clp10_15
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Chapter 15 Depositions of Auto Dealer Managers Concerning
Yo-Yo and Other Sales Techniques (FL)
Raymond G. Ingalsbe received a B.A. from the University of Cincinnati in 1973, and his
J.D. from the University of Miami in 1976. Mr. Ingalsbe has been a board certified civil trial
lawyer since 1985. He is a member of the Academy of Florida Trial Lawyers and is involved in
attempting to draft changes to Floridas Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act as a member
of the Consumer Protection Committee of the Florida Bar and the AFTL. Mr. Ingalsbe was the
chairman of the Palm Beach County Bar Association Consumer Law Committee for four years.
He is a frequent lecturer on sales fraud and deceptive and unfair trade practices, and has received
two pro bono awards from the Palm Beach County Bar Association for his work in consumer
law, and received an award for his work on the Academy of Florida Trial Lawyers journal. Mr.
Ingalsbe is a charter member of the National Association of Consumer Advocates. His office is
in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida and his practice is limited to consumer claims.
Section 15.1 is the deposition of an F & I (finance and insurance) Director at a franchised
automobile dealer regarding his standard operating procedures for preparing the paperwork,
financing, additional charges, and disclosures involved in the spot delivery1 sale of an
automobile. It mentions the Beacon credit scoring system used by Equifax and finance
companies.2
Section 15.2 is the deposition of a general sales manager at a franchised automobile
dealer. It discusses closing car sales and determining whether to spot deliver a car to marginal
credit risks and financer conditions on approval of financing.
1 See National Consumer Law Center, Automobile Fraud 1.3.4 (2d ed. 2003 and Supp.).
2 See National Consumer Law Center, Fair Credit Reporting (5th ed. 2002 and Supp.).
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15.1 Deposition of F & I Director
1
1 IN THE FIFTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT
2 IN AND FOR PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO. CA 02-11166 AH4
5
6 [CONSUMER],
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs.
9 MARGIE, LLC d/b/a TANNER WEST
PALM BEACH AUTOMART/KIA,
10
Defendant.
11
12 - - -
13 DEPOSITION OF [WITNESS]
A WITNESS
14 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF
15 - - -
16
17 DATE: Wednesday, October 8, 2003
18 TIME: 10:03 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.
19
20
21
22
23 INDEPENDENT COURT REPORTING, INC.400 Executive Center Drive
24 Suite 107
West Palm Beach, Florida 33409
25 (561) 697-9092
2
1 I N D E X
2
3 WITNESS: PAGE
4 [WITNESS]5 Direct Examination by Mr. Ingalsbe 5
6
7 Signature Letter to Mr. Duffy 90
8 Errata Sheet (To be forwarded later) 91
9
10
11
12 EXHIBITS: PAGE
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13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 for identification 29
(Purchase Order)
14
Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 for identification 30
15 (Memorandum Invoice)
16 Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 for identification 35
(Anti-Theft Guarantee)
17
Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification 36
18 (Truth-In-Lending Disclosures)
19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 for identification 64
(Bailment Agreement)
20
Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 for identification 68
21 (Agreement to Provide Insurance)
22 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 for identification 69
(Florida Insurance Affidavit)
23
Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 for identification 6924 (Odometer Disclosure Statement)
25
3
1 Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 for identification 70
(Title Reassignment)
2
Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification 71
3 (Transfer of Registration)
4 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11 for identification 71
(Transfer of Tag)5
Plaintiff's Exhibit 12 for identification 72
6 (Loan Approval Package)
7 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 for identification 73
(Application Statement)
8
Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 for identification 77
9 (Handwritten Form)
10 Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 for identification 77
(Credit Report)
11Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 for identification 79
12 (Certificate of Origin)
13 Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 for identification 80
(Decline Letter)
14
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4
1 The deposition of [WITNESS], a
2 witness in the above-entitled and numbered cause, was
3 taken before me, Dinah Herrero, Registered
4 Professional Reporter and Notary Public for the State
5 of Florida at Large, at 400 Executive Center Drive,
6 Suite 107, in the City of West Palm Beach, County of
7 Palm Beach, State of Florida, on Wednesday, the 8th
8 day of October, 2003.9
10 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:
11 Raymond G. Ingalsbe, Esquire
RAYMOND G. INGALSBE, P.A.
12 4400 PGA Boulevard
Suite 800
13 Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410
14 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
15 Lawrence Duffy, Esquire
LAW OFFICE OF LAWRENCE DUFFY
16 7834 Manor Forest BoulevardBoynton Beach, Florida 33436
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
1 THEREUPON,
2 [WITNESS],
3 having been first duly sworn by me, was examined and
4 testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. INGALSBE:
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7 Q State your name and address, please?
8 A [Name and address redacted.]
9
10
11 Q Are you employed?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Where?
14 A At AutoMart/Kia.
15 Q What is your position?
16 A Finance Director.
17 Q How long have you been Finance Director at
18 that location?
19 A It will be approximately one year on the
20 28th of this month.
21 Q And what does a Finance Director do?
22 A He's responsible for supervising the
23 Finance Department, the Business Managers, getting
24 deals approved, and getting them sent out to the
25 bank, and getting them funded.
6
1 Q Getting them approved with a third party
2 lending source?
3 A Correct.
4 Q So you actually get on the phone with them,
5 and try to get them to buy deals?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And before you began as Finance Director,
8 at AutoMart/Kia, what did you do?9 A I worked for the Nappleton Auto Group, as
10 Finance Manager, for a year and a half.
11 Q Where was the Nappleton Auto Group?
12 A Northlake Boulevard.
13 Q Were you there the whole time, a year and a
14 half?
15 A I was there two and a half years.
16 Q What were your other positions at
17 Nappleton?
18 A Sales Manager.
19 Q Gee, I didn't know they had been there that20 long.
21 A Well, it was Ed Morse, and Ed Morse became
22 Nappleton.
23 Q Were you working for Ed Morse for awhile?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q Did Nappleton buy out Ed Morse?
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7
1 A Correct.
2 Q How long did you work for Nappleton?
3 A They bought it in October.
4 Q What year?
5 A 2002 -- October 2000.
6 Q And in October 2000, what was your position
7 there?
8 A Well, okay. In October of 2000 it was Ed
9 Morse/Kia, but Nappleton was in the process of buying
10 it at the time. So we were like in ninety-day
11 semi -- you know, between the two companies, and as
12 of February of 2001 I was made the Finance Manager.
13 Q The Finance Manager, as opposed to Finance
14 Director?
15 A Right, because I was doing only special
16 finance.
17 Q What is special finance?
18 A Secondary financing.19 Q Have you reviewed the [Consumer] deal?
20 A Yes, I have.
21 Q Is this a special finance deal?
22 A Yes, it is, definitely.
23 Q Give me the chain of command at West Palm
24 AutoMart/Kia, beginning with you, and going up?
25 A My immediate Supervisor is Chuck Arbor.
8
1 He's the Store Manager.2 Q Chuck?
3 A Charles, A-r-b-o-r.
4 Q And who is above him?
5 A In the store, no one.
6 Q Outside the store?
7 A It would be the LLC, whoever in the
8 corporate offices.
9 Q It would be William Tanner, wouldn't it?
10 MR. DUFFY: Objection; leading. You can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know enough of the13 details of who actually owned LLC.
14 BY MR. INGALSBE:
15 Q I didn't ask who owned it. I said he
16 answers to William Tanner, doesn't he?
17 A I wouldn't want to say that a hundred
18 percent, because it's a corporation. I don't deal
19 with that.
20 Q We're not talking about ownership. We're
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21 talking about who runs the show?
22 A Believe it or not, Chuck Arbor, I answer to
23 him directly.
24 Q I know you do. He answers to who, my
25 question to you is?
9
1 A At times I guess he would call Mr. Tanner,
2 but I don't know that for a fact.
3 Q Where, in Memphis?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Mr. Tanner has a house here as well?
6 A Yes, he does.
7 Q He stops by the dealership occasionally?
8 A He does.
9 Q When he does, does he conduct sales
10 meetings?
11 A Yes, I'm aware he has.12 Q Aren't you ever in attendance?
13 A No. I have nothing to do with sales, as
14 far as the meetings are concerned.
15 Q Does he ever have meetings with you in
16 attendance?
17 A He has meetings with me, as far as Finance
18 Director.
19 Q That's right. How often does that occur?
20 A Probably once every six months.
21 Q What does he ask?
22 A He wants to know what I'm working on.23 Sometimes he'll ask me what banks we're using at the
24 present time, and things like that. Basically, like
25 what the policies are. For instance, have any banks
10
1 changed their policies, and things like that.
2 Q And aren't you responsible, as Finance
3 Director, to create a report, a finance report?
4 A Yes.
5 Q How often?6 A I create one once a month.
7 Q And who is that for?
8 A That's for Chuck.
9 Q And what does Chuck do, does he discuss --
10 A He discusses it with the Controller of the
11 store.
12 Q Who is the Controller?
13 A James Elliott.
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14 Q How long has he been Controller?
