rhai o’r syniadau hynny, Weinidog, a gobeithio y byddwch yn gallu eu cyflwyno i’r grŵp cynghori ESOL. Credaf, fel y dywedais o’r blaen, fod hwn yn fater pwysig, os ydym i ddweud ein bod yn gwneud gwahaniaeth.

In conclusion, I welcome your Government’s response to this report as I believe that it signals the welcome that we accord to others. That is a welcome that defines who we are as a country. You deserve praise and recognition as a Government for your principled commitment to enabling equality of opportunity for migrant workers, their families, the organisations and staff with whom they come into contact, and other people in the communities in which they live and work. I urge you, as a Government, to ensure that these principled commitments are turned into practical realities, and that the recommendations of our report are

I gloi, croesawaf ymateb eich Llywodraeth i’r adroddiad hwn oherwydd credaf ei fod yn arwydd o’r croeso a roddwn i eraill. Mae hwnnw’n groeso sy’n diffinio pwy ydym fel gwlad. Yr ydych yn haeddu canmoliaeth a chydnabyddiaeth fel Llywodraeth am eich ymrwymiad cydwybodol i alluogi cyfle cyfartal i weithwyr mudol, eu teuluoedd, y cyrff a’r staff y deuant i gysylltiad â hwy, a phobl eraill yn y cymunedau lle maent yn byw ac yn gweithio. Fe’ch anogaf, fel Llywodraeth, i sicrhau bod yr ymrwymiadau egwyddorol hyn yn cael eu troi’n realiti ymarferol, a bod argymhellion ein hadroddiad yn cael eu gweithredu’n

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implemented effectively. After all, it is not just what we say, but what we do that defines us. I commend this report to the Assembly.

effeithiol. Wedi’r cyfan, nid yn unig yr hyn a ddywedwn ond yr hyn a wnawn sy’n ein diffinio. Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad hwn i’r Cynulliad.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): First, I thank the committee for its report. As Ann said, at the time, when the report was commissioned, this was a very tricky area. I think that the value of the report is that all of the recommendations except one, which we felt would be more appropriately dealt with by the Welsh Local Government Association, have been accepted in full or in part.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Yn gyntaf, diolchaf i’r pwyllgor am ei adroddiad. Fel y dywedodd Ann, pan gafodd yr adroddiad ei gomisiynu yr oedd hwn yn faes anodd. Credaf mai gwerth yr adroddiad yw bod yr argymhellion i gyd ac eithrio un, y teimlem y gallai Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ymdrin ag ef yn well, wedi eu derbyn yn llawn neu’n rhannol.

I may need to make a declaration of interest, because more than 30 years ago I came to Wales as a migrant worker, as many other members of my family had done before me and have done since. Indeed, members of my family live all over the United States and in the four corners of the globe. I visited some of my family in the United States quite recently and I had an opportunity to visit Ellis island, off the tip of Manhattan. Twelve million people were processed at Ellis island up until about 1950 and the antecedents of over 40 per cent of the current population of the United States came through there. Visiting Ellis island was a moving experience. It has been described as the island of hope for those who were accepted into the United States and as the island of tears for those who were turned away.

Hwyrach fod angen imi ddatgan buddiant, oherwydd dros 30 mlynedd yn ôl deuthum i Gymru fel gweithiwr mudol, fel y gwnaeth nifer o aelodau eraill fy nheulu o’m blaen ac sydd wedi gwneud ers hynny. Yn wir, mae aelodau o’m teulu yn byw ar hyd ac ar led yr Unol Daleithiau ac ym mhedwar ban byd. Ymwelais â rhai aelodau o’m teulu yn yr Unol Daleithiau yn lled ddiweddar, a chefais gyfle i ymweld ag Ellis island, ar benrhyn Manhattan. Cafodd deuddeg miliwn o bobl eu prosesu ar Ellis island hyd at oddeutu 1950, a daeth rhagflaenwyr dros 40 y cant o boblogaeth bresennol yr Unol Daleithiau drwy’r fan honno. Yr oedd ymweld ag Ellis island yn brofiad gwefreiddiol. Fe’i disgrifiwyd yn ynys gobaith i’r rheiny a gafodd eu derbyn i’r Unol Daleithiau, ac yn ynys dagrau i’r rheiny a gafodd eu troi ymaith.

4.30 p.m.

Even 100 years ago, when the Ellis island immigration station was operating at maximum capacity, migrants from all parts of Europe were treated with what seems to be a fair amount of respect. Equally, as part of the processing facilities, interpreters were available. What really surprised me when I visited was that the people who turned up who were sick or ill were given a period to recuperate in specially designed hospitals on Ellis island so that, before a decision was made on whether to send them home, they had a chance to present themselves as physically fit. Often, those people had travelled thousands of miles in extremely difficult and harrowing conditions. That

Hyd yn oed 100 mlynedd yn ôl, pan oedd canolfan mewnfudo Ellis island yn gweithio i’r eithaf, byddai ymfudwyr o bob rhan o Ewrop yn cael eu trin, i bob golwg, gyda chryn barch. Yn yr un modd, fel rhan o’r cyfleusterau prosesu, yr oedd cyfieithwyr ar gael. Yr hyn a’m synnodd pan ymwelais oedd bod y bobl a fyddai’n cyrraedd ac a oedd yn wael neu’n sâl yn cael cyfnod i wella mewn ysbytai wedi’u cynllunio’n arbennig ar Ellis island. Felly, cyn penderfynu a ddylid eu hanfon adref neu beidio, yr oedd cyfle iddynt ddangos eu bod yn gorfforol iach. Byddai’r bobl hynny yn aml wedi teithio miloedd o filltiroedd dan amgylchiadau eithriadol o anodd a dirdynnol. Mae’r profiad

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moving experience has shown that migrant workers, asylum seekers and refugees, who were the people who went through the Ellis island immigration station, contributed to building a massive nation in the United States. So many of the people who contributed to the United States came through Ellis island. Therefore, to return to the point that Ann made at the beginning of her contribution, migrants play a key role in building nations, and we cannot underestimate the positive influence that they have on those countries. We need to be at the forefront of that.

emosiynol hwnnw wedi dangos bod gweithwyr mudol, ceiswyr lloches a ffoaduriaid, sef y bobl a aeth drwy ganolfan mewnfudo Ellis island, wedi cyfrannu at adeiladu cenedl enfawr yn yr Unol Daleithiau. Drwy Ellis island y daeth cynifer o’r bobl a gyfrannodd at yr Unol Daleithiau. Felly, i ddychwelyd at y pwynt a wnaeth Ann ar ddechrau ei chyfraniad, mae gan ymfudwyr rôl allweddol mewn adeiladu cenhedloedd, ac ni allwn ddibrisio’r dylanwad cadarnhaol a gânt ar y gwledydd hynny. Mae angen inni fod ar flaen y gad yn hynny.

Sadly, a minority of migrant workers are unscrupulously exploited by employers. That is clearly bad for Wales and for the migrant workers, but it also reflects badly on conscientious employers, and I am sure that employers are making the same calls as us with regard to trying to root out that bad practice. We know from our surveys and from those by the Equality and Human Rights Commission that Welsh people are positively disposed towards people of a different background coming to settle in their community. However, there are concerns among the Welsh public about migration, and we are all conscious that there are sinister, destructive political forces out there that would like to exploit that concern, and that concern may get worse because of the economic recession. We really need reports like this and clear messages going out from the National Assembly, from across all political parties, saying that we will have no truck with that type of divisive, destructive activity in Wales.

Yn anffodus, camfanteisir yn ddiegwyddor ar leiafrif o weithwyr mudol gan gyflogwyr. Mae hynny’n amlwg yn ddrwg i Gymru ac i’r gweithwyr mudol, ond mae’n adlewyrchu’n wael hefyd ar gyflogwyr cydwybodol, ac yr wyf yn siŵr bod cyflogwyr, fel ninnau, yn galw am ddileu’r arfer gael hwnnw. Gwyddom o’n harolygon ac o’r rheiny y mae’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol wedi’u cynnal fod gan bobl Cymru agwedd gadarnhaol at bobl o wahanol gefndir yn dod i ymgartrefu yn eu cymuned. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru’n poeni am ymfudo, a gwyddom i gyd fod grymoedd gwleidyddol sinistr a dinistriol yn y byd mawr a fyddai’n hoffi camfanteisio ar y pryder hwnnw, ac mae’n bosibl y bydd y pryder hwnnw’n gwaethygu yn sgil y dirwasgiad economaidd. Mae arnom wir angen adroddiadau fel hyn a negeseuon clir gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gan bob plaid wleidyddol, yn dweud nad ydym yn barod i oddef y math hwnnw o weithgarwch dinistriol, ymrannol yng Nghymru.

A key forum for addressing many of the recommendations and for responding to the points that Ann raised will be the migrants forum, which has been established and has met on several occasions, bringing together a diverse range of representatives, including migrant workers. I chair that forum. Many of the issues that Ann has asked about, including the issue of benefit uptake, are being dealt with. We are considering how best to bring that forward as part of the forum’s work. We do not want to go through the motions of making representations; we want to make representations in a way that we think will be effective.

Fforwm allweddol i fynd i’r afael â nifer o’r argymhellion ac i ymateb i’r pwyntiau a gododd Ann fydd y fforwm ymfudwyr, sydd wedi’i sefydlu ac sydd wedi cyfarfod droeon, gan ddod ynghyd ag ystod amrywiol o gynrychiolwyr, gan gynnwys gweithwyr mudol. Fi yw cadeirydd y fforwm hwnnw. Mae nifer o’r materion y mae Ann wedi holi amdanynt, gan gynnwys mater cael budd-daliadau, yn cael sylw. Yr ydym yn ystyried sut orau i ddwyn hynny ymlaen fel rhan o waith y fforwm. Nid ydym am gyflwyno sylwadau er mwyn cyflwyno sylwadau; yr ydym am gyflwyno sylwadau mewn ffordd a gredwn a fydd yn effeithiol.

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You asked about the code of conduct for employment. We have already started discussions with employers and trade union representatives, including those from Unite, GMB and Unison. Due to the multiparty nature of the contributors, we expect that work to produce a constructive document. We would see its promotion and development as a key part of the wider community cohesion strategy. The consultation on this has just ended.

Yr oeddech yn holi am y cod ymddygiad ar gyfer cyflogaeth. Yr ydym eisoes wedi cychwyn trafodaethau gyda chyflogwyr a chynrychiolwyr undebau llafur, gan gynnwys y rheiny o Unite, GMB ac Unsain. Oherwydd bod y cyfranwyr yn cynrychioli nifer o agweddau, disgwyliwn i’r gwaith gynhyrchu dogfen adeiladol. Byddem yn gweld ei hybu a’i ddatblygu fel rhan o strategaeth gydlynu ehangach ar gyfer y gymuned. Mae’r ymgynghori ar hyn newydd ddod i ben.

You mentioned the importance of English for speakers of other languages courses, and you are right to highlight that. Learning English is probably one of the most fundamental challenges that migrant workers face. It is important for them but, equally, in several occupations, it is important for health and safety and so forth. We have done considerable research on ESOL, and Estyn has also done work on what is going on in relation to ESOL. I understand that the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills has set up an advisory group to make progress in this area. The sum of £8 million is being provided for ESOL support, either directly through Assembly Government funding or through local authorities, and a key delivery mechanism is the Wales union learning fund. One of the reasons why it is particularly important is that it is able to deliver ESOL programmes to workers, hopefully, in many cases, in their workplace. That, in some respects, addresses the concerns that you raised about problems with access because of inconvenient hours and so forth. In addition, support has been given to five centres across Wales in conjunction with the Wales union learning fund in Flintshire, Wrexham and so forth. It is hoped that that will make access easier.

Crybwyllwyd pwysigrwydd cyrsiau Saesneg i ddysgwyr, ac yr ydym yn iawn i dynnu sylw at hynny. Mae’n siŵr mai dysgu’r Saesneg yw un o’r heriau mwyaf sylfaenol sy’n wynebu gweithwyr mudol. Mae’n bwysig iddynt hwy, ond hefyd mewn amrywiol swyddi mae’n bwysig ar gyfer iechyd a diogelwch ac ati. Yr ydym wedi gwneud cryn waith ymchwil ar ESOL, ac mae Estyn hefyd wedi gwneud gwaith ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yng nghyswllt ESOL. Deallaf fod yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau wedi sefydlu grŵp ymgynghorol i gamu ymlaen yn y maes hwn. Darperir £8 miliwn i gefnogi ESOL, naill ai’n uniongyrchol drwy gyllid Llywodraeth y Cynulliad neu drwy awdurdodau lleol, ac un mecanwaith darparu allweddol yw cronfa ddysgu undebau Cymru. Un o’r rhesymau pam y mae’n arbennig o bwysig yw ei bod yn gallu darparu rhaglenni ESOL, a hynny gobeithio, mewn amryw o achosion, yn eu gweithle. I ryw raddau, mae hynny’n mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon a godwyd gennych ynglŷn â phroblemau mynediad oherwydd oriau anhwylus, ac ati. Yn ogystal â hyn, mae cymorth wedi’i roi i bum canolfan ar draws Cymru ar y cyd â chronfa ddysgu undebau Cymru yn sir y Fflint, yn Wrecsam ac ati. Gobeithio y bydd hynny’n hwyluso mynediad.

We are developing the ‘Welcome to Wales Pack’. Ann asked particular questions about partial acceptance. We feel that the best way forward is to use the ‘Welcome to Wales Pack’ as the key portal for developing information for people who come to work in Wales and to make it available here in Wales and, hopefully, in British embassies. As time goes on, and as resources permit, we hope to be able to develop the functionality of the website, but using ‘Welcome to Wales’ as the

Yr ydym yn datblygu’r ‘Pecyn Croeso i Gymru’. Gofynnodd Ann gwestiynau penodol ynglŷn â derbyn yn rhannol. Teimlwn mai’r ffordd orau ymlaen yw defnyddio’r ‘Pecyn Croeso i Gymru’ fel prif borth er mwyn datblygu gwybodaeth i bobl sy’n dod i Gymru i weithio a’i ddarparu yma yng Nghymru, ac yn llysgenadaethau Prydain, gobeithio. Wrth i amser fynd heibio, a phan fydd adnoddau ar gael, gobeithiwn allu datblygu swyddogaethau’r wefan, ond

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portal to the information and the signposting that is available.

gan ddefnyddio ‘Croeso i Gymru’ fel y porth at y wybodaeth a’r cymorth cyfeirio sydd ar gael.

The final point, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer—and I know that time is pressing—is about the reference to interpretation services. We have recently completed an important research project on that, and within the next couple of months, we hope to bring forward constructive proposals to put translation services on a more solid footing here in Wales. This is something that has been requested for many years, and, at last, on the basis of that activity, we should be able to see a positive result in response to the challenges laid out in your committee’s report.

Mae pwynt olaf, os caf, Ddirprwy Lywydd—a gwn fod amser yn brin—yn ymwneud â’r cyfeiriad at wasanaethau cyfieithu. Yr ydym wedi cwblhau prosiect ymchwil pwysig ar hynny’n ddiweddar, ac o fewn yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf gobeithiwn ddwyn ymlaen gynigion adeiladol i roi gwasanaethau cyfieithu ar seiliau mwy cadarn yma yng Nghymru. Mae pobl wedi bod yn gofyn am hyn ers blynyddoedd lawer, ac o’r diwedd, ar sail y gweithgarwch hwnnw, dylem allu gweld canlyniad cadarnhaol i ymateb i’r heriau sydd yn adroddiad eich pwyllgor.

Mark Isherwood: Although I am no longer a member of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, I was when evidence was collected for this report, and I fully endorse its recommendations. The key themes focused in particular on improving access to information for migrant workers and their families, improving access to language classes, improving conditions, and on promoting good relations between migrant workers and their families and the communities in which they live and work, while acknowledging, as the report does, the fact that the definition of ‘migrant workers’ is separate to that for ‘asylum seekers’ and ‘refugees’. We must work to dispel the myths put out by the modern day Nazis—the national socialists who put on suits and false smiles as they seek electoral support to enslave us all by scapegoating the minorities within.

Mark Isherwood: Er nad wyf bellach yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, yr oeddwn yn aelod pan gasglwyd y dystiolaeth ar gyfer yr adroddiad hwn, ac yr wyf yn cymeradwyo’i argymhellion yn llwyr. Yr oedd y themâu allweddol yn canolbwyntio’n benodol ar wella’r llwybr at wybodaeth i weithwyr mudol a’u teuluoedd, gwella’r llwybr at ddosbarthiadau iaith, gwella amodau a hybu perthynas dda rhwng gweithwyr mudol a’u teuluoedd a’r cymunedau lle maent yn byw ac yn gweithio, gan gydnabod ar yr un pryd, fel y mae’r adroddiad yn ei wneud, y ffaith fod ‘gweithwyr mudol’ yn cael eu diffinio’n wahanol i ‘geiswyr lloches’ a ‘ffoaduriaid’. Rhaid inni weithio i chwalu’r mythau sy’n cael eu lledaenu gan Natsïaid yr oes hon—y sosialwyr cenedlaethol sy’n gwisgo siwtiau ac yn ffugwenu wrth geisio cefnogaeth etholiadol i’n gwneud i gyd yn gaeth drwy greu bychod dihangol o’r lleiafrifoedd yn ein plith.

The Polish-Welsh Mutual Association highlighted its concern about cross-border criminality and the ability of convicted criminals to enter the UK. It also stated that the UK Government, at the time the borders were opened to Poland, had failed to properly understand the social implications of marketplace movements. These are, therefore, shared concerns for all British communities, wherever they come from, and it has nothing to do with where they came from. They also noted the fact that migrants are underpinning businesses with a range of

Tynnodd Cyd-gymdeithas Pwyliaid Cymru sylw at ei phryder am droseddu ar draws ffiniau a bod troseddwyr a gafwyd yn euog yn gallu dod i mewn i’r DU. Dywedodd hefyd nad oedd Llywodraeth y DU, pan agorwyd y ffiniau i Wlad Pwyl, wedi deall yn iawn oblygiadau cymdeithasol pobl yn symud o gwmpas yn y farchnad. Felly, mae’r rhain yn bethau y mae pob cymuned ym Mhrydain yn poeni amdanynt, ni waeth o ble y dônt, ac nid oes a wnelo o gwbl â’u gwreiddiau. Nodwyd hefyd fod ymfudwyr yn cynnal busnesau drwy ddarparu ystod o

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skills that would otherwise not be available in the labour market.

sgiliau na fyddent ar gael fel arall yn y farchnad lafur.

Diplomatic representatives from the Slovak Republic, Lithuania and Poland stated that the Welsh Government should focus on English language courses, as a grasp of a language helps people to become aware of their rights and know who the proper authorities are.

Dywedodd cynrychiolwyr diplomataidd o’r Weriniaeth Slofac, Lithiwania a Gwlad Pwyl y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ganolbwyntio ar gyrsiau Saesneg, gan fod cael crap ar iaith yn gymorth i bobl fod yn ymwybodol o’u hawliau ac i wybod pwy yw’r awdurdodau priodol.

On the matter of gangmasters, they stated that the problem was not with the law, but with its implementation. The Polish embassy representative noted that it was no longer economically beneficial to work in the UK for less than £8 an hour, and that many people are returning to Poland, as pay levels had improved there. He said that there are now more Poles leaving the UK than arriving, and he added that there are no reliable statistical data on the number of people involved, because there is no obligation to deregister with the Home Office on leaving the UK and because the high cost means that many did not register at all. He also stated that most Poles were treated well, but he added that financial support for communities is sometimes insufficient to meet the needs of new arrivals, particularly with regard to funding for schools and the NHS, because of populations being underestimated.

Ynglŷn â’r meistri gangiau, dywedasant nad y gyfraith oedd y broblem, ond ei gweithredu. Dywedodd cynrychiolydd llysgenhadaeth Gwlad Pwyl nad oedd o fudd economaidd bellach yn y DU i neb ennill llai nag £8 yr awr, a bod llawer o bobl yn dychwelyd i Wlad Pwyl, gan fod cyflogau wedi gwella yno. Dywedodd fod mwy o Bwyliaid yn ymadael â’r DU bellach nag sy’n cyrraedd, ac ychwanegodd nad oes dim data ystadegol dibynadwy ar gael am nifer y bobl dan sylw am nad oes dyletswydd i ddadgofrestru gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref wrth ymadael y DU ac am fod nifer yn peidio â chofrestru o gwbl am ei fod mor gostus. Dywedodd hefyd fod y rhan fwyaf o Bwyliaid yn cael eu trin yn dda, ond ychwanegodd fod cymorth ariannol i gymunedau yn annigonol weithiau i ddiwallu anghenion pobl sy’n cyrraedd o’r newydd, yn enwedig o ran cyllid ar gyfer ysgolion a’r GIG, oherwydd bod poblogaethau’n cael eu tanamcangyfrif.

Citizens Advice reported an increase in the number of cases of migrant worker coming to its bureaux with problems, mainly to do with employment issues, particularly in rural Wales. The Welsh Local Government Association stated that the number of migrants in many areas of Wales has been significantly underestimated, and that without accurate figures and corresponding fair and realistic funding, some authorities could struggle to provide the services that meet the needs and fulfil the rights of migrant workers.

Dywedodd Cyngor ar Bopeth fod cynnydd yn nifer yr achosion o weithwyr mudol sy’n dod i’w swyddfeydd gyda phroblemau, a’r rheiny’n broblemau cyflogaeth yn bennaf, yn enwedig yn y Gymru wledig. Dywedodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fod nifer yr ymfudwyr mewn llawer ardal yng Nghymru wedi ei danamcangyfrif yn sylweddol, a heb ffigurau cywir a chyllid teg a realistig i gyfateb i hynny gallai rhai awdurdodau straffaglu i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau sy’n diwallu anghenion ac yn bodloni hawliau gweithwyr mudol.

4.40 p.m.

In taking evidence in Wrexham, the then divisional police commander said that while the police as an organisation was aware of the expansion of the EU, it is no secret that it was

Wrth dderbyn tystiolaeth yn Wrecsam, dywedodd comander rhanbarthol yr heddlu, er bod yr heddlu fel sefydliad yn ymwybodol bod yr EU wedi ehangu, nad yw’n gyfrinach

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a little surprised by the number of migrant workers that arrived in the area as a consequence. He estimated that the figures were closer to 15,000 than 8,000 within the range normally quoted, and he confirmed that he was fortunate in having a linguist for a police constable who was able to learn Polish ‘in a frighteningly quick time’, setting an example of good practice for everywhere.

fod yr heddlu’n synnu braidd at nifer y gweithwyr mudol a oedd wedi cyrraedd yr ardal yn sgil hynny. Amcangyfrifai fod y ffigurau’n nes at 15,000 nag at 8,000 o fewn yr ystod sydd fel rheol yn cael ei dyfynnu, a chadarnhaodd ei fod yn ffodus o gael ieithydd o gwnstabl a oedd yn gallu dysgu Pwyleg ‘mewn amser dychrynllyd o gyflym’, gan osod esiampl ar gyfer arfer da i bob man.

In terms of Flintshire and the issue of migrant workers on the Deeside strip, he commended the role of his diversity officer in working with the community safety partnership to start a project called ‘Open Door’, which provides information and guidance using interpreters. He also rightly emphasised that the disturbances in Wrexham in 2003 had nothing to do with migrant workers. He added that he had arranged some basic Polish language skills for training front-line staff, because the ability to communicate with people allays tensions that may arise in some areas where a service is not available. However, he said that services do not come without a cost, and he noted that in 2002-03 he spent £5,000 on interpreters’ fees but that last year this had risen to in excess of £100,000.

O ran Sir y Fflint a mater gweithwyr mudol ar lain Glannau Dyfrdwy, yr oedd yn canmol rôl ei swyddog amrywiaeth a fu’n gweithio gyda’r bartneriaeth diogelwch cymunedol i ddechrau prosiect a elwir yn ‘Ddrws Agored’. Mae hwnnw’n darparu gwybodaeth ac arweiniad drwy ddefnyddio cyfieithwyr. Pwysleisiodd hefyd, a hynny’n gwbl gywir, nad oedd a wnelo’r trafferthion yn Wrecsam yn 2003 ddim o gwbl â gweithwyr mudol. Ychwanegodd iddo drefnu ychydig hyfforddiant i ddysgu Pwyleg sylfaenol i’r staff rheng flaen oherwydd bod gallu cyfathrebu â phobl bob amser yn lleddfu tensiynau a all godi mewn rhai ardaloedd lle nad oes gwasanaeth ar gael. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd nad yw’r gwasanaethau’n rhad, gan nodi iddo wario £5,000 ar ffioedd cyfieithwyr yn 2002-03 ond bod hynny wedi codi i dros £100,000 y llynedd.

I will finish by quoting Flintshire County Council, who said that services need to know about predictions of what the population will be like in the future, what changes there will be with possible future enlargement of the EU and what the trends will be in terms of the people who will settle. If we are going to be proactive, we need the facts and we need to work and plan together.

Terfynaf drwy ddyfynnu Cyngor Sir y Fflint, a ddywedodd fod angen i wasanaethau wybod am ragfynegiadau o’r boblogaeth yn y dyfodol, pa newidiadau a ddaw yn sgil y posibilrwydd o ehangu’r EU yn y dyfodol, a beth fydd y tueddiadau o ran y bobl a fydd yn ymgartrefu yma. I fod yn rhagweithiol, mae arnom angen y ffeithiau, ac mae angen inni weithio a chynllunio gyda’n gilydd.

Bethan Jenkins: I also wish to thank the members of the committee that worked on this inquiry, especially Ann Jones as Chair. I no longer sit on the Committee for Equality of Opportunity, but I immensely enjoyed the work that we carried out, especially as we went out into the communities to see the work that was being done in Wrexham with migrant workers. Despite the fact that councils struggled financially on occasions with support for migrant workers, the devotion that they showed in the work that they do in Llanelli, Merthyr and Wrexham especially is testament to the work that they

Bethan Jenkins: Yr wyf fi hefyd am ddiolch i aelodau’r pwyllgor a fu’n gweithio ar yr ymchwiliad hwn, yn enwedig i Ann Jones, y Cadeirydd. Nid wyf yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal bellach, ond mwynheais yn fawr y gwaith a wnaethom, yn enwedig gan inni fynd allan i’r cymunedau i weld y gwaith a oedd yn cael ei wneud yn Wrecsam gyda gweithwyr mudol. Er bod cynghorau’n straffaglu’n ariannol ar brydiau i ddarparu cymorth i weithwyr mudol, yr oedd eu hymroddiad i’r gwaith a wnânt yn Llanelli, ym Merthyr ac yn Wrecsam yn benodol yn brawf o’r gwaith y maent yn ei wneud ar lawr

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do on the ground, and they deserve to be congratulated for that work.

gwlad, ac maent yn haeddu eu llongyfarch am y gwaith hwnnw.

I wish to echo some of what has already been said, in that I believe that one of the main issues is the language barrier. When people enter Wales and the UK, they find that they cannot access simple services such as benefits and housing services because they cannot speak the language. So, I urge the Minister to look further into ESOL provision because it would help front-line services immensely. I visited a scheme at Swansea University where they are providing MP3 recorders for newly-arrived migrant workers to learn English as they go about their everyday lives, as opposed to having to attend lessons. This is something new and innovative that could be rolled out throughout Wales, because MP3 players do not cost that much anymore.

Dymunaf ategu rhywfaint o’r hyn a ddywedwyd eisoes, sef fy mod yn credu mai un o’r prif broblemau yw’r rhwystr iaith. Pan fydd pobl yn cyrraedd Cymru a’r DU, byddant yn gweld na allant gael gwasanaethau syml megis gwasanaethau budd-daliadau a gwasanaethau tai oherwydd na allant siarad yr iaith. Felly, pwysaf ar y Gweinidog i edrych eto ar y ddarpariaeth ESOL oherwydd byddai’n gymorth enfawr i wasanaethau’r rheng flaen. Ymwelais â chynllun ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe lle maent yn darparu peiriannau recordio MP3 i weithwyr mudol sydd newydd gyrraedd i ddysgu Saesneg wrth iddynt fyw eu bywyd beunyddiol, yn hytrach na’i bod yn rhaid iddynt fynd i wersi. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth newydd ac arloesol y gellid ei ledaenu ar draws Cymru, oherwydd nid yw peiriannau MP3 mor ddrud â hynny erbyn hyn.

Another issue that we found was, despite their effectiveness, many people did not know about the welcome packs and many people thought the way that they were written was not as relevant as it could be to migrant workers arriving in Wales.

Problem arall a welsom oedd bod nifer o bobl heb wybod am y pecynnau croeso, a theimlai nifer o bobl nad oedd y ffordd yr oeddent wedi’u hysgrifennu mor berthnasol ag y gallai fod i weithwyr mudol sy’n cyrraedd Cymru.

Another element of our discussions in the committee was educational opportunities for migrant workers. In Wrexham, we were told that brain surgeons were working in factories putting things into boxes, which was a dreadful use of these people’s time. So, I urge you to look into the effectiveness of the UK National Recognition Information Centre so that people can access those databases. It is often expensive for organisations to utilise those resources, ranging from £400 to £5,000, so perhaps there is a way for them to collectively access those databases and find out how their qualifications will match up to qualifications in Wales.

Elfen arall o’n trafodaethau yn y pwyllgor oedd cyfleoedd addysgol i weithwyr mudol. Yn Wrecsam, dywedwyd wrthym fod llawfeddygon yr ymennydd yn gweithio mewn ffatrïoedd yn llenwi blychau, a bod hynny’n ffordd ofnadwy o ddefnyddio amser y bobl hyn. Felly, pwysaf arnoch i edrych ar effeithiolrwydd Canolfan Gwybodaeth Adnabod Genedlaethol y DU er mwyn i bobl allu mynd at y cronfeydd data hynny. Mae’n aml yn ddrud i sefydliadau ddefnyddio’r adnoddau hynny, a’u pris yn amrywio rhwng £400 a £5,000. Felly, efallai fod lle iddynt fynd at y cronfeydd data hynny ar y cyd a chael gwybod sut y bydd eu cymwysterau’n cyfateb i gymwysterau yng Nghymru.

Another suggestion that I wish to endorse is the establishment of a fair employment commission. The Gangmasters Licensing Authority showed support for this idea, although it was a suggestion from Citizens Advice to bring together the four main statutory authorities that look into the rights

Awgrym arall y dymunaf ei ategu yw’r awgrym i sefydlu comisiwn cyflogaeth deg. Yr oedd yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau yn cefnogi’r syniad hwn, er mai awgrym Cyngor ar Bopeth oedd dwyn ynghyd y pedwar prif awdurdod statudol i ymchwilio i hawliau gweithwyr a gweithwyr

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of workers and support workers, because, at the moment, coverage in that area is quite sporadic. A fair employment commission could ensure basic employment rights, individual workers’ rights and impose sanctions on persistently exploitative employers, therefore, I urge you to talk to your UK counterparts about this issue.

cefnogi, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd darniog yw’r ymdriniaeth yn y maes hwnnw. Gallai comisiwn cyflogaeth deg sicrhau hawliau cyflogaeth sylfaenol, hawliau gweithwyr unigol a rhoi cosbau ar gyflogwyr sy’n camfanteisio’n gyson. Felly, yr wyf yn eich annog i siarad â’ch swyddogion cyfatebol yn y DU am y mater hwn.

Another matter that has been touched upon is the benefits system. If migrant workers are going to complain about their employer, they live in fear that their benefits will be taken from them and that they will be unable to access benefits for another year. That matter needs to be looked at seriously, so that the workers can access the same benefits as others working in the EU.

Mater arall a grybwyllwyd yw’r system budd-daliadau. Os bydd gweithwyr mudol am gwyno am eu cyflogwr, maent yn byw mewn ofn y cymerir eu budd-daliadau oddi arnynt ac na fedrant gael budd-daliadau am flwyddyn arall. Rhaid edrych o ddifrif ar y mater hwn, fel y gall y gweithwyr gael yr un budd-daliadau ag eraill sy’n gweithio yn yr UE.

A main element of this is to do with stereotypes and the fact that, as you touched upon earlier, Minister, some political parties will take advantage of the fact that migrant workers are coming to Wales. It is not particularly helpful that some politicians make declarations such as ‘British jobs for British workers’, when we are living in the EU and EU laws mean that people can move from one country to another for work. We need to raise more awareness and organise positive events in Wales to show that migrant workers are welcome in Wales and have a role to play. If we were to move abroad for work, we would expect the same welcome.

Mae prif elfen hyn yn ymwneud â stereoteipio, a’r ffaith yw, fel y crybwyllasoch yn gynharach, Weinidog, y bydd rhai pleidiau gwleidyddol yn manteisio ar y ffaith fod gweithwyr mudol yn dod i Gymru. Nid yw’n arbennig o fuddiol fod rhai gwleidyddion yn gwneud datganiadau megis ‘swyddi ym Mhrydain i weithwyr o Brydain’, a ninnau’n byw yn yr UE a chyfreithiau’r UE yn golygu y gall pobl symud o’r naill wlad i’r llall i weithio. Rhaid inni gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth a threfnu digwyddiadau cadarnhaol yng Nghymru i ddangos bod croeso i weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru a bod ganddynt ran i’w chwarae. Petaem yn symud dramor i weithio, byddem yn disgwyl yr un croeso.

Jonathan Morgan: As a new member of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, I will start by congratulating colleagues on an extremely thorough report, which deals with a variety of issues in a sensitive way. Ann Jones rightly pointed out some of the potential difficulties of doing this sort of work, recognising that the work had to be done in a way that defined the issues that migrant workers face and those where we as a devolved institution can have the biggest impact. For a country that has a proud history of migrant workers settling here, we struggle to understand the barriers that many migrant workers face. Some of our constituents, to be perfectly honest, do not understand the difference between migrant workers, refugees and illegal immigrants. There is a lack of

Jonathan Morgan: Fel aelod newydd o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, cychwynnaf drwy longyfarch fy nghyd-Aelodau am adroddiad trylwyr dros ben, sy’n ymdrin ag amrywiaeth o faterion mewn ffordd sensitif. Yr oedd Ann Jones yn iawn i dynnu sylw at rai o anawsterau posibl gwneud y math hwn o waith, gan gydnabod ei bod yn rhaid gwneud y gwaith mewn ffordd a oedd yn diffinio’r problemau y mae gweithwyr mudol yn eu hwynebu a’r rheini lle gallwn ni fel sefydliad datganoledig gael yr effaith fwyaf. O wlad sydd â hanes balch o weithwyr mudol yn ymgartrefu yma, yr ydym yn ei chael yn anodd deall y rhwystrau sy’n wynebu nifer o weithwyr mudol. I fod yn berffaith onest, mae rhai o’n hetholwyr nadf ydynt yn deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng gweithwyr mudol,

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understanding, which is perpetuated by extremist parties, as Bethan Jenkins rightly pointed out, and by certain aspects of the media. That has a detrimental impact on migrant workers who are keen to live and work here and wish to contribute positively to the areas in which they wish to settle.

ffoaduriaid a mewnfudwyr anghyfreithlon. Mae diffyg dealltwriaeth, sy’n cael ei gynnal gan bleidiau eithafol, fel yr oedd Bethan Jenkins yn iawn i’w ddweud, a chan rai agweddau ar y cyfryngau. Caiff hyn effaith andwyol ar weithwyr mudol sy’n awyddus i fyw a gweithio yma ac sy’n dymuno cyfrannu’n gadarnhaol at yr ardaloedd lle dymunant ymgartrefu.

