nolan31

8/4/2019 Nolan31

1/317

AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * **

In the Matter Between: ** April 7, 2010

CITY OF HARTFORD **

-and- ** Volume 3

IAFF, LOCAL 760 **

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

TERMINATION HEARING

HELD BEFORE:

HARVEY M. SHRAGE, Arbitrator

CHERYL S. DAMATO/COURT REPORTING SERVICECHERYL S. DAMATO, CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER

LICENSE NO. 00298300 TOLL GATE ROAD

BERLIN, CONNECTICUT 06037(860)828-8847

8/4/2019 Nolan31

2/317

2

APPEARANCES:

Representing the City of Hartford:

ATTORNEYS FOR THE CITY OF HARTFORD550 Main StreetHartford, Connecticut 06103BY: IVAN A. RAMOS, Corporation Counsel

Representing Daniel C. Nolan

FERGUSON & DOYLE, P.C.35 Marshall RoadRocky Hill, Connecticut 06067BY: JAMES C. FERGUSON, Esquire

ALSO PRESENT:

DEB COLLINS-CARABILLODAN NOLANVINCENT FUSCOSCOTT BRADYPETER TOWEY

CHERYL S. DAMATO/COURT REPORTING SERVICE

8/4/2019 Nolan31

3/317

3

. . . The following is the Arbitration in the

Matter between: AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION -and-

IAFF, LOCAL 760, held before HARVEY M. SHRAGE, Arbitrator,

and Cheryl S. Damato, Certified Court Reporter in and for

the State of Connecticut, held at the Sheraton Hotel, East

Hartford, Connecticut, at 8:56 a.m. on Wednesday, April 7,

2010.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

4/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

5/317

4

1 M I C H A E L P A R K E R ,

2 recalled as a witness by the Union, having been

3 previously duly sworn by the Arbitrator, was examined, and

4 testified further on his oath as follows:

5

6 THE ARBITRATOR: Good morning,

7 everyone. We're beginning day three of this matter

8 between the City of Hartford and IAFF Local 760, and

9 we are in the middle of the cross examination which

10 will continue here with Union's counsel.

11

12 CROSS EXAMINATION

13 CONTINUED BY MR. FERGUSON:

14 Q Good morning chief?

15 MR. RAMOS: We have sequestered the

16 witnesses.

17 THE ARBITRATOR: Off the record.

18 (Off-the-record discussion.)

19 BY MR. FERGUSON:

20 Q I am going to try not to go over ground I

21 already covered. Despite my best efforts.

22 THE ARBITRATOR: Let the record

23 reflect, and I appreciate the reminder, that there

24 was an agreement to sequester witnesses and at this

25 time all witnesses have been sequestered and we can

8/4/2019 Nolan31

6/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

7/317

5

1 continue.

2 BY MR. FERGUSON:

3 Q You stated in your testimony that there were

4 three complaints brought forth against Mr. Nolan.

5 A Yes.

6 Q And the first one came from the chief operating

7 officer of the City of Hartford?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And the second came from AC Milner?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And the third came from Local 760 President

12 Fusco, correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q And they were all basically within the same time

15 frame within days of each other?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Prior to those complaints, had you had any other

18 complaints concerning Deputy Chief Nolan?

19 A In regards to?

20 Q In regards to anything.

21 A I don't think so, no.

22 Q And refresh my recollection: You have been on

23 the department and in charge of personnel for how long?

24 A Thirteen-and-a-half years.

25 Q So for more than half of Dan Nolan's career, you

8/4/2019 Nolan31

8/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

9/317

6

1 know of no charges against him on any matter prior to the

2 three that were brought forth in that short time frame,

3 correct?

4 A You're going back to disciplines or --

5 Q Disciplines or any complaints.

6 A I am aware that he was disciplined. He was

7 suspended.

8 Q During your tenure?

9 A When I was there, yes.

10 Q For what?

11 A I believe he was suspended for a couple days

12 for -- it was under Chief Dobson's administration, and I

13 think it was removing a ladder, taking his ladder out of

14 service at a scene or disrespecting Assistant Chief Smith,

15 something to that effect.

16 Q Do you recall the time frame?

17 A I thought it was a two-day suspension.

18 Q The time frame of when it occurred?

19 A When it happened?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Prior to 2000.

22 Q Other than that, anything else?

23 A Not that I can recall, no.

24 Q And that was prior to him being promoted to his

25 position he held?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

10/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

11/317

7

1 A He was a line lieutenant, I believe, suppression

2 division at the time.

3 Q So it didn't in any way affect his career ladder

4 or his promotional --

5 A No.

6 Q Is it accurate to say that the complaint from

7 the chief operating officer was anonymous?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you inquire or attempt in any way to find

10 out where that complaint came from?

11 A Yes. I requested did he have any more

12 information. I was told no.

13 Q So it was an anonymous complaint?

14 A Yes.

15 Q In your experience in being in charge of

16 personnel and labor, is it common for you to investigate

17 anonymous complaints?

18 A Fifty percent of the time approximately.

19 Q And do they usually result in disciplinary

20 action: anonymous complaints?

21 A I am trying to recall. I would say most of the

22 time, no. The complaints are to follow up.

23 Q But in this case you followed it up?

24 A I was directed to.

25 Q You were directed to by whom?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

12/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

13/317

8

1 A Chief Teale, I believe.

2 Q With regard to the complaint from AC Milner,

3 that related to mileage?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And that was determined not to be sustainable,

6 correct?

7 A Yeah, I didn't find any serious problems.

8 Q So basically we're here today from the anonymous

9 charge of the chief operating officer of the city. What

10 was the nature of the complaint, of the anonymous

11 complaint from the chief operating officer?

12 A His complaint was that Chief Nolan was I believe

13 meeting with applicants prior to the interview with the

14 chief and myself for the hiring process and that he was

15 giving the applicants the questions that we were asking at

16 the interview.

17 Q And what was your determination with regard to

18 that anonymous complaint?

19 A We found nothing to substantiate it.

20 Q So it's fair to say the only complaint which

21 caused you to discipline or recommend the discipline of

22 Chief Nolan was the complaint from Local 760 President

23 Fusco?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And was that an anonymous complaint?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

14/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

15/317

9

1 A Yes.

2 Q Did you ever determine who the member or members

3 of the fire department were who made the complaints about

4 D.C. Nolan that were passed on to you from --

5 A No.

6 Q No. So we're here today because of an anonymous

7 complaint from a member or members of the department and

8 you have never determined who made those complaints?

9 A The anonymous complaint came from the president

10 of the union to me.

11 Q You're not answering my question. We're here

12 today because of an anonymous complaint from a member or

13 members of the department and you have never determined

14 who those members were?

15 A Yes, I have not.

16 Q Okay. You attempted to determine that?

17 A I asked President Fusco if I could have the name

18 and he declined.

19 Q And did you ask any -- withdrawn.

20 You also in your investigation spoke to members

21 of the class which Chief Nolan oversaw, correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Approximately 20 members?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Did you ask each and every one of those members

8/4/2019 Nolan31

16/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

17/317

10

1 or any of those members if they had filed a complaint

2 through President Fusco?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. So it's possible that none of the members

5 of the class ever complained about Chief Nolan?

6 A It's possible.

7 Q All right. But you didn't even attempt to try

8 to find out if they were the complainants?

9 A Not through them, no. Through the president of

10 the union.

11 Q Did Assistant Chief Milner when he reported the

12 complaint or the concern regarding the mileage of

13 D.C. Nolan, did he indicate how he came upon or about

14 making that complaint?

15 A Yes. He informed me that there was a Garmin in

16 Chief Nolan's car and I believe Superintendent Smith who

17 is in charge of the maintenance division checked it or was

18 doing something with it and came up with New York Airport,

19 Airport of New York and I think Boston on it.

20 Q Is it common for members of the department or

21 the supervisors of the department to check on Garmins or

22 GPSs in personnel cars?

23 A It's the first time I know of.

24 Q And does everybody have one?

25 A I believe -- I know there's probably three or

8/4/2019 Nolan31

18/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

19/317

11

1 four out there in the chief's cars.

2 Q Are they supplied by the city?

3 A Mine is. The fire marshal's is.

4 Q What about Chief Nolan's?

5 A I am not sure.

6 Q So do you think it's appropriate for somebody to

7 go into what might be a personal GPS in somebody's car?

