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Bob Cringely

Im Bob Cringely,

161995

16 years ago when I was making my television series Triumph of the Nerds, I interviewed Steve

Jobs.

1985CEO John Sculley

That was in 1995, 10 years earlier Steve had left Apple, following a bruising struggle with John

Sculley, the CEO he had brought into the company.

NeXT

At the time of our interview, Steve was running NeXT, the niche computer company he founded

after leaving Apple.

18NeXT

Little did we know was within 18 months he would sell NeXT to Apple, and 6 month later he'd be

running the place.

[00:59]

The way things work in television we use only a part of that interview in the series.

And for years we thought the interview was lost for forever

because the master tape were missing while being shipped from London to US in the 1990s.

Paul SenVHS

Then just a few days ago, series director Paul Sen found a VHS copy of that interview in his

garage.

There are very few TV interviews with Steve Jobs and almost no good ones.

They rarely show the charisma, candor and vision that this interview does.

And so to honor an amazing man, heres that interview in its entirety,

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Most of these has never been seen before.

[01:40]

Bob:

Bob: So, how did you get involved, uh, with personal computers?

Steve: 10 11

Steve: Well, I ran into my first computer when I was about 10 or 11.

And its hard to remember back then but Im, Im an old fossil now, Im an old fossil...

30

So when I was 10 or 11, that was about 30 years ago and no one had ever seen a computer.

To the extent theyd seen them, theyd seen them in the movies.

And they were really big boxes with whirring. For some reason they fixated it on the tape drives,

as being the icon of what the computer was, or flashing light somehow.

And, so nobody had ever seen one. They were mysterious, very powerful things that did

something in the background.

And so to see one and actually get to use one was a real privilege back,

NASA Ames

and I got into NASA Ames Research Center and I got to use a time sharing terminal.

And so I didnt actually see a computer but I saw a time sharing terminal.

And in those days its hard to remember how primitive it was. There were no such things as a

computer with a graphics video display.

It was literally a printer. It was a teletype printer with keyboard on it,

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so you would keyboard this commands in and you would wait for a while, and then things would

go "tatatatatata", and it would tell you something else.

[02:58]

But even with that, it was still remarkable, especially for a 10-year-old,

Basic Fortran

that you could write a program in BASIC, let's say, or FORTRAN.

And actually this machine would sort of take your idea, and it would sort of execute your idea and

give you back some results.

And if they were the results you predicted, your program really work, and it was incredibly

thrilling experience.

So I became very err.... captivated by computer.

And a computer to me was still a little mysterious

cause it's at the other end of wire, I had never really seen the actual computer itself.

I think I got tours of computers after that, saw the insides,

and then I was part of this group at Hewlett-Packard

12 Bill Hewlett

when I was 12, I called up Bill Hewlett who lived in Hewlett-Packard at the time.

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And again this dates me... But there was no such thing as unlisted telephone number then,

so I can just look into the book and look his name up.

[04:01]

Steve Jobs

And he answered the phone, and I said Hi, My name is Steve Jobs. You don't know me,

12

but I'm 12 years old, and I'm building a frequency counter, and I'd like some spare parts.

20

and so he talked to me for about 20 minutes,

I will never forget as long as I live, he gave me the parts, but he also gave me a job working in

Hewlett-Packard that summer.

12

and I was 12 years old. and that really made a remarkable influence on me,

Hewlett-Packard was really the only company I'd ever seen in my life at that age.

And it forms my view of what a company was and how well they treated their employees.

[04:40]

You know, at that time, I mean they didn't know about cholesterol back then.

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And then at that time they used to bring a big car full of donuts and coffee out at 10 o'clock every

morning,

and everyone take a coffee and have a donut break, just little things like that .

It was clear that the company recognized its true values was its employees.

Palo Alto

So anyway, things led to things with HP and I started going up to their Palo Alto Research Labs

every Tuesday night,

with a small group of people to meet some of the researchers and staffs.

HP 9100

and I saw the first desktop computer ever made which was the HP 9100.

CRT

It was that as big as a suitcase but it actually had a small Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) display in it.

And it was completed self-contained. There was no wire going off behind the curtain somewhere,

and I fell in love with it.

Basic APL

And you could program BASIC in APL. And I would just, for hours, you know, get right up to HP

and just hang around that machine and write programs for it.

Steve Wozniak

so that was the early days. And I met Steve Wozniak around that time too.

maybe a little earlier, when I was about 14, 15 years old.

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and way in the bowels of their technical library, way down at the last bookshelf in the corner

bottom rack.

AT&T

We found an AT&T Technical Journal that laid out the whole thing.

(AT&T:http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT&T)

And that's another moment I'll never forget.

We saw this journal and we thought "My God! It's all real".

And so we set out to build a device to make these tones.

And the way it work was, you know when you make long distance call you used to hear

"dududududu" right in the background.

They were tones that sound like the touch tone you make on your phone, but they were a different

frequency so you couldnt make them.

It turned out that was the signal from one telephone computer to another,

controlling the computers in the network.

AT&T

And AT&T made a fatal flaw when they designed an original telephone network, digital telephone

network,

was they put the signal in from computer to computer in the same band as your voice,

which meant if you could make those same signals, you could put it right into the handset.

AT&TAT&T

And literally, the entire AT&T international phone network would think that you were an AT&T

computer.

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So after three weeks we finally built a box like this, that worked.

Woz

And I remember the first call we made was down to, uh, LA, one of Wozs relativesdown in

Pasadena.

We dialed the wrong number. But we woke some guy up in the middle of the night.

we were yelling at him like Dont you understand we made this call for free!

and this person didnt appreciate that. But it was miraculous.

And we build these little boxes to do Blue Boxing as it was called.

logo

And we put a little note in the bottom of them, and our logo was hes got the whole world in his

hands, hahaha

And, they worked. We built the best blue box in the world, it was all digital, no adjustments.

[08:44]

And, so you could go to the pay phone, you could, you know, take a trunk over the white plane,

and take a satellite over the Europe, and then go to Turkey, take a cable back to Atlanta.