15 A About six months now.
16 Q Aren't those reports transmitted to
17 Memphis, for Mr. Tanner and --
18 A Well, I would --
19 Q Let me finish the question; Mr. Tanner and
20 Angie Melson?
21 A I would have to assume so.
22 Q Wait a minute. Let me ask you questions.
23 Why are you assuming?
24 A Because I'm not in the loop when it comes
25 to that. In other words, I report to Chuck and
11
1 James, and then they report to the corporate offices.
2 Q How many people are you in charge of?
3 A Two.
4 Q Are there three people in the Finance5 Department, total?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Has it ever been as many as four?
8 A Not since I've been there.
9 Q When did you begin there, again, the month
10 and the year?
11 A It was October of 2001.
12 Q Who was --
13 A I'm sorry, October 2002. I've been there a
14 year.
15 Q Who was there before you, as Finance16 Director?
17 A The guy that I succeeded was -- there's
18 been so many guys there. What is his name? I don't
19 recollect right offhand.
20 Q All right. Give me your employment history
21 in the auto business?
22 A Okay. I came to Florida in 1991. I worked
23 for Palm Beach Auto Storage, which was a
24 buy here/pay here. I worked for them about three and
25 a half years.
12
1 Q What was your position?
2 A Salesman; then I became a Sales Manager.
3 Then they were bought by Don Cook Motors. I worked
4 with them for two months. I worked there for two
5 months, also as a Sales Manager.
6 They were bought by First Choice, which was
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7 similar to a buy here/pay here, but it was a
8 corporate buy here/pay here, operating out of
9 Orlando, Florida. I worked for them for two and a
10 half years. They had seven stores down here. I ran
11 four of the stores here.
12 Q Doing what?
13 A Sales Manager. Then I left -- they went
14 out of business.
15 Q What year, roughly?
16 A That's what I'm trying to figure. It was
17 probably in '99. Then I applied for a position at
18 the Palm Beach Auto Mall. I worked first as a
19 salesman. Then I became the Mazda Sales Manager. I
20 stayed there until October of 2001.
21 Then I went to Ed Morse Kia, and they were
22 in the process of selling the store at the time, and
23 then I worked for the Nappleton Auto Group, and after
24 that I went to AutoMart/Kia.
25 Q At Nappleton, were you Finance there as
13
1 well?
2 A Yes, I was doing financing, yeah.
3 Q Have you only been in the finance end of it
4 for the past three or four years?
5 A Yes, that would be correct.
6 Q Before that it was just in the sales end of
7 it?
8 A Correct.9 Q You started out in '91. What did you do
10 before that?
11 A I lived in New York, and I ran a basketball
12 program in New York City.
13 Q But you weren't in the auto sales?
14 A No, no. That's all my auto history.
15 Q Now, does West Palm AutoMart/Kia still have
16 something called a Road to the Sale?
17 A Road to the Sale. In other words, it's a
18 program?
19 Q Something called Road to the Sale?20 MR. DUFFY: If you don't know, you can say
21 that.
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know. I really
23 don't know.
24 BY MR. INGALSBE:
25 Q What licenses do you operate under, if any?
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14
1 A Just Florida Department of Finance.
2 Q And do you have the license, or does the
3 dealership?
4 A No, I don't; the dealership.
5 Q Is it hung on the wall in your office --
6 A Yes, it is.
7 Q Let me finish, I know you know what I'm
8 saying, so she can get it down.
9 A That's fine.
10 Q And what does that license permit you to
11 do?
12 A It gives us the right to finance, to do
13 deals with banks, and do financing.
14 Q Well, to do the financing for customers,
15 isn't it?
16 A Correct.
17 Q What is the F & I procedure, like when
18 you -- when F & I is first introduced to the19 customer, what is given to you, if anything?
20 A Okay. We're given a deal jacket, a deal
21 folder. In other words, the sales desk brings us
22 similar to what you have there in the jacket.
23 Q What's in it when you get it?
24 A Well, we open it up, spread it down, and go
25 through each of the various papers in it.
15
1 Q That's what I'm asking, what are the2 papers?
3 A There's a credit ap. There's the
4 customer's reference sheet. If there's stipulations,
5 such as proof of income, various verification forms
6 and so forth. A signed, what they call it?
7 Q Buyer's order?
8 A Buyer's order, and a signed credit ap. If
9 there's a trade involved, there will be a trade
10 appraisal sheet in there. They go out to the various
11 cars that they're buying, and they'll put in a
12 description of what the car is, because we have to13 know to enter this information in the computer.
14 There's always like a worksheet. If we're promising
15 the customers anything, that will be on the sheet.
16 Q Is that the responsibility of the salesman?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How about insurance forms, do you get any
19 of those?
20 A Yes, we do.
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21 Q From the salesman?
22 A Yes. In other words, the salesman will ask
23 the customer if there's an insurance form, and what
24 we're insuring and so forth, and write down the
25 information.
16
1 Q You get it. What do you do with it?
2 A We begin to load it into the computer.
3 Q Does the Sales Manager have anything to do
4 with it, between the salesman and you?
5 A Well, yes, because the salesman is putting
6 the numbers in the computer for us. In other words,
7 they're the ones that are structuring what we're
8 going to sell the car for, so they're structuring a
9 deal for us.
10 Q The Sales Manager?
11 A The Sales Manager, correct.12 Q So what then do you input into the
13 computer, in addition to what they've already put in
14 there?
15 A Well, if the customer is sitting in front
16 of us, we'll verify the information. In other words,
17 I'll ask them is this your correct address, correct
18 spelling. We like to look at the driver's license,
19 to make sure it's entered correctly. We'll ask the
20 customer, verbally, whether this is the correct
21 address.
22 Q Entered correctly; do you put it in the23 computer, the driver's license number?
24 A Sometimes we do it. Sometimes we don't,
25 because what will happen is there are screens that
17
1 pop up, but there are some deals -- I worked on a lot
2 of different systems, and some systems allow you to
3 do it, and some don't.
4 Q Allow you to do what?
5 A They'll prompt you for that information.6 Q You mean the driver's license number?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q Yes?
9 A Yes.
10 Q But my initial question was in addition to
11 what the Sales Manager has already put into the
12 computer --
13 A Right.
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14 Q -- related to the buyer --
15 A Correct.
16 Q -- what else do you actually input into
17 that same computer?
18 A No, I just verify the information.
19 Q You don't input anything?
20 A Well, I mean -- no, because a lot of
21 times -- okay. The sales desk has already entered
22 the numbers for us, okay, so they've said what
23 they're charging the customer for the car.
24 Q You don't have to go through that again.
25 My only question to you is do you put anything into
18
1 the computer, the Finance Department?
2 A Yes, we do.
3 Q What?
4 A All of the information that the Sales5 Department has not put in. Let me tell you what
6 information will go in. They'll look at --
7 MR. DUFFY: Just stop. You answered his
8 question. Maybe that's all he cares about.
9 BY MR. INGALSBE:
10 Q You said that the Sales Manager has already
11 put in the numbers that you're going to work with?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Do the Sales Managers put anything else in
14 the system?
15 A No.16 Q So if you've already got the numbers
17 already in the computer, don't you then have to type
18 in, I should say punch in the buyer's names,
19 addresses, phone numbers?
20 A I said that's what we were doing.
21 Q I misunderstood that. I couldn't
22 understand that. In addition to the customer's
23 description and their address, what else do you put
24 into the computer?
25 A This follows screens. After that it has --
19
1 let me show how I would put a name. I sit here, I
2 ask the customer his name, if this is the correct
3 name. I ask if this is your correct address. Then I
4 ask is this your correct job number. Is this your
5 correct home phone number. I go down the system,
6 because the system is prompting me.
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7 We move to the next screen, the car
8 information screen, and we verify this is the car
9 you're buying. Then we move to the next screen,
10 which is the insurance information. If the customer
11 has insurance information, because usually it's on
12 the sheet, we input it, and put in the salesman's
13 name, and that's all the information that is inputed
14 by the Finance Department. That's all that is asked.
15 Q The Finance Department has no discretion on
16 the APR number, is that correct?
17 A No.
18 Q The Sales Manager has already determined
19 what the APR is going to be on the deal?
20 A Usually APR -- ninety percent of the time
21 APR is just inputed into the computer based on what
22 the Credit Manager himself will say probably the way
23 the deal is going to score.
24 Q What Credit Manager?
25 A That would be myself. In other words,
20
1 they'll come ask me the credit worthiness of the
2 customer, based on the computer scoring.
3 Q Who will ask you?
4 A The Sales Manager.
5 Q What does he have to ask you about?
6 A Because the credit report, I'll look at a
7 credit report.8 Q Who pulls the credit report?
9 A I do.
10 Q Not the Sales Manager?
11 A No, I do.
12 Q You do. What information have you been
13 given, and by whom, in order for you to get a credit
14 report?
15 A Okay. Sales people will bring me a signed
16 credit ap, which gives me the authority to pull that
17 credit report.