8 A If it's inside the city vehicle. If it was

9 checked, if it was on. I don't have the facts on that.

10 Q Is it proper for somebody to go into a city car

11 and go through checkbooks, mail or anything else that

12 might be in the car that's personal in nature?

13 A No.

14 Q How do you differentiate between the two?

15 A I don't know if that's a city Garmin, city

16 property or not.

17 Q But you went ahead and what might not have been

18 city property and investigated it anyway, correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q With regard to the Milner investigation, are you

21 aware that the superintendent actually reported the

22 investigation concerning the Garmin about five months

23 prior to his complaint, Milner's complaint to you?

24 MR. RAMOS: I am going to object at

25 this point. This is not the subject of the

8/4/2019 Nolan31

20/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

21/317

12

1 discipline that's at issue here. We didn't sustain

2 any of those allegations so they're not really --

3 THE ARBITRATOR: Well, let me hear the

4 Union on it. I think I know where they're going on

5 it.

6 Go ahead.

7 MR. FERGUSON: Basically there are a

8 number of charges against him anonymous in nature.

9 Two of the three have been determined not to be

10 effective. We're claiming disparate treatment.

11 We're claiming he's being treated differently than

12 anybody else. There's no action that that has been

13 done to anybody before.

14 THE ARBITRATOR: I'll allow it. The

15 question of how it plays out and the weight of it,

16 but in terms of the argument the Union wants to make

17 here I think is within the realm.

18 Go ahead.

19 BY MR. FERGUSON:

20 Q Are you aware of that, that it was five months?

21 A No.

22 Q Would that be appropriate for somebody whether

23 it's a chief, officers or anybody else to hold information

24 and then make a complaint contemporaneous with other

25 complaints about somebody's action or inactions?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

22/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

23/317

13

1 A I would like to have had it sooner.

2 Q Does a complaint ever get stale?

3 A No, I wouldn't say so, unless someone finds out

4 about it. If it's brought to my attention.

5 Q Well, you're aware that D.C. Nolan had been on

6 administrative leave for over three months by the time

7 A.C. Milner filed his fire service, correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And so it was post the administrative leave

10 determination that it came to light. You agree with that,

11 correct?

12 A Yes, it was brought to my attention, correct.

13 Q And what about the other two complaints? Were

14 those post his administrative leave?

15 A I don't believe so. I don't recall exactly the

16 time that I received it.

17 Q But they could have been?

18 A No. I think I received -- no, it was before

19 administrative leave. I interviewed him when he was still

20 working there, I believe.

21 Q So he was put on administrative leave pending an

22 investigation for what actions exactly?

23 A He was placed on administrative leave by the

24 chief.

25 Q For what actions?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

24/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

25/317

14

1 A While we were looking into the allegations

2 against him.

3 Q Which ones? It couldn't have been A.C. Milner.

4 You just testified that happened post administrative

5 leave.

6 A It was done after we received a complaint from

7 the chief operating officer. That's what initiated it and

8 same time I received the Union complaint.

9 Q So you received two of the three complaints

10 contemporaneous and then later you got the AC Milner

11 mileage complaint?

12 A They all came out the same time. I believe A.C.

13 Milner was the last one in writing. He made a verbal

14 complaint.

15 Q Well if A.C. Milner's complaint, if his fire

16 service was actually three months after he was on

17 administrative leave, wouldn't that make the other two, if

18 they were all contemporaneously because that was your

19 testimony previously?

20 A Yeah. I just don't recall the exact times these

21 things unfolded.

22 Q Did you find it unusual in any way that the

23 three different complaints about D.C. Nolan were just

24 prior to the new recruit class starting?

25 A No, I didn't put any relationship with it.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

26/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

27/317

15

1 Q Prior to this incident, had you ever received

2 any complaints about D.C. Nolan concerning his running of

3 the training division or the training school?

4 A No, no formal complaints.

5 Q Can you recall any other time when you received

6 three nearly simultaneous albeit differently-based

7 complaints about one fire official?

8 A No, never recall that.

9 Q And you didn't find that unusual?

10 A Oh, yes, I did.

11 Q And you don't find it ironic in any way that

12 these complaints were received just prior to him training

13 a new recruit class?

14 A I didn't put that together at all. I just

15 thought it was ironic they had all three complaints coming

16 in.

17 Q Now, you made some -- you testified concerning

18 the issue of Play Stations. Do you recall that testimony?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And you stated in your direct that you asked

21 D.C. Nolan specific questions about the allegations

22 against him, correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q There were eight questions that you gave to him.

25 There were eight questions that you posited to him?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

28/317

8/4/2019 Nolan31

29/317

16

1 A I had written questions.

2 Q There were eight?

3 A If that's what there were.

4 Q Do you remember?

5 A I don't have them in front of me, no.

6 Q And I believe Attorney Ramos asked you if you

7 recalled exactly how you phrased the questions to

8 D.C. Nolan in regards to the Sony Play Stations?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And you replied that you asked if he requested

11 from recruits in training to donate Sony Play Stations in

12 return for reduced hours to be run?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. And what was his answer to that?

15 A He said no.

16 Q Okay. And that question was posited based on

17 what information that you had that was the predicate for

18 those questions or that question?

19 A The Union's complaint.

20 Q The Union's complaint. So the Union actually

21 told you that he was soliciting Play Stations from --

22 A It's in writing.

23 Q And was that confirmed by testimony or

24 statements from any of the 20 members of the class?

25 A Yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

30/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

31/317

17

1 Q And who? Who exactly confirmed that? Who in

2 the class confirmed that?

3 A That Play Stations were requested?

4 Q Uh-huh.

5 A Quite a few.

6 Q Who?

7 A I don't have them in my notes but I would say --

8 Q What do you mean you don't have them in your

9 notes?

10 A I don't have my notes with me but I believe it

11 was Shapiro that bought them.

12 Q Ashley Shapiro?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And did he confirm that information when you

15 talked to him?

16 A Yes.

17 Q So it's your testimony here under oath that

18 Ashley Shapiro told you that Chief Nolan asked him and

19 other members of the class to purchase Play Stations?

20 A He was asked to purchase Play Stations, tickets

21 -- Play Stations.

22 Q No, no, we're just dealing with -- just Play

23 Stations.

24 A Play Stations. He was asked -- I don't have the

25 exact question in front of me. I am going from memory but

8/4/2019 Nolan31

32/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

33/317

18

1 he was asked if Play Stations were purchased before he

2 reduced towers and he said yes.

3 Q And did he say that he specifically was

4 requested?

5 A I believe so, yes.

6 Q So if Ashley Shapiro said that wasn't true, then

7 he'd be changing his testimony or statement?

8 A I had quite a few other guys that mentioned it.

9 Q We're dealing with Ashley Shapiro. So if he

10 said that didn't happen, then he would be changing his

11 statement to you?


13 Q And the fact that he stated to you that Chief

14 Nolan asked him directly to purchase Play Stations is

15 reflected in your notes?

16 A No, I don't have anything that says directly he

17 was asked by Chief Nolan.

18 Q Okay. So is it fair to say your notes aren't

19 complete?

20 A My notes are what they are. They're the facts

21 that were given to me.

22 Q The facts were given to you according to your

23 testimony here today that Ashley Shapiro was asked by

24 Chief Nolan?

25 A I don't think I said that. I said he was asked

8/4/2019 Nolan31

34/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

35/317

19

1 to purchase a Play Station. I don't think I said he was

2 asked directly by Chief Nolan. I am not sure that was

3 even in my question.

4 Q Well, who was he asked by if it wasn't Chief

5 Nolan?

6 A I am not sure. If I had my notes I could tell

7 you exactly what the question was.

8 Q I am not concerned with the question. I am

9 trying to ascertain -- he's been terminated and partly

10 because the allegation is --

11 A Most of the guys.

12 Q We're asking about Ashley Shapiro.

13 A To the best of my knowledge I believe the squad

14 leaders asked for the donations.

15 Q And who were the squad leaders again?

16 A I can't remember their names.

17 Q But you talked to the squad leaders, correct?

18 A They were part of the investigation, yes.

19 Q And you can't remember who they were?

20 A No.

21 Q And when Mr. Ramos asked you what did D.C. Nolan

22 say with respect to Sony Play Stations, you stated that

23 D.C. Nolan said he never requested Sony Play Stations; is

24 that correct?