You could go around the world, you could go around the world 5 or 6 times cause we learned all

the codes and how to get on the satellite and stuff.

And then you could call the pay phone next doors, so you could shout at the phone,

after about a minute it would come to another phone, it was, it was miraculous.

And you might ask what so interesting about that.

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What so interesting is that we were young, and what we learned was that we could build

something, ourselves,

that could control billions of dollars worth of infrastructure in the world.

That was what we learned, was that, us, two, you know, we didnt know much,

we could build the little thing that could control a giant thing.

And that was an incredible lesson. I dont think there would have ever been an Apple computerhad there not been Blue Box.

[09:51]

Bob: Woz

Bob: Woz said you called the Pope?

Steve:

Steve: Yeah, we did call the Pope. He, uh, he pretended to be Henry Kissinger.

And we get the number of the Vatican and we called the pope.

They started waking people up in the hierarchy, you know, I dont know, Cardinals, and this and

that.

And they actually sent someone to wake up the Pope.

When finally we burst out laughing they realized that we werent Henry Kissinger.

(Henry Kissingerhttp://baike.baidu.com/view/21632.htm)

And, so we never got the talk to the Pope but it was very funny, so...

Bob:

Bob: So the jump from Blue Boxes to personal computers, what sparked that?

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Steve:

Steve: Well, necessity.

Mountain View

In a sense that there was time sharing computers available, and there was a time sharing company

in Mountain View that we could get free time on.

So, but we need a terminal. And we couldnt afford one. So we designed and built one.

And that was the first thing we ever did, we built this terminal.

Apple I

So what an Apple I was, was really an extension of this terminal, putting a micro process aroundthe back end.

Thats what it was. Its really a kind of two separate projects put together.

Apple I

So first we built the terminal and then we built the Apple I.

[11:03]

And we, we really built it for ourselves because we couldnt afford to buy anything.

And we scavenge parts here and there and stuff. And we built this all by hand

40~80

I mean it take, you know, 40 to 80 hours to build one, and it would always be breaking cause all

these little tiny wires.

So it turned out that a lot of our friends want to build them, too.

And although they could scavenge most of the parts as well, they didnt have the sort of skills to

build them that we had acquired by training ourselves through building them.

So we ended up helping them build most of their computers and it was really taking up all of our

time.

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And we thought, you know, if we could make, whats called printed circuit board,

which is a piece of fiberglass with copper on both sides thats etched to form the wire,

Apple I

so that you can build a computer, you know, you can build an Apple I in a few hours instead of 40

hours.

if we only had one of those, we could sell them to all of our friends for, you know as much as it

cost to make them, make our money back

and everybody would be happy, we say, wed get a life again.

[12:18]

MicrobusWoz

So we did that. I sold my Volkswagen bus and Steve sold his calculator,

we got enough money to pay a friend of us to make the art work to make a printed circuit board.

And we made some printed circuit boards, and we sold some to our friends,

Microbus

and I was trying to sell the rest of them so we can get micro bus and calculator back.

Mountain View

And I walked into the first computer store in the world, which was the Byte Shop of a Mountain

View, I think, on El Camino.

It metamorphosized within an adult bookstore a few years later, but at this point, it was the Byte

Shop.

Paul Terrell

And the person I ran into, I think his name was Paul Terrell.

(Mountain View: http://baike.baidu.com/view/732047.htm

Paul Terrell:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Terrell

(Byte Shop:http://www.techcn.com.cn/index.php?edition-view-133489-1)

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Paul 50

He said You know, Ill take 50 of those, I said this is great.

But I want them fully assembled

[13:00]

We never thought of this before, so we then kicked this around,

we thought Why not? Why not try this?

And so I spent the next several days on the phone talking with electronic parts distributors,

we didnt know what we were doing, and we said, look, here is the parts that we need

100

We figured wed buy a hundred sets of parts, build 50,

50

sell them to the Byte Shop for twice what they cost us to build them,

50

therefore paying for the whole hundred and then we have 50 left so we could make our profits by

selling those.

30

so we convince these distributors to give us the parts on net 30 days credit.

We have no idea what that meant... Net 30? sure... sign in here, so we have 30 days to pay them.

Apple I 50

So we bought the parts, we built the products and we sold 50 of them to the Byte Shop in Palo

Alto,

29 30

and got paid in 29 days and went to pay off the parts people in 30 days.

And so we were in business, but we have the classic Marxian profit realization crisis,

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[14:00]

50

the profit wasnt in liquid currency, our profit was in 50 computers sitting in the corner.

so then all of a sudden, we had to think, wow, how we gonna realize our profit?

so we started thinking about distribution, are there any other computer stores?

We started calling the other computer stores we had heard of across the country. We just kind of

eased into business that way.

[14:19]

[Mike Markkula]

The third key figure in the creation of Apple was the former Intel executive Mike Markkula

[ Steve]

I ask Steve how he came aboard.

Mike Markkula:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/%E8%BF%88%E5%85%8B%C2%B7%E9%A9%AC%E5%BA%93%E6%8B%89

Apple II

Steve: We were designing the Apple II.

And we really had some, some much higher ambitions for the Apple II.

Woz

Woz's ambitions were he wanted to add color graphics.

[14:45]

My ambition was that,

it was very clear to me that while there were a bunch of hardware hobbyists, they could assemble

around the computers,

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or at least take our board, and add the transformers for the power apply, the case, the keyboard,

and go get, and etc. You know, go get rest of the stuff.

For everyone of those, there were a thousand of people, they couldn't do that but wanted to mess

around with programming,

10

software hobbyists, just like I had been, you know, when I was 10, discovering that computer.

Apple II

And so my dream for the Apple II was to sell the first real packaged computer, packaged personal

computer.

You didn't have to be a hardware hobbyist at all.

Apple II

And so combining both of those dreams, we actually designed a product.

And I found the designer and we designed the packaging and everything.

And we wanted to make it out of plastic and we had the whole thing ready to go.