18 Q This is before they introduce the customer19 to you?
20 A Correct.
21 Q So you pull a credit history, and then what
22 do you do with that?
23 A I communicate with the desk whether or not
24 this deal has merit. In other words, if I pull a
25 credit report, and I get a four fifty Beacon, and the
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21
1 customer has not paid anybody, the odds are the banks
2 are not going to pick up the deal. Do you follow
3 what I'm saying?
4 Q In that circumstance --
5 A Well --
6 Q Wait a minute. Don't say anything. In the
7 circumstance you just described, a four fifty Beacon,
8 and the guy is not paying anything, what do you then
9 tell the Sales Manager?
10 A I recommend they do not sell that person a
11 car.
12 Q Let's just say that you evaluated it, and
13 it's marginal, but still doable?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q What do you tell the Sales Manager?
16 A Then that's their decision to make. I'll
17 just recommend -- a recommendation, but it's his18 decision.
19 Q Under the circumstances I described,
20 marginable but doable, is that a special finance
21 situation?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q What differentiates -- what causes you to
24 put somebody in a special finance situation?
25 A Bank criterias. We have books that we get
221 from the banks, that set up their programs. A person
2 comes up with a seven hundred Beacon, we know that
3 the bank is going to buy it; AmSouth or SunTrust will
4 buy that deal.
5 Five fifty to six fifty, that's a big, big
6 gray area. This is the reason you hire a Finance
7 Director or so forth, because now he has to evaluate
8 how this deal is going to be presented, whether or
9 not this deal can be sold or not to a bank. That's
10 the reason why these companies exist.
11 Q What companies?12 A Americredit, Household Finance, TransSouth,
13 Triad. I mean, it's a million-dollar market.
14 Q I understand. By the way, you don't
15 make -- well, maybe I misunderstood.
16 When it is marginal, but you think it's
17 possible, do you tell the Sales Manager it's your
18 decision whether you want to do it or not?
19 A Correct.
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20 Q Say the Sales Manager says yeah, let's try
21 it, and then you run him through the F & I
22 Department, and get them to sign all the papers,
23 right?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q Yes?
23
1 A Yes.
2 Q I guess I'll ask you now, I would have
3 asked you this later, but once -- do you deliver the
4 customer then?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You spot them, right?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Put them out in the car. You haven't got
9 the deal bought yet. Do you then shop it to more
10 than one subprime lender?11 A Yes, we do.
12 Q How many?
13 A We'll start with -- basically, what I'll do
14 is every bank has certain criteria. So a lot of
15 banks now are computer scoring. So if it's a certain
16 score, that particular bank, it doesn't make any
17 sense to shop it there, because you know it's an
18 automatic turn down.
19 Q Even Triad?
20 A A lot of them.
21 Q Even the secondary lenders?22 A They have cutoffs.
23 Q They do?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q I don't need to ask you that. They have
24
1 cutoffs, so you know that, as Finance Director,
2 right?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q You know if somebody has a particularly low5 score, but a doable score, you send them to somebody
6 who is the most willing to buy that --
7 A Usually what I'll do -- first of all, we
8 instruct -- no matter what, a customer is told right
9 up front, before they even go off that lot, that
10 until you're financed, you do not own this car.
11 This is stated in the strongest terms, and
12 the reason for that is you don't want to give people
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13 false hopes. You don't want to get their hopes up.
14 I don't need a customer out there showing this car
15 all over the place, thinking he owns this car.
16 Q Why deliver it then?
17 A Because the car business is very
18 competitive, and customers -- this is my philosophy,
19 as long as customers understand this is subject to
20 their being approved, that they don't own this car, I
21 don't feel there's any harm being done.
22 Q Well, that's not --
23 A That's my philosophy.
24 Q That may be your philosophy, but why do you
25 spot deliver a car?
25
1 A I'll give you a better example.
2 MR. DUFFY: You answered it.
3 BY MR. INGALSBE:4 Q I don't want to know your philosophy. I
5 want to know why West Palm AutoMart/Kia delivers a
6 car to somebody with questionable credit?
7 A Why do somebody sell a house?
8 Q I asked you a question.
9 MR. DUFFY: He's answering your question.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm giving you an answer.
11 Why would somebody sell a house with marginal credit,
12 anticipating they're going to get it done? The same
13 philosophy. It's a business decision.
14 As long as the customer is aware, until15 they're financed, they don't own the car, this
16 customer is not going out of there with that
17 expectation. They can get a phone call to bring the
18 car back to the store. As long as that's done,
19 there's no harm. I feel the dealership suffers if
20 this happens.
21 BY MR. INGALSBE:
22 Q That's to take them out of the market,
23 correct?
24 A I wouldn't have to say that. I'll tell you
25 why, because if you use that same philosophy in any
26
1 product, you can sell anything in this country today,
2 and it's competitive, because we live in a
3 competitive market.
4 I'll give you an example; the election
5 yesterday in California, it's the classic example of
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6 just shopping, okay. We take three hundred people,
7 and shop them all over the State of California. Were
8 all of them qualified? Was there any expectation
9 that each and every one of these people could be
10 Governor of California? No, but they put them out.
11 Q I don't understand the analogy, but my
12 question to you is you spot deliver to take the
13 people out of the market, so they don't go to the
14 competitor, and buy there, correct?
15 A No.
16 Q You don't think that's correct?
17 A No.
18 Q What is the reason?
19 A The customer comes to shop the market at
20 our store. He wants to buy it there. We're hoping
21 we're going to get the customer bought, but we're
22 informing the customer the odds are if you're not
23 bought, you're going to bring the car back.
24 Q You have all the information into the25 computer; what happens next?
27
1 A Okay. One of my Business Managers will
2 bring the deal to my office. Remember, I'm not --
3 Q Let me ask you about what the Business
4 Manager does. You know that, right?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q In fact, do you handle occasional --
7 A Yes, I do. I do several of them.8 Q What is the procedure; you have it in the
9 computer, then what?
10 A Then I print all the forms.
11 Q What are all the forms? Can you describe
12 them? I'll show you what I have. To the best of
13 your ability --
14 A Fine. Contract, a Power Pack, Buyer's
15 Order.
16 Q What's the Power Pack?
17 A That's the State of Florida forms. There's
18 various ones that the State of Florida requires us to19 have customers sign.
20 Q When you call it a Power Pack, are they all
21 attached to one another?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do they have perforations?
24 A Yes, they do.
25 Q So you can take them apart?
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28
1 A Yes, you can.
2 Q When you present the Power Pack to the
3 customer for signature, is it still together, on a
4 long piece of paper?
5 MR. DUFFY: Just answer if you know.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I can demonstrate, I
7 can show you exactly.
8 BY MR. INGALSBE:
9 Q Well, the Power Pack, what Mr. Duffy
10 brought with him, the deal file in this case, the
11 Power Pack has probably been separated, hasn't it, by
12 the time it's through financing?
13 A Yes, eventually it is.
14 Q All right. The Power Pack has, you say,
15 State forms. What are they, Odometer Statements?
16 A Odometer Statements, a Bailment Agreement.
17 Q Bailment Agreement, what else?18 A A Power of Attorney. If there's a trade
19 involved, the trade information. I'm trying to go
20 over each one; anti-pollution.
21 Q A Pollution Control Statement, or whatever
22 it is?
23 A Pollution Control Statement. I think
24 that's about all that I can remember offhand.
25 Q All right. Is it presented to the customer
291 in one form? In other words, sign here, sign here,
2 sign here?
3 A It's prsented in a form, and each form is
4 explained to the customer as they sign.
5 Q I understand, but I guess my question to
6 you is does the Finance Manager separate the forms,
7 and then present them to them one at a time?
8 A Every Finance Manager is different. They
9 have different procedures.
10 Q What do you do?
11 A Usually I present the form out in front of12 the customer, and I explain each one as they're
13 signing it.
14 Q Since we have all this stuff here, this is
15 my own pile here, I'm going to mark this Number 1.
16 Identify that, if you would?
17 A Okay. This is a standard Buyer's Order
18 from AutoMart/Kia.
19 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
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20 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 1 for
21 identification).
22 BY MR. INGLASBE:
23 Q That is a signed Buyer's Order, so that's
24 gone through the computer?
25 A Yes, it has.
30
1 Q Take a look at what I've marked Exhibit
2 Number 2. Tell me what that is?
3 A That's the invoice -- this is exactly what
4 we paid for the car from Kia.
5 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
6 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 2 for
7 identification).
8 BY MR. INGALSBE:
9 Q That's the invoice from the distributor,
10 correct?11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, I point at the top of Exhibit Number
13 1, where it says -- I'm not sure what it says,
14 selling price?
15 A Nineteen four thirty-one.
16 Q Nineteen four thirty-one eighty-four,
17 right?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Yes?
20 A Yes.
21 Q But the MSRP on Exhibit Number 2 is less22 than the selling price, isn't it?
23 A Well, that's the suggested price. In other
24 words, that's what the manufacturer is suggesting
25 that we can sell it for.