25 A I believe so, that's correct.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

36/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

37/317

20

1 Q And as you sit here today you cannot tell me or

2 name one person in that class or anybody else that you

3 investigated who directly stated that D.C. Nolan requested

4 Play Stations, is that correct?

5 A I am trying to recall the testimony. I can't

6 recall if that was directly asked. I know they said they

7 felt intimidated.

8 Q I am not asking you about that. I am asking you

9 a specific question about a specific incident.

10 A I can't recall.

11 Q Okay. Can you recall -- we talked about

12 Ashley Shapiro. Can you recall any of the other 19 who

13 directly stated that Chief Nolan asked him or her to

14 purchase a Play Station?

15 A No.

16 Q You also stated that D.C. Nolan -- you

17 investigated whether he requested members of the class to

18 purchase training tickets -- pardon me, raffle tickets in

19 exchange for reduced hours, correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Now, who of the 20 people that you investigated,

22 or not investigated but spoke to as part of your

23 investigation, specifically said that Chief Nolan

24 requested that they purchase raffle tickets in exchange

25 for reduced towers?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

38/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

39/317

21

1 A I don't recall their names.

2 Q Do you recall if their names are explicitly a

3 part of the report that you did or the investigatory notes

4 that you made prior to making your recommendation?

5 A What was the first part of that?

6 Q Do you recall if your notes reflect who of the

7 20?

8 A Yes.

9 Q You do?

10 A Yes.

11 Q They do, okay.

12 A Squad leaders. Mentioned that they were in the

13 squad when they were being asked to get donations.

14 Q I am not talking about donations. I am talking

15 about raffle tickets right now. We're being more

16 specific.

17 A Okay.

18 Q Do you recall if they ever specifically were

19 asked by D.C. Nolan?

20 A I believe it was the squad leaders.

21 Q He asked the squad leaders specifically?

22 A To the best of my recollection, I believe it was

23 the squad leaders when he had his meetings at the end of

24 the day.

25 Q And your notes will reflect who those people

8/4/2019 Nolan31

40/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

41/317

22

1 were?

2 A I think some of the squad leaders were

3 designated in my notes, yes.

4 Q Okay.

5 A I think McCue was one, Stevenson was, Marvin

6 Stevenson was. I don't know what they call them battalion

7 leader.

8 Q So McCue and Stevenson?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Anybody else?

11 A Those six squad leaders, I believe. I don't

12 have their names.

13 Q And you would suspect since he stated that if

14 you were claiming under oath, he would state that that was

15 accurate?

16 A That's what it says in my notes, yes.

17 Q Other than the raffle tickets and the Play

18 Stations, were there any other specific items requested by

19 D.C. Nolan according to your investigation?

20 A I believe money was involved. A salsa lesson

21 was donated. A T-shirt was donated. Recruits were asked

22 to go to businesses to solicit donations.

23 Q Let's take them one at a time. Who specifically

24 stated that Chief Nolan solicited money from the recruits?

25 A Squad leaders through their meetings.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

42/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

43/317

23

1 Q Which squad leaders?

2 A I don't have their names.

3 Q Are they reflected in your notes?

4 A I believe so. If I had my notes I could tell

5 you.

6 Q What about the salsa lesson? Was it more than

7 one?

8 A I believe there was one salsa lesson.

9 Q And who specifically indicated to you?

10 A I can't recall his name.

11 Q What about the T-shirt?

12 A Can't recall his name. Something like a $20

13 T-shirt was donated. Family members donated money.

14 Q We're on the T-shirts now.

15 A T-shirt, okay.

16 Q And you say that Deputy Chief Nolan or Training

17 Chief Nolan directed members of the class to solicit

18 donations from businesses?

19 A Through the squad leaders, yes.

20 Q Let's talk about soliciting businesses. You

21 testified that was a concern, I believe, because it would

22 reflect negatively on the department to have a member of

23 the department going out into the community to solicit

24 business.

25 A Yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

44/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

45/317

24

1 Q So is it fair to say that as the person

2 responsible for discipline, that that is verboten; that

3 that is not allowed in the department to do that kind of

4 thing?

5 A To walk into a business and solicit money?

6 Q Yes.

7 A We frown on it.

8 Q Did you ever discipline anybody else because

9 they did that?

10 A Not that I recall.

11 Q Are you aware that that is an ongoing

12 proposition as we speak?

13 A To solicit businesses?

14 Q Yes.

15 A No.

16 Q And has there ever been an SOP or directive from

17 you, Chief Teale or any other leader of the department

18 indicating that was not allowed?

19 A I am not familiar with one.

20 Q So even though you frown on it, you have never

21 made it an official policy of the department to prohibit

22 such activity?

23 A I don't believe so.

24 Q Isn't it true that you're aware that every year

25 members of the department pass the boot for MS?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

46/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

47/317

25

1 A Yes.

2 Q And you have never directed members of the

3 department not to take part in that activity?

4 A Correct.

5 Q And that members of the department as part of

6 that activity, go to businesses soliciting money?

7 A I am not aware of that.

8 Q Not at all?

9 A Not going to businesses. We stand out in the

10 street and receive the money.

11 Q So it's okay to do it directly from the public

12 but not to do it from businesses who might have deeper

13 pockets?

14 A For muscular dystrophy, it's for causes.

15 Q What about the recent activity in writing from

16 members of the department soliciting money for Haiti? Are

17 you aware of that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And that's also allowed or countenance in the

20 department?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Was it in writing?


24 Q Was there a directive that that was an exception

25 that was unpublished?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

48/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

49/317

26


2 Q That the rules of the department to --

3 A We frown on it. Something for Haiti or national

4 cause.

5 THE ARBITRATOR: I didn't get the last

6 one.

7 A Or national cause.

8 THE ARBITRATOR: You do allow it?

9 A Yeah, we do.

10 BY MR. FERGUSON:

11 Q So you make a determination, don't publish it,

12 that certain causes are okay and yet are disciplining a,

13 quite frankly, terminating a 20-year member of the

14 department with no -- with one previous discipline when he

15 was a line lieutenant for engaging in basically the same

16 activity?

17 A They were soliciting money to have reduced

18 towers. That would be an added on. It's a little

19 difference there.

20 Q What's the difference? It's a charitable

21 contribution.

22 A They felt intimidated. They felt this

23 individual had control of their career.

24 Q Okay. So it's not the activity of charitable

25 contribution you object to. It's about the person who

8/4/2019 Nolan31

50/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

51/317

27

1 asked it and his relation with the people involved,

2 correct?

3 A We do not authorize individuals on the fire

4 department to go on, without our knowledge to go in to

5 businesses representing the fire department for donations.

6 Q At all?

7 A We don't. Without our knowledge we don't allow

8 that.

9 Q So let's take Haiti because that's the most

10 recent. With regard to Haiti, somebody was in charge of

11 doing that. Do you know who did that on behalf of the

12 department?

13 A I can't recall. The city did it also.

14 Q And you approved of that?

15 A Yes, I approved of that.

16 Q Somebody came to you ahead of time and said it's

17 okay to do that and you're allowed to do that, to solicit?

18 A No one came to me, no.

19 Q Okay. On direct you were asked about the drill

20 tower, correct, and running towers?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And you were asked during your testimony to

23 describe the inside of the drill tower at the fire

24 academy. Do you recall that testimony?

25 A Yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

52/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

53/317

28

1 Q You stated that it had metal stairs going up,

2 that it had no windows and it was six stories high?

3 A No windows. It had openings.

4 Q So it does have --

5 A Well, it does have openings.

6 Q And it's metal stairs?


8 Q You believe or are you sure?

9 A I haven't been down there in years but I believe

10 it's metal stairs.

11 Q So it wouldn't surprise you if that's incorrect

12 and it's actually concrete stairs?

13 A No, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been years

14 since I have been in there.

15 Q I show you this picture and ask you if you can

16 recognize it?

17 A Yes.

18 Q What is that?

19 A That's where they -- that's the tower where they

20 ran their stairs, they ran their punishment towers, I

21 guess, at the training facility.

22 Q And it's not six stories high, it's five,

23 correct?