But we needed some money for tooling the cases and things like that. We needed a few thousand

of dollars. And this was way beyond our means.

So I went looking for some venture capital.

Don ValentineAnd I ran across one venture capitalist name Don Valentine, who came over to the garage

and he later said I look like a renegade from the human race, that was his famous quote.

(Don Valentine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Valentine)

And he said he wasn't willing to invest us but he recommended a few people that might.

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Mike Markkula

One of those was Mike Markkula.

[16:02]

Mike

So I called Mike on the phone and he came over.

Mike

And Mike had retired at about 30 or 31 from the Intel,

30

he was a product manager there and got a little bit stock.

And, you know, made like a million bucks on stock options, which at that time was quite a lot of

money.

And hed been investing in oiling and gas deals and kind of staying at home, doing that sort of

thing.

And he, I think, was, was kind of antsy to get back into something. And Mike and I hit it off very

well.

Mike

And so Mike said, "OK, I'll invest",

after a few weeks and I said "No, we don't want your money , we want you."

Mike

So we convince Mike to actually throw in with us, as an equal partner.

And so Mike put in some money, and Mike put in himself, and three of us went off.

Apple II

We took this design, and it was virtually done as an Apple II, and tooled it up, and announced it,

Apple II

a few months later at the West Coast Computer Faire.

(West Coast Computer Faire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire)

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Bob:

Bob: What was that like?

Steve: Apple II

Steve: It was great. We got the best,

you know this West Coast Computer Faire was small at that time, but to us it was very large,

[17:12]

Apple II

and, so we had this fantastic booth there, err, we had a projection television showing the Apple II

and showing its graphics

PC

which today look very crude but at that time were by far the most advanced graphics on the

personal computer.

and I think, you know, my recollection is that we stole the show,

[17:30]

and a lot of dealers and distributors started lining up and we were off and running.

Bob::

Bob: How old were you?

Steve: 21

Steve: 21

Bob: 21

Bob: 21? you were 21 and you were a big success,

you have just sort of done it by the seat of your pants. You dont have any particular training on

this.

How do you learn to run a company?

Steve:

Steve: err you know, throughout the years in business, I found something,

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which was I always ask why you do things,

and the answers you invariably get are oh thats just the way its done,

nobody knows why they do what they do, nobody thinks about things very deeply in business,

thats what I found. Id like to give you an example.

Apple I

When we were building our apple Is in the garage, we knew exactly what they cost.

Apple II

when we got into factory in the Apple II days, the accounting had this notion of the standard cost,

where you kind of set a standard cost at the end of a quarter, and you adjust with a variance,

and I kept asking why do we do this?

and the answer is thats just the way its done,

6

and after about 6 months of digging into this, what I realized was the reason you do it is because

you dont really have good enough controls to know about how much cost,

so you guess, and you fix your guess at the end of the quarter.

And the reason why you dont know how much it cost is because your information systems arent

good enough.

so ...but nobody said it that way.

Macintosh

So later on when we design this automated factory for Macintosh, we were able to get rid of a lot

of these antiquated concepts,

and know exactly what something costs to the second.

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So in business, a lot of things are I call it folklore,

they are done because they were done yesterday, and the day before.

And ...so what that means is that if you are willing to sort of ask a lot of questions, think about

things and work really hard,

you can learn business pretty fast, not the hardest thing in the world.

Bob:

Bob : Not rocket science?

Steve:

Steve: Its not rocket science. No

Bob: HP 9100

Bob: Now...when you were first coming in contact with these computers and inventing them and

before that working on the HP 9100, you do talk about writing programs.

What sort of programs? What do people actually do with these things?

Steve:

A: See what we did with them, well, I would give you a simple example

when we were designing our blue-box we used we wrote a lot of custom programs to help us

design it.

you know to do a lot of the dog work for us in terms of calculating,

master frequencies with sub-devisors to get the other frequencies and things like that

we use computer quite a bit to calculate how much error we would get in the frequencies, and how

much can be tolerated.

so we use them in the work, but much more importantly, it does nothing to do with using them for

anything practical

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have to do with using them to be a mirror of your thought process, to actually learn how to think.

...

I think the greatest value of learning how to think....

I think everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer, should learn a

computer language,

because it teaches you how to think, its like going to law school,

I dont think anybody should be a lawyer, but I think going to law school may actually be usefulcoz it teaches you how to think in a certain way.

In the same way the computer programming teaches you in a slightly different way how to think...

And so I view computer science as a liberal art.

It should be something everybody takes in a year in their life, one of the courses they take is, youknow learning how to program.

[21:33]

Bob: APL

Bob: I learned APL, you know, obviously, is part of the reason why I'm going through life

sideways.

Steve: ?

Steve: Was it you look back and consider it, enriching experience that taught you to think in adifferent way, or not?

Bob: APL

Bob: Err... No, not that particularly. Other language perhaps more so, I started with APL.

Apple II

So I mean, obviously, the Apple II was a terrific success, just incredibly so. And the company

grew like topsy and eventually went public

and you guys got really rich. What's it like to get rich?

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Steve: 23 100

Steve: It's very interesting. I was worth, err, about over a million dollars when I was 23,

2425

and over 10 million dollars when I was 24, and over a hundred million dollars when I was 25.

And it wasn't that important, Because I never did it for the money.

I think money is wonderful thing because it enables you to do things,

it enables you to invest ideas that don't have a short term payback and things like that.

But especially at that point in my life, it was not the most important thing.

The most important thing was the company, the people, the products we were making, what we

were going to enable people do with these products.

So I didn't think about it a great deal and I never sold any stock,

and just really believe the company would do very well over the long term.

[1979 Palo Alto]

Central to the development of the personal computers was the pioneering work

[ PCPalo Alto]

being done at Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, which Steve first visited in 1979.

(Palo Alto Research Center http://baike.baidu.com/view/3455290.htm)

I had 3 or 4 people who kept bugging me that I get my rear over the Xerox Park and see what they

are doing.

And so I finally did. I went over there, and they were very kind and they showed me what they

were working on.