I was pleased when the Minister, in responding this afternoon, talked about the money that will be set aside for ESOL. We need to look at a range of opportunities for migrant workers to learn English, where they wish to do so and where learning the language is of benefit to them, particularly in their working environment, but also in accessing public services and being able to interact with public bodies. As someone who is learning Spanish, I have a fair degree of experience of the adult education sector in Cardiff. As the capital city, Cardiff has a good record of delivering adult education courses, which work extremely well for those who have the odd free evening—although I do not have many—and that works well for those who work flat-out during the working day.

Yr oeddwn yn falch fod y Gweinidog, wrth ymateb y prynhawn yma, wedi sôn am yr arian a neilltuir ar gyfer ESOL. Mae angen inni edrych ar ystod o gyfleoedd i weithwyr mudol ddysgu Saesneg, lle dymunant wneud hynny a lle bydd dysgu’r iaith o fudd iddynt, yn enwedig yn eu hamgylchedd gwaith, ond hefyd o ran gallu cael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ac ymwneud â chyrff cyhoeddus. Fel rhywun sy’n dysgu Sbaeneg, mae gennyf gryn brofiad o’r sector addysg oedolion yng Nghaerdydd. Fel prifddinas, mae gan Gaerdydd record dda o gyflwyno cyrsiau addysg oedolion, sy’n gweithio’n eithriadol o dda i’r rheiny sydd ag ambell noson rydd—er nad oes gen i lawer o’r rheiny—ac sy’n gweithio’n dda i’r rheiny sydd wrthi fel lladd nadroedd yn ystod y diwrnod gwaith.

In addition, we have a good record of workers’ education associations and further education colleges with a tradition of delivering ESOL courses. We need to ensure flexibility, because migrant workers will be in a variety of work circumstances; their working hours can be quite tricky, and they may find it difficult to access certain courses where those courses are being delivered. Therefore, I ask the Government to consider how it will ensure flexibility in the way that ESOL courses are delivered. The Chair will recall that the report quotes the Deputy Minister for Skills as saying

Hefyd, mae gennym record dda o gymdeithasau addysg gweithwyr a cholegau addysg bellach gyda thraddodiad o gyflwyno cyrsiau ESOL. Mae angen inni sicrhau hyblygrwydd, oherwydd bydd gweithwyr mudol mewn amrywiaeth o amgylchiadau gwaith; gall eu horiau gwaith fod yn eithaf problemus, ac efallai y cânt hi’n anodd cael rhai cyrsiau lle cyflwynir y cyrsiau hynny. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth ystyried sut y bydd yn sicrhau hyblygrwydd yn y ffordd y cyflwynir cyrsiau ESOL. Bydd y Cadeirydd yn cofio bod yr adroddiad yn dyfynnu geiriau’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau fel hyn

‘we are working up an English-for-speakers-of-other-languages policy’—

‘yr ydym yn gweithio tuag at bolisi Saesneg-i-siaradwyr-ieithoedd-eraill’—

I thought that was quite clumsy in itself— Yr oeddwn yn meddw bod hynny’n drwsgl iawn ynddo’i hun—

‘which will be important in addressing these issues’.

‘a fydd yn bwysig o ran ymdrin â’r materion hyn’.

4.50 p.m.

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We know that we need to deliver more ESOL courses, we know that we need the funding in place, and we know which organisations are best at helping to deliver those courses. While I accept that the Government will want to monitor and review how this work is carried out, we do not want another task and finish group sitting around for months on end trying to do the obvious that we all know needs to happen. Therefore, I ask the Government to get moving on this as quickly as possible. There could be many migrant workers undertaking jobs in Wales who are interacting with the public and who are facing difficulties. I know for a fact that, in Cardiff, there is a large number of migrant workers in the taxi business. That is to be welcomed, but I know that large numbers of them have been struggling with the English language and would like to undertake courses, but their working hours are rather inflexible and they want to work as many hours as possible to make money. Therefore, we need to ensure that whatever courses are available are delivered in a flexible way.

Gwyddom fod angen inni gyflwyno mwy o gyrsiau ESOL, gwyddom fod angen i’r cyllid fod ar gael, a gwyddom pa sefydliadau sydd orau am gyflwyno’r cyrsiau hynny. Er fy mod yn derbyn y bydd y Llywodraeth yn dymuno monitro ac adolygu sut y gwneir y gwaith hwn, nid oes arnom eisiau grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen arall yn eistedd o gwmpas am fisoedd bwygilydd yn ceisio gwneud yn amlwg yr hyn a wyddom i gyd ddylai ddigwydd. Felly, gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth fynd ati yn hyn cyn gynted â phosibl. Gall fod nifer o weithwyr mudol yn gwneud swyddi yng Nghymru sy’n ymwneud â’r cyhoedd ac sy’n wynebu anawsterau. Gwn i sicrwydd yng Nghaerdydd fod nifer mawr o weithwyr mudol yn y busnes tacsis. Mae hynny i’w groesawu, ond gwn fod nifer ohonynt wedi cael anhawster gyda’r iaith Saesneg ac y carent ddilyn cyrsiau, ond mae eu horiau gwaith yn anhyblyg ac y maent am weithio cynifer o oriau ag sydd modd er mwyn ennill arian. Felly, mae angen inni ofalu bod pa gyrsiau bynnag sydd ar gael yn cael eu cyflwyno mewn modd hyblyg.

Theme 5 in the report—the support for organisations and staff that come into contact with migrant workers and their families—is extremely important. We all know, and our constituents know, that accessing help and support is hard enough for people who were born here, who speak English or Welsh and who have lived here all their lives. For anyone coming to work here, trying to interact with a public body, local authority or the NHS must be an absolute minefield. We must be conscious of that, and we must ensure that sufficient support is available for those organisations delivering front-line services. They need to know what rights migrant workers have and how to address their concerns. I urge the Government to make as quick progress as possible on that particular theme in the report.

Mae thema 5 yn yr adroddiad—y gefnogaeth i sefydliadau a staff sy’n dod i gysylltiad â gweithwyr mudol a’u teuluoedd—yn hynod bwysig. Gwyddom i gyd, a gŵyr ein hetholwyr, fod cael help a chefnogaeth yn ddigon anodd i bobl sydd wedi eu geni yma, sy’n siarad Cymraeg neu Saesneg ac sydd wedi byw yma gydol eu hoes. I unrhyw un sy’n dod yma i weithio, rhaid bod ceisio ymwneud â chorff cyhoeddus, awdurdod lleol neu’r GIG yn hunllef. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o hynny, a rhaid inni ofalu bod digon o gefnogaeth ar gael i’r sefydliadau hynny sy’n darparu gwasanaethau rheng-flaen. Rhaid iddynt wybod pa hawliau sydd gan weithwyr mudol a sut i fynd i’r afael â’u pryderon. Anogaf y Llywodraeth i wneud cynnydd mor gyflym â phosibl ar y thema arbennig honno yn yr adroddiad.

We know that, as the economy slides further, many people may not want to live in this country at all. We know that because Polish workers have been leaving—

Gwyddom, wrth i’r economi lithro ymhellach, fod nifer o bobl nad ydynt yn dymuno byw yn y wlad hon o gwbl. Gwyddom hynny oherwydd mae gweithwyr o Wlad Pwyl wedi bod yn gadael—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Your time is up.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae eich amser ar ben.

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Jonathan Morgan: We need to do more to support those who are staying and working here.

Jonathan Morgan: Mae angen inni wneud mwy i gefnogi’r rheiny sy’n aros ac yn gweithio yma.

Eleanor Burnham: I am absolutely delighted, because Ann has done a wonderful job as Chair and the staff have been absolutely brilliant. I should declare a minor interest because my daughter and my son live in other parts of the EU, having learned the relevant languages, and they can tell you how important these issues are. Early in my career, I attempted to learn some Italian and German in evening classes, because we did not learn those languages in school. I am concerned that the funding cuts in further education colleges will mean that some of these courses will no longer be available, beyond the ESOL, which we have asked the Minister to look at more carefully. Language is the key. If you do not speak the language of the country you are living in, you cannot access any of the five key themes that emerged during the course of the inquiry. Access to information, access to language classes, improving conditions and all of the other issues depend on the ability to converse. Without that, you are absolutely stumped. I think that we should rejoice in the enrichment of our society by migrant workers. I agree with everyone who spoke about scotching myths. When one rides in a taxi, the drivers are conversant with what is going on in the area and they are the first to tell you some of these myths. I can tell you that I do not waste any time in scotching these myths. If anyone is in Wrexham on Saturday, they may wish to know that there is a ‘Hope not Hate’ meeting and procession. Why not come and join us? That is exactly the point. It is exactly what we need to be doing to scotch these myths.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf wrth fy modd, oherwydd mae Ann wedi gwneud gwaith gwych fel Cadeirydd a bu’r staff yn ardderchog. Dylwn ddatgan mân ddiddordeb yma gan fod fy merch a’m mab yn byw mewn rhannau eraill o’r UE, ac wedi dysgu’r ieithoedd perthnasol, a gallant hwy ddweud wrthych mor bwysig yw’r materion hyn. Yn gynnar yn fy ngyrfa ceisiais ddysgu rhywfaint o Eidaleg ac Almaeneg mewn dosbarthiadau nos, gan na chawsom ddysgu’r ieithoedd hynny yn yr ysgol. Yr wyf yn pryderu y bydd y toriadau cyllido mewn colegau addysg bellach yn golygu na fydd rhai o’r cyrsiau hyn bellach ar gael, ar wahân i ESOL, ac yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r Gweinidog edrych ar hynny’n fwy gofalus. Iaith yw’r allwedd. Os na allwch siarad iaith y wlad yr ydych yn byw ynddi, ni allwch fanteisio ar ddim un o’r pum thema allweddol a ddaeth i’r amlwg yn ystod yr ymchwiliad. Mae gallu cael gwybodaeth, gallu mynd i ddosbarthiadau iaith, gwella amodau a’r holl faterion eraill yn dibynnu ar allu sgwrsio. Heb hynny, mae’n nos arnoch. Credaf y dylem ymfalchïo bod ein cymdeithas yn cael ei chyfoethogi gan weithwyr mudol. Yr wyf yn cytuno â phawb a soniodd am roi diwedd ar fythau. Pan fydd rhywun yn mynd mewn tacsi, mae’r gyrwyr yn gyfarwydd iawn â’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn yr ardal a hwy yw’r cyntaf i adrodd rhai o’r mythau hyn wrthych. Gallaf ddweud yn blaen na fyddaf i’n gwastraffu dim amser cyn rhoi diwedd ar rai o’r mythau hyn. Os bydd unrhyw un yn Wrecsam ddydd Sadwrn, efallai yr hoffent wybod y bydd cyfarfod a gorymdaith ‘Gobaith nid Casineb’. Beth am ymuno â ni? Dyna’r union bwynt. Dyna’n union y mae angen inni ei wneud i roi taw ar y mythau hyn.

Translation services have already been mentioned. It was also quite shocking to hear that highly qualified workers were doing such menial tasks. I agree with Bethan’s view on recognising qualifications and her point about Citizens Advice—it is difficult to speak at the end of a long debate—and I agree entirely about having a fair

Crybwyllwyd gwasanaethau cyfieithu eisoes. Yr oedd hefyd yn frawychus iawn clywed bod gweithwyr sydd â chymwysterau uchel yn gwneud tasgau mor wasaidd. Cytunaf â barn Bethan am gydnabod cymwysterau a’i phwynt am Gyngor ar Bopeth—mae’n anodd siarad ar ddiwedd dadl faith—a chytunaf yn llwyr ynglŷn â chael comisiwn cyflogaeth

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employment commission. That is absolutely vital. I went to see some gangmasters on Deeside at Sealand, where people were picking leeks and cauliflowers. Just for information, leeks are cut differently for the Welsh and English markets, but, to be serious, bearing in mind that we were near Chester, some of those people were being bussed daily from Warrington, but, worse, some were being bussed daily from Wolverhampton. That is a great worry, because, apart from their supervisor, none of them spoke English. Therefore, from that point of view, there is a great deal of work to be done. I commend the committee’s work. I am sorry that the Minister has not seen fit to promote some of these points, particularly with regard to ESOL. I have a friend who teaches classes in Flintshire who tells me constantly that there are insufficient funds. It is really important. She deals with families and youngsters, and it is very important that they get as much support as possible in going to classes. I think that everyone else has covered what I wanted to cover. I commend this wonderful report.

deg. Mae hynny’n hollol hanfodol. Euthum i weld rhai meistri gangiau ar Lannau Dyfrdwy yn Sealand, lle’r oedd pobl yn tynnu cennin a blodfresych. Er gwybodaeth, caiff cennin eu torri’n wahanol ar gyfer y farchnad yng Nghymru ac yn Lloegr, ond i fod o ddifrif, gan gadw mewn cof ein bod yn agos i Gaer, yr oedd rhai o’r bobl hyn yn dal bws bob dydd o Warrington. Ond yn waeth byth yr oedd rhai’n dal bws bob dydd o Wolverhampton. Mae hyn yn bryder mawr, oherwydd ar wahân i’w goruchwyliwr nid oedd yr un ohonynt yn siarad Saesneg. Felly, o’r safbwynt hwnnw, erys llawer o waith i’w wneud. Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo gwaith y pwyllgor. Mae’n flin gennyf na welodd y Gweinidog yn dda i hybu rhai o’r pwyntiau hyn, yn enwedig o ran ESOL. Mae gennyf ffrind sy’n dysgu dosbarthiadau yn sir y Fflint ac sy’n dweud wrthyf yn gyson nad oes digon o arian. Mae’n wirioneddol bwysig. Mae hi’n ymdrin â theuluoedd a phobl ifanc, ac mae’n bwysig iawn iddynt gael hynny o gefnogaeth ag sydd modd i fynd i ddosbarthiadau. Credaf fod pawb arall wedi ymdrin â’r hyn yr oedd arnaf eisiau ei grybwyll. Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad campus hwn.

Helen Mary Jones: I am grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for allowing me time in which to speak. I only want to take a minute to thank Ann Jones and the committee for the report. As a constituency representative for one of the areas that has had one of the highest numbers of Polish migrant workers, I know of the contribution that they have made to our community and the many challenges that they face. This report accurately reflects experience and what needs to be done. I will not reiterate some of the concerns that other Members have raised with regard to those recommendations that the Government has only partially accepted, although I understand what the Minister said about constraints.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, am ganiatáu amser imi siarad. Hoffwn gymryd munud yn unig i ddiolch i Ann Jones a’r pwyllgor am yr adroddiad. Fel cynrychiolydd etholaeth dros un o’r ardaloedd lle yr oedd un o’r niferoedd mwyaf o weithwyr mudol o Wlad Pwyl, gwn am y cyfraniad y maent wedi’i wneud i’n cymuned a’r amrywiol heriau sy’n eu hwynebu. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn adlewyrchu’n gywir eu profiad a’r hyn y mae angen ei wneud. Nid wyf am ailadrodd rhai o’r pryderon a godwyd gan Aelodau eraill ynglŷn â’r argymhellion hynny nad yw’r Llywodraeth ond wedi’u derbyn yn rhannol, er fy mod yn deall yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog am gyfyngiadau.

However, I will put one further point to the Minister, which arises out of the current economic circumstances. Jonathan Morgan referred to the fact that some workers are choosing to go home. However, recently, there was a situation in my constituency where large numbers of migrant workers were being made unemployed who did not

Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf un pwynt pellach gerbron y Gweinidog, sy’n codi o’r amgylchiadau economaidd presennol. Cyfeiriodd Jonathan Morgan at y ffaith fod rhai gweithwyr yn dewis mynd adref. Fodd bynnag, yn ddiweddar bu achos yn fy etholaeth i lle gwnaethpwyd nifer mawr o weithwyr mudol yn ddi-waith ac nid oeddent

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wish to go home. The agency that currently employs them is hoping to be able to access some of the same sort of support from the Assembly Government that other businesses are able to access in terms of retraining workers and enabling them to perhaps fit into other parts of the economic market.

yn dymuno mynd adref. Mae’r asiantaeth sy’n eu cyflogi ar hyn o bryd yn gobeithio gallu manteisio ar ychydig o’r gefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad ag a gaiff busnesau eraill i gadw gweithwyr a’u galluogi, efallai, i fod yn rhan o rannau eraill o’r farchnad economaidd.

I will raise those points in correspondence with the appropriate Ministers—Jane Hutt and Ieuan Wyn Jones—but I hope that we will be able to provide that support to that group of workers because it is imperative that we treat them, as this report stresses, as full and equal members of our community for as long as they choose to be here; whether they choose to come and settle permanently, or whether they choose to come and work for a few years. I am concerned about these workers, many of whom do not have the language skills that they need to be able to access their rights, although there is some very good work taking place in Llanelli to help them to do so. I hope that the Assembly Government will be able to extend to that group of migrant workers the same sort of support and protection that we extend to all our other citizens.

Codaf y pwyntiau hynny mewn gohebiaeth gyda’r Gweinidogion priodol—Jane Hutt ac Ieuan Wyn Jones—ond gobeithio y gallwn roi’r gefnogaeth honno i’r grŵp hwnnw o weithwyr, oherwydd mae’n hollbwysig inni eu trin, fel y pwysleisia’r adroddiad hwn, fel aelodau llawn a chyfartal o’n cymuned cyhyd ag y dewisant aros yma; p’un a ddewisant ddod ac ymgartrefu’n barhaol, ynteu dod i weithio am rai blynyddoedd. Yr wyf yn pryderu am y gweithwyr hyn, nifer ohonynt heb y sgiliau iaith y mae arnynt eu hangen i allu manteisio ar eu hawliau, er bod ychydig waith da iawn yn digwydd yn Llanelli i’w helpu i wneud hynny. Gobeithio y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad estyn i’r grŵp hwnnw o weithwyr mudol yr un gefnogaeth a gwarchodaeth ag a rown i’n holl ddinasyddion eraill.

Joyce Watson: I also pay tribute to Ann and commend the work of my fellow committee members. The report identifies many issues affecting migrant workers in Wales and it makes important recommendations that I am sure that the Minister will duly consider. I welcome the Minister’s positive response to the report thus far.

Joyce Watson: Rhoddaf innau deyrnged i Ann a chymeradwyaf waith fy nghyd-Aelodau o’r pwyllgor. Mae’r adroddiad yn nodi nifer o faterion sy’n effeithio ar weithwyr mudol yng Nghymru, ac mae’n gwneud argymhellion pwysig yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog yn eu hystyried. Croesawaf ymateb cadarnhaol y Gweinidog i’r adroddiad hyd yma.

In the course of our evidence sessions, the establishment and the role of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was cited as having a positive impact on the welfare and protection of migrant workers. The recommendation to expand the remit of the authority reflects this, as did the concern expressed by the Wales Trade Union Congress and the Country Land and Business Association that it should reserve additional resource. The Gangmasters Licensing Authority indicated that a common question posed by migrant workers, and organisations working with migrants, was why its remit was not expanded, particularly into the hospitality and cleaning sectors. Having

Yn ystod ein sesiynau tystiolaeth, nodwyd sefydlu a rôl yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistr Gangiau fel rhywbeth a gafodd effaith gadarnhaol ar les a diogelwch gweithwyr mudol. Mae’r argymhelliad i ehangu cylch gorchwyl yr awdurdod yn adlewyrchu hyn, felly hefyd y pryder a fynegwyd gan Gyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru a Chymdeithas Tir a Busnesau Cefn Gwlad y dylai gael adnoddau ychwanegol. Dywedodd yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau mai cwestiwn cyffredin gan weithwyr mudol, a chan sefydliadau sy’n gweithio gyda gweithwyr mudol, yw pam nad yw ei gylch gorchwyl wedi ei ehangu, yn enwedig i’r sectorau croesawu a glanhau. O ystyried y dystiolaeth

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considered the evidence that we were presented with, I agree with the assessment of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority chairman, Paul Whitehouse, that it could be considered sensible to extend the Gangmasters Licensing Authority’s remit to license in other sectors now that it has demonstrated that it can operate effectively.

a gyflwynwyd inni, cytunaf ag asesiad cadeirydd yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau, Paul Whitehouse, y gellid ystyried mai doeth fyddai ymestyn cylch gorchwyl yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau i drwyddedu mewn sectorau eraill gan ei fod wedi dangos y gall weithredu’n effeithiol.

Where the authority has engaged with other industries, particularly the agriculture industry, it has benefited workers and employers alike. It would be sensible to extend it now to other areas where migrant workers are subject to poor working conditions, particularly where they are employed by agencies, which do not always uphold and communicate legal working practices.

Lle mae’r awdurdod wedi ymwneud â diwydiannau eraill, yn enwedig y diwydiant amaeth, mae wedi bod o fudd i weithwyr a chyflogwyr fel ei gilydd. Doeth fyddai ei ymestyn yn awr i feysydd eraill lle mae gweithwyr mudol yn dioddef amodau gwaith gwael, yn enwedig lle cyflogir hwy gan asiantaethau, nad ydynt bob amser yn cynnal nac yn cyfleu arferion gweithio cyfreithlon.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government to reply.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Galwaf ar y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol i ateb.

Brian Gibbons: I thought that you said that my time had run out, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Brian Gibbons: Yr oeddwn yn meddwl ichi ddweud bod fy amser ar ben, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: It has, but I just wanted you to tell everyone. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Ydy, ond dim ond eisiau ichi ddweud wrth bawb yr oeddwn. [Chwerthin.]

Ann Jones: You can have a minute of my time.

Ann Jones: Cewch funud o’m hamser i.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That will be fine. I will allow you two minutes, Minister.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Bydd hynny’n iawn. Caniatâf ddwy funud ichi, Weinidog.

Brian Gibbons: Thank you. I will therefore rise to the challenge. There were a number of points made, and I tried to take note of them as they were being made. I think that reference was made to the various supervisory agencies, particularly the Health and Safety Executive, the Gangmasters Licensing Authority and so forth. Officials have already had one meeting with the six organisations suggested in the report. It has been agreed that we will meet again to take that agenda further forward. Progress is being made on that recommendation.

Brian Gibbons: Diolch. Atebaf yr her, felly. Gwnaethpwyd nifer o bwyntiau, a cheisiais eu nodi wrth iddynt gael eu gwneud. Credaf fod cyfeiriad wedi ei wneud at y gwahanol asiantaethau goruchwylio, yn enwedig yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch, yr Awdurdod Trwyddedu Meistri Gangiau, ac yn y blaen. Mae’r swyddogion eisoes wedi cael un cyfarfod gyda’r chwe sefydliad a awgrymir yn yr adroddiad. Cytunwyd y byddwn yn cwrdd eto i symud yr agenda honno ymlaen ymhellach. Mae cynnydd yn digwydd ar yr argymhelliad hwnnw.

5.00 p.m.

Somebody also made reference to the fact Cyfeiriodd rhywun hefyd at y ffaith nad

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that we do not accurately know the number of migrants in Wales, as those who are on the register do not have to de-register when they leave the country. That is true, and that is one reason why the Welsh Assembly Government, working with the Welsh Local Government Association, is carrying out a fairly detailed study with two local authorities in Wales: to get a better understanding of the needs of migrants from the point of view of local authorities. Equally, a key purpose of the single equality scheme is to ensure that the Government is conscious of the importance of the diversity of service users in Wales. Hopefully, that will provide a strong platform from which we can take on board the needs of migrants as they engage with public services. Thank you for your indulgence, Deputy Presiding Officer.

ydym yn gwybod yn union faint o weithwyr mudol sydd yng Nghymru, gan nad oes rhaid i’r rheiny sydd ar y gofrestr ddatgofrestru pan fyddant yn gadael y wlad. Mae hynny’n wir, ac mae’n un rheswm pam mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn gweithio gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, yn cynnal astudiaeth weddol fanwl gyda dau awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru: er mwyn cael gwell dealltwriaeth o anghenion gweithwyr mudol o safbwynt yr awdurdodau lleol. Yn yr un modd, un pwrpas allweddol i’r cynllun cydraddoldeb sengl yw sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd amrywiaeth defnyddwyr gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Bydd hynny, gobeithio, yn darparu llwyfan cryf y gallwn roi sylw i anghenion gweithwyr mudol ohono wrth iddynt ddod i gysylltiad â’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Diolch ichi am eich amynedd, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

Ann Jones: Nothing comes for free, Brian. The reason I gave you that minute of my time was because I now hope that you will agree to give the committee an update on where we are with these important recommendations. I accept what you are saying and realise that there are constraints. However, there is a need, as Jonathan rightly said, to sort out at least the recommendation on English for speakers of other languages.

Ann Jones: Ni cheir dim am ddim, Brian. Y rheswm y rhoddais ichi’r munud hwnnw o’m hamser oedd fy mod yn gobeithio yn awr y cytunwch i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r pwyllgor ynghylch lle’r ydym arni gyda’r argymhellion pwysig hyn. Yr wyf yn derbyn yr hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud ac yn sylweddoli bod cyfyngiadau. Fodd bynnag, mae angen, fel y dywedodd Jonathan yn gywir, datrys o leiaf yr argymhelliad ynglŷn â Saesneg i siaradwyr ieithoedd eraill.

I am grateful to past members of the committee for their comments. Bethan Jenkins, Mark Isherwood, and Helen Mary Jones were all there at the beginning when we took the decision to do this work. I am grateful for the support of the committee when this subject was first put forward. I think that we have done well. Jonathan was right when he said that people do not understand the difference between migrant workers, immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers. We have a duty to dispel the myths and to send out a clear message.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i gyn-aelodau o’r pwyllgor am eu sylwadau. Yr oedd Bethan Jenkins, Mark Isherwood a Helen Mary Jones i gyd yno ar y cychwyn pan benderfynasom wneud y gwaith hwn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gefnogaeth y pwyllgor pan roddwyd y mater hwn gerbron gyntaf. Credaf ein bod wedi gwneud yn dda. Yr oedd Jonathan yn iawn pan ddywedodd nad yw pobl yn deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng gweithwyr mudol, mewnfudwyr, ffoaduriaid a cheiswyr lloches. Mae gennym ddyletswydd i chwalu’r mythau a chyfleu neges glir.

There is always one item of interest with Eleanor. Perhaps I could win a quiz league now that I know that Welsh leeks are cut differently from English leeks. If I win a quiz, I will let you know, Eleanor. [Laughter.] Seriously, however, you made the point forcefully about how some migrant

Mae wastad un peth o ddiddordeb gyda Eleanor. Efallai y gallwn ennill cynghrair cwis yn awr fy mod yn gwybod bod cennin o Gymru’n cael eu torri’r wahanol i gennin o Loegr. Os enillaf gwis, rhof wybod ichi, Eleanor. [Chwerthin.] O ddifrif, fodd bynnag, gwnaethoch y pwynt yn rymus ynglŷn â’r

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workers are treated, and we all found that when we went to see how they are employed.

ffordd y caiff rhai gweithwyr mudol eu trin, a gwelodd pawb ohonom hynny pan aethom i weld sut y cânt eu cyflogi.

You are right to mention the Hope Not Hate rally. It is incumbent on us all to turn out to ensure that the forthcoming European elections are fought on the basis of what Europe can do for us, and are not ruined by a small-minded party that would seek to destroy what we have built as a European nation. I hope that this report is not just used to prop up piano legs; I hope that it will become a working document and that we will continue to build on its successes. I thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer and Assembly Members, for your support.

Yr ydych yn iawn i grybwyll y rali Hope Not Hate. Mae’n ddyletswydd ar bawb ohonom i droi allan i sicrhau bod yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd sydd i’w cynnal yn fuan yn cael eu hymladd ar sail yr hyn y gall Ewrop ei wneud drosom, ac nad ydynt yn cael eu difetha gan blaid fychanfrydig a fyddai’n ceisio dinistrio’r hyn yr ydym wedi’i adeiladu fel cenedl Ewropeaidd. Gobeithiaf nad i godi coesau pianos yn unig y defnyddir yr adroddiad hwn; gobeithiaf y daw’n ddogfen waith ac y byddwn yn parhau i adeiladu ar ei llwyddiannau. Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd ac Aelodau Cynulliad, am eich cefnogaeth.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to note the report of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. Does any Member object? I see that there are no objections. In that case the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes gwrthwynebiadau. Felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr CymreigWelsh Conservatives Debate

Cyllideb Llywodraeth y DUThe UK Government’s Budget

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next item on the agenda is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the UK Government’s budget. However, we do not appear to have a Minister present to reply to the debate.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr eitem nesaf ar y rhaglen yw dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar gyllideb Llywodraeth y DU. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n ymddangos bod gennym Weinidog yn bresennol i ymateb i’r ddadl.

Alun Cairns: With the greatest respect, my reading of Standing Orders is that we plough on with the debate and it is a matter for the administration to decide whether to respond.

Alun Cairns: Gyda’r parch mwyaf, fy nealltwriaeth i o’r Rheolau Sefydlog yw ein bod yn bustachu ymlaen â’r ddadl ac mai mater i’r weinyddiaeth yw penderfynu a fydd yn ymateb.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Fine, thank you. I do not know whether we will quite plough on with it, but we will move on to it. It might be ploughing by the end. [Laughter.] I call on Nick Ramsay to move the motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Iawn, diolch. Ni wn ai bustachu ymlaen yn union a wnawn, ond symudwn at y ddadl. Efallai mai bustachu a fyddwn erbyn y diwedd. [Chwerthin.] Galwaf ar Nick Ramsay i gyflwyno’r cynnig.

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Nick Ramsay: I move that Nick Ramsay: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

notes with concern the implications for public spending in Wales that follow the budget delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 22 April. (NDM4196)

yn nodi â phryder y goblygiadau i wariant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ar ôl y gyllideb a gyflwynwyd gan Ganghellor y Trysorlys ar 22 Ebrill. (NDM4196)

Our debate focuses on the very real concerns that exist about the implications of the budget for the day-to-day lives of people in Wales. Needless to say, as a country, we are facing an extremely grave economic situation. Public finances are in their most desperate state since the end of the world war two more than 60 years ago. We are in a global economic downturn, but that does not explain why Britain’s recession will be more severe than that of America, Germany, France, Italy, Spain and many other major economies across the world. Our structural deficit is also more than double France’s, three times Italy’s, and more than 10 times Germany’s. It is more than Pakistan’s and Hungary’s, and those are countries the International Monetary Fund has already been called into.

Mae ein dadl yn canolbwyntio ar y pryderon gwirioneddol sy’n bodoli ynglŷn â goblygiadau’r gyllideb i fywydau beunyddiol pobl yng Nghymru. Nid oes angen dweud ein bod, fel gwlad, yn wynebu sefyllfa economaidd eithriadol o ddifrifol. Mae cyllid cyhoeddus yn y cyflwr mwyaf enbyd ers diwedd yr ail ryfel byd fwy na 60 mlynedd yn ôl. Yr ydym mewn dirywiad economaidd byd-eang, ond nid yw hynny’n egluro pam y bydd dirwasgiad Prydain yn fwy difrifol na dirwasgiad America, yr Almaen, Ffrainc, yr Eidal, Sbaen a llawer o economïau mawr eraill ar draws y byd. Mae ein diffyg strwythurol hefyd fwy na dwywaith eiddo diffyg Ffrainc, mwy na thair gwaith diffyg yr Eidal, a mwy na 10 gwaith diffyg yr Almaen. Mae’n fwy na diffyg Pakistan a Hwngari, a’r rheiny yw’r gwledydd y mae’r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol eisoes wedi cael ei galw iddynt.

Wednesday’s budget ought to have been a turning point in our economic history; it certainly needed to be. We are where we are after a decade of Labour mismanagement at Westminster, but it was time to draw a line in the sand and to get to grips with the problems that we, as a country, face. What did we get? Government borrowing in the next two years alone will be greater than that of all previous budgets put together since the founding of the Bank of England 300 years ago. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that debt will not be reduced to sustainable levels until 2032, and Wales will have to bear its share of the UK’s misery.

Dylai cyllideb dydd Mercher fod wedi bod yn drobwynt yn ein hanes economaidd; yn sicr, yr oedd angen iddi fod. Yr ydym lle’r ydym ar ôl degawd o gamreoli gan Lafur yn San Steffan, ond yr oedd yn bryd tynnu llinell yn y tywod a mynd i’r afael â’r problemau yr ydym ni, fel gwlad, yn eu hwynebu. Beth gawsom ni? Bydd y benthyca gan y Llywodraeth yn y ddwy flynedd nesaf yn unig yn fwy na’r holl gyllidebau blaenorol gyda’i gilydd ers sefydlu Banc Lloegr 300 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid wedi dweud na chaiff dyledion eu gostwng i lefelau cynaliadwy tan 2032, a bydd yn rhaid i Gymru ysgwyddo’i rhan o drallod y DU.

Tragically for Wales, this year’s budget was the turning point that failed to turn. It was a demeaning mixture of bogus initiatives, fantasy forecasts, and a low political stratagem. The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery confirmed in his

Yn drychinebus i Gymru, cyllideb eleni oedd y trobwynt a fethodd droi. Yr oedd yn gymysgedd diraddiol o gynlluniau ffug, rhagolygon ffantasi, a chastiau gwleidyddol o isel radd. Cadarnhaodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau

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statement to Plenary yesterday that the budget will result in Wales receiving £216 million less in revenue spending and £200 million less in capital spending in 2010-11. The Government, I know, does not seem to like putting those figures together, but that comes to a grand total of £416 million, a huge proportion of the Assembly budget. It is hard to get your mind around the scale of this cut, but it becomes easier to understand when you look at what that capital could buy: six secondary schools, six times the funding for ReAct, and, as is topical at this time, three times the money set aside for flu preparedness. Look at what the revenue could get you: 9,000 nurses.