24 A Six stories high, one, two, three, four, five,

25 six.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

54/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

55/317

29

1 Q You're counting the roof?

2 A One, two, three, four, five, six.

3 MR. FERGUSON: Okay. I'd like to

4 offer that?

5 MR. RAMOS: No objection.

6 THE ARBITRATOR: Union 1 is received.

7 (Union Exhibit 1: Received in

8 evidence - described in index.)

9 MR. RAMOS: It's a good picture.

10 Looks different, though.

11 THE ARBITRATOR: Hold on a second. We

12 all need to have the same one.

13 (Off-the-record discussion.)

14 THE ARBITRATOR: Union Exhibit 1 has

15 been received. There was a bit of confusion as to

16 different versions of it that were inadvertently

17 circulated. Union 1 is the official -- Union 1 does

18 not show the stairs right in front of you as you look

19 at the picture. It shows the stairs, just a slight

20 bit of the stairs to the side and that will be the

21 official copy.

22 I am giving it back to the Union's

23 counsel who will make additional copies at this

24 point.

25 BY MR. FERGUSON:

8/4/2019 Nolan31

56/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

57/317

30

1 Q I am going to show you the stairs. Do you

2 recognize those stairs?

3 A It looks like the ones in the training tower.

4 MR. FERGUSON: I'd like to offer that.

5 THE ARBITRATOR: Union 2 is marked and

6 received, which is the stairs which is identified as

7 the stairs and tower and that's being returned to

8 Union counsel as well to make additional copies.

9 (Union Exhibit 2: Received in


11 BY MR. FERGUSON:

12 Q With regard to your questioning of the members

13 of the class, did they tell you that they had to run six

14 stories each time?

15 A No, I don't recall that.

16 Q Did they tell you they ran all the way to the

17 roof every time?

18 A No, I don't recall that either.

19 Q There was significant testimony from you

20 concerning your concern that the running of towers in the

21 case of that class was excessive, correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Okay. Did any member of the class indicate to

24 you the number of towers that were actually run on a daily

25 basis by members of the department?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

58/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

59/317

31

1 A I believe some of the probation firefighters

2 mentioned they were doing like 20 a day or something to

3 that effect.

4 Q Do you recall which said that they were running

5 20 a day?

6 A No, I don't.

7 Q Do you recall some saying they didn't run 20 a

8 day?

9 A I am sure some said that.

10 Q But your testimony is that some unnamed -- I

11 don't want to use the word witnesses -- firefighters that

12 you questioned said they ran 20 towers a day?

13 A According to my notes.

14 Q According to your notes. And did they say how

15 many times they ran 20 towers a day?


17 Q Do you recall how many you said ran 20 towers a

18 day?


20 Q You can't recall even one?

21 A It's in my notes.

22 Q Is the objection the number of towers they ran a

23 day or the fact that he gave multiple towers as

24 discipline?

25 A The objection?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

60/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

61/317

32

1 Q Well, the objection: the thing that you find

2 warrants termination. Is it because they had to actually

3 run 20 towers a day?

4 A What warrants termination is firefighters that

5 felt intimidated by soliciting and donating and in return

6 they get reduced towers where they felt towers were being

7 added on just to increase donations. And we had, out of

8 20, 19 people in the class, one cadet. We had a vast

9 majority say there were donations. Some of them felt

10 intimidated and Chief Nolan denied all of them.

11 Q Okay. So is there anything other than the fact

12 that Chief Nolan denied it and the fact that members came

13 to you and complained that or in your investigation

14 determined they were intimidated, is that the sole reason

15 he's being terminated, those two things: the fact that

16 members were apparently intimidated because they had to

17 buy raffle tickets or they were requested to buy, not had

18 to but were requested to buy raffle tickets, and the fact

19 that when you talked to Chief Nolan he denied that. Is

20 that the reason? Is there anything else?

21 A I wasn't part of the hearing that terminated

22 Chief Nolan. I do the preliminary hearing to present the

23 facts.

24 Q I am asking you based on the facts you elicited,

25 was there any other -- Objection?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

62/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

63/317

33

1 MR. RAMOS: Finish.

2 BY MR. FERGUSON:

3 Q Was there anything other than what you just

4 stated that caused you in your investigation to recommend

5 to the chief the action that ultimately took place

6 regarding --

7 A I didn't recommend anything. I gave the chief

8 the facts of what my investigation showed.

9 Q Well, in your opinion as somebody who does

10 discipline, is effectively in charge of discipline, what

11 actually did you find that was in violation of department

12 rules and regulations albeit not written, that caused you

13 to determine that there was some actions that were wrong

14 that were conducted by Chief Nolan?

15 A In my opinion?

16 Q Yeah.

17 A Oh, okay. Abuse of power, having them again go

18 out for soliciting money, et cetera.

19 Q And what else?

20 A I have 20 people come in front of me saying,

21 most of them, the majority saying this went on. Chief

22 Nolan denied it except for maybe -- let me correct.

23 Except for the running of the tower at -- I can't think of

24 the -- he did say that -- I can't think of the name of it

25 right now. It just slipped my mind. Anyway, there was

8/4/2019 Nolan31

64/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

65/317

34

1 one that Chief Nolan said.

2 Q The Big Climb?

3 A Yes.

4 Q He admitted the Big Climb?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Was it okay for him to engage them in donations

7 for the Big Climb? Is that okay?

8 A If it was just for the Big Climb in my opinion,

9 yes.

10 Q And the other was the Lea Foundation?

11 A The Lea Foundation was another one.

12 Q Was that okay?

13 A It's okay to a point where it wasn't being used

14 to reduce towers, put towers back on.

15 Q Okay. So the Big Climb was okay. The Lea

16 Foundation was okay?

17 A In my opinion, yes, the Big Climb was okay.

18 Q So what exactly -- what exact charitable

19 donations that were sought by Chief Nolan to the extent

20 that that's true, was not okay?

21 A From what I investigated?

22 Q Yeah.

23 A He asked for money. No routes were given. He

24 asked for any donations.

25 Q For what?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

66/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

67/317

35

1 A Tickets to be purchased. He had family members.

2 He had recruits going to their families to get donations.

3 Q I understand the allegation. I am asking what

4 events or what charitable donations were not okay?

5 A Most of them didn't even know what they were

6 donating to.

7 Q Is it your claim that Chief Nolan enriched

8 himself in any way as a result of these donations?

9 A No.

10 Q Going back to the 20 towers a day, did they say,

11 the ones that supposedly said 20 towers a day, did they

12 say how many times they ran 20 towers a day?

13 A I don't recall.

14 Q Did you ask?

15 A How many times a day, I am not sure.

16 Q How many days? They were there for 14 weeks, 14

17 times 5?

18 A The general consensus was they were running

19 towers almost every day.

20 Q Twenty towers a day?

21 A Approximately, from my memory.

22 Q If there were no donations involved for

23 allegedly reducing towers, would 20 towers a day be cause

24 to terminate somebody?

25 A Depends what the towers were given for. No.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

68/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

69/317

36

1 Q No, it wouldn't be cause for termination if

2 there was no quid pro quo in your estimation?

3 A Not to me, no.

4 Q So you don't object to the number of towers.

5 You object to the fact that in your words they were,

6 members were intimidated to get reduced towers by making

7 donations; correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And that constitutes abuse of power?

10 A The abuse of power was the intimidation where

11 donations would reduce towers. The towers were given just

12 to a higher number. Some more donations were being

13 brought in to reduce towers and at the end they thought

14 that Chief Nolan had their career in his hands.

15 Q Isn't that true for every training chief; that

16 the careers are in the hands of the training chief and the

17 training department with regard to their activities during

18 the 14 weeks; isn't that true? They're probationary

19 employees, right?

20 A Right, they're probationary. They can recommend

21 hiring or dismissal.

22 Q Right. As a matter of fact, Chief Nolan, during

23 that class, did recommend dismissal of a number of

24 firefighters: three?

25 A I believe he did, yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

70/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

71/317

37

1 Q As a matter of fact you personally came to the

2 training division to investigate his recommendations,

3 correct?

4 A I have done that a few times.

5 Q And in fact you did recommend that at least one,

6 if not two members of that training class be dismissed for

7 not performing up to the standards of the department on

8 the recommendation of Chief Nolan, correct?