And they showed me really three things,

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but I was so blinded by the first one that I didn't ever really see the other two.

One of the things they show me was object oriented programming, they show me that. But I didn't

even see that.

The other one they show me was really a network computer system,

email

they had over hundred Alto computers all networked using email, etc,

I didnt even see that.

I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me, which was graphically user interface.

I thought it was the best thing I had ever seen in my life.

Now, remember, it was very flawed, when we saw it, it was incomplete,

they had done bunch of things wrong, but we didnt know that at that time,

its still though they have the germ of the idea was there, and they had done it very well

[24:27]

and within, you know, 10 minutes, it was obvious to me that all computers would work like thissomeday, it was obvious,

I mean you can argue about how many years it would take, and you can argue about who the

winners and losers might be,

but you couldnt argue about the inevitability it was so obvious,

you would have felt the same way had you been there.

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Bob: Paul Allen,

Bob: You know, thats those were exactly words Paul Allen used. Its really interesting.

Steve:

Steve: Yeah, its obvious.

Bob:

Bob: But there were two visits you saw and you brought some people back with you,

and what happened the next time, they made you cool your heels for a while.

Steve:

Steve: No.

Bob: Adele Goldberg

Bob: No? Well, Adele Goldberg says otherwise.

Steve:

Steve: what do you mean?

Bob:

Bob: Well, she did the demo when the group came back,

3she said that she argued against doing it for 3 hours,

and they took you to other places showing you other things while she was arguing.

Steve:

Steve: oh you mean they were reluctant to show us the demo.

oh, I have no idea. I dont remember that, I thought you meant something else.

Bob:

Bob: so they were very skillful,

Steve:

Steve: yeah, but they did show us.

and its good they showed us because the technology crashed and burned at Xerox, they used to

call ...

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Bob:

Bob: Why?

Steve:

Steve: whats that?

Steve:

Steve: Why?

Bob:

Bob: Yeah, why?

Steve:

Steve: I actually thought a lot about that,

and I learned more about that with John Sculley later on and I think I understand that now pretty

well,

What happens is, like with John Sculley, err

John came from Pepsi co, and they almost would change their product once every 10 years,

to them, new product is like a new size of bottle,

so if you are a product person, you couldnt change the course of that company very much,

so who influences the success of Pepsi co?

The sales and marketing people, therefore they would once get promoted and therefore they would

once run the company,

well, for Pepsi co, that might have been okay.

IBM

But it turns out the same thing can happen in technology companies, that they get monopolies, like,

oh, IBM and Xerox.

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IBM

If you are a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copier or a better computer, so

what?

When you have a monopolies market share, the company is not any more successful,

so the people who can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people.

And they end up running the companies, and the product people get driven out of this decision

making forums.

And the companies forget what it means to make great products. It... sort of the product

sensibility,

and... the product genius brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people

running this companies who have no conception of a good product versus a bad product,

they have no conception of craftsmanship thats required, that take a good idea and turn it into

a good product,

and they really have no feeling in their hearts usually about wanting to really help the customers.

So thats what happens in Xerox,

the people in Xerox PARC used to call the people who runs the Xerox tonerheads,

and these tonerheads would come out to the Xerox and PARC says they have no clue of what they

are saying.

Bob:

Bob: For our audience, toner is what?

Steve:

Steve: Toner is what you put in a copier, you know the toner you add to an industrial copier?

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Bob:

Bob: The black stuff?

Steve:

Steve: The black stuff, yeah.

Basically they were copier heads, just have no clue about what a computer can do,

and so they just grabbed defeat from greatest victory in the computer industry,

10

Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry today, could have been company 10 times

its size,

90 IBM

could have been IBM, Could have been IBM in the 1990s, . could have been the Microsoft in

the 1990s. So ...

but anyway thats all ancient history, doesnt really matter anymore.

[28:22] David

Bob:

Bob: Sure.

IBMIBM PC

You mentioned IBM, when IBM entered the market, was that a daunting thing for you at apple?

10

Oh sure. I mean here was apple, you know a 1 billion dollar company,

IBM 300and here was IBM, at that time, probably about 30-some-odd-billion-dollar company entering the

market,

sure. it was very scary.

IBM

Err... we made a very big mistake though, that IBMs first product was terrible. It was really bad.

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9015

I asked him to design me a mouse in 90 days and we had a mouse that we can build for 15 bucks

and that was phenomenally reliable.

So I found that, in a way... Apple did not have the caliber of people that was necessary to seize

this idea in many ways.

There was a core team that did, but there was a larger team that mostly had come from HP that

didnt have a clue.

Bob:

Bob: It becomes this issue of professionalism, theres dark side and light side? isnt it?

Steve:

Steve: No, you know what it is... No, its not dark and light.

People get confused, companies get confused,

when they started getting bigger, they want to replicate their initial success,

and a lot of them think well somehow there are some magic in the process, of how success is

created...

so they started to try to institutionalize process across the company.

And before very long, people get very confused that the process is the content

IBMthats ultimately the downfall of IBM.

IBM

IBM has the best process people in the world, they just forgot about the content.

And thats so what happened a little bit at apple too, we had a lot of people who are great at

management process,

they just didnt have a clue as to the content,

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and in my career, I found that the best people you know are the ones who really understand the

content,

and they are pain in the butt to manage, you know but you put up with it because they are so great

at the content,

and thats what makes a great product, its not process, its content.

[31:50]

So we had a little bit of that problem at apple.

Lisa

And that problem eventually resulted in the Lisa,

Lisa

which had its moment of brilliance, in a way it was very far ahead at its time

but that was not enough fundamental content understanding. Apple drifted too far away from its

roots.

1

To these HP guys, 10,000 dollars was cheap,

to our market, to our distribution channels, 10,000 dollars was impossible.

Lisa

So, we produced the product which completely mismatch for the culture of our company,

for the image of our company, for the distribution channels of our company,

for the current customers. None of them could afford a product like that.

And it failed.

Bob: John Couch

Bob: Like you and John Couch fought for leadership?