31
1 Q I didn't ask a question. Listen to my
2 question. We'll get to that in a moment. We'll let
3 you blast off, if you feel like it. I don't think he
4 wants you to.5 A I won't.
6 Q Looking at Exhibit Number 2, the total at
7 the bottom says nineteen thousand one hundred
8 eighty-nine dollars.
9 That is the MSRP, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q That number would appear on the window, as
12 a Maroney (Phonetic) sticker, wouldn't it?
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13 MR. DUFFY: What?
14 BY MR. INGALSBE:
15 Q The MSRP?
16 A Not necessarily.
17 Q Not Exhibit 2, I'm talking about the window
18 sticker?
19 A No, this is not on the window sticker.
20 Q I know. There is a window sticker?
21 A Yes. That would be the price that would
22 probably be on there.
23 Q The MSRP appears on the invoice sticker?
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q I'm sorry, the window sticker?
32
1 A When you say Maroone, I don't call it that.
2 Q Maroney, actually, it's called. My
3 question to you, I ask the question, and you can4 answer it, why is the price on Exhibit 1, at the top;
5 that is, nineteen four thirty-one, higher than the
6 MSRP that appears at the bottom of Exhibit 2?
7 A That's probably what they decided to sell
8 the car for.
9 Q Are you allowed to exceed MSRP?
10 A Yes.
11 Q How do you know?
12 A This is just a suggested price. This is
13 what the manufacturer is suggesting we sell it for.
14 Q Does AutoMart/Kia exceed the MSRP,15 routinely?
16 A I don't -- every dealership -- I've seen
17 this many times. I can't tell what policies
18 everybody do.
19 Q Looking at Exhibit 1, I highlighted a
20 four-hundred ninety-nine-dollar figure.
21 What is that?
22 A Basically, it spells it out. It's
23 considered a pack that the dealership has on cars.
24 Every dealership has a pack.
25 Q Isn't it an additional profit to the
33
1 dealership?
2 A To be honest with you --
3 Q Of course, you are under oath.
4 A I don't know. I'll tell you why, because I
5 don't see that in my profits, you know, when I'm
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6 paid.
7 Q This is a noncommissionable amount of
8 money, isn't it?
9 A Yes, I think it is.
10 Q And that four hundred ninety-nine dollars
11 is simply added to the price of the vehicle, isn't
12 it?
13 A Yes, it is.
14 Q Now, the third thing I've highlighted on
15 Exhibit 1 is a hundred-ninety-five-dollar charge.
16 What is that for?
17 A It's a security etch.
18 Q But it's printed on there, instead of typed
19 in there. Is that mandatory?
20 A No. The customer doesn't have to take
21 that.
22 Q How does the customer know they don't have
23 to take it?24 A Because when we disclose the contract, we
25 disclose they're buying a hundred-ninety-five-dollar
34
1 etch, and if they don't want that, it can be removed.
2 Q How can it be removed from the windows?
3 A I believe the Service Department, because I
4 believe they acid it in, they can acid it out. I
5 don't know.
6 Q Has it happened, to your knowledge --7 A To my knowledge, I don't know.
8 Q You don't know the answer to the question?
9 MR. DUFFY: If you don't know, don't guess,
10 because it's going to confuse us.
11 BY MR. INGALSBE:
12 Q The hundred-ninety-five-dollar charge, have
13 you ever seen, either you or in your presence, a
14 customer decline the hundred-ninety-five-dollar etch?
15 A No.
16 Q But your testimony is that they are aware
17 they can decline it, is that correct?18 A Yes.
19 Q Have you ever had occasion to mark or line
20 through --
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q Wait a minute.
23 MR. DUFFY: Let him finish.
24 BY MR. INGALSBE:
25 Q To line through the
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19 Q What is it?
20 A A Retail Installment Contract.
21 Q And is that what some people refer to as a
22 State form, or you never heard that?
23 A I never heard that expression.
24 Q But is this a generic Retail Installment
25 Contract form that you use at Kia?
37
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you ever use any forms with the name of
3 a lender typed on it, or I should say that's already
4 preprinted on it?
5 A Not since I've been there, but there are
6 forms that come from lenders.
7 Q Like SunTrust might have its own form?
8 A SunTrust don't, but some banks do; Chrysler
9 Corporation, Ford Motor Credit, I've seen those10 before.
11 Q Now, we were talking about the procedure in
12 F & I. You get them to sign the Power Pack, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And the forms that we've seen here as well?
15 A Correct.
16 Q What, in addition; anything in addition?
17 A If they buy any products, we present that
18 to them; Gap.
19 Q For example, Gap?
20 A Service contracts.21 Q The extended warranty?
22 A That's a service contract.
23 Q Anything else?
24 A Application for Title.
25 Q That's not part of the Power Pack?
38
1 A No.
2 Q All right. What else?
3 A We have a Rescission Agreement.4 Q That's the Bailment Agreement?
5 A Yes, but we also have a separate one too.
6 It's the same thing.
7 Q Let me ask you this; at least I haven't
8 seen a Rescission Agreement in this case, but I did
9 see a Bailment Agreement.
10 Have you been using the separate Rescission
11 Agreement since you've been working there?
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12 A We use both.
13 Q Ever since you started there?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. If you don't mind, let me look
16 through here.
17 Is there a Rescission Agreement in here?
18 MR. DUFFY: No, there's not.
19 MR. INGALSBE: You know there's not?
20 MR. DUFFY: No, there's not.
21 BY MR. INGALSBE:
22 Q Obviously, this deal happened in 2000. You
23 don't know if they were using separate Rescission
24 Agreements?
25 A I don't know that.
39
1 Q Then is the Rescission Agreement used by2 Kia for the same reason the Bailment Agreement, for
3 vehicle spot delivery?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Why have two?
6 A It was just recommended that there be
7 copies for everybody.
8 Q Who by, do you know?
9 A Oh, when I worked at Nappleton there was a
10 policy I initiated, because at the time I was working
11 at Nappleton, and we had it.
12 Q So at Nappleton you initiated a separate13 Rescission Agreement?
14 A Correct.
15 Q What was your purpose for doing that?
16 A Because I wanted customers to understand
17 that they do not own this car when they leave there.
18 In other words, it was really stating to the customer
19 that they understood until financing was obtained,
20 you're not the owner of the car.
21 Q All right. Now, my question on Exhibit
22 Number 4, how is this presented to the customer for
23 their signature?24 Let's start with the front -- I should say
25 the first page of Exhibit 4. Obviously, this is a
40
1 reduction of the size, because the original is
2 bigger, seventeen inches long, and all that stuff?
3 A Usually what I do, I'll take a contract,
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4 and I usually have my pen with me, and I'll tell the
5 customer --
6 Q Don't mark on that.
7 A Are you buying a 2000 Kia Sportage, and
8 I'll say this is the correct car you're buying? I
9 will say you're financing nineteen thousand eighty
10 dollars fourteen cents. Your current interest rate
11 is seventeen point oh seven. This is going to be
12 your finance charge. This is the combination of the
13 two charges here (Indicating). I explain what that
14 is.
15 Then I explain with the down payment,
16 whatever that is, this is the total you pay for the
17 car, if you pay the contract out exactly the way it's
18 written (Indicating).
19 Q You're pointing to the total sales price,
20 the Truth-In-Lending area?
21 A The total boxes. You have sixty payments
22 of blah, blah, blah, beginning -- usually most23 contracts are forty-five days, so I'll say forty-five
24 days, and this is going to be the date of your first
25 payment. This is your sales taxes. This is what I
41
1 explain.
2 Then I go down here, and explain this here
3 is -- whatever the down payment is. If there's a
4 rebate, we'll say this is the rebate. If there's
5 cash down, this is cash down, and I total that out.6 Then I'll explain this is the tire and battery charge
7 (Indicating).
8 Q What you're doing then is going down all
9 the --
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Wait a minute. You're going over all the
12 numbers printed on Exhibit 4, is that correct?
13 A Correct, because it's the contract.
14 Q I understand that. What, if anything, do
15 you go over with them in terms of the --
16 A Well, it depends --17 Q Wait a minute.
18 MR. DUFFY: You have to let him finish the
19 question.
20 BY MR. INGALSBE:
21 Q What, if anything, do you tell them
22 regarding the preprinted portions that appear at the
23 top of the contract, and appear on the right-hand
24 side, if anything?
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25 A If anything is printed, like for instance
42
1 here, the name --
2 Q That's typed. I'm talking about the
3 preprinted portions. Do you understand what I'm
4 saying?
5 A Okay. I understand. I do not read the
6 entire contract to the customer.
7 Q I didn't ask you that. I'm asking what, if
8 anything, do you go over with the preprinted forms,
9 if anything?
10 A If there's credit life, I go over this.
11 Q If there is, you do. If there isn't, you
12 don't?
13 A No, I don't.
14 Q There's preprinted portions. This happens
15 to be the second page of Exhibit 4, but in the16 original it's on the front page?
17 A Correct, correct.
18 Q Looking at the preprinted portion, this
19 says; "No Cooling Off Period"?