9 A That sounds accurate.

10 Q With regard to the raffle tickets, you said that

11 approximately half of the class stated in their statements

12 to you that Chief Nolan, through the squad leaders,

13 recommended that they purchased raffle tickets and if they

14 did they would be reduced towers, correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q So half of them said that wasn't true?

17 A I don't know. I am going at least half, maybe

18 more.

19 Q Well, you previously testified?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Half, okay. So it's safe to say half of them

22 denied that too, correct, or a little less than half?

23 A I am not sure that's the right number.

24 Q I am just going by what you said.

25 A The majority of the class knew about raffle

8/4/2019 Nolan31

72/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

73/317

38

1 tickets as a total, knew about raffle tickets, knew about

2 donations.

3 Q Okay. Just answer the questions. Your counsel

4 will have a chance to ask you all the questions he wants

5 after I am done.

6 There was also some testimony on direct

7 concerning Wiis. Do you recall that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And what was your testimony, if you can restate

10 it here, concerning Wiis?

11 A A Wii was supposed to be purchased for Captain

12 Costello, I believe, which the money was reimbursed back

13 to I think it was Shapiro.

14 Q And is that also -- was that to reduce towers?

15 Was that also to reduce towers?

16 A I was given that impression, yes.

17 Q Were you given that impression or was it stated

18 by Mr. Shapiro?

19 A I believe it was to reduce towers. It was all

20 part of the system, the ongoing problem.

21 Q That wasn't a donation. That was something that

22 one of the members of the training division was looking --

23 A It wasn't a donation because I believe the

24 firefighter was reimbursed.

25 Q Is that one of the reasons he's being

8/4/2019 Nolan31

74/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

75/317

39

1 terminated? That he sought on one of the members of the

2 department --

3 A Again, it was taken as part of the whole

4 donation thing for reduced towers.

5 Q When you spoke to D.C. Nolan, did you ever ask

6 him about the Wiis, the Wii incident? Was that ever one

7 of your questions to Chief Nolan?


9 Q So he never had an opportunity to explain that?

10 A I grouped that in with the Play Stations.

11 Q Even though the Play Stations were for charity

12 and the Wii was for --

13 A Just electronic games, Wii or Play Stations. I

14 used them both.

15 Q There's no evidence on the record from your

16 investigation that anybody was directed by Chief Nolan to

17 purchase a Wii or chair for charitable donation?

18 A Anything on the record? The recruits were -- I

19 was told the recruits were told to get a Wii or electronic

20 game for Captain Costello for his wife so she could give

21 it to him.

22 Q And that was at the Laudermill hearing, correct?

23 A I wasn't at the hearing.

24 Q You weren't at the hearing?

25 A No.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

76/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

77/317

40

1 Q So when did you learn about the Costello's Wii

2 situation?

3 A From one of the recruits.

4 Q That was Ashley Shapiro?

5 A I am not sure it was Ashley Shapiro. A couple

6 of them.

7 Q You testified previously that it was

8 Ashley Shapiro.

9 A I believe he's the one, to the best of my

10 recollection, that purchased the electronic games.

11 Q Did he tell you that?

12 A I believe he did, to the best of my

13 recollection.

14 Q Okay. And other people mention that he did?

15 A Yes.

16 Q But did anybody tell you that it was at the

17 direction of D.C. Nolan directly?

18 A Directly. I am not sure. I believe it came

19 through squad leader meetings.

20 Q And you don't even know as you sit here today

21 whether it was D.C. Nolan who directed them through the

22 squad leaders to find a Wii for Captain Costello?

23 A Squad leaders. I can't recall that.

24 Q And you do recall that you never questioned

25 D.C. Nolan in your investigation, in your discussion with

8/4/2019 Nolan31

78/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

79/317

41

1 him at the start of the investigation about the Wiis?

2 A I believe that's accurate.

3 Q Okay. Your question No. 3 of your questions,

4 did D.C. Nolan tell you in the class that if you

5 participate in the Big Climb on your own time, the towers

6 would be reduced, correct?

7 A I guess.

8 Q And 7 of them said yes and 13 said no?

9 A That's correct.

10 THE ARBITRATOR: What you're referring

11 to there is something in evidence?

12 MR. FERGUSON: He created a chart. I

13 don't know if it's in.

14 THE ARBITRATOR: This is what I was

15 referring to earlier. It was marked for

16 identification as City 2, is that consistent?

17 MR. RAMOS: That's correct.

18 THE ARBITRATOR: But I don't have a

19 copy of that. I take it I didn't receive that. I'd

20 have to go back in the transcript.

21 MR. FERGUSON: It's City Exhibit 2.

22 MR. RAMOS: Well, Jim doesn't want it

23 in. I want it in.

24 MR. FERGUSON: I am asking questions

25 about it.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

80/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

81/317

42

1 THE ARBITRATOR: Are you agreeing to

2 it coming in now?

3 MR. FERGUSON: Yes.

4 THE ARBITRATOR: City Exhibit 2 is now

5 received, and if the arbitrator can get a copy of it.

6 MR. RAMOS: Okay.

7 MR. FERGUSON: What I am referring to

8 is the second to last page.

9 THE ARBITRATOR: Let the record

10 reflect the question counsel for the Union referred

11 to that --

12 Why don't we just take a three-minute

13 break here and everyone can stretch their legs.

14 (City Exhibit 2: Received in


16 (A recess was taken at 9:48 a.m. and

17 the hearing resumed at 9:55 a.m.)

18 THE ARBITRATOR: If we could just go

19 back to that last exhibit we were just referring to

20 now received as City 2 and, Mr. Ferguson, you made

21 reference to.

22 MR. FERGUSON: Yeah, on the second to

23 last page, there's responses from the -- my question

24 was predicated upon the second to last page which is

25 a chart of the answers of the people concerning the

8/4/2019 Nolan31

82/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

83/317

43

1 various questions which are on the preceding pages

2 that were asked of the members of the department or

3 the class.

4 THE ARBITRATOR: What are we doing?

5 MR. FERGUSON: I am going to ask some

6 questions.

7 THE ARBITRATOR: I am asking whether

8 you're all set to go so he can continue.

9 MR. RAMOS: I am all set.

10 THE ARBITRATOR: The witness has in

11 front of him City Exhibit 2.

12 MR. FERGUSON: He can refer to it if

13 he has no recollection.

14 THE ARBITRATOR: Fair enough. The

15 witness does not have in front of him City Exhibit 2.

16 There are some questions that are going to be asked

17 and if at a particular point we'll get it to him if

18 necessary to look at.

19 BY MR. FERGUSON:

20 Q And I was asking you question No. 3, did

21 D.C. Nolan tell you or the class that if you participated

22 in the Big Climb on their own time that towers would be

23 reduced; and your answer was yes?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And according to your chart, 7 recruits said yes

8/4/2019 Nolan31

84/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

85/317

44

1 and 13 said no; is that correct?

2 A If that's what it says.

3 Q Question No. 4, D.C. Nolan asks you to donate

4 money for punishment towers to be reduced?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And according to your chart, 8 of the recruits

7 said yes and 10 said no?

8 A That's what it says.

9 Q So according to this chart these also had

10 inconsistent answers that contradicted each other,

11 correct?

12 A Yes. That's how they said yes or no to.

13 Q And that would by shear logic stating that if

14 they were inconsistent internally among themselves that

15 some of them would be inconsistent with D.C. Nolan's

16 testimony also, correct?

17 A I wouldn't know.

18 Q Right?

19 A Well, they answered the questions and some were

20 saying yes and some were in the gray areas. I try not to

21 point the gray areas --

22 Q But 12 of them said no; 8 of them said yes.

23 Twelve of them were consistent with Nolan and 8 weren't?

24 A Okay.

25 Q Do you know who those 8 were off the top of your

8/4/2019 Nolan31

86/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

87/317

45

1 head?

2 A No.

3 Q Did those members you questioned, were any of

4 them ultimately dismissed from the class?

5 A The members I questioned?

6 Q Yes.

7 A One member was I believe.

8 Q Just one?

9 A Maybe two if you count -- two.

10 Q And do you recall what their responses were?

11 A No.

12 Q Okay. Would you expect that the ones that were

13 dismissed might have negative feelings towards Chief

14 Nolan?

15 A Yes.

16 Q In fact, you know that they did have negative

17 feelings towards Chief Nolan, correct?