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Steve:

Steve: Absolutely, and I lost. Thats correct.

Bob:

Bob: How did they come about?

Steve: Lisa

Steve: Well... I thought Lisa was in serious trouble,

and I thought Lisa was going off this very bad direction as I have just described,

and err... I couldnt convince enough people and the senior management of Apple,

but that was the case...we ran the places as team for most part.

So I lost, and at that point of time, you know I brooded for a few months

Apple II

but it was not very long after that it really occurred to me that if we didnt do something here, the

Apple II was running out of gas,

and we needed to do something with this technology fast, or else Apple might cease to exist as the

company that it was.

Macintosh

So I formed a small team to do the Macintosh,

and we were on a mission from God to save Apple.

No one else thought so, but it turned out we were right.

Mac

And as we evolved the Mac, it became very clear that, this was also a way of re-inventing Apple.

We re-invented everything, we re-invented manufactures,

80

I visited probably 80 automatic factories in Japan,

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and we built the worlds first automatic computer factory in the world, in California here,

6 8

so we adopted the 68,000 Micro Processors that Lisa had,

Lisa 1/5

we negotiated the price that was 1/5 of what Lisa was going to pay for, because we were using

much higher volume,

Macintosh

and we really started to design this product that can be sold for a thousand dollars, called the

Macintosh

2000

2500

,and we didnt make it. We could have sold it at 2000 dollars, but we came out 2,500,

4

and we spent 4 years in our lives doing that and we built the product,

we built the automatic factory, the machine to build the machine,

we built a completely new distribution system, and we built a completely different marketingapproach,

and I think we worked pretty well.

Bob:

Bob: Now, you motivated this team, I mean you have to guide them...

Steve:

Steve: We built the team.

Bob:

Bob: You built the team, motivated, guided them dealt with them.

Macintosh

We have interviewed just lots and lots of people from the Macintosh team,

and you know what keeps coming down to is your passion, and your vision,

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how do you order your priorities in there? Whats important to you in the development of a

product?

Steve:

Steve: You know... one of the things that really hurt Apple was after I left,

John Sculley

John Sculley got a very serious disease, and that disease, I have seen other people get it too,

its the disease of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work,

and if you just tell all these other people, here is this great idea!, then of course they can go off

and make it happen.

And the problem with that is that there is just tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a

great idea and a great product.

And as you evolve the great idea, it changes and grows, it never comes out like it starts.

Because you learn a lot more, you get into the subtleties,

you also find ... Theres tremendous trade-offs that you have to make,

I mean you know there are just certain things you cant make electrons do,

there are certain things you cant make plastic do, or glass do,

and... or factories do, robots do,

and you get into all these things, designing a product is keeping 5000 things in your brain.

These concepts, and fitting them all together in... and kind of continuing to push and fit them

together and in new and in different ways to get what you want.

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And everyday you discover something new that is new problem or new opportunity to fit these

things together a little differently.

Its that process that is the magic.

So we had a lot of great ideas when we started,

but what I always felt that a team of people doing something thats really believe in is like ...

When I was a young kid, there was a widowed man lived up the street.

80

And he was in his eighties, he was a little scary looking,

and I got to know him a little bit... I think he might pay me for cutting mow his lawn or

something

One day he said come along to my garage, I want to show you something.

And he pulled out his dusty old rock tumbler,

that was a motor and a coffee can and a little band between them,

and he said come out with me, we went out to the back, and we got some just rocks, some

regular old ugly rocks,

and we put them in the can with a little bit of liquid and a little bit of grits powder,

and we closed the can up and he turned this motor on, and he said, come back tomorrow.

And this can was making racket as the stones went around, and I came back the next day,

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and we opened the can, and we took out these amazingly beautiful polished rocks, err...

the same common stones had gone in through rubbing against each other like this,

creating a little bit of friction, creating a little bit of noise, had come out these beautiful polished

rocks.

And thats always been in my mind that, my metaphor for a team working really hard on

something they're passionate about.

It's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against

each other,

having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish

each other

and they polish the ideas, and what comes out are these really beautiful stones.

[39:07]

So its hard to explain, and its certainly not the result of one person,

I mean people like symbols, so I am the symbol of certain things

Mac

but its really the team effort on the Mac.

Now, in my life I observed something fairly early on at Apple,

which I didnt know how to explain it then, I felt a lot about since.

Most things in life, the dynamic range between average and the best, is at most 2 to 1,

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Like you are in New York city, you get an average Taxi cab driver versus the best Taxi cab driver,

30%

you know you would probably get to your destination with the best cab maybe 30% faster, you

know in automobile.

20%

Whats the difference between an average and the best? Maybe, I dont know 20%?

CD CD20%

the best CD player and an average CD player, I dont know, 20%?

2 to 1 is a big ..big dynamic range in most life.

In software, and it used to be the case with hardware too,

50 100

the difference between average and the best is 50 to 1, maybe a 100 to 1, Okay?

very few things in life are like this.

But what I was lucky enough to spend my life in, is like this,

and so I built lots of my success of finding these truly gifted people, and not settling for B and C

players, really going for A players.

And I found something, I found when you get enough A players together, when you go throughthe incredible work to find you know 5 of these A players,

they really like working with each other, because they never had a chance to do that before,

and they dont want to work with B and C players, so they become self-policing, they only want to

hire more A players.

So you built up these pockets of A players and it propagates,

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Mac

and thats what the Mac team was like, they were all A players, and these were extraordinarily

talented people.

Bob

Bob: But there were also people who now say that they dont have the energy any more to work

for you.

Steve:

Steve: Huh, sure.

Mac

I think if you talk to a lot of people on the Mac team, they would tell you it was the hardest they

have ever worked in their lives,

some of them would tell you it was their happiest they ever had in their lives,

but all of them would tell you that it certainly is one of the most intense and cherished experiences

they would ever have in their lives.

Bob:

Bob: Yeah, they did.

Steve:

Steve: So...err... you know, its a some of those things are not sustainable for some people.

Bob:

Bob: What does it mean when you tell someone their work is a shit?