20 A I go over that.
21 Q Tell me what you go over, everything?
22 A I just explain --
23 Q Take a look at Page 2 of Exhibit 4.
24 Looking at the bottom of Page 2 of Exhibit 4,
25 preprinted portion, what, if anything, do you discuss
43
1 with the customer?
2 A Okay. I explain that we did not solicit
3 you off premises. You came here to buy the car, so
4 there's no cooling off period. In other words, no
5 buyer's remorse. If we get the deal financed, then
6 the deal is yours.
7 Q Is that how you explain the no cooling off
8 period?9 A Basically. I explain that if we get the
10 deal financed, and you sign this contract, then we
11 have the right, you know, to send the contract to the
12 bank, same thing.
13 Q Well, how long does it take, in your
14 experience, to get a deal financed?
15 A A special finance deal?
16 Q Yes.
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17 A It varies. It can be from one to ten
18 days. It varies.
19 Q In those one to ten days, there is a
20 cooling off period, the customer can cancel the deal,
21 can't they?
22 MR. DUFFY: Objection; calls for legal
23 opinion.
24 THE WITNESS: Right.
25
44
1 BY MR. INGALSBE:
2 Q Can they?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Are you adopting what he just said?
5 A I don't know. I don't know the law in
6 Florida.
7 Q In terms of West Palm AutoMart/Kia, between8 the time this customer takes delivery and the moment
9 in time that some lender down the road buys it,
10 whether it be a day or ten days later, can the
11 customer return the vehicle, according to your
12 dealership?
13 A Legally, I don't know that.
14 Q I didn't ask you legally.
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Have you ever seen a situation where Kia
17 has allowed a customer, in that one to ten-day period
18 of time, to return a car because it hasn't yet been19 bought by a lender?
20 A There have been circumstances.
21 Q What are those?
22 A A customer sometimes -- I had a customer
23 just recently. They had a death in the family, and
24 they explained they couldn't pay for the car. I
25 didn't want to shove the deal down the bank's throat.
45
1 Q So you rescinded the deal before it was2 bought?
3 A That would have been a bad situation.
4 Q Did you rescind the deal before it was
5 bought?
6 A Yes.
7 Q In addition, you say you do explain the no
8 cooling off period to customers?
9 A Yes.
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10 Q Verbally, to your customers?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do your employees do that?
13 A Yes, they do. I instruct that very strict.
14 Q We're out of this box, down to the next
15 box. It says; "How This Contract Can Be Changed".
16 What, if anything, do you discuss with the
17 customer about that box?
18 A I just explain that you're going to be
19 initialing this here. This explains -- sometimes I
20 ask the customer to read this, sometimes I don't.
21 Q Don't mark it. In any event, the second
22 box toward the bottom of Exhibit 4, which starts;
23 "How This Contract Can Be Changed", you obtain their
24 initials in that box, correct?
25 A Right.
461 Q Do you have a statement that you make to
2 them, verbally, about why they are initialing that?
3 A No.
4 Q You just ask them, initial here?
5 A No. I have usually asked them to read
6 that.
7 Q You do?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q But you don't go over what it means with
10 them?
11 A Sometimes I might, sometimes I don't.12 Q Tell me what it means?
13 A Basically, this box here is explaining to
14 the customer; "This contract contains the entire
15 agreement between you and us relating to this
16 contract. Any change to this contract must be in
17 writing, and we must sign it. No oral changes are
18 binding. If any part of this contract is not valid,
19 all other parts stay valid. We may delay or refrain
20 from enforcing any of our rights under this contract
21 without losing them. For example, we may extend the
22 time for making some payments, without extending the23 time for making others", et cetera, et cetera.
24 Under this contract, for example, we may
25 extend the time for making some payments because,
47
1 basically, this is dealing with the bank.
2 Q Well, what do you mean by that? I'm asking
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3 you. You just read that, and I can read it myself.
4 A Right.
5 Q My question to you is what, if anything, do
6 you tell the customer about what that box means?
7 A I explain basically -- because this
8 contract is going to the bank, banks have --
9 sometimes you may call into the bank, and decide that
10 you want to have an extension on your payment, or you
11 want to change, you know, things on your contract,
12 but the bank is the one that makes that decision. We
13 cannot make that decision for them.
14 Q Why do you have a financing license?
15 A Why?
16 Q Yes.
17 A I will assume --
18 MR. DUFFY: Don't assume. You know or you
19 don't know.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
21 BY MR. INGALSBE:22 Q The dealership has a financing license so
23 it can finance motor vehicles with customers, doesn't
24 it?
25 MR. DUFFY: Objection; calls for a legal
48
1 conclusion.
2 THE WIWTNESS: I don't know.
3 BY MR. INGALSBE:
4 Q You don't know that?5 A No.
6 Q You started out reading the first sentence,
7 which is how this contract can be changed. I'll
8 repeat it. "This contract contains the entire
9 agreement between you and us relating to this
10 contract".
11 That's what it says, doesn't it?
12 Now, if you've got a Bailment Agreement, or
13 a Rescission Agreement, then that's not true, that's
14 not a true statement, is it?
15 MR. DUFFY: Objection; calls for a legal16 opinion.
17 BY MR. INGALSBE:
18 Q No, it doesn't. I'm asking you.
19 A It calls for a legal opinion.
20 Q You don't know the answer to that question?
21 A No.
22 Q It says -- I'll read the sentence again,
23 and ask you a different question.
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24 "This contract contains the entire
25 agreement between you and us".
49
1 Us means the dealership, doesn't it?
2 A No, means who the contract is assigned to.
3 Q It's not assigned at the moment in time
4 that the buyer signs it, is it?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q Well, you do know, because you go and try
7 to get them to buy the contract?
8 A You want me to be honest, a lot of our
9 deals are contracts already assigned. I'm going from
10 my own experience, not somebody else's experience.
11 Q Most of the contracts are not assigned at
12 the time the buyer signs it, correct?
13 A That's incorrect.
14 Q What is incorrect?15 A Because since I've been at AutoMart/Kia, we
16 have different procedures. First of all, you're
17 sitting here buying the car. I'm putting the deal to
18 the bank. I'm on the computer. Seventy-five percent
19 of the cars delivered at AutoMart/Kia now, we know
20 the bank is right there before the customers leave.
21 Q You mean the bank is there, present?
22 A No, computers, computers. I can get on the
23 computer with Household, AmFirst, Triad, and get a
24 deal done during the time you're sitting out there.
25 Q They don't condition --
50
1 A You don't understand. I'm sitting on the
2 computer, netting the deal, and getting my call back
3 right then and there. So by the time these people
4 walk in Finance, their deal is done.
5 Q And out of every hundred deals --
6 A Seventy-five, seventy-five percent, and I'll
7 stand by that. Don't confuse me with the procedures
8 before, okay. It's a different procedure.9 Q No --
10 A That's why they hired me.
11 Q What you just testified to, it doesn't
12 matter. It's your testimony, under oath, whatever?
13 A I understand.
14 Q Then why did you tell me before that the
15 parameters of getting a deal bought is between one
16 and ten days?
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17 A Because every deal is different. Now, you
18 asked me a generic question, how long would I feel it
19 takes time to get a deal, and I'm saying one to ten
20 days, but from my collected experience of what I can
21 do, is totally a different situation, because first
22 of all, I have a lot of experience with secondary
23 financing.
24 That's all I've done all my life. I work
25 with these banks on a day-by-day basis. I can pick
51
1 up a phone, and call the bank when the customer is
2 sitting there, and negotiate.
3 Q I understand. I know you can.
4 A Difference, big difference.
5 Q And based upon your picking up the phone
6 and negotiating, do you do that with every customer
7 that comes in?8 A I try to do as many as I can.
9 Q Are you sitting next to the Business
10 Manager?
11 A I'm there almost six days a week.
12 Q Are you sitting next to your Business
13 Manager?
14 A They have nothing to do with getting deals
15 bought.
16 Q I know. They have to get the customer's
17 signature on these forms?
18 A Correct.19 Q Where are you when they're getting the
20 customers' signatures on the form?
21 A Back and forth. I'm moving around. I try
22 to get involved in the deals as much as I can.
23 Q Are you in their office?
24 A Yeah, I'm in their offices a lot.
25 Q How many deals, when they're closing a deal
52
1 with any particular customer, out of every hundred,2 how often are you there when they're doing it?
3 A I can say maybe twenty, twenty-five percent
4 of the time. I'm not there that much, but I kind of
5 know -- I kind of supervise -- I do supervise my
6 Business Managers.
7 Q Getting back to that statement; "This
8 contract contains the entire agreement between you
9 and us", and we know that [Consumer]'s deal wasn't
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10 bought?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Well, it wasn't.
13 A I say --
14 MR. DUFFY: Wait. Move to strike. You're
15 supposed to ask questions, let him answer them.
16 You're not testifying.
17 BY MR. INGALSBE:
18 Q It's a correct statement to say that
19 [Consumer]'s deal wasn't bought, right?