18 A I wouldn't know that but I would expect if they

19 lost the job.

20 Q Were those members that were disgruntled might

21 have negative opinions against D.C. Nolan, were they

22 appointed or recommended to another class?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And is that, in your experience, something that

25 happens very often in the department; that members of the

8/4/2019 Nolan31

88/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

89/317

46

1 department who are dismissed for inadequate performance

2 are allowed to reenter another class?

3 A No.

4 Q Is that a policy of the department to allow them

5 to do that?

6 A I don't believe it's a policy.

7 Q Was there any politics involved in that?

8 A I wasn't involved with any discussions.

9 Q Okay. So it's possible there were politics

10 involved?

11 A There's politics involved with a lot of things.

12 I wasn't involved with discussions.

13 Q Fair enough.

14 Of the 20 people that you questioned, did you

15 credit the testimony of any of them more than others?

16 A No.

17 Q Not at all. You gave equal weight to each

18 response?

19 A I just brought them in and we try to get them

20 completed in a week's time the best we could, do it in a

21 short period.

22 Q With so many different answers to the seven

23 questions and so many inconsistencies among the members of

24 the class, how did you reach a conclusion with regard to

25 what you're asserting here today?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

90/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

91/317

47

1 A I didn't have -- those are the facts that were

2 stated.

3 Q So you never concluded like you're testifying

4 today that he was abusive of power and that he required

5 members -- members were intimidated? You never concluded

6 that?

7 A I concluded myself. I never put it in writing

8 or was never involved in any meetings.

9 Q So that leads me back to my previous question.

10 Based on the inconsistency in the testimony where in one

11 case 8 recruits said yes with regard to donating money for

12 reduction in towers and 12 said no, how did you conclude

13 that the 8 were correct since you didn't weight anybody

14 differently, and the 12 were incorrect?

15 A That was one question out of how many questions?

16 There was a lot of --

17 Q I am asking about that question. So you would

18 conclude that the 12 were right because you didn't weight

19 them, that D.C. Nolan never asked members of the class to

20 donate money because 12 said no and 8 said yes. If you

21 didn't weight them, if you didn't weight the 8 higher than

22 the 12, how did you come to the conclusions?

23 A Are you talking my personal?

24 Q Well, you're the one that conducted the --

25 A This is a preliminary investigation. I

8/4/2019 Nolan31

92/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

93/317

48

1 conducted a preliminary investigation and it has to go to

2 the chief's office. There's no conclusions or anything.

3 It's just facts given to me.

4 Q But now you're testifying, Chief, with all due

5 respect, and I do have respect that you didn't weight them

6 and you have concluded that Chief Nolan intimidated and

7 abused power?

8 A Some of the recruits, yes.

9 Q I am a little confused. You say that all you

10 did was report the facts and now you're testifying that

11 based on those facts that you have concluded that Chief

12 Nolan abused his power and he did a quid pro quo or

13 solicited money for reduction in towers. That's your

14 conclusion, correct?

15 A Correct.

16 Q And you also said you didn't weight the answer,

17 that you didn't credit any of the particular firefighters

18 or members of the class differently than others; and

19 again, wouldn't you say that if 8 recruits said yes to the

20 quid pro quo and 12 said no, that more than half the

21 class, in fact 60 percent of the class said he didn't do

22 that, correct, according to that answer?

23 A That's what the answers were given to me, yes.

24 Q But yet you conclude that the 8 recruits who

25 said yes were correct and the 12 that said no were

8/4/2019 Nolan31

94/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

95/317

49

1 incorrect, correct?

2 A I concluded there was reason to believe that

3 this should go to a formal hearing.

4 Q But now you're here testifying based upon

5 your -- withdrawn.

6 Is it fair to say that once you concluded your

7 report, you were no longer involved in the process?

8 A Yes.

9 MR. RAMOS: Objection. It's been

10 stated many times.

11 MR. FERGUSON: I claim it.

12 THE ARBITRATOR: Here's the question.

13 I want to make sure I am clear on this. You stated,

14 and I just want to make sure I am stating what you

15 have already stated. You stated you did not make any

16 recommendations in your report, is that correct?

17 A Correct.

18 THE ARBITRATOR: Did you have any

19 conversations with the chief or anyone who is in a

20 position or who made the decision in this case as to

21 your recommendations?

22 A I had a conversation with the chief to go

23 forward with a formal investigation and I think I was in

24 there one day and I said, We have to do -- I would

25 recommend a formal investigation.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

96/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

97/317

50

1 THE ARBITRATOR: Okay. I think that

2 you have exhausted his personal beliefs on this

3 question here because the connection is not there.

4 MR. FERGUSON: I'll move on.

5 BY MR. FERGUSON:

6 Q I also read the report of your findings that you

7 submitted to Chief Teale, and is it fair to say that you

8 only documented negative comments about D.C. Nolan?

9 A I would say the majority of it, yes, to the best

10 of my recollection.

11 Q Were there any positive comments made by the

12 recruits concerning the class and D.C. Nolan?

13 A I believe some of them mentioned that it was

14 voluntary. I am not sure if I put that in the page at the

15 end. Some of them said it was voluntary -- this could do

16 it. He would say it was voluntary that they could donate

17 but they also felt intimidated at the same time.

18 Q What about any other positive comments about

19 recruits, about the class in general? Did you ask any

20 questions concerning that?

21 A No.

22 Q No?

23 THE ARBITRATOR: Let me make sure.

24 The last comment you said that some of the recruits

25 said that he said to them, they said it was voluntary

8/4/2019 Nolan31

98/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

99/317

51

1 if they wanted to donate or not donate.

2 A Yes. I believe two or three; or I shouldn't

3 give a number but some of the recruits did say that but

4 they also felt they were intimidated and they said it was

5 sort of a -- forgot the word they said, but they felt

6 intimidated and they were going to do it and they just

7 wanted to get through training.

8 THE ARBITRATOR: Thank you. You may

9 proceed.

10 BY MR. FERGUSON:

11 Q And do you recall who those specific members who

12 said they were intimidated are?

13 A No.

14 Q Wouldn't you think it would be important, since

15 that's the reason he's being terminated, to note who was

16 making these charges against Chief Nolan?

17 A I believe it's in my notes.

18 Q It is?

19 A Yes, it is.

20 Q Okay. And you previously testified this last

21 time just as a way of recalling, you also testified that

22 towers were reduced in many ways, correct?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Trivia, good old class performance, high test

25 scores?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

100/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

101/317

52

1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you find anything wrong with that?

3 A No.

4 Q That's okay?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you didn't denote that in your report to

7 Chief Teale?

8 A That they were reduced for that also?

9 Q For a lot of reasons.


11 Q Now, you testified that there were a certain

12 charities that are countenance or allowed or recommended

13 or supported by the department, correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And others that are supported by the whole city,

16 correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q In a more formal way?

19 A Yes.

20 Q The chief one being United Way?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And each member of the fire department receives

23 a donation form for United Way along with a payroll

24 deduction slip, is that correct?

25 A Yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

102/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

103/317

53

1 Q And it's also true that that's voluntary; they

2 don't have to do it, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q It's also the case that the fire department

5 members must complete a form stating even if they choose

6 not to donate to the United Way, they would check "choose

7 not to", correct?

8 A I believe it's on the form, yes.

9 Q And wouldn't that be a situation where a member

10 might feel intimidated if they don't choose to donate to

11 the United Way since that's something that's supported by

12 the department?

13 A I don't know. I don't believe so.

14 Q So that's different. So in other words, it's

15 okay for you or Chief Teale or the leadership of the

16 department to formally submit United Way slips to all the

17 members of the department with a payroll deduction slip

18 and if somebody doesn't want to donate, they have to check

19 specifically that they don't want to donate, correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you don't think that could be intimidating

22 to members of the department?

23 A I don't believe so. I don't see how it could

24 be.

25 Q Well, don't you -- not you personally but

8/4/2019 Nolan31

104/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

105/317

54

1 doesn't the leadership of the department have final say in

2 who's promoted?

3 A The chief does, yes.

4 Q Okay. And it's the chief's charity, correct?

5 A It's the city's charity.

6 Q But he supports it; he's out front about it?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And that's not the only charitable charity or

9 charitable event that is supported by the department, is

10 it?