Steve:

Steve: I it usually means their work is a shit,

sometimes it means I think your work is a shit, and I am wrong.

hehe, but .. it usually means that their work is not anywhere near good enough.

[42:25]

Bob: Bill Atkinson

Bob: I have this great quote from Bill Atkinson, who says when you say someones work is a shit,

you really mean.... I dont quite understand it, would you please explain it to me?

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Steve:

Steve: Haha, no, thats not usually what I meant.

I... you know, when you get really good people, they know they are really good, and you dont

have to baby peoples ego so much,

and what really matters is the work, that everybody knows that and that all that matters is the

work,

so people are being counted on to do specific pieces of little puzzle,

and the most important thing I think you can do for somebody whos really good, and whos really

being counted on is to point out to them when their work isnt good enough,

and to do it very clearly and to articulate why, and to get them back on track.

And you need to do it in a way that doesnt call into question your confidence in their abilities,

but... leaves not too much room for interpretation that the work they have done for the particular

thing is not good enough to support the goal of the team.

And thats a hard thing to do. Err... I always take a very direct approach,

so I think if you talk to people who worked with me, err... the really good people have found it

beneficial, some people hated it you know,

but I am also one of these people, I dont really care about being right, I just care about

success.

So you will find a lot of people that would tell you that I had a very strong opinion,

and they present evidence in contrary and 5 minutes later I can change my mind,

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because Im like that, I dont mind being wrong,

and I admit that I am wrong a lot, doesnt really matter to me too much.

What matters to me is that we do the right thing.

[Mac]

So how and why did Apple get into desktop publishing, which will become Macs killer-app?

Steve:

Steve: I dont know if you know this, but we got the first Canon laser printer engine shipped in US

at Apple,

Adobe Lisa

and we had it hooked up to a Lisa actually imaging pages before anybody, long before HP, long

before Adobe.

But I heard few times people tell me hey theres these guys over the garage in Xerox PARC...

lets go and see them

and I finally went and saw them, I saw what they were doing, and it was better than what we were

doing,

They were gonna be a hardware company they wanted to make printer and the whole thing,

Adobe

so I talked them into being a software company,

and within 2 or 3 weeks, we had cancelled our internal project,

a bunch of people wanted to kill me over this. But, we did it.

Adobe 19.9%

And I had cut a deal with Adobe to use their Software, and we bought 19.9% of Adobe at Apple,

they needed financing and we want a little bit control,

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we were off to the races so we got the engine from Canon, and we designed the first laser printer

controller at Apple,

Adobe

we got the software from Adobe, we introduced the laser writer.

Mac

No one at the company wanted to do it, but a few of us in the Mac group,

7000

everybody thought a 7000-dollar printer was crazy,

Apple Talk

what they didnt understand was that you can share it with Apple Talk,

I mean they understood intellectually, but they dont understand viscerally .

Lisa

because the last really expensive thing we tried to sell was Lisa.

so we pushed this thing through, and I had to basically do it through over a few dead bodies,

and we pushed this thing through and it was the first laser printer on the market as you know, and

the rest is history.

When I left Apple, Apple was the largest printer company, measure by revenue in the world.

It lost that distinction to HP about 3 or 4 years after I left, unfortunately, but when I left it was the

largest printer company in the world.

[46:35]

Bob:

Bob: Did you envision desktop publishing, was that a no-brainer?

Steve:

Steve: You know yes,

but we also envisioned really the networked office,

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1995

and so in January, 1995 when we had our annual meeting and introduced our new products, I

made probably the largest marketing blunder of my career,

Bob: 1985

Bob: 1985

Steve: 1985

Steve: 1985, sorry.

Macintosh Office

Made probably the largest marketing blunder in my career by announcing the Macintosh Office

instead of just desktop publishing,

and we had desktop publishing as a major component of that, but we announced a bunch of other

stuff as well, and I think we should just focus on desktop publishing at that time.

[1985 CEO John Sculley]

After series of disagreements with Apples CEO, John Sculley, Steve left the company in 1985.

Bob:

Bob: Tell us your departure from Apple.

Steve: Steve: Oh it was very painful and I am not even sure if I want to talk about it.

What can I say? I hired the wrong guy.

Bob: Sculley

Bob: That was Sculley?

Steve:

Steve: Yeah, and he destroyed everything I spent 10 years working for.

Starting with me, but that wasnt the saddest part,

I would have gladly left Apple if Apple had turned out like I wanted it to.

He basically got on a rocket ship that is about to leave the pad, and the rocket ship left the pad,

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and he kind of went into his head, and he got confused and thought he built the rocket ship,

and he kind of changed the trajectory, so that its inevitably gonna crash to the ground,

[48:36]

Bob: Macintosh

Bob: But there was always in Pre-Macintosh days and early Macintosh days, there was always

Steven and John show,

you two were kinda joined at the hip for a while there.

Steve:

Steve: Thats right.

Bob:

Bob: And then something happened to split you, what was that, what was that catalyst?

Steve: 1984 IT

Steve: Well, what happened was that the industry went into a recession in late 1984, sales

started seriously contracted,

John

and John didnt know what to do, and he had not a clue.

And there was a leadership vacuum at the top of Apple.

There were fairly strong general managers running the divisions,

MacintoshApple II and I was running the Macintosh division, somebody else was running the Apple II division etc,

there were some problems with some of the divisions, and there was a person running the storage

division that was completely out of lunch,

a bunch of things needed to be changed.

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But all those problems got put into a pressure cooker, because of this contraction in the market

place,

and there was no leadership,

John

and John was in a situation where the board was not happy, and where he was probably not long

for the company.

John

And one thing I did not ever see about John, until that time was, he had incredible survival

instinct,

someone once told me this guy didnt get to be the this you know president of Pepsi co without

these kind of instincts, and it was true.

John

And John decided that a really good person to be the root of all the problems would be me. And so

we came to loggerheads,

John

and John had cultivated a very close relationship with the board, and they believed him, so thatswhat happened.

Bob:

Bob: So there were competing visions for the company?