Cyhoeddus yn ei ddatganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ddoe y bydd y gyllideb yn golygu bod Cymru’n cael £216 miliwn yn llai o wariant refeniw a £200 miliwn yn llai o wariant cyfalaf yn 2010-11. Gwn nad yw’r Llywodraeth, yn ôl pob tebyg, yn hoffi rhoi’r ffigurau hynny at ei gilydd, ond daw hynny i gyfanswm llawn o £416 miliwn, cyfran enfawr o gyllideb y Cynulliad. Mae’n anodd cael eich meddwl i gwmpasu maint y toriad hwn, ond daw’n haws ei ddeall pan edrychwch chi ar yr hyn y gallai’r cyfalaf hwnnw ei brynu: chwe ysgol uwchradd, chwe gwaith y cyllid ar gyfer ReAct, ac, fel sy’n amserol ar hyn o bryd, dair gwaith yr arian sydd wedi cael ei neilltuo i baratoi ar gyfer ffliw. Edrychwch ar yr hyn y gallai’r refeniw ei ddarparu: 9,000 o nyrsys.

In his statement to Plenary yesterday, the Minister for finance sought crumbs of comfort, his own quantum of solace, from the fact that the situation could have been worse. We were told yesterday that we could have been facing a £300 million revenue cut, but, thankfully, in came the Minister and the First Minister on their white horses. The Prime Minister may have claimed to save the world, but the Minister for finance seemed to claim yesterday that he saved Wales.

Yn ei ddatganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ddoe, ceisiodd y Gweinidog dros gyllid friwsion o gysur, ei gwantwm solas ei hun, o’r ffaith y gallai’r sefyllfa fod wedi bod yn waeth. Dywedwyd wrthym ddoe y gallem fod yn wynebu toriad refeniw o £300 miliwn, ond, diolch byth, i mewn y daeth y Gweinidog a’r Prif Weinidog ar eu ceffylau gwynion. Efallai i’r Prif Weinidog honni iddo achub y byd, ond yr oedd y Gweinidog dros gyllid fel petai’n honni ddoe iddo achub Cymru.

Joyce Watson: I am glad and pleased to hear you outlining our plans, but where is your commitment to the unemployed? Do you have a commitment only to the very wealthy and to reducing their inheritance tax? Could you answer that, please?

Joyce Watson: Yr wyf yn falch ac yn fodlon o’ch clywed yn amlinellu eich cynlluniau, ond ble mae’ch ymrwymiad i’r sawl sy’n ddi-waith? Ai dim ond i bobl hynod gyfoethog y mae gennych ymrwymiad ac i leihau’r dreth etifeddiaeth? A wnewch chi ateb hynny, os gwelwch yn dda?

Nick Ramsay: I will make some more progress, Joyce, and then I am sure that your answers will be evident as I make headway.

Nick Ramsay: Symudaf ymlaen, Joyce, ac yna yr wyf yn siŵr y daw’r atebion ichi yn amlwg wrth imi wneud cynnydd.

The Government may think that that is good enough. It may be happy patting itself on the back and comforting itself in the knowledge that no matter how bad things might be, they could always be worse. However, we do not accept that, and I do not think that the people of Wales will put up with that approach for much longer.

Efallai fod y Llywodraeth yn meddwl ei fod yn ddigon da. Efallai ei bod yn hapus yn curo’i chefn ei hun ac yn ei llongyfarch ei hun gan wybod, ni waeth pa mor ddrwg yw pethau efallai, y gallent wastad fod yn waeth. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn derbyn hynny, ac ni chredaf y gwnaiff pobl Cymru oddef y ffordd honno o weithredu lawer yn hwy.

We were always led to believe that a Labour Government here would have the ear of a Labour Government at Westminster. That

Fe’n harweiniwyd i gredu y byddai Llywodraeth Lafur yma yn cael clust Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan. Nid yw’n

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does not seem to be happening much any more, does it? Maybe it does not apply any more to the Labour-Plaid coalition. In fact, it seems that Labour in Westminster is quite happy to allow its colleagues here to shoulder more than their share of the burden of the national economic crisis. Aside from relying on the ever-inflating borrowing balloon, which Alistair Darling is busily blowing up, seemingly until it goes pop, we did see another way for the Government to claw back a tax rise, namely imposing a tax rate of 50p in the pound on incomes over £150,000. On the face of it, that was the only direct tax increase, but, as we know from past experience, when the Assembly budget is squeezed, it is usually local government that bears the brunt of cuts. When that happens, local authorities are faced with the unhappy choice of either cutting front-line services or raising council tax; it is usually a mixture of both.

ymddangos bod hynny’n digwydd llawer mwyach, yn nad ydyw? Efallai nad yw’n berthnasol mwyach i’r glymblaid Llafur-Plaid. Yn wir, mae’n ymddangos bod Llafur yn San Steffan yn ddigon hapus i adael i’w chyd-Aelodau yma ysgwyddo mwy na’u rhan o faich yr argyfwng economaidd cenedlaethol. Ar wahân i ddibynnu ar y balŵn benthyca sy’n mynd yn fwy yn barhaus, y mae Alistair Darling yn brysur yn ei chwythu i fyny, nes iddo yn ôl pob golwg fynd pop, fe welsom ffordd arall i’r Llywodraeth adfachu codiad treth, sef drwy bennu cyfradd dreth o 50c yn y bunt ar incwm o fwy na £150,000. Yn arwynebol, dyma’r unig gynnydd mewn trethu uniongyrchol, ond, fel y gwyddom o brofiad y gorffennol, pan gaiff cyllideb y Cynulliad ei gwasgu, llywodraeth leol fel arfer sy’n dioddef gwaethaf y toriadau. Pan fydd hynny’n digwydd, mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu’r dewis anhapus o un ai dorri gwasanaethau rheng flaen neu godi’r dreth gyngor; fel arfer, mae’n gymysgedd o’r naill a’r llall.

I want to know from the Minister—and I am glad to see that he is here now—whether it is the hard-pressed council tax payer who will ultimately be picking up part of the tab that this Government has inexorably racked up over the past 10 years. I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be.

Yr wyf am gael gwybod gan y Gweinidog—ac yr wyf yn falch o weld ei fod yma erbyn hyn—ai’r talwr treth gyngor sydd dan bwysau a fydd yn talu rhan o’r bil y mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi ei hel yn ddiymatal dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf. Yr wyf yn amau yn wir mai felly y bydd hi.

Alun Davies: You repeatedly come back to this issue, and I am genuinely bewildered as to why the Conservatives do that. We are all aware, from the debates that we have had in the Chamber and elsewhere, that, when the Conservatives were in power, council tax trebled over a short time, and increased far more over three years than it has increased in the past decade of Labour government. The reality is that you lost control when you were in power, and you have not got a clue how to respond to the crisis today.

Alun Davies: Yr ydych yn dod yn ôl at y mater hwn dro ar ôl tro, ac yr wyf yn wir wedi drysu ynglŷn â pham mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn gwneud hynny. Yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol, o’r dadleuon yr ydym wedi’u cael yn y Siambr ac mewn mannau eraill, i’r dreth gyngor, pan oedd y Ceidwadwyr mewn grym, dreblu dros gyfnod byr, ac iddi gynyddu llawer mwy dros dair blynedd nag y mae wedi cynyddu yn y degawd diwethaf o lywodraeth Lafur. Y realiti yw ichi golli rheolaeth pan oeddech mewn grym, ac nid oes gennych unrhyw syniad sut i ymateb i’r argyfwng heddiw.

5.10 p.m.

Nick Ramsay: Given the scale of the borrowing requirement and the national debt that we face, I find it quite extraordinary that Alun Davies has the blatant cheek to make

Nick Ramsay: Ac ystyried maint y gofyniad benthyca a’r ddyled genedlaethol yr ydym yn ei hwynebu, mae’n gwbl hynod i mi fod gan Alun Davies yr haerllugrwydd digywilydd i

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that comment. Alun, the fact is that Wales has suffered massively over the past 10 years. You have only to look at Blaenau Gwent, for instance, to see that, which has some of the worst economic statistics in Wales. That is why Labour was booted out of there at the last Assembly election.

wneud y sylw hwnnw. Alun, y ffaith yw bod Cymru wedi dioddef yn enfawr dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf. I weld hynny, nid oes ond yn rhaid ichi edrych ar Flaenau Gwent, er enghraifft, sydd â rhai o’r ystadegau economaidd gwaelaf yng Nghymru. Dyna pam y cafodd Llafur ei chicio allan o’r fan honno yn etholiad diwethaf y Cynulliad.

I will move on. The Minister skirted around this issue in his statement yesterday, and it would be good to have a little more clarity from him as to where the axe will fall, along with an assurance that local government will not have to bear more than its fair share of so-called ‘efficiency savings’.

Symudaf ymlaen. Mingamodd y Gweinidog o amgylch y mater hwn yn ei ddatganiad ddoe, a byddai’n dda cael ychydig mwy o eglurder ganddo ynglŷn â ble y bydd y fwyell yn disgyn, ynghyd â sicrwydd na fydd yn rhaid i lywodraeth leol ddioddef mwy na’i rhan deg o’r ‘arbedion effeithlonrwydd’ honedig.

It would be a start if the Government here and at Westminster were singing from the same hymn sheet. There have been different noises coming from different people. The Secretary of State for Wales has said that the budget puts Wales in the best possible place to prepare for economic recovery, but the First Minister has been a little more honest and has said that he cannot guarantee that there will be no cuts to services or job losses in the public sector. The Deputy First Minister seemed to share that view, but if you want an alternative view, you can look at what the former Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain, has said: not enough has been done in the first 10 years of devolution to make efficiency savings. I notice that Adam Price MP shares that view. What hope do we have of a better deal from Westminster with that lack of consistency?

Byddai’n ddechreuad petai’r Llywodraeth yma ac yn San Steffan yn canu’r un dôn. Mae synau gwahanol wedi bod yn dod o bobl wahanol. Mae Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru wedi dweud bod y gyllideb yn rhoi Cymru yn y lle gorau posibl i baratoi ar gyfer adferiad economaidd, ond mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi bod ychydig yn fwy gonest ac wedi dweud na all warantu na fydd toriadau i wasanaethau na cholledion swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus. Yr oedd yn ymddangos bod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn rhannu’r farn honno, ond os ydych am gael barn amgen, gallech edrych ar yr hyn a ddywedodd cyn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Peter Hain: nid oes digon wedi cael ei wneud yn 10 mlynedd cyntaf datganoli i wneud arbedion effeithlonrwydd. Sylwaf fod Adam Price AS yn rhannu’r farn honno. Pa obaith sydd gennym o gael gwell bargen gan San Steffan gyda’r diffyg cysondeb hwnnw?

It does not help that the Chancellor’s figures seem to be so unreliable. He had said that the figures for this quarter would be similar to those for the last quarter, but, in fact, they are worse. Within an hour, the IMF had rubbished his growth forecasts, suggesting that Labour’s home-grown debt crisis will drag us down for years. I have some sympathy for the Minister for finance, because he is clearly a man in the wrong place at the wrong time. He has said that the Government budget is facing a brick wall in a few years’ time. [Interruption.] You said it yourself, Minister, and it was a very good soundbite.

Nid yw’n helpu bod ffigurau’r Canghellor yn ymddangos mor annibynadwy. Yr oedd wedi dweud y byddai’r ffigurau am y chwarter hwn yn debyg i’r rhai am y chwarter diwethaf, ond, mewn gwirionedd, maent yn waeth. O fewn awr, yr oedd yr IMF wedi dilorni ei ragolygon, gan awgrymu y bydd argyfwng dyledion Llafur, sydd wedi tyfu yma, yn ein llusgo i lawr am flynyddoedd. Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â’r Gweinidog dros gyllid oherwydd mae’n amlwg yn ddyn yn y man anghywir ar yr adeg anghywir. Mae wedi dweud bod cyllideb y Llywodraeth yn wynebu wal friciau ymhen rhai blynyddoedd. [Torri ar

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draws.] Dywedasoch hynny eich hun, Weinidog, ac yr oedd yn seindalp da iawn.

You were permitted to bring forward spending from future years to supplement this year’s budget. That was a good thing, but it will have to be paid for down the line, and if the Government’s projections of growth of over 3 per cent coming out of the recession are proved to be wrong, as many independent analysts believe, we will be facing an even bigger problem in years to come.

Caniatawyd ichi ddod â gwariant o’r blynyddoedd i ddod ymlaen i’w ychwanegu at y gyllideb eleni. Yr oedd hynny’n beth da, ond bydd rhaid talu amdano yn ddiweddarach, ac os profir bod amcanestyniadau’r Llywodraeth o dwf o fwy na 3 y cant wrth ddod allan o’r dirwasgiad yn anghywir, fel y cred llawer o ddadansoddwyr annibynnol, byddwn yn wynebu problem fwy fyth yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.

What could the Government in London have done if it had put its head together with the Government here? For a start, between them they could have scrapped the costly and illiberal identity card scheme; that would have saved a lot of money. Within Wales, the Government could have allowed the use of the private finance initiative in the health service, rather than ruling it out for dogmatic reasons; that makes absolutely no sense. Making prescriptions free for everyone regardless of income—what a blunder that was. Money could have been saved across the board, and still could.

Beth allai’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain fod wedi’i wneud petai wedi gweithio gyda’r Llywodraeth yma? I ddechrau, rhyngddynt gallent fod wedi rhoi’r gorau i’r cynllun cardiau adnabod costus ac anrhyddfrydol; byddai hynny wedi arbed llawer o arian. Yng Nghymru, gallai’r Llywodraeth fod wedi caniatáu defnyddio’r fenter cyllid preifat yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn hytrach na’i gwrthod am resymau dogmatig; nid yw hynny’n gwneud unrhyw synnwyr o gwbl. Gwneud presgripsiynau yn rhad ac am ddim i bawb, heb ystyried incwm—dyna gamsyniad oedd hynny. Gellid bod wedi arbed arian yn gyffredinol, ac mae hynny’n dal yn bosibl.

I am pleased to move this motion, which stresses that this budget was a missed opportunity for the people of Wales. As we have seen and said before, Labour Governments always leave us in an economic mess, and, sadly, this Assembly Government will be a part of that legacy. The people of Wales will, I fear, be paying the price of this budget and living with its implications for years to come.

Yr wyf yn falch o gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn, sy’n pwysleisio bod y gyllideb hon yn gyfle a gollwyd i bobl Cymru. Fel yr ydym wedi gweld ac wedi dweud o’r blaen, mae Llywodraethau Llafur bob amser yn ein gadael mewn anhrefn economaidd, ac, yn anffodus, bydd y Llywodraeth hon yn y Cynulliad yn rhan o’r etifeddiaeth honno. Ofnaf y bydd pobl Cymru yn talu pris y gyllideb hon ac yn byw gyda’i goblygiadau am flynyddoedd i ddod.

Lesley Griffiths: I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. It is hugely important that we in the Assembly, and in the wider country, have a full grasp and understanding of the choices facing us with regard to public finances in these difficult and stringent times. No-one is hiding from the fact that public finances here, across Europe, and further afield have been convulsed as a direct consequence of how Governments across the world chose to address and correct the collapse of the financial sector over recent months. That convulsion has been truly

Lesley Griffiths: Croesawaf y cyfle i siarad yn y ddadl hon. Mae’n aruthrol o bwysig ein bod ni yn y Cynulliad, ac yn y wlad yn ehangach, yn llwyr ddirnad a deall y dewisiadau sy’n ein hwynebu o ran cyllid cyhoeddus yn yr adegau anodd a llym hyn. Nid oes unrhyw un yn cuddio rhag y ffaith bod cyllid cyhoeddus yma, ar draws Ewrop, ac ymhellach eto, wedi cael ei ddirdynnu o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i’r ffordd y mae Llywodraethau ar draws y byd wedi dewis ymdrin â chwymp y sector ariannol dros y misoedd diwethaf a’i gywiro. Mae’r

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global in both the economic and financial sense in recent months, and, sadly, UK public finances are no exception.

dirgryniad hwnnw wedi bod yn wirioneddol fyd-eang yn yr ystyr economaidd ac ariannol dros y misoedd diwethaf, ac, yn anffodus, nid yw cyllid cyhoeddus y DU yn eithriad.

As a consequence, here in Wales, we are now facing serious challenges when it comes to funding our public services in the coming years. However, in understanding these challenges, it is absolutely vital that we fully comprehend the context within which we debate such matters today. It is crucial to understand that we in the UK, and here in Wales, are not facing these challenges in some kind of fiscal bubble, unique to these islands. When we switch on the news or read the headlines, it is so easy to think that, somehow, the challenges that we face are applicable just to the UK. There is no bubble. The fiscal constraints and the consequences of such stringencies are, just like the economic downturn, truly global in dimension.

O ganlyniad, yma yng Nghymru, yr ydym erbyn hyn yn wynebu sialensiau difrifol o ran cyllido ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus dros y blynyddoedd i ddod. Fodd bynnag, wrth ddeall y sialensiau hyn, mae’n gwbl dyngedfennol ein bod yn llwyr ddeall y cyd-destun yr ydym yn trafod materion o’r fath ynddo heddiw. Mae’n hollbwysig deall nad ydym ni yn y DU, ac yma yng Nghymru, yn wynebu’r sialensiau hyn mewn rhyw fath o swigen gyllidol, sy’n unigryw i’r ynysoedd hyn. Pan fyddwn yn rhoi’r newyddion i fynd neu’n darllen y penawdau, mae mor hawdd meddwl, rywsut, mai dim ond i’r DU y mae’r sialensiau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu yn berthnasol. Nid oes swigen. Mae’r cyfyngiadau cyllidol a chanlyniadau mesurau llym o’r fath, yn yr un ffordd â’r dirywiad economaidd, yn wirioneddol fyd-eang eu dimensiwn.

Eleanor Burnham: Would you not accept that we are in a worse position here than many countries are? Even in Romania, where my daughter lives, the IMF has stepped in to give money to help with liquidity, because it can lend to businesses We cannot even do that at the moment, because no-one is lending properly.

Eleanor Burnham: Oni fyddech yn derbyn ein bod mewn gwaeth sefyllfa yma na llawer o wledydd? Hyd yn oed yn Rwmania, lle mae fy merch yn byw, mae’r IMF wedi camu i mewn i roi arian i helpu gyda hylifedd, gan ei bod yn gallu benthyca i fusnesau. Ni allwn hyd yn oed wneud hynny ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd nad oes neb yn benthyca o ddifrif.

Lesley Griffiths: I do not agree with you on that. As I said, we are not on our own; it is truly global.

Lesley Griffiths: Nid wyf yn cyd-weld â chi ar hynny. Fel y dywedais, nid ydym ar ein pen ein hunain; mae’n sefyllfa wirioneddol fyd-eang.

Every one of the European union’s 27 governments acknowledges that the downturn has taken its toll on the public finances. They are all, without exception, being forced to take radical remedial action at the moment. However, this is not only true of Europe. On 21 April, President Obama held his first ever full cabinet meeting. The first item on the agenda for that meeting was to order the heads of the various federal agencies in the US to shave $100 million off their administration costs. Public spending is under pressure around the globe. However, the difference between the dilemma relating to public finances and those relating to the

Mae pob un o 27 llywodraeth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn cydnabod bod y dirywiad wedi effeithio ar gyllid cyhoeddus. Mae pob un ohonynt, yn ddieithriad, yn cael eu gorfodi i gymryd camau adferol radical ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hyn yn wir am Ewrop yn unig. Ar 21 Ebrill, cynhaliodd yr Arlywydd Obama y cyfarfod cyntaf erioed o’i gabinet llawn. Yr eitem gyntaf ar yr agenda yn y cyfarfod hwnnw oedd gorchymyn i benaethiaid y gwahanol asiantaethau ffederal yn yr UDA i dorri $100 miliwn oddi ar eu costau gweinyddol. Mae gwariant cyhoeddus dan bwysau ym mhob rhan o’r byd. Fodd bynnag, y gwahaniaeth

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wider economy is that, on public spending, we have the solutions in our own hands.

rhwng y benbleth sy’n gysylltiedig â chyllid cyhoeddus a’r hyn sy’n gysylltiedig â’r economi ehangach yw bod yr ateb, o safbwynt gwariant cyhoeddus, yn ein dwylo ni.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank Lesley for taking an intervention. Surely, the dilemma is having confidence in the administration to deliver on the figures that it puts forward. In the pre-budget statement in November, the Chancellor indicated that the borrowing requirement would be £118 billion for this financial year, but, as it turns out, it will be £175 billion. Do you have confidence in the figures that the Chancellor has put forward on borrowing and on growth?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolchaf i Lesley am dderbyn ymyriad. Yn amlwg, y benbleth yw bod â ffydd yn y weinyddiaeth i gyflawni ar y ffigurau y mae’n eu rhoi gerbron. Yn y datganiad rhag-gyllidebol ym mis Tachwedd, awgrymodd y Canghellor y byddai’r gofyniad benthyca’n £118 biliwn am y flwyddyn ariannol hon, ond, fel y gwyddom bellach, bydd yn £175 biliwn. A oes gennych ffydd yn y ffigurau a roddwyd gan y Canghellor ar fenthyca ac ar dwf?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I do have confidence in the figures. I will not take any rhetoric from the Tories. We are still waiting to hear what you would do.

Lesley Griffiths: Oes, mae gennyf ffydd yn y ffigurau. Nid wyf am oddef unrhyw rethreg gan y Torïaid. Yr ydym yn dal i aros i glywed beth fyddech chi’n ei wneud.

The question here is whether we simply cut, as proposed by the Tories, or do we deliver public services in a smarter, more efficient, more intelligent way. I suggest—and I am confident that the people of Wales would agree—that the latter would be hugely preferable. Just like the parallel economic situation, which is taking its toll on the Welsh economy, the issue of public finances will also test the mettle of the Welsh Assembly Government and the Assembly. Importantly, the people of Wales fully understand the predicament that we now face. They know that we are now presenting challenges as a result of fiscal necessity and not political incompetence.

Y cwestiwn yma yw a ydym yn cwtogi, fel y mae’r Torïaid yn ei gynnig, ynteu a ydym yn darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mewn ffordd fwy clyfar, mwy effeithlon a mwy deallus. Awgrymaf—ac yr wyf yn hyderus y byddai pobl Cymru yn cytuno—y byddent yn dewis yr opsiwn olaf. Yn union fel y sefyllfa economaidd gyfatebol, sy’n cael effaith andwyol ar economi Cymru, bydd cyllid cyhoeddus yn profi gwytnwch Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r Cynulliad hefyd. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw bod pobl Cymru yn deall y sefyllfa anodd sy’n ein hwynebu. Maent yn deall ein bod yn wynebu heriau sy’n deillio o anghenraid ariannol ac nid o flerwch gwleidyddol.

The way in which we, as political parties, approach these issues will be stark and in great contrast. From the ‘One Wales’ perspective, the debate on finding smarter ways to deliver public services for Wales in the future has already begun. We are addressing it through Beecham, as we heard again yesterday in a statement from the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery. Contrast that with the approach of the opposition parties. It is over a week since the Chancellor delivered his budget and, like the rest of Wales, I am still waiting to hear one concrete, positive, coherent or sensible proposal from the mouth of a Tory politician.

Bydd sut y byddwn, fel pleidiau gwleidyddol, yn mynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn yn gwrthgyferbynnu ac yn hollol wahanol. O safbwynt ‘Cymru’n Un’, mae’r ddadl i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd gwell o ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol wedi dechrau eisoes. Yr ydym yn rhoi sylw i’r mater drwy Beecham, fel y clywsom eto ddoe mewn datganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus. Cymharwch hynny ag ymagwedd y gwrthbleidiau. Mae dros wythnos wedi mynd heibio ers i’r Canghellor gyflwyno’i gyllideb ac, fel gweddill Cymru, yr wyf yn dal i aros i

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Why? Because you have nothing to say. glywed un cynnig pendant, positif, dealladwy neu synhwyrol o enau gwleidydd Torïaidd. Pam? Am nad oes gennych ddim i’w ddweud.

Mark Isherwood: This was a dishonest budget from the ‘Darling Duds of Brown’ and a ‘Brown and Bust’ Prime Minister. As we have heard, we face the worst recession, the fastest rising unemployment and the worst public finances seen in the UK since the second world war. I am sorry to see you laughing at these facts, because people are paying the price, Alun.

Mark Isherwood: Yr oedd hi’n gyllideb anonest gan y ‘Darling Duds of Brown’ a Phrif Weinidog ‘Brown and Bust’. Fel y clywsom, yr ydym yn wynebu’r dirwasgiad gwaethaf, y cynnydd cyflymaf mewn diweithdra a’r cyllid cyhoeddus gwaethaf a brofwyd yn y DU ers yr ail ryfel byd. Gresynaf wrth eich gweld yn chwerthin ar ben y ffeithiau hyn, oherwydd mae pobl yn gorfod talu’r pris, Alun.

The solution offered was hidden spending cuts, Neverland forecasts discredited by the International Monetary Fund and a secret tax bombshell that will hit every family. What a horrible, horrendous mess and they cannot say that we did not warn them. Early in the last Assembly, I stated that the economic reality was that Wales, like Britain, was living on the never-never, and that if Gordon Brown kept increasing public spending faster than economic growth as more than a short-term measure, there would be trouble ahead, a price to pay and a day of reckoning for us all—and you laughed at me.

Yr ateb a gynigiwyd oedd toriadau cudd mewn gwariant, rhagolygon Gwlad Byth Bythoedd a ddifrïwyd gan y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol ac ergyd dreth gudd a fydd yn taro pob teulu. Am lanast ofnadwy, dychrynllyd ac ni allant honni nad oeddem wedi eu rhybuddio. Yn gynnar yn y Cynulliad diwethaf, dywedais mai’r gwir economaidd oedd bod Cymru, fel Prydain, yn byw ar fenthyca, ac os oedd Gordon Brown yn dal ati i gynyddu gwariant cyhoeddus yn gyflymach na thwf economaidd fel rhywbeth mwy na mesur tymor byr, y byddai helyntion yn ein hwynebu, pris y byddai’n rhaid ei dalu ac y byddem yn cael ein dwyn i gyfrif a’ch ymateb oedd chwerthin am fy mhen.

We now face gargantuan cuts in the Welsh budget next year, putting vital public services at risk. For Gordon Brown to tell the Welsh Labour conference last weekend that you do not cut public expenditure at a time like this is a sick joke. After 16 years of economic growth, a doubled budget, billions in European funding and almost £200 million committed to tackling community deprivation, Morgan and his dogmatic drones have delivered wasted opportunities instead of improved outcomes.

Yr ydym yn awr yn wynebu toriadau enfawr yng nghyllideb Cymru y flwyddyn nesaf, gan beryglu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hanfodol. Yr oedd clywed Gordon Brown yn dweud wrth gynhadledd Llafur Cymru y penwythnos diwethaf na ddylech gwtogi ar wariant cyhoeddus ar adeg fel hyn yn jôc ddi-chwaeth. Ar ôl 16 mlynedd o dwf economaidd, cyllideb wedi’i dyblu, biliynau mewn cyllid Ewropeaidd a bron i £200 miliwn wedi’i ymrwymo i fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd cymunedol, mae Morgan a’i rwnan dogmatig wedi gwastraffu cyfleoedd yn hytrach na chreu gwelliannau.

Joyce Watson: I gladly intervene. I note that you said that we ought not to be borrowing. I also note that your party has rejected the £20 billion fiscal stimulus package that we have put in place. It is a fiscal package that has delivered £145 in tax cuts for 22 million basic-rate taxpayers and a reduction in VAT

Joyce Watson: Yr wyf yn falch o gael ymyrryd. Nodaf eich bod wedi dweud na ddylem fod yn benthyca. Nodaf hefyd fod eich plaid wedi gwrthod y pecyn gwerth £20 biliwn a gyflwynwyd gennym i ysgogi’r economi. Mae’n becyn ariannol sydd wedi arwain at £145 o doriadau treth i 22 miliwn o

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of 2.5 per cent, which is worth £275. I know what you have rejected; what I want to hear is what you would do to help people. It is a fact that, if we had had fiscal stimulus—and I want you to agree with this—we might have saved 300,000 jobs in the 1990s.

bobl sy’n talu’r dreth ar y gyfradd sylfaenol a gostyngiad o 2.5 y cant mewn TAW, sydd werth £275. Gwn beth ydych wedi’i wrthod; yr hyn hoffwn ei glywed yw beth fyddech yn ei wneud i helpu pobl. Mae’n ffaith, petaem wedi cael ysgogiad ariannol—ac yr wyf am ichi gytuno â hyn—efallai y gallem fod wedi achub 300,000 o swyddi yn y 1990au.

5.20 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. That was a very long intervention. I apologise, and will give you extra time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Yr oedd hwn yn ymyriad maith iawn. Ymddiheuraf, a rhoddaf amser ychwanegol ichi.

Mark Isherwood: Given the length of the intervention, I will not answer but I will address those points later.

Mark Isherwood: Ac ystyried hyd yr ymyriad, nid wyf am ateb ond rhoddaf sylw i’r pwyntiau hynny yn y man.

The value of goods and services produced per head of population in Wales is now lower than in any other UK nation or region, and the gap is widening. The First Minister takes cold comfort from gross domestic household incomes, which reveal that Wales remains third from bottom among 12 UK nations and regions. Across Wales, families face rising unemployment and rising housing repossessions. There are 541,000 working-aged people in Wales who are now not in work. When the Conservatives left office, the UK received the second-highest inward investment on the planet, and Wales received more of this than any other UK nation or region. However, we are now in ninth place out of 12 in terms of projects delivered. What a record of failure that is.

Mae gwerth y nwyddau a’r gwasanaethau a gynhyrchir y pen o’r boblogaeth yng Nghymru yn awr yn is nag mewn unrhyw genedl neu ranbarth arall o’r DU, ac mae’r bwlch yn agor. Mae’r Prif Weinidog yn cysuro’i hun gyda’r ffigurau ar gyfer incymau aelwydydd domestig crynswth, sy’n dangos bod Cymru yn parhau’n drydydd o’r gwaelod o blith 12 cenedl a rhanbarth y DU. Ledled Cymru, mae teuluoedd yn wynebu cynnydd mewn diweithdra ac yn nifer y cartrefi sy’n cael eu hadfeddiannu. Erbyn hyn mae 541,000 o bobl oed gweithio yng Nghymru nad ydynt yn gweithio. Pan adawodd y Ceidwadwyr y Llywodraeth, yr oedd y DU yn cael y mewnfuddsoddiad ail uchaf yn y byd, ac yr oedd Cymru yn cael mwy ohono nag unrhyw genedl neu ranbarth arall o’r DU. Erbyn hyn, fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn y nawfed safle allan o 12 o ran y prosiectau a gwblhawyd. Dyna ichi arwydd o fethiant.

Rhodri’s neanderthal nuts failed to recognise that it is easy to spend other people’s money, but that the difficult bit is spending it well. As every successful private and voluntary sector organisation knows, the trick is to maximise customer service for the minimum efficient cost. If the Government had spent less time telling others how to go about their business—people who knew better anyhow—and less time increasing the amount of regulation rather than improving it, perhaps we would not be in this mess today.

Methodd ffyliaid neanderthalaidd Rhodri â deall ei bod yn hawdd gwario arian pobl eraill, ond mai’r gamp yw ei wario’n ddoeth. Fel y gwŷr pob sefydliad preifat a gwirfoddol llwyddiannus, y gamp yw cael y gwasanaeth cwsmeriaid gorau am y gost isaf posibl. Petai’r Llywodraeth wedi treulio llai o amser yn dweud wrth bawb arall sut i fynd ati i redeg eu busnes—pobl a oedd yn gwybod yn well beth bynnag—a llai o amser yn cynyddu baich rheoliadau yn hytrach na’u gwella, efallai na fyddem yn y llanast hwn heddiw.

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In the two days between the budget cuts being revealed and the Welsh Labour conference, this Welsh Government cynically announced the JEREMIE scheme—a business aid scheme first announced last November with the promise that the details would be revealed shortly. It is too late now for the businesses that have gone bust and the thousands of people who have lost their jobs since then.

Yn y ddau ddiwrnod rhwng datgelu’r toriadau yn y gyllideb a chynhadledd Llafur Cymru, bu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ddigon sinigaidd i gyhoeddi’r cynllun JEREMIE—cynllun cymorth busnes a gyhoeddwyd gyntaf fis Tachwedd y llynedd gyda’r addewid y byddai’r manylion yn cael eu datgelu’n fuan. Mae’n rhy hwyr bellach i’r busnesau sydd wedi methu ac i’r miloedd o bobl sydd wedi colli eu gwaith ers hynny.

Yesterday, Ann Jones resorted to scaremongering by claiming that a Conservative UK Government would cut the funding for the Airbus A400M project, despite the shadow Secretary of State for Defence categorically denying this.

Ddoe, dewisodd Ann Jones godi bwganod drwy honni y byddai Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn y DU yn cwtogi ar yr arian a fyddai ar gael ar gyfer y prosiect Airbus A400M, er bod Ysgrifennydd Amddiffyn yr wrthblaid wedi gwadu hynny’n llwyr.

Lesley Griffiths rose— Lesley Griffiths a gododd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Will you take an intervention?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?

Mark Isherwood: We are short of time, and because your colleague spoke for so long, I have to reject it.

Mark Isherwood: Mae amser yn brin, ac am fod eich cyd-Aelod wedi siarad am gyhyd, rhaid imi ei wrthod.

The Federation of Small Businesses in north Wales has told me that banks are not helping its members access the enterprise finance guarantee scheme. Therefore, perhaps we should not be surprised by claims made by a whistleblower from the Welsh Government’s Department for the Economy and Transport regarding ministerial refusal to meaningfully engage with the UK Government on stimulating bank lending to Wales’s businesses, favouring instead the lending of public money from the Welsh Government direct to businesses.

Mae’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn y Gogledd wedi dweud wrthyf nad yw banciau’n helpu eu haelodau i fanteisio ar y cynllun gwarant cyllid menter. Felly, efallai na ddylem fod wedi’n synnu gan yr honiadau a wnaethpwyd gan chwythwr chwiban o Adran yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad bod yr adran yn gwrthod ymwneud mewn modd ystyrlon â Llywodraeth y DU i ysgogi benthyciadau gan fanciau i brif fusnesau Cymru, gan ddewis yn hytrach fenthyca arian cyhoeddus gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad yn uniongyrchol i fusnesau.

To help victims of the recession, a UK Conservative Government would support savers and pensioners, would save jobs with a £50 billion loan guarantee scheme, would help small businesses with cash flow and would reduce employment costs. It would also establish an office for budget responsibility, so that no Labour Government could bankrupt us again.