11 A The only charitable event? No, it isn't.

12 Q The fire department is also involved with the

13 Cromwell Children's Home, correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And that's something that the chief seeks

16 donations from the members of the department for, correct,

17 or has in the past?

18 A In the past I believe.

19 Q Okay. And MDA we mentioned, and there's also

20 toy drives for local elementary schools during

21 Christmastime?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you support that?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And in fact charities, that charity --

8/4/2019 Nolan31

106/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

107/317

55

1 withdrawn.

2 With regard to the toy drive, merchants are

3 specifically solicited, aren't they?

4 A I don't know. I am not part of that. I don't

5 collect the toys.

6 Q But if there were. If somebody comes here and

7 testifies, you have no problem with it because you know

8 that it goes on, correct?

9 A If they solicit toys?

10 Q Yes.

11 A If they solicit for toys if we're aware of it?

12 Q Yeah.

13 A I don't think the fire department. I think it's

14 the Union.

15 Q So it's okay if it's a member of the department

16 if it's Union activity but not for training?

17 A We know where they're given. They're given to

18 the children of the city.

19 Q So is it your complaint that there's not a

20 solicitation but rather that you don't know or didn't know

21 with regard to this whether or not the charities went to

22 Lea Foundation, for example, or the Big Climb or any of

23 the other charities?

24 A That's not my complaint at all. That's not my

25 concern, I should say.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

108/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

109/317

56

1 Q Okay. You stated in your previous testimony on

2 direct that you had a big concern about the safety of the

3 recruits, correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you said the city's great concern about the

6 investment in a recruit firefighter are for them to be

7 injured or removed from a class reduces the amount of

8 firefighters they can put on the line, correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And is it fair to say that you were also

11 concerned about the safety of line personnel?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Would this concern extend the concern of the

14 public citizens they are paid to protect?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Is it accurate to say when you want to

17 supplement the line firefighters you in fact want them to

18 be supplemented with probationary firefighters who can

19 perform these fire evolutions not to endanger the

20 firefighters or the public?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And in fact that's why you send firefighter

23 recruits to training for 14 weeks, correct?

24 A Yes.

25 Q So that at the end of 14 weeks they can perform

8/4/2019 Nolan31

110/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

111/317

8/4/2019 Nolan31

112/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

113/317

58

1 A With another recruit, yes.

2 Q Slide the roof ladder on the beam up to the

3 pitch of the roof?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Then flip the ladder on the side and push the

6 hook end of the ladder over the peak of the roof on the

7 building?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And that's the evolution, correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Once that is accomplished, the recruit would

12 then take up a gas powered saw, correct?

13 A Yes, they would bring up equipment.

14 Q And how much does that gas powered saw weigh?

15 A I am not sure. Twenty pounds.

16 Q Okay. Fair enough. And then they have to cut a

17 ventilation hole in the roof, 4- by 4-foot ventilation

18 hole, correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And the purpose of that is what? The purpose of

21 cutting the hole in the roof is what?

22 A The training purpose.

23 Q Well, the actual purpose.

24 A Getting the gasses out.

25 MR. RAMOS: I am going to object --

8/4/2019 Nolan31

114/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

115/317

59

1 MR. FERGUSON: Why?

2 MR. RAMOS: -- on this whole line. I

3 don't see the relevance of all that. Did I miss

4 something?

5 MR. FERGUSON: I am going to get to

6 it.

7 MR. RAMOS: It's very interesting.

8 MR. FERGUSON: It's part of his direct

9 testimony. I am going to cross-examine on it.

10 THE ARBITRATOR: I am going to let you

11 continue and then we may take a break.

12 We're in the ventilation hole.

13 MR. FERGUSON: He's answered yes.

14 BY MR. FERGUSON:

15 Q Is it fair to say this operation during a fire

16 emergency is performed during five or ten minutes?

17 A It's done as quick as possible.

18 Q Huh?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is this a crucial task when people are known to

21 be trapped in a building?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And when recruits perform this evolution at the

24 academy, is it in a controlled environment?

25 A Yes.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

116/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

117/317

60

1 Q With no actual smoke, fire, power lines down and

2 recruits would have an air mask on, correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Do you remember being in a meeting at the

5 training academy along with Debra Collins with human

6 resources during the first week in November of 2007?

7 A I don't recall.

8 Q Regarding the -- let me -- regarding the

9 substandard performance of Felicia Graves, one of the

10 recruits?

11 A Yes, I believe we did have a meeting.

12 Q And did D.C. Nolan make it clear to you that

13 recruit Graves was failing academically and physically and

14 violated the code of conduct policy because of her safety

15 issue and her lack of ability?

16 A To the best of my recollection.

17 Q And he put it in writing also. He gave you a

18 fire service to that, right?

19 A I don't recall but I believe that would be the

20 normal course to follow.

21 Q And do you recall at the conclusion of that

22 meeting that you actually went out the front door of the

23 academy along with Ms. Collins and D.C. Nolan and

24 Lieutenant Juda to see Recruit Graves to perform that

25 duty?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

118/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

119/317

61

1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you remember her performance or can you

3 describe what you witnessed?

4 A I believe Recruit Graves was at the top of the

5 35. Another probation for her was a firefighter behind

6 her with the roof ladder. She was having trouble pushing

7 the roof ladder up the roof on the beam, if I remember

8 correctly.

9 Q And after fifteen minutes isn't it true that she

10 could not effectively perform this evolution?

11 A It was a while, yes.

12 Q And you specifically, you personally asked

13 D.C. Nolan to stop the evolution?

14 A I don't recall that but I think I would have

15 stopped it, yes.

16 Q And would it be fair to say that recruit Graves

17 was being evaluated in a controlled environment without

18 dangerous smoke, fire or children to be rescued?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Would it be fair to say that she could not

21 perform minimally the requirements of that evolution?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you previously testified you received a fire

24 service. What action did you take after you received the

25 fire service?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

120/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

121/317

62

1 A On Recruit Graves?

2 Q Uh-huh.

3 A I don't recall.

4 Q Well, let me refresh your recollection or

5 attempt to. Isn't it true that you and AC Milner met with

6 Graves and allowed her to continue in the class despite

7 all the deficiencies in the Nolan fire service and after

8 you requested that she be dismissed from the class?

9 A Yes, I believe that's accurate.

10 Q Is this a common -- is it common practice for

11 two assistant chiefs to have a private conversation with a

12 recruit with numerous violations to include safety to be

13 allowed to continue in the academy?

14 A We have conversations with recruits to assistant

15 chiefs.

16 Q Is it common after viewing, understanding all

17 the problems that she was having with a myriad of

18 evolutions, with a myriad of safety concerns, to allow

19 somebody to continue at that point?

20 A We had the meeting with her and she was allowed

21 to stay in the class. We do not have the ability to

22 remove her from the class. That's up to the chief of the

23 department.

24 Q Did you make a recommendation to the chief to

25 remove her from the class?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

122/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

123/317

63

1 A I believe I did.

2 Q You did?

3 A Yes.

4 Q At that time?

5 A Within that time period.

6 Q And the chief allowed her to continue in the

7 class?


9 Q And you're aware, are you not, that many of the

10 towers -- withdrawn.

11 You're aware that the way discipline occurs and

12 has occurred for many, many years in the department is all

13 recruits, if some recruit does something wrong that the

14 whole class receives the same punishment, whether it's a

15 run?

16 A Yes.

17 Q That's standard operating quasi military

18 procedure, correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And the idea behind that is that you work as a

21 group, you work as a team on the fire grounds when you

22 become a firefighter and that you're only as strong as

23 your weakest link; would you agree with that?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And would you agree that in the estimation of

8/4/2019 Nolan31

124/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

125/317

64

1 the fire training division, that Recruit Graves just could

2 not cut the mustard, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q But she was allowed to continue by, you say,

5 Chief Teale another couple of months, correct?

6 A She was allowed to stay in the class.

7 Q Would you consider that to be preferential

8 treatment for someone?

9 A I believe, yes, because we were looking for

10 female recruits.

11 Q Okay. So if she had been a male recruit,

12 there's no doubt in your mind that she would have been

13 dismissed from the class?

14 A I am not sure.

15 Q Well, based on your experience. Based on your

16 experience.