Steve: John

Steve: Oh clearly well... not so much competing visions for the company. Because I dont think

John had a vision for the company.

Bob:

Bob: Well, I guess Im asking was what was your vision at that time, lost out in instance?

Steve:

Steve: It wasnt an issue of vision, it was an issue of execution.

In a sense that my belief was that Apple needed much stronger leadership to sort of unite these

various factions that we created with divisions

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MacintoshApple II

that Macintosh was the future of Apple, that we needed to reinback expenses dramatically in the

Apple II area

Macintosh

that we needed to be spending very heavily in the Macintosh area, err... things like that.

JohnCEO

Johns vision was that he should remain the CEO of the company, and anything that would help

him do that would be acceptable.

1985

So you know I think that you know Apple is in a state of paralysis in the early part of 1985,

30

and I wasnt at that time capable... of running the company as a whole. You know I was 30 years

old

20

and I dont think I had enough experiences to run a 2 billion dollar company,

John

unfortunately John didnt either.

And so anyway I I was told in no uncertain terms that theres no job for me, its really tragic.

Bob:

Bob: Siberia.

[52:24]

Steve:

Steve: Yeah, It would have been far more smarter for Apple to sort of let me work on the next

I volunteered why not I start research division,

you know give me a few millions bucks a year and I would go hire some really great people and

we would do the next great thing.

And I was told there is no opportunity to do that.

Bob:

Bob: Oh well.

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what did they get for? I dont know!

But it was... what happened was the ...understanding of how to move these things forward, and

how to create these new products, somehow evaporated,

and I think a lot of good people stuck around for a while, but there wasnt an opportunity to get

together and do this,

because there wasnt any leadership to do that,

so what happens with Apple now is that they had fallen behind in many aspects certainly in

market share,

and most importantly their differentiation has been eroded by Microsoft,

and so what they have now is that they have their installed base, which is not growing, which is

shrinking slowly,

but would provide a good revenue stream for several years, but its a glide slope, its just gonna go

like this.

So its unfortunate and I dont really think its reversible at this point of time.

Bob:

Bob: Neither do I. What about Microsoft? I mean thats the juggernaut now, and its kind ofFord-LTD going into the future,

its definitely not Cadillac, its not BMW its just you know whats going on there, how did

these guys do that?

Steve: IBM

Steve: Microsoft's orbit was made possible by a Saturn 5 booster called IBM.

And I know Bill would get upset with me for saying this, but of course it was true.

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that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products.

And you say why is that important,

well, proportionally spaced fonts come from typesetting and beautiful books. That's where one

gets the idea.

Mac

If it werent for the Mac, they would have never had that in their products.

And, so I guess, I'm saddened not by Microsoft's success. I have no problem with their success.

They've earned their success, for the most part.

I have the problem with the fact that they just make really third-rate products.

Their products have no spirit to them. Their products have no... sort of spirit of enlightenment

about them. They are very pedestrian.

And the sad part is that most customers don't have a lot of that spirit either.

But the way we are going to ratchet it up... our species, is to take the best, and to spread it around

to everybody

so that everyone grows up with better things, and start to understand the subtleties of these betterthings.

And Microsoft is just... McDonalds. And that's what saddens me.

Not that Microsoft has won, but that Microsoft products don't displayed more insight and more

creativity.

Bob: NeXT

Bob: So what are you doing about it? Tell us about NeXT.

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Steve:

Steve: Well, I am not doing anything about it.

Bob: Ok

Bob: Ok.

Steve: NeXT

Steve: Because NeXT is too small a company to do anything about that, I am just watching it, and

theres really nothing I can do about it.

[ JobsNeXT]

Next we talked about NeXT, the company Steve was running in 1995, which Apple was soon to

buy.

[NeXT

Mac OS10

]NeXT software would become the heart of Mac in the form of OS10.

Steve: NeXT

Steve: You dont really want to hear about NeXT, do you?

Bob:

Bob: Yes, I do.

Steve:

Steve: You do? Okay,

NeXT

well... maybe the best things since we dont have much time, is I just tell you what NeXT is today

in the industry.

There hasnt been clearly the innovation of computer industry is happening in software right

now,

and there hasnt been a revolution in how we create software in a long... (sneeze)

20

Sorry. The innovation in the industry is in software, and there hasnt ever been a real revolution

how we created software, certainly not in the last 20 years .

[60:06]

As a matter of fact, its gotten worse.

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Macintosh

While the Macintosh was a revolution for the end users to make it easier to use, it was the opposite

for the developer,

the developer pays the price, and the software got more complicated to write, as it became easier

to use for the end user,

so software is infiltratingeverything we do these days, in businesses software is one of the most

important potent competitive weapons,

MCI AT&T

I mean the most successful business war was MCI friends and family in the last 10 years,

MCI

and what was that? It was a brilliant idea it was custom-billing software,

18AT&T

AT&T didnt respond for 18 months yielding millions of dollars for the market share to MCI,

AT&T

not because they are stupid, but because they couldnt get the billing software done.

So in ways like that, in smaller ways, software is becoming an incredible force in this world,

to provide new goods and services to people whether its over the Internet or what have you,

software is going to be a major enabler in our society.

PARC

We have taken another...one of those brilliant original ideas from Xerox PARC

1979that I saw in 1979, but didnt see really clearly then,

called object oriented technology,

NeXT

and we have perfected it and commercialized it, here and become the biggest supplier of it to the

market,

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and this object technology let you build software 10 times faster, and its better.

NeXT

So thats what we do, and we got a small to medium sized business, and were the largest supplier

of objects,

300 5000~7500

you know we were 50 to 75 million dollar company, got about 300 people, and thats what we do.

Bob:

Bob: And the end of the 3rd show, actually is one moment that we do look into the future, because

channel 4 has asked us to do that,

10

so whats your vision of 10 years from now, with this technology that you are developing?