Er mwyn helpu’r sawl sydd wedi dioddef o ganlyniad i’r dirwasgiad, byddai Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn y DU yn cynorthwyo’r sawl sy’n cynilo a phensiynwyr, byddai’n achub swyddi gyda chynllun gwarant benthyciadau gwerth £50 biliwn, byddai’n cynorthwyo busnesau bach gyda’u llif arian a byddai’n lleihau costau cyflogi. Byddai hefyd yn sefydlu swyddfa ar gyfer cyfrifoldeb cyllidebol, fel na fyddai modd i Lywodraeth Lafur ein gwneud yn fethdalwyr eto.

The Welsh Conservatives would also cut Byddai’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig hefyd yn

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council tax bills for pensioners, would reduce business rates for small businesses and would increase the social housing grant to stimulate the construction industry and build new affordable homes.

lleihau biliau’r dreth gyngor i bensiynwyr, byddai’n lleihau ardrethi busnes i fusnesau bach a byddai’n cynyddu’r grant tai cymdeithasol i ysgogi’r diwydiant adeiladu ac i adeiladu tai fforddiadwy newydd.

As the Confederation of British Industry Wales has said, we must pursue public sector reform and culture change, adding that:

Fel y dywedodd Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain Cymru, rhaid mynd ati i ddiwygio’r sector cyhoeddus a newid y diwylliant, gan ychwanegu:

‘frontline cuts in services may not be necessary if the Assembly Government now redoubles its efforts to work with the private sector to deliver innovative solutions that combine the best that the public, private and third sectors have to offer’.

‘efallai na fydd angen toriadau mewn gwasanaethau rheng flaen os bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymdrechu o ddifrif i weithio gyda’r sector preifat i sicrhau atebion arloesol sy’n cyfuno’r gorau sydd gan y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat a’r trydydd sector i’w gynnig’.

As the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has said, we need a stronger Government partnership with voluntary organisations to support people back into the workplace. After 12 hard years of Labour in London and 10 in Cardiff, we need change.

Fel y dywedodd Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, mae angen i’r Llywodraeth â mudiadau gwirfoddol gael partneriaeth gryfach er mwyn helpu pobl yn ôl i’r gweithle. Ar ôl 12 mlynedd anodd o Lafur yn Llundain a 10 yng Nghaerdydd, mae angen newid.

David Lloyd: I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate. The motion asks us to note with concern the implications for public spending in Wales following the budget delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 22 April 2009. In Plaid, we certainly share those concerns, and we will be voting for this motion.

David Lloyd: Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyfrannu at y ddadl hon. Mae’r cynnig yn gofyn inni nodi â phryder y goblygiadau i wariant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn dilyn y gyllideb a gyflwynwyd gan Ganghellor y Trysorlys ar 22 Ebrill 2009. Yr ydym yn sicr yn rhannu’r pryderon hynny ym Mhlaid Cymru, a byddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig hwn.

Many superlatives have been used to describe the budget, the debt and the borrowing. With a £175 billion borrowing requirement in the UK budget this year, public debt will reach £1.2 trillion. The UK Government’s borrowing now is more than the total sum of all borrowing of all previous UK Governments since Governments began over 300 years ago. Future generations have been saddled with huge debt, and public services in Wales have been threatened with cuts to the tune of £1 billion—a figure that is growing—with no discernible recovery plan to balance the books in the short or medium term. This is not the way to run an economy—saddling future generations with the huge costs of paying interest on all of this borrowing. The interest payments alone are

Mae llawer o eiriau eithafol wedi’u defnyddio i ddisgrifio’r gyllideb, y ddyled a’r benthyca. Gyda gofyniad benthyca o £175 biliwn yng nghyllideb y DU eleni, bydd y ddyled gyhoeddus yn cyrraedd £1.2 triliwn. Mae benthyciadau Llywodraeth y DU bellach yn fwy na chyfanswm holl fenthyciadau pob Llywodraeth flaenorol yn y DU ers i Lywodraethau ddod i fodolaeth dros 300 mlynedd yn ôl. Bydd cenedlaethau’r dyfodol yn gorfod ysgwyddo dyledion anferthol, ac mae gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn cael eu bygwth gan doriadau o £1 biliwn—ffigur sy’n cynyddu—heb unrhyw gynllun adfer synhwyrol i gadw trefn ar y cyfrifon yn y tymor byr neu ganolig. Nid dyma’r ffordd o redeg economi—gorfodi cenedlaethau’r dyfodol i ysgwyddo’r costau enfawr o dalu

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projected to exceed UK education spend by 2013. This is not the way to run an economy. The banks have been bailed out and protected, but Wales and its public services, health and education—linked as we are, in the union—have no such certainties.

llog ar yr holl fenthyca hwn. Amcangyfrifir y bydd y taliadau llog yn unig yn fwy na gwariant y DU ar addysg erbyn 2013. Nid dyna sut mae rhedeg economi. Mae’r banciau wedi cael eu hachub a’u hamddiffyn, ond nid oes gan Gymru a’i gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, iechyd ac addysg—gan ei bod ynghlwm wrth yr undeb—y fath sicrwydd.

Lorraine Barrett: Dai, do you believe that Wales should have its own nationalised banks and that we could manage to go it alone on our own finances?

Lorraine Barrett: Dai, a ydych chi’n credu y dylai Cymru gael ei banciau gwladoledig ei hun ac y gallem ddygymod ar ein pen ein hunain gyda’n cyllid ein hunain?

David Lloyd: People always say that an independent Wales would be poor—we are poor now—and that an independent Wales would be unable to find its way financially in the world, that we would always be borrowing and be in debt, but you could say, ‘Just like the UK’.

David Lloyd: Mae pobl yn dweud drwy’r amser y byddai Cymru annibynnol yn dlawd—yr ydym yn dlawd yn awr—ac na fyddai Cymru annibynnol yn gallu cynnal ei hun yn ariannol yn y byd, y byddem yn benthyca byth a hefyd ac mewn dyled, ond gallech ddweud, ‘Yn union fel y DU’.

Nick Bourne: What is the answer then? Nick Bourne: Felly beth yw’r ateb?

David Lloyd: Keep on listening, Nick. Wales and its public services have no certainty in terms of protection from any cuts. Surely such a disastrously dire situation demands a fundamental re-examination of the UK’s view of the world. The UK can no longer count itself as a super-power. It should stop pretending to be a super-power and stop getting involved in wars around the globe, because we just cannot afford it. The UK should scrap the Trident replacement programme, which has a projected cost of about £25 billion and a total lifetime cost of £75 billion, and it should scrap identification cards, which have an estimated and rising cost of £5 billion. The UK needs to change its view of the world. UK plc needs just such a recovery plan to plug the black holes in the current budget. Instead of postponing decisions and saddling future generations with debt, which will threaten Wales, as a part of the union, there is a need to look again at priorities, to ditch Trident and identification cards, and to protect our public services, such as health, education and social services, here in Wales.

David Lloyd: Daliwch i wrando, Nick. Nid oes gan Gymru a’i gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sicrwydd o gwbl o ran cael ei diogelu rhag unrhyw doriadau. Mae’n amlwg bod sefyllfa mor drychinebus yn golygu bod yn rhaid edrych o’r newydd ar olwg y DU ar y byd. Ni all y DU bellach edrych arni ei hun fel arch bŵer. Dylai roi’r gorau i gymryd arni ei bod yn archbŵer a rhoi’r gorau i ymyrryd mewn rhyfeloedd ym mhob rhan o’r byd, oherwydd ni allwn ei fforddio. Dylai’r DU roi’r gorau i’r rhaglen i adnewyddu Trident, y rhagwelir a fydd yn costio oddeutu £25 biliwn a chyfanswm o £75 biliwn yn ystod ei oes, a dylai ddiddymu cardiau adnabod, a fydd yn costio £5 biliwn yn ôl yr amcangyfrifon, gyda’r gost yn dal i godi. Mae angen i’r DU newid ei hagwedd tuag at y byd. Mae angen cynllun adfer o’r fath ar DU ccc i lenwi’r tyllau du yn y gyllideb gyfredol. Yn hytrach na gohirio penderfyniadau a gorfodi cenedlaethau’r dyfodol i ysgwyddo’r dyledion, a fydd yn bygwth Cymru, fel rhan o’r undeb, mae angen edrych eto ar flaenoriaethau, a rhoi’r gorau i Trident a chardiau adnabod, ac amddiffyn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, fel iechyd, addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yma yng Nghymru.

Make no mistake, any future Tory Peidiwch â chael eich twyllo, bydd unrhyw

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Government will make cuts too. A Government of thrift is what David Cameron has promised. The pledge from the Tories is for a Government of thrift and cuts. We have had that in the past from the Tories in Wales and we will have it again. In conclusion, there is legitimate cause for concern regarding public spending in Wales after the budget and we certainly will be supporting the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Lywodraeth Dorïaidd yn y dyfodol yn cyflwyno toriadau hefyd. Llywodraeth ddarbodus yw’r hyn mae David Cameron wedi’i addo. Addewid y Torïaid yw Llywodraeth o ddarbodaeth a thoriadau. Yr ydym wedi profi hynny gan y Torïaid yn y gorffennol yng Nghymru, a dyna a gawn eto hefyd. I gloi, mae achos gwirioneddol i bryderu ynghylch gwariant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn dilyn y gyllideb ac yn sicr byddwn yn cefnogi’r mesur. Diolch yn fawr.

Nick Bourne: Ahead of the forthcoming European elections, Paul Murphy talked at the weekend about a battle of ideas. He said that Labour should stand up for its record in Government. Labour certainly knows a thing or two about breaking records. Last month saw the fastest rise in unemployment in the United Kingdom on record and a record number of children are not in education, employment or training. We have suffered disproportionately in Wales from both of those. Labour has just announced record levels of borrowing that will leave every one of us owing more than £22,000 on the Government’s behalf. To listen to some members of the Government, you would think that it was a matter of great personal pride that that sort of money is owed by every single person in the country. Labour has racked up record levels of debt that the Institute for Fiscal Studies says will not be paid back until 2032. In other words, they are saddling generations to come with staggering and previously unseen levels of debt. Indeed, they are set to borrow more in the next two years than every single Government before them, including Labour ones, put together. That is some record indeed. The Secretary of State for Wales went on to say, perhaps rather embarrassingly, that the whole of Wales owes Rhodri Morgan an enormous debt. I think that he got his sentence structure rather mixed up: an enormous debt is owed, but it is not owed to Rhodri Morgan—some of it may be because of Rhodri Morgan, but that is a different issue.

Nick Bourne: Cyn yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd sydd o’n blaenau, bu Paul Murphy yn sôn dros y Sul am frwydr o syniadau. Dywedodd y dylai Llafur sefyll dros ei record mewn Llywodraeth. Mae Llafur yn sicr yn gwybod un neu ddau o bethau am dorri record. Yn y mis diwethaf gwelwyd y cynnydd cyflymaf a gofnodwyd erioed mewn diweithdra yn y Deyrnas Unedig a’r nifer uchaf o blant nad ydynt mewn addysg, cyflogaeth na hyfforddiant i gael ei gofnodi. Yr ydym wedi dioddef yn anghymesur yng Nghymru o’r ddau hyn. Mae Llafur newydd gyhoeddi’r lefelau uchaf o fenthyca a fydd yn golygu bod gan bob un ohonom ddyled o £22,000 ar ran y Llywodraeth. Wrth wrando ar rai o aelodau’r Llywodraeth byddech yn credu ei fod yn fater o falchder personol mawr bod y fath swm o arian yn ddyledus gan bob unigolyn yn y wlad. Mae Llafur wedi mynd i’r fath ddyled, yn ôl y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid fel na fydd y ddyled wedi’i thalu tan 2032. Mewn geiriau eraill, bydd y cenedlaethau i ddod yn gorfod ysgwyddo lefelau anferthol o ddyledion nas gwelwyd eu tebyg o’r blaen. Yn wir, maent yn bwriadu benthyca mwy yn y ddwy flynedd nesaf na phob Llywodraeth arall gyda’i gilydd, gan gynnwys rhai Llafur. Mae hon yn wir yn record i ryfeddu ati. Aeth Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn ei flaen i ddweud, efallai gyda rhywfaint o gywilydd, bod ar Gymru gyfan ddyled fawr i Rhodri Morgan. Credaf ei fod wedi drysu gyda threfn ei frawddeg: mae dyled enfawr yn ddyledus, ond nid yw’n ddyledus i Rhodri Morgan—gall peth ohoni fod yn ddyledus oherwydd Rhodri Morgan, ond mae hynny’n fater gwahanol.

We, in Wales, have to take a £416 million hit as a result of the mismanagement of the economy. Due to the fact that Labour

Yr ydym ni, yng Nghymru, wedi’n taro gan £416 miliwn o ganlyniad i gamreoli’r economi. Gan nad oedd y Llywodraethau

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Governments in Westminster and Wales did not put money aside in the good years, we now have to suffer these cuts in the bad years, when we can least afford them—all because Labour cannot run a budget.

Llafur yn San Steffan a Chymru wedi rhoi arian ar y naill ochr yn ystod y blynyddoedd da, yr ydym yn awr yn gorfod dioddef y toriadau hyn yn y blynyddoedd anodd, ar yr union adeg pan ydym leiaf atebol i’w fforddio—a hyn i gyd am na all Llafur gadw trefn ar ei chyllideb.

5.30 p.m.

Labour always leaves office with public finances in tatters, and this time will be no exception. Each and every Labour Government simply runs out of other people’s money in the end, and that is what is happening here. Driven by the ridiculous notion of the Prime Minister, formerly the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that, somehow, it had bucked the financial cycle and abolished boom and bust, it did not put money aside when it should have done, in the good years, and it has left Britain and Wales dangerously exposed in harsher times. Gordon Brown is also the man who wrecked our pension system and deregulated the banking sector.

Bydd Llafur bob amser yn gadael Llywodraeth a’r sefyllfa o ran arian cyhoeddus yn racs, ac ni fydd y tro hwn yn eithriad. Mae pob Llywodraeth Lafur yn gwario pob ceiniog o arian pobl eraill yn y diwedd, a dyna sy’n digwydd yma. Wedi’i hysgogi gan syniad hurt y Prif Weinidog, sef Canghellor y Trysorlys cyn hynny, ei bod rywsut wedi gwrthsefyll y cylch ariannol a chael gwared â ffyniant a methiant, ni roddodd arian o’r neilltu pan ddylasai, yn y blynyddoedd da, ac mae wedi gadael Prydain a Chymru yn beryglus o agored i niwed mewn cyfnod anos. Gordon Brown hefyd yw’r dyn a ddistrywiodd ein system bensiynau ac a ddadreoleiddiodd y sector bancio.

Let us look at the consequences for Wales. A £216 million revenue cut is enough to pay for 9,000 nurses or 11,000 new teachers. We sought to be persuaded by the Minister that, somehow, these efficiency savings would not hit front-line services. I remain to be convinced about that. Perhaps he could convince me that that sort of money can be saved without services being cut, but nothing that he has said so far has done so. He has also said that the £200 million loss in capital spending is not going to hit front-line services. If that is the case, we have to question why these sorts of savings were not made previously. That sort of money could build 50 primary schools or six secondary schools at a time when the school repair backlog is running into millions of pounds. It is enough to fund four hospitals or 25 health and wellbeing centres or to put 10 early years centres in every local authority in Wales. Those are the public services that stand to be hit because of Labour’s cuts, brought on by Labour’s economic mismanagement.

Gadewch inni edrych ar y canlyniadau i Gymru. Mae toriad mewn refeniw o £216 miliwn yn ddigon i dalu am 9,000 o nyrsys neu 11,000 o athrawon newydd. Ceisiasom gymryd ein perswadio gan y Gweinidog na fyddai’r arbedion effeithlonrwydd hyn, rywsut, yn taro gwasanaethau rheng flaen. Nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi eto am hynny. Efallai y gallai fy argyhoeddi bod modd arbed arian o’r fath heb dorri gwasanaethau, ond nid oes dim y mae wedi’i ddweud hyd yma wedi gwneud hynny. Mae wedi dweud hefyd na fydd y golled o £200 miliwn mewn gwariant cyfalaf yn taro gwasanaethau rheng flaen. Os felly y mae, rhaid inni ofyn pam na wnaethpwyd arbedion o’r mathau hyn o’r blaen. Gallai arian o’r fath godi 50 o ysgolion cynradd neu chwe ysgol uwchradd ar adeg pan yw’r ôl-groniad o waith atgyweirio ar ysgolion yn rhedeg i filiynau o bunnoedd. Mae’n ddigon i ariannu pedwar ysbyty neu 25 o ganolfannau iechyd a lles neu i greu 10 o ganolfannau blynyddoedd cynnar ym mhob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Y rheiny yw’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a allai gael eu taro oherwydd toriadau Llafur, a achoswyd gan gamreoli economaidd Llafur.

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The First Minister has been honest enough to admit that he cannot guarantee that there will not be cuts to services and job losses in the public sector. That candour does not seem to be shared by the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery, although the former Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain, said that we had not gone far enough with the efficiency savings. That begs the question of why those efficiency savings were not pushed forward when he was Secretary of State and why he did not tell Rhodri Morgan about his lack of faith in the savings at that stage. We have been told that efficiency savings—spending cuts by another name—can be made. We have been told that re-engineering can be done, namely cutting jobs and services, and that the brunt of this will be borne by the rich, as Labour has brought in this 50p tax rate. The reality is that the higher national insurance contributions, postponed until after the next election, will affect the man and woman in the street. It will raise far more and will hit the middle and working classes disproportionately—it will hit them much harder than those so-called increases in tax will hit the rich. That is quite apart from the tax increases on fuel, alcohol and cigarettes. Therefore, every family in this country will be hit hard by Labour’s mismanagement, and these debts will not be paid back until 2032. Children who are being born now will be 23 by the time we have cleared those debts. That is the scale of what we have at the moment.

Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi bod yn ddigon gonest i gydaddef na all warantu na fydd toriadau mewn gwasanaethau a cholledion swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus. Nid yw’n ymddangos bod y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus yn rhannu’r gonestrwydd hwnnw, er i gyn-Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Peter Hain, ddweud nad oeddem wedi mynd yn ddigon pell â’r arbedion effeithlonrwydd. Rhaid gofyn yn sgil hynny pam na hyrwyddwyd yr arbedion effeithlonrwydd hynny pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a pham na ddywedodd wrth Rhodri Morgan am ei ddiffyg ffydd yn yr arbedion bryd hynny. Dywedwyd wrthym y gellir gwneud arbedion effeithlonrwydd—gair arall am doriadau mewn gwariant. Dywedwyd wrthym y gellir ailgynllunio, sef torri swyddi a gwasanaethau, ac y bydd y cyfoethog yn dwyn y baich trymaf, gan fod Llafur wedi cyflwyno’r gyfradd dreth 50c hon. Y gwir yw y bydd y cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol uwch, a ohiriwyd tan ar ôl yr etholiad nesaf, yn effeithio ar y dyn cyffredin. Bydd yn codi llawer mwy a bydd yn taro’r dosbarth canol a’r dosbarth gweithiol yn anghyfartal—bydd yn eu taro’n galetach o lawer nag y bydd y codiadau hynny yn y dreth, fel y’u gelwir, yn taro’r cyfoethog. Mae hynny heb ystyried y cynnydd mewn treth ar danwydd, alcohol a sigarennau. Felly, bydd pob teulu yn y wlad hon yn cael ei daro’n galed oherwydd camreoli Llafur, ac ni chaiff y dyledion hyn eu talu’n ôl tan 2032. Bydd plant a enir yn awr yn 23 oed erbyn inni glirio’r dyledion hynny. Dyna raddfa’r hyn sydd gennym yn awr.

Therefore, it is high time that the Assembly Government prioritised its spending plans. In the words of the CBI, it has to redouble its efforts to work with the private sector—hear, hear to that—and with the voluntary sector. As the WLGA said, it is time to make tough choices because, at present, its policies are unrealistic and unaffordable. We are suffering because of the irresponsibility of Labour, and we will have to pay the price for that for decades to come.

Felly, mae’n hen bryd i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad flaenoriaethu ei chynlluniau gwariant. Yng ngeiriau Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, rhaid iddi ailddyblu ei hymdrechion i gydweithio â’r sector preifat—amen i hynny—a’r sector gwirfoddol. Fel y dywedodd CLlLC, mae’n bryd gwneud dewisiadau anodd oherwydd, ar hyn o bryd, mae ei pholisïau’n anymarferol ac yn anfforddiadwy. Yr ydym yn dioddef oherwydd anghyfrifoldeb Llafur, a bydd yn rhaid inni dalu’r pris am hynny am ddegawdau i ddod.

Jenny Randerson: Do you remember the Jenny Randerson: A ydych yn cofio’r gair

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word ‘prudence’ being so proudly declaimed by Gordon Brown when he was Chancellor? That word has now been totally expunged from the Labour lexicon, in a rewriting of history.

‘darbodaeth’ yn cael ei draethu mor falch gan Gordon Brown pan oedd yn Ganghellor? Mae’r gair hwnnw wedi’i ddileu’n llwyr bellach o eirfa Llafur, wrth iddi ailysgrifennu hanes.

The budget announced last week was badged as a budget for jobs; in fact, it was much more a budget of re-announcements. How can a budget that will cut well over £400 million from our £15 billion block grant, which, in itself, is totally inadequate, be a budget for jobs? As we all know, Wales is heavily reliant on the public sector. If we lose jobs in the public sector, it will be of great significance to rising unemployment in this country.

Galwyd y gyllideb a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf yn gyllideb ar gyfer swyddi; mewn gwirionedd, yr oedd yn gyllideb o ailgyhoeddiadau i raddau mwy o lawer. Sut y gall cyllideb a fydd yn torri ymhell dros £400 miliwn o’n grant bloc o £15 biliwn, sydd, ohono’i hun, yn gwbl annigonol, fod yn gyllideb ar gyfer swyddi? Fel yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod, mae Cymru’n dibynnu’n fawr ar y sector cyhoeddus. Os collwn swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus, bydd hynny’n cyfrannu’n sylweddol at gynnydd mewn diweithdra yn y wlad hon.

Job cuts are inevitable as a result of that budget, and let us abandon the concept that these will be backroom and back-office jobs, because back-office jobs are jobs and are crucial to the future of services for people in this country. I was looking earlier today at the history of the cuts to jobcentres, which now look totally inappropriate. I remember the First Minister saying that these were back-office jobs and that they would not matter to the public.

Mae toriadau mewn swyddi’n anorfod o ganlyniad i’r gyllideb honno, a gadewch inni anghofio’r syniad y bydd y rhain yn swyddi’r ystafell gefn ac yn swyddi cefn swyddfa, gan fod swyddi cefn swyddfa yn swyddi ac maent yn hollbwysig i ddyfodol gwasanaethau i bobl yn y wlad hon. Yr oeddwn yn edrych yn gynharach heddiw ar hanes y toriadau mewn canolfannau gwaith, sydd bellach yn ymddangos yn hollol amhriodol. Cofiaf y Prif Weinidog yn dweud mai swyddi cefn swyddfa oedd y rhain ac na fyddent yn bwysig i’r cyhoedd.

I am glad to hear that the Conservatives have at last come up with some answers—I was delighted to hear Nick refer to the need to abandon ID cards and free prescriptions and to use more private funding. There is a bit of a contrast between Nick having the answers and the Tory frontbench in Westminster, where there has been a hollow silence as to what the answer is and what the difficult choices will be. I listened with amazement—

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod y Ceidwadwyr wedi meddwl am ychydig o atebion o’r diwedd—yr oeddwn wrth fy modd o glywed Nick yn cyfeirio at yr angen i anghofio cardiau adnabod a phresgripsiynau am ddim ac i ddefnyddio mwy o gyllid preifat. Mae ychydig o wahaniaeth rhwng Nick a’i atebion a mainc flaen y Torïaid yn San Steffan, lle y bu distawrwydd llethol o ran beth yw’r ateb a beth fydd y dewisiadau anodd. Gwrandewais dan ryfeddu—

Alun Cairns: Will you take an intervention? Alun Cairns: A wnewch dderbyn ymyriad?

Jenny Randerson: I will take an intervention in a second. I listened with amazement to William Hague on the radio at the weekend. William Hague, who is, I freely admit, rarely stuck for an answer, was seriously stuck for an answer. He just said ‘We will have the answer by the time the

Jenny Randerson: Derbyniaf ymyriad ymhen eiliad. Gwrandewais dan ryfeddu ar William Hague ar y radio dros y penwythnos. Yr oedd William Hague, sy’n anaml heb ateb i’w roi, fel yr wyf yn barod i gyfaddef, yn methu’n lân â meddwl am ateb. Y cwbl a ddywedodd oedd ‘Bydd yr ateb gennym

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election comes’.

erbyn adeg yr etholiad’.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to Jenny Randerson for giving way, but I think that she has misrepresented the situation. The Conservative party in Westminster has called for ID cards to be abandoned, and we have also talked about a different way of delivering services. As you well know, the theme since David Cameron became leader of the party is different ways of achieving the same goals, and that is what the focus will be come the next general election.

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Jenny Randerson am ildio, ond credaf ei bod wedi camddisgrifio’r sefyllfa. Mae’r blaid Geidwadol yn San Steffan wedi galw am roi’r gorau i gardiau adnabod, ac yr ydym hefyd wedi sôn am ffordd wahanol o gyflenwi gwasanaethau. Fel y gwyddoch yn iawn, y thema ers i David Cameron ddod yn arweinydd y blaid yw gwahanol ffyrdd o gyrraedd yr un nodau, ac ar hynny y bydd y pwyslais pan ddaw’r etholiad cyffredinol nesaf.

Jenny Randerson: I am glad that someone has told you, because they have not told the public. However, the public will need an answer by the time of the next election.

Jenny Randerson: Yr wyf yn falch bod rhywun wedi dweud wrthych chi, gan nad ydynt wedi dweud wrth y cyhoedd. Fodd bynnag, bydd angen ateb y cyhoedd erbyn adeg yr etholiad nesaf.

I agree with the suggestions that Nick has put forward that these are issues that we should look at in the Assembly. We must concentrate in the future on not just stemming the loss of jobs but also on ensuring that our future is more prosperous. This country has been far too impoverished in the past—we have been at the bottom of all the league tables on levels of skilled jobs, higher wages, and so on. We must look to a better future, and not just one that is not as bad as it might be. To do that, we must concentrate on skills and education. However, this Government has taken a hatchet to higher education funding and further education funding. It has done a hatchet job on higher education funding over a number of years, to the extent that universities are cutting jobs in significant numbers. This year, it has taken a hatchet to FE funding, and we heard only today of nearly 50 redundancies in one college alone. That is no way in which to build a more prosperous future, rather than a less prosperous future.

Cytunaf â’r awgrymiadau y mae Nick wedi’u cyflwyno mai’r rhain yw’r materion y dylem edrych arnynt yn y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio yn y dyfodol nid yn unig ar atal colledion swyddi ond hefyd ar sicrhau bod ein dyfodol yn fwy ffyniannus. Mae’r wlad hon wedi bod yn rhy dlawd o lawer yn y gorffennol—yr ydym wedi bod ar waelod pob cynghrair o ran lefelau swyddi crefftus, cyflogau uwch, ac yn y blaen. Rhaid inni edrych tua dyfodol gwell, ac nid un nad yw cyn waethed ag y gallai fod yn unig. Er mwyn gwneud hynny, rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar sgiliau ac addysg. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi torri cyllid addysg uwch a chyllid addysg bellach. Mae wedi torri cyllid addysg uwch dros nifer o flynyddoedd, i’r graddau bod prifysgolion yn torri nifer sylweddol o swyddi. Eleni, mae wedi torri cyllid addysg bellach, ac yr ydym yn clywed heddiw am bron 50 o ddiswyddiadau mewn un coleg yn unig. Nid yw hynny’n fodd o gwbl i greu dyfodol mwy ffyniannus, ond yn hytrach ddyfodol llai ffyniannus.

There must be more money for research and more money for small and medium-sized enterprises. There is still no giving way on the issue of a reduction in business rates, which are tremendously important to SMEs. The Government must concentrate in the future on the high growth sectors, such as renewable energy, which fits with the green

Rhaid cael mwy o arian ar gyfer ymchwil a mwy o arian ar gyfer busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint. Nid oes dim ildio byth ar y mater o ostwng trethi busnes, sy’n aruthrol o bwysig i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint. Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ganolbwyntio yn y dyfodol ar y sectorau mawr eu twf, fel ynni adnewyddadwy, sy’n cyd-fynd â’r

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jobs strategy, the IT sector and the pharmaceuticals industry. That is where the concentration must be in the future.

strategaeth swyddi gwyrdd, y sector TG a’r diwydiant fferyllol. Ar hynny y mae’n rhaid canolbwyntio yn y dyfodol.

What has been astonishing over the last six months or so has been the total lack of answers and ideas, not just from the Tory frontbench but also from Plaid Cymru. Plaid Cymru managed to hold the view that it wanted independence at the same time as wanting more money from Government. Those views are contradictory. The horrendous Brown-Darling partnerships seemed to me as if it was swimming through treacle and choking on it as they went. This week’s answers are forgotten next week. Next week’s answers are contradicted. The only people that have got it right throughout have been Vince Cable and the Liberal Democrats.

Yr hyn sydd wedi bod yn rhyfeddol dros y chwe mis diwethaf, fwy neu lai, yw’r diffyg llwyr o ran atebion a syniadau, nid yn unig o du mainc flaen y Torïaid ond o du Plaid Cymru hefyd. Llwyddodd Plaid Cymru i ddal at y safbwynt ei bod am gael annibyniaeth ar yr un pryd ag yr oedd am gael mwy o arian gan y Llywodraeth. Mae’r safbwyntiau hynny’n groes. Yr oedd yn ymddangos i mi fel petai’r bartneriaeth ofnadwy rhwng Brown a Darling yn nofio drwy driog a’u bod yn tagu arno wrth fynd ymlaen. Anghofir atebion yr wythnos hon erbyn yr wythnos nesaf. Eir yn groes i atebion yr wythnos nesaf. Yr unig rai sydd wedi’i gael yn iawn ar hyd yr amser yw Vince Cable a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.

5.40 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank my colleague, Nick Ramsay, for opening the debate on last week’s budget. This debate boils down to three elements, and I hope that the Minister will respond accordingly. One element is that of confidence in the projections that came out of the budget. I asked the Minister about this yesterday during his statement, because if we cannot have confidence in the figures in last week’s budget, what confidence can people have in the Welsh Assembly Government that it will keep to its spending commitments?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolchaf i’m cyd-Aelod, Nick Ramsay, am agor y ddadl ar gyllideb yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae tair elfen yn y ddadl hon yn y bôn, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn ymateb yn unol â hynny. Un elfen yw ymddiriedaeth yn yr amcanestyniadau a gododd o’r gyllideb. Holais y Gweinidog am hyn ddoe yn ystod ei ddatganiad, oherwydd os na allwn ymddiried yn y ffigurau sydd yng nghyllideb yr wythnos diwethaf, sut y gall pobl ymddiried yn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru y bydd yn glynu wrth ei hymrwymiadau gwariant?

Secondly, it is a matter of urgency for the Welsh Assembly Government to identify where the efficiency savings—cuts, in other words—will be implemented over the next few years. Given Wales’s high dependency on the public sector, it is of great importance that the Welsh Assembly Government engages at an early stage in the financial cycle so that it can plan accordingly to meet the challenges of the coming decade. We are talking in terms of decades to sort this mess out rather than a short, sharp shock to put the system right.

Yn ail, mater o frys i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yw nodi ymhle y bydd yr arbedion effeithlonrwydd—toriadau, mewn geiriau eraill—yn cael eu gwneud dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Gan fod Cymru yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar y sector cyhoeddus, mae’n bwysig iawn i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru weithredu’n gynnar yn y cylch ariannol fel y gall gynllunio’n unol â hynny i ateb heriau’r degawd sydd i ddod. Yr ydym yn sôn am roi trefn ar y llanastr hwn dros gyfnod o ddegawdau yn hytrach nag ysgytwad sydyn i unioni’r system.

Then there is the matter of the partnership that needs to be developed between the private, the public and the third sectors. I

Wedyn dyna fater y bartneriaeth y mae angen ei datblygu rhwng y sector preifat, y sector cyhoeddus a’r trydydd sector. Credaf ein bod

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think that we all agree on that point—it is just a matter of how you will embrace the private sector. Sadly, the Government has an ideological block to embracing the private sector, but when we look at how out of kilter our economy is, with 60 per cent of gross domestic product dependent on the public sector, we can see that it is time to embrace the private sector and the third sector to make sure that when we come out of this recession, we have balance.

ni i gyd yn gytûn ar y pwynt hwnnw—nid yw ond yn fater o’r modd y byddwch yn cynnwys y sector preifat. Gwaetha’r modd, mae rhwystr ideolegol gan y Llywodraeth rhag cynnwys y sector preifat, ond pan ystyriwn pa mor anghytbwys yw ein heconomi, a 60 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn dibynnu ar y sector cyhoeddus, gallwn weld ei bod yn bryd cynnwys y sector preifat a’r trydydd sector er mwyn sicrhau y bydd gennym gydbwysedd pan ddeuwn allan o’r dirwasgiad hwn.

I return to my opening point about having confidence in the Chancellor’s figures and in the figures that you, as the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery, and your colleagues will be working to. In his pre-budget statement some five months ago, the Chancellor indicated that the borrowing requirement for the United Kingdom would be in the region of £75 billion. That figure was already a revision of £30 billion quoted some six months earlier. We actually borrowed some £90 billion in the last financial year. Going forward, the figure for the borrowing requirement was £118 billion for this financial year. The new projection, some four months later, is of a borrowing requirement of £175 billion. That assumes that we will return to growth at the end of this calendar year, which is an assumption on which nearly every economist in the world, let alone Britain, has cast doubt. I hope that it is achievable, as I do not want to be too much of a pessimist on this issue, because the pain that has been inflicted on communities across Wales is great enough already without any more being inflicted as we progress.