17 A Yes.

18 Q Ultimately, two months later, she was dismissed

19 from the class?

20 A She was dismissed.

21 Q And why?

22 Let me refresh your recollection. Wasn't it due

23 to more violations and substandard operations?

24 A Substandard performance, I believe.

25 Q And substandard performance?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

126/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

127/317

65

1 A Yes.

2 Q But yet you previously testified here today that

3 Recruit Graves was invited back into the next class?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Why?

6 A The chief of the department allowed her back in

7 the class as other members. Other people that have --

8 that were removed from the class.

9 Q Based on your experience in the fire service for

10 over 30 years, is that consistent with the way you would

11 run a department? Well, you did run a department. Would

12 you have done that same thing in West Hartford when you

13 were the chief?

14 A No.

15 Q Now, she wasn't the only member of that

16 department of the training class that was dismissed during

17 that 14 weeks, correct?

18 A There was other members dismissed.

19 Q One was Edsel Rodriguez?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And he was also dismissed due to consistent

22 substandard academic and physical performance, correct?


24 THE ARBITRATOR: Are you going to be

25 going in a similar direction?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

128/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

129/317

66

1 MR. FERGUSON: No, I am almost done.

2 We're going to move right along. Thank you, though.

3 I understand.

4 BY MR. FERGUSON:

5 Q And he's not a female. Edsel is a male, right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he was also recommended for dismissal by

8 Chief Nolan prior to the actual dismissal, correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q And in spite of that, he was allowed to continue

11 in the department, in the class for some weeks thereafter?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Okay. And after he was dismissed, he was also

14 invited back to attend the following class?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Is that consistent with the way these things

17 formally happen; that people are invited back to a

18 subsequent class?

19 A No.

20 Q And the subsequent class was just

21 coincidentally, maybe ironically shortly after anonymous

22 complaints against Chief Nolan and he was suspended,

23 correct, or placed on --

24 A Yes.

25 Q So he was taken out of the class. They were

8/4/2019 Nolan31

130/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

131/317

67

1 allowed to come back in even though they had inadequately

2 performed in the first class, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Okay. Was that political?

5 A I don't make those decisions.

6 Q Okay. Do you know if they have any connections

7 with -- let's pick a name -- Mayor Perez? Aren't you

8 aware, sir, let's just cut to the chase. Aren't you aware

9 that Felicia Graves and her father, former member of the

10 fire department, are good friends with Mayor Perez?

11 A I wasn't aware of that.

12 Q What about Edsel Rodriguez? Does he have any

13 connection with Mayor Perez?

14 A I believe he's acquainted with Mayor Perez, yes.

15 Q And a third member of that class, Aida Ramos was

16 also invited back to the next class after being dismissed,

17 correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q So there's three members of the department who

20 were inadequate academically or physically and yet they

21 were invited back to the next class?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Has that ever happened before to your knowledge

24 in the 13 years you've been in the department?

25 A I can't recall that --

8/4/2019 Nolan31

132/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

133/317

68

1 Q Okay.

2 A -- that it happened.

3 Q And let's just throw one more name out there.

4 Ernesto Santiago. He also was written up for substandard

5 performance and dismissed from the class, correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he was allowed to come back also?

8 A Yes, he was.

9 Q And Aida Ramos and Ernesto Santiago also have

10 political connections in the town?

11 A I am not aware of it.

12 Q You're aware of any connection to Mayor Perez?

13 A I am not aware.

14 Q With regard to the investigation of Chief Nolan,

15 was the -- you said you did the preliminary

16 investigations?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And you recommended a formal investigation?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that normally what happens with an

21 investigation? Is there normally an investigation after

22 you conduct it with regard to discipline?

23 A Yes. They do a formal.

24 Q Who does the formal?

25 A The chief will do it.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

134/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

135/317

69

1 Q To your knowledge did the chief do the formal

2 investigation in this case?

3 A This case?

4 Q Yes.

5 A There was a meeting in his office when he had

6 corporation counsel there and he was conducting it.

7 Q Isn't it true that after you had talked to --

8 maybe you don't know but if you don't state it and we'll

9 go on -- isn't it true that the investigation was actually

10 conducted by corporation counsel, by this gentleman here?

11 A It was in the chief's office.

12 Q It was in the chief's office. And do you know

13 of any other time in 13 years -- you and I have done a lot

14 of disciplinary situations -- where the corporation

15 counsel --

16 MR. RAMOS: Objection. It's

17 irrelevant.

18 MR. FERGUSON: No, it's not. I claim

19 it. It's absolutely relevant. It's part of my case.

20 THE ARBITRATOR: Let's finish this

21 line of questioning here and then we're going to meet

22 outside.

23 Go ahead.

24 BY MR. FERGUSON:

25 Q Do you know of any other time in 13 years, and I

8/4/2019 Nolan31

136/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

137/317

70

1 would venture to guess just from my recollection you and I

2 have been involved in formal and informal investigations

3 of firefighters a hundred times in the last 13 years, of

4 those hundred, what other time other than Chief Nolan was

5 the corporation counsel involved in what you term a formal

6 investigation?

7 A When Chief Nolan was disciplined back under

8 Chief Dobson's administration. We had -- I can't think of

9 the lawyer's name now for the city. I believe you were

10 involved with that.

11 Q So other than Chief Nolan who at the time was a

12 lieutenant, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And there's been investigations in my tenure of

15 deputy chiefs, captains, lieutenants, many line

16 firefighters, other than Chief Nolan, has any other

17 investigation, formal or informal been conducted albeit

18 under the auspices of a chief by a member of the

19 corporation counsel?

20 The answer is no, correct?

21 A I am trying to recall if there's any others.

22 Because corporation counsel is involved with some of our

23 disciplines, terminations.

24 No, I don't recall.

25 Q Not at the investigation stage?

8/4/2019 Nolan31

138/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

139/317

71

1 A I would agree with that.

2 Q I am talking about the investigation.

3 A Yes.

4 Q There's never been in the hundred-plus

5 investigations I have been involved in and you have been

6 involved in many of them if not all of them, where the

7 corporation counsel is involved.

8 A Yes.

9 MR. FERGUSON: I am going to move on.

10 THE ARBITRATOR: Off the record.

11 Let's talk.

12 (Short recess for counsel and the

13 arbitrator to confer.)

14 BY MR. FERGUSON:

15 Q Moving back to the issue of safety, you stated

16 in previous testimony that deputy chief of training is

17 assigned the safety officer's role in the department,

18 correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And what does he do as a safety officer?

21 A He responds to major incidents and he has the

22 ability to overrule the incident commander. He can

23 change, alter or completely stop any evolution going on at

24 a fire scene in fear of safety of the firefighters or

25 civilians.

8/4/2019 Nolan31

140/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

141/317

72

1 Q And that's to protect the safety and not just

2 the firefighters but the public, too?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And so it would be important for him as the

5 training chief to make certain that nobody gets out of the

6 academy unless they can effectively perform the functions

7 of a firefighter?

8 A Yes.

9 Q So you would agree with me that it's part of his

10 responsibility to wash out firefighters who are incapable

11 of performing at least at a minimum level on the fire

12 grounds?

13 A To recommend, yes.

14 Q Right, the chief ultimately decides that?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And is it true that normally the chief goes

17 along with what the training chief says with regard to the

18 ability of the firefighters?

19 A I would say after the chief looks into it, he

20 would make a decision.

21 Q Other than these four people we have talked

22 about in testimony today, do you know of any other

23 firefighters that were recommended for dismissal or ever

24 reinstated?

25 A I don't remember the names but some got hurt in

8/4/2019 Nolan31

142/317


8/4/2019 Nolan31

143/317

73

1 a previous class and have gone back.

2 Q But I am not talking about people who were hurt

3 or in fact there was one actually that was called to jury

4 duty for a significant period of time?

5 A Yes.

6 Q I am talking about people who could not

7 physically or academically perform the functions of a

8 firefighter. Do you know of any who were washed out for

9 those reasons directly related to the abilities of the

10 functions of a firefighter who have ever been reinstated

11 and put into a subsequent class?

12 A No.

13 Q Now, subsequent to Nolan's suspension while he

14 was still employed, there was another class, correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And five recruits quit or were dismissed from

17 that class, correct?

18 A I don't recall but we dismissed people, ye

nolan31

Documents