Steve: web

Steve: You know I think the internet and the web

there are two exciting things happening in software and in computing,

web

one is objects, and the other is the web,

web

the web is incredibly exciting because it is the fulfillment a lot of our dreams,

that the computer would ultimately not be primarily a device for computation but metamorphosis

into a device for communication, and with the web thats finally happening,

Secondly its exciting because the Microsoft doesnt know it, and therefore its tremendousamount of innovation happening,

web

so I think the web is going to be profound in what it does to our society,

15%

as you know 15% of the goods and services in the US were sold by catalog over TV,

web

all that would go on the web and more, billions and billions

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soon tens of billions of dollars of goods and services are going to be sold on the web.

A way to think about it is ultimately direct-to-customer distribution channel,

and another way to think about it is the smallest company in the world can look as large as the

largest company in the world on the web,

so I guess... I think the web, as we look back 10 years back now,

web

the web is going to be the defining technology the defining social moment for computing,

I think its going to be huge and I think its breathed a whole new generation of life into personal

computing, I think its going to be huge.

Bob:

Bob: And you are making software that

Steve: Web IT

Steve: Of course, so is everybody, I mean forget about what we are doing, as an industry, the webis going to open a whole new door to this industry.

Bob: 5

Bob: Its another one of those things that its obvious once it happens, but 5 years ago, who would

have guessed?

Steve:

Steve: Thats right. Isnt this a wonderful place we live in.

[ Steve]I was keen to know about Steves passion,

[]

what drove him?

Steve:

Steve: I read an article when I was very young, in the Scientific American,

and it measures the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet,

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so for you know for bear, Chimpanzee, raccoons and birds, and fish,

how many kilocalories per kilometer did they spend to move, and humans was measured too,

the condor won, it was the most efficient,

and the mankind, the crown of creation, came in with rather unimpressive showing about a 3rd of

the way down the list,

but somebody there had the brilliance to test a human riding a bicycle,

blew away the condor, all the way off the charts,

and I remember this really had an impact on me,

I really remember this - humans were tool builders, and we build tools that can dramatically

amplify our innate human abilities.

[65:17]

to me, we actually ran an ad line like this very early at Apple, that the personal computer was the

bicycle of mind,

and I believe that with every bone in my body, that of all the inventions of humans,

the computer is going to rank near, if not at the top, as history unfolds if we look back, and it is the

most awesome tool that we ever invented,

and I feel incredibly lucky to be at exactly the right place in silicon valley, at exactly the right time,

historically where this invention has taken form.

As you know when you set vector off in space,

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if you can change direction a little bit at the beginning, its dramatic when it gets few miles on

space,

and I feel we are still really at the beginning of that vector, and if we can nudge it into right

directions, it would be a much better thing as it progresses on.

And I look, you know we had the chance to do that a few times, and it brings all of us associated

with tremendous satisfaction.

Bob:

Bob: And how do you know whats the right direction?

Steve:

Steve: You know ultimately it comes down to taste, it comes down to taste,

it comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done,

and try to bring these things in to what you are doing.

Picasso had a saying good artists copy, great artists steal,

we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas,

Macintosh

and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that people working on it were musicians

and poets and artists, and zoologists and historians,

Macintosh

who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world.

But if it hadnt been for computer science, these people would have all been doing amazing things

in other fields,

and they all brought with them, we all brought to this effort a very liberal arts sort of air,

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Macintosh

a very liberal arts attitude that we want to pull in the best that we saw in other fields into this field,

and I dont think youll get that if you are very narrow.

[]

One of the questions I asked everyone in the series was are you a hippie or a nerd?

Steve:

Steve: Oh if I had to pick one out of these two, I am clearly the hippie,

all the people I work with were clearly in that category too,

Bob:

Bob: Really?

Steve:

Steve: Yeah.

Bob:

Bob: Why? You seek out hippies? They are attracted to you?

Steve: Steve: Well, ask yourself whats hippie?

I mean this word has a lot of connotations, but to me,

60~70

remember the 60s happens in the early 70s, we have to remember that, thats sort when I came of

age, so I saw a lot of these,

and a lot of things happened in our backyard here.

So to me the spark of that was that

there was something beyond, sort of what you see everyday,

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there are something going on here in life beyond just a job, a family, 2 cars in the garage and a

career,

theres something more going on, theres another side of the coin,

that we dont talk about much

and we experience when there are gaps, when we kind of arent...

when everything is not ordered or perfect and when theres a kind of gap, you experience thisinrush of something,

and a lot of people have set off throughout history to find out what that was,

you know whether its Thoreau or the Indian mystics, whatever it might be,

and the hippie movement got a little bit like that, they want to find out what that was about,

and life wasnt about what they saw their parents doing,

and of course the pendulum swung too far the other way, that was too crazy.

but there was a germ of something there,

and its the same thing that causes people to want to be poets instead of bankers,

and I think thats a wonderful thing.

And I think that same spirit can be put into products

, and these products can be manufactured and given to people, they can sense that spirit,

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Macintosh

if you talk to the people who use the Macintosh, they love it,

you dont hear people loving products very often, you know, really,

Macintosh

but you can feel it in there, there were something really wonderful there,

So I dont think that most of those really best people that I had worked with, had worked with

computers for the sake of working with computers,

they work with computers because they are the medium that is best capable of transmitting somefeelings that you have,

you want to share with other people, does that make any sense to you?

Bob:

Bob: Oh yeah.

Steve:

Steve: And before they invented these things all of these people would have done other things,

but computers were invented and they did come along, all these people did get interested in school

or before school,

and say hey this is the medium that I think I can really say something in

[]

1996SteveNeXT

In 1996, a year after this interview, Steve Jobs sold NeXT to Apple.

He then took control of his old company at a time when it was 90 days from bankruptcy,

What followed was a corporate renaissance unparalleled in American business history,

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iMaciPodiTunesiPhoneiPadApple Store

with innovative products like iMac, iPod, iTunes, iPhone, iPad and Apple Stores, Jobs turned an

almost bankrupt Apple into the most valuable company in America.

As he said in this interview, he took the best and spread it around so that everybody grows up

with better things.

Steve Jobs 1955-2011