Dychwelaf at y pwynt cyntaf a wneuthum am ymddiried yn ffigurau’r Canghellor ac yn y ffigurau y byddwch chi, fel y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus, a’ch cyd-Weinidogion yn gweithio ar eu sail. Yn ei ddatganiad rhag-gyllidebol tua phum mis yn ôl, nododd y Canghellor y byddai gofyniad benthyca’r Deyrnas Unedig oddeutu £75 biliwn. Yr oedd y ffigur hwnnw wedi’i adolygu eisoes ar ôl dyfynnu’r ffigur o £30 biliwn tua chwe mis ynghynt. Mewn gwirionedd, gwnaethom fenthyca tua £90 biliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf. Wrth fynd ymlaen, y ffigur ar gyfer y gofyniad benthyca oedd £118 biliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Yr amcanestyniad newydd, tua phedwar mis yn ddiweddarach, yw gofyniad benthyca o £175 biliwn. Mae hynny’n rhagdybio y bydd yr economi’n dechrau tyfu eto ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn galendr hon, a honno’n rhagdybiaeth y mae bron bob economegydd yn y byd, heb sôn am Brydain, wedi bwrw amheuaeth arni. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y gellir cyflawni hynny, gan nad wyf am fod yn rhy besimistaidd ar y mater hwn, gan fod cymunedau ledled Cymru yn dioddef digon yn barod heb achosi mwy o ddioddefaint wrth inni symud ymlaen.

We must now have clarity. We realise the enormity of the situation facing us. We realise that the efficiency savings being talked of by the Government—cuts by another name—need to be identified sooner rather than later. Are this Government’s sacred cows of free prescriptions and free school breakfasts—

Rhaid inni gael eglurder yn awr. Sylweddolwn mor ddifrifol yw’r sefyllfa sydd o’n blaen. Sylweddolwn fod angen pennu’r arbedion effeithlonrwydd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn sôn amdanynt—toriadau dan enw arall—cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl. A yw buchod cysegredig y Llywodraeth hon, sef presgripsiynau am ddim a brecwast am ddim mewn ysgolion—

David Lloyd: Can I take it that your opposition to free prescriptions means that

David Lloyd: A allaf gymryd bod eich gwrthwynebiad i bresgripsiynau am ddim yn

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you are in favour of bringing back prescription charges at £7.20 per item?

golygu eich bod o blaid dod â thaliadau presgripsiwn yn ôl ar £7.20 yr eitem?

Andrew R.T. Davies: We are in a situation where we need to get rid of gimmicks and deliver core services. [Interruption.] When 80 per cent of people who required a prescription had free prescriptions before the policy was thought of, most people regard it as a reasonable request to pay towards a prescription charge. On that basis, we would deliver an equitable settlement for the users of health services in Wales. I want those in the Welsh Assembly Government to tell me: are they prepared to protect core services and get rid of the sacred cows that have failed the people of Wales? That is what we want to know.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr ydym mewn sefyllfa lle y mae angen inni gael gwared â gimigau a chyflenwi gwasanaethau craidd. [Torri ar draws.] Gan fod 80 y cant o’r bobl yr oedd arnynt angen presgripsiwn yn cael presgripsiynau am ddim cyn meddwl am y polisi, mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn credu ei bod yn rhesymol iddynt gyfrannu at dâl presgripsiwn. Ar y sail honno, byddem yn sicrhau setliad teg i ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru. Yr wyf am i’r rheiny sydd yn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ddweud wrthyf: a ydynt yn barod i amddiffyn gwasanaethau craidd a chael gwared â’r buchod cysegredig sydd wedi siomi pobl Cymru? Hynny yr ydym am ei wybod.

All you hear from those on the Plaid Cymru benches is that their only economic solution is to get rid of Trident and abolish identity cards. I subscribe to the introduction of identity cards. You have globalised the cost of Trident over a 40 to 50-year period in giving your figure of £25 billion to £30 billion. That would make only a small dent in the national debt, and it would make numerous engineers and professionals redundant across our United Kingdom of Great Britain, which this side of the Chamber and, I believe, those on the benches to my right, support.

Y cwbl a glywch gan y rheiny ar feinciau Plaid Cymru yw mai eu hunig ateb economaidd yw cael gwared â Trident a chardiau adnabod. Yr wyf o blaid cyflwyno cardiau adnabod. Yr ydych wedi gwneud cyfanswm o gost Trident dros gyfnod o 40 i 50 mlynedd wrth roi’ch ffigur o £25 biliwn i £30 biliwn. Ni fyddai hynny ond yn gwneud tolc bach yn nyled y wlad, a byddai’n golygu diswyddo nifer mawr o beirianwyr a gweithwyr proffesiynol ledled Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr, y mae’r ochr hon i’r Siambr ac, yr wyf yn credu, y rheiny ar y meinciau ar y dde i mi, yn ei chefnogi.

We want answers—[Interruption.] You might laugh, Dai, but you turn to the United Kingdom Government when you seek a £3 billion re-inflation of the Welsh economy. You know that the only protection that we have—and I hope that the Minister will reiterate this—is to maintain the strong links of the union and not follow the separatist agenda perpetrated on the benches opposite.

Yr ydym am gael atebion—[Torri ar draws.] Gallech chwerthin, Dai, ond yr ydych yn troi at Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wrth geisio £3 biliwn i ailchwyddo economi Cymru. Gwyddoch mai’r unig beth sy’n ein hamddiffyn—a gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn ailadrodd hyn—yw cynnal cysylltiadau cryf yr undeb a pheidio â dilyn yr agenda ymwahanol y mae’r meinciau cyferbyn yn gyfrifol amdani.

Irene James: Is that a ‘no’? [Laughter.] Irene James: Ai ‘na’ yw hwnnw? [Chwerthin.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Can we calm down a little? We have very sensitive equipment, and there is no need for Andrew R.T. Davies to have to shout. Please bear that request in mind, Alun Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A allwn dawelu ychydig? Mae gennym offer sensitif iawn, ac nid oes angen i Andrew R.T. Davies orfod gweiddi. Cadwch y cais hwnnw mewn cof, Alun Davies.

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Alun Davies: I hope that I can calm things down, Deputy Presiding Officer. If Andrew R.T. Davies is prepared to answer the question, I will give way at any point during my contribution this afternoon. We have discussed the economic conditions facing the country a number of times recently, and we have discussed how the Government is responding to those economic conditions. What we have often seen on Wednesday afternoons is these hand-wringing motions from the opposition parties. The Liberals have said that if Vince Cable were Chancellor, he would have sorted out the sub-prime issue in the United States—we all know that—while the Conservatives have done a good job of speaking at length but saying absolutely nothing. We have a Government that has been active in responding to the economic situation. The current situation with regard to the opposition is quite unusual. Usually, the opposition calls for action, not inaction, from the Government; usually it does not sit down and say nothing. It is like facing a whole load of goldfish across the Chamber. They intervene and shout, but they come up with no substance or actions. That says it all with regard to what the Conservative Party are about in opposition.

Alun Davies: Gobeithiaf y gallaf dawelu pethau, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Os yw Andrew R.T. Davies yn barod i ateb y cwestiwn, ildiaf ar unrhyw adeg yn ystod fy nghyfraniad y prynhawn yma. Yr ydym wedi trafod yr amodau economaidd sy’n wynebu’r wlad droeon yn ddiweddar, ac yr ydym wedi trafod sut mae’r Llywodraeth yn ymateb i’r amodau economaidd hynny. Yr hyn yr ydym wedi’i weld yn aml ar brynhawn dydd Mercher yw’r ystumiau gwasgu dwylo hyn gan y gwrthbleidiau. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi dweud y byddai Vince Cable, petai’n Ganghellor, wedi datrys y mater eilaidd yn yr Unol Daleithiau—gwyddom oll hynny—tra mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi gwneud gwaith da o siarad yn hirfaith ond dweud dim byd o gwbl. Mae gennym Lywodraeth sydd wedi mynd ati i ymateb i’r sefyllfa economaidd. Mae’r sefyllfa gyfredol o ran yr wrthblaid yn eithaf anarferol. Fel arfer, mae’r wrthblaid yn galw am weithredu, nid segurdod, gan y Llywodraeth; nid yw fel arfer yn eistedd i lawr ac yn dweud dim byd. Mae fel wynebu llwyth o bysgod aur ar draws y Siambr. Maent yn ymyrryd ac yn gweiddi, ond heb gyfrannu unrhyw sylwedd na chamau. Mae hynny’n dweud y cyfan am yr hyn a wna’r Blaid Geidwadol yn yr wrthblaid.

Things have changed over the last few months and weeks, because it now appears that the Conservatives have some sort of strategy for dealing with the recession. At a time when we need to ensure that the markets are working and that the economy is generating demand, the Conservative response is to cut investment in the economy. That is unique across the western world. We know from strong friends of the Labour Party—I quote Richard Lambert—that

Mae pethau wedi newid dros yr ychydig wythnosau a misoedd diwethaf, gan ei bod yn ymddangos bellach fod gan y Ceidwadwyr ryw fath o strategaeth i ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad. Ar adeg pan fo angen inni sicrhau bod y marchnadoedd yn gweithio a’r economi’n cynhyrchu galw, ymateb y Ceidwadwyr yw cwtogi ar fuddsoddiad yn yr economi. Mae hynny’n unigryw ar draws y byd gorllewinol. Gwyddom o gyfeillion cryf y Blaid Lafur—dyfynnaf Richard Lambert—fod

‘the CBI believes there is a case for a well-targeted, controlled and time-limited fiscal stimulus in the immediate future’.

Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yn credu bod achos o blaid symbyliad cyllidol rheoledig, wedi’i dargedu’n dda a chanddo derfyn amser yn y dyfodol agos.

What do we hear from the Conservative Party?

Beth a glywn gan y Blaid Geidwadol?

Alun Cairns rose— Alun Cairns a gododd—

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Alun Davies: Perhaps you will answer the question that Andrew R.T. Davies was asked.

Alun Davies: Efallai yr atebwch y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd i Andrew R.T. Davies.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to you for giving way. A fiscal stimulus may or may not work, but the reality is that, with this Government, we cannot afford one. That is the position that we are in, after all of the shouting at the G20 summit. Other nations may well have gone forward with fiscal stimuli, but we cannot in the United Kingdom, because of the debt with which you have saddled each and every one of us.

Alun Cairns: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ildio. Efallai y bydd symbyliad cyllidol yn gweithio neu beidio, ond y gwirionedd yw, gyda’r Llywodraeth hon, na allwn fforddio un. Dyna’r sefyllfa sydd ohoni, ar ôl yr holl weiddi yn uwchgynhadledd G20. Efallai wir fod cenhedloedd eraill wedi symud ymlaen â symbyliad cyllidol, ond ni allwn wneud hynny yn y Deyrnas Unedig, oherwydd y ddyled yr ydych wedi’i gosod ar ysgwyddau pob un ohonom.

Alun Davies: The reality is that the issue that we are facing is not that public spending is out of control, but that we have seen a stunning collapse of the banking system, which has led to a huge increase in expenditure in order to underpin the economy. Most people know that. There are GCSE students in this country who know that, but it appears that the opposition here and in Westminster does not have a clue about it.

Alun Davies: Y gwirionedd yw nad gwariant cyhoeddus allan o reolaeth yw’r mater a wynebwn, ond ein bod wedi gweld cwymp rhyfeddol y system fancio, sydd wedi arwain at gynyddu gwariant yn fawr er mwyn gosod sail i’r economi. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn gwybod hynny. Mae myfyrwyr TGAU yn y wlad hon sy’n gwybod hynny, ond mae’n debyg nad oes gan yr wrthblaid yma ac yn San Steffan ddim syniad am y peth.

As I was saying before Alun’s intervention, it appears that the Conservatives now have a strategy and a means of responding to the crisis, and that is to cut back on the investment that seeks to kick-start the economy. They attack the reduction in VAT, and they will remove the £60 bonus for pensioners, the trebling of cold weather payments to vulnerable pensioners, and the £2 billion-worth of investment in jobcentres. They will not bring forward increases in child benefits and child tax credits. What will that do for the economy and for some of the most vulnerable people in society?

Fel yr oeddwn yn ei ddweud cyn i Alun ymyrryd, mae’n debyg bod gan y Ceidwadwyr strategaeth bellach a ffordd o ymateb i’r argyfwng, sef cwtogi ar y buddsoddiad sy’n ceisio ysgogi’r economi. Maent yn lladd ar y gostyngiad mewn TAW, a byddant yn gwaredu’r bonws £60 i bensiynwyr, yn gwaredu treblu taliadau tywydd oer i bensiynwyr agored i niwed, a’r gwerth £2 biliwn o fuddsoddiad mewn canolfannau gwaith. Ni wnânt gyflwyno cynnydd mewn budd-daliadau plant na chredydau treth plant. Beth a wnaiff hynny i’r economi ac i rai o’r bobl fwyaf agored i niwed yn y gymdeithas?

Andrew R.T. Davies rose— Andrew R.T. Davies a gododd—

Alun Davies: I will give way to you, but only if you answer the question that you were asked. If you will not do that, I will not bother listening to you, and I think that will save everyone some time and effort.

Alun Davies: Gwnaf ildio i chi, ond ar yr amod yr atebwch y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd i chi. Os na wnewch chi hynny, ni wnaf drafferthu gwrando arnoch chi, ac yr wyf yn credu y bydd hynny’n arbed rhywfaint o amser ac ymdrech i bawb.

The reality is that we have a mendacious opposition that has little strategy to kick-start the economy. It has a strategy that seeks to

Y gwirionedd yw bod gennym wrthblaid gelwyddog heb lawer o strategaeth i ysgogi’r economi. Mae ganddi strategaeth sy’n ceisio

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cut back on our most fundamental public services and to prevent the Government from intervening to kick-start the economy.

cwtogi ar ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mwyaf sylfaenol ac atal y Llywodraeth rhag ymyrryd i ysgogi’r economi.

5.50 p.m.

Nick Bourne: I have been an economic disciple of yours for a long time. I was watching you earlier on You Tube, speaking in Blaenau Gwent. I was very moved by what you were saying. It was a massive attack on the London-based party system, as it was a speech that you delivered when you were the Plaid Cymru candidate there. Presumably, you have changed your mind and the attacks that you made then on the party of Blair and Brown do not hold now. I agreed with some of what you were saying then. I do not think that the present Government has got the right solution. Pumping all this money into the economy and devaluing it has not been a great success. Do you think that it has?

Nick Bourne: Bûm ymhlith eich disgyblion economaidd ers cryn dipyn. Yr oeddwn yn eich gwylio’n gynharach ar You Tube, yn siarad ym Mlaenau Gwent. Cafodd eich geiriau effaith ddofn arnaf. Yr oedd yn ymosodiad enfawr ar system bleidiau Llundain, ac yr oedd yn araith a gyflwynasoch pan chi oedd yr ymgeisydd Plaid Cymru yno. Gellid tybio eich bod wedi newid eich meddwl ac nad yw’r ymosodiadau a wnaethoch bryd hynny ar blaid Blair a Brown yn sefyll bellach. Cytunais â rhywfaint o’r hyn yr oeddech yn ei ddweud bryd hynny. Nid wyf yn credu bod yr ateb cywir gan y Llywodraeth bresennol. Ni fu’n llwyddiant mawr pwmpio’r holl arian hwn i’r economi a’i ddibrisio. A ydych chi’n credu y bu’n llwyddiant?

Alun Davies: Nick Bourne, over six months, you have sat there and said nothing. Your intervention today harps back 20 years and does not look forward to the future. The reality that you and everyone who seeks public office and to form a Government in this place has to face is that a responsible Government has to take action. In opposition, you have managed to preach inaction. You have done nothing and proposed nothing.

Alun Davies: Nick Bourne, dros chwe mis, yr ydych wedi eistedd yno a dweud dim. Mae eich ymyriad heddiw’n rhygnu’n ôl 20 mlynedd ac nid yw’n edrych ymlaen at y dyfodol. Y gwirionedd y mae’n rhaid i chi a phawb sy’n ceisio swydd gyhoeddus a ffurfio Llywodraeth yn y man hwn ei wynebu yw ei bod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth gyfrifol weithredu. Yn yr wrthblaid, yr ydych wedi llwyddo i bregethu segurdod. Nid ydych wedi gwneud dim byd na chynnig dim byd.

When we finally see a Conservative strategy, it is a mendacious one that talks about austerity and cuts but fails time and again to say where those cuts will fall and who will suffer. We know in Wales about suffering under Conservative Governments. I do not believe that people in Wales want to see that suffering repeated.

Pan welwn strategaeth Geidwadol o’r diwedd, un gelwyddog ydyw sy’n sôn am galedi a thoriadau ond sy’n methu droeon â dweud ymhle bydd y toriadau hynny’n digwydd a phwy a fydd yn dioddef. Gwyddom yng Nghymru am ddioddef o dan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol. Nid wyf yn credu bod ar bobl yng Nghymru eisiau gweld ailadrodd y dioddef hwnnw.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery (Andrew Davies): Having listened to the Tory speakers this afternoon, I do not think that is only the equipment in this Chamber that is rather sensitive. With regard to Dai Lloyd’s question, if I could perceive any answer from Andrew R.T. Davies, I think that it is that the Tories would get rid of free

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus (Andrew Davies): Wedi gwrando ar y siaradwyr Ceidwadol y prynhawn yma, nid wyf yn credu mai’r offer yw’r unig beth sy’n eithaf sensitif yn y Siambr hon. O ran cwestiwn Dai Lloyd, pe gallwn ganfod unrhyw ateb gan Andrew R.T. Davies, credaf mai hwnnw yw

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prescriptions and would get rid of free breakfasts for our children. The Tories are all about tax cuts for the few, not public services for the many.

y byddai’r Torïaid yn gwaredu presgripsiynau rhad ac am ddim ac yn gwaredu brecwastau rhad ac am ddim i’n plant. Mae’r Torïaid yn ymwneud â thoriadau treth i’r ychydig, nid gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i’r niferus.

Both parties of the Assembly Government have agreed to support the motion. However, after hearing the rather unreconstructed rhetoric from Nick Ramsay and the rambling rant from Mark Isherwood, we might have reconsidered our view. We will support the motion, but on the basis of its wording, and not on the basis of the rambling rhetoric to which we have been subjected this afternoon.

Mae dwy blaid Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cytuno i gefnogi’r cynnig. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl clywed rhethreg eithaf adweithiol Nick Ramsay a mwydro Mark Isherwood, gallasem fod wedi ailystyried ein barn. Byddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig, ond ar sail ei eiriad, ac nid ar sail y rhethreg fwydrus y bu’n rhaid inni wrando arni’r prynhawn yma.

Alun Cairns: I visited several schools over the last week or so. One headteacher described free breakfast provision in his school as nothing more than child care for the middle classes. Do you agree and do you not think that headteachers and governors are best placed to decide on how best to use the resources?

Alun Cairns: Ymwelais â nifer o ysgolion yn ystod yr wythnos neu ddwy ddiwethaf. Dywedodd un pennaeth nad yw darparu brecwast am ddim yn ei ysgol yn ddim mwy na gofal plant i’r dosbarthiadau canol. A ydych chi’n cytuno ac oni chredwch mai penaethiaid a llywodraethwyr sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benderfynu sut mae defnyddio’r adnoddau orau?

Andrew Davies: Objective assessment of free school breakfasts has shown that they have improved pupils’ attendance and performance, and all the other indications are that it is an extremely successful policy. Again, it comes back to our philosophy as Government about public services for the many. The Tories are clearly about tax cuts and privilege for the few.

Andrew Davies: Mae asesiad gwrthrychol o frecwastau ysgol rhad ac am ddim wedi dangos eu bod wedi gwella presenoldeb a pherfformiad disgyblion, ac mae’r holl arwyddion eraill yn dangos ei fod yn bolisi llwyddiannus dros ben. Eto, daw yn ôl i’n hathroniaeth fel Llywodraeth am wasanaethau cyhoeddus i’r niferus. Mae’r Torïaid yn amlwg yn ymwneud â thoriadau treth a braint i’r ychydig.

As I have said, we will support the motion in the name of Alun Cairns. We believe that we are already using our own budget to good effect to support Welsh interests through the global downturn. In the rhetoric that we have had from the Conservatives this afternoon, there was very little about the Welsh Assembly Government, its budget or policies. It was all aimed at a UK level. That shows yet again the Tories’ commitment to Wales and this institution.

Fel y dywedais, byddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig yn enw Alun Cairns. Credwn ein bod eisoes yn defnyddio ein cyllideb ein hun yn effeithiol i gefnogi buddiannau Cymru drwy’r dirywiad byd-eang. Yn y rhethreg a gawsom gan y Ceidwadwyr y prynhawn yma, prin y soniwyd am Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, ei chyllideb na’i pholisïau. Anelwyd y cyfan at lefel y DU. Dengys hynny unwaith eto ymrwymiad y Torïaid i Gymru a’r sefydliad hwn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will you take an intervention?

Andrew R.T. Davies: A gymerwch ymyriad?

Andrew Davies: No. The UK Government’s budget has been framed in response to the

Andrew Davies: Na wnaf. Mae cyllideb Llywodraeth y DU wedi’i fframio mewn

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unprecedented shockwaves caused by the global recession and the difficulties of which we are all aware. A number of the announcements match our approach in Wales, ensuring fairness for people in these difficult times, helping to prepare the economy for recovery and setting the foundations for a stable and sustainable future.

ymateb i’r tonnau ysgytwad digynsail a achoswyd gan y dirwasgiad byd-eang a’i anawsterau yr ydym oll yn ymwybodol ohonynt. Mae nifer o’r cyhoeddiadau’n cyd-fynd â’n hymagwedd yng Nghymru, gan sicrhau tegwch i bobl yn yr amseroedd anodd hyn, helpu i baratoi’r economi ar gyfer adfer a gosod y sylfeini ar gyfer dyfodol sefydlog a chynaliadwy.

The budget reductions that we face in Wales—of some £216 million in revenue in 2010-11—will pose a significant challenge for us and for all our partners as we look to make services as efficient as possible. We take a degree of comfort from the fact that, following our representations to UK Government Ministers, we have avoided potentially unfair and disproportionately larger revenue cuts of almost £300 million. That is what the First Minister and I had sought in our discussions with UK Government Ministers. Stemming from last November’s pre-budget report, and as we have indicated previously, our annual block capital budget in 2010-11 will also reduce by around £200 million, but that is as a result of being allowed to bring forward capital expenditure from 2010-11 to this year and the last financial year in order to provide an economic stimulus. We hear very little from the Conservative Party as to what it would do practically to help us in Wales through the economic recession.

Bydd y gostyngiadau cyllideb a wynebwn yng Nghymru—sef tua £216 miliwn mewn refeniw yn 2010-11—yn golygu her sylweddol i ni ac i’n holl bartneriaid wrth inni geisio sicrhau gwasanaethau mor effeithlon â phosibl. Cawn rywfaint o gysur o’r ffaith ein bod, ar ôl ein cyflwyniadau i Weinidogion Llywodraeth y DU, wedi osgoi posibilrwydd toriadau refeniw annheg ac anghymesur mwy o bron £300 miliwn. Dyna yr oeddwn i a’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i geisio yn ein trafodaethau â Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU. Yn deillio o adroddiad cyn cyllideb mis Tachwedd diwethaf, ac fel y nodwyd gennym yn flaenorol, bydd ein cyllideb cyfalaf bloc flynyddol yn 2010-11 hefyd yn gostwng tua £200 miliwn, ond mae hynny o ganlyniad i’r caniatâd i ddwyn gwariant cyfalaf ymlaen o 2010-11 i’r flwyddyn hon a’r flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf er mwyn symbylu’r economi. Prin iawn y clywn gan y Blaid Geidwadol am yr hyn y byddai’n ei wneud yn ymarferol i’n helpu ni yng Nghymru drwy’r dirwasgiad economaidd.

We are also maximising our own resources, and we intend to draw down our end-year flexibility resources, accumulated in earlier years, to mitigate the impact of the financial constraints. More positively, through Barnett consequentials related to other announcements in the UK Government budget, we stand to receive an additional £46 million of new money in 2009-10, and £14 million in the next financial year. We will make announcements on how that money is to be used in due course. To come down to the issue of budget planning, efficiencies and reprioritisation, as I said in my statement yesterday, we are already committed to driving efficiencies across public services in Wales, and are recognised as being ahead of the game in some areas. As I indicated yesterday, we are well on our way to

Yr ydym hefyd yn gwneud y mwyaf posibl o’n hadnoddau ein hunain, a bwriadwn dynnu i lawr ein hadnoddau hyblygrwydd diwedd blwyddyn, a gronnwyd mewn blynyddoedd cynharach, i liniaru effaith y rhwystrau ariannol. Yn fwy cadarnhaol, drwy symiau canlyniadol Barnett sy’n gysylltiedig â chyhoeddiadau eraill yng nghyllideb Llywodraeth y DU, yr ydym am gael £46 miliwn ychwanegol o arian newydd yn 2009-10, a £14 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Byddwn yn cyhoeddi maes o law sut y bydd yr arian hwnnw’n cael ei ddefnyddio. I sôn am fater cynllunio cyllideb, effeithlonrwydd ac ail-flaenoriaethu, fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad ddoe, yr ydym eisoes wedi ymrwymo i wthio effeithlonrwydd ar draws gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, a chydnabyddir ein

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achieving, if not surpassing, our £600 million efficiency savings by next year.

bod ar flaen y gad mewn rhai meysydd. Fel y nodais ddoe, yr ydym ymhell ar y ffordd i gyflawni ein harbedion effeithlonrwydd o £600 miliwn, os nad rhagori arnynt, erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf.

We have been carrying out a great deal of preparatory work, in line with discussions at Cabinet meetings and at Cabinet committee meetings, to consider the scope for greater efficiencies and focusing resources. The First Minister will be convening a meeting of all the key players in Wales: local government, the health service, and the voluntary and third sector, to look at how we, at a strategic level, deal with the financial constraints that we are all facing. In addition, in terms of the actions that we are taking here in Wales, I intend to establish an invest-to-save fund, which will significantly enhance the ‘Making the Connections’ improvement fund. It will be a £40 million fund over the first year, which will be accessible to public bodies funded by the Assembly Government in Wales. Over the period 2011-12 to 2013-14, the UK Government has also indicated that it will find additional efficiency savings, rising to £9 billion a year in 2013-14. The detailed levels of efficiency savings in the two preceding financial years are not yet known, and obviously we will be in discussion with the UK Government on these areas. In addition, gross capital investment for the UK is forecast to fall significantly over the period 2010-11 to 2013-14, which is likely to feed through into reduced capital budgets for the Assembly Government.

Yr ydym wedi bod yn gwneud llawer iawn o waith paratoi, yn unol â thrafodaethau mewn cyfarfodydd Cabinet ac mewn cyfarfodydd pwyllgor Cabinet, i ystyried i ba raddau y gellir cael mwy o effeithlonrwydd a chanolbwyntio adnoddau’n well. Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn galw cyfarfod o’r holl chwaraewyr allweddol yng Nghymru: llywodraeth leol, y gwasanaeth iechyd, a’r sector gwirfoddol a’r trydydd sector, i ystyried sut yr ydym, ar lefel strategol, yn ymdrin â’r rhwystrau ariannol yr ydym oll yn eu hwynebu. Yn ogystal, o ran y camau yr ydym yn eu cymryd yma yng Nghymru, bwriadaf sefydlu cronfa buddsoddi i arbed, a fydd yn cryfhau cronfa wella ‘Creu’r Cysylltiadau’ yn sylweddol. Bydd yn gronfa £40 miliwn dros y flwyddyn gyntaf, a fydd ar gael i gyrff cyhoeddus a ariennir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad yng Nghymru. Dros y cyfnod 2011-12 i 2013-14, mae Llywodraeth y DU hefyd wedi nodi y bydd yn canfod arbedion effeithlonrwydd ychwanegol, gan godi i £9 biliwn y flwyddyn yn 2013-14. Nid yw lefelau manwl yr arbedion effeithlonrwydd yn y ddwy flwyddyn ariannol flaenorol yn hysbys eto, ac yn amlwg byddwn yn trafod y meysydd hyn â Llywodraeth y DU. Yn ogystal, rhagwelir y bydd buddsoddiad cyfalaf gros i’r DU yn gostwng yn sylweddol dros y cyfnod 2010-11 i 2013-14, sy’n debygol o gyfrannu at gyllidebau cyfalaf llai i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad.

Although the exact impact of the further efficiency savings on the Assembly Government’s budget is not yet known, the tightening budgets that we face emphasise the importance of using our resources effectively and efficiently. I believe that it is about working smarter and more efficiently, and as I said in relation to our efficiency savings programme, we are well on track to reaching our previous targets. I have been on record consistently as saying that the £600 million of efficiency savings through the ‘Making the Connections’ target is, I believe, only the beginning. We can work much more

Er nad yw union effaith yr arbedion effeithlonrwydd pellach ar gyllideb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn hysbys eto, mae’r cyllidebau tynnach a wynebwn yn pwysleisio mor bwysig yw defnyddio ein hadnoddau’n effeithiol ac yn effeithlon. Credaf ei bod yn golygu gweithio’n graffach ac yn fwy effeithlon, ac fel y dywedais mewn cysylltiad â’n rhaglen arbedion effeithlonrwydd, yr ydym ymhell ar y ffordd i gyrraedd ein targedau blaenorol. Cefais fy nghofnodi’n rheolaidd yn dweud mai dim ond y dechrau, yn fy marn i, yw’r £600 miliwn o arbedion effeithlonrwydd drwy

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smartly in Wales, working collectively. darged ‘Creu’r Cysylltiadau’. Gallwn weithio’n graffach o lawer yng Nghymru, drwy weithio ar y cyd.

In conclusion, the UK budget presents opportunities that we intend to make the most of, as well as the need to manage the growing financial challenges with which we are faced. However, the budget and our policies lay down some clear dividing lines between the left-of-centre parties and the Conservative Party. It is clear from the Conservatives utterances in the Chamber this afternoon, and from what it says at a UK level, that they believe that the recession should be allowed to take its course. We believe that you have to invest for the future, or you have no future. We believe that you cannot cut your way out of a recession, you can only grow your way out of a recession. This Government is indeed leading Wales out of recession, and thank God that we are in Government and not the Conservatives.

I gloi, mae cyllideb y DU yn cyflwyno cyfleoedd y bwriadwn fanteisio i’r eithaf arnynt, yn ogystal â’r angen i reoli’r heriau ariannol cynyddol sy’n ein hwynebu. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gyllideb a’n polisïau yn gosod rhai rhaniadau clir rhwng y pleidiau ar yr ochr chwith a’r Blaid Geidwadol. Mae’n amlwg o barablau’r Ceidwadwyr yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma, ac o’r hyn a ddywed ar lefel y DU, eu bod yn credu y dylid caniatáu i’r dirwasgiad ddilyn ei gwrs. Credwn ei bod yn rhaid ichi fuddsoddi ar gyfer y dyfodol, neu ni fydd dyfodol gennych. Credwn na allwch dorri eich ffordd allan o ddirwasgiad, dim ond tyfu eich ffordd allan o ddirwasgiad. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn wir yn arwain Cymru allan o ddirwasgiad, a diolch byth mai ni sydd mewn Llywodraeth ac nid y Ceidwadwyr.

6.00 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister. I understand that you wished to apologise to the Assembly for being late, but you omitted to do that—in the heat of the debate, I am sure. Would you like to put that right?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Diolch, Weinidog. Deallaf eich bod yn dymuno ymddiheuro i’r Cynulliad am fod yn hwyr, ond ni wnaethoch hynny—yng ngwres y ddadl, mae’n siŵr. A fyddech yn hoffi gwneud hynny yn awr?

Andrew Davies: Yes, I apologise for being late.

Andrew Davies: Byddwn, yr wyf yn ymddiheuro am fod yn hwyr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you very much. I now call on David Melding to wind up the debate.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Galwaf yn awr ar David Melding i ddirwyn y ddadl i ben.

David Melding: Of course, we accept the Minister’s apology. I think that the dilemma that we are in is summed up in many ways by the concluding statement by the Minister for finance. The Minister had just introduced the concept that we now have of these efficiency savings. We now live in an age where you do not cut public expenditure; you have efficiency savings. It is another way of looking at it. If you do efficiently save, that is good for the economy, as long as you allow the private sector to grow, but if you do it badly and just cut—[Interruption.] I see that there is now another Minister who cannot contain his enthusiasm. I am not quite sure

David Melding: Derbyniwn ymddiheuriad y Gweinidog wrth gwrs. Credaf fod ein cyfyng-gyngor yn cael ei grynhoi mewn llawer o ffyrdd yn natganiad olaf y Gweinidog dros gyllid. Yr oedd y Gweinidog newydd gyflwyno’r cysyniad sydd gennym yn awr, sef yr arbedion effeithlonrwydd hyn. Yr ydym yn byw yn awr mewn oes lle nad ydych yn torri gwariant cyhoeddus; mae gennych arbedion effeithlonrwydd. Mae’n ffordd arall o edrych ar bethau. Os ydych yn arbed yn effeithlon, mae hynny’n dda i’r economi, ar yr amod eich bod yn gadael i’r sector preifat dyfu, ond os ydych yn arbed yn wael ac yn gwneud dim mwy na thorri—

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whether he wants to stand up to make the intervention.

[Torri ar draws.] Gwelaf fod Gweinidog arall yn methu rheoli ei frwdfrydedd yn awr. Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr a yw’n dymuno sefyll i wneud yr ymyriad.

However, we have been talking about the consequences for our budget of what has happened in this dreadful economic recession and international financial crisis—and I accept that it is an international financial crisis. However, these efficiency savings—and I will use that language—are now wired into the budgets that come to us for the foreseeable future. With gentle menace, which, I have to say, the Minister does with great aplomb, he has prepared us for future reductions of £9 billion, which we will obviously have to share in. Then, he has the cheek to say that the Conservatives would cut their way out of recession. I am not quite sure that you could define chopping £9 billion willy-nilly without an effective plan for how to turn that into efficient saving as somehow being an expansive way to tackle the recession.

Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi bod yn siarad am y modd y mae’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn y dirwasgiad economaidd a’r argyfwng ariannol rhyngwladol dychrynllyd hwn yn effeithio ar ein cyllideb—ac yr wyf yn cydnabod ei fod yn argyfwng ariannol rhyngwladol. Serch hynny, mae’r arbedion effeithlonrwydd hyn—a defnyddiaf yr iaith honno—bellach wedi eu cyplysu â’r cyllidebau a roddir i ni hyd y gellir rhagweld. Drwy roi bygythiad bach, a hynny, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud, yn hunanfeddiannol iawn, mae’r Gweinidog wedi’n paratoi ar gyfer cwtogiadau o £9 biliwn yn y dyfodol, y bydd yn rhaid inni fod yn gyfrannog ynddynt wrth gwrs. Yna, mae’n ddigon digywilydd i ddweud y byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn torri eu ffordd allan o ddirwasgiad. Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr y gallech ddiffinio torri £9 biliwn rywsut-rywsut, heb gynllun effeithiol i ddangos sut i droi hynny’n arbediad effeithlonrwydd, fel ffordd ehangol o fynd i’r afael â’r dirwasgiad.