20 A I was not there at the time.
21 Q And every Retail Installment deal, on those
22 twenty-five percent that you say are not bought at
23 the time the customer signs, then what is the word us
24 referring to; the dealership, or a bank that has not
25 bought the deal yet?
531 A I don't know.
2 Q Now, tell me what else that you explain, if
3 anything, to the customer?
4 At the bottom of the Retail Installment
5 Contract, just below How This Contract Can Be
6 Changed, the next thing down from that says; "Notice
7 To The Buyer".
8 What, if anything, do you and your Business
9 Managers discuss with the customer about that
10 sentence?
11 A Basically, we just ask them do you12 understand everything we've explained to you? If you
13 do, please sign here.
14 Q And so you don't really verbally go over
15 this stuff at the bottom, do you?
16 A No.
17 Q So you point to where -- do you highlight
18 the lines --
19 A Ninety percent of the time it's
20 highlighted.
21 Q What color? Does it matter?
22 A Various colors.23 Q Now, at the time the buyer signs, does the
24 dealership sign while the customer is still on the
25 premises?
54
1 A Sometimes, sometimes they don't.
2 Q Who has the signatory authority?
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3 A When it goes to the bank, I do.
4 Q After the bank has approved the deal?
5 A Correct.
6 Q So my question to you is when the buyer is
7 still on the premises, and hasn't yet taken delivery
8 of that vehicle, spot delivery of the vehicle, does
9 anyone sign the Retail Installment Contract, on
10 behalf of the dealership?
11 A In my experience, I do, and I can't
12 speak -- I cannot speak for other people.
13 Q While the customer is still on the
14 premises, you say you sign it?
15 A Yes, I always do.
16 Q Why is that?
17 A I just do it because I've always done
18 that. Since my buy here/pay here days, I've always
19 signed the contracts.
20 Q What does that signify, if anything?
21 A Honestly, I really don't know. I always22 sign the contracts.
23 Q Did somebody tell you they wanted you to?
24 A I'm explaining this to you, so I sign it.
25 I never used to sign this box, because I didn't have
55
1 the right to sign it, but now, as Finance Director,
2 but prior to being Finance Director, I never signed
3 the final box, because usually the Controller or
4 someone else, they are empowered to do that.5 Q What is the final box?
6 A That's when the contract goes to the bank.
7 The bank won't have a contract unless this box is
8 signed.
9 Q What box?
10 A The box at the bottom.
11 Q What is that box entitled, if you know?
12 A I do know.
13 Q I'm asking?
14 A Either we're giving the bank recourse, or
15 nonrecourse on the loan.16 Q For the record, I want you to tell me what
17 that box is, and if you want to read it, I want you
18 to read it, what you're talking about. He has it in
19 his hands.
20 MR. DUFFY: You're talking about this box
21 here (Indicating)?
22 THE WITNESS: Which box?
23 MR. DUFFY: The one you said you don't
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24 sign, the one the seller signs, is that the box?
25 THE WITNESS: I never sign this. I sign
56
1 right here, as the Finance Director, allowing the
2 bank to either we're going to have recourse,
3 nonrecourse, or limited recourse (Indicating).
4 BY MR. INGALSBE:
5 Q There are no Recourse Contracts in Florida,
6 are there?
7 MR. DUFFY: That's what it says.
8 THE WITNESS: We have to mark these.
9 BY MR. INGALSBE:
10 Q Please, just listen to my question.
11 A I'm explaining it.
12 Q Can I ask a question without you
13 interrupting?
14 A No problem.15 Q Have you ever, in your experience -- you're
16 only experienced in Florida in the auto deals, right?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Not in New York, right?
19 A No, no.
20 Q Have you ever seen a Recourse Contract?
21 A No.
22 Q That's right. So when you were telling me
23 that you never sign the bottom --
24 A No, no, let's go back. You misunderstood
25 what I said; prior to being Finance Director. I have
57
1 the authority now to sign the box. The banks will
2 not accept that --
3 Q What box? Stop it, please. The record is
4 completely muddled, and I don't want it to be that
5 way.
6 MR. DUFFY: You have to help him, Ray.
7 BY MR. INGALSBE:
8 Q I want you to take a look at Exhibit 4, and9 you show me which box you sign, and which one you
10 don't, and I want you to point to it.
11 MR. DUFFY: At what point in time?
12 BY MR. INGALSBE:
13 Q When the customer is on the lot?
14 A Okay.
15 Q When the customer is still --
16 A I'll tell --
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17 Q Wait a minute.
18 MR. DUFFY: Let him finish the question.
19 BY MR. INGALSBE:
20 Q When the customer is in the Finance Office,
21 at that moment?
22 A Correct.
23 Q What, if any, box do you sign?
24 A I've always customarily signed this box
25 (Indicating).
58
1 Q You're pointing to the one I've
2 highlighted?
3 A Correct.
4 Q That highlighted one says seller signs. Do
5 you see that, it says seller signs. Is that where
6 you sign it?
7 A No, I sign it over here (Indicating).8 Q Okay.
9 A I never sign over here. I sign over here
10 (Indicating).
11 Q Okay. Just for the record, Exhibit 4, the
12 second page of Exhibit 4, at the bottom, I'm pointing
13 to it, it says; "Seller signs", on the left-hand
14 side. There's a line for, presumably, a signature.
15 Do you agree?
16 A This also says; "Other owner signs --"
17 Q I'm looking at -- please, I'm only asking a
18 question.19 It says; "Seller signs". You don't sign
20 that?
21 A No.
22 Q It says date. Do you insert a date?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q You do, by hand?
25 A Uh-huh.
59
1 Q Yes?2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q Then it says by?
4 A That's where I sign.
5 Q That's where you sign?
6 A Correct, I put my title.
7 Q Which is what?
8 A Finance Director.
9 Q Directly under that there's another box,
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10 and that box says; "Seller assigns its interest in
11 this contract to", and this one is blank?
12 A Right.
13 Q Do you ever sign that box?
14 A I always sign that box after I send the
15 contract to the bank.
16 Q After the bank has approved the deal?
17 A Correct.
18 Q After they've bought the deal?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And at the very bottom, that's the
21 assignment box?
22 A No, the assignment box is here
23 (Indicating).
24 Q It's the same box?
25 A This is the box it prints on, right here.
601 It prints right here (Indicating).
2 Q What prints?
3 A Right here.
4 Q What is printed on there?
5 A In other words, if, for instance, a bank is
6 assigned --
7 Q Please don't go into that. Is the bank's
8 name printed in there?
9 A It would be printed right there
10 (Indicating).
11 Q You're pointing to a line where it says the12 contract is assigned to, and then the bank is printed
13 there, right?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Then you sign?
16 A Right here (Indicating).
17 Q The very, very bottom line, which says
18 seller, a place to sign, and by, and there's a place
19 to sign, and it says title, there's a place --
20 A Correct.
21 Q So you sign twice; once before the bank --
22 A Only if I close the deal. It's different23 if someone else closed the deal. They have that
24 discretion there.
25 Q What do you mean, they have what
61
1 discretion? I'm talking about -- let's go back,
2 please.
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3 A We're talking about --
4 Q No, you have two.
5 MR. DUFFY: Listen. He's asking you
6 questions. You're telling him more than he wants to
7 know, and then you confuse him. If he asks you where
8 do you sign, point to the box, stop, okay?
9 THE WITNESS: I got you.
10 BY MR. INGALSBE:
11 Q You have two Finance Managers that work for
12 you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What discretion, if any, do they have about
15 the signing where it says; "Seller signs", the
16 highlighted portions that are here?
17 Do they ever sign?
18 A In my department, none. They sign right
19 here (Indicating).
20 Q They sign by?
21 A Correct. Wherever they sign -- I mean,22 each one of them -- I've always seen the signatures
23 there (Indicating).
24 Q Do they always sign?
25 A Yes.
62
1 Q Since when, you started there?
2 A Since I've been there.
3 Q Do you instruct them to sign?
4 A Yes.5 Q Why?
6 A Because they're delivering a car to you.
7 They went over this contract with you. Somebody has
8 to be responsible.
9 Q Responsible for what?
10 A Explaining the contract.
11 Q You mean if their signature doesn't appear
12 on Page 2, then they're not responsible for
13 explaining the contract?
14 A I'm not saying that. I'm saying I feel I
15 sign this here because I just explained things to16 you, so I want to sign there.
17 Q And the signing signifies that you've
18 explained the contract to the customer?
19 A For me. I mean, this is what I've always
20 done all my life, since I've been in Florida, with
21 the contract.
22 If I sat down and explained something to
23 you, and put my signature on there, I put my
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24 signature there because I explained it to you.
25 Everybody has their own procedures.
63
1 Q Who else, besides you, has signature
2 authority on bank contracts?
3 A The Controller.
4 Q You said his name before?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does Mr. Tanner, do you know?
7 A I've never seen him sign a contract.
8 Q I just asked you; do you know?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q Does Angie Melson?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Now, take a look at what I've marked
13 Exhibit Number 5.14 Incidentally, going back, not to Exhibit 4,
15 but let me ask you this question; are you familiar
16 with the Truth-in-Lending Act?