With regard to these projections for growth when the recession ends—and it will end, because our people are enterprising and productive and, no matter how bad Government policy is from the Labour Party, at some point, the natural virtue of our people will work through even the mess left to them by Government policy—the recovery will be less robust if demand is low because the Government is having to cut its expenditure and, because of its poor policies in the past, is unable to realise growth in the private sector. That is why Peter Hain is so concerned. That is why he makes very unsubtle remarks about what you have failed to do since devolution 10 years ago. On that note, I think that this is a great test of devolution. We have had 10 years of relative plenty. As a policy, it was not very wise, but the effect on us was that we saw our budgets increase. Ministers have stood up there doing what Ministers love to do, which is to say, ‘Extra spending here; extra spending there; spending for this, spending for that; this grant, that grant’. It has been a case of spend, spend, spend, but that does not necessarily turn into effective

O ran yr amcanestyniadau hyn ar gyfer twf pan fydd y dirwasgiad yn dod i ben—a bydd yn dod i ben, oherwydd mae’n pobl yn fentrus ac yn gynhyrchiol ac, ni waeth pa mor ddrwg yw polisi Llywodraeth y Blaid Lafur, rywbryd neu’i gilydd, bydd priodweddau naturiol ein pobl yn gweithio’u ffordd drwy hyd yn oed y llanastr a adawyd iddynt gan bolisi’r Llywodraeth—ni fydd yr adferiad mor gryf os oes llai o alw gan fod y Llywodraeth yn gorfod cwtogi ei gwariant ac, oherwydd ei pholisïau gwael yn y gorffennol, ei bod yn methu gwireddu twf yn y sector preifat. Dyna pam y mae Peter Hain mor bryderus. Dyna pam y mae’n gwneud sylwadau anghynnil iawn ynglŷn â’r hyn yr ydych wedi methu ei wneud ers datganoli 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Ar y nodyn hwnnw, credaf fod hyn yn brawf gwych ar ddatganoli. Yr ydym wedi cael 10 mlynedd o lawnder cymharol. Fel polisi, nid oedd yn un doeth iawn, ond yr effaith a gafodd arnom ni oedd ein bod wedi gweld ein cyllidebau’n cynyddu. Mae Gweinidogion wedi sefyll yna yn gwneud yr hyn y mae Gweinidogion wrth eu bodd yn ei wneud, sef dweud, ‘Mwy o

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investment every time. It is actually a very difficult job to increase public spending effectively and to turn that into investment. The Government commissioned what was, in fairness, an excellent report by Lord Beecham. Our problem is that that has not yet been implemented effectively five years, nearly, after it was delivered; even you concede that that is the case. It just shows that this spending has not been optimum, and we have to face the consequences of that relatively poor public spending now, during a recession, when we need it to work hardest for us.

wariant fan hyn; mwy o wariant fan draw; gwariant ar gyfer hyn, gwariant ar gyfer y llall; y grant hwn, y grant acw’. Mae wedi bod yn fater o wario, gwario, gwario, ond nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn troi’n fuddsoddiad effeithiol bob tro. Mewn gwirionedd mae cynyddu gwariant cyhoeddus yn effeithiol a throi hynny’n fuddsoddiad yn dasg anodd iawn. Comisiynodd y Llywodraeth adroddiad rhagorol, a bod yn deg, gan yr Arglwydd Beecham. Ein problem yw bod yr adroddiad hwnnw’n dal heb gael ei weithredu’n effeithiol bum mlynedd, bron iawn, ers iddo gael ei gyflwyno; yr ydych chi hyd yn oed yn cyfaddef bod hynny’n wir. Mae’n dangos nad yw’r gwariant hwn wedi bod yn llwyddiannus, a rhaid inni wynebu canlyniadau’r gwariant cyhoeddus cymharol wael hwnnw yn awr, yn ystod dirwasgiad, pan mae arnom angen iddo weithio galetaf inni.

Andrew Davies: For a start, I would like David Melding to withdraw the comment that I have said that our response to Beecham has failed. He also said that the Beecham report was five years ago; it was not. Beecham reported in 2006, and we responded in 2007. Our response has, I think, been very rapid, and there has been significant achievement. I have never ever said that we have failed in our response to Beecham; far from it.

Andrew Davies: I ddechrau, hoffwn petai David Melding yn tynnu’n ôl y sylw fy mod wedi dweud ein bod wedi methu ymateb i Beecham. Dywedodd hefyd fod adroddiad Beecham wedi ei gyhoeddi bum mlynedd yn ôl; nid yw hynny’n gywir. Cyflwynwyd adroddiad Beecham yn 2006, a chyflwynwyd ein hymateb ni yn 2007. Credaf fod ein hymateb wedi bod yn un cyflym iawn, ac yr ydym wedi cyflawni llawer. Ni ddywedais erioed ein bod wedi methu ymateb i Beecham; nid yw hynny’n wir o gwbl.

David Melding: Lord Beecham would not have made such comments as that about the Welsh public service lacking a mixed economy if he thought that your first seven years in Government had been fully effective in expanding public expenditure. All right, I accept that it has been three years and not five. I did attempt to correct myself mid-sentence, as I think you realised. I said that you have not implemented that report yet, and you have admitted that. You are trying to take it forward, but you have not implemented it fully. We still have to see some effective action on the part of this Government to really take things forward. You are trying to come up with these reforms after doing the spending, and that is the problem that we now face.

David Melding: Ni fyddai’r Arglwydd Beecham wedi gwneud sylwadau fel y rhai hynny ynglŷn â diffyg economi gymysg yng ngwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymru petai’n credu bod eich saith mlynedd gyntaf mewn Llywodraeth wedi bod yn gwbl effeithiol o ran ceisio ehangu gwariant cyhoeddus. Iawn, derbyniaf fod hynny dair blynedd yn ôl ac nid pump. Ceisiais gywiro fy hun ar ganol y frawddeg, fel yr wyf yn credu eich bod wedi sylweddoli. Dywedais nad ydych wedi rhoi’r adroddiad hwnnw ar waith eto, ac yr ydych wedi cyfaddef hynny. Yr ydych yn ceisio symud ymlaen ag ef, ond nid ydych wedi ei weithredu’n llawn. Mae angen inni weld y Llywodraeth hon yn cymryd camau effeithiol o hyd er mwyn symud pethau yn eu blaenau o ddifrif. Yr ydych yn ceisio cynnig y diwygiadau hyn ar ôl gwneud y gwariant, a dyna’r broblem yr ydym yn ei hwynebu yn

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awr.

This is a test for all parties, including my own. We have outlined our initial thinking on business rates. We have said that part of the freebie culture will have to be rolled back. We will address the question of whether that should be at the rate of free prescriptions as they stood when they were abolished, or whether we would go up to what the English charge is at present, or whether we would be somewhere in the middle. We will be honest with the Welsh electorate, and we will tell it what we will do with that £40 million or so that is so generated. We are not afraid of the electorate.

Mae hwn yn brawf ar allu pob plaid, gan gynnwys fy mhlaid i. Yr ydym wedi amlinellu’n syniadau cychwynnol ynglŷn ag ardrethi busnes. Yr ydym wedi dweud y bydd yn rhaid inni droi’r cloc yn ôl i raddau o ran y diwylliant pethau am ddim. Byddwn yn rhoi sylw i’r cwestiwn a ddylai hynny fod ar raddfa presgripsiynau am ddim fel yr oeddent pan gawsant eu diddymu, neu a fyddem yn mynd i fyny i’r tâl a godir yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd, neu a fyddem rywle yn y canol. Byddwn yn onest ag etholwyr Cymru, a byddwn yn dweud wrthynt beth y byddwn yn ei wneud â’r swm hwnnw o tua £40 miliwn a gynhyrchir drwy hynny. Nid oes arnom ofn yr etholwyr.

It is a real test for Labour because, in the great narrative of what has happened to this country in the past 30 years, the international recessions of the 1980s and early 1990s were somehow peculiarly caused by a Conservative Party in Government that did not stop the chill winds blowing across the British economy. It is as though we maliciously decided to allow those international recessions to affect us. Now, Labour has to come to the sorry conclusion that these forces are so enormous that it cannot just build a wall around the British economy and try to keep it immune to them. It has to face the consequences of some of the decisions that it has made in the past.

Mae’n brawf gwirioneddol ar allu Llafur oherwydd yn rhyfedd iawn, yn ôl yr adroddiad mawr am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd i’r wlad hon yn y 30 mlynedd diwethaf, achoswyd dirwasgiadau rhyngwladol y 1980au a dechrau’r 1990au gan fethiant Plaid Geidwadol mewn Llywodraeth i atal yr awelon main rhag chwythu drwy economi Prydain. Mae fel petaem wedi gwneud penderfyniad maleisus i ganiatáu i’r dirwasgiadau rhyngwladol hynny effeithio arnom. Erbyn hyn, mae Llafur wedi dod i’r casgliad truenus bod y grymoedd hyn mor gryf fel nad oes diben iddi geisio adeiladu wal o amgylch economi Prydain a cheisio’i chadw’n ddiogel rhagddynt. Rhaid iddi wynebu canlyniadau rhai o’r penderfyniadau y mae wedi eu gwneud yn y gorffennol.

The financial crisis is undoubtedly much worse in Britain than it is in any other economy in the world, with the possible exception of the United States. For heaven’s sake, three of our six great banking groups are functionally bankrupt in Great Britain. That is where we have got to. Whether that could have been completely prevented by a more effective regulation system, I do not know, but one thing is certain: it has not been helped by what you have done in Government. [Interruption.]

Mae’r argyfwng ariannol yn sicr yn llawer gwaeth ym Mhrydain nag mewn unrhyw economi arall yn y byd, ac eithrio’r Unol Daleithiau o bosibl. Er mwyn y nefoedd, mae tri o’n chwe grŵp bancio mawr yn fethdalwyr i bob pwrpas ym Mhrydain Fawr. Dyna’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi. Ni wn a fyddai system reoleiddio fwy effeithiol wedi gallu atal hynny’n gyfan gwbl, ond mae un peth yn sicr: nid yw’r hyn yr ydych chi wedi ei wneud yn y Llywodraeth wedi helpu dim. [Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

David Melding: When Labour came to David Melding: Yn ystod y ddwy neu dair

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office, for the first two or three years, it followed the previous Conservative Government’s spending plans, which reduced historic debt quite considerably. Since then, it has been spending 2 per cent, sometimes 3 per cent, more than it has received in taxation receipts. That means that, over the next few years, we will be spending between 10 and 12 per cent more than we are gaining in taxation receipts—by far the biggest margin of the major OECD countries—spooking the international markets, and preventing the possibility of investment from other sources—the wholesale sources that were there—flowing into the British economy, because they do not trust Government policy day to day. It is a serious condition when the international markets lose confidence in the Government’s current account. That is, what you are doing badly year on year.

blynedd gyntaf ar ôl dod i rym, dilynodd Llafur gynlluniau gwariant y Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol, gan leihau’r ddyled hanesyddol yn sylweddol. Ers hynny, mae wedi bod yn gwario 2 y cant, weithiau 3 y cant, yn fwy na’i derbyniadau treth. Mae hynny’n golygu y byddwn, yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf, yn gwario rhwng 10 a 12 y cant yn fwy na’n derbyniadau treth—y ganran fwyaf o bell ffordd ym mhrif wledydd y Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd—gan godi ofn ar y marchnadoedd rhyngwladol, ac atal y posibilrwydd o fuddsoddiad o ffynonellau eraill—y ffynonellau cyfanwerthu a oedd yno—rhag llifo i economi Prydain, gan nad oes ganddynt ffydd ym mholisi’r Llywodraeth o ddydd i ddydd. Mae pethau’n ddrwg iawn pan fo’r marchnadoedd rhyngwladol yn colli ffydd yng nghyfrif cyfredol y Llywodraeth. Dyna beth yr ydych yn ei wneud yn wael y naill flwyddyn ar ôl y llall.

The historical debt position is still relatively good compared with that of other OECD countries but, within two or three years, we will be way up there with the poor performers because of the decisions that you have taken. You claim credit for the good years, so you have to take responsibility for our situation now. That is what you will be judged on: not on where this recession came from ultimately, by way of world trade patterns, but on the state that we were in ready to try to weather these storms. Just as the Conservative Party in the 1980s and 1990s was judged on its response to those forces, you will be judged on what you have done, what you could have done to mitigate, and what you have failed to do because of previous poor decisions.

O ran y ddyled hanesyddol, mae’r sefyllfa’n dal yn gymharol dda mewn cymhariaeth â gwledydd eraill y Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd ond, ymhen dwy neu dair blynedd, byddwn i fyny yna gyda’r perfformwyr gwael oherwydd y penderfyniadau yr ydych chi wedi eu gwneud. Yr ydych yn hawlio clod am y blynyddoedd da, felly rhaid ichi dderbyn cyfrifoldeb am y sefyllfa bresennol. Ar sail hynny y byddwch yn cael eich barnu: nid ar sail tarddiad y dirwasgiad hwn, a phatrymau masnachu’r byd, ond ar sail cyflwr yr economi ar yr adeg yr oeddem yn ceisio wynebu’r stormydd hyn. Yn union fel y barnwyd y Blaid Geidwadol yn y 1980au a’r 1990au ar sail ei hymateb i’r grymoedd hynny, byddwch chwithau’n cael eich barnu ar sail yr hyn yr ydych wedi ei wneud, yr hyn y gallech fod wedi ei wneud i leddfu’r sefyllfa, a’r hyn yr ydych wedi methu ei wneud oherwydd penderfyniadau gwael blaenorol.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see that there are no objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes gwrthwynebiad. O ganlyniad, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

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Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol CymruWelsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Cyllideb Llywodraeth y DUThe UK Government’s Budget

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones.

Jenny Randerson: I move that Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes: 1. yn nodi:

a) the Chancellor’s UK budget statement of 22 April; and

a) datganiad cyllideb y DU gan y Canghellor ar 22 Ebrill; a

b) the proposed cuts in UK Government expenditure and the likely impact on Wales;

b) y toriadau arfaethedig yng ngwariant Llywodraeth y DU a’r effaith debygol ar Gymru;

2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that expenditure on economic development, job creation, skills investment and support for Welsh businesses is prioritised and protected, as far as possible, from any cuts it makes as a result of the UK budget in the coming years. (NDM4197)

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i sicrhau bod gwariant ar ddatblygu economaidd, creu swyddi, buddsoddi mewn sgiliau a chefnogi busnesau yng Nghymru yn cael ei flaenoriaethu a’i ddiogelu, cymaint ag y bo modd, rhag unrhyw doriadau a wna o ganlyniad i gyllideb y DU dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. (NDM4197)

I am delighted to propose this important debate on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats. We wanted to go further than the Conservatives’ debate and use our time to suggest an approach that the Assembly Government needs to take. It is significant, in light of the previous debate and the comments made in it, that the Conservatives’ motion did not suggest any solutions to the problem. The Welsh Liberal Democrats have a more practical approach.

Yr wyf yn falch iawn o gael cynnig y ddadl bwysig hon ar ran Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru. Yr oeddem yn awyddus i fynd ymhellach na dadl y Ceidwadwyr a defnyddio’n hamser i awgrymu ymagwedd y mae angen i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad ei dilyn. Mae’n arwyddocaol, yn dilyn y ddadl flaenorol a’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd ynddi, nad oedd cynnig y Ceidwadwyr yn awgrymu unrhyw atebion i geisio datrys y broblem. Mae gan Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru ymagwedd fwy ymarferol.

We will oppose the Government’s amendment 1. We would obviously welcome counter-cyclical measures across all departments, but that is exactly what our more detailed motion calls for. On the flip side, the words of the Government amendment do not accurately reflect what is happening. The words do not reflect its

Byddwn yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant 1 y Llywodraeth. Byddem yn croesawu mesurau gwrthgylchol ym mhob adran wrth gwrs, a dyna’r union beth y mae’n cynnig manylach ni’n galw amdano. Ar yr ochr negyddol, nid yw geiriau gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn adlewyrchiad cywir o’r hyn sy’n digwydd. Nid yw’r geiriau’n adlewyrchu ei

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deeds. gweithredoedd.

6.10 p.m.

Slashing the further education budget, and causing uncertainty and chaos for the foremost providers of skills training in Wales cannot be seen as an anti-recessionary measure. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Allowing our higher education institutions, the main motor for keeping high-value skills and graduates in Wales, to develop a major gap in funding compared with England cannot be seen as an anti-recessionary measure. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Cutting Wales Rally GB funding and hiding behind the wording of a contract when we need more, not less, investment in economic stimulus and job creation cannot be seen as an anti-recessionary measure. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Giving local government its worst settlement ever, resulting in cuts in jobs, higher council taxes, less support for local businesses from councils, and less investment in infrastructure cannot be seen as an anti-recessionary measure. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

Ni ellir ystyried torri’r gyllideb addysg bellach, ac achosi ansicrwydd ac anhrefn i’r prif ddarparwyr hyfforddiant sgiliau yng Nghymru fel ffordd o ymladd y dirwasgiad. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n cyflawni’r gwrthwyneb. Ni ellir ystyried caniatáu i’n sefydliadau addysg uwch, y prif gyfrwng er mwyn cadw sgiliau a graddedigion gwerthfawr yng Nghymru, ddatblygu bwlch cyllido mawr mewn cymhariaeth â Lloegr fel ffordd o ymladd y dirwasgiad. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n cyflawni’r gwrthwyneb. Ni ellir ystyried cwtogi cyllid Rali Cymru Prydain Fawr a chuddio y tu ôl i eiriau contract pan mae arnom angen mwy, nid llai, o fuddsoddiad er mwyn ysgogi’r economi a chreu swyddi fel ffordd o ymladd y dirwasgiad. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n cyflawni’r gwrthwyneb. Ni ellir ystyried rhoi’r setliad gwaethaf erioed i lywodraeth leol, gan arwain at golli swyddi, trethi cyngor uwch, llai o gefnogaeth i fusnesau lleol gan gynghorau, a llai o fuddsoddiad mewn seilwaith fel ffordd o ymladd y dirwasgiad. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n cyflawni’r gwrthwyneb.

We are facing horrific times, which will leave us with chaos in our budgets for years to come. A Labour Government has got us into a position of putting British people into more debt than all previous Governments combined. I dread to think of the difficulties that Wales will face in the decade to come as a result. Wales does not have the major big business headquarters that Scotland has. Therefore, we are a country that relies on—or should rely on—small businesses and the entrepreneurial spirit of our citizens. The vast majority of Welsh companies employ 10 or fewer people, and the Assembly Government needs to go much further in the support that it makes available to them. It should prioritise small business rate relief and go much further than the current policy.

Yr ydym yn wynebu cyfnod arswydus, a fydd yn gadael ein cyllidebau mewn anhrefn am flynyddoedd. Mae Llywodraeth Lafur wedi’n rhoi mewn sefyllfa lle mae pobl Prydain mewn mwy o ddyled na’r holl Lywodraethau blaenorol gyda’i gilydd. Mae arnaf ofn meddwl pa fath o anawsterau y bydd Cymru’n eu hwynebu yn y deng mlynedd nesaf o ganlyniad i hyn. Yn wahanol i’r Alban, nid oes gan Gymru bencadlysoedd busnesau mawr. Felly, yr ydym yn wlad sy’n dibynnu—neu a ddylai ddibynnu—ar fusnesau bach ac ysbryd entrepreneuraidd ein dinasyddion. Mae’r mwyafrif helaeth o gwmnïau Cymru’n cyflogi 10 neu lai o bobl, ac mae angen i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad roi llawer iawn mwy o gefnogaeth iddynt. Dylai roi blaenoriaeth i ryddhad ardrethi i fusnesau bach.

We face a cut of more than £400 million from our block grant next year. Of a total grant of £15 billion, that is a significant proportion. It is made all the more serious by

Yr ydym yn wynebu cwtogiad o dros £400 miliwn yn ein grant bloc y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae hynny’n gyfran sylweddol o gyfanswm o £15 biliwn. Yr hyn sy’n gwneud y mater yn

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the fact that we are a generation of politicians who have been used to relatively comfortable rises in our resources year on year. We will have to learn another way quickly, and that will have to last until 2018 at least—a date set by Alistair Darling’s budget predictions, which were generally judged to be wildly optimistic.

fwy difrifol fyth yw’r ffaith ein bod yn genhedlaeth o wleidyddion sydd wedi arfer gweld cynnydd gweddol gyfforddus yn ein hadnoddau y naill flwyddyn ar ôl y llall. Bydd yn rhaid inni ddysgu ffordd arall yn gyflym, a bydd yn rhaid i hynny bara tan 2018 o leiaf—dyddiad a bennwyd yn rhagfynegiadau cyllideb Alistair Darling, y barnwyd yn gyffredinol eu bod yn optimistaidd iawn.

We got the rant over with, I hope, during the Conservative motion. The Welsh Liberal Democrats are now giving the Assembly the opportunity to be grown up and to set out our priorities for the tough times ahead. All that we are doing is calling for the measures that are essential to getting Wales back on track to be protected and prioritised, and for them not to be seen as easy targets, which the Assembly Government seems to have done this year.

Yr wyf yn gobeithio ein bod wedi cael y brygowthan o’r ffordd yn ystod cynnig y Ceidwadwyr. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn rhoi cyfle yn awr i’r Cynulliad fod yn aeddfed a nodi’n blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y cyfnod anodd sydd i ddod. Y cyfan yr ydym yn ei wneud yw galw am ddiogelu a blaenoriaethu’r mesurau sy’n hanfodol er mwyn cael Cymru’n ôl ar y trywydd cywir, a sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael eu hystyried fel targedau hawdd, fel y mae’n ymddangos bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi gwneud eleni.

The lines that Labour has been given by its press office are twofold. It is entertaining, although sometimes rather depressing, to hear them repeated at every opportunity. Politicians in Wales trot them out just as politicians in London do. One line is to try to blame their mess on American bankers rather than face up to the fact that their party allowed Britain and Wales to become an economy built on the thin edge of a credit card. Before anyone expresses surprise about what happened to our economy, I repeat the warnings of Vince Cable, issued more than two years before the crash. He warned of the dangers of overindebtedness, the vast accumulation of personal debt, and the dangers of banks’ lending policies.

Mae’r llinellau y mae swyddfa’r wasg Llafur wedi eu rhoi iddi yn ddeublyg. Mae’n ddifyr, ond braidd yn ddigalon weithiau, eu clywed yn ailadrodd y llinellau hyn bob tro y ceir cyfle i wneud hynny. Mae gwleidyddion yng Nghymru’n eu hadrodd yn union yr un fath â’r gwleidyddion yn Llundain. Un llinell yw ceisio rhoi’r bai am y llanastr ar ysgwyddau bancwyr Americanaidd yn hytrach nag wynebu’r ffaith mai eu plaid hwy a ganiataodd i Brydain a Chymru ddod yn economi wedi ei hadeiladu ar ochr denau cerdyn credyd. Cyn i neb fynegi syndod ynglŷn â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd i’n heconomi, hoffwn ailadrodd y rhybuddion a roddwyd gan Vince Cable, dros ddwy flynedd cyn y gwymp. Rhybuddiodd ynglŷn â pheryglon mynd i ormod o ddyled, y dyledion personol enfawr a oedd yn crynhoi, a pheryglon polisïau benthyca’r banciau.

The second line that Labour politicians are given is the one about growing ourselves out of the recession. That is the line that is right. We do need to grow ourselves out of the recession. However, the problem is that the Assembly Government is not doing that. Cutting further education and higher education funding, cutting events that attract people into Wales and boost our tourism

Yr ail linell a roddir i wleidyddion Llafur yw’r un ynglŷn â’r ffordd y byddwn yn tyfu o’r dirwasgiad. Dyna’r ffordd iawn o fynd o’i chwmpas hi. Mae angen inni dyfu allan o’r dirwasgiad. Fodd bynnag, y broblem yw nad yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gwneud hynny. Mae torri ym maes addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, torri ar ddigwyddiadau sy’n denu pobl i Gymru ac yn hybu’n diwydiant

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industry and cutting local government spending are easy targets. You have to ask yourself why those are the targets. Analyse the common issue to all of those sectors: HE, FE, local government and events—the Assembly Government does not control them directly. The Assembly Government hopes that, by cutting those sectors, it will in some way evade the responsibility for the cuts. The problems with HE and FE, the problems of, for example, withdrawing a rally from Wales and the problems in local government can all be blamed on someone else and not on the Assembly Government. However, the chickens will come home to roost. Serious cuts will have to be made eventually by the Welsh Assembly Government in its own centralised pots of money and the jobs that those involve.

twristiaeth a thorri ar wariant llywodraeth leol yn dargedau hawdd. Rhaid ichi ofyn ichi’ch hun pam mai’r rheiny yw’r targedau. Dadansoddwch yr hyn sy’n gyffredin i bob un o’r sectorau hynny: addysg uwch, addysg bellach, llywodraeth leol a digwyddiadau—nid yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn eu rheoli’n uniongyrchol. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gobeithio, drwy dorri’r sectorau hynny, y bydd rhywsut yn osgoi’r cyfrifoldeb dros y toriadau. Mae’r problemau gydag addysg uwch ac addysg bellach, y problemau, er enghraifft, gyda rhoi’r gorau i noddi rali yng Nghymru a’r problemau mewn llywodraeth leol i gyd yn rhai y gellir eu beio ar rywun arall ac nid ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, daw hyn yn ôl ar eich pen. Bydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, maes o law, docio’i phyrsiau arian canolog ei hun yn ddifrifol ynghyd â’r swyddi sydd ynghlwm wrth y rheiny.

Slashing funding for training and skills does not make Wales grow. Slashing funding for local government does not make Wales grow. Slashing the jobs that go with that funding does not help Wales grow. It is time that the Welsh Assembly Government made those tough decisions. To start this, we need to force the Assembly Government to stop its cuts in economic measures, in skills investment and in research and development. Please support the motion unamended.

Nid yw slaesio’r cyllid ar gyfer hyfforddiant a sgiliau’n gwneud i Gymru dyfu. Nid yw slaesio’r cyllid ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yn gwneud i Gymru dyfu. Nid yw slaesio’r swyddi sy’n mynd gyda’r cyllid hwnnw’n gwneud i Gymru dyfu. Mae’n bryd i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wneud y penderfyniadau anodd hynny. Er mwyn dechrau ar y gwaith hwn, mae angen inni orfodi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i roi’r gorau i’r toriadau ym maes mesurau economaidd, buddsoddi mewn sgiliau ac ymchwil a datblygu. Cefnogwch y cynnig heb ei wella.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery (Andrew Davies): I move amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete point 2 and replace with:

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus (Andrew Davies): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu pwynt 2 a rhoi yn ei le:

welcomes the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to prioritise counter-cyclical, anti-recessionary expenditure across all its portfolios.

yn croesawu bwriad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i flaenoriaethu gwariant gwrthgylchol er mwyn ymladd y dirwasgiad ar draws pob portffolio.

David Melding: I am delighted to have this opportunity to continue our debate, in many ways, on the current economic situation and the effect on the budget. It is appropriate to be more specific in this debate about some of our responses to the challenges that lie ahead. It is a great test for devolution and will be a great test for all parties to identify those areas

David Melding: Yr wyf wrth fy modd o gael y cyfle hwn i barhau â’n dadl, mewn llawer ffordd, ynglŷn â’r sefyllfa economaidd bresennol a’r effaith ar y gyllideb. Mae’n briodol bod yn fwy penodol yn y ddadl hon ynglŷn â rhai o’n hymatebion i’r heriau sydd o’n blaen. Mae’n brawf mawr ar ddatganoli a bydd yn brawf mawr ar bob parti i ganfod y

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that we agree on. It is very important that we scrutinise the performance of the Government and that opposition parties develop alternatives. There are common factors on which we will agree, but being able to implement them effectively will be the great test for us.

meysydd hynny yr ydym yn cytuno yn eu cylch. Mae’n bwysig iawn ein bod yn craffu ar berfformiad y Llywodraeth a bod y gwrthbleidiau’n datblygu dewisiadau amgen. Mae ffactorau cyffredin y byddwn i gyd yn cytuno arnynt, ond bydd gallu eu rhoi ar waith yn effeithiol yn brawf mawr arnom.

What we can do in the field of economic development in Wales is significant, but limited. The wider factors that are determined by macro-economic policy from Westminster and the way in which we fit into the global and European economies are considerably beyond our direct control. We should be fair to the Government: when we urge it to do things, we should ensure that they fall realistically within its jurisdiction.

Mae’r hyn y gallwn ei wneud ym maes datblygu economaidd yng Nghymru’n sylweddol, ond yn gyfyngedig. Mae’r ffactorau ehangach sy’n cael eu pennu gan bolisïau macro-economaidd San Steffan a’r berthynas rhyngom â’r economi fyd-eang ac ag economi Ewrop y tu hwnt i’n rheolaeth uniongyrchol i raddau helaeth. Dylem fod yn deg â’r Llywodraeth: pan fyddwn yn ei hannog i wneud pethau, dylem sicrhau eu bod mewn gwirionedd o fewn ei hawdurdodaeth.

This recession is likely to be long and deep. It may be a bit longer and a bit deeper in Britain, but it will be a significant dent in the world economy. We have already seen, for the first time since the second world war, a reduction in global wealth on an annual basis. Therefore, it is a significant shock. However, it is not my intention now to dwell on what caused it and what might have been done to stop the worst effects. We have to look forward. We are where we are and we have to consider what we should do now.

Mae’r dirwasgiad hwn yn debygol o fod yn un hir a dwfn. Efallai y bydd fymryn yn hwy a mymryn yn ddyfnach ym Mhrydain, ond bydd yn dolc sylweddol yn economi’r byd. Yr ydym wedi gweld eisoes, am y tro cyntaf ers yr ail ryfel byd, gyfoeth y byd yn gostwng yn flynyddol. Felly, mae’n sioc anferth. Fodd bynnag, nid fy mwriad yn awr yw ymdroelli o gwmpas yr hyn a’i hachosodd a’r hyn y gallesid ei wneud i atal yr effeithiau gwaethaf. Rhaid inni edrych tua’r dyfodol. Yr ydym yn y fan lle’r ydym ac mae’n rhaid inni ystyried beth y dylem ei wneud yn awr.

Some of the long-term challenges that we face perhaps come into sharper focus during a period of economic austerity. The Welsh economy has traditionally suffered from low productivity. If we could do one thing, it would be to improve the skills of our workforce so that people have a greater control over their lives, more choices regarding how they develop their careers, so that they contribute to more effective companies and firms and take the opportunity to go into business themselves. If you look at company formation and people who go into self-employment, these things are key factors in measuring the entrepreneurial activity in any economy. We could do better in that area.

Efallai y daw rhai o’r heriau tymor hir a wynebwn yn eglurach inni yn ystod oes o lymder economaidd. Yn draddodiadol, mae economi Cymru wedi dioddef o gynhyrchedd isel. Pe gallem wneud un peth, gwella sgiliau ein gweithlu fyddai hynny er mwyn i bobl gael mwy o reolaeth dros eu bywydau, mwy o ddewisiadau ynglŷn â sut y maent yn datblygu eu gyrfa, er mwyn iddynt gyfrannu at gwmnïau mwy effeithiol a manteisio ar y cyfle i ddechrau eu busnes eu hunain. Os edrychwch ar ffurfio cwmnïau a’r bobl sy’n dewis mynd yn hunangyflogedig, mae’r pethau hyn yn ffactorau allweddol o ran mesur y gweithgarwch entrepreneuraidd mewn unrhyw economi. Gallem wneud yn well yn y maes hwnnw.

6.20 p.m.

We need to be courageous in looking at the Mae angen inni fod yn ddewr wrth inni

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way in which we use existing resources. We are not going to receive much more public expenditure in the next three or four years—that is probably putting it very mildly. Indeed, we may see significant cutbacks in certain areas. We all need to work to see how that can be done while promoting efficiency and protecting front-line services. We also need to look at other priorities that we have had over the years; a lot of money is spent on the budget of the Department for the Economy and Transport, and perhaps that needs to be reshaped in order to invest more in developing small private firms, as well as the private sector in general. We need to focus more on indigenous enterprise and helping SMEs in our current brand structures. Vast sums of money are being spent, but, traditionally, the biggest sums have been spent on trying to attract big investments from the outside.

edrych ar y ffordd yr ydym yn defnyddio’r adnoddau sydd gennym eisoes. Nid ydym yn mynd i gael llawer mwy o wariant cyhoeddus yn ystod y tair neu’r pedair blynedd nesaf—a dweud y lleiaf, mae’n debyg. Yn wir, efallai y gwelwn doriadau sylweddol mewn rhai meysydd. Mae angen inni i gyd weithio i weld sut y gellir gwneud hynny gan hybu effeithlonrwydd a gwarchod gwasanaethau’r rheng flaen ar yr un pryd. Mae angen inni hefyd edrych ar flaenoriaethau eraill a fu gennym dros y blynyddoedd; mae llawer o arian yn cael ei wario ar gyllideb Adran yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, ac efallai fod angen ad-drefnu hynny er mwyn buddsoddi mwy mewn datblygu cwmnïau bach preifat, yn ogystal â’r sector preifat yn gyffredinol. Mae angen inni ganolbwyntio mwy ar fentrau cynhenid ac ar helpu Busnesau Bach a Chanolig yn ein strwythurau brand presennol. Mae symiau enfawr yn cael eu gwario, ond, yn draddodiadol, mae’r symiau mwyaf wedi cael eu gwario ar geisio denu buddsoddiadau mawr o’r tu allan.

Jeff Cuthbert: I am grateful to you for allowing the intervention. Interestingly, compared with your speech in the previous debate, where you seemed to put all the blame on the UK Government, you are now acknowledging clearly that it is a global situation. I notice that change, and welcome it.

Jeff Cuthbert: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ganiatáu’r ymyriad. Mae’n ddiddorol, o’i gymharu â’ch araith yn y ddadl flaenorol, lle’r oeddech i bob golwg yn rhoi’r bai i gyd ar Lywodraeth y DU, yr ydych yn awr yn cydnabod yn glir ei bod yn sefyllfa fyd-eang. Sylwaf ar y newid hwnnw ac yr wyf yn ei groesawu.

In terms of using all of the resources that are at our disposal in Wales, would you join me in applauding the JEREMIE initiative, for example, and the way in which European structural funds will be targeted towards assisting and raising the skill levels of the Welsh workforce?

O ran defnyddio’r holl adnoddau sydd ar gael inni yng Nghymru, a fyddech yn ymuno â mi i groesawu cynllun JEREMIE, er enghraifft, a’r ffordd y targedir cronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop er mwyn cynorthwyo a chodi lefelau sgiliau gweithlu Cymru?

David Melding: If we can measure the scheme’s effectiveness in those areas where, traditionally, there has been high economic inactivity, and if the evidence shows that it works, not only will I welcome it, but I will celebrate it.

David Melding: Os gallwn fesur effeithiolrwydd y cynllun yn y meysydd hynny lle mae anweithgarwch economaidd mawr wedi bod, ac os bydd y dystiolaeth yn dangos ei fod yn gweithio, nid yn unig y byddaf yn ei groesawu, ond byddaf yn ei ddathlu.

I do not blame the whole economic situation on the British Government, and far less the Welsh Assembly Government. That is clearly hyperbole and goes too far. However, just as with the Conservative Government in the

Nid wyf yn beio’r sefyllfa economaidd i gyd ar Lywodraeth Prydain, ac yr wyf yn beio Llywodraeth y Cynulliad lai byth. Mae’n amlwg mai gor-ddweud yw hynny a’i fod yn mynd yn rhy bell. Fodd bynnag, fel yr oedd

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early 1990s and the early 1980s, what you should examine is whether the Government has made things worse or better than they would have been otherwise. I hold a view about the 1980s and 1990s, which is probably not shared by everybody here. However, I will be looking to hold this Government and, to some extent, the UK Government, to account for the decisions that are in their control, and for how wise they have been.

yn wir am Lywodraeth y Ceidwadwyr ddechrau’r 1990au a dechrau’r 1980au, yr hyn y dylech ei archwilio yw a yw’r Llywodraeth wedi gwneud pethau’n waeth ynteu’n well nag y buasent fel arall. Mae gennyf farn am yr 1980au a’r 1990au, nad yw pawb yma’n cytuno â hi, mae’n debyg. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn dal y Llywodraeth hon, ac i ryw raddau, Lywodraeth y DU, yn gyfrifol am y penderfyniadau sydd dan eu rheolaeth, ac am ba mor ddoeth y maent wedi bod.

Another area that we need to look at is how to establish a more knowledge-based economy. I speak with some direct experience—I did not get a chance to develop this point earlier—because one of the things that was not done particularly well in the 1980s, as we recovered from that particularly bad recession, was getting the long-term unemployed into work, as well as people leaving school with A-levels or leaving university. There was a huge number of people for whom the milk run was not open in the mid-1980s due to the contraction in the economy, and we should have done more then to identify that part of the workforce. Helping younger people into the job market is going to be key. I encourage more investment in supporting students to stay on at university and to study Master programmes with an enterprise component, if possible. That may be a good way to invest. I know that some programmes are being developed, which I welcome, but perhaps we could more in that area.

Maes arall y mae angen inni edrych arno yw sut mae sefydlu economi sy’n fwy seiliedig ar wybodaeth. Siaradaf gyda rhywfaint o brofiad uniongyrchol—ni chefais gyfle i ddatblygu’r pwynt hwn gynnau—oherwydd un o’r pethau na chafodd ei wneud yn arbennig o dda yn yr 1980au, wrth inni ymadfer o’r dirwasgiad arbennig o wael hwnnw, oedd cael gwaith i’r di-waith tymor hir, yn ogystal ag i bobl a oedd yn ymadael â’r ysgol gyda chymwysterau Safon Uwch neu’n ymadael â’r brifysgol. Yr oedd y llwybr swyddi ar gau i nifer enfawr yng nghanol yr 1980au oherwydd bod yr economi’n cywasgu, a dylem fod wedi gwneud mwy bryd hynny i adnabod y rhan honno o’r gweithlu. Bydd helpu pobl ifanc i ymuno â’r farchnad swyddi’n allweddol. Pwysaf am fwy o fuddsoddi i gynorthwyo myfyrwyr i aros yn y brifysgol ac astudio rhaglenni Meistr gyda chydran fenter, os oes modd. Efallai y byddai hynny’n ffordd dda o fuddsoddi. Gwn fod rhai rhaglenni’n cael eu datblygu, a chroesawaf hynny, ond efallai y gallem wneud mwy yn y maes hwnnw.

Michael German: From this debate, there are two things that I am looking for from the Government: the first is honesty, and the second is action.

Michael German: O’r ddadl hon, mae dau beth yr wyf yn gobeithio’i gael gan y Llywodraeth: gonestrwydd yw’r cyntaf, a’r ail yw gweithredu.

As regards honesty, we know that we are going to be suffering from a long-term decline in the budget that will be available to us. We have some disparity of view as to what that may be, and I am glad that the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery corrected today what he said yesterday when he claimed that the reduction in expenditure between 2011-12 and 2013-14 would not be more than £9 billion. That was contrary to the view expressed by Alistair Darling when he announced the budget.

O ran gonestrwydd, gwyddom ein bod yn mynd i ddioddef yn sgil dirywiad tymor hir yn y gyllideb a fydd ar gael inni. Mae’r farn ynglŷn â natur y dirywiad hwnnw’n amrywio, ac yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus wedi cywiro heddiw yr hyn a ddywedodd ddoe pan honnodd na fyddai’r gostyngiad yn y gwariant rhwng 2011-12 a 2013-14 yn fwy na £9 biliwn. Yr oedd hynny’n groes i’r farn a fynegwyd gan Alistair Darling pan

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Actually, it is going to be an year-on-year decrease. As you know, analysis supplied by the Members’ research service shows that that could mean a reduction in our budget, from 2011 to 2014, of £526 million a year, in addition to the sorts of reductions that we are currently seeing. The honesty that I want to see from the Government side is recognition that that reduction will continue year by year, that it is cumulative and predictable. It is absolutely right that we should be facing the troubles that we have in that context, rather than saying, ‘It’ll all be better in the morning’. I suspect that that is what Alistair Darling was trying to do in his budget, because he talked about growth returning soon. I think that he is the only person in the UK who believes that growth will return by the beginning of next year.

gyhoeddodd y gyllideb. A dweud y gwir, bydd y gostyngiad yn ostyngiad o’r naill flwyddyn i’r llall. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r dadansoddiad a ddarparwyd gan wasanaeth ymchwil yr Aelodau’n dangos y gallai hynny olygu gostyngiad o £526 miliwn y flwyddyn yn ein cyllideb rhwng 2011 a 2014, yn ogystal â’r mathau o ostyngiadau yr ydym yn eu gweld ar hyn o bryd. Y gonestrwydd yr wyf am ei weld gan y Llywodraeth yw cydnabyddiaeth y bydd y gostyngiad yn parhau o’r naill flwyddyn i’r llall, a’i fod yn ostyngiad cronnus y mae modd ei ragweld. Mae’n gwbl iawn ein bod yn wynebu’r trafferthion sydd gennym yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, yn hytrach na dweud, ‘Bydd popeth yn well yn y bore’. Yr wyf yn amau mai dyna yr oedd Alistair Darling yn ceisio’i wneud yn ei gyllideb, oherwydd soniodd am dwf yn dychwelyd cyn bo hir. Credaf mai ef yw’r unig un yn y DU sy’n coelio y bydd twf yn dychwelyd erbyn dechrau’r flwyddyn nesaf.

The question that we have to ask ourselves is: how do we grow ourselves out of this recession? Those were the words of the Minister and he was absolutely right. How should we invest in the future and what should we do to ensure that we build a better future for our people? That is the nub of our motion today, which the Government wishes to take out and replace with its amendment 1. I do not think that anybody in the Chamber would disagree with the fact that we should build our skills for the future—if you agree, stick with the motion as a whole. However, Members who represent the area served by Coleg Gwent will have heard today that that college, which provides training services for one in five of the people of Wales—it is Wales’s largest training provider and one of the largest in the UK—is being funded by this Government, this year, for a reduction of 500 full-time learners. We desperately need those people to be educated for the future. I have no idea how the college is supposed to bridge that gap. Quite clearly, if you believe in skills for the future, you should not be cutting the funding of our biggest training provider by that amount of money. That is apart from the fact that 74 full-time equivalent jobs are being lost as a result of this reduction in funding and it may affect a greater number of people than that—possibly well over 100. I ask the Minister to address

Y cwestiwn y mae’n rhaid inni ei ofyn inni’n hunain yw: sut mae tyfu allan o’r dirwasgiad hwn? Dyna eiriau’r Gweinidog ac yr oedd yn llygad ei le. Sut y dylem fuddsoddi yn y dyfodol a beth y dylem ei wneud i sicrhau ein bod yn adeiladu dyfodol gwell i’n pobl? Dyna hanfod ein cynnig heddiw, y mae’r Llywodraeth yn dymuno’i ddileu a rhoi ei gwelliant 1 yn ei le. Ni chredaf y byddai neb yn y Siambr yn anghytuno â’r ffaith y dylem adeiladu’n sgiliau ar gyfer y dyfodol—os cytunwch, glynwch wrth y cynnig yn ei grynswth. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli’r ardal y mae Coleg Gwent yn ei wasanaethu wedi clywed heddiw bod y cyllid a gaiff y coleg hwn gan y Llywodraeth hon, coleg sy’n darparu gwasanaethau hyfforddi ar gyfer un o bob pump o bobl Cymru—dyma ddarparwr hyfforddiant mwyaf Cymru ac un o’r mwyaf yn y DU—yn cyfateb i ostyngiad o 500 yn nifer y dysgwyr amser llawn. Mae gwir angen inni addysgu’r bobl hynny ar gyfer y dyfodol. Nid oes gennyf syniad sut mae’r coleg i fod i bontio’r bwlch hwnnw. Mae’n amlwg, os credwch mewn sgiliau ar gyfer y dyfodol, na ddylech fod yn torri cymaint o arian â hynny oddi ar gyllid ein darparwr hyfforddiant mwyaf. Mae hynny ar wahân i’r ffaith bod 74 o swyddi sy’n cyfateb i swyddi amser llawn yn cael eu colli yn sgil y gostyngiad hwn yn eu cyllid. Gall effeithio ar nifer fwy o bobl na hynny—o bosibl

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that issue. If you believe in skills, address that issue today and retain the right of that college, which covers one in five of the people of Wales, to be able to train as many people as it trained last year. The starting point would be to allow that college to train as many people as it trained last year.

ymhell dros 100. Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwnnw. Os ydych yn coelio mewn sgiliau, ewch i’r afael â’r mater hwnnw heddiw a chadw hawl y coleg hwnnw, sy’n darparu ar gyfer un o bob pump o bobl Cymru, i allu hyfforddi cynifer o bobl ag yr hyfforddodd y llynedd. Y pwynt cychwyn fyddai caniatáu i’r coleg hwnnw hyfforddi cynifer o bobl ag yr hyfforddodd y llynedd.

If we are going to invest in the future, clearly we are going to have a massive problem with capital expenditure. There is no doubt that, when you examine the red book and go through what the budget is to provide, all analysis shows that the capital budget is going to take one of the biggest hits of all over the coming years. What will that do for the hospital replacement and school replacement programmes? What will that do for housing, railways and new infrastructure? Surely, these are the areas in which we need to invest for the future. In capital terms, therefore, the Government has to come up with some answers as to how we can get money in to provide for capital expenditure. I say to the Government that it should not be so blind as to rule out all public-private partnerships in the run up to 2014. We should investigate such partnerships properly.

Os ydym yn bwriadu buddsoddi yn y dyfodol, mae’n amlwg y bydd gennym broblem fawr gyda’r gwariant cyfalaf. Nid oes amheuaeth, pan archwiliwch y llyfr coch a mynd drwy’r hyn y gall y gyllideb ei ddarparu, mae’r dadansoddiad i gyd yn dangos mai’r gyllideb cyfalaf a gaiff un o’r ergydion caletaf un dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Pa effaith a gaiff hynny ar y rhaglenni ar gyfer ysbytai ac ysgolion newydd? Beth a wnaiff hynny ar gyfer tai, rheilffyrdd a’r seilwaith newydd? Yn sicr, mae’r rhain yn feysydd y mae angen inni fuddsoddi ynddynt ar gyfer y dyfodol. O ran cyfalaf, felly, mae’n rhaid i’r Llywodraeth gynnig atebion ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gael arian i ddarparu ar gyfer y gwariant cyfalaf. Dywedaf wrth y Llywodraeth na ddylai fod mor ddall â diystyru pob partneriaeth gyhoeddus-breifat wrth ddynesu at 2014. Dylem archwilio partneriaethau o’r fath yn iawn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Will you wind up, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

Michael German: My final sentence, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, is this: I believe that this Government has to answer honestly now on the way in which it intends to build us out of this recession. It is insufficient to give us rhetoric. What we now need are the answers to those specific questions.

Michael German: Fy mrawddeg olaf, os caf, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yw hon: Credaf ei bod yn rhaid i’r Llywodraeth hon ateb yn onest yn awr ynglŷn â sut mae’n bwriadu adeiladu’r ffordd inni gamu o’r dirwasgiad hwn. Nid yw rhethreg yn ddigon. Yr hyn y mae ei angen arnom yn awr yw’r atebion i’r cwestiynau penodol hynny.

Chris Franks: We needed a real Welsh fiscal stimulus from this budget, which would have actively stimulated the Welsh economy and supported those worst hit by the recession. Unfortunately, we did not get such a stimulus. Plaid proposed a people’s budget that included an all-Wales railway network, an increase in the state pension and job seeker’s allowance, and a green new deal. We believe that connecting a twenty-first

Chris Franks: Yr oedd angen sbardun ariannol go iawn ar gyfer Cymru yn y gyllideb hon, a fyddai wedi mynd ati sbarduno economi Cymru ac wedi cefnogi’r rheiny sy’n dioddef waethaf yn sgil y dirwasgiad hwn. Yn anffodus, ni chawsom sbardun o’r fath. Cynigiodd Plaid Cymru gyllideb i’r bobl a oedd yn cynnwys rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, cynnydd ym mhensiwn y wladwriaeth

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century Wales to the European mainland must be a priority in the coming months and years.

a’r lwfans ceisio gwaith. a bargen werdd newydd. Credwn ei bod yn rhaid gwneud cysylltu Cymru’r unfed ganrif ar hugain â thir mawr Ewrop yn flaenoriaeth yn y misoedd a’r blynyddoedd nesaf.

6.30 p.m.

The UK Government’s cuts will cost Welsh public services billions of pounds from 2010 to 2014, and they are going ahead despite Labour figures recognising that cuts will be hugely damaging. As Yvette Cooper, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said last week on the BBC news channel, you should not cut spending in the middle of a recession. Other Labour figures, such as Stephen Byers, have agreed with Plaid that we should scrap identification cards and Trident, which would save £12 billion and £75 billion. Getting rid of the proposed ID cards and Trident would be a much better solution than that of continuing with cuts in Wales.

Bydd toriadau Llywodraeth y DU yn costio biliynau o bunnoedd i wasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru rhwng 2010 a 2014, ac maent yn mynd rhagddynt er bod pobl yn y blaid Lafur yn cydnabod y bydd toriadau yn eithriadol o niweidiol. Fel y dywedodd Yvette Cooper, Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys, yr wythnos diwethaf ar sianel newyddion y BBC, ni ddylech dorri gwariant yng nghanol dirwasgiad. Mae eraill yn y blaid Lafur, fel Stephen Byers, wedi cytuno â Plaid y dylem gael gwared â chardiau adnabod a Trident, a fyddai’n arbed £12 biliwn a £75 biliwn. Byddai cael gwared â’r cardiau adnabod arfaethedig a Trident yn ateb gwell o lawer na pharhau â thoriadau yng Nghymru.

We often hear about the benefit of the links between Labour Ministers in London and those in Cardiff, so what advantages have we achieved during the pre-budget discussions? I know that we have lost £416 million. Were the A400M transport aircraft and the future strategic tanker aircraft suggested, on behalf of the Assembly, for efficiency savings? Those failed projects would have saved £689 million if cancelled. How about the third tranche of the Eurofighter Typhoon? An efficiency saving of £888 million would have been possible if that were cancelled. How many millions would the cancellation of the two aircraft carriers save?

Clywn yn aml am fantais y cysylltiadau rhwng Gweinidogion Llafur yn Llundain a’r rhai yng Nghaerdydd, felly pa fanteision yr ydym wedi’u sicrhau yn ystod y trafodaethau rhag-gyllidebol? Gwn ein bod wedi colli £416 miliwn. A awgrymwyd yr awyren gludo A400M ac awyren dancer strategol y dyfodol, ar ran y Cynulliad, fel arbedion effeithlonrwydd? Byddai’r prosiectau aflwyddiannus hynny wedi arbed £689 miliwn pe caent eu canslo. Beth am drydedd cyfran yr Eurofighter Typhoon? Byddai arbedion effeithlonrwydd o £888 miliwn wedi bod yn bosibl pe câi hwnnw ei ganslo. Faint o filiynau y byddai canslo’r ddwy long awyrennau wedi’i arbed?

The Government in London should also look at how it manages its external contracts. As the all-party Public Accounts Committee estimated yesterday, as much as £300 million could be saved each year if the UK Government managed its contracts better.

Dylai’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain edrych hefyd ar y ffordd y mae’n rheoli contractau allanol. Fel yr amcangyfrifodd y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus hollbleidiol ddoe, gellid arbed cymaint â £300 miliwn bob blwyddyn petai Llywodraeth y DU yn rheoli ei chontractau’n well.

Successive Labour and Conservative Governments in London are responsible for this economic recession, as they followed market-led policies that put profit before

Mae Llywodraethau Llafur a Cheidwadol olynol yn Llundain yn gyfrifol am y dirwasgiad economaidd hwn, wrth iddynt ddilyn polisïau a gâi eu harwain gan y

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people. With the UK Government and the economy in such a mess, is it not time to start discussing how Wales could do better rather than worse on its own? Further billions are being introduced into construction sites in England, such as that for the Olympic Games, yet people here are not getting their share of spending.

marchnadoedd, a oedd yn rhoi elw cyn pobl. Gyda Llywodraeth y DU a’r economi yn y fath anhrefn, onid yw’n bryd dechrau trafod sut y gallai Cymru wneud yn well yn hytrach nag yn waeth ar ei phen ei hun? Mae biliynau pellach yn cael eu rhoi i safleoedd adeiladu yn Lloegr, megis yr un ar gyfer y Gemau Olympaidd, ond nid yw pobl yma yn cael eu cyfran deg o’r gwariant.

Jeff Cuthbert: Following your theme logically, if Wales was separate, we would have to raise all our own taxation. Have you done any calculations on what the increase in personal taxation would be, bearing in mind that we draw back from the Exchequer more than we contribute in income tax?

Jeff Cuthbert: A dilyn eich thema yn rhesymegol, petai Cymru ar wahân, byddai’n rhaid inni godi ein holl drethi ein hunain. A ydych wedi gwneud unrhyw gyfrifiadau i weld beth fyddai’r cynnydd mewn trethiant personol, a chofio ein bod yn cael mwy yn ôl gan y Trysorlys yn awr nag a gyfrannwn mewn treth incwm?

Chris Franks: Every part of the UK now draws back more from the Treasury than it contributes. As was quoted earlier, last week’s budget announcement revealed that the Government plans to spend £671 billion in the current year, yet only manages to raise £496 billion. There is a significant shortfall of £175 billion. Where does that money come from? Would you answer that question?

Chris Franks: Mae pob rhan o’r DU yn cael mwy yn ôl gan y Trysorlys yn awr nag y mae’n ei gyfrannu. Fel y dyfynnwyd yn gynharach, datgelodd cyhoeddiad y gyllideb yr wythnos diwethaf fod y Llywodraeth yn bwriadu gwario £671 biliwn yn y flwyddyn gyfredol, ond nid yw’n llwyddo i godi ond £496 biliwn. Mae diffyg sylweddol o £175 biliwn. O ble y daw’r arian hwnnw? A wnewch chi ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw?

A total of 75 per cent of Olympic spend could reasonably be treated as local economic regeneration, and Wales should not be sharing that cost.

Gallai cyfanswm o 75 y cant o’r gwariant Olympaidd gael ei drin yn rhesymol fel adfywio economaidd lleol, ac ni ddylai Cymru fod yn rhannu’r gost honno.

I am also deeply concerned about the proposal to turn the Royal Mint into a structured company. That is the first step towards privatisation. According to the UK Government’s logic, when a publicly owned business starts to make money, it should be privatised. That is another Conservative policy from the UK Government. Would the Liberal Democrats like to say a few words about the privatisation of the Royal Mint? That party was the first to advocate publicly the privatisation of the mint and the Royal Mail, and it is curious that, in this debate, the Liberal Democrat spokesperson has indicated that the terms of a contract are not important when you are dealing with Government money. That is interesting.

Yr wyf hefyd yn bryderus iawn ynglŷn â’r cynnig i droi’r Bathdy Brenhinol yn gwmni strwythuredig. Dyna’r cam cyntaf tuag at breifateiddio. Yn ôl rhesymeg Llywodraeth y DU, pan fydd busnes sydd mewn perchenogaeth gyhoeddus yn dechrau gwneud arian, dylai gael ei breifateiddio. Dyna bolisi Ceidwadol arall gan Lywodraeth y DU. A hoffai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddweud ychydig eiriau am breifateiddio’r Bathdy Brenhinol? Y blaid honno oedd y gyntaf i gymell yn gyhoeddus y dylid preifateiddio’r bathdy a’r Post Brenhinol, ac mae’n rhyfedd fod llefarydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn y ddadl hon, wedi dweud nad yw telerau contract yn bwysig pan fyddwch yn delio ag arian Llywodraeth. Mae hynny’n ddiddorol.

Jenny Randerson: Will you take an Jenny Randerson: A gymerwch chi

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intervention? ymyriad?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. He does not have time for an intervention.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Nid oes ganddo amser i ymyriad.

Chris Franks: Then we have the secret agenda of the Tories. Would the Tories—

Chris Franks: Yna mae gennym agenda gudd y Torïaid. A wnaiff y Torïaid—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Wind up, please.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben.

Chris Franks: I am running out of time. Chris Franks: Yr wyf yn rhedeg allan o amser.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You have run out of time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Yr ydych wedi rhedeg allan o amser.

Chris Franks: Would the Tories cut the pay of doctors and nurses? Would they charge for visits to GP surgeries? What are their plans for reducing children’s tax credits?

Chris Franks: A fyddai’r Torïaid yn torri cyflogau meddygon a nyrsys? A fyddent yn codi tâl am ymweliadau â meddygfeydd meddygon teulu? Beth yw eu cynlluniau i ostwng credydau treth plant?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You really must wind up now. You are way over time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rhaid ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr. Yr ydych ymhell dros eich amser.

Chris Franks: We really do need to know. Chris Franks: Mae gwir angen inni wybod hynny.

Peter Black: I am just trying to digest Chris’s last question. Chris, your party is in Government at the moment, so you answer your own questions. This debate is about what the Assembly Government is going to do with the money it has, and not about the fantasy savings that you conjured up—although I agree with some of them, I have to say. You will certainly not produce the money that we need by abolishing Trident or ID cards over the next couple of years, because we are faced, this year and next, with real-term cuts in the amount of money that we were expecting to get from Westminster. As a result, we will have to tighten our belts and make do with what we have. This debate is about how we prioritise that money and ensure that it is used in the best interests of the people of Wales.

Peter Black: Yr wyf yn ceisio amgyffred cwestiwn olaf Chris. Chris, mae eich plaid mewn Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd, felly atebwch eich cwestiynau eich hun. Dadl yw hon am yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn mynd i’w wneud gyda’r arian sydd ganddi, nid am arbedion ffantasi a gonsuriwyd gennych chi—er fy mod yn cytuno â rhai ohonynt, rhaid imi ddweud. Yn sicr, ni chynhyrchwch yr arian yr mae ei angen arnom drwy ddileu Trident na chardiau adnabod dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, oherwydd yr ydym, eleni a’r flwyddyn nesaf, yn wynebu toriadau mewn termau real o ran y swm o arian y disgwyliwn ei gael gan San Steffan. O ganlyniad, rhaid inni godi’r rhesel a dod i ben gyda’r hyn sydd gennym. Dadl yw hon am sut yr ydym yn blaenoriaethu’r arian hwnnw ac yn sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei ddefnyddio er lles pennaf pobl Cymru.

So yes, let us look at efficiency savings, but let us do so in a way that will protect public services here in Wales. Let us ensure that we get our priorities right. Let us focus on

Felly ie, gadewch inni edrych ar arbedion effeithlonrwydd, ond gadewch inni wneud hynny mewn ffordd a fydd yn gwarchod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru.

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economic development, job creation, skills and investment. That is precisely what your Government is not doing at the moment. I only have to look at the situation that further education finds itself in. Despite the fact that you put an extra £9 million in to try to scrabble back the cuts that your Government made to further education colleges’ funding, colleges such as Gorseinon have not received a single penny in extra funding, and are having to close campuses and make people redundant. Swansea has a £750,000 shortfall. Bridgend has a shortfall of £1 million. These funding shortages will lead to job losses and less investment in skills and training. That, Chris, is not the way to deal with a recession. Yes, you have to spend during a recession, but you have to invest that money.

Gadewch inni sicrhau ein bod yn cael ein blaenoriaethau’n iawn. Gadewch inni ganolbwyntio ar ddatblygu economaidd, creu swyddi, sgiliau a buddsoddi. Dyna’n union yr hyn nad yw eich Llywodraeth chi yn ei wneud ar hyn o bryd. Nid oes ond rhaid imi edrych ar y sefyllfa y mae addysg bellach ynddi. Er gwaethaf y ffaith ichi ychwanegu £9 miliwn er mwyn ceisio lleihau’r toriadau a wnaeth eich Llywodraeth i gyllid colegau addysg bellach, nid yw colegau fel Gorseinon wedi cael yr un geiniog o gyllid ychwanegol, ac mae’n gorfod cau campysau a diswyddo pobl. Mae gan Abertawe ddiffyg o £750,000. Mae gan Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr ddiffyg o £1 miliwn. Bydd y diffyg cyllid hwn yn arwain at golledion swyddi ac at lai o fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau a hyfforddiant. Chris, nid dyna’r ffordd i ddelio â dirwasgiad. Oes, mae’n rhaid ichi wario yn ystod dirwasgiad, ond rhaid buddsoddi’r arian hwnnw.

Turning to local government, the issues of economic development, job creation and skills that I referred to are all delivered by local government as well as by the Assembly Government. Our concern is that, faced with a decreasing Assembly budget—at least, it is not growing as fast as it should—this Government will do exactly what it did this year and ensure that local government bears the brunt of expenditure cuts, thereby ensuring that those in local government have to make the hard decisions. That is a genuine concern, because this Government’s record on managing its money is not good.

A throi at lywodraeth leol, mae datblygu economaidd, creu swyddi a sgiliau, y pethau y cyfeiriais atynt, i gyd yn cael eu darparu gan lywodraeth leol yn ogystal â chan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Ein pryder ni yw y bydd y Llywodraeth hon, o wynebu cyllideb i’r Cynulliad sy’n crebachu—o leiaf, nid yw’n tyfu mor gyflym ag y dylai—yn gwneud yn union yr hyn a wnaeth eleni ac yn sicrhau mai llywodraeth leol sy’n dioddef y gwaethaf o’r toriadau gwariant, gan sicrhau drwy hynny mai’r rhai mewn llywodraeth leol sy’n gorfod gwneud y penderfyniadau anodd. Mae hwnnw’n bryder gwirioneddol, oherwydd nid yw record y Llywodraeth hon o ran rheoli ei harian yn dda.

Wales relies on public sector jobs. That is not a good thing, because we need more private sector jobs. However, Wales relies on public sector jobs more than any other part of the United Kingdom. Around 23 per cent of jobs in Wales are in the public sector, and most of them are in local government. And yet the impact of the cuts that local government is being forced to make as a result of this year’s poor settlement means that hundreds of jobs will be lost in the public sector over the next two years. That is your party’s responsibility, Chris, and that of your partners in the Labour Party, because it is you who have decided not to pass on to local councils the 4.8 per cent increase that you had in your budget.

Mae Cymru’n dibynnu ar swyddi sector cyhoeddus. Nid yw hynny’n beth da, oherwydd mae angen rhagor o swyddi sector preifat arnom. Fodd bynnag, mae Cymru’n dibynnu mwy ar swyddi sector cyhoeddus nag unrhyw ran arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae tua 23 y cant o’r swyddi yng Nghymru yn y sector cyhoeddus, ac mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonynt mewn llywodraeth leol. Ac eto, mae effaith y toriadau y mae llywodraeth leol yn cael ei gorfodi i’w gwneud o ganlyniad i’r setliad gwael eleni yn golygu y caiff cannoedd o swyddi eu colli yn y sector cyhoeddus dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Cyfrifoldeb eich plaid chi yw hynny, Chris, ynghyd â’ch partneriaid yn y Blaid Lafur,

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oherwydd chi sydd wedi penderfynu peidio â throsglwyddo i gynghorau lleol y cynnydd o 4.8 y cant a gawsoch yn eich cyllideb.

As a result of the current recession, the Welsh economy will rely much more on public sector employment, and we need to ensure that the money that we put into that employment is used to best effect. That means that, when talking to, and in funding, local government, we should say that its priorities, like ours, should be economic development, job creation and skills. You are not going to do that by reducing the amount of money that local government has to work with, however.

O ganlyniad i’r dirwasgiad presennol, bydd economi Cymru yn dibynnu llawer mwy ar gyflogaeth sector cyhoeddus, ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod yr arian a neilltuwn i’r gyflogaeth honno yn cael ei ddefnyddio i’r perwyl gorau. Mae hynny’n golygu, wrth siarad â llywodraeth leol, a’i chyllido, y dylem ddweud mai’r priod flaenoriaethau iddi hi, fel ninnau, yw datblygu economaidd, creu swyddi a sgiliau. Ni wnewch hynny drwy leihau’r swm o arian sydd gan lywodraeth leol i weithio gydag ef, fodd bynnag.

Chris, I have listened to your contribution. On Trident, you would not see the money from that until about 2014. On ID cards, yes, I want to see that policy gone too, but the money for it will not come through for a few more years yet. We cannot just turn to Westminster and say, ‘You’re going to bail us out’, because the money is not there. You talked about independence on the one hand, but on the other hand you talk about asking the Government to bail us out. You really have to make up your mind. Do you want independence, or do you want to go on your knees to Westminster for more money? Frankly, you cannot do both. Unless you decide what you are going to do, we will end up in an even bigger mess.

Chris, yr wyf wedi gwrando ar eich cyfraniad. O ran Trident, ni welech yr arian o hynny tan oddeutu 2014. O ran cardiau adnabod, ydwyf, yr wyf finnau am weld diwedd ar y polisi hwnnw hefyd, ond ni fydd yr arian ar ei gyfer yn dod trwodd am rai blynyddoedd eto. Ni allwn droi’n syml at San Steffan a dweud, ‘Yr ydych yn mynd i achub ein croen’, oherwydd nid yw’r arian yno. Siaradasoch am annibyniaeth ar yr un llaw, ond ar y llaw arall yr ydych yn siarad am ofyn i’r Llywodraeth achub ein croen. Rhaid yn wir ichi benderfynu. A ydych am gael annibyniaeth, ynteu a ydych am fynd ar eich gliniau i San Steffan i gael rhagor o arian? A siarad yn blaen, ni allwch wneud y naill a’r llall. Oni phenderfynwch chi beth yr ydych am ei wneud, fe’n cawn ein hunain mewn mwy fyth o anhrefn.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I have not said much of what I wanted to say, because I was too engrossed in responding to Chris Frank’s contribution. However, we need to accept that this budget poses a significant challenge to Wales. The Assembly Government needs to make efficiency savings and focus them on the sectors named in our motion. Having read the amendment several times now, I am still trying to get to grips with its terminology:

Ddirprwy Lywydd, nid wyf wedi dweud llawer o’r hyn yr oeddwn am ei ddweud, gan fy mod wedi ymgolli gormod yn ymateb i gyfraniad Chris Frank. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni dderbyn bod y gyllideb hon yn her sylweddol i Gymru. Mae angen i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad wneud arbedion effeithlonrwydd a’u targedu at y sectorau a enwir yn ein cynnig. A minnau wedi darllen y gwelliant droeon erbyn hyn, yr wyf yn dal i geisio ymgodymu â’i derminoleg:

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‘to prioritise counter-cyclical, anti-recessionary expenditure across all its portfolios’.

‘i flaenoriaethu gwariant gwrthgylchol er mwyn atal y dirwasgiad ar draws pob portffolio’.

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The Government may need to invest in dictionaries, but, more importantly, it should think about jobs and the economy, instead of coming up with nonsense like this, seeking to amend motions that are sincerely meant.

Efallai fod angen i’r Llywodraeth fuddsoddi mewn geiriaduron, ond, yn bwysicach, dylai fod yn meddwl am swyddi a’r economi, yn hytrach na chynhyrchu nonsens fel hyn, gan geisio gwella cynigion a olygir yn ddiffuant.

Nick Ramsay: I will focus my comments on the effect of the budget on further education. I am pleased that we have a second debate on the budget this afternoon—we have had an afternoon of talking at length about the economy—but it is, at the end of the day, the cornerstone of everything that we try to achieve. Without a solid economy and without steps for us to grow the economy out of recession effectively, we will not come out of it best placed to deal with the problems that we face.

Nick Ramsay: Canolbwyntiaf fy sylwadau ar effaith y gyllideb ar addysg bellach. Yr wyf yn falch fod gennym ail ddadl ar y gyllideb y prynhawn yma—yr ydym wedi cael prynhawn o siarad yn helaeth am yr economi—ond yr economi, yn y pen draw, yw conglfaen popeth y ceisiwn ei gyflawni. Heb economi gadarn a heb gamau inni dyfu’r economi allan o’r dirwasgiad yn effeithiol, ni ddown allan ohoni yn y sefyllfa orau i ddelio â’r problemau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu.

I also attended the meeting that Mike German mentioned earlier about Coleg Gwent. There is serious concern not just about the standstill budget that Coleg Gwent faces, but about the situation that institutions across south Wales are facing, and will continue to face, without the adequate funding that they need. We are in difficult times—I am sure that the Minister will point out that we are in a global recession, which is not all this Government’s fault, and that we were heading into the recession anyway—but Wales went into the recession in a worse position than other countries in terms of being able to face it and to meet the challenges of the modern world.