17 A Not all the details.
18 Q Well, you are familiar with the
19 Truth-In-Lending Disclosures in the box on the front
20 page of Exhibit 4?
21 A That I am.
22 Q Federal Truth-In-Lending Disclosures,
23 right?
24 A Yes.25 Q You knew that was there?
64
1 A Yes.
2 Q You knew the Federal Law requires that to
3 be there?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Other than that, do you know anything about
6 the law?
7 A Not the whole law.8 Q Have you ever heard of Florida's Motor
9 Vehicle Retail Sales Finance Act?
10 A No.
11 Q So the answer to my next question, do you
12 know anything about that act?
13 A No.
14 Q Take a look at Exhibit Number 5, and tell
15 me what that is?
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16 A This is a Bailment Agreement.
17 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
18 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 5 for
19 identification).
20 BY MR. INGALSBE:
21 Q Is that part of the Power Pack?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And what, if anything, do you and your
24 Managers say to the customer when they get them to
25 sign Exhibit 5?
65
1 A Usually, what I say, I'm not going to speak
2 for them, because I don't know, what I usually
3 explain is that we're spot delivering this car, based
4 on you do not own this car until the bank has
5 approved this loan. In other words, we may call you
6 to bring the car back.7 Q Do you ever say we're providing the car as
8 a courtesy to you?
9 A No, I don't say that.
10 Q You don't. So they willingly sign that, is
11 that correct?
12 A Yes, they do.
13 Q Do you go over any of the print?
14 A No. I'm going to be honest, I don't go
15 through the whole legalism. I summarize it by
16 explaining to the customers I want you to understand
17 we're spot delivering this car, based on the fact all18 the information you provided to us is truthful, and a
19 bank will accept the contract, and we get the deal
20 approved. Other than that, you don't own the car.
21 Q Now, since you've been there, you've used a
22 Rescission Agreement in addition to Exhibit 5?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you have them sign each one at roughly
25 the same time, because they mean the same thing?
661 A Correct.
2 Q You do?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q What do you do, put them next to one
5 another?
6 A Yes. I do it because I don't want a
7 customer coming back -- I've been down this road
8 myself. I don't want a customer coming back, saying
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9 you told me that I owned this car because, you know,
10 you go home, you take this car, I want peple to
11 understand, when they walk out that door it's subject
12 to we obtaining financing for you, because so many
13 things go wrong, a customer mislead on the
14 application. There's so many things go wrong.
15 Q Are there any penalty provisions in the
16 Rescission Agreement or the Bailment Agreement?
17 A Yes, there are.
18 Q What are they?
19 A There's a mileage charge and damage
20 charge. In other words, if you take the car --
21 MR. DUFFY: He knows what that means.
22 BY MR. INGALSBE:
23 Q Do you have a rental charge as well, fifty
24 dollars a day, twenty-five cents a mile?
25 A I believe so, but in all honesty --
67
1 Q You don't remember?
2 A Because I've never had to enforce those.
3 Q Now, do you know when Exhibit 4, I should
4 say any Retail Installment Contract is presented to
5 the buyer, for the buyer's signature, who is the
6 creditor?
7 A Well, in my opinion -- I mean, in my
8 experience, I know because usually I'm netting the
9 deal right then and there, but every situation is
10 different.11 Q Who is the creditor?
12 MR. DUFFY: I don't understand the
13 question.
14 BY MR. INGALSBE:
15 Q The bank down the road, that hasn't bought
16 it yet, is that the creditor?
17 A That's my understanding.
18 Q Have you ever read the --
19 A No, I have not.
20 Q I'm going to have you read it now. Take a
21 look at the top of Exhibit 4, over here22 (Indicating).
23 What does that say?
24 A Buyer.
25 Q Buyer and co-buyer, name and address,
68
1 right?
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2 A Uh-huh.
3 Q Yes?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What does it say right here (Indicating)?
6 A Creditor, seller.
7 Q And then the creditor, seller's name is
8 who?
9 A Tanner West Palm Beach AutoMart/Kia.
10 Q Does that surprise you?
11 A Yes, it does, honestly.
12 Q Look at what I've marked Exhibit 6. Tell
13 me what that is.
14 A That's an agreement to provide insurance.
15 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
16 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 6 for
17 identification).
18 BY MR. INGALSBE:
19 Q Is that one of the forms that has to be
20 signed at F & I?21 A Yes, it is.
22 Q Is that part of the Power Pack, by the way?
23 A No.
24 Q Take a look at what I've marked Exhibit
25 Number 7. Tell me what that is.
69
1 A That's an affidavit that a customer is
2 stating that they have insurance.
3 (Thereupon, the document referred to was4 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 7 for
5 identification).
6 BY MR. INGALSBE:
7 Q Exhibit 7 happens to be two pages. Is that
8 the back of Exhibit 7?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q Take a look at Exhibit Number 8. Even
11 though I've highlighted it, forget the highlighting.
12 What is Exhibit Number 8?
13 A That's an Odometer Statement, stating the
14 miles at the time of sale.15 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
16 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 8 for
17 identification).
18 BY MR. INGALSBE:
19 Q I did highlight this, thinking that maybe I
20 would have an employee that had been there at the
21 time, but has anybody advised you of how thirty-eight
22 hundred thirty-five miles got to be on this vehicle
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23 before she bought it?
24 A Not on this one.
25 Q Take a look at Exhibit Number 9. Tell me
70
1 what that is?
2 A That's a reassignment, reassigning the
3 title.
4 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
5 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 9 for
6 identification).
7 BY MR. INGALSBE:
8 Q And this is, again, F & I forms?
9 A Yes, these are standard forms.
10 Q Motor Vehicle Dealer Title Reassignment
11 Supplement. What is being reassigned, if this was a
12 new car?
13 A Oh, I don't know.14 Q You don't?
15 A No.
16 Q Is this just a form everybody has to sign?
17 A Yes, it's just a form of reassignment of
18 title. It's a standard form that we print out.
19 Q Let me ask you a question; if a title has
20 never been issued on a brand new vehicle, why would
21 you need a Title Reassignment Supplement, if you
22 know?
23 A I don't know. I just don't know.
24 Q Take a look at Exhibit Number 10. Tell me25 what that is.
71
1 A That's when the customer has a tag they're
2 transferring.
3 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
4 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 10 for
5 identification).
6 BY MR. INGALSBE:
7 Q Is that an F & I form?8 A Yes, it is.
9 Q And F & I, for the record, is Finance and
10 Insurance, right?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Take a look at Exhibit 11. What is it?
13 A That's stating that you're going to
14 transfer your tag.
15 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
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16 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 11 for
17 identification).
18 BY MR. INGALSBE:
19 Q Is that done in F & I?
20 A I mean, F & I has them sign the form.
21 Q That's what I'm saying.
22 A But it doesn't do the transfer.
23 Q I apologize for the question. I
24 understand. 12, take a look at 12. I think it's a
25 four-page exhibit. Yes.
72
1 Take a look at 12, and what is it?
2 A It's a worksheet that the salesman works
3 off of.
4 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
5 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 12 for
6 identification).7 BY MR. INGALSBE:
8 Q The salesman does?
9 A Well, the customer and the salesman
10 together.
11 Q Right. Is this brought to you, Exhibit 12
12 brought to you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As a result of you receiving -- strike
15 that.
16 What, if anything, does F & I do with
17 Exhibit 12?18 A Basically, you just review it. You want to
19 get a general picture of the customer. This is so
20 when I'm ready to net the deal to the bank, I have
21 some kind of knowledge to go off of.
22 If a person has worked on a job less than
23 six months, I can put in some of the previous
24 information. If they lived at an address less than a
25 certain amount. It's a worksheet.
731 Q Ordinarily, this is the salesman's job, not
2 yours?
3 A Right. It's something we in F & I require
4 so we can work with the dealer.
5 Q Now, when a customer signs a credit ap --
6 let me mark this 13.
7 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
8 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 13 for
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9 identification).
10 BY MR. INGALSBE:
11 Q When a customer -- by the way, identify
12 Exhibit 13. It's a credit application, right?
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q Yes?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q It's a West Palm AutoMart/Kia credit
17 application?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q It's one of their forms?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Using this credit ap, how many -- strike
22 that.
23 With the customer's approval, because the
24 customer signs the bottom?
25 A Uh-huh.
74
1 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, that allows the
2 dealership to pull her credit, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Does this credit ap, Exhibit 13, allow
5 anybody else to pull the credit?
6 A Yes. We can share the information with any
7 of the entities that we own.
8 Q That wasn't the question. Does Exhibit
9 Number 13 allow any other entity to pull her credit
10 ap?11 A Yes.
12 Q You've already pulled it?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why would somebody else have --
15 A The banks --
16 Q Why don't you just transmit --
17 A I'm going to explain --
18 Q Hold on.
19 MR. DUFFY: Answer the question.
20 BY MR. INGALSBE:
21 Q You have the credit ap, it's in front of22 you. You pulled it. Why don't you transmit what
23 you've pulled to the proposed lending source?
24 A We don't have the procedure to do that.
25 Q You have a fax machine?
75
1 MR. DUFFY: I'm going to object to your
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2 question. You're asking a legal question. Ask it
3 again.
4 BY MR. INGALSBE:
5 Q No, no, you can transmit any information by
6 fax machine to a proposed lender, correct, right?
7 MR. DUFFY: Theoretically, or legally?
8 THE WITNESS: Theoretically. It's not set
9 up that way. It's not set up. The banks pull their
10 own credit. They always do. Banks will not rely on
11 our credit.
12 BY MR. INGALSBE:
13 Q My next question to you is if you shop it
14 to four different lending sources, do they each pull
15 the credit?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you tell the customer --
18 A Yes, we do.
19 Q -- that the proposed lenders are going to
20 pull the credit?21 A Yes.
22 Q What do you say?
23 A Your loan is -- we're going to shop your
24 loan to various lenders until somebody approves the
25 loan. This is why -- I'm going to explain this, even
76
1 though I shouldn't have to explain it. I'm going to
2 explain it.
3 This is why CBI, or the credit bureaus had4 a problem. They lump it as one. If you're buying a
5 car at one time, within a thirty-day period, you're
6 not penalized for the credit being pulled.
7 Q What do you mean, you're not penalized?
8 A In the old days, every time you pulled your
9 credit it was a whole different process.
10 Q It shows up as an inquiry on your credit
11 history, correct; do you know that?
12 A I don't know that.
13 Q So what are you telling me? If you don't
14 know that, how has it changed?15 A Articles I've read.
16 Q Say again?
17 A Articles I've read.
18 Q What has it changed to?
19 A Well, a lot of people were complaining
20 about the fact their credits were being pulled when
21 they were shopping for a car or house. So the credit
22 bureaus do not penalize you anymore for pulling
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23 multiple credits.
24 Q Take a look at what I've marked as Exhibit
25 Number 14. What is it?
77
1 A It's a We Owe.
2 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
3 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 14 for
4 identification).
5 BY MR. INGALSBE:
6 Q I think I know what it is. Is that
7 something F & I gets them to sign?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And who tells you that nothing is owed, and
10 nothing is promised, does the Sales Manager?
11 A The Sales Manager or the salesman.
12 Q Take a look at what I've marked as Exhibit
13 Number 15?14 A That's the credit bureau.
15 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
16 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15 for
17 identification).
18 BY MR. INGALSBE:
19 Q That is the credit bureau?
20 A Correct.
21 Q This is [Consumer]'s credit bureau
22 report that was pulled on the date of the sale, 7/22?
23 A Correct.
24 Q I've highlighted, it starts out EFX, Beacon25 ninety-six. What does that mean?
78
1 A That's a credit Beacon score. In other
2 words, it's a score that is used by Equifax.
3 Q And what, if anything, do you, as Finance
4 Director -- how do you interpret that, or what do you
5 do with that?
6 A If I saw a score like this, I would
7 recommend the deal.8 Q And what is it about this that causes you
9 to say that?
10 A Bank criterias. Every bank has policies,
11 and this Beacon score falls within every one of my
12 banks.
13 Q What Beacon score is that?
14 A Five ninety-four, that would fall in every
15 bank I deal with.
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16 Q What is the cutoff, as far as you're
17 concerned, five fifty?
18 A No. I would say as low as five and a
19 quarter.
20 Q Five and a quarter, okay.
21 A I never saw this. Let me take a quick
22 glance. This would have been --
23 MR. DUFFY: No, that's okay. There's no
24 question. You answered it.
25
79
1 BY MR. INGALSBE:
2 Q Take a look at what I marked 16. Can you
3 identify that?
4 A I believe that's an MFO.
5 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
6 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 16 for7 identification).
8 BY MR. INGALSBE:
9 Q A Certificate of Origin, and it originated
10 in Stone Mountain AutoMart/Kia.
11 Is that associated with West Palm Beach
12 AutoMart/Kia?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, when a lender rejects a deal, you're
15 trying to get them to buy it, and they just won't buy
16 it, what is the procedure when a deal hasn't been
17 bought by a third party?18 A If I get one of those faxes, usually what I
19 do is I get back to the phone --
20 Q I'm not going to introduce these, because I
21 didn't want to talk about these.
22 Do you want me to introduce these, to talk
23 about a decline?
24 MR. DUFFY: It's your deposition.
25 THE WITNESS: What I do --
801 BY MR. INGALSBE:
2 Q Take a look at Exhibit 17, and tell me what
3 it is?
4 A It's a decline from Household Finance.
5 (Thereupon, the document referred to was
6 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 17 for
7 identification).
8 BY MR. INGALSBE:
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9 Q What does that mean?
10 A Okay. The deal was physically netted over
11 to the bank. In other words, the bank was asked to
12 look at this deal.
13 Q How is that done?
14 A I don't know how --
15 Q How is it done today?
16 A By computer.
17 Q And Household then looks at it on their
18 screen or whatever?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Do they telephone first, before they mail
21 you the decline?
22 A No.
23 Q They'll just send the decline?
24 A It will come right through the fax.
25 Q Once it's declined, and you can't get the
81
1 thing bought anywhere --
2 A Stop there. Usually, if I had netted the
3 deal to Household, I would feel there was merit.
4 What I do, when I get a decline, I get back on the
5 phone, and I try to overcome the decline.
6 Q Let me give you the hypothetical. Say you
7 try and try and try, they still say no.
8 What then happens?
9 A Then I shop to another bank.
10 Q Forget that, say all the banks say no.11 What do you do next?
12 A I inform the Sales Manager I cannot get the
13 deal bought.
14 Q What does the Sales Manager do in turn?
15 A The Sales Manager would make a decision to
16 get the car back.
17 Q Are you and your Finance Managers ever
18 involved in --
19 A No, no.
20 Q Wait a minute.
21 MR. DUFFY: He's going to ask you have you22 ever been involved in a murder. That's why you
23 should wait.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I shouldn't jump
25 the gun.
82
1 BY MR. INGALSBE:
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2 Q Are you involved in trying to refinance the
3 customer?
4 A Whether we got the deal done or not done?
5 Q Not done, the deal is not done on this
6 contract, the first contract, right.
7 Now you call the customer back. Can you
8 then try to recontract them, at different terms, that
9 may be more comfortable with a bank?
10 A That doesn't make sense.
11 Q No, no, I didn't ask whether it makes
12 sense.
13 A No, I wouldn't do that.
14 Q You wouldn't do it. To your knowledge, has
15 West Palm AutoMart/Kia ever brought somebody back in
16 to say this first contract was unacceptable, your
17 credit was not approved, here is another Retail
18 Installment Agreement we would like you to sign, with
19 different terms that we think we can get bought?
20 A Okay. First of all, usually what you would21 do, if you get a condition back from the bank, you
22 call the customer in to resign. There's a
23 difference.
24 Q There you go, not a flat decline?
25 A Right. A flat decline, you want your car
83
1 back.
2 Q On a condition, however, you can present
3 them with a second contract, with different terms, is4 that correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Has that happened?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How often?
9 A That can happen often because, I mean, if
10 you didn't have a deal approved when the person drove
11 out the lot, and the bank conditions the loan, you
12 call the customer back in, and you present the new
13 terms to them.
14 Sometimes the payments might be higher,15 sometimes it's information you don't know. Whatever
16 the conditions.
17 Q But the terms have changed?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Does that happen what, ten, fifteen times a
20 month?
21 A Yeah, I would say so.
22 Q How often do you have to repo a vehicle,
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23 have the customer return the car because they've been
24 declined?
25 A Say I gave out the information to the Sales
84
1 Manager, usually they'll contact that customer, and
2 say ma'am, we couldn't get the deal done, bring the
3 car back.
4 Q How often does that happen?
5 A In my experience, since I've been at
6 AutoMart/Kia, maybe four, five times a month.
7 Q Four or five times a month?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 Q Yes?
10 A Yes.
11 Q The Power Pack, and the other State forms
12 that you have the customer sign?
13 A Uh-huh.14 Q Are those held in the deal file, and not
15 processed with the State until a third party buyer
16 buys the deal?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Once a deal -- once a customer either
19 returns the car, or the dealership goes out and
20 repossesses the vehicle, what happens to that vehicle
21 then?
22 A Okay. Usually the vehicle will be
23 restocked in. A lot of times it's discounted, if
24 there's miles on the vehicle. Everyone is a25 different circumstance.
85
1 Q But they're cleaned up, and put back on the
2 lot?
3 A Usually a decision has to be made, because
4 sometimes the cars come back very rough.
5 Q Okay. Are they cleaned up, and put back
6 out for retail sale?
7 A Yes.8 Q Let me look at what you brought, and I'm
9 done, as far as I know, unless you have questions for
10 him, go ahead.
11 (Whereupon, a recess was taken from