Yr oeddwn innau hefyd yn y cyfarfod a grybwyllodd Mike German yn gynharach ynglŷn â Choleg Gwent. Mae pryder difrifol nid dim ond ynglŷn â’r gyllideb ddigyfnewid y mae Coleg Gwent yn ei hwynebu, ond ynglŷn â’r sefyllfa y mae sefydliadau ar draws y de yn eu hwynebu, ac y byddant yn parhau i’w hwynebu, heb y cyllid digonol y mae ei angen arnynt. Yr ydym mewn cyfnod anodd—yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith ein bod mewn dirwasgiad byd-eang, nad yw i gyd yn fai’r Llywodraeth hon, a’n bod yn anelu at ddirwasgiad beth bynnag—ond aeth Cymru i’r dirwasgiad mewn gwaeth sefyllfa na gwledydd eraill o ran bod yn abl i’w wynebu ac i ymateb i sialensiau’r byd modern.

Other countries recognise the importance of adequately funding FE and HE sectors. The growing funding gap between institutions in Wales and those in England, which we constantly talk about, cannot be accepted. If we want to grow ourselves out of recession—I take on board what the Minister said about growing ourselves rather than cutting ourselves out of recession, which is a noble aim—we need action, and not just rhetoric. As far as I can see, there is much more rhetoric and soundbites about dealing with the economic problem than there is of real action. The amendment that Peter Black mentioned, welcoming the Assembly Government’s intention to prioritise counter-cyclical expenditure, is great on the face of it

Mae gwledydd eraill yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd cyllido’r sectorau addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yn ddigonol. Ni ellir derbyn y bwlch cyllido cynyddol rhwng sefydliadau yng Nghymru a’r rhai yn Lloegr, yr ydym yn siarad amdano’n barhaus. Os ydym am dyfu ein hunain o’r dirwasgiad—yr wyf yn derbyn yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog am dyfu ein hunain yn hytrach na thorri ein hunain o’r dirwasgiad, sy’n nod rhagorol—mae angen gweithredu arnom, nid dim ond rhethreg. Cyn belled ag y gwelaf fi, mae llawer mwy o rethreg a seindalpiau ynglŷn â delio â’r broblem economaidd nag sydd o weithredu gwirionedd. Mae’r gwelliant a grybwyllodd Peter Black, yn croesawu bwriad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i

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—we all believe that those sorts of measures are necessary in a recession—but it does not deal with the kind of deficit facing further education and local government.

flaenoriaethu gwariant gwrthgylchol, yn ardderchog ar yr wyneb—yr ydym i gyd yn credu bod y mathau hyn o fesurau yn angenrheidiol mewn dirwasgiad—ond nid yw’n delio â’r math o ddiffyg sy’n wynebu addysg bellach a llywodraeth leol.

Gareth Jones: You paint a bleak picture of FE. I dare say that certain colleges are suffering, but can you explain why certain colleges are seeing an increase in their budgets?

Gareth Jones: Yr ydych yn peintio darlun llwm o addysg bellach. Mae’n siŵr gen i fod rhai colegau’n dioddef, ond a allwch egluro pam mae rhai colegau’n gweld cynnydd yn eu cyllidebau?

Nick Ramsay: I do not mean to paint an overly bleak picture, Gareth—forgive me for that; it is perhaps because it is late in the day. I did say that we were heading into recession in any case, but the situation is bleak because we are in a far worse position than we should be in terms of dealing with it. In answer to your question, you might be able to identify individual institutions that have seen an increase in their budgets, but there is no question that the FE sector overall faces a huge funding problem, which is an issue that is constantly raised with me, as I am sure that it is with the Minister for education and all Assembly Members.

Nick Ramsay: Nid wyf yn ceisio peintio darlun rhy lwm, Gareth—maddeuwch imi am hynny; efallai mai’r rheswm yw ei bod mor hwyr. Fe ddywedais ein bod yn anelu tuag at ddirwasgiad beth bynnag, ond mae’r sefyllfa’n llwm oherwydd yr ydym mewn sefyllfa lawer gwaith nag y dylem fod ynddi o ran delio ag ef. I ateb eich cwestiwn, efallai y gallwch enwi sefydliadau unigol sydd wedi gweld cynnydd yn eu cyllidebau, ond nid oes unrhyw gwestiwn fod y sector addysg bellach drwyddo draw yn wynebu problem gyllido enfawr, mater sy’n cael ei godi’n gyson gyda mi, fel yr wyf yn siŵr y mae gyda’r Gweinidog dros addysg a holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad.

To close, the problem may be that Gordon Brown thought that we had seen an end to boom and bust—he proclaimed on many occasions that the old days of boom and bust were over and that we were moving into a different economic framework. When the Labour Government came to power, if action had been taken to invest for the future we would now be going into the recession in better shape than is currently the case.

I gloi, efallai mai’r broblem yw bod Gordon Brown yn meddwl ein bod wedi gweld diwedd ar ffynnu a methu—datganodd droeon fod yr hen ddyddiau o ffynnu a methu drosodd a’n bod yn symud i fframwaith economaidd gwahanol. Pan ddaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur i rym, petai camau wedi cael eu cymryd i fuddsoddi ar gyfer y dyfodol, byddem yn mynd i’r dirwasgiad yn awr mewn gwell siâp nag yr ydym ynddo ar hyn o bryd.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery (Andrew Davies): The temperature in the Chamber has fallen somewhat during this debate, as opposed to the other debate on the budget—even David Melding has cooled down somewhat.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus (Andrew Davies): Mae’r tymheredd yn y Siambr wedi gostwng rhywfaint yn ystod y ddadl hon, mewn cyferbyniad â’r ddadl arall ar y gyllideb—mae hyd yn oed David Melding wedi ymbwyllo rhywfaint.

We oppose the motion proposed by Peter Black, because we believe that it is up to us as a Government to prioritise funding across portfolios. As I said yesterday, and again today, at a UK level we are faced with an

Gwrthwynebwn y cynnig a gyflwynwyd gan Peter Black, oherwydd credwn mai mater i ni fel Llywodraeth yw blaenoriaethu cyllid ar draws portffolios. Fel y dywedais ddoe, ac eto heddiw, ar lefel y DU yr ydym yn

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unprecedented economic downturn. The Chancellor was right in the summer when he said that it would be the worst downturn in 60 years. Other people described it as an economic tsunami, which is an accurate metaphor

wynebu dirywiad economaidd na welwyd ei debyg. Yr oedd y Canghellor yn iawn yn yr haf pan ddywedodd mai hwn fyddai’r dirywiad gwaethaf mewn 60 mlynedd. Disgrifiodd pobl eraill ef fel tswnami economaidd, sy’n drosiad cywir.

We as an Assembly Government believe—and it is a view that is shared by many bodies, including CBI Wales, the Wales TUC and many others—that we have responded dynamically and proactively to the challenges with which we are faced. The first economic summit was held last year, chaired and led by the First Minister. As a result, we have already taken swift, practical and collaborative action to support people and businesses through the global downturn. A series of measures have been announced, and they have not just been policy announcements, but practical measures and actions—I emphasise that actions have been taken—ranging from those in relation to procurement, infrastructure, housing, energy efficiency, skills training and funding to a reduction in business and property rates.

Yr ydym ni fel Llywodraeth Cynulliad yn credu—ac mae’n farn a rennir gan lawer corff, gan gynnwys CBI Cymru, TUC Cymru a llawer mwy—ein bod wedi ymateb yn ddynamig ac yn rhagweithiol i’r heriau sy’n ein hwynebu. Cynhaliwyd yr uwchgynhadledd economaidd gyntaf y llynedd, a Phrif Weinidog Cymru’n ei chadeirio a’i harwain. O ganlyniad, yr ydym eisoes wedi cymryd camau cyflym, ymarferol a chydweithredol i gefnogi pobl a busnesau drwy’r dirwasgiad byd-eang. Cyhoeddwyd cyfres o fesurau, ac nid cyhoeddiadau polisi mohonynt yn unig, ond mesurau a chamau ymarferol—pwysleisiaf fod camau wedi’u cymryd—yn amrywio o’r rheiny mewn cysylltiad â chaffael, seilwaith, tai, effeithlonrwydd ynni, hyfforddiant sgiliau a chyllid i leihau ardrethi busnes ac eiddo.

We are recognised as being at the forefront of developing innovative approaches to the impact of the recession, such as the ProAct scheme. In discussions with my finance Minister colleagues in Northern Ireland and Scotland and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, it is recognised that, in Wales, we are probably responding more proactively than other devolved administrations. The ProAct scheme is a very practical measure that has already helped around 2,000 people to stay in their jobs and, at the same time, to develop their skills. That secures not only their own future but that of their company. We are determined to keep as many people as possible in their jobs through the recession and to use every opportunity to enhance the skills of those in work and of those seeking work.

Cydnabyddir ein bod ar flaen y gad o ran datblygu ymagweddau arloesol at effaith y dirwasgiad, fel cynllun ProAct. Mewn trafodaethau â’m cyd-Weinidogion cyllid yng Ngogledd Iwerddon a’r Alban a Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys, cydnabyddir ein bod ni, yng Nghymru, yn ymateb yn ôl pob tebyg yn fwy rhagweithiol na gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill. Mae cynllun ProAct yn fesur ymarferol iawn sydd eisoes wedi helpu tua 2,000 o bobl i aros yn eu swyddi ac, ar yr un pryd, i ddatblygu eu sgiliau. Yn ogystal â sicrhau eu dyfodol eu hunain, mae’n sicrhau dyfodol eu cwmni. Yr ydym yn benderfynol o gadw cynifer o bobl â phosibl yn eu swyddi drwy’r dirwasgiad a defnyddio pob cyfle i gryfhau sgiliau’r rheiny mewn gwaith a’r rheiny sy’n chwilio am waith.

I know that the Tories will not like me for returning to this theme, but that is in marked contrast to what happened when they were in charge of the Welsh economy in the 1980s and the 1990s and their view, which they still hold, as illustrated by, I believe, their deputy chairman, who has said that the recession should be allowed to run its course. We do

Gwn na fydd y Torïaid yn hoff ohonof am ddychwelyd at y thema hon, ond mae hynny mewn cyferbyniad amlwg â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd pan oeddent yn gyfrifol am economi Cymru yn y 1980au a’r 1990au a’u barn, y maent yn gafael ynddi o hyd, fel y dangoswyd, yr wyf yn credu, gan eu dirprwy gadeirydd, sydd wedi dweud y dylid caniatáu

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not believe in that nihilistic philosophy; we believe in dynamic action.

i’r dirwasgiad ddilyn ei gwrs. Nid ydym yn credu yn yr athroniaeth nihilaidd honno; credwn mewn gweithredu dynamig.

David Melding: It is gracious of the Minister to give way—[Interruption.]

David Melding: Mae’r Gweinidog yn raslon yn ildio—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Can we listen to the debate, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A gawn ni wrando ar y ddadl, os gwelwch yn dda?

David Melding: The Conservative Party does not passively believe that the recession should run its course, but there is an inevitability to recessions in that they last several quarters, and long ones last up to two years, and then we have to manage the recovery and do our best to mitigate the immediate challenges that we face. You say that we say that we should not take extraordinary action and change some existing policies to make them more effective to deal with the recession. We completely accept the need for that and that is why we have come up with our own policies urging you to take certain actions.

David Melding: Nid yw’r Blaid Geidwadol yn credu’n oddefol y dylai’r dirwasgiad ddilyn ei gwrs, ond mae dirwasgiadau’n anochel eu natur gan eu bod yn para sawl chwarter, a bod rhai hir yn para hyd at ddwy flynedd, ac wedyn mae’n rhaid inni reoli’r adfer a gwneud ein gorau i liniaru’r heriau uniongyrchol a wynebwn. Dywedwch ein bod ni’n dweud na ddylem gymryd camau anghyffredin a newid rhai polisïau presennol i’w gwneud yn fwy effeithiol i ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad. Yr ydym yn derbyn yn llwyr fod angen hynny a dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno ein polisïau ein hunain gan erfyn arnoch i gymryd rhai camau.

Andrew Davies: I believe that it was the deputy chairman of your party who said in the House of Commons that this recession should be allowed to run its course. Your record as a party, if you look at the 1980s and the 1990s, is that the downturn of the economy in the early 1980s was exacerbated by Geoffrey Howe’s deflationary budget of 1981, which led to 20 per cent of Welsh manufacturing disappearing almost overnight. We then had the Lawson boom and bust, which may have won you the 1987 general election, but led to a massive overvaluation of property and the subsequent bust. I will not therefore take any lessons from the Tories on how to respond to economic downturns, because, in most cases, you have not only made them worse but created them in the first place.

Andrew Davies: Credaf mai dirprwy gadeirydd eich plaid a ddywedodd yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin y dylid caniatáu i’r dirwasgiad hwn ddilyn ei gwrs. Os edrychwch ar y 1980au a’r 1990au, eich hanes fel plaid yw bod cyllideb ddatchwyddol Geoffrey Howe yn 1981 wedi gwaethygu dirywiad yr economi tua dechrau’r 1980au, ac wedi arwain at 20 y cant o weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru yn diflannu bron dros nos. Cawsom wedyn ffyniant a methiant Lawson, a lwyddodd efallai i ennill etholiad cyffredinol 1987 i chi, ond a arweiniodd at orbrisio eiddo’n ofnadwy a’r methiant dilynol. Ni chymeraf felly ddim gwersi gan y Torïaid ar sut i ymateb i ddirywiadau economaidd, oherwydd, gan amlaf, nid yn unig yr ydych wedi’u gwaethygu ond chi a’u creodd yn y lle cyntaf.

Ann Jones: Do you share my view about the fact that, during the 215 miserable months that the Tories were in power, unemployment was higher for 205 of those months than it is now, namely that it shows that the Tories have no compassion for workers or their families?

Ann Jones: A ydych chi’n rhannu fy marn am y ffaith bod diweithdra, yn ystod y 215 o fisoedd diflas yr oedd y Torïaid mewn grym, yn uwch ar gyfer 205 o’r misoedd hynny nag y mae yn awr, gan ddangos nad oes gan y Torïaid ddim tosturi at weithwyr na’u teuluoedd?

Andrew Davies: Absolutely. One of the Andrew Davies: Yn bendant. Un o recordiau

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proudest records of the Assembly Government is that, until the recession—[Interruption.]

balchaf Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw, tan y dirwasgiad—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Be quiet, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Byddwch yn dawel, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew Davies: For most of the time, we have had an unemployment level lower than that of the United Kingdom, undoing the damage that the Tories caused the Welsh economy when they were in charge.

Andrew Davies: Y rhan fwyaf o’r amser, bu gennym lefel ddiweithdra is na lefel y Deyrnas Unedig, yn dadwneud y niwed a achosodd y Torïaid i economi Cymru pan oeddent yn gyfrifol amdani.

In the time left to me, I will just say that, as a Government, we are taking practical action to deal with the economic downturn. For example, £91 million of capital budgets is to be brought forward from 2010-11 to 2009-10 in order to invest in labour-intensive projects across Wales. Despite what David Melding said, it is not just about announcing capital expenditure, but putting money into the Welsh economy, creating employment and demand. As I said, this investment will provide an important stimulus to the Welsh economy.

Yn yr amser a adawyd imi, dywedaf yn unig ein bod, fel Llywodraeth, yn cymryd camau ymarferol i ymdrin â’r dirywiad economaidd. Er enghraifft, mae £91 miliwn o gyllidebau cyfalaf am gael eu dwyn ymlaen o 2010-11 i 2009-10 er mwyn buddsoddi mewn prosiectau llafurddwys ledled Cymru. Er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd David Melding, nid yw’n golygu cyhoeddi gwariant cyfalaf yn unig, ond rhoi arian i mewn i economi Cymru, gan greu cyflogaeth a galw. Fel y dywedais, bydd y buddsoddiad hwn yn rhoi ysgogiad pwysig i economi Cymru.

6.50 p.m.

In addition, with the strategic capital investment framework, we are taking a new, proactive and strategic approach to capital investment, putting flesh on the bones of our ‘One Wales’ commitment to delivering a step change in our approach to planning and delivering capital investment programmes. Already, the first tranche of the SCIF—19 capital projects—is making a real difference in Wales.

Yn ogystal, gyda’r fframwaith buddsoddi cyfalaf strategol, yr ydym yn cymryd ymagwedd newydd, ragweithiol a strategol at fuddsoddi cyfalaf, gan roi cig ar esgyrn ein hymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i newid yn sylweddol ein hymagwedd at gynllunio a chyflwyno rhaglenni buddsoddi cyfalaf. Eisoes, mae cyfran gyntaf y fframwaith—19 o brosiectau cyfalaf—yn gwneud gwahaniaeth go iawn yng Nghymru.

It is not just about dealing with the recession and the downturn; it is also about ensuring that we are leading Wales out of the recession. We have been advocating to the UK Government our approach to helping the Welsh economy to prepare for the upturn. Therefore, we warmly welcome the strategic investment fund, and particularly its focus on what could be called ‘industrial activism’. The Chancellor has outlined the fact that this will benefit areas such as advanced manufacturing and digital and biotechnologies, areas that the First Minister and I have both promoted to the UK Government, and which are of particular

Nid yw’n golygu ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad a’r dirywiad yn unig; mae hefyd yn golygu sicrhau ein bod yn arwain Cymru o’r dirwasgiad. Buom yn hyrwyddo i Lywodraeth y DU ein hymagwedd at helpu economi Cymru i baratoi ar gyfer y gwelliant. Croesawn y gronfa buddsoddi strategol yn frwd felly, ac yn arbennig ei ffocws ar yr hyn y gellid ei alw’n ‘weithrediaeth ddiwydiannol’. Mae’r Canghellor wedi amlinellu’r ffaith y bydd hyn o fudd i feysydd fel gweithgynhyrchu uwch a thechnolegau digidol a biotechnoleg, meysydd y mae’r Prif Weinidog a minnau wedi’u hyrwyddo i Lywodraeth y DU, ac

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importance to us in Wales, given our manufacturing and research base. We also warmly welcome those measures in the budget that will benefit business and the community, such as support for young people who are unemployed for more than a year, as well as support for low-carbon industries, which, again, puts flesh on the bones of our commitment to sustainable development.

sydd o bwysigrwydd arbennig i ni yng Nghymru, ac ystyried ein sail weithgynhyrchu ac ymchwil. Croesawn yn frwd hefyd y mesurau hynny yn y gyllideb a fydd o fudd i fusnes a’r gymuned, fel cymorth i bobl ifanc sy’n ddi-waith am fwy na blwyddyn, yn ogystal â chymorth i ddiwydiannau carbon isel sydd, eto, yn rhoi cig ar esgyrn ein hymrwymiad i ddatblygu cynaliadwy.

In closing, we oppose the Liberal Democrat motion, which is why the amendment in the name of Carwyn Jones has been tabled. We believe that we are using our budget to provide a counter-cyclical economic stimulus. We are also able to benefit from UK Government-wide measures. Wales will inevitably be called upon to play its part in helping to balance the books in years to come. We cannot be immune to the UK spending squeeze to get the national debt back to sustainable levels. As I said earlier, the budget has been framed to meet major economic challenges, but it also provides opportunities to assist the economy and public services.

I gloi, gwrthwynebwn gynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, sef pam y cyflwynwyd y gwelliant yn enw Carwyn Jones. Credwn ein bod yn defnyddio ein cyllideb i ddarparu symbyliad economaidd gwrth-gylchol. Yr ydym hefyd yn gallu elwa o fesurau Llywodraeth y DU gyfan. Gelwir yn anochel ar Gymru i chwarae ei rhan i helpu i fantoli’r cyfrifon yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Ni allwn osgoi gwasgfa wario’r DU i gael y ddyled genedlaethol yn ôl i lefelau cynaliadwy. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mae’r gyllideb wedi’i fframio i fodloni heriau economaidd mawr, ond mae hefyd yn rhoi cyfleoedd i gynorthwyo’r economi a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

In great contrast to the Tories, we accept that there will be a squeeze on public finances but, unlike the Tory plans, there will not be an overall cut in spending. We believe that we are providing the foundations for a sustainable and stable future for Wales. Please support the amendment.

Mewn cyferbyniad mawr â’r Torïaid, derbyniwn y bydd cyllid cyhoeddus yn cael ei wasgu, yn wahanol i gynlluniau’r Torïaid, ni fydd toriad cyffredinol mewn gwariant. Credwn ein bod yn darparu’r sylfeini ar gyfer dyfodol cynaliadwy a sefydlog yng Nghymru. Cefnogwch y gwelliant os gwelwch yn dda.

Kirsty Williams: I wish to begin by thanking all of my colleagues who have contributed to this evening’s debate. Jenny began by outlining the unprecedented situation in which we find ourselves. The budget, as revealed by Alistair Darling last week, showed us the desperate state of public finances. The UK has accumulated a huge and unsustainable debt, and the International Monetary Fund sees us as among the worst placed of developed countries to deal with the current economic recession.

Kirsty Williams: Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i’m holl gyd-Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl heno. Dechreuodd Jenny drwy amlinellu’r sefyllfa ddigynsail sydd ohoni. Dangosodd y gyllideb, fel y’i datgelwyd gan Alistair Darling yr wythnos diwethaf, sefyllfa daer cyllid cyhoeddus inni. Mae’r DU wedi cronni dyled anferth ac anghynaliadwy, ac mae’r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol yn ystyried ein bod ymhlith y gwledydd datblygedig yn y sefyllfa waethaf i ymdrin â’r dirwasgiad economaidd cyfredol.

Wales is already suffering. There have been huge job losses in the private sector, and, as we have seen, the public sector has not been immune either. This recession has already been particularly damaging to those areas that

Mae Cymru eisoes yn dioddef. Collwyd llawer iawn o swyddi yn y sector preifat, ac, fel y gwelsom, ni osgowyd y sector cyhoeddus ychwaith. Bu’r dirwasgiad hwn eisoes yn arbennig o niweidiol i’r meysydd

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got so little out of the so-called Gordon Brown boom years. This is not a recession that is hitting the well-off in the south-east of England; it is doubling the pain of those communities that have not recovered from what the Conservative Government did. We have gambled everything; we have even gambled our future in the way that Alistair Darling has looked at public finances. It will mean decades of tighter spending, whichever way the Minister for finance chooses to explain the £9 billion-worth of efficiency savings that Alistair Darling announced.

hynny a gafodd gyn lleied o flynyddoedd ffyniant honedig Gordon Brown. Nid dirwasgiad mo hwn sy’n bwrw’r cyfoethogion yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr; mae’n dyblu poen y cymunedau hynny nad ydynt wedi gwella o’r hyn a wnaeth y Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Yr ydym wedi mentro popeth; yr ydym hyd yn oed wedi mentro ein dyfodol yn y modd y mae Alistair Darling wedi edrych ar gyllid cyhoeddus. Bydd yn golygu degawdau o wario tynnach, pa ffordd bynnag y dewisa’r Gweinidog dros gyllid egluro’r gwerth £9 biliwn o arbedion effeithlonrwydd a gyhoeddodd Alistair Darling.

Jenny Randerson and David Melding acknowledged the challenge that that situation leaves us in, as an Assembly. As we approach our tenth anniversary, we will have to deal with a very different budgeting scenario—and those of us who have been here from the beginning have seen sizeable increases in the Assembly budget year on year. We will face a whole new scenario in future budgeting rounds. Whomever you want to blame, whether you consider it to be global, due to the inadequacies of Gordon Brown or of those City of London wide boys, the issue is that it will be up to us, and only us, to put forward a solution here on behalf of the people of Wales.

Cydnabu Jenny Randerson a David Melding yr her y mae’r sefyllfa’n ei golygu i ni, fel Cynulliad. Wrth inni nesáu at ein degfed pen-blwydd, bydd yn rhaid inni ymdrin â sefyllfa gyllidebu wahanol iawn—ac mae’r rheiny ohonom a fu yma o’r dechrau wedi gweld cyllideb y Cynulliad yn cynyddu cryn dipyn y naill flwyddyn ar ôl y llall. Byddwn yn wynebu sefyllfa newydd sbon yng nghylchoedd cyllidebu’r dyfodol. Pwy bynnag yr hoffech roi bai arno, waeth a ystyriwch ei bod yn broblem fyd-eang, oherwydd diffygion Gordon Brown neu ddiffygion y mân droseddwyr hynny yn Ninas Llundain, y broblem yw mai ein cyfrifoldeb ni, a ni yn unig, fydd cyflwyno ateb yma ar ran pobl Cymru.

It will be our votes and decisions that will set the budget for our nation. We will have to come up with our own. That is what makes Chris Franks’s contribution on behalf of Plaid Cymru so depressing to listen to. It was yet more hand-wringing and a list of cuts to projects that you are right to say, Chris, I would like to see the back of. However, these cuts will do nothing to help Welsh citizens or to help this Government to respond to this challenge today. There was no indication in Chris’s contribution about the role that Plaid Cymru will take in shaping the Government’s response to the particular challenges that it faces. You have a job to do and a challenge to face on that side of the coalition, and it seems that you have little guts for what is facing you.

Ein pleidleisiau a’n penderfyniadau ni a fydd yn gosod y gyllideb i’n cenedl ni. Bydd yn rhaid inni ddod o hyd i’n rhai ein hunain. Dyna sy’n ei gwneud mor ddiflas gwrando ar gyfraniad Chris Franks ar ran Plaid Cymru. Cafwyd eto mwy o wasgu dwylo a rhestr o doriadau i brosiectau y byddwn, fel y dywedwch Chris, yn falch o weld eu cefnau. Fodd bynnag, ni wnaiff y toriadau hyn ddim i helpu dinasyddion Cymru nac i helpu’r Llywodraeth hon i ymateb i’r her hon heddiw. Nid oedd dim arwydd yng nghyfraniad Chris am rôl Plaid Cymru i ffurfio ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r heriau arbennig a wyneba. Mae gennych waith i’w wneud a her i’w hwynebu ar yr ochr honno o’r glymblaid, ac mae’n debyg nad oes llawer o galon gennych am yr hyn sy’n eich wynebu.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery has been a little more forthcoming

Bu’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus ychydig yn fwy

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and at least acknowledges the difficult situation that the Welsh Assembly Government has been placed in. Andrew Davies talks of ‘dynamism’. I am sure that counter-cyclical, anti-recessionary expenditure can indeed be dynamic, but what does that mean to Mrs Jones of Gorse avenue? She does not want to hear about your counter-cyclical, anti-recessionary expenditure; she wants to know about her family’s job prospects, her children’s school’s budget and what will happen to the doctors and nurses at her local hospital. Andrew’s answer to Mrs Jones is, ‘Much greater efficiency’.

agored ac mae o leiaf yn cydnabod y sefyllfa anodd y rhoddwyd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ynddi. Mae Andrew Davies yn siarad am ‘ddynamiaeth’. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gall y gwariant gwrth-gylchol, gwrth-ddirwasgiad fod yn ddynamig yn wir, ond beth y mae hynny’n ei olygu i Mrs Jones o Stryd y Gors? Nid oes arni eisiau clywed am eich gwariant gwrth-gylchol, gwrth-ddirwasgiad; mae arni eisiau gwybod am ragolygon swydd ei theulu, cyllideb ysgol ei phlant, a’r hyn a fydd yn digwydd i’r meddygon a’r nyrsys yn ei hysbyty lleol. Ateb Andrew i Mrs Jones yw, ‘Effeithlonrwydd llawer gwell’.

In most people’s books, that means cuts. However, Andrew is right. We will have to find a better way and we will have to look at a smarter way of delivering services in Wales. We have to examine every single penny that the Welsh Assembly Government spends. I suggest that, if it does not lead to direct services, it must be questioned and it must be looked at extremely carefully with a view to redirecting it if it does not.

I’r rhan fwyaf o bobl, mae hynny’n golygu toriadau. Fodd bynnag, mae Andrew yn iawn. Bydd yn rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ffordd well a bydd yn rhaid inni edrych ar ffordd graffach o gyflenwi gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid inni archwilio pob un geiniog y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n ei gwario. Os nad yw’n arwain at wasanaethau uniongyrchol, awgrymaf ei bod yn rhaid ei chwestiynu ac edrych arni’n ofalus dros ben gyda’r bwriad o’i hailgyfeirio os felly.

Efficiency goes only so far. Efficiency leads to real human suffering. Last year, Powys County Council’s adult services department was told to make £2 million-worth of efficiency savings in its adult social care budget. It has been asked to do the same this year. The result is that 30 elderly patients are languishing in community hospital beds because there is no money in social services, following those efficiency gains, to place them in residential care. That is the human cost of efficiency savings: people without the services that they desperately need.

Dim ond i ryw raddau yr aiff effeithlonrwydd. Mae effeithlonrwydd yn arwain at bobl yn dioddef go iawn. Y llynedd, dywedwyd wrth adran gwasanaethau oedolion Cyngor Sir Powys wneud gwerth £2 miliwn o arbedion effeithlonrwydd yn ei chyllideb gofal cymdeithasol i oedolion. Gofynnwyd iddi wneud yr un peth eleni. O ganlyniad, mae 30 o gleifion oedrannus yn dihoeni mewn gwelyau ysbyty cymunedol gan nad oes arian mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn dilyn yr enillion effeithlonrwydd hynny, i’w rhoi mewn gofal preswyl. Dyna gost ddynol arbedion effeithlonrwydd: pobl heb y gwasanaethau y mae eu hangen arnynt mor daer.

Jeff Cuthbert: According to the wording of your motion, you are calling on the Welsh Assembly Government to protect economic development, job creation, skills investment, and support for Welsh businesses. I do not object to that in principle, but you are now talking about health and social care, which is definitely not included in your list. Are you saying that you would not cut health and social care or that you are comfortable with

Jeff Cuthbert: Yn ôl geiriad eich cynnig, yr ydych yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i amddiffyn datblygu economaidd, i greu swyddi, i fuddsoddi mewn sgiliau ac i gefnogi busnesau Cymru. Nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu hynny mewn egwyddor, ond yr ydych bellach yn siarad am iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, sy’n bendant wedi’u hepgor o’ch rhestr. A ydych chi’n dweud na fyddech yn torri iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol neu eich

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making cuts to those services to support others? Where do you stand on that matter?

bod yn gyffyrddus â gwneud toriadau i’r gwasanaethau hynny i gefnogi eraill? Ble yr ydych chi’n sefyll ar y mater hwnnw?

Kirsty Williams: The Welsh Liberal Democrat motion seeks to do what no-one else in the Chamber has been prepared to: set out a starting point. We have set out this starting point because, without a strong economy, we will not be able to get ourselves out of the recession that we are in, and we will continue to have no money for social services and education. This is our starting point, Jeff. If you do not agree with it, you can vote against the motion. However, at least we are beginning the discussion to consider the priorities for this Government. That has sadly been lacking from both the First Minister in his answers to questions yesterday and the Minister for finance in his responses to questions and his contribution to today’s debate.

Kirsty Williams: Mae cynnig Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n ceisio gwneud yr hyn na fu neb arall yn y Siambr yn barod i’w wneud: pennu man cychwyn. Yr ydym wedi pennu’r man cychwyn hwn oherwydd, heb economi gref, ni fyddwn yn gallu tynnu ein hunain allan o’r dirwasgiad sydd ohoni, ac ni fydd arian gennym o hyd ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg. Dyma ein man cychwyn, Jeff. Os nad ydych yn cytuno ag ef, gallwch bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym o leiaf yn dechrau’r drafodaeth i ystyried y blaenoriaethau i’r Llywodraeth hon. Yn anffodus, bu diffyg hynny gan y Prif Weinidog yn ei atebion i gwestiynau ddoe a’r Gweinidog dros gyllid yn ei ymatebion i gwestiynau a’i gyfraniad at ddadl heddiw.

We have to start from a point of priority. We believe that getting the Welsh economy back on a stronger footing is the quickest way to ensure that we can return to better public spending levels for all those other services. Jeff, you can agree or disagree, but at least we are beginning to have that debate. It seems as though your party and especially your partners cannot even begin to contemplate it.

Mae’n rhaid inni ddechrau o safbwynt blaenoriaeth. Credwn mai dychwelyd economi Cymru at sail gryfach yw’r ffordd gyflymaf o sicrhau y gallwn ddychwelyd at well lefelau gwario cyhoeddus i’r holl wasanaethau eraill hynny. Jeff, gallwch gytuno neu anghytuno, ond yr ydym o leiaf yn dechrau cael y ddadl honno. Mae’n ymddangos nad yw eich plaid chi na’ch partneriaid yn arbennig yn gallu dechrau ei hystyried hyd yn oed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The first vote is on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Peter Black. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae’r bleidlais gyntaf ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio a gyflwynwyd yn enw Peter Black. Os na chaiff y cynnig ei dderbyn, byddwn yn pleidleisio ar y gwelliant a gyflwynwyd i’r cynnig.

Are there any objections? I see that there are, so we will move straight to voting time.

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod, felly symudwn yn syth i’r cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Vote deferred until voting time.

7.00 p.m.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Cynnig NDM4197: O blaid 15, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 30.Motion NDM4197: For 15, Abstain 0, Against 30.

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Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4197: O blaid 30, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 16.Amendment 1 to NDM4197: For 30, Abstain 0, Against 16.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, David

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

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Lloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment agreed.

Motion NDM4197 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4197 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes: 1. yn nodi:

a) the Chancellor’s UK budget statement of 22 April; and

a) datganiad cyllideb y DU gan y Canghellor ar 22 Ebrill; a

b) the proposed cuts in UK Government expenditure and the likely impact on Wales;

b) y toriadau arfaethedig yng ngwariant Llywodraeth y DU a’r effaith debygol ar Gymru;

2. welcomes the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to prioritise counter-cyclical, anti-recessionary expenditure across all its portfolios.

2. yn croesawu bwriad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i flaenoriaethu gwariant gwrthgylchol er mwyn ymladd y dirwasgiad ar draws pob portffolio.

Cynnig NDM4197 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 29, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 16.Motion NDM4197 as amended: For 29, Abstain 0, Against 16.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyJames, IreneJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, Carl

Bates, MickBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, Kirsty

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Thomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, Joyce

Derbyniwyd y cynnig NDM4197 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4197 as amended agreed.

Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have received notice from Alun Cairns that he wishes to move a procedural motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi cael rhybudd gan Alun Cairns ei fod yn dymuno cynnig cynnig trefniadol.

Alun Cairns: I move that Alun Cairns: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, under Standing Order No. 7.26, agrees to postpone the short debate tabled in the name of Brynle Williams.

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.26, yn cytuno gohirio’r ddadl fer a gyflwynwyd yn enw Brynle Williams.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to postpone the short debate. Does any Member object? I see that there are no objections. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, therefore, the motion is agreed.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig sydd gerbron yw ein bod yn gohirio’r ddadl fer. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 7.02 p.m.The meeting ended at 7.02